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Thursday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:51:40 AM EST
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I've got nothing for you yet. So tell me what is going on.

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    Thursday Morning Open Thread | 202 comments (202 topical)
    One more time (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:55:47 AM EST
    I police my threads as I see fit.

    No insults of me period. No more warning. first insult - you are permanently banned from my threads.

    No repeating falsehoods. If you have your falsehood deleted and insist on repeating it, you will be banned from my threads.

    No complaining in a thread. Write an e-mail. If you complain in a thread, you will be banned permanently from my threads.

    Off topic comments will be deleted. If you persist in posting off topic comments, you will be permanently banned from my threads.

    Understand, these rules are for my threads only. I will have no say on Jeralyn or TChris' threads.

    If you do not like the way I run my threads, then do not comment in my threads.

    This is not open to public debate. If you want to tell me something about this issues, then write me an e-mail.

    Yes, Please Read BTD's rules (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:42:21 AM EST
    BTD controls his threads. If he bans someone it means they may not comment on his threads. He has my support in this.

    Parent
    I Remember Back During The Primaries (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:26:36 AM EST
    when commenters were able to write truthful opinions about the candidates without the fear of being banned/delegated.  Personally, I stopped lurking and started commenting because in most other mediums, I was witness to total sellout to a particular candidate.  The so-called "news" media had transformed into nothing more than a collection of advocates.  I was appalled at what I was seeing.

    In this medium, if a reader disagreed with what he was reading, he was able to state his opinion.  That's the democratization of the news provided by the blogs, and I'm sure one of the most important factors in their success.  We no longer have to be passive sponges, either soaking up everything we read, or having to choose to go elsewhere if we don't agree.  During my time commenting, I was fortunate enough to get some of this off my chest, and on occasion, find a sympathetic audience.

    Alot of what has gone on lately, however, is members being banned or deleted for stating opinions that contradict the FP's opinions.  Many are not insulting or factually incorrect.  Since the time that we decided to become an advocate, critical opinions seem to be much less welcome, thus "holding feet to the fire" is more peripheral than it used to be.  I find it increasingly difficult to support this group.  Just as we refused to be 'whipped' into conformance during the primaries, we will probably be just as stubborn now they we are in the GE season.  I am not debating the rules, only lementing that they don't seem to be applied consistantly.

    So, I'm left again to examine my options.  Whatever I decide, it was a great ride for awhile.


    Parent

    I've been away for a while (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by Plutonium Page on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:22:26 PM EST
    What can't we complain about?

    Can I complain about going to the gym?

    Parent

    Polls again! (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:59:28 AM EST
    According to CNN Obama is losing ground in FL OH and PA. They say the loss in FL is due to independants that are now leaning towards McCain by 5 points. I hope this doesn't drive Obama even further to the right!

    I would have really thought that leading up to the convention, he would have used this time to seriously work at solidifying the Dem base. Where are these millions of new followers? They don't appear to be showing up in any of the polls yet.

    I wonder how many (none / 0) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:03:02 AM EST
    of those potential new followers are even on the radar screens of pollsters?


    Parent
    Well, that's one way to look at it (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:08:10 AM EST
    In reality, Quinnipiac says that Obama remains ahead in all three states.

    Not by much in OH or FL, but Kerry lost both. Florida was supposed to be a lock for McCain. Not so much, it seems.

    Parent

    FL is a lock for McCain (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:11:47 AM EST
    Book it.

    Parent
    I think so too. (none / 0) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:14:30 AM EST
    and if Obama trys to take a state by picking Kaine McCain might pick Ridge and PEN would be gone too.
    that is if he could get away with it.

    Parent
    Ridge wouldn't really help him in PA (none / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:16:50 AM EST
    He hasn't even won an election since 1998.

    Parent
    I dont think so (none / 0) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:18:55 AM EST


    Parent
    Well, he's yet to spend a dime (none / 0) (#8)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:15:48 AM EST
    so that's apparently what he thinks.

    To me it looks at least as competitive as Virginia, and frankly I like Obama's chances in Florida there better than in Ohio.

    Parent

    totally opposite (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:33:27 AM EST
    Ohio Obama can win.

    Parent
    My honest feeling is that Florida is (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:42:21 AM EST
    a more attractive long-term target. I think Obama can win there, and I'm glad he's trying.

    I wish he'd stop pouring money into Georgia, though.

    Parent

    Long term? (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:55:03 AM EST
    There's 90 days to the election.

    Parent
    And Q Poll says Obama's ahead for now (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:03:03 AM EST
    I don't see any reason for him to give up on the state.

    Parent
    he hasnt spent a dime and he is (none / 0) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:35:15 AM EST
    gaining.  what does that tell you?

    Parent
    The national numbers matter (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:40:58 AM EST
    You tell me why McCain should be behind in Virginia and Forida?

    Parent
    george (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:44:46 AM EST


    Parent
    How much? (none / 0) (#11)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:18:49 AM EST
    I think you're wrong.  Well -- I know you're wrong in the sense that Florida is clearly not a "lock" for McCain.  But I also think you're wrong that McCain will take Florida.  I think Obama will.

    Parent
    According to the Q poll, (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:22:32 AM EST
    everything is about the same as in the 2004 exit poll, but this time Obama is winning Hispanics instead of losing them.

    Parent
    Watch and learn (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:32:57 AM EST
    Lock.

    Parent
    Not a lock. (none / 0) (#24)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:37:00 AM EST
    How do you define "lock"?  I would say always ahead in the polls (like Obama nationally).  But McCain has been dropping in Florida polls and I believe most show them tied and some show Obama ahead.

    Parent
    I define a lock (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:39:01 AM EST
    as McCain will CERTAINLY win Florida.

    Parent
    Why is it (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:55:42 AM EST
    that the internet seems to attract certain people with a derangement sydrome where they hang on your every word to find things they can trash?

    I've seen this on ever list I'm on, from politics to pet health.  And I've never seen such behavior in "real life".

    Why is it that some people so vocally object to other people having their own opinions, but feel they can only do so while hiding behind their computers?

    So, so wierd. Please help me understand.

    I suspect (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:01:17 AM EST
    for the same reason a perfectly nice person can turn into a swerving cutting you off maniac when they get on the freeway and are anonymous.

    Parent
    So you're saying (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:05:04 AM EST
    that the only thing that ensures human decency is the lack of anonymity?

    Good analogy, btw.  

    Parent

    " lack of anonymity?" (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:56:55 AM EST
    yeah
    pretty much.

    Parent
    That's exactly it... (none / 0) (#60)
    by skuld1 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:36:57 AM EST
    <nt>

    Parent
    at least when it comes to internet message boards (none / 0) (#61)
    by skuld1 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:38:41 AM EST
    I guess we can't edit our posts here.  Wanted to clarify that I was only referring to internet message boards.

    Parent
    That was my thought, too (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by BernieO on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:06:39 PM EST
    But I think the fact that our culture tolerates much more disrespectful behavior, even to our president is also a factor. The media showed more deference to Richard Nixon even after it had become clear what he and his people had been up to than they ever showed Bill, Hillary, or Gore.

