home

Obama's "Dogwhistle"

Fred Hiatt gives the Left a lesson on how to keep your eye on the issues you care about and not fully focus on the fate of the candidates. There is nothing Hiatt cares about more than continuing the Iraq Debacle. Nothing. Barack Obama's weeks of "moving to the middle" coupled with his inartful use of the word "refine" in reference to his Iraq policy has given Hiatt his opening. Writing for the WaPo Ed Board, Hiatt states:

BARACK OBAMA has taken a small but important step toward adjusting his outdated position on Iraq to the military and strategic realities of the war he may inherit. . . . Mr. Obama's shift came when he was asked last week about his withdrawal plan, which he first proposed in late 2006, a time when Iraq appeared to be sliding into a sectarian civil war. . . . As we see it, [Obama's shift is] a modest but real step toward a responsible position on a conflict that, like it or not, involves vital U.S. interests.

Maybe this is what Obama intends - a wink towards the Hiatts of the world on Iraq. Maybe not. In either event, Hiatt saw his opportunity and he took it. And the debate on Iraq policy has shifted. More . . .

Consider how some on the Left react to any criticism of Barack Obama. Instead of thinking about the ramifications for the policies they claim to support (or oppose), their kneejerk reaction is to defend Obama at all costs and to lash out at anyone who criticizes Obama.

Do they care about the effect on the actual policies? Not so much. By attempting to create a political landscape where Obama can do no wrong - they lose the war on issues. Hiatt knows better. For all the criticism we have of Hiatt on policy, it is clear he knows how to play this game. Certainly much better than some segments of the Left.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< McCain on Rights of the Disabled | D-Day for FISA Capitulation >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Shut the f*** up and send Obama more money! (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by lambertstrether on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:06:09 AM EST
    What's wrong with you?

    The same thing that has been wrong with me (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:19:36 AM EST
    since I began blogging - I realize that pols are just a means to an end - the policies you want.

    Parent
    BTD some are beginning to see the light (5.00 / 5) (#128)
    by BernieO on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:29:51 AM EST
    At least some of the people who defended Obama no matter what are changing their tune. The Nation has an article by Naomi Klein about Obama's "Chicago Boys" complaining about his ties to people from the Chicago free market school of economics. And Bob Herbert goes after Obama in his column today, which is a huge turnaround. Why he was naive enough to buy into Obama's "I'm a new kind of politician" schtick is beyond me. Anyone who has written about politics for years should not be that gullible. I can understand why young people who have paid little attention to politics before and do not know much about history were taken in, but a columnist for the New York Times? Had Herbert bothered to research Obama's record (like his phoney claim about passing a bill to force nuclear power plants to disclose any leaks when he actually watered it down when his buddies at Exelon pressured him) he would have known that Obama was - and is - a typical politician.

    Parent
    Phonier yet (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:27:29 PM EST
    is that no bill was ever passed.  Watered down to please his backers and Republicans, the bill never made it to the floor.

    Parent
    Thank You (3.00 / 2) (#97)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:05:00 AM EST
    That is what I have been saying since you started apologizing for Obama with your "Pols are Pols" thing. I have said "Issues", another one of your dog whistles, and Politicians are inseparable and that Politicians are the ultimate vehicle in getting the Issues you want instituted actually instituted via the Politicians vote.

    If you knew this when you started blogging you sure didn't express that up until now, but it is welcome. Realism is always welcome.

    Parent

    criminy (none / 0) (#108)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:12:29 AM EST
    and I thought I picked fights.

    Parent
    I'm not picking a fight (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:15:54 AM EST
    Like with any other poster that any of us disagrees with during the course of this election I am only pointing out their change in position toward my own the same as you would point out a posters shift to your stated position.

    Parent
    S.C.A.R.Y. (5.00 / 4) (#129)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:31:22 AM EST
    "I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views."  - Obama

    Obama's slick manipulation of words is similar to Bush claiming he never said Saddam was connected to Sept. 11 - but 70% of the American people believed he was!

     

    Parent

    the erie similarities (3.66 / 3) (#135)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:36:39 AM EST
    between Bush and Obama are growing by the day.

    Parent
    Outfits' stock code varies but both are mannequins (3.00 / 2) (#151)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:09 AM EST
    It's like the pre-Father's Day weekend flyer with underwear modeled by Pointless White Guy in mock conversation with Bland Nonthreatening Black Guy.

    Facing Page: Thoughtful Asian, Pointing Brown Man.

    Parent

    Well you're wrong (none / 0) (#123)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:24:43 AM EST
    I sense a focus away from media criticism and onto issue activism but as far as those two topics are concerned I dont see how anyone here is being inconsistent.


    Parent
    Any shift to "issues activism" (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:56:40 AM EST
    is countered by the continued argument for electability, too.  Can't have it both ways.  

    Parent
    I have some thoughts on this (none / 0) (#163)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:21:44 AM EST
    simmering.

    Parent
    I look forward to that, Edgar (none / 0) (#164)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:24:16 AM EST
    as the contradiction has been simmering on the back burner for me, too -- still trying to formulate the words but busy writing other words for work, too.  No doubt you will do so sooner and far better, so simmer away, and I'll be watching for it.

    Parent
    Let's just call a (none / 0) (#131)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:32:55 AM EST
    "refining" of position instead of, as you are calling it, inconsistent.

