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Obama Denies He's Moving to the Middle

In Georgia today, Sen. Barack Obama today denied allegations he's moving to the middle, including on guns, the death penalty and Iraq.

"The people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me"....

Obama blamed criticism from "my friends on the left" and "some of the media" in part on cynicism that ascribes political motives for every move candidates make. "You're not going to agree with me on 100 percent of what I think, but don't assume that if I don't agree with you on something that it must be because I'm doing that politically," he said. "I may just disagree with you."

Obama then went on to explain his views on faith and government. [More...]

"I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything. I also believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in faith."

So, he said when he talks about the idea of recruiting churches and other religious groups to provide community services through faith-based initiatives, as he did last week, "that's not something new. I've been talking about that for years now. I've been organizing with churches for years in the community. So the notion that somehow that's me trying to look more centered, more centrist, is just not true."

On guns,

He also raised the Supreme Court ruling that upheld the rights of individuals to bear arms and said: "I actually have said that I agree with that for years, even before the ruling came down." He said that doesn't contradict his view that "we've got decent controls over the use of illegal firearms in our community."

Small point, but he also supports controls on legal firearms.

Obama on his progressive views:

I am somebody who is no doubt progressive. I believe in a tax code that we need to make more fair. I believe in universal health care. I believe in making college affordable. I believe in paying our teachers more money. I believe in early childhood education,"

He clarified his position on Iraq:

opposed this war from the start" and "I have also consistently said that once we were in, we had to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in."

< What is DOJ's OPR Doing? | Obama's Statement on Disagreement With His FISA Position >
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  • Display: Sort:
    If it looks like the center (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Lahdee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:48:24 PM EST
    and it quacks like the center, then it's the center.


    Calling MO Blue to explain again (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:55:17 PM EST
    that it's not the center.  We-the-people are the center, and based on what we tell the pollsters re FISA, abortion, etc., we are to the left of Obama now.  

    So Obama is right of center, of the public, now.

    MO Blue, pls feel free to amend if I have not summarized well or have done so too succinctly -- in my apologia for my earlier comment when I so sloppily wrote of Obama moving to the center.  Mea culpa. :-)

    Parent

    C'mon... abortion? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:00:44 PM EST
    That dog don't hunt.  100% from NARAL, three years running.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 10) (#21)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:06:50 PM EST
    that's because legislative ratings are based upon things like Obama's sponsorship of a bill providing for a mental health exception for late-term abortions, rather than his statement to the Christian magazine that there would have to be a "serious physical issue" for a late-term abortion to be permissible.

    The rating, however, does not make his statement go away, nor does it establish that he is not trying to have it both ways on this issue.

    Parent

    NARAL's endorsement of Obama (5.00 / 8) (#32)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:12:06 PM EST
    was a huge, controversial mistake. It fractured the group into regional and national pieces. The New York chapters were especially angry that Senator Clinton, who has a far more progressive record on womens' rights, was not endorsed by the national chapter.

    Parent
    Well, right (5.00 / 7) (#46)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:20:18 PM EST
    but I was talking just about the ratings, which are actually sort of hackish to be perfectly honest.  For example, one of the reasons many people were outraged over NARAL's endorsement of Lincoln Chafee is that Chafee voted for cloture on the Alito nomination, helping to break the filibuster.  NARAL's response was to simply refrain from scoring the cloture vote at all, scoring only the vote on confirmation, where Chafee got to cast a noble and meaningless no vote to preserve his record.

    I don't think any good progressive should take NARAL or its ratings seriously given their demonstrated predilection for gaming the system in order to make their preferred candidates score better.  Their defense of Obama on the whole "present" vote thing is another one of those "who are they kidding?" moments.  I just couldn't be more contemptuous of them as an organization.

    Parent

    NARAL Is a Joke (5.00 / 6) (#55)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:27:10 PM EST
    At least the national PAC is.  They sold their souls a long time ago.  But they sold cheap and the money ran out and so this year it was time to refinance with Obama.  Although I guess at least they were honest about their endorsement being because of the $.  That's more than I'd say about a lot of "progressive" groups.

    Parent
    NARAL lost all credibility with me (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:56:31 PM EST
    when they endorsed Joe "Short Bus Ride" Lieberman. He said it was fine for women who had been raped to be denied the morning-after pill by "pro-life" doctors or nurses. "There are lots of hospitals in Connecticut - they can just take a short bus ride," he said.

    They are a terrible organization.

    Parent

    He was ASKED to make those present votes. (2.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:25:59 PM EST
    Learn the history if you want to be credible on this.  Planned Parenthood requested he vote present on them, and he agreed to.

    Re: ratings, they reflect votes, not rhetoric, and I'll take votes as the standard 11 times out of 10.  Obviously they're an imperfect mechanism, but then... I guarantee you can't cite me a bad vote of Obama's on choice.

    Parent

    I've Learned the History (5.00 / 5) (#59)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:29:29 PM EST
    and I don't believe it.  It runs counter to common sense and the memories of others, including other legislators, other abortion rights supporters, and at least one friend of Obama's.  The current president of Planned Parenthood of Illinois decided to cover for Obama and, as with everything having to do with Obama, much of the "progressive" blogosphere bought it without asking any questions or applying any critical thought to it.  

    Parent
    LOL (2.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:32:57 PM EST
    "Everybody is lying if it contradicts my confirmation bias!!"

    Priceless.

    Parent
    It is priceless (5.00 / 6) (#70)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:36:42 PM EST
    considering YOU are the only one claiming "everyone is lying."  BDB offered the far more plausible explanation that the current president of Planned Parenthood of Illinois is lying and everyone else is telling the truth.

    Parent
    I'm not claiming anyone is lying. (2.66 / 3) (#98)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:54:44 PM EST
    I think some people are letting their bias cloud their reasoning, but that's not "lying."

    Parent
    Let me get this straight (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:05:56 PM EST
    The "other legislators, other abortion rights supporters, and at least one friend of Obama's" who disagree with Planned Parenthood's story about the "present" votes are letting their bias cloud their reasoning?

    Parent
    "Do not recall" = "disagree"? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:09:18 PM EST
    Pretty high standard, there.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 7) (#67)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:35:17 PM EST
    The story that an organization tells about one of the candidates it supports is not "the history."  It very much annoys me to see that particular fairy tale constantly sold as the gospel truth.

    Gee, let's put on our thinking caps and look at that story for just a second.  We're told that there was a coordinated strategy where solidly pro-choice legislators were urged to vote "present" in order to provide cover for legislators in more conservative districts who wanted to oppose the bill without incurring political risk.  You agree that that's the story, right?

    Okay, so pretend you're a Blue Dog, trying to persuade your conservative constituents that you're with them on abortion even though you voted against abortion restrictions by voting "present."  Gosh, would your claim be more persuasive if all the pro-choice liberals voted "present" just like you, or would it be more persuasive if you could point out that you actually voted DIFFERENTLY from the pro-choice liberals?

    Just let it sink in for a moment.  If all the liberals voted "no," you could tell your constituents that you didn't agree with the liberals, but you voted "present" because you had some other random issue with the bill.  But if all the liberals voted "present," how does your own "present" vote help you defend yourself with your conservative constituents?  When the liberals vote the exact same way you did, guess what, you look more liberal and not less liberal!

    Parent

    I didn't say it's a good strategy. (2.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:42:01 PM EST
    Frankly, it seems pointless to me (cover with... whom, exactly?).  But I think it's hilarious that some people have decided that Illinois PP are just liars!!! because they just know that Obama is anti-choice.  

    Whatever Obama did, for whatever reasons, Planned Parenthood likes him very much as a candidate.  Seriously, that gives you no confidence on his choice bona fides?

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#113)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:12:07 PM EST
    Of course Obama is just fine on choice.  Even on his worst days I don't see him as any worse than a solid Dem.  I don't expect any acts of pro-choice heroism out of him, to be sure.

    I have decided that Illinois PP are telling a fairy tale, not because I "know Obama is anti-choice," but because the strategy they allege simply makes no sense.  It's like Obama's claim that he voted against a 30% cap on credit card interest rates, thus leaving no cap at all in place, because he thought the cap ought to be lower.  You can tell any old story about why you voted a certain way.  I'm not required to believe it if it's totally implausible.

    What I see from Obama is not so much an unacceptable amount of centrism so much as a serious lack of political courage, the kind of thing that has increasingly grown to characterize the Democratic Party as a whole in recent years.  "Present" votes on thorny abortion bills are an example.  Skipping the MoveOn/Betrayus vote was another (and another case where I'm not required to buy the silly cover story).  Refusing to be photographed with Gavin Newsom in an election year is another.

    I just see spinelessness as the major problem with the Democratic Party of late, and I see Obama as bound and determined to take us further down that road.  Believe me, on the occasions when Obama decides to stand up and defend a controversial Democratic stance because it's the right thing to do, I cheer for him just as much as you do.  It just doesn't happen enough.

    Parent

    Cool. (1.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:15:45 PM EST
    I'm not asking for enthusiasm by any means.  God knows mine comes and goes (it's not really here today, BTW; I'm just killing time on a slow work day).  But this idea that Obama might compromise on abortion is so silly that it gets me riled up.

    Parent
    You're male, right? (3.50 / 2) (#178)
    by pie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:33:20 PM EST
    But this idea that Obama might compromise on abortion is so silly that it gets me riled up.

    Pardon me if I couldn't care less about your anger issue.

    Parent

    Being pro choice is being pro family (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:25:19 PM EST
    Supporting choice is not just a XX thing.  

    Parent
    I don't see the statement as anti choice (none / 0) (#189)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:08:47 PM EST
    He says he supports a womens right to choose.  Again the issue is feeling bad vs. clinically depressed.  First this is sorta a non issue, since generally speaking women who have abortions in the third trimester are doing so because 1)their health is at stake or 2) the child will will not live.  (these are wanted pregnancies that went wrong)

    But lets assume those things aren't the issue. An abortion after about week 26th week is not just a simple matter of choice.  The child has a working heart, lungs, brain, etc.  Many of children born this early die, and many more have tons of health issues, but many survive and lead very healthy lives.  Even something as significant as schizophrenia doesn't change the fact that the fetus is less fetus and more child at this point.