    I think the right wing attack machine has a lot to do with this change. It's ironic that so many of them claim to be devote Christians and deplore the crudity of our culture.

    I am voting for anonymity + a lowering of standards.

    Parent

    your are right (5.00 / 0) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:14:37 PM EST
    and Nixon got better treatment because he was not a democrat.

    Parent
    An infectious disease called.. (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:07:21 AM EST
    Keyboard Commando?

    Parent
    I've been wondering about this for a while (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:04:38 AM EST
    now too! It's amazing the irrational vitriol and hatred that gets spewed on the net towards people the perpetrators hardly even know!

    Parent
    Because Commenters Feel Safe Enough (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:01:17 AM EST
    To make provocative statements like this:

    If you cared about this country maybe you would have voted for someone who could win the GE?

    link

    Do you think it is wrong for people to object to other's opinions, and sometimes get into heated arguments? Are you advocating for no objections to others opinions? And why do you think that this only happens when "people are hiding behind their computers?

    There are people that say you should never discuss politics among casual acquaintances, or even friends (in real life). That is because heated arguments are likely to ensue.

    Parent

    LOL! (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:45:30 AM EST
    You think that's a flame?  That's hillarious.

    Parent
    It Is To Someone (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:54:39 AM EST
    Who cares about the country, and has another opinion than you do about the nominee. On the street, you could provoke blows with that statement. Try telling that to a vet who lost a limb for this country and likes Obama. It belongs with statements like you are unpatriotic for criticizing the war, a traitor, etc.

    It is no wonder you do not understand, if you think that  comments like that are benign and not provocative.

    Parent

    No point really... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by desertswine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:04:01 AM EST
    • Exxon Mobil has biggest profit ever at $11.68B - Jul 31 8:46 AM US/Eastern
    • Bush declares significant progress in Iraq war - Jul 31 8:42 AM US/Eastern

    I just thought it was interesting how these two headlines were juxtaposed this am. Just like that.

    Or conflicting views (none / 0) (#51)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:17:57 AM EST
    How about these two headlines for multiple personalities this morning. One from the Washington Post and one by the NY Times.

    U.S. Economy Grows at Healthy Pace in Quarter

    G.D.P. Grows at Tepid 1.9% Pace Despite Stimulus

    Parent

    About the "progress" in Iraq.... (none / 0) (#53)
    by EL seattle on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:25:12 AM EST
    Does anyone know of a website or organization that is regularly tracking the numbers of Iraqi refugees?  I've seen news stories about them (very occasionally) but I have no idea if any of them or many of them feel safe enough to return home to Iraq.  

    I'd think that one of the more accurate ways of measuring whether the "progress" is actually "significant" is to note the point at which Iraqi refugees start coming home at a rate that's comparable the the speed at which they fled.  But who's keeping track of that?

    Parent

    The Story Of The Refugees (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:35:25 AM EST
    seemd to only be important when they were needed politically.  I remember some numbers... 4 million displaced and over a million who fled the country.  They aren't going to return home.  The most important factor in the decrease in violence in Iraq is the fact that most neighborhoods are been 'cleansed.'  That clock won't be turned back.

    Parent
    Electronic Iraq (none / 0) (#103)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:15:50 PM EST
    is a good clearinghouse site for reports on Iraq that you don't get from the MSM, and they have a search function.

    Electronic Iraq

    Parent

    Remember GrooveTube? (none / 0) (#89)
    by magisterludi on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:50:32 AM EST
    "Exxon - Sign of the Double Cross".

    Parent
    Even weather reporting is political (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:13:30 AM EST
    I was surprised last night to see that all of our local TV stations were reporting weekend temperatures about 5-8 degrees higher than the National Weather Service is reporting. This is important, since the National Weather Service is reporting temperatures below 70 for the weekend. BRRR!

    I live in the Seattle region where this weekend we have Seafair, the big hydroplane races that bring folks from all over the region.  I am sure it's a big retail boon for the area.....

    ...so I suspect the very Republican, local TV stations are fibbing about the weather forecast so that people don't stay away justifiably due to the weather....hmmm.

    Never thought I'd see the day when even the weather would be political, but I think I'm seeing it now!  I've seen the hyping of snow forecasts, etc, but never of warmer temperatures.  

    That's odd. (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:27:25 AM EST
    [insert Doctor Who joke here]

    I track the weather religiously, especially when it is hot.  I have to know when to close the house up to keep it cool so about 3F-4F makes a difference to me.  5F-8F is a huge gap!  

    Parent

    That would be a corporate slant (none / 0) (#75)
    by lizpolaris on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:26:23 AM EST
    rather than a political one.  It would benefit local corporate interests to predict better weather in an area to attract visitors.  Not sure what political benefit there would be in changing a forecast unless some politician is holding an outdoor rally.  So maybe what you are observing is advertisers putting pressure on your local station to err on the side of profit.

    Parent
    Which to me is the same (none / 0) (#86)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:46:25 AM EST
    as partisan Republican.

    Parent
    I detest Seafair (none / 0) (#100)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:10:27 PM EST
    I detest everything about it. The overlong parade on 4th Ave, the Seafair Pirates, the hydroplanes, the Blue Angels, the drunks, all of it. I usually make sure to be out of town Seafair weekend but this year I have family coming into town, so... we will hopefully be staying away from downtown and the south end of mighty Lake WA.

    And I never believe the weather guys. But if my totmato plants don't start getting more heat real soon they are not going to be so bountiful!

    Parent

    Obama camp outrage over the (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:16:29 AM EST
    Paris Hilton/Britney Spears Celebrity ad...  

    Oh boy!  Is it just me?  They seem so thin skinned.  Many people would find it flattering to be compared to two beautiful blonde women.  

    I don't find the Bush/McCain ad to be so terribly negative either.  

    Public views of "what is offensive" seem so twisted this year.  

    Flattering? (5.00 / 0) (#76)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:28:43 AM EST
    Nice snark. And you mean democrats, but I guess "Obama camp" is snarky shorthand for you.  Atrios puts it best, imo. Succinct and to the point.


    He's An Uppity Negro Who Wants To F*ck Your Sister [profanity edited by me]

    Atrios
    And the NYT also not so bad.

    The Obama comeback Ad, a bit understated but still good, imo.

    Parent

    I mean (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:52:39 AM EST
    "Obama camp."  Lots of Democrats aren't voting for Obama this year but perhaps you haven't noticed that since you're too busy confusing us with Republicans (many of whom ARE voting for Obama).    

    Parent
    You Self Aggrandizing Position (1.50 / 2) (#96)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:00:46 PM EST
    Is laughable. But why not, lot's of people create fictions of 'us against the world', in order to assuage their feelings of powerlessness.

    It is the very essence of cult behavior. 'The end is near', is hovering somewhere in the background music.

    Parent

    For a smarty pants, Atrios can be really dumb (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Ellie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:06:32 PM EST
    Rilly?

    THAT's what he took away from a lame editorial?

    That black presumptive Dem nominee Obama, who, it turns out, incredibly, HAPPENS to be black (y'all), yeah he's black (y'all) was coming to f*ck Atrios's sisteran/or any other white guy's sister, which is what Stoopids believe?