    Parent
    it's quite possible, (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:44:51 AM EST
    though, that Obama's move to the middle was done before he shored up "his" Base.  The same base that voted for his Opponent in the Big States and Battleground States.  The same base (post-February) which increasingly tuned him out and expressed buyer's remorse ... and voted for his Opponent.  And the same base he's made almost no discernible entreaties to.

    I don't know if he and his campaign understand that, for some voters (blue collar, older, women, Hispanic/Latino, rural) having a D after his name won't be enough to guarantee their vote.  And his dash to the right/middle before shoring up these voters sets him up to look like he's pandering when he finds he has to backtrack to get the people he should have gotten FIRST!

    Add to that the growing Media Narrative of "the Straight Talker" against the man who speaks "inartfully" and needs to "refine" and that task becomes more difficult.

    Has Obama lost control (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:54:30 AM EST
    of the conversation?  Possibly.  The NYTimes Opinion section is filled with articles questioning him.  Not a good trend, and I don't know if he has enough experience to be able to change the conversation swiftly and effectively.

    and he's unfortunately (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:17:08 AM EST
    painted himself into a corner where any change to lead the conversation back to where he wants it could be easily branded as more "refining" or (gasp!) flip-flopping, whether the charge is true or not.

    He's branding himself -- and not in a good way -- before the GOP can do it for him!  

    Parent

    they are defining obama and not in a (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:25:01 AM EST
    positive manner either. i have read that whoever does the defining wins. oh the shift has come. ko is holding his finger in the dike but the water is coming in from other holes. ko can't run fast enough from hole to hole.

    Parent
    A letter doing ditto is in my paper (none / 0) (#77)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:52:58 AM EST
    this morn, the leading paper in so-pro-Obama Wisconsin.  There have been several.

    Parent
    Has the OC lost control? (none / 0) (#161)
    by magisterludi on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:18:21 AM EST
    Yep. Flailing comes to mind.

    Parent
    Obama is already running for re-election (none / 0) (#173)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:02 AM EST
    Humility is not his strong suit.

    Parent
    The other day Obama was quoted as (none / 0) (#236)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:15:43 PM EST
    saying "when I was a senator" as if he is now the president, I guess.  Either he is arrogant or he is delusional.

    Parent
    He's not just a Senator now (none / 0) (#241)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:47:30 PM EST
    He's our Dem candidate.  It's not arrogant or delusional to speak from the perspective of this new role.

    Parse, parse, parse.

    Parent

    Parse the past-tense verb. (none / 0) (#242)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST
    I'm going to (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:55:18 AM EST
    misspell his name, but c'mon, we all know what Petraeus will say.  He knows he has compromised himself on the altar of Shrub, he's gone all-in, and he has lost the respect of a lot of his mates.  He's going to tell Obama that everything is peachy keen and we're "this close" to ultimate victory, and he'll make sure that it's leaked publicly that he did so.  So Obama's position, if he means it, means except for those that have to leave due to their time in country, the vast bulk of our troops aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

    Sure, I'll grant you that with parsing that yes, he technically didn't flip flop on the issue, but he emphasized the he would be C-in-C and that he would take the troops out on his terms.  (And he'd be right, unless we want the Generals to control the Fed. Govt., and I know none of us want that.  Well, maybe Gen. Clark, but that's not exactly what I meant.)  He said that he would get them out faster than Clinton, and he stressed that MUCH more than the conditions on the ground stuff.  Maybe we heard it the way we heard it because that's what he wanted us to hear!  

    Hey, he is a pol, but I don't remember most of the blogs acknowledging that, instead they destroyed (or tried to at least, they got their man, but they did not destroy her) Clinton as a Republican hack who wanted our troops to die.  I know that is your general point, that issues should drive the blogosphere, not personalities.  But you just have to excuse those of us who saw a good and decent public servant raked mercilessly over the coals just so that Obama could do exactly what she would do getting a wee bit mad at him for it.  Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it" was a 100% accurate and honest statement, but it didn't do him one bit of good, did it?  So even if Obama is being 100% honest and accurate on his Iraq position, which he is, it hurts him because it seems like waffling.  

    IMHO at least.

    Jackson

    Sorry BTD... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:04:45 AM EST
    That "don't blame us for being mad" wasn't directed at you, you've been good about allowing criticism of Obama.  I'm a Left Coaster with insomnia, so my wording on that last paragraph was inartful to coin a phrase, it was directed at others.

    Jackson

    Parent

    sorry Jackson... (none / 0) (#27)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:17:00 AM EST
    But, that would be to "borrow a phrase" not coin one.

    Parent
    I know... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:18:54 AM EST
    I was trying to be sarcastic, I should have snark-tagged or air-quoted that line.  :)

    Jackson

    Parent

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:05:23 AM EST
    Obama probably got it from Deval Patrick anyway...

    Parent
    This is all correct (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by pluege on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:10:53 AM EST
    Hiatt is correct that Obama will fall in line with the right on Iraq if elected, i.e., very few troops are coming home anytime soon.

    BTD is correct that the hollowing beasts of the left shrieking 'Obama can do no wrong' are both wrong and in for a very rude awakening when Obama does little more in Iraq than a republican would do.

    I Don't Worry (3.66 / 3) (#133)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:36:16 AM EST
    about any of this.  Obama is never going to be elected.  If Dems nominate him in Denver they're done.

    And I have to add, thank dog.

    Parent

    Yup, this pretty much (none / 0) (#118)
    by dk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:17:34 AM EST
    says it all in a nutshell.

    Parent
    i predict the great awakening of the (none / 0) (#166)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:26:57 AM EST
    creative class and kool kids has begun. oh well!