    Parent

    Why do you so distrust doctors (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:18:06 PM EST
    that you think that they would approve and do abortions on any basis but what the law specifies?

    Parent
    I don't distrust doctors (none / 0) (#204)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:39:24 PM EST
    I am 2 years away from being a doctor. (don't ask what type- I haven't figured that out yet:)

    Parent
    If you are a medical student (none / 0) (#214)
    by Mari on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 01:01:26 AM EST
    you have a lot to learn about medicine. Enlighten us about pregnancy and choice after you have finished your OB-GYNE rotation and you learn a little bit more about the doctor-patient relationship.

    Parent
    C'mon. Have you really missed (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:24:42 PM EST
    thread after thread on this, this week?  Let's not have another one; the host asks that we reserve blog bandwidth by not rehashing what is available via searching.

    Parent
    Exactly... (none / 0) (#220)
    by dutchfox on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:54:11 AM EST
    and that's why often TL gets tiresome!

    Parent
    Got it right (5.00 / 10) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:08:13 PM EST
    Calling right wing positions the center is erroneous. Polls indicate that the majority of American do not support telecom immunity and we want the government to use warrants. Opposition to FISA is an American issue and not a left, progressive or even Democratic position. Accurate reporting based on factual data would indicate the actual "center of public opinion" supports many of the issues that are erroneously being described as positions of the left or even "far left."  By adopting the meme that Republican positions are moderate or the "center", we are promoting a picture that our positions are outside the mainstream of public thinking (i.e. outside the norm).

    Parent
    Actually he hasn't (none / 0) (#210)
    by cal1942 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:02:43 AM EST
    moved to the center at all, just as he says.

    He's been to the right of center for some time if anyone cared to listen without degenerating into projection.

    Just as MO Blue says; Obama's positions on various issues are nowhere near the center.  An Obama Presidency would keep government in the position it's been most of the time since 1981.

    Parent

    Jeralyn, are you buying what Obama (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:49:17 PM EST
    is selling today?

    He's absolutely right (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:27:45 PM EST
    about this part: "The people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me"

    Parent
    posted the same comment further down (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:28:29 PM EST
    he has never deceived us.


    Parent
    Obama weasels like the worst: Agree 100%? Huh? (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:08:30 PM EST
    Obama blamed criticism from "my friends on the left" and "some of the media" in part on cynicism that ascribes political motives for every move candidates make. "You're not going to agree with me on 100 percent of what I think

    First of all, criticizing Obama for his stated or ever shifting positions does not catapult the critic, skeptic, doubter or person loudly going OH COME ON to being a "leftist". (Whatever the frack THAT is by today's shifting measure.)

    The issue isn't ascribing political motive NOR agreeing with him "100 percent" on his "thinking".

    It's calling him out on his LYING.

    On his saying one thing one day, and the exact OPPOSITE the next depending on the dollars he wants from the audience he is conning for their support and cash.

    It's not an intellectual argument but one of trust that he asked for in the absence of a proven record, and which he disgraced by then claiming people should have known better than to trust the likes of him.

    So, no, there's no weaseling around where the "problem" lays here. It's not with the audience but the speaker.

    Parent

    Did you catch (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:16:22 PM EST
    the fact that Obama used a "shill" to ask the question:

    The Illinois senator was responding to a question from a self-described "reformed Republican" who said he worked for Democrat Bobby Kennedy four decades ago and thanked Obama for restoring "that faith."

    "You had an interesting week of being accused of flip-flopping, which is mostly nonsense," the man said. He then asked Obama to restate his Iraq position, and Obama used the opportunity to dispel the idea he had generally changed his stances.

    AP Article Link

    I mean WOW!!! This questioner hit the Trifecta plus the bonus.

    • A reformed Republican

    • a Bobby Kennedy man

    • Obama restored his Bobby Kennedy faith

    • The bonus: Calls BS on the flip-flopping

    Did this guy miss a trick? I mean if you were cynical you'd swear he was scripted and coached on delivery by Obama himself.

    Being cynical on what I read in the article I think that is exactly what happened. Who wouldn't?

    Parent

    What A Joker Obama Is (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:57:38 PM EST
    He thinks people will buy that?!!!

    Yeah right, I'm not moving to the middle we just disagree! Sure thing.

    Obama has so many clever 'outs' one can only surmise that he is well practiced at doing this his entire life.

    I mean this kind of stuff isn't made up in a speech room by speech writers. This is Obama speaking off the cuff. These 'excuses', 'redirections', 'reframing' - call them what you want they are part of his fabric - and that is scary.

    Parent

    Yes, this is really what Obama (none / 0) (#216)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:15:29 AM EST
    is all about... using the language to reframe discusion so that he can slip and slide around issues hopefully without stepping on any toes. You don't really need spine to do that, just a lot of wormlike agility.

    What does Obama have a solid position on? Obama will fit in very nicely with the Nancy and Harry show. McCain's alternatives are frightening. Fortunately he will not be elected. But still Dems will diddle around for four years and accomplish nothing. And Bush and Cheney will snicker as they slither off FREE to dwell under the rocks they slithered out from under seven and a half years ago.

    Parent

    Obama is correct (2.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:01:06 PM EST
    Yes, he is correct in saying that "The people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me". I have closely followed what he said during the primary campaign, there has been no shift in the positions that he mentioned.
    There are many HRC supporters who think that Universal Health Care means Free Health Care. Has HRC ever said that UHC means Free Health Care? The answer is "No". If HRC won the nomination and some of her supporters became disappointed when they found out that Universal Health Care did not mean Free Health Care, would it be fair to say that HRC duped her supporters? The answer is NO! People should listen carefully to what the candidates say.


    Parent
    you have got to be kidding (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by kimsaw on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:47:14 PM EST
    this isn't about Clinton. Where's the info on people believing UHC would be free from Clinton. Trying to tie Clinton's position on UHC to Obama's flip flopping is beyond ridiculous.   He can't even keep track of what he says from moment to moment. How many times can one candidate clarify a position on how many different  subjects. It's always someone else's fault and its never Obama's words. Now its the press's fault, at least it wasn't his grandma. It's all rather ironic. His words are catching up to him.

    I've listened and heard from the very beginning, every debate and every teleprompter moment. I still don't believe a word the guy says. Sorry the bottom line is Obama doesn't like what the people who are listening have to say. Perhaps he should remember that "words matter". No pun intended.

    Parent

    Try again (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by mwb on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:53:54 PM EST
    "I am somebody who is no doubt progressive."

    Talk about politico speak.

    Come on say it, Senator.  Just say it right out loud.

    "I am a progressive."  

    You won't spontaneously combust.  Maybe your nose might grow, but we won't know until you start make direct statements.

    h/t to BTD: (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:14:36 PM EST
     
    He does not control his own statements?


    Parent
    Channelling MoDo making up a John Kerry quote (none / 0) (#170)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:43:37 PM EST
    Whom among us would doubt I'm progressive?

    Parent
    Fair enough. (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:54:32 PM EST
    On some of the issues he cites it is, in fact, true that the people who convinced themselves that Obama is a liberal messiah were kidding themselves.

    On other issues, his position is really all things to all people -- like supporting the right to bear arms and restrictions on that right.

    And on others, particularly telecom immunity, he seems be shifting his position very substantially.

    those gun postions are NOT (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:01:28 PM EST
    "all things to all people". They are, however, a pretty rational and intellegent position.

    NRA types do NOT want restrictions on guns. Hard-line anti-gun types DO NOT recognize a personal right to bear arms.

    Obama's position - that there is a personal right, and communities have the power to regulate that right, is a specific position - similar, btw, to Dean's position in '04 - which sorta became the accepted Dem position over the past few years.  

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:10:31 PM EST
    It is not a "specific position."  It is an attempt to claim all the territory other than the two extremes.

    Very few people, including "NRA types," believe that there should be a completely unfettered right to own guns.

    Distancing yourself from an extreme position that barely anyone holds in the real world ("I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything") is a very standard political gambit designed to convey the message "I'm totally mainstream, just like all of you."  But please don't be naive enough to confuse it for a specific position.  It's the exact opposite of specific.

    Parent

    it is not a traditional Democratic position (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    or the Brady Bill would have survived the latest SCOTUS review. When DiFi sponsored that bill, she held the views Democrats hold today about guns.

    By slithering around with words and phrases that are no doubt focus grouped before delivered,Obama gives the impression that he is willing to split the baby in two to get the vote.

    When Bill Clinton stood up to Newt Gingrich and it resulted in shutting the government, he stood for something. I'm that kind of Democrat, take a stand, let the chips fall where they may.

    The recent Democrats are way too timid for my tastes, and frankly I don't like it.Its Fear. D**it the Republicans did it to us!#~

    It makes Obama a disappointment to those of us who claimed Democrats and were proud of the line  that defined us from the Republicans.

    Obama's "new politics" is the way he wants it to be. Some of the 18 million that voted for Hillary don't agree - the reality based ones. His approach is the same strategy that GWB has used to have the weak government we have now, stradled with debt and loss of prestiege not to mention the people's trust.

    An example; when the Bush adminsitration called it the Clean Air initiative. It called for easing up on rules so that plants spewing junk in the air would be allowed to do so through relaxed enforcement. That meant that the air would not be cleaner but dirtier, but the name stayed. It had the desired perception but the reality was different.

    I think the image based candidate with the big bankroll, should pay attention to what this all means. He can't buy everyone's vote.

    Parent

    I think it will be more accurate (none / 0) (#152)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:11:59 PM EST
    to say that BC and HRC managed to survive Republicans instead of saying that they stood up to Republicans. Surviving is different from standing up without backing down. Surviving to fight another day is not a bad trait at all, IMO.

    Parent
    what is not specific about it, pray tell? (2.00 / 0) (#39)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:17:12 PM EST
    There are many people, not just extremists, who were against the personal right to bear arms. Including nearly half the SC.

    The NRA most certainly is opposed to almost all regulation of guns. Where have you been sleeping?