    Way to foment that feelgood worship Obama or you're a racist Unity Pony fauxgressive equality-ishness!

    Parent

    Atrios's Comment Is Vulgar (5.00 / 5) (#102)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:14:26 PM EST
    and making every dang thing about race is wearing thin.  The "post racial" campaign is setting race relations back by decades.

    Parent
    lol (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:19:38 PM EST
    The McCain ad is vulgar, Atrios comment is a parody of the ad, and amazingly funny considering how real the sentiment is in America.

    Parent
    Atrio's Comment Has Nothing To Do With The Ad (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:24:23 PM EST
    It's just a tactic to call everything racist.  

    The Ad was negative, but not racist.

    Parent

    That Is Absurd (5.00 / 0) (#115)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:53:47 PM EST
    I find it hard to take you seriously, but just in case you are being sincere I will attempt to help you out.

    If the atrios comment had nothing to do with the McSame ad why did he link to this?  Random coincidence?

    John McCain has signed up GOP operative Terry Nelson as his campaign manager -- yep, that would be the same Terry Nelson who produced the infamous, racially-charged "bimbo" ad attacking Dem Tennessee Senate candidate Harold Ford, Jr.

    tpm


    Parent

    Ah, The Old Political Trick Of Conflation (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:48:02 PM EST
    The ad we're talking about was not the same as the "bimbo" ad.  This in nothing more than political conflation.  It's hard to take you serious, since you can't make the case based on the merits ( or lack thereof ) of the ad in question.

    Parent
    Old Trick? (3.50 / 2) (#140)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:15:48 PM EST
    Not an old trick at all. It should come as no surprise that the McSame team hired Terry Nelson, This new campaign ad clearly has his fingerprints all over it.

    You can choose to ignore the dogwhistles all you want. It is clear to me that overlaying Paris Hilton, and Britany Spears, with the image of Obama is all about miscegenation, a crime in some states of the Southern United States until the late twentieth century. Also we see (or don't see) the age old racist meme played out about fearing the oversexed black man going to rape your lilly white (GOP) daughter. The rockstar touch just adds another level of irresistibility aka sexual prowess to "the dangerous negro" meme.

    Parent

    "what is clear to you" (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:22:58 PM EST
    you know what.  you live in a sad and scary world.
    I feel a little sorry for you.

    Parent
    How? (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:27:42 PM EST
    There is not one thing in the ad that implies Obama is going to get sex from Hilton or Spears.  The ad is about 'celibrity' and never once mentions anyting about sex.  Only twisted, depraved minds are capable of 'seeing' sexual content where none exists.  

    I'm so tired of Obama's people making everything about race.  What happened to the "post racial" candiate?  They pull that old, tired, worn-out race card out of their back pocket each time they think it'll boost their numbers, and of course it worked in the primaires, so they'll keep going to that well as long as they can.

    And, BTW, it's very dishonest to continue to bring Terry Nelson up, since he was fired from the capaign a year before the ad was made.  I think we were told yesterday to only post facutal information.  To claim that someone who was fired a year ago is proof the ad is racist is disgracefully dishonest, especially since the informaiton of his dismissal is conveneintly left out each time.

    Parent

    lol (1.50 / 2) (#158)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:08:02 PM EST
    Sick and twisted mind. Thanks, I strive towards that, but I find it hilarious that you see racism in the 2006 Terry Nelson's infamous, racially-charged "bimbo" ad attacking Dem Tennessee Senate candidate Harold Ford, Jr. but you miss it in his latest bit of racist dogwhistling.

    I guess the overlaying of images was too sophisticated or subtle for you. Or you are a bit slow and need a few years to get it.

    Parent

    It looks more like (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:28:45 PM EST
    YOU are having difficulty understanding the overlay of images and rather than seeing the obvious comparison to content-less celebrities you've had to create something that isn't there.

      Those who can't see that for some Obama is viewed as  a political "candidate-lite" and more of a celebrity than a public servant, won't be able to see what the ad is targeting and will rely on old stereotypes to explain it. Its a blind spot for them, but it won't stop them from insisting that the rest of us have faulty vision.

     

    Parent

    You Are A Target (5.00 / 0) (#173)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:52:10 PM EST
    Obviously as one who agrees with the Obama presumptuous meme. But there is another target namely racists. Yup, we still have a lot of them in America, in case you have not noticed.

    Paris Hilton is not only a talentless hack, she is also an heiress who recently lost a big GOP battle regarding inheritance tax. She is a  GOP wet dream. Britany Spears also is not just an loser, she also loves BushCo and that love is returned. She was going to perform at the 2004 convention, but got pregnant, and dropped out.

    To me, and others, the ad appeals to two groups, just like the Harold Ford, Jr. video did. Not sure why you would argue that this ad only speaks to your crowd, but not racists as well.

    Could be that you hate Paris Hilton and Britany Spears, and cannot imagine that anyone would consider them as one of their own?

    Parent

    Why would racists even NEED to (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:00:26 PM EST
    see a picture of Hilton and Spears to get them to vote against Obama. If they think black people are scary r inferior then they won't vote for him, period. McCain doesn't need to run any ad to get their votes, and if he did run an ad, all it would need is a picture of Obama.

    "Gee, I think Obama's a scary inferior black man but I was all ready to vote for him anyway until I saw that ad with a shot of Paris Hilton and Britney Spears in it, talking about celebrities." Yup, you got the racist mindset all figured out don't you. As some poster here says, "hilarious".

    Parent

    Good One (3.00 / 1) (#177)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:18:50 PM EST
    So we do not need to worry about racism being used by the GOP this time around, because no racists will vote for Obama anyway.

    Glad that we have that sorted out.

    Parent

    Maybe So (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:25:36 PM EST
    But showing pictures of Paris and Brittney aren't going to turn any racists.

    Parent
    Wow, I'm betting you've impressed (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:32:32 PM EST
    yourself with how well you beat the stuffing out of that straw man. The rest of us, not so impressed.

    Parent
    Yes (1.00 / 1) (#188)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:45:32 PM EST
    The rest of you, as you so aptly put it (PUMAs no doubt) looved the ad.

    Not surprised that GOP slime tactics appeal to you.

    Parent

    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#193)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:51:18 PM EST
    Lying ( nobody said they loved the ad )

    Race-baiting

    Fabricating ( ie We hate Brit & Paris )

    Half-truths ( McCain announced hiring Nelson -- Fired a year ago )

    Conflating ( Obama ad is Ford ad )

    ... all in a day's work, eh squeaky?


    Parent

    you have milked this GOP connection before (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:13:11 PM EST
    please explain what that has to do with this ad.
    or anything else.
    why, by you argument, would the GOP be slandering two of their own by "fading" them into Obama.
    I seriously dont get that.


    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#178)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:25:28 PM EST
    Do you think that the blonde in the Harold Ford Jr hit piece was a democrat? Paris and Britany had a twofold purpose. You and PUMA's see the empty suit presumptuous layer, because you hate Paris and Britany.

    The other target, racists, do not see the empty suit talentless meme, because they love Paris and Britany and want to protect them. I realize that it is hard for you to believe that anyone would think Paris or Britany were anything but talentless bobble heads, but obviously many people looove them.