    Parent
    I've decided that (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by pie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:14:57 AM EST
    Obama doesn't flip flop.  Oh, gracious, no.

    He "refines his positions artfully."

    Pretty phrasing, isn't it.

    What a world.

    the title of the post is perfect (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:17:44 AM EST
    I think that is exactly what he is doing.  and not only on this subject.  I dont know what it will do to his election chances but I dont like what it implies if he should win.


    There is a big difference on (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:31:43 AM EST
    what Obama's position on ending the war was during the primaries and what many of his supporters THINK his position was.

    As I recall there were only two candidate that were for bringing ALL the troops home and ending the war.  They were Kucinich and Gravel.

    Of the top tier candidates Obama, Clinton and Edwards, there was very little difference in positions, although Edwards plan was more aggressive in getting more troops out sooner.  And, any troops left in the area according to Edwards, were to be located in a neighboring coutry instead of directly in Iraq.  Edwards kept saying in debates he would have ALL combat troops OUT of Iraq and always challenged Obama and Clinton on the fact that they planned to leave many combat troops in Iraq.

    Both Obama and Clinotn countered Edwards by saying the combat troops they would leave in Irag would be there just to contend with left over pieces of AlQaeda.  Plus they would have troops to protect the embassy, contractors and finish training Iraqis.

    The only difference I ever saw between Obama and Clinton's plans were that Obama always said it would take 16 months to get the troops out at a rate of removing 1 - 2 brigades per month.  Clinton always said she would start removing the troops at 1 - 2 brigades per month within 60 days of taking office.  But, she would never say how many months it would take.  But, since they both would be working in an environment with the same number of brigades, the fact that one did the math and the other didn't never seemed like much of a difference to me.

    Neither Obama or Clinton ever gave an actual number of how many troops their plans would LEAVE in Iraq.  So, their supporters were always free to imagine what ever made them happy.  There seems to be an abundance of this ability among hard core Obama supporters anyway.

    But, there was one uproar when a senior military adviser to Obama, and i don't remember his name, gave an interview about HIS OWN PERSONAL OPINION and said he would leave 80,000 troops in Iraq.  That was AFTER the Samatha Powers bruhaha, so it was the first glimpse, to me anyway, that Obama's actual position of getting all the COMBAT troops out of Iraq may not have been as aggressive as his supporters thought.

    Other differences (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:19 AM EST
    I remember Obama talking about increasing troops 80-100k in Afghanistan.  Obama supporters never got that... 'I am against dumb wars'... even if he was going to take troops out of Iraq, they were going to be sent to Afghanistan.

    I also remember that Obama approves of using private security corporations (Clinton does not) like Blackwater that have no accountability and that cost the taxpayer a premium as they are much more expensive than troops.  There was one connection to Obama that wanted energy contracts in Iraq and another that wanted a security contract.  I questioned whether Obama would ever get out of Iraq with those types of connections.  

    I want to know what other business deals there are going on in Iraq.

    Parent

    how can you say that? (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:32:31 AM EST
    that Obama supporters never "got that"? Thats absurd. Withdrawing forces from Iraq so that some could be sent to take down the people that actually attacked us, especially in Afghanistan, has been a central theme espoused not only be Obama supporters but by most progressive Democrats since 2002.

    Parent
    Easy.... (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:50:03 AM EST
    some of them did not get this.  I don't happen to think of Obama supporters as a monolithic group.  Some find Obama's position on the wars as a flip-flop.  I don't.  Some did not listen to his words.  I know a couple of Obama supporters who are now disappointed and I had to remind them that I had told them Obama was not ending the occupation in Iraq, that none of the most likely candidates would.

    Parent
    for the record (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by CST on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:59:22 AM EST
    I have yet to meet an Obama supporter who didn't know that he wasn't pulling out of Afghanistan, and probably adding more troops.  His whole "speech against the war" was all about how we shouldn't abandon the real fight in Afghanistan and we were wasting our resources in Iraq.  

    Any one who didn't think that really wasn't paying attention at all.  The Iraq flip or not a flip is a lot more nuanced so I understand the confusion there.

    Glad to know we are no longer a monolithic group though :) And I concede your point that SOME supporters may not have known about Afghanistan.  Just that those supporters must really not know anything about their candidate.

    Parent

    And Many Here (5.00 / 0) (#211)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:04:48 PM EST
    Also believed Hillary was going to end the war. Both of them crafted positions that allowed for tremendous leeway while sounding definite, as any pol worth their salt would do.

    Parent
    Afghanistan is a stupid (none / 0) (#162)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:20:46 AM EST
    stupid area to base an army.  

    Parent
    i am sure the russians would agree. (none / 0) (#169)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:30:03 AM EST
    No Difference There Either (none / 0) (#183)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:06:37 AM EST
    Hillary was also for taking the war to Afghanistan where we were really needed.

    Parent
    So what? CDS alert. (none / 0) (#185)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:12:23 AM EST
    well the point I was trying to make (none / 0) (#188)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:21:23 AM EST
    was that from what I have seen here since Obama's "refining Iraq stratgey" remark was a good number of Obama supporters that are of the opinion that Obama had a much more aggressive position on getting the troops out of Iraq (during the primaries) than Clinton did.  I never saw much difference between the two myself.  The only difference I ever saw was his actual use of the 16 month timeframe.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:28:00 AM EST
    Maybe you need to adjust your browser.
    Other differences (none / 0) (#152)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:19 AM EST
    I remember Obama talking about increasing troops 80-100k in Afghanistan.
     I was responding to the claim that she was different than Obama on this. And I have never had even a slight case of CDS. I voted for her and would have liked to see her as President.