    You may think that half the SC is extreme, as are the tens of millions of loyal NRA supporters, but thats your problem. Obama's postion, and mine, occupy a very specific place on the spectrum of ideas on this subject.

    Parent

    Yes, a "very specific place" (5.00 / 6) (#56)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:27:25 PM EST
    somewhere between 0% and 100%.  Congratulations on managing to call the entire middle of the spectrum "specific."

    The NRA is not a purist organization on gun rights - check their amici brief in the Heller case if you doubt me.  Moreover, it is a serious mistake to assume that all NRA members share the exact same set of beliefs.

    For example, nearly 90% of Americans agree that it's okay to ban ex-cons or mentally ill people from owning a handgun.  Okay, Senator Obama, congratulations on establishing that you're not part of the extremist 10%!  Way to stake out a "specific position."

    The idea that Obama has a "specific position" on guns is a joke, and not a very funny one at that.  Saying "I'm not at either extreme" is not a specific position.

    Parent

    I'm getting the sense (1.00 / 1) (#164)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:48:02 PM EST
    though you dont come out and say it, that you basically agree with Obama on this issue.

    What a torturous reality. What extraordinary contortions you must go through in order to deliver the necessarily robust denunciation of him, while hiding the fact that you agree with him.

    Parent

    There's nothing to agree with!!!!!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:39:34 PM EST
    Every single person in the country, other than the extremists at the 0% or 100% end of the spectrum, "agrees" with Obama's incredibly vague position.  I can't believe you think you have a gotcha here.  It's like saying that if you believe abortion should be legal in some cases, but not in all cases, presto you agree with Obama!  Do you truly not see what a vacuous argument this is?

    Parent
    calm down Steve (2.00 / 1) (#184)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:52:58 PM EST
    Life is not one big gotcha game, and that is not my purpose here, though it does seem to be yours.

    Your claim that the postion that the 2nd amendment confers an individual right is something that almost no one holds is patently untrue. It is, rather, the standard postion for probably half the people that have ever thought about the issue. Until the recent decision, it was the reigning Constitutional interpretation, dating from a case back in the thirties. It is also the current opinion of almost half the SC. How can you state, with a straight face, that it is a very rare extreme postion?

    Seriously, I am becoming absolutely convinced that you would say absolutely anything so long as it comes out as a criticism of Obama. Your postion here is completely divorced from the real world.

    Same with community regulation of the right to bear arms. If OBama supports the Chicago laws, and thinks the DC laws (an almost absolute bar) go to far, then you have a pretty clear indication of his precise stand. It is, once again, patently absurd to claim that this is an  ubiquitous position. There are tens of millions of people who would fight to the death, and do so with their checkbooks, against the type of regulation that Obama supports. Others, like almost all the pols in DC City, support very strict regulation, without any recognition of the right to bear arms.

    When you combine these two positions, the number of people who hold both is even smaller.

    I dont know why you are pursuing this argument - it really seems totally ludicrous.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#186)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:04:56 PM EST
    Could you link to the post where I say that the individual right position is extreme?  Don't spend the rest of your life looking for it, you won't find it.

    What I said is that the position that there can be no restrictions whatsoever on the right to bear arms is an extreme position.  I gave the example of how nearly 90% of Americans agree that it is permissible to bar ex-felons and the mentally ill from owning a gun.  I think it was pretty flippin' obvious from that example that I was arguing the "no restrictions whatsoever" position is extreme, not that I was arguing the basic individual right position is extreme.

    Obama is saying nothing more than that he disagrees with both extremes in the debate, both the "guns should be completely banned" extreme and the "there should be no restrictions whatsoever" extreme.  He is saying nothing more than that.  It is exactly the same as saying that abortion should be legal in some cases but not all.

    Trying to claim that I agree with Obama because I, like most Americans, am somewhere between the two extremes of the debate is such a stupid argument I can't believe you are continuing to push it.  Guess what, we all agree that war is wrong in some cases, and that war is justified in other cases.  Hooray, we all agree on the war issue!

    Parent

    yes, sorry (none / 0) (#191)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:27:51 PM EST
    I miswrote that. Of course, your position is that the lack of an individual right is extreme. Obama upholds an individual right, and you claim that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone agrees with that. Only extremists disagree. Thats patently wrong, as I explained after that mistake.

    And of course, pointing to the fact that even an NRA member might want to keep guns out of the hands of a psychotic mass murderer is hardly relevant to this discussion. The issue is whether the level of restrictions on guns that Obama says he supports is at anything near a 90% level. I really cant beleive that you beleive that.

    Do you agree that there is an individual right to bear arms? If not, you disagree with Obama. Does that make you an extremist? Careful, I betcha that the majority of people 'round here reject the individual right.
    If you do agree there is such a right, then you agree with Obama, and disagree with tens of millions of Americans.

    Do you support the type of gun control that Obama is on record supporting? If so, then you are disagreeing with tens of millions of Americans.

    And they are not the same tens of millions as in the earlier question.
    Your claim that Obamas position represents what 99% (or some large number like that) of Americans believe is completely ridiculous. And I sense you know that.

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:42:28 PM EST
    In an earlier age, people might have saddled up the horse and buggy and traveled from miles around just to gaze upon your disaster of an argument.

    Saying that you're not at either extreme of the gun debate is not a specific position, or a position at all, no matter how many times you claim otherwise.  It's something a politician says to duck the issue and try to get everyone to believe that he agrees with them.  

    Saying that you believe a total ban on handguns is constitutional, and then turning around and saying that the earlier statement was inartful and of course you believe in a right to bear arms, is a change of position no matter how many supporters try to rationalize it.

    And arguing that someone who is somewhere between the two extremes is trying to run from the fact that he "agrees" with Obama, because Obama is also  somewhere between the two extremes, is weaselly and I wish I could say I expected better from you.

    Parent

    He's actually been pretty consistent (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:23:25 PM EST
    on guns. He takes a decentralizing approach - that restrictions should be locally appropriate and locally imposed. It isn't enough for the NRA but it's pragmatic enough to appeal to most other people.

    His FISA position is a real outlier. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the existing leadership who've been compromised by their actions on this all along really really want this bill. Who knows - maybe their support for him in the primaries was premised on his agreeing not to rock the boat on it.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:41:05 PM EST
    aside from that questionnaire in the 90s (the one filled out by an anonymous aide without his knowledge, that didn't express his true position) and the statement from his office that "the DC gun ban is constitutional" (which was also made by an anonymous aide, and also didn't express his true position) yeah, he's pretty much been on board with the mainstream Dem position on guns.

    Parent
    Is that inconsistent? (none / 0) (#111)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:07:55 PM EST
    He said he's long believed in the individual right to bear arms and that the locality, DC, could pass the restrictions it needed to meet local needs and conditions. Nothing inconsistent at all in that that I can see. Maybe you'd care to point out where the inconsistency is instead of just lazily insinuating that there is one.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:15:13 PM EST
    if the statement that the DC gun ban is constitutional wasn't inconsistent with his current position, why did he feel the need to take it back?

    Frankly, I understand that the standard Democratic position is to give localities the flexibility they need to deal with their own circumstances, but I think extending that to say "it's fine if a locality wants to ban handguns altogether" is going a little too far - as Obama's current stand recognizes.  If Democrats are going to play this game in order to gain some credibility with pro-gun voters, I don't think they can ever be on board with a complete ban on handguns.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#125)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:25:58 PM EST
    Acknowledging that the SC has now ruled that a total ban is unconstitutional is not being inconsistent, it's accepting reality. Pre-Heller, not unconstitutional (his opinion and his preference), post-Heller, acknowledging what the court has ruled. What do you expect him to do, keep insisting a total ban is constitutional now that the SC has ruled it isn't?

    Parent
    Oh, come on! (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:32:38 PM EST
    He felt entirely free to disagree with the SC about the death penalty.  He was free to disagree with it about the DC handgun ban and explicitly said he did not.

    The pretzel-making around here is getting pretty amazing.


    Parent

    Because Heller (none / 0) (#147)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:00:33 PM EST
    didn't close the door on his existing position, as Scalia made quite clear himself - the question was the breadth of that particular restriction. His response was specifically on that point, that the DC restriction had been ruled to be too broad and more carefully crafted restrictions now have to be devised.

    I'm not saying no political positioning was going on in his response, but if you're looking for pretzels all you'll see is pretzels.

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:37:37 PM EST
    He wasn't a news reporter informing us what the Supreme Court had ruled, he was stating his newfound position on gun control.  In fact, he had no problem whatsoever saying the Supreme Court got it wrong in the child rape case, so the argument that "gosh, he's bound by what the Supreme Court ruled" hardly holds water.  I guess that was like 24 hours previously or something, though, so I see why this would be different.

    If you understand the facts of what Obama said on the gun ban and you still want to argue that he didn't change his stance, you're through the looking glass and I'm not going to go there with you.  But understand this is the sort of argument that gets people around here infuriated with Obama supporters, because they seem to be creating their own reality just like the Bushies.

    Parent

    Newfound? (2.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:07:52 PM EST
    I took it as a pragmatic acceptance that the SC has ruled on the extent of the ban and that since even Scalia himself left avenues all around the ruling for local regulation one can shrug and still get to the local results needed without making a fuss. I don't know how you can read his statements as any less. I think he missed an opportunity to move the window on the gun issue, and critiqued him for that, but to say "you're through the looking glass if you think he didn't change his position" - well, all I can say is to say that you seem to be pretty far through the looking glass yourself and creating your own reality like the Bushies. (Do you like it when I say your nasty words back to you?)

    Parent
    Shrug (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:45:19 PM EST
    It bothers me exactly as much as Jonah Goldberg arguing that liberals are the real fascists, a statement with equal credibility.

    Kinda funny how you're trying to claim there has been no change in Obama's position from an earlier statement that Obama himself rejected.

    Parent

    I find your argument very peculiar (none / 0) (#212)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:20:57 AM EST
    Saying he believed before the ruling that the DC ban was constitutional is in no way contradicted by what he said after the ruling:

    "I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through common-sense, effective safety measures. The Supreme Court has now endorsed that view, and while it ruled that the D.C. gun ban went too far, Justice Scalia himself acknowledged that this right is not absolute and subject to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe. Today's ruling, the first clear statement on this issue in 127 years, will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country.