    Get it.


    Parent

    Your Argument Is Very Presumptous (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:28:40 PM EST
    The whold "love and hate" argument is baseless.  You don't know who loves and who hates these ladies.  You making up more hurlage to cover up the hurlage you started out with.

    Parent
    Hurlage. (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:33:21 PM EST
    Apt term.

    Parent
    Got It (none / 0) (#186)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:42:44 PM EST
    You loved the ad. Nuff said.

    Parent
    Nope. (none / 0) (#187)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:44:25 PM EST
    I said it wasn't racist.  You have a habit of misquoting/misrepresenting.

    Parent
    You Did Not Like It? (none / 0) (#190)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:46:26 PM EST
    Really? Why's that?

    Parent
    I said it wasn't racist. (none / 0) (#195)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:52:49 PM EST
    You are dishonest when you claim something about me that you don't know.

    Parent
    please (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    try to keep up.
    you said it wasnt racist. so clearly you loved it.


    Parent
    Let's Make A Pact (none / 0) (#199)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:58:38 PM EST
    In 2012, we discuss issues.
    Real issues.

    Parent
    Thanks, Captain (none / 0) (#201)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:59:03 PM EST
    for the belly laugh!

    Parent
    Unable To Answer A Simple Question? (none / 0) (#200)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:58:50 PM EST
    Did you like the video? Why or why not?

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#191)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:47:31 PM EST
    A lovely zen-like illustration of the pointlessness.

    Argument:

    The whold "love and hate" argument is baseless.

    Response:

    Got it. You loved the ad.


    Parent
    I think Im glad (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:55:49 PM EST
    there are only 4 more comments in this thread.

    Parent
    You Did Not Like It? (none / 0) (#192)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:49:26 PM EST
    Why is that, I am surprised. Almost all your comments to date are reflected in that ad.

    Parent
    soooo (none / 0) (#185)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:41:05 PM EST
    racists love the blond bimbo twins and want to protect them from the scary looming black man.

    you win.
    Im speechless.


    Parent

    Overlaying Of Images? (none / 0) (#164)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:20:59 PM EST
    Which does not occur?  One image fades out as the other fades in.  This does not in any way imply sex.  To the contrary, it's the very lack of sophistication of your argument that fails.  If you want me to believe the ad is about sex, you'll have to do better.  No matter how many time you write it, it just doens't ring true.

    Parent
    What Was It About The (none / 0) (#166)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:25:21 PM EST
    Harold Ford, Jr. video that made you think it was a racist dogwhistle? Or did I get that wrong too.

    Parent
    That Video Is Irrelevant (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:26:38 PM EST
    I'm talking about THIS video.  

    Parent
    it had a blond bare sholdered (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:32:19 PM EST
    white woman seductively asking Harold Ford to "call her".


    Parent
    heres link (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:34:29 PM EST
    Link

    so do us all a favor and describe it as dog whistle.
    since it actually is.


    Parent

    I face a bit of a dilemma this weekend (4.00 / 4) (#110)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:32:44 PM EST
    with an invitation to a birthday party.  From an AA friend with a lot of great activist AA friends.  

    For the first time, I feel unwilling to go to one of her great parties, because I bet that there will be political talk.  And race talk.  And for the first time, I feel just talked out about it all.  

    Thanks for the race fatigue, Obama.  Not enough you ran me out of the Dem party.  Now I might just miss birthday parties, too.

    Parent

    I agree. (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:35:00 PM EST
    The ad was racial.  And sexist as well, considering Britney and Paris were framed in such a way to take a shot at Obama.

    However, Josh Marshall's concern is pretty lame.  It's nice that he seems to grasp the way images of AA men and white women are opposed to each other and manipulated [to the detriment of both], but he has been far too insenstive to sexism to lead here.

    Parent

    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:50:24 PM EST
    It wasn't racist.  It was meant to point out big celebrities, like Obama who travelled the world attracting big crowds wherever he went.  

    If they had shown anyone of any color who attracts a big crowd, there would have been offense taken.  An ad showing Snoop Dogg or Will Smith would have been deemed just as offensive and possibly racist as well.  

    Obama is "the rockstar."  He wanted the label.  He got it.  Now he seems to want to push it away because it doesn't seem as cool as it once did.

    Parent

    The Ad (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:59:17 PM EST
    Was layered, literally and figuratively. You are only seeing one layer. Many who are racist will respond to the other layer. Digby explains about dogwhistles here.

    A snippet:

    See, it works on two levels. That's why it's called a dogwhistle --- only the racists can hear the racism in it.

    This is a complicated mode of communication that's been developed on the right for many decades. It's not something I just made up. There are dozens of examples: "welfare queen" and "Willie Horton," the "Hands" ad by Jesse Helms and most recently, the Harold Ford "Call Me" ad in 2006.




    Parent
    Why not Brad Pitt (5.00 / 0) (#123)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:23:06 PM EST
    and Angelina Jolie?  

    Paris and Britney have been given relentless negative attention for their behavior.  They are seen as completely superficial sex objects by most.  At the very least, drawing the comparison is not classy.  And considering the historical narrative of threatening black men v weak white women (from "King Kong" to OJ to the Vanity Fair cover of recent), drawing the comparison is not racially sensitive.

    I actually thought their inclusion was kind of a dogwhistle to Obama's past drug use.

    Parent

    Brad and Angie may be wildly (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:39:37 PM EST
    popular, but there is substance to them - they've adopted children from Africa, she has been very involved with the problems in Darfur, they bought a home in New Orleans and have been working to rebuild the area.  They don't just talk about what matters to them - they do things to back up their words.

    Paris and Britney were chosen for that ad because they are vapid.  Celebrity and notoriety, sure - but for what?  Sex tapes, family money, divorce and child custody issues and mental problems.

    Parent

    "Sex tapes, family money, (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:47:35 PM EST
    divorce and child custody issues and mental problems."

    None of which Obama has.  


    Parent

    you are wasting your time anne (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:50:25 PM EST
    no matter how many times this is explained to them they will feign ignorance.

    the intent of the ad is obvious.  and it worked.
    they are turning Obamas celebrity status into a liability.  
    if they can do it to a war hero who is surprised they  can do it to a content free celebrity.

    Parent

    the other poster is correct (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:35:55 AM EST
    they did a snappy come back ad.  which means they thought the first one worked.  and it did.  
    it was interesting that Obamas add talked about "old  politics" actually the word old was used about 10 times but it was the Obama add that looked old to me. it sounded prickley and thin skinned while the McCain ad was funny.
    grainy black and white image of McCain and all.

    Parent
    Are You Serious? (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by daring grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:56:26 PM EST
    The ad itself aside, you write that many people would be flattered to be compared to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears.

    Really? A lot of men you know would like be compared to those two?

    And Clinton--if Obama or McCain had compared her with Spears and Hilton you would have found that flattering?

    Parent

    Indeed. Twisted I think because we've got (none / 0) (#87)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:47:26 AM EST
    folks; who my gut tells me haven't ever really been the target of certain offenses, taking up the outrage mantle for folks who may have been offended in the past but aren't particularly offended now by what the folks carrying the mantle think they should be offended about.