    Parent
    Apologies. (none / 0) (#194)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:35:43 AM EST
    I must have been confusing you with . . . oh, no, he posted below.  Predictably.

    Parent
    Differ on private security (none / 0) (#203)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:43:56 AM EST
    corporations like Blackwater.  I wasn't clear.  I thought that the separate statements with Clinton in parenthesis in the second would make the point.

    I never thought the candidates differed on Afghanistan, just that there was a lack of knowledge on the part of some Obama supporters that he was bringing troops home.  His positions indicate he is shifting troops.

    Clinton and Obama differ on security corps in Iraq.  I happened to agree with Clinton on this one as I prefer accountability.

    Parent

    Although (none / 0) (#207)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:50:46 AM EST
    Her call to eliminate contract employees was seriously limited.

    The legislation requires that all personnel at any U.S. diplomatic or consular mission in Iraq be provided security services only by Federal Government Personnel.

    The rest of the 140,000 or so get to stay.


    Parent

    Not contract employees (none / 0) (#221)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:28:23 PM EST
    I don't believe all contract employees (some are Iraqi citizens) need to be kicked out.  I am referring to the lack of accountability and cost of corporate security.

    There are a total of what? 180k civilian contractors providing everything including garbage collection.  I am talking specifically corporate 'security' contracts.  There are about 20-30k of them used by the DoD and other intelligence agencies.  They are the ones used to escort convoys of food for troops etc and are also the ones used to escort officials.  I want the US to use troops for convoy security because the corporate security personnel have no accountability.  If they aren't eliminated they should be subject to prosecution under Iraqi and US law.  Then there is the issue of cost.  Corporate security is costing twice the amount of troop security.  I, personally, want the profit motive taken out of the wars.

    Parent

    I Am With You 100% (none / 0) (#223)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:38:38 PM EST
    But neither Hillary or Obama are for that. Hillary was fine with Blackwater until Obama took a position supporting them. It was then she saw an opportunity to score political points by offering a band aid, as Blackwater is very unpopular.

    Her plan would eliminate 1400 or so private security forces.

    Here is some background.

    Parent

    At least she didn't flip-flop. (none / 0) (#243)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:38:35 PM EST
    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:44:59 AM EST
    This is exactly who Obama is dogwhistling to on Iraq, too.  He's not hinting at a move to the center, he's hinting at a move to the Beltway media position.  Lord knows there is no giant mass of centrist voters hoping the war drags on just a little longer.

    I assume you have seen the recent polling where voters declare by a 2-1 margin that the next President's priority should be "bringing the troops home" rather than "winning the war."  That's a pretty conclusive result, considering it's not like the numbers just got that overnight.

    The problem is that Obama laid out a pretty concrete position in order to win the bidding war in the Democratic primary and has been trying ever since to send out signals that he doesn't really stand behind it.  Voters pick up on the cues a lot more than they sit there and parse the precise language.  I'm so tired of listening to people who buy the "responsible" flim-flam and insist that as long as Obama continues to say he'll do the responsible thing, he hasn't shifted one iota.  The "responsible thing" could be literally anything.

    Who was it, James Carville, that advised Obama not to answer hypothetical questions on this subject?  Exactly so.  If you decide you want to change your position at some point, then change it, but up until that point stop advertising that you reserve the option to change it.  It just creates needless doubt and, other than Fred Hiatt, there is no constituency out there that wants to hear that Obama might not necessarily stick with the position he took in the primary.

    Carvill bugs the %$#@ out of me (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:51:53 AM EST
    but he is so right sometimes.
    "there is no such thing as a hypothetical presidency"
    such an easy answer.

    Parent
    The 2-1 ratio (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Landulph on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:07:01 AM EST
    is exactly what bothers me about all this. Obama isn't neutralizing McCain; he's neutralizing HIMSELF (in the time honored traditions of his party), on what should be favorable Democratic issue turf. Surely this is exactly the game McCain wants to play.

    Parent
    ah the usual contingent of "advisors" (none / 0) (#170)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:31:27 AM EST
    have struck again. why do democratic contenders always have the strums brazile etc screw with their campaign?

    Parent
    Well put (none / 0) (#76)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:52:40 AM EST
    The only question that remains is whether or not Obama's constant changing of position will be visible only to those who seek political news or to the wider voting public.  Of course, the Rethugs have plenty of material now for their sound-bite ads showing Obama as a "flip-flopper" and "waffler."  Kerry redux.

    Parent
    How well I remember (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:59:41 AM EST
    all the people, Democrats included, who said in 2004 that they couldn't figure out exactly what Kerry's position on Iraq was.  This is politics, and what's important is what people perceive your position to be, not what your position is in the view of your most starry-eyed supporters.

    Obama can insist all he wants that he's been 100% consistent on Iraq, but if people are questioning what your position is, you're doing something wrong no matter how unjustified you feel they are.  Mind you, I'm not naive enough to believe that Obama is actually puzzled by why people perceive an ambiguity in his position.  The ambiguity is obviously a very deliberate creation and, as a cynic who questions whether any Democrat will actually end this war in the foreseeable future, I find it extremely unwelcome.