    "As President, I will uphold the constitutional rights of law-abiding gun-owners, hunters, and sportsmen. I know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together to enact common-sense laws, like closing the gun show loophole and improving our background check system, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Today's decision reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe."

    He's putting his pragmatic view forward that it changes nothing for his position. I see NO change in position in terms of his approach to the issue. Do you see him embracing that ruling? I don't. I see him saying it's not going to make one whit of difference.  

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#218)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:44:21 AM EST
    I don't think you can believe both in an individual right to bear arms and in the right of government to enact a total handgun ban.

    The ruling certainly made a heck of a difference in DC, not to mention any other locality that might have considered passing a total handgun ban.

    Parent

    I would expect him to say that he disagreed (none / 0) (#145)
    by sassysenora on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:45:51 PM EST
    with the Supreme Court's decision.

    given Obama's recent statements, was Obama's spokesperson being less than truthful when he told the Chicago Tribune that "Obama believes the D.C. handgun law is constitutional"? was Obama being less than truthful when he said "The notion that somehow local jurisdictions can't initiate gun safety laws to deal with gang bangers and random shootings on the street isn't born out by our Constitution,"? was he being less than truthful when he "voiced support for the District of Columbia's ban on handguns"

    if the above are true, why did he tell ABC News "Well, Charlie, I confess I obviously haven't listened to the briefs and looked at all the evidence." (i.e., I'm not going to answer your question)? shouldn't he have known about the case before having a spokesperson say that Obama thought the DC ban was constitutional or saying that he supported the DC ban?

    now Obama says that "I don't know what my aide said but I've been very consistent. . ..  in fact what I've been saying consistently is what the Supreme Court essentially said today."

    Obama has NOT consistently been saying that he is opposed to the DC gun ban or that it is unconstitutional.  

    lawyers and politicians often say that they think the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution is wrong. I.e., that something the SC thinks is unconstitutional is, in fact, constitutional. or that something that the SC thinks is constitutional is, in fact, unconstitutional. it's part of their responsibility, especially as a Senator and President. i expect Obama to actually be consistent and say that he disagrees with the Supreme Court ruling because he supports the DC ban. he can say that, as president, he'd enforce the Supreme Court ruling even though he disagrees with it. that's what the POTUS (or candidates for POTUS) usually do when they disagree with a SCOTUS ruling.

    Parent

    You seem to be saying (2.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:31:57 PM EST
    you think the fact that he believed the DC ban was constitutional and then recognized it was unconstitutional after it was ruled that way is some sort of lie/ flipflop/ inconsistency on his part. Heller doesn't keep local jurisdictions from initiating gun safety laws and other restrictions, as Scalia himself said.

    How about that Obama sees the ruling has no significant impact on his base position, that localities can set their own restrictions (now short of the most extreme position, outright ban in the home)?

    Parent

    Pure speculation (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:43:09 PM EST
    But still an interesting thought.

    I've always wondered if there were some dirty Dems afraid of being caught up in an impeachment drag net.

    Parent

    Except. . . (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:52:21 PM EST
    that restrictions should be locally appropriate and locally imposed.

    that his current position (not the original one) on the DC ban goes against your view of his position on guns.

    And, in fact, his statements are general enough that they could either encompass or oppose the DC gun ban -- and Obama has, within the last few months, held both those positions.

    Parent

    I think you're wrong about that (none / 0) (#155)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:18:58 PM EST
    his current position (not the original one) on the DC ban goes against your view of his position on guns

    Can you give me a link to what you mean specifically?

    Parent

    Actually his musings on the "crisis" in (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:01:14 PM EST
    Social security was another outlier for me. Yesterday there was a long discussion here on it and I learned a lot.  Then we had another outlier with the abortion issue when he said a woman should make the decision with her physician, pastor and family members. Sort of like a committee heavily populated with men.  The outliers are looking like stars in the sky at night.

    Parent
    Well, let's acknowledge that many of us (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:25:09 PM EST
    have women ministers.  But yeh, I'm not sure that Obama thinks so.

    Parent
    Correct... (none / 0) (#222)
    by dutchfox on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 03:08:18 AM EST
    his position is really all things to all people

    Bill Clinton, the "people pleaser," did the same thing.

    Parent

    Look (5.00 / 12) (#6)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:54:59 PM EST
    I am just not going to buy that some anonymous aide from Obama's campaign decided on his own initiative to say "Obama thinks the DC gun ban is constitutional," and that the campaign never saw fit to correct that for however many months until it suddenly became "inartful" in light of the Supreme Court's ruling.

    No one is fooled by all these "nuanced" positions that Democrats always adopt in an attempt to find common ground with every single person in existence.  "Gee, I believe government can do good things, but I'm not one of those people who believes government is the solution to everything!"  Well golly Senator Obama, who IS one of those people, aside from cartoonish caricatures of liberals you might find on the Rush Limbaugh show?

    Look, say whatever you think you gotta do to get elected, I'm not foolish enough to expect different.  Just don't insult my intelligence along the way by pretending that you're not doing it.

    Has anyone noticed (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Landulph on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:24:43 PM EST
    that in his rhetoric since clinching the nom, Obama is doing what Bill Clinton was (largely unfairly) accused of: creating a straw-man caricautre of "lib'ruls" derived from right-wing propaganda mill sources, which phantom he can then distance himself from to appear "moderate" (by the village barometer). In doing this, he is simply reinforcing right-wing frames. Hard to believe Lakoff is supporting this guy.

    Parent
    I do believe that Obama will stand firm (5.00 / 11) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:55:30 PM EST
    on his faith based initiative program and that religion will be stressed as much if not more in his administration than it was in the Bush administration.

    It is sad that while I have major doubts that he will stand firm on issues that are important to me,  I'm convinced he will remain constant on an issue I oppose 100%.

     

    "I Believe In Faith" (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by MsExPat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:19:30 PM EST
    Yeah, this part of his speech is right out of the Reagan-Bush hymnal:

    "I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything. I also believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in faith."

    Government can't solve our problems--check
    It's your responsibility, get tough you get no help from the government (unless you're a mortgage bank or a telecom)--check
    Confidential to evangelicals: I believe in an awesome God!--check

    (Speaking of that last one, how does one "believe" in "faith"? Think about it. It's an empty phrase. One has, or doesn't have faith. )

    Parent

    Yikes, I missed that -- thanks (none / 0) (#158)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:26:33 PM EST
    as it's a perfect example to use with my students, when I try to get them to stop writing such silliness.

    Parent
    I'm trying to figure out what believing in faith (none / 0) (#174)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:59:40 PM EST
    means--faith is believing without proof, right?

    So, what does it mean to believe in beleiving without proof?

    Or, is he using faith to mean his religious belief; ergo, he can believe in his belief.

    faith--Noun

    1. strong belief in something, esp. without proof
    2. a specific system of religious beliefs
    3. complete confidence or trust, such as in a person or remedy
    4. allegiance to a person or cause
    5. bad faith dishonesty
    6. good faith honesty [Latin fides trust, confidence]

    Words, just words....

    Parent
    "Faith is the substance (none / 0) (#217)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:44:21 AM EST
    of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen." But this is not the issue. The issue is the separation of Church and State. Faith based Initiatives is fundamentally wrong. It gets government involved with questions of who should get how much and for what purposes. This breeds corruption in both the government and religious groups.

    Parent
    Well, MO Blue (5.00 / 0) (#150)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:03:39 PM EST
    He didn't sit in that church for 20 years for nothing.

    Parent
    and yet (5.00 / 0) (#172)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:52:42 PM EST
    somehow he seemed to miss some pretty provocative sermons.

    Quite the puzzler there.

    The impression Sentor Obama leaves me with is that he seems to have the sae problem wth being truthful that our present President seems to have. Then again, that's what happens when you choose the strategy to try to be all things to all people, instead of being who you are and leting the chips fall where they may.

    Parent

    I think he's always been center (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:56:13 PM EST
    It's the "change" I've never bought into. But he's no more center than anyone else. As between centrist candidates, since Hillary isn't the nominee, he's the best we are going to do. I'm okay with it and him.

    My preference would be an electable candidate with Kucinich's views. That just isn't in the cards.

    Back when I was in college (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:58:12 PM EST
    there was a local candidate who ran on the slogan, "No Worse Than The Rest."  Of course he won.

    Parent
    As lomg as people keep accepting (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:04:12 PM EST
    mediocre candidates by voting for them, the worse they are going to get.

    And if we don't get serious about public financing, the only candidates we will have will be fund-raising behemoths, who also happen to be mediocre.

    Parent

    He got all the college kids (none / 0) (#219)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:53:39 AM EST
    in astonishing numbers by the millions all across the country through the use of digital toys and he did it all with slogans and jingles. What a testament to our time.

    go team go, go team go, go team go, USA, USA, USA, yes we can, yes we can, yes we can...

    The problem is, this isn't a football game. This is out country's future at stake.

    Parent

    I'm waiting for the "I'm the Lesser (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:28:00 PM EST
    of Two Evils" campaign poster.  I hear it often enough as an argument -- much as I still can't figure out why it's okay to be evil at all, even if less so.  Evil is evil.  And petty evil is the most insiduous.

    Parent
    I'm on board for an electable Kucinich-thinker (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by RosieScenario on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:13:05 PM EST
    Keep hope alive.

    Parent
    You, too? Every time I took (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:31:35 PM EST
    one of those polls to see to which candidate I was closest, it was Kucinich.  When that would come up in conversation with colleagues, some were quite surprised.  But my spouse and others who know me better were not surprised at all.

    That just told me how much some people misread many of us based on superficial characteristics and/or what they want to see.

    Parent

    I've always put O in the Mod-Lib (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:04:01 PM EST
    category, moderately liberal on most key issues.  Lately he's been emphasizing, or refining in some instances, the moderate part of his political profile.

    But as someone has wisely noted elsewhere, he misstepped today in his remarks about moving to the center.

    1. Don't restate your opponent's accusation.  It just re-enforces the false meme.

    2. Don't deny it -- that tends to make him look weak and too defensive.  Maybe there's some there there, folks might conclude.