    Parent
    I haven't seen the ad (none / 0) (#143)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:26:49 PM EST
    But this from politico is hilarious:

    Also, the Hiltons are apparently McCain donors...

    Parent

    Judge Rules Against Executive Privilege Claim (5.00 / 0) (#82)
    by The Maven on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:39:52 AM EST
    I haven't seen this mentioned here yet (apologies if it has been), but this morning a federal judge -- John D. Bates, nominated by Bush (!!) -- seems to have flatly ruled against the Administration's claims that Harriet Miers (and by extension, John Bolten and others) is immune from Congressional subpoenas.  The full 93-page decision is available here, and an AP wire service report summarizes the opinion.

    I imagine that this subject will be taken up by others later today.

    The Series of Tubes (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:04:45 PM EST
    is quickly going down the tubes.

    First Senate poll out of Alaska since the Ted Stevens indictment.

    Begich(D) 50
    Stevens(R)37

    Alaska

    FWIW (5.00 / 0) (#204)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:52:10 PM EST
    billmon is Baaacck

    I, for one, missed him. Hopes he sticks around for awhile.

    interesting game (none / 0) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:01:39 AM EST
    trying to figure out how this could effect our own politics:

    Prime Minister Ehud Olmert intends to hand his resignation letter to President Shimon Peres the day after the September 17 Kadima primary and ask him to entrust the new party leader with forming a new government, Olmert's associates said Wednesday night.

    I wonder (none / 0) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:18:19 AM EST
    do you think Ludacris thought he was doing Obama any favors with this

    Yeah what a moron. Ludacris is quick to (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:24:55 AM EST
    point real or imagined racism, then gives the Rethugs every opportunity to blow the dogwhistle. Btw, did anyone see R. Maddow the other day pretty much call out P. Buchanan on his racist "uppity" meme on Obama? I missed it, but I heard it was absolutely tasty!

    Parent
    So, you think the biggest (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by dk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:29:57 AM EST
    problem with the Ludacris' lyrics is that they gave Republicans a reason to be racist?  Oy.

    Parent
    this is going to be a big deal I think (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:33:03 AM EST
    one more under the bus.  eventually.

    Parent
    It looks like he's going (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by dk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:40:45 AM EST
    with the "McClurkin double flip somersault with twist" move.  I.e. denounce it just enough to get a pretty quote in the papers, but not enough to alienate the potential voters who are eating up the misogyny.

    Parent
    dk please pay attention to the comments. Capt. (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:42:01 AM EST
    Howdy was talking about the song controversy in relation TO OBAMA. Of course the lyrics were offensive and stupid on many levels (race, sex, and just general disrespect)

    Parent
    Why do you think I'm (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by dk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:51:50 AM EST
    not paying attention to comments?  I think the fact that the lyrics were misogynistic and specifically disrespectful to someone who deserves respect is more damaging to Obama than the idea that they might be giving fodder to racists.  After all, I doubt racists were going to vote for Obama even before these lyrics came out.  However, some non-racist women might have, and might be turned off by this.

    Parent
    you know (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:53:59 AM EST
    I honestly think the stuff about McCain in a wheelchair is just as offensive.  its horrible.

    Parent
    Me too. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:21:37 AM EST
    As the parent of one kid with cerebral palsy, I see nothing ha-ha funny about disabilities - wheelchair or no.

    It gives me so much pleasure to see things like wheelchair shopping carts and motorized shopping carts in a grocery store.  It says "The disabled belong here.".

    Parent

    What Did You Expect (1.00 / 1) (#62)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:44:15 AM EST
    from a rapper?  The success of this 'art' is due to it's offensiveness.  It will probably play well to it's audience, and not get much attention outside that.  Unless, of course, the media gets obsessed with it, and even it that happens, why should I expect it to be any more damaging that Rev. Wright/Rev. Plager?

    Parent
    I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:08:13 AM EST
    did you actually listen to all those lyrics.


    Parent
    I Did (2.00 / 0) (#73)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:22:55 AM EST
    I'm really not a fan or rap music, but I've heard enough to know that offensiveness is, not only common in its lyrics, but also a reason for it's success.  That's why its audience is mostly confined to young, rebellious gansta wanna-bees.   I'd say an overwhelming majority of the country never hears these lyrics, except that the media has now picked up on it.

    Parent
    You've been listening to the wrong stuff (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:35:34 AM EST
    First of all, rap started out as an outlet against the brutal life in the ghetto in the 80s.  Yes it was angry and violent, because people were angry and life was violent.  However, it was also very political in the beginning.  Then the 90s came, and after biggie and 2pac died there was an effort to make rap less angry and violent, so it switched to a more commercial "money and hos" theme.  At the same time Clear Channel took over all the airways and stifled any outlet for the more honest, political, and yes sometimes angry and violent rap.  However, there have always been artists who have kept up the message.  In recent years they have gotten more mainstream again.  Also, a lot of college students are into more "underground" rap which has a very political, often positive message.  This message is carrying over to more mainstream artists.  Which is why you now also hear songs like "Jesus Walks" on the radio and artists like Nas, the Roots, Common, and Lupe Fiasco making bigger waves.

    Also, most of us like hip-hop because of the good beats, not because we are wanna-be "gangstas"

    Parent

    Nas (none / 0) (#106)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:21:42 PM EST
    has a great song out about Fox News.  He performed it on the Colbert Report.

    Now I don't know why Obama ever openly supported Ludacris period.  It just seems kind of dumb.  Though personally, I love Pimpin' All Over the World.  

    I look forward to R Kelly's take on the political events of this year.

    Parent

    Nas (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:46:37 PM EST
    I linked to it below.

    Not a huge fan of Luda personally, I always thought he was a bit boring, which is kinda funny now...

    I do NOT want R. Kelly's take on this election, unless he is somehow voting for McCain in which case, please speak up R. Kelly.

    Parent

    Oops. (none / 0) (#124)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:25:22 PM EST
    Hadn't clicked on it.

    I do want R Kelly's take on the election...however, I can wait until January 21, 2009.

    Parent

    I think you're talking about (none / 0) (#126)
    by LatinoVoter on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:28:55 PM EST
    Gangsta rap being "angry and violent." Originally rap was not "angry and violent" the first rap song on a major record label was recorded by Blondie.

    Parent
    Good point (none / 0) (#127)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:38:32 PM EST
    I thought "rappers delight" was the first rap recorded, not Blondie, although that certainly isn't angry and violent either.  But the vast majority of rap from the 80s and early 90s was certainly angry, although not always violent.

    Parent
    of course you are right (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:31:57 AM EST
    that most of the country never hears this stuff.  that is exactly why they are going to go ape s*it when they hear it.  and they are going to hear it.
    and that Obama is a big fan and has this stuff on his IPod.


    Parent
    Nothing sticks to teflon (none / 0) (#81)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:37:22 AM EST
    ;)

    Parent
    personally (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:49:01 AM EST
    I think the whole teflon thing is an invention of media wishful thinking.  the polls do not reflect the fawning media coverage and the hand to hand combat only started this week.
    we will see about the teflon thing.