    Parent

    Obama would help himself a lot (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:09:57 AM EST
    if he would lose the "uhhhhs."  They suggest a lack of firmness on whatever he's saying.  What happened to practicing a candidate on anticipated questions?    Cut and paste his positions from his website to a teleprompter, if they must, but the speech pattern is problematic and counter to sounding forceful.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 5) (#119)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:17:51 AM EST
    Obama tries to choose his words carefully, and like a good lawyer, he uses lawyer words ("inartful" is a great lawyer word") in order to leave himself wiggle room by appearing to commit on an issue without actually committing.  The only problem is that there's a difference between politics and law.

    Take campaign finance, where Obama pledged to "vigorously pursue" an agreement with his opponent to accept public financing.  Most people took that as a pledge to accept public financing if the other guy did, which was the intended effect.  But yeah, if we want to argue the point in a lawyer way, he didn't really commit to that, he simply said he would try to reach an agreement.  (Better still, "vigorously" is an unprovable matter of opinion and therefore meaningless, but it sounded good when he said it.)  So that's how Obama and his most zealous supporters can argue that he didn't actually break his pledge.

    In politics, though, what counts is the ordinary understanding of his words, not the outcome of some legal argument.  If President Obama starts going back on his word on any number of issues, people are going to be unhappy no matter how much wiggle room he left himself as a technical matter.  Count me as one who believes he should give up the cuteness already.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:28:40 AM EST
    I know this re his substance.  I think that is beyond fixing, as he has no firm positions, really.

    I'm talking about style, not substance -- about at least projecting firmness, if he is to win.  I know a lot of litigators, and they know what I mean.  In the courtroom of public opinion, he comes off as a law prof in a classroom, instead.

    Parent

    In politics PERCEPTION is everything (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:20:51 AM EST
    Don't think the majority of Americans are going to spend the time playing WORM (i.e. parsing to get to a favorable opinion) on Obama's statements. Agree, Obama is being too cute and it could come back and bite him in the a$$.

    Parent
    A4 ??? (5.00 / 0) (#224)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:38:40 PM EST
    are you in the UK?

    Parent
    it is so very apparent to anyone watching (none / 0) (#209)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:57:13 AM EST
    when he umms and takes so  long to select the "just right" word.  YOu can tell that he is doing exactly what you describe.  And, it has irritated me throughout the entire campaign.

    To me it makes him sound untrustworthy when he is being so overly cautious about selecting just the right word.

    Parent

    I used to love watching Blair (none / 0) (#229)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:19:34 PM EST
    on Prime Minister's Questions.  I don't recall any "uuuhhh"-ing at all.  But yeah, he picks the words carefully.  Just a lot faster and smarter than Obama does.  Not that that will keep one from being branded a liar, eventually.

    Parent
    I think you are right (none / 0) (#233)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:49:15 PM EST
    Really, I liked Blair a lot at first.  He's not just smart - he's funny and witty.  When he became Bush's lapdog I was appalled.  Blair is SO much smarter and better than Bush.  But it just goes to show that even someone like Blair can make a fool of himself.  I hadn't thought about the rookie thing, but that makes sense.  The reason that rookie Bush got the upper hand is that he's not bright and he is incapable of self-analysis and therefore thinks he is right.  Blair is capable of analyzing and thinking deeply, so he doesn't immediately think he is God' gift to the planet.  That may have made him hesitate, or take guidance from Bush since Bush seemed so sure.

    Parent
    the thing is the british parliament (none / 0) (#235)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:05:48 PM EST
    system and the pm questions instills a sense that you will need to answer for your actions in front of your peers. that along with other influences results in many of the british politicans actually quite verbal and able to support their actions much better than i see most american politicans. of course we have finegold, clark, the clintons and others. so we do have our well spoken polls. today sound bites and running a emotional pull is more the campaign and order of the day here.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#237)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:21:39 PM EST
    Things like Prime Minister's Questions are great.  I wish the U.S. did stuff like this!

    Parent
    yeah, its what people sound like (none / 0) (#191)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:33:51 AM EST
    when they think before they speak.

    Cant have that.

    Parent

    I love this (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:36:57 AM EST
    Even an "uh" becomes a positive, if you're far enough in the tank.

    Parent
    hey, I do it all the time (none / 0) (#202)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:43:01 AM EST
    so why should I criticize him. Makes me like him more.
    I guess you want the plastic packaged kind of candidate. Your choice.

    Parent
    Yep! (5.00 / 1) (#228)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:54:53 PM EST
    Anyone who doesn't say "uh" all the time is the plastic packaged kind of candidate!  

    Your comments really are unintentionally hilarious.

    Parent

    Brings up the question... (5.00 / 1) (#230)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:23:19 PM EST
    Hasn't he had enough time BY NOW to have thought out his positions on these questions?  Sheeee-it.  The fact that he still goes "uh" so frequently suggests that he still hasn't done his homework, still hasn't put in the time to really think about these issues, still is pandering because he doesn't trust his positions, still hasn't figured out whom he's trying to appeal to, etc.

    Parent
    Exactly. Obama speaks before (none / 0) (#197)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:39:23 AM EST
    he thinks lately.  And then has to "refine" his "inartful," unpracticed statements.  And, as I said, good candidates (and good managers and good teachers and etc.) think ahead, anticipate questions, and prep for them.

    Maybe you ought to think before you type, Ben.

    Parent

    Bingo! (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Landulph on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:15:56 AM EST
    In our current discourse, sadly, perception IS reality. And that's exactly what BTD's been getting at the past couple of days, I think. If Obama is PERCEIVED as having flip-flopped on Iraq, it is just as bad for him as if he actually has done so.