    3. With a Major League Flip-Flopper like McCain as an opponent, he should be spending his time going after McCain's numerous and objectively incontrovertible flip-flops.  Attack the other guy -- make him defend.

    Otherwise, imo most of the recent flop flippery against O involves (excepting FISA) some pretty marginal stuff, for the most part.  Carving out or re-emphasizing some differences with the liberal base on some fairly mid-level stuff.  In the end, it probably won't be even close to fatal for his chances, though he needs to stop now and begin restating and asserting his more progressive stances, starting with the economy.

    I remain confident about our chances and for fairly major change next year.

    Oui, nous pouvons ...

    Parent

    Center-Right (4.88 / 9) (#24)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:07:43 PM EST
    I  think Obama is actually a Center-Right candidate.  His initial economic stimulus stressed tax cuts far more than Clinton's (center or a bit center-left as a candidate) and Edwards' (center-left this year).  His healthcare does not include mandates and is not truly universal (it's centrist at best, being less progressive than either mandates or single-payer).  His embrace of right-wing framing on abortion rights, praise for Republican presidents (remember his promise to return us to the foreign policy of Reagan, Nixon and Kennedy?), praise for deregulation, and his use of Christian faith also tend towards the right more than the center or center-left.

    It wasn't that many years ago that Obama would've fit comfortably into the Republican party except for the color of his skin (no small matter, of course).  I'd say he would've been right at home in the party under Eisenhower or Ford.  

    Basically, under Obama/Reid/Pelosi/Daschle we have the choice between a center-right party or a far-right party.  In a Democratic year, that's damned depressing.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#89)
    by oneangryslav on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:43:43 PM EST
    But the media the whole political establishment will never allow a Kucinich to inhabit the White House.

    I'm a supporter of Obama not because he's a messiah, but because out of the whole bunch he's the least bad.  Plus, I think that he's ultimately a decent person, which I can't say about many of those running for office.

    Parent

    I may vote (none / 0) (#221)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 03:00:11 AM EST
    for Obama. I have not yet decided. But I simply cannot support him. I have not yet gotten over Hillary. Then again, I haven't gotten over Kerry or Gore either.

    Parent
    I'm shocked (none / 0) (#123)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:23:17 PM EST
    Kuchinich is borderline marxist.

    Parent
    When a candidate has to keep (5.00 / 12) (#11)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:58:01 PM EST
    making these kinds of statements, it might be a big, fat clue that he or she has lost control of the message.

    I think he is going to be looking back fondly on the days when all that was needed to silence the (what was then minimally) negative media was the simple issuance of a statement to reporters; I think the days of "Oh, okay, Barack - whatever you say!" are over.

    And he's totally unprepared for it.

    I'm starting to feel like we're on the highway, traffic is backed up, and up ahead we can see the flashing lights that tell us there's been an accident.  The closer we get, the more we can see that it was a bad one.  We swear we won't look, but we do.  And then we're really sorry we did.

    Spot on. That's what I saw (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:13:25 PM EST
    with the mishandling of the Wes Clark statement -- that Obama had been made to go off message, just at the time of what was to be a major speech and more.

    I despise Rove, but he was absolutely correct about staying on the message, the message, the message.

    Parent

    we don't know all the politics that (none / 0) (#192)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:32:56 PM EST
    really went on behind the clark saga. some of us suppose that clark did it on purpose in order to remove himself from this situation. others have supposed that the dem leaders who are anti clinton used it to remove him from any influence.

    whatever the intention it was badly handled by the obama campaign. that stands out to me.

    Parent

    Not knowing the politics behind it (none / 0) (#200)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:23:02 PM EST
    is not relevant to my comment -- there always will be politics behind, well, a political campaign.  And I read through all the guessing here.

    The politics in front of the cameras were poor, we agree.

    Parent

    the message! that is the case! (none / 0) (#207)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:35:57 PM EST
    i along with others am curious but that isn't really the issue i know. i'm tired tonight and had a long day, so my mind is wandering around.

    Parent
    I don't watch the political news, I rubberneck it (5.00 / 0) (#168)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:39:36 PM EST
    I've finally got a sense of peace with my declaration of political Independence.

    I did everything a good citizen, good Liberal and a good Dem was supposed to do.

    I got continually scr*wed not just by the right wing criminals in office but, unbeknownst to me until they finally 'fessed up after taking Congress in '06, with the enthusastic assistance of my own party.

    And now they dump an impending disaster like Obama out there.

    It's nice not having to be guilted with the ridiculous ploy that if I don't behave righteously, the Dems can no longer scr*w me over in lavish peaceful comfort.

    Argh, what a heartless b!tch I am and what a nightmare for them.

    I'm Indy, I'm enjoying my peace and prosperity, I'm a mere spectator.

    Parent

    Ah, I wrrote something about the serenity (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:28:11 PM EST
    weeks ago, so similar to this.  Politics as a spectator sport is quite different for a longtime activist like me.  And quite maddening for others around me who just cannot become accustomed to my new 'tude toward it, in which every candidate and every party and every stupidity is open game now, no need to defend any fools anymore.

    Several sibs in my very political family found it so frustrating to try to irk me that I finally told them to stop messing with my serenity and to stop emailing.  Of course, it took one of the males to make the other males lissen up at last and stop at all.  As I pointed out, of course.

    The peace that comes from only discussing personal matters and not political matters with those who remain so involved in partisan ways -- well, it's wonderful.  Go to the garden with me. :-)

    Parent

    He probably thinks it's true (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:05:12 PM EST
    He hasn't moved to the right. (Unless you consider public financing, abortion rights, Fisa) It's just unfortunate that people didn't see he never was the progressive they thought he was.

    But Has He Really Changed? (5.00 / 10) (#38)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:15:12 PM EST
    I always thought it was obvious he was lying on public financing, which made it so infuriating when he and others attacked Hillary for being honest and saying she wouldn't unilaterally disarm.  He's never spoken out strongly for abortion rights or risked any political capital whatsoever to protect them.  He's always used wishy-washy language (a woman generally has the right to control her body, etc.) and right-wing framing on the issue.  He has a decent voting record when he bothers to actually vote yes or no, but as the John Roberts story shows that appears to be mostly driven by his desire to be President, which required winning the Democratic nomination, and not any strong principles.  As for FISA, I never thought he had any true dog in the fight and it was posturing necessary for the nomination.  Now that he's the presumptive nominee, no need to posture.  

    Besides which, he's always indicated that everything is up for compromise, that's what his bipartisan schtick is ultimately about.  His entire campaign was built on the promise of change by working with Republicans, that implies a certain, er, flexibility.  

    None of what's happened in the last few weeks should surprise anyone who has been paying attention.  This is who Obama is.  It's who he was in January and it's who he is now - a center-right politician who compromises with the GOP.  A 2002 speech doesn't change that.

    Parent

    Flexibility is a generous noun to use (5.00 / 6) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:30:35 PM EST
    I agree that from the first there were numerous indications that Obama would be willing to cede a great deal of ground to the Republicans to be able to have bright and shiny bipartisan creds. Many times Obama told the truth only to have supporters and the media play WORM with his statements, adding words and meanings to his original comments until they could massage them into the position that they wanted him to have. These same people were more than happy to allow Obama to later "refine" his position with a few additional words or meanings to convince themselves that these slight modifications proved their interpretation.

    Parent
    Nah, he didn't lie about (none / 0) (#114)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:12:54 PM EST
    public financing, at least as promises go with most pols.  It was a carefully caveated and narrowly drawn promise, though overall a little short on emphasizing the vital importance for not unilaterally disarming or otherwise giving up a huge Demo advantage in the fundraising dept.

    Yeah, he wanted to appear as embracing public financing -- what Dem pol wouldn't -- but he didn't outright lie when you look at the actual promise made.

    As for hyperbolic characterizations of him as "center-right", please, let's leave that for the Dems in our party with an actual track record which puts them much closer to center-right, or Lieberman territory.

    Parent

    Gotta tell ya (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:24:45 PM EST
    This kind of legalistic defense is no more acceptable than Bush saying "hey, the British government really DID say that Saddam had sought uranium from Africa, even though we knew they were wrong about it!"  Bottom line, he meant to create an impression that he would take public financing, and the fact that he technically left himself some wiggle room with clever language really isn't an excuse.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say it makes him look less trustworthy to people than if he had simply broken his pledge period, so I'd suggest you take it easy on offering up this defense.

    Parent
    Well I'm just shocked I tell you (none / 0) (#128)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:36:37 PM EST
    to find out that our candidate is leaving himself some wiggle room!

    My oh my!  What will the people at Common Cause have to say about this outrage!  And by a politician of all people!!!

    Quick, someone better call the self-satisfied pol watchers at CNN, those busy body so-called reporters who are personning the Keeping 'Em Honest desk ...

    Parent

    Just saying (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:29:03 PM EST
    wiggle room works if you are drafting a legal contract and want to leave a loophole.  It doesn't really work in the political arena, because people know what you promised.  You didn't address my point, which is that it makes you look less trustworthy in the end if people realize that you deliberately choose your words to leave loopholes.

    Parent
    Speaking from injured pride (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:05:20 PM EST
    IMO is not necessarily the best way to deal with Obama's most sour GE development thus far.

    He believes in UHC?! (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:05:40 PM EST
    coulda fooled me . . . .

    Politico-speak... (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:07:10 PM EST
    he "believes" in it, but doesn't promote legislation that will make it happen.

    Parent
    And uses Republican tactics (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:09:48 PM EST
    to trash it's chances . . .

    Parent
    There is nothing Republican-like in the (3.25 / 4) (#45)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:19:55 PM EST
    grassroots movement that Obama has created.  If you truly want to see Hillary's version of UHC, I think it would be prudent to put forth your ideas in a productive way.  That is, participate in the platform discussion instead of just criticizing the candidate.

    JMO, but I think this is a good time to move forward and focus on the issues we want our candidate and party to represent and support.  

    Parent

    Excuse me BUT (5.00 / 7) (#62)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:30:53 PM EST
    Reviving the Harry and Louise ads was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT REPUBLICAN.