    Parent
    sorry dk. I thought you were trying (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:00:17 AM EST
    for something else in your earlier point.

    Parent
    dk....and Ludacris has already been (none / 0) (#57)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:32:32 AM EST
    tossed under the bus by the obama camp...

    Parent
    not really (none / 0) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:53:31 AM EST
    in that statement he said good things about his as well.  and then there is the fact that Ludacris did a fundraiser for him in 07 and Obama has talked in interviews about how much he likes him and how he has him on his IPod.
    this is a little more than a loose cannon business as usual for a rapper.

    Parent
    Really (5.00 / 0) (#68)
    by daring grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:07:06 AM EST
    BBC

    "A song by rap star Ludacris criticising Barack Obama's opponents has been called "outrageously offensive" by the US presidential candidate's campaign."

    ""Ludacris is a talented individual but he should be ashamed of these lyrics," said Mr Obama's spokesman Bill Burton."

    It IS ludicrous to expect anyone to take responsibility for a supporter's every move, every word. Obama likes what he likes about this performer and when this guy puts out a flagrantly offensive and inflammatory song, Obama calls him out for it.

    SOP in politics and elsewhere.

    Parent

    I hope someone asks (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:13:35 PM EST
    if he is still on his IPod.


    Parent
    Capt. How about we settle for partially (none / 0) (#64)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:56:28 AM EST
    under the bus?  :)

    Parent
    Deservedly n/t (none / 0) (#65)
    by daring grace on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:57:37 AM EST


    Parent
    I would agree from a mainstream media (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:34:22 AM EST
    perspective no.  But in all honesty, that's not who he's going after w/that video.  Anyone who's listened to Ludacris' lyrics in the past would know that he's kind of a next generation pro-black, Chuck D/Public Enemy-type rapper.  Albeit w/the not always positive message of PE back in the days.  The song IMO is more designed to come off as "pride in the fact that we in the black community have a black man running for president, " type song - with the rough edge most rap has today.

    Parent
    I dont see anything wrong (5.00 / 0) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:45:45 AM EST
    with this the way you state it.  my only point is that it is going to be picked up by the media and everyone is going to hear it and it is not going to be well received by the average uptight white voter.


    Parent
    I agree white folks ain't gonna like it, (none / 0) (#95)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:59:05 AM EST
    nor are older folks in most (if not all) racial demographics for that matter.  Or anyone that doesn't like rap, or doesn't like Ludacris period.  I wonder if this will get a lot of media hype tho.  I suspect folks already assume there are some "radicals" supporting Obama so this is kinda "old news".  Oh and btw, there is something wrong w/some of the lyrics.  Ludacris is just like all the others who is projecting on the blank canvas.

    Parent
    doh! (none / 0) (#99)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:10:25 PM EST
    Ludacris is just like all the others who are projecting on the blank canvas.

    Parent
    Folks like Ludacris can't be controlled. (4.50 / 2) (#56)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:30:17 AM EST
    At least not by politicians. So you have to take the good with the bad when you court their support. He's a rapper and he's not saying anything that you can't hear out on the street.

    Parent
    That Booty, Label and Bling style of rap was tired (1.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Ellie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:23:31 AM EST
    ... last century.

    WTF? This is just embarrassing Oboiz fanboy stuff.

    Maybe it's to lather up the camp followers who attempt to deflect ANY criticism of Obama based on his woeds and deeds by pretending the critics racistly called Obama Uppity.

    No matter how egregiously bigoted the latest recorded @ssholery from Obama was, count on fauxgressives to run that lame outrage about the outrage sh!t, knowing it'll work on, well, fauxgressives.

    Yep, the O-blogs even stoop to putting the attributed Uppity word -- that no one but themselves used -- in quotes to feign quoting it.

    Also, I liked Ludacris better when he was baiting Bill O'Really?!?!. THAT battle was fun, eg, moments where BO'R threatened to bring Luda down with massive boycotts. (LOL)

    Parent

    no! that vote is already locked up for obama. (none / 0) (#31)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:42:43 AM EST


    Parent
    honestly (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:47:28 AM EST
    I dont get it.  why do this.  are they dumb and insular enough to think the angry nasty hip-hop attitude is a way to win elections in a mostly uptight white country?
    it boggles the mind.  

    Parent
    it boggles my mind as well, but it sure fits (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:06:56 AM EST
    the donna brazile comments about a "new" democratic party. one that will fall flat on its face by the way.

    Parent
    Everything old is new again (4.00 / 3) (#104)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:16:03 PM EST
    The "mostly uptight white country" was been around for a long time--and they've had their undies in a bunch over music for just about as long.  

    Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis, the Beatles, Black Sabbath, etc.  Young people's music has always been, in part, about p*ssing off the older generation/the man/the establishment.  

    I don't see rap as being any different.  

    Parent

    jfk didn't do any elvis moves while (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    speaking. and rap is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo insulting to women. so yeah there is BIG DIFFERENCE.

    Parent
    I've never seen Obama... (4.00 / 3) (#122)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:17:17 PM EST
    rap while speaking either.  Just Karl Rove...

    The fact that you find it so very insulting is indeed central to my point.

    Parent

    frankly (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:25:51 PM EST
    I think comparing any entertainer you mentioned to the hateful crap in that video is sort of offensive.
    to the entertainers and everyone who loves them.
    and I am pretty tired of apologists who equate the hateful misogynistic racist stuff in a lot of rap music, and particularly THAT rap music, to John Lennon or any other rock artist.
    its simply comparing apples and oranges.
    and if you dont think it will have an effect I say hide and watch.


    Parent
    Ever Listen To Early Jazz? (5.00 / 0) (#134)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:51:11 PM EST
    The "proper" folks then were saying the same thing you are today.

    I Wish I Could Shimmy Like My Sister Kate
    And as for the term jazz:

    "If the truth was really known about the origins of Jazz,
    it would certainly never be mentioned in polite society."

    The expression arose sometime during the later nineteenth century in the better brothels of New Orleans, which provided music and dancing as well as sex. The original Jazz band, according to Herbert Asbury's The Latin Quarter (1938), was the 'Spasm Band' made up of seven boys, aged twelve to fifteen, who first appeared in New Orleans about 1895. They advertised themselves as the "Razzy Dazzy Spasm Band."



    Parent
    The Link (none / 0) (#135)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:51:53 PM EST
    here

    Parent
    frankly (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:01:00 PM EST
    I think comparing any entertainer you mentioned to the hateful crap in that video is sort of offensive.
    to the entertainers and everyone who loves them.
    and I am pretty tired of apologists who equate the hateful misogynistic racist stuff in a lot of rap music, and particularly THAT rap music, to any jazz artist.
    its simply comparing apples and oranges.
    and FYI I am quite a fan of jazz.
    also thank you for proving you can always be more clueless than I imagined possible.

    Parent
    You Sound Just Like (4.00 / 3) (#154)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:58:25 PM EST
    The preachers and upstanding folk who lambasted Jazz, as immoral, misogynistic and evil.

    It is art. High or low it is an expression of where we are today. You do not have to listen to it, but to write it off as some kind hateful crap that belongs in the toilet, makes you sound quite the Philistine or snob.