    And there's another dynamic as well. Note the tack Hiatt's taking: Obama changed his Iraq position to conform to the new, rosier outlook over there. And why does this new situation exist? Becuase of The Surge (or so we are told) which St. McCain backed through thick and thin, defying the nattering nabobs of negativism (hat tip: S. Agnew, aka Inmate 84628). Not good.

    Parent

    honestly (none / 0) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:58:08 AM EST
    I think their list is so long and flip floping is so far down it they may never even get to it.
    they may not need to.

    Parent
    You may be right (none / 0) (#231)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:25:02 PM EST
    We're in for some ugly campaigning.

    Parent
    The "Out! Now!" folks (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:53:37 AM EST
    didn't want to listen when I said that NO politician would be yanking our troops with all due speed.

    No, they just moaned about Hillary and the AUMF and declared only Change would do.

    Now they have their Change guy.  

    For anyone who chose to really look at (5.00 / 3) (#184)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:10:22 AM EST
    everything the top candidates were saying about Iraq, it was obvious that American troops would remain there for years to come. Some troops reductions? Maybe or even probably due to military necessity. (It is possible that even McCain would be forced to do this) Actually end the occupation of Iraq anytime in the near future. None of the top candidates for either party were going to do that IMO. For all the talk coming from the Dems about ending the war, they had no intention of ending the occupation.

    Parent
    in one debate they asked all them dems (5.00 / 3) (#205)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:49:40 AM EST
    to commit that all troops would beout of Iraq by 2013.  NONE of them would do it.  Not Obama, Clinton or Edwards.  It was a BIG talking point for about a day and a half.

    Parent
    I saw Hillary being interviewed on O'Reilly (5.00 / 1) (#238)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:25:23 PM EST
    on Iraq (actually his interviews were the best) and he asked her the question; 'What if Petraeus came to you and said everything is working fine, we don't need to pull out now' would you agree? She said NO, and here is why...Then she went on to outline the pitfalls in his position and why withdrawal was absolutely imperative, period. So at least she laid out the possible scenario with a promise to be accountable for her position.

    Parent
    The Flip-Flop (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:55:36 AM EST
    was in misleading the Left during the primaries that he was going to do one thing and now he is "refining" (an Obama weasel word)and doing what he KNEW he would have to do all along.

    Only the most uninformed among us thought we could pull a bunch of troops out of Iraq with no consequences, there were even some on this blog saying so right up to the primaries. But the realists knew we could not and in this case so did Obama.

    So he pandered (lied) to the Left to get nominated. And now as he has done with more that a few promises he is going where he knew he would go all along. But yet if he would have been truthful he would have not been nominated - so he lied.

    Yeah, as Dean said yesterday, he is the Change Candidate. What Dean didn't say that Change means saying one thing to get nominated and then Changing your mind to your real plans after you are nominated. That is what Bush did isn't it? Promised to be a Compassionate Conservative, but when elected Changed his mind too.


    sad to see dean who really did stand up (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:28:52 AM EST
    against the war in 04 go over to the "what i really meant side".

    Parent
    Did You See This? (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:31:48 AM EST
    http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/tuesday-phoning-it-in/

    Obama was supposed to be campaigning in Charlotte last night on behalf of Beverly Perdue.  His airplane had mechanical trouble out of Chicago and landed (for some reason I don't understand, it not being on the route) in Saint Louis at 9:51.  With all day to find alternate transportation to Charlotte, the campaign decided instead to phone in the speech.

    Which would've been great if he could have remembered the name of the lady he was campaigning for.

    Click the link to get mad all over again.

    Btw, diversion to St. Louis (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:15:02 AM EST
    is no surprise.  It's a major hub, so likely to be good for getting another flight to get on the way again.  Going back to Chicago rarely is a good option if you want to actually get on the ground, as O'Hare is impossible.  Can't tell you how many times we have had to circle and circle, waiting for clearance even on scheduled flights without an emergency such as this.  Not fun to be flying over your own home, almost a hundred miles north of Chicago, and wishing for a parachute -- but knowing it will be hours before you land, having missed a connecting flight, and hours before finally getting back to the home you saw below, hours before.

    If connecting through the Midwest region, avoid O'Hare and do Detroit or St. Louis.  Oh, and avoid Midwest Airlines now.

    Parent

    The news I heard said the (none / 0) (#138)
    by zfran on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:41:20 AM EST
    trouble on the plane was highly unusual to happen in the air (it had happened on the ground). They are investigating.

    Parent
    The plane's nose kept drifting up. (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:41:08 AM EST
    Remind you of anybody?

    Parent
    Good. That's Midwest Airlines (none / 0) (#155)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:05:55 AM EST
    which once was great but has been destroyed since it was bought out.  Being in its hq city, we flew it whenever we could -- but after a recent experience (hey, at least Obama took off on time and had working bathrooms), no more Midwest for us.  And it is cutting back on service by the day.  There's more detail on the cutbacks, for those who may have flown it before but had best be warned, as well as details on the problems on Obama's flight, btw, in the local media of the airline's hq; see jsonline.com.

    Parent
    It is possible (none / 0) (#145)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:48:56 AM EST
    that he got the name wrong, but it also seems possible that it is an inaccurate transcription.  I didn't find any source other than Fox News.

    Parent
    in any case (none / 0) (#156)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:06:14 AM EST
    it seems to be a growing tsunami of bad press for Obama these days.  And the campaign seems utterly ineffectual in responding to it.  If Obama continues running his campaign this way, all McCain will need to do is speak somewhat coherently, stand upright without tipping over and landing in the Mayor's lap and he'll forever be the "Straight Talking POW".