    And I will criticize him for that all I want, TYVM.

    Parent

    Absolutely. I was stunned to see (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:33:34 PM EST
    people I know who know a lot about the '90s debate and the Harry and Louise ads but completely denied, even when given the evidence, that Obama could do that.  It was despicable.  (Was that when Clinton, correctly, called him out at last with the "Shame on you, Obama"?)

    Parent
    Yup. On NAFTA also (5.00 / 5) (#74)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:38:43 PM EST
    He trotted H&L out a couple of times. She called him on it I believe, but it wasn't until her anger in Ohio that it got attention.

    I'm STILL furious abut it. It was a VERY clear message on where he stands. And then we had good ol' Kerry step up and confirm it.

    Parent

    That's exactly when she did it and (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by vicndabx on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:39:40 PM EST
    rightfully so.  It was blatant fear-mongering of the type the republicans do so well.

    Parent
    No he doesn't believe in UHC (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:17:13 PM EST
    as proven by the fact that his plan is not universal. He uses those words (just words) to fool people into believing that he is offering them UHC when he is not. Of course, if he becomes president and people do not get UHC, he can always say that he has not changed his position and he would be then telling the truth. It is the label he choses to describe his program that is intentionally not the truth.

    Parent
    With Hillary out of the picture, (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Jim J on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:06:15 PM EST
    this guy is really shrinking, isn't he? He's been playing defense literally since the day she suspended her campaign. Apparently he is nothing without the Clintons as a foil.

    Where is the transcendant colossus of the left who was going to usher in a new realignment? I'm not surprised that he is marginalizing himself, I'm only surprised at the speed and energy with which he is doing so.

    what planet are you living on JIm? (2.75 / 4) (#30)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:11:13 PM EST
    Lemme guess. You get all your news from blogs? Right? Sounds like it.

    Obama is on a roll. Since Hillary left the race, he has gone from about 270 to 320+ in all the electoral vote polling counts. He has gone from being roughly even with McCain to a solid 6 pt lead that shows up in almost every poll (except the ones that show him with a double digit lead).

    The "transcendent colossus" of the left is in the process of building that very realignment that we all have been working for. Well, some of it. I think you need to get out a bit more.

    Parent

    And where do you get your news, (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:14:02 PM EST
    oh mighty Tben?

    LOL!

    Parent

    Um... newspapers, I bet. (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:21:20 PM EST
    Consistent 6 point lead... aggregate of state polls has him well over 300 EVs right now... there's nothing inaccurate in tben's post.  You can argue that it's not a durable lead, but you can't argue that he hasn't gained ground since Clinton dropped out.

    Parent
    Um, Pegasus? (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:47:55 PM EST
    What do you make of the fact that he is losing a lot of ground among Hillary's voters? You know, the Democratic base?

    Did you not see that CNN story?

    I can, indeed, accurately argue that he is losing ground among Democrats.

    As for those polls, they are laughable. I saw Hominid Views too. Ohio and Pennsylvania will not go Obama's way. It's ludicrous to think so. As soon as the Rethugs start their 527 attacks, Obama will be toast. They are holding their fire until after the convention, as they always do. Remember when the Swift Boaters came out? Gosh, it was August, wasn't it?

    Parent

    Only surprise:TeamObi's Rahm's NewDems' surprise (5.00 / 4) (#163)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:46:53 PM EST
    What's with these peoople anyways? They initiated the "divorce" from unneeded voters -- the bitter, white, women over 30, the clingy, the stoopids, fill in your butt du jour of fauxgressive jokes, blah blah blah -- and not only dissed these groups but bragged, on the record, of substantial replacements.

    And additionally, Obama was going to bound across the aisle and out and out charisma those suckers into uniting with his @ss.

    I genuinely don't understand what their f*cking problem is, why they keep bothering non-supporters, why they keep pestering and insulting people who aren't clapping for this fraud who just admitted he's as bad as the worst of them.

    We were discarded. We went our separate ways. I'm looking at options to stay engaged and promote the issues I believe in. "Being a Democrat" isn't a core issue for me. "Constitutional rights" is.

    Speaking for myself only, relying on Obama or the Dems never paid off in the past. It's jeopardizing constitutional rights in the immediate present. To me that's a huge red flag that any individual who would do this NOW won't restore lost rights and damaged institutions in the future.

    Parent

    many people haven't been paying attention to (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:05:29 PM EST
    candidate Obama or McCain until after September and a 6 pt. lead can't be comforting because its too close to the 3-4% margin of error and leaves him with a 2% edge which is enough allow McSame to think he has a very good chance, especially if the VP proves to give either candidate the boost he needs to pull away. Its still anybody's race.

    Obama isn't doing himself any favors by parsing words and positions. Some people won't be fooled.

    Parent

    if a Voter is starting (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:36:34 PM EST
    to pay close attention to the GE -- or any attention at all, actually -- and the Candidates, their first impression of Obama is one who needs to "refine" his "inartful" statements as well as someone who's on defense.  As of yet, they have no clue what, exactly, he would do for them as President or who, exactly, he is.  Other than being the first AA to run for President and NOT being McCain, what does he bring to the table for the average Voter?  

    McCain -- rightly or wrongly -- is already gifted with the "cultural shorthand", I call it, that most are aware of of being a POW who's a "straight talker".  And many voters won't look much farther than that.  It's clear and easy and makes a good Media Narrative:  from POW to President.

    But ask people about Obama and you might hear "hope and change" and "first AA to run for President" or "flip-flopped on FISA" (as that's been in the news lately).  That's if you don't get a blank stare and a "I don't know much about him yet".

    If you're the DNC and people STILL don't know much about your guy -- other than he seems to always be correcting what he just said --, there's a problem.

    Parent

    I believe (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by Jane in CA on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:35:26 PM EST
    he is referring to electoral-vote.com, where Obama is awarded electoral votes in states where the polls appear to indicate that he is statistically tied with McCain (Colorado for Obama based on a 3 point lead in the latest poll?  Uh-huh. Very Convincing).

    Parent
    my guess is (1.00 / 1) (#126)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:28:47 PM EST
    the back of the Kool-Aid package.

    But I could be wrong.  

    ;-)

    Parent

    from as many sources as I can (none / 0) (#42)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:19:23 PM EST
    with blogs being, in my opinion, just about the least reliable ones.

    To the specific question at hand, I am looking at all the polls that have come out - and what they are saying, rather than the opinions, thrice removed from any empircal data - that get bandied about in places like this.

    Parent

    A Realignment To What End? (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:19:49 PM EST
    More faith-based robbing of the taxpayers?  More surveillance and authoritarianism?  More wishy-washyness on reproductive rights?  

    What's the point of a Democratic realignment if it continues many of the same policies we have now only with some of the rougher edges gone.  Kind of a hollow victory isn't it?  

    And don't tell me about all the great things the party is going to do next year but they just can't tell me about it right now.  I learned a long time ago that when you see who politicians pander to, pay attention.  When they tell you what they will do, pay attention.  Because that's usually who they care about and what they will do.

    Parent

    You should study history more (2.66 / 3) (#69)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:36:37 PM EST
    Look at, for example, the 80s. Look at the issues that were argued in the 1980 campaign. And what subsequently happened.

    The bottom line is that we are now, as then, entering a new political era. Some of the pressing progressive priorities, like universal health care and the war, will be addressed immediatly. But the real historical change will come about simply by the fact that for 8 years, at least, Washington DC will be alive with progressive Democrats - in control of the Hill and all the committees, in control of all the executive departments. Thousands upon thousands of Democrats in positions of responsibility and power. They collectivly, far more than any one leader, will define this new progressive era. The intellectual ferment in the capital will all be driven by and shaped by liberal Democrats. People might make field trips down to South Carolina to remind themselves what a Republican looks like.

    It will be a glorious time to be alive, intellectually, and a progressive. It will be our time to actually shape the course of events for the near future.

    Even if you set aside all the specific policy priorities (which is an absurd thing to do - Obama is EVERY BIT as progressive as Clinton ever was - and on this I profoundly disagree with your assessment) - but even if you ignore that, the effect of our winning in November will change this country forever, in more ways than can be counted.

    Parent

    Progressive Utopia? (5.00 / 5) (#100)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:55:26 PM EST
    The entire world economy is heading for a painful realignment due to:

    The Credit Crisis
    and
    Rapidly Increasing Fuel Prices
    which are worsening
    The Food Crisis
    and who knows what
    Climate Change
    will do in the coming millenia?

    I want a leader who has a clue, can see the big picture, can think beyond the next election, uses facts and science and can shake off the influence of Moneyed Interests.

    Obama, the DNC and the current Dem leadership do not fit the bill.  IMO.

    Parent

    I could not disagree more (2.00 / 1) (#161)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:38:36 PM EST
    I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I think Obama will turn out to be as good a president, based on your criteria, as you could hope for.

    Parent
    We're All in for a Surprise,... (5.00 / 4) (#180)
    by santarita on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:39:15 PM EST
    I'm afraid.  With so little of a record to go by, we can only guess what Pres. Obama will do.  So far his explanations of his positions on FISA and on the mental health exception for late term abortions don't give me a lot of confidence in his "progressive" stands.  And his decision to give a major speech on  his faith-based initiative doesn't give me a good feeling about the direction he's headed in.  I don't think he's got a handle on the major problems facing us like the economy, global warming, energy  or foreign policy which may be why he elected to give major speeches on faith and patriotism.

    Parent
    tben, you need to get a very good (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:39:08 PM EST
    book on the new deal and learn from it. after that please come back and share with us. thanks

    Parent
    Some of Us (5.00 / 4) (#196)
    by Jane in CA on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:57:29 PM EST
    lived through the eighties, and your glorification of that "political era" is as ugly and offensive to us as the glorification of the "Hoover Policy" (or lack thereof) would have been to folks standing in foodlines in 1932.  Perhaps you should study up on your history.

    It is largely because of the Clintonian safeguards implemented in the nineties that you and your contemporaries will never experience the insults, indignities, and privations that young working class adults, and other marginalized demographics, suffered during the Reagan administration.