    But "jazz" is an unmitigated cacophony, a combination of disagreeable sounds in complicated discords, a willful ugliness and a deliberate vulgarity."

    [snip]

    Many white older Americans were appalled to see their children dancing to music that was believed to have emerged from what the music critic of the New York Herald Tribune called "the Negro brothels of the South." "Jazz," said the editor of Etude, "is often associated with vile surroundings, filthy words, unmentionable dances."

    It [jazz] was originally "the accompaniment of the voodoo dancer," declared Mrs. Max Obendorfer, national music chairman of the General Federation of Women's Clubs, "stimulating the half-crazed barbarian to the vilest deeds ... [It] has also been employed by other barbaric people to stimulate barbarity and sensuality." Blacks were not the sole sources of the jazz contagion. The critic Carl Engel also worried about the effects on Anglo-Saxon youth of what he called "Semitic purveyors of Broadway melodies," while Henry Ford's Dearborn Independent blamed what it called "the abandoned sensuousness of sliding notes" on sinister Jews.

    link

    Parent

    Heh... I love this line... (none / 0) (#163)
    by desertswine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:17:15 PM EST
    "the abandoned sensuousness of sliding notes"

    Parent
    Frankly... (3.50 / 2) (#129)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:40:36 PM EST
    ...you also thing the whole Wailing Wall thing was some big conspiracy on the part of the Obama campaign.  I'm pretty tired of that.

    As far as apples to oranges--you are speaking to a specific song/video (one that I have never seen and most likey never will, btw) while I was speaking in general terms.  

    You find it offensive?  Don't watch/listen to  it.  Nobody is holding a gun to your head.  I personally don't have a taste for rap, so I listen to what I like and appeals to me.  

    It is still a free country.  

    Parent

    perhaps you should watch it (4.25 / 4) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:48:07 PM EST
    so you know what is being discussed.
    and you can certainly listen to whatever you like. personally I loath hiphop but my point was the effect THIS particular one is going to have on this election.


    Parent
    While I agree that Ludacris's rap is terrible (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:16:32 PM EST
    I wish I could share my playlist here.  Might stop you from loathing hip-hop.  It's really not all bad...  I even got my parents listening to some of it.  They love Lauryn Hill!

    I don't think this will affect the election though.  Anyone who is outraged at Obama because of something Ludacris rapped about with respect to presidential candidates wasn't voting for him anyway (see Rev. Wright, etc...).

    Parent

    also (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:48:40 PM EST
    you so understand that Obama has praised this guy repeatedly in interviews.  he has said he has him on his IPod and listens to it.  he also did a high profile fundraiser for him last year.  this is not just about some rapper making up a song that includes some stuff about an election.

    Parent
    well (none / 0) (#148)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:46:15 PM EST
    that was a bit of an overstatement.  I do not loath all hip hop.  including Laren Hill.  and I think Kanye West is interesting some times.  my music collection has literally every kind of music you can think of including some hip hop.  
    but I loath Lucacris and his ilk.

    Parent
    Why exactly do I have to watch it... (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:46:21 PM EST
    ...to know what is being discussed?  I'm perfectly capable of understanding that without seeing the video.  

    But then, I have a good understanding of the history of music in America and that long tradition of resistance and outrage that goes along with it.

    I also realize that an artist has the freedom to express themselves through their music/words as they see fit, no matter if you or I or whomever doesn't happen to like it or finds it offensive.  

    Parent

    True. But its still incredibly stupid for an (none / 0) (#194)
    by tree on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:52:29 PM EST
    artist to think that he's helping Obama by singing an song that's offensive to so many people. I believe that was the original post's point.

    Parent
    and we are free to state our opinions (3.50 / 2) (#145)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:34:10 PM EST
    here in keeping with tl guidelines and not yours. in my humble opinion obama's imitating a rapper in wipe her off your shoulder is insulting to a degree that makes me ill. so you hang in there with your views. fine, millions of us won't agree with you by the way.

    Parent
    Just curious (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:40:15 PM EST
    As I have heard this many times.  Where did this come from??? "wipe her off your shoulder".  There is no HER in that line.  It's dirt.  Not Hillary.  It is pretty clear from the song what he is talking about.  Not a person, in no way shape or form does that make sense in the context of the song.  Dirt of campaigning does make sense in the context of the song.

    Parent
    i am not stupid. i know exactly what he was (2.00 / 1) (#147)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:42:47 PM EST
    talking about as did his audience. don't take other democrats as stupid. spin doesn't fly here.

    Parent
    I didn't call you stupid (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:54:51 PM EST
    I want to know what makes you think that.  It's not obvious to me, I was wondering if there was something specific you could point to.  It's a pretty base accusation to make without proof.  It's also not spin, it's my personal opinion, and frankly, I wonder if you've ever listened to the song, which is fine if you haven't, but would also explain why you don't see the context the way I do.  Or maybe you have heard it and still think differently, also fine, I was just wondering WHY.

    Parent
    Well playing '99 problems' at a rally ... (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Ellie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:41:12 PM EST
    ... and wiping the dirt off his shoulder is pretty obvious crap, and it's far and way more egregiously obvious than O'pologists.

    "I got 99 problems and a b1tch ain't one"

    ... to huge applause.

    Please, this was in direct reference to his FEMALE rival in the campaign. This was more overtly bigoted than ANYTHING his feigned-outrage chorus of opportunists have seen or heard about Obama.

    Not my horse, not my barn: anyone who's spporting this fraud deserves a third Bush term (which is what Obama is IMO.)

    A McCain presidency is useful in that the Dem congress can get off its @ss and depose him, while an Obama presidency just guarantees One Party "cooperation" with the party that doesn't actually cooperate ... just flattens Unity Pony types into submission.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:04:27 PM EST
    Given that "99 problems" was reported in the post and no quarter, while refuted at KOS and democratic underground (who showed videos unlike the others) I am skeptical about that.  Here is a post from Politico which suggests you are wrong.  If you have a link to a video that shows otherwise I'd be grateful to see it.

    However, I was specifically referring to the "dirt off your shoulder" reference which is very different.

    Parent

    ellie (none / 0) (#172)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:50:51 PM EST
    something tells me you wont be flattened so easily.
    ps
    if I was straight I would hit on you.


    Parent
    in a round about way that is what you (none / 0) (#155)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:00:29 PM EST
    basically say. you don't see? fine! i do.

    Parent
    umm (4.33 / 3) (#159)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:08:43 PM EST
    Ok I wanted to have a conversation.  I guess you won't answer my question.  I wasn't calling you stupid, just wondering if you understood the context, or saw something I didn't.  My mom wouldn't understand the context and she's one of the smartest people I know.  I try not to insult people here, sorry if it came off that way.

    Parent
    That was just painful. (none / 0) (#35)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:51:42 AM EST
    And really really stupid if his intent was to help.  Personally, I wish more rappers would act like this.

    Parent
    Oops (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:52:42 AM EST
    I meant like this

    That last post makes it seem like I was endorsing Ludacris...  Which I'm NOT!!!