    I said up-thread that Obama's constant need to "refine" what he says has painted him into a corner where any attempt he makes to redirect the conversation will now be seen by some as "refining" which, in today's media narrative, is just another euphemism for flip-flopping.  

    Only "refine" and "inartful" are fancy words many rural, blue collar voters will raise their eyebrows at before deciding 'this guy has no clue what I need or want from a President'.  

    With all the other stuff in Obama's overstuffed closet (what we know now and what we'll find out come Fall), it won't take much more than that to put many of those voters in either the McCain Camp or the Sit-this-one-out Camp.

    The narrative will now be some variation of the "Straight Talker" against the guy who "refines" his "inartful" statements and doesn't connect to the Average Voter (whatever that might be).

    Parent

    once the tide turns and folks start asking (none / 0) (#179)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:49:16 AM EST
    questions and making observations that are critical, the pandora's box is open and can't be closed. msbnc? i think matthews is capable of turning on obama along with the rest with the exception of ko.

    Parent
    All Obama has to do is (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:00:38 AM EST
    what McCain was going to do, declare some sort of victory of whatever kind and leave.  I have no crystal ball so who knows how we will come to leave Iraq.  I really don't care much anymore, I just want to leave.  There is a whole boat load of special tweaks and liberal sort of processes that Obama can apply as he takes his leave of Iraq so knock yourself out Obama.  It is my only sweetness in my Iraq daily tea that the "winning" of this horrid bone grinding war will go in the Democrat column.  KMA Dubya!

    Meanwhile, according to NPR, (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:42:28 AM EST
    Iraqi government insists on including a date for withdrawal of U.S. forces as a condition for any new "security" agreement with the U.S. executive branch.

    the point is - (4.00 / 4) (#69)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:48:25 AM EST
    Obama has refined his position on Iraq to reflect Hillary's. You remember her - right?  Obama supporters characterized her as an evil warmonger who would keep us in Iraq 99 years - whereas Obama would begin withdrawing troops "immediately."
    These are the same Obama supporters who spent time and money marching and protesting the war prior to the 2002 vote - while Obama gave his only anti-war remarks to a small gathering of liberal Democrats. Obama didn't have the political courage to march against the war or speak out against it during large rallies.
    And yet he has no problem looking into the camera and claiming he was "always against the war."

    Dalton, (5.00 / 5) (#122)
    by dk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:23:41 AM EST
    It's not that I'm completely disagreeing with you, but this isn't just any old issue.  This was, essentially, THE defining issue of the Obama campaign for the most part.  He quite consciously stayed squishy on every single other issue during the primary (in the sense that he was vague on his positions..I don't think anyone can deny that Obama's was a personality, rather than an issue driven, campaign).  But the one thing he focussed on in appealing to the left was to appeal to the anti-war sentiment.

    Now, technically it may be true that he kept his prescription for Iraq so vague that nothing he will do in the future can specifically be labeled a flip-flop.  But, on this definining issue, he is at least flip-flopping in spirit, if not in substance.  And, again given the importance of this particular issue, I don't think arguing over semantics of literal vs. figurative flip-flopping is enough.  

    Parent

    Obama was ambiguous on Iraq? (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:47:20 AM EST
    >>>This is a honing down of a position instead from something more ambiguous

    Well of course he was - and good for you to admit it. But most of his followers disguised it by focusing on his "opposition" to the war when he couldn't vote and downplaying his numerous votes to fund the war.
    Like Bushies, Obama supporters lied to themselves and played along with Obama's war games.

    Parent

    Dalton, you need to read this: (none / 0) (#239)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:31:34 PM EST
    link

    Parent
    Sorry, my linking is awful. (none / 0) (#240)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:43:42 PM EST
    just go over to the side bar and read Anglachel's journal dated July 01, 2008

    Parent
    I thought you agreed (none / 0) (#2)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:10:49 AM EST
    that Obama didn't change his position on Iraq?

    I do (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:18:35 AM EST
    I have stated that given Obama's "move to the middle," it was predictable that the Hiatts of the world would see this as an opportunity to shift the debate on Iraq withdrawal. And he has.

    And people like you who insist that Obama can not be criticized are the ones who create space for this. You do not know how to win the battle for policy.

    I am glad you came into this thread because you are just the type of person I am talking about.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:32:25 AM EST
    Where do I insist he cannot be criticized?

    Such hypocrisy.  When MSNBC would trot out various negative frames against Hillary you couldn't stop yourself from attacking those frames.

    Now the McCain camp throws out the ever popular flip flop label, which the media is more than willing to soak up, and you......  admonish Obama for being a flip flopper.

    And even when the label is misapplied by the media you....  admonish Obama because he is a flip flopper in other areas and thus deserves it.  

    There is nothing wrong with criticizing Obama.  

    So you guys have a grand time here jumping on Obama for every new attack meme trotted out and when anyone comes here to defend him you attack the person as well.  

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:48:18 AM EST
    You must be a different person from the flyerhawk who consistently espouses the SYFPH position.

    Parent
    Funny (none / 0) (#83)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:57:08 AM EST
    you are one of the people that goes out of their way to ridicule me.  Yet you are suggesting that tell others they can't criticize Obama? Ironic indeed.

    Parent
    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:08:08 AM EST
    You've said it a million times, that any criticism of Obama between now and Election Day is counterproductive.