    Parent

    If referring to electoral-vote.com, then (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:45:14 PM EST
    don't just click on and click away.  Count.

    Subtract the 80 "barely Dem" EC delegate votes from the total, and Obama is at 240, 30 short of the needed number.

    Those of us who watched that site in the previous election know that the "barely" states, with Obama and McCain only a point or two apart, ought not be counted on by reasonable people.  Far better -- and less biased this year -- are the sites that do not state such a simple total but do the math in terms of solid red or blue states vs. tossup states.

    I.e., with Obama at 240, it's still quite a tossup.

    Parent

    Oh, my (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:05:05 PM EST
    He should be 20 points ahead and pulling away.  It's a Democratic year, McCain and the republicans have barely started to campaign, and he's struggling to maintain a 5 point lead?

    Parent
    there just happens to be an (none / 0) (#208)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:39:05 PM EST
    interesting diary on no quarter today on the aa vote. some might find it worth a read. it deals with the numbers in the important states the obama campaign thinks it needs to win after discarding ohio and florida.

    Parent
    Fair and accurate - but nuanced (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by dianem on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:07:18 PM EST
    I've said all along that Obama is not as progressive as people think he is, but he is a progressive. McCain is not as conservative as people think he is, but he is a conservative. Obama is being a bit duplicitous by describing his positions here in a way that is going to be most appealing to progressives, while in other places he slants them in ways that seem more conservative/moderate. All politicians do this, and during the primary fight I argued most vehemently that Obama was no different - and was repeatedly attacked for taking that position. It's a shame he didn't feel strong enough to run on a more honest platform, a real change from politics as usual. Opportunities have been lost and will not be regained any time soon, but I think that if he had lived up to his slogans he would not be significantly worse off than he is right now.

    To me this sounds a lot like setting the bar (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by vicndabx on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:11:24 PM EST
    of low expectations lower than it already is.

    The soft bigotry of low expectations (none / 0) (#143)
    by RalphB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:33:05 PM EST
    to borrow a term from Bush  By the way, it fits.

    Parent
    Believe in universal health care? (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by lambertstrether on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:15:08 PM EST
    Running Harry & Louise remakes against Hillary in OH is surely an odd way to express belief?

    Forgetting some people, Senator Obama? (5.00 / 10) (#41)
    by Pol C on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:17:21 PM EST
    Namely, your "overzealous" campaign personnel and their "inartful" statements?

    Obama gained his advantage in the Democratic race by convincing the bourgeois left that he was their dream candidate. At the heart of that was his pimping a minor anti-invasion speech in 2002 into proof beyond all doubt that he was the only genuine candidate with regard to opposition to Bush's Iraq war policies.

    When Bill Clinton pointed out in detail that Obama's actual positions vis-a-vis Bush's Iraq policies were all over the map, they had to shut him up fast or see Obama's candidacy derailed. So they had their proxies call his "fairy-tale" remarks a racist trope, and then sat back to watch pathological Clinton-hating liars like Chris Matthews go to town with it.

    When Samantha Power let the cat out of the bag with regard to Obama's wishy-washiness on Iraq in an interview with a British journalist, the campaign fired her. The business over the "monster" comment in the same interview was a cover the Clinton campaign sadly provided the Obama campaign with. I think they were as surprised as anyone when the Obama campaign actually fired Power--they were otherwise treating the "monster" remark as a joke.

    Rachel Maddow and her ilk can argue this on Obama's behalf 'til the end of time, but there is no getting around the fact that Obama's campaign sold him as the straight-arrow anti-Iraq war candidate to the public, and that perception was so central to the success of his campaign that they fired their best foreign-policy advisor and smeared the most prominent Democratic politician in the country in order to protect it.


    If Obama said the sky isn't blue (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by angie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:21:37 PM EST
    there would be a swarm of his supporters explaining the scientific reasons how that is true -- 'cause the sky only looks blue because of the reflection of the sun off the water or whatever. I'm  going to trust my lying eyes.


    Yes, through rose-colored glasses (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:26:10 PM EST
    the sky is not blue.  No matter the rest. :-)

    Parent
    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by CST on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:39:44 PM EST
    Because actually, the ocean isn't blue and only looks blue because of a reflection from the sky (which is actually blue due to the types of gases in the atmosphere).

    My nerdy two cents.

    Parent

    You're cute, CST - in a good way. (none / 0) (#102)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:57:34 PM EST
    Thanks for the humor. :-)

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#106)
    by CST on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:02:48 PM EST
    Nice to see you back, you seemed to be missing for a while.

    Parent
    And if he said it was (4.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:27:36 PM EST
    there'd be a swarm of his detractors explaining the scientific reasons how it's not true.  Pretty pointless in the end, huh?

    Parent
    No, actually (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by angie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:16:46 PM EST
    read my last sentence: I'll believe my lying eyes. But maybe you missed it in your knee-jerk reaction to come to Obama's defense here.

    Parent
    Clinton as a foil? (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by jimbo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:26:14 PM EST
    Thats a joke.  The only obama reaction to HRC was to run and hide, unless of course he could get in front of his supporters and give her the finger.  Face it, obama is weak.  Some saw it from the beginning, while others drank the Kool Aid, closed their eyes and ears, and aligned with the little man.  The piper will be paid, in some form or another.  

    he has a point (5.00 / 6) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:38:45 PM EST
    "people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me"

    and no one is about to (none / 0) (#187)
    by pluege on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:05:13 PM EST
    Where has Obama been the past 28 years? Has any politician won an election in that time with long winded explanations? Does he really think anything that isn't a sound bite is going to gain any voters that haven't already settled on him - what a neophyte.

    Parent
    I'm already developing an allergic reaction... (5.00 / 11) (#82)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:41:34 PM EST
    ... to this style of talking. "Some people think [comically extreme lefty view]. I've always thought [vague but empty rhetoric that nobody disagrees with]."

    For example:

    "Some people think government is the solution to everything. I think personal responsibility and faith are good things."

    "Some people bristle at the notion that faith has any role in public life. I think that it can have a positive role."

    "Some people think there are no moral issues with abortion. I understand that there are complicated moral issues involved."

    "A lot of the counterculture of the 1960's spit on veterans and hated America. I don't agree with spitting on veterans or hating America."

    "Some people think we should worship the devil and drink the blood of human sacrifices. I think we should celebrate motherhood and apple pie."

    What is he really saying all this time?

    "The left is full of tired old liberals. I'm better than that."

    Ah, yes, the famous straw men BushBoy would set up (none / 0) (#176)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:10:21 PM EST
    and then destroy. Now, Obama's doing it.

    There are so many scary similarities between these two men. One is much more intelligent (I think), speaks somewhat better, but, oh my, so many similarities.

    Parent

    I bristle (none / 0) (#197)
    by Jane in CA on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:07:50 PM EST
    at the notion that faith has any role in public life.  You shouldn't have to be subject to unwanted sermons and prayers to get a meal if you're hungry.

    Parent
    Is this (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:00:58 PM EST
    the Obama worm of the day? It seems like he does nothing but WORM lately. I guess we should get a WORM meter and start counting the way it's starting to look.

    I came to the light all on my own already (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:02:08 PM EST
    but thanks.

    In other developments ... (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:02:15 PM EST
    ... Obama promises Ari Fleischer his old job back.

    Criteria (5.00 / 6) (#118)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:15:47 PM EST
    Any politician that:

    1. advocates the death penalty
    2. Continues to gray the line between church and  state
    3. Advocates random spying on citizen
    4. Believes in weakening woman's choices even over the advice of the attending physician
    5. Refuses to adhere to their oath of office to defend the Constitution

    Is not my idea of a Democrat, let alone a progressive.

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:21:03 PM EST
    I think Eisenhower and Ford were just fine but that doesn't mean they're who Democrats should aspire to be from an ideological standpoint!

    The key difference on healthcare is that the plans put forward by Clinton and Edwards, because they set up a public plan in direct competition with private insurers, would have established a clear road to single-payer because - assuming the public plan delivers the benefits we expect of it - people will opt out of private insurance and opt into the public plan.  When enough people do that, market forces will have effectively made the private insurers irrelevant, and who can argue with a market-based solution?  So we get to single-payer slowly but in a politically doable way.

    Obama's plan, because of the lack of universality, didn't offer a road to single-payer.  In fact, while I don't think I would go so far as to say "center-right," there's really not a huge amount of difference between Obama's proposal to create affordability without any mandated coverage and McCain's affordability proposals.  I think progressives have legitimate reason to be disappointed with where Obama went on this issue, perhaps moreso than any other.

    there was no UHC choice (1.50 / 2) (#129)
    by Panhandle on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:38:59 PM EST
    What all the major candidates have ever offered is Universal Health Insurance, which is NOT Universal Health Care. If that was your issue, you lost before the primaries started, cause there was no way Kucinich was gonna have a chance. Insurance is not Health Care

    Parent
    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
    UHC in the context of American politics means universal health insurance.  If you have insurance in America, you're not going to have a problem getting health care.

    Parent
    Health care is an issue (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:12:38 PM EST
    of access and quality of care depending on where you live not just insurance.  In some areas there aren't enough general practice doctors and especially dentists to handle the patient load not to mention specialty and critical care.  It needs to be a healthcare program not a health insurance program as access and quality care is an important aspect of what is happening with healthcare in the US.  Incentives to serve in rural/impoverished areas etc are part of a healthcare program.

    Parent
    LOL (5.00 / 4) (#131)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:41:55 PM EST
    Um, events created and sponsored by the political campaign is not grassroots.  That is the opposite of grassroots.  Up is down, wrong is right, telco immunity is good, inexperience is judgment, etc.

    Has his candidacy actually succeeded in perverting the meaning of everyday words?  Obamaspeak as the national language?  Ugh.

    Since when has showing up at a rock concert ever done anything to advance an issue?  These are political rallies -- they have their place in every campaign, but they're are most certainly not fora for advancing political views unless those views are lockstep with the band on the stage.  

    He's right (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by cmugirl on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:02:41 PM EST
    He isn't moving to the middle.  The "middle" is in his rearview mirror.  