    Parent

    The Weather Channel (none / 0) (#15)
    by pie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:27:39 AM EST
    is reporting that air-quality is so poor in China that certain Olympic events might have to be postponed or cancelled.

    Why are the Games being held there again?

    Because the hold out debt (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Lahdee on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:29:45 AM EST
    and they said so?

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#18)
    by pie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:30:29 AM EST
    I already knew the answer.  :(

    Parent
    I read something about fear of terrorists (none / 0) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:34:14 AM EST
    attacks.  
    what terrorist is stupid enough to try an attack in China?

    Parent
    the people who blew up (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by kredwyn on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:50:28 AM EST
    a bus in China last week?

    Parent
    well. there you go (none / 0) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:52:39 AM EST
    give people a tiny taste of freedom and what happens.
    here comes the iron fist.  still I would suggest anyone who does this plan on a suicide attack.
    it would be way preferable to getting caught.

    Parent
    If anyone is interested....it is important! (none / 0) (#59)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:35:32 AM EST
    link

    Thanks Nancy... (none / 0) (#66)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 10:57:43 AM EST
    ...Pelosi throws Mark Udall under the bus, gives talking point to Dick Wadhams.  

    http://tinyurl.com/6kwa6g

    I believe... (none / 0) (#70)
    by NJDem on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:09:01 AM EST
    it was Cream City who was waiting for 'Obama the flip-flopper' to make it into Leno's monologue as proof that that meme had sufficiently entered the mainstream/our socio-political culture.

    Well, this is a bit different, and from Letterman, but thought it was worth the post.  link

    Yup. I said it, I stand by it -- (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:27:47 PM EST
    and Letterman means the same thing to me.

    Obama is now officially a pop culture joke.

    Parent

    HAH.... Oklobama! Funny stuff. (none / 0) (#85)
    by desertswine on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:45:56 AM EST


    Parent
    51% of Californians support off shore drilling (none / 0) (#72)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:21:10 AM EST
    This is a dramatic shift...it's all about the oil
    story in today's Comical

    I hope the poster comes back (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:50:54 AM EST
    who was telling me the other day that there would never be off shore drilling there even if gas was 8 dollars a gallon.

    Parent
    McCain campaign says Obama playing the race card (none / 0) (#94)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:57:27 AM EST
    Fasten your seat belts....

    Update at 11:55 a.m. ET. McCain campaign chief Rick Davis says Obama did play the "race card."

    McCain's campaign has released this statement from Davis:

    "Barack Obama has played the race card, and he played it from the bottom of the deck. It's divisive, negative, shameful and wrong."

    Update at 12:05 p.m. ET: The McCain campaign has also put together a chronology and links to video clips about what Obama said."

    oy

    Watch this one for a trend test. (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:34:54 PM EST
    The McCain camp tried this a couple of weeks ago when Obama tried the same thing.  The McCain camp didn't get much traction with it then.

    If it's getting traction now, it's telling us something.

    Oh, btw, Gallup's tracking poll is telling us something, too.  The one that's best for tracking trends has it almost a dead heat today -- Obama 45, McCain 44.

    Parent

    for once I agree with Republico (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:10:43 PM EST
    Davis, in effect, is laying down a marker.

    Parent
    I hope it gets traction (5.00 / 6) (#136)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:59:03 PM EST
    I'm tired of people inventing racism and race-baiting where it only exists in the eyes of someone who needs to find it there, and I'm tired of Obama using his race as a club on people who are going to be too terrified of being called racist to hit back. I hope McCain stops it now before race relations in this country are set back any further.

    Parent
    BTW (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:00:42 PM EST
    the "black hole idiocy" was the last straw for me.

    Parent
    that is so true. all it does is lead to (none / 0) (#150)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:49:36 PM EST
    backlash which we don't need or want.

    Parent
    I think you are speaking for many many (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:04:33 PM EST
    people.  including me.

    Parent
    Interesting news article.... (none / 0) (#151)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:49:59 PM EST
    link

    I laughed at the part where obama sez McCain refuses to discuss issues....pot calling kettle....

    Parent

    amazing (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:09:24 PM EST
    However, comparing his looks to those of presidents on U.S. currency -- all white men -- gave his opponents a chance to say the man who would be the first black president was subtly charging racism.

    that was subtle but the McCain ad was blatant.
    just kill me.

    Parent

    You aren't getting off that easy Capt.! :) (none / 0) (#180)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:27:12 PM EST


    Parent
    just one of those things (none / 0) (#101)
    by Chisoxy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:12:41 PM EST
    McCain can hit with that Hillary could barely touch.

    I dont know that this is a smart move though. They're doing it preemptively to prevent thermselves from being called racist down the line. That's the only thing that makes sense.

    Parent

    Have any of you charming lawyers read (none / 0) (#153)
    by laurie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:57:44 PM EST
    the exam papers on Constitutional Law that Obama set in 2003? I find them very revealing. NYT article on BO as a Law Prof links to them.
    I will try to post link here:

    I saw it (none / 0) (#157)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:07:36 PM EST
    heres a Link

    Parent
    try reading the 2003 exam paper- (none / 0) (#161)
    by laurie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:12:44 PM EST
    it says it all

    Parent
    helpful hint (none / 0) (#162)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:13:11 PM EST
    I have never figured out how to post the actual html code that does a link here because, well, its html code and it wont show up.
    but
    if you go to the theleftcoaster.com and click on the comments link a comment box will appear and in that box at the bottom is a line you can copy and paste somewhere that will allow you to do in text linking like I did above.
    just substitute the line for any word and replace the "Linked Text" part with the word you want to appear.


    Parent
    try it first with the preview button (none / 0) (#165)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:23:17 PM EST
    you can even make sure the link works.

    Parent
    Funny Doonesbury (none / 0) (#184)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:33:35 PM EST
    Funny because it's true

    Obama using race card? (none / 0) (#205)
    by fctchekr on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:19:47 PM EST
    It's an interesting preemptive race baiting strategy: on three separate occasions BO put it out that Republicans will try to paint him as... i.e. someone they've never seen before on dollar  bills. (see below)

    If Obama was reacting to the ad, than he's off mark. The ad attacked him for his celebrity, it didn't attack him because of his race. Here's the text and link:

    "At three stops in the battleground state of Missouri, Obama told audiences that his opponent is trying to make voters "scared" of him because he doesn't look like past presidents -- an apparent reference to being black -- and has a "funny name."

    "Nobody really thinks that Bush or McCain have a real answer for the challenges we face," Obama said Wednesday in Springfield, Missouri. "So what they're going to try to do is make you scared of me. You know, he's not patriotic enough. He's got a funny name. You know, he doesn't look like all those other presidents on those dollar bills, you know. He's risky."

    This is not the first time Obama has delivered this line. He made similar comments dating back to the Democratic presidential primary. But a McCain adviser said Davis reacted strongly because the McCain campaign said Obama was directly responding to a new McCain campaign ad.

    The political ad, which the McCain campaign released Wednesday, features starlets Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. The ad calls Obama the "biggest celebrity in the world" and asks, "But is he ready to lead?"

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/31/campaign.wrap/index.html

    Thursday Morning Open Thread | 202 comments (202 topical)