    Bob Herbert's op-ed piece in the times today (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by gmo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:26:02 PM EST
    Bob Herbert's Op-Ed Piece  is one hell of a hoot.  Who are these people that didn't imagine this is precisely what would happen?  

    Really, Bob?  You're shocked?  Because I think anyone with half a whit of sense saw this coming from a mile away.

    You will enjoy (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:31:18 PM EST
    an earlier thread today in which we made Bob Herbert and his ilk into mincemeat.  It ought to come with a search.

    Parent
    Did anyone notice of his usage (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by my opinion on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:27:07 PM EST
    of the word "fair" in regards to the tax code. This is disturbing because the backers of a flat tax refer to it as a overhaul of the tax code and as a "fair tax". Are we going to hear in the future that he already mentioned he was for that too?

    Obama didn't say he was 'perfect' or even ordinary (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:15:58 PM EST
    When his apologists are cornered into admitting that Obama has been exposed as lying about the "change" he promised to bring, the excuses range:

    • he's just a politician, what did you expect? (Not his fault but yours for trusting him.)
    • so? He's not PERFECT. (Except the criticisms aren't about Obama's lack of 'perfection' but his lying and flip flopping.) Jeez, how arrogantly lame to pretend critics are unreasonably up in arms cause the poor dude's only close to perfect!
    • so what's one leetle issue like [core Dem principle] anyway; I must have more money and power. (Except, he's been on a spree of flip flopping to right wing interests now that he's removed his Dem rivals based on misrepresenting himself and what he stands for.)
    • FISA's not a little issue and it's within his immediate power to stop this atrocity.

    He doesn't belong in the White House. He doesn't belong on the ticket. Dems need to have a true blue vote at the convention and allow a real Democrat to emerge from the process.

    the point i have reached with this is (5.00 / 3) (#167)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:38:04 PM EST
    obama said, "blah, blah, blah" but what i really meant is "blah, blah, blah, blah." now i really and truly mean "blah, blah, blah, blah."

    speaking strictly for me i don't want four years of arguing about what obama really means.

    If I end up doing that (5.00 / 3) (#169)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:40:39 PM EST
    just shoot me kay?

    Parent
    I find myself asking myself (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:05:09 PM EST
    tonight if it is possible for voters to become so depressed and degraded that they become unable to make it to the polls?  Could it happen to me?  If we had to vote tomorrow I don't think I would because I haven't the energy to show up for it.  I would want to do something that made me feel better than going to vote for Obama because I had no other better choice.  What a feeble voice I have tonight.  What a pathetic vote.

    Parent
    I have to wonder, as a teacher (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:21 PM EST
    how his students felt facing a test.  Thankfully, the law books have a lot of just words that they can look up, as I have to think that Obama's lectures might be reminiscent of those by a prof I had who sounded absolutely brilliant and had quite a fan club because he was so cool.  But within minutes of leaving the lecture hall, I couldn't for the life of me figure out just what he had said.

    I'm with you, I think I would be getting anxiety disorder, a panic attack, and be reduced to severe testing dysfunction about going to the polls in fall, if I had to listen to all this in the last few weeks alone -- and had not already decided how to vote.

    Parent

    i can't help but think they yawned (none / 0) (#209)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:41:51 PM EST
    quite a bit and pinched themselves to stay awake. i was fortunate and had some professors who were quite interesting. but then again there were the ones where i did my best to keep my eyes open.

    Parent
    I so understand how you're feeling: I sometimes (none / 0) (#177)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:16:57 PM EST
    wonder if he is saying some of these weird WORMs and elucidations of WORMs just to drive libs/progressives crazy and to drive them away from the polls.

    Why a Dem would want to do that is what perplexes me no end. And then I find myself wondering if he's a Dem in the same way Bloomberg was (he's now independent) a Repub.  

    Bloomberg had been a Dem, knew he couldn't run on the Dem line in NYC, so he changed in affiliation and bought his way onto the R line--and won. Obama could never run as a Republican--but he can play one on TV now that he has the Dem nomination.

    Parent

    Obama didn't move to the right of his supporters. (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by daryl herbert on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:45:15 PM EST
    Obama's supporters moved to the left of him.

    That's because Obama is at the exact center of the known universe, and everything revolves around him.

    He's right, of course. (4.50 / 4) (#66)
    by halstoon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:34:31 PM EST
    People haven't been really listening; otherwise, they wouldn't be terribly surprised by any of the positions that he's taken. I've known since seeing him in Iowa that he is a liberal with some conservative views. That's why I like him. He knows church is unpopular in his party, yet he 'clings' to his religion. He knows a lot of liberals would like to see guns banned, but he supports gun ownership. He is who he is, and that's a good thing.

    Church is unpopular? (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:42:17 PM EST
    Is that why we've had so many atheists running for the Democratic nomination?

    Parent
    Sigh.. This artful mistruth, again. (5.00 / 5) (#94)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:47:07 PM EST
    Church is plenty popular among liberals, Dems, etc., as much or more than on the right.  

    Religiosity is not popular among us.  Neither is blurring of the separation of church and state.

    Just stop calling us godless heathen, hokey-dokey?

    Parent

    I didn't call you anything. (1.50 / 2) (#130)
    by halstoon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:41:53 PM EST
    Church--as it relates to politics--is not popular, okay? Obama is too churchy, preachy, cozy with people who make faith part of their politics.

    But what would a day be if I didn't give you something to gripe about?

    Parent

    Obama's faith based expansion (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:50:50 PM EST
    is one of the hottest issues being discussed on the Obama mailing lists I follow.  Religious people are adamant that no abuse of public funds occurs while the atheists and god-lite folks (librarian, teacher, gay mailing lists) are screaming about the fact that FBIs bolster the political arms of the Catholic church and other mega churches that subvert our democracy.
    It's interesting to hear those conversations among already strong Obama supporters because we don't get logged jammed in the "bad, bad Obama" rhetoric but instead focus more on the issues themselves.  
    Maybe TL could take that approach...?

    Parent
    God-lite librarians! (4.50 / 2) (#122)
    by DFLer on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:23:05 PM EST
    That is great!

    whoo-hoo....my poor mother would be laughing from her grave, and then proceed to the standard rolling meme.

    Good one.

    Parent

    Hmm (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:22:37 PM EST
    A liberal with some conservative views - so, no fighting Democrat.  And I would be quite wowed to see Obama place himself in a speech amongst those he characterized as bitter and clinging to religion.

    A liberal with some conservative views - well, he gets to choose which ones those are, that much is clear now.  We do not.  Didn't know he was going to be conservative on FISA.  Didn't know he was going to be appallingly conservative on the death penalty.

    He is setting up a buffer to insulate himself from criticism in saying what he has said above.  

    He has proven to be a charlatan.  He is really digging in now, and I think he will continue to be conservative on a host of issues.  His predominant influences seem to be the U of Chicago people.  The grassroots/organizing stuff was clever, but I think it's obvious that he gives it only a secondary, interesting place.  If that wasn't so, why would he so happily embrace FISA's extension of executive power?

    Parent

    Oh that's crap (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:56:37 PM EST
    Church is fine.  Popular even.

    The last person i know who said Church is unpopular in the democratic party is a republican.  what's YOUR problem?

    The problem is blurring the line between church and state.

    Which HURTS church.

    I can see some real lines being drawn here replacing the primary bitterness.

    Parent

    obama has now flip flopped (4.20 / 5) (#3)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:53:41 PM EST
    on ascribing political motivations to politicians one disagrees with.

    thread cleaned (4.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:04:31 PM EST
    this is the third one today. My Left Mind is becoming a chatterer and a shill for Obama. Please limit yourself to 10 comments in a 24 hour period.

    Please clarify (1.00 / 1) (#193)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:34:59 PM EST
    Am I posting too often, or is it that I seem to be pretending or are my posts too long?

    I'd like to know what I did wrong so I can correct it.

    wiki: A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims.


    Parent

    I don't see how my comments are (none / 0) (#213)
    by MyLeftMind on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:32:40 AM EST
    chattering or being a shill for Obama.  
    But it sounds like you folks don't like my input or my questions.  I can respect that.  

    Have a great conversation.


    Parent

    Personally (3.50 / 2) (#10)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:57:35 PM EST
    I cant find a thing that he said today which is other than the truth - nor is there anything that I havent known about him.

    The only thing I see that he has changed his mind on is the FISA bill, and I am disappointed about that. Otherwise, though he may be emphasizing certain centrist things that he has always believed in, to appeal to the center (obviously smart and necessary politics), I dont see that he has changed any position to a more centrist one.

    NAFTA? I seem to recall (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:08:27 PM EST
    he walked that view back to campaign BS. And seeing who his advisers are . . .

    Parent
    You Beat Me To It (none / 0) (#20)
    by daring grace on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:06:32 PM EST
    Your post is practically word for word what I was thinking as I read this except that I would say I am VERY disappointed in his FISA shift.

    Parent
    Obama's correct (1.50 / 2) (#28)
    by Veracitor on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:09:55 PM EST
    He's consistently said he will not govern by ideological restrictions.  Also, that he will not be the "perfect candidate."  A lot of people seem to have projected expectations upon him that were not consistent to what he has been advocating - change, compromise, and a new way of doing things.

    If one is expecting a "pure" liberal candidate, then they are out of luck.  There is no such thing.  Dennis Kucinich was the only primary candidate that represented that position.

    If one-issue voters are looking for purity on their pet issues, then they have nobody to blame except themselves.

    If Obama supports UHC (none / 0) (#188)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:07:42 PM EST
    as he claims in this statement, then why hasn't he proposed it?

    One Thing IS Very Clear (none / 0) (#202)
    by WakeLtd on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:28:18 PM EST
    No one seems to have a handle on what Obama has meant. At one time, some thought they had a pretty good handle on it, fer or agin him. Now we have Obama stating that apparently no one has paid attention to him  and really LISTENED. Which is odd: very few candidates in this campaign cycle have has as much attention. The worst part of this is yet to come. If we are being told we didn't quite grasp his finely-nuanced mind when we thought he was being clear as a bell,  what are we going to make of this virtually Derridean deconstruction of his own words that Obama presents us with? Call in a team of French semiologists to save the day?