    Parent
    I've said many times that (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:35:27 AM EST
    the UNREASONABLE criticism of Obama is counter-productive.  

    Criticizing Obama because you are upset with FISA.  Completely reasonable.  

    Calling Obama a flip flopper, a notion proferred by the McCain campaign,  NOT reasonable.  You are helping to build an image that is not terribly accurate but effective at damaging the candidate.

    This is one of the frustrations for me.  Rather than discuss what I am saying you guys simply ridicule me as a Obamabot or some other childish name and move merrily on to tossing jabs at Obama.

    I'm not trying to poke a stick in anyone's eye here.  I suspect that I agree with most of the people here on nearly every issue, other than the McCain trolls that come here to stir up trouble.

    But it is really difficult to engage in a real discussion when all the responses are flippant.  This site is supposed to be an issue advocacy site but instead it has become a "Who can come up with the wittiest jab at Obama" site.  

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#192)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:35:26 AM EST
    I sure can't remember when you have ever said "yeah, this is a reasonable criticism of Obama."

    Every single issue that gets brought up happens to be either a totally bogus and unjustified criticism, or else it's one of those things that flyerhawk just doesn't care about as much as winning in November.

    You have said that you don't care how far he runs to the Right, you're content to just wait until after the election and see how he governs.  While you're entitled to your position, it doesn't address BTD's thesis that shifting on these issues is likely to hamper his chances of winning more than anything.  And you still haven't explained how it's a viable strategy to excuse anything that gets said during the campaign, vowing only that he will "lose your support" if he governs too far to the right AFTER the election.  After the election, what does he need with your support?  Even when reelection time comes around, you'll surely do the same calculus and conclude that he's much better than the Republican opponent.  

    Your position ends up sounding like "I'm perfectly open to valid criticisms of Obama, there just haven't been any valid criticisms yet."  Which strikes me as a little improbable.

    Parent

    Like a weak resume (none / 0) (#180)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:54:20 AM EST
    and a candidacy based on a speech made before the war.

    These are quite reasonable critiques really and there's not much to shoot back with.

    Parent

    Obama flip/flopped on FISA. (none / 0) (#216)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:15:26 PM EST
    he promised to filibuster any bill with telecom immunity.  Now, he won't filibuster it.

    That is a flip / flop

    Therefore Obama is a flip/flopper.

    Parent

    if people here (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:48:21 AM EST
    were anything like other bloggers, they wouldnt be artfully explaining how obama is losing the debate on Iraq they'd be calling obama a blood thirsty warmonger.

    Aren't you glad people here are so eager to use such restraint?

    Parent

    Hmm (none / 0) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:47:28 AM EST
    When? Everyday at this site.

    Parent
    You misunderstand my purpose (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:56:09 AM EST
    being an Obama apologist is not exactly easy work here.  While I would readily agree that I defend him on criticisms I don't attack others for making the criticisms.  

    I'm not here to condemn people for not voting for Obama.  If you want to vote for someone else or not vote at all, that's your choice.  

    I will question your tactics, BTD, when I think that they are counterproductive to your stated objectives but that is not the same as telling you that you can't criticize Obama.

    Parent

    not that you care (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:59:54 AM EST
    but my respect for you just went up:

    "being an Obama apologist is not exactly easy work"

    Parent

    Thank you for the clarification (none / 0) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:04:15 AM EST
    Your refined position is certainly better than what you have been projecting.

    Parent
    i kinda liked the defender from last night (4.00 / 3) (#107)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:12:29 AM EST
    who insisted that since you only had one real  example of a true flip/flop, FISA, that you couldn't accurately describe Obama as a Flip/Flopper.  Apparently there is some magic number, never divuldged by the defender, of flip/flops a politician must commit before the label of flip/flopper can be applied.

    Parent
    I love this. (none / 0) (#139)
    by Landulph on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:42:04 AM EST
    Kerry was labeled a "flip-flopper" for an innocuous (if somewhat awkwardly phrased) description of a consistent position (that of funding for Iraq operations). Where do they get these "rules" from? And what planet are they living on?

    Parent
    Clarity (none / 0) (#144)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:47:55 AM EST
    is not one of my strengths.

    I wish I was one of those people who could write a single sentence that succinctly makes my point but that is not one of my skills.

    Parent

    flyerhawk, you get your points across. (none / 0) (#172)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:34:32 AM EST
    McCain (none / 0) (#109)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:13:01 AM EST
    shifted the debate on Iraq withdrawal long before Hiatt did today.

    The debate on Iraq was just picking up steam as this election moves forward.

    Obama had two choices in this debate. Stick with his "I was against the war"/"I will pull the troops out" rhetoric of the primaries. Or move to a more realistic and responsible position.

    In moving to the realistic and responsible position he neutered himself and has ceded ground to the Right. That is the point Hiatt is making. Obama handed that column to him. Obama is now becoming not much different than McCain on Iraq which weakens Obama and makes that pitiful 6 point lead look very fragile because it is.

    Parent

    One more time (none / 0) (#136)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:36:50 AM EST
    Obama did not change his position on Iraq.  I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

    Parent
    sadly for O (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:42:29 AM EST
    in politics perception = reality

    Parent
    Which is why (none / 0) (#142)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:45:13 AM EST
    I bristle when people who are ostensibly supporting Obama, use the term flip flopper.

    And that doesn't change the fact that Talex is wrong.  

    Parent

    He's only got opposition to a war (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:40 AM EST
    which can be propagandized intot a win for the GOP.

    It's a house on the sand for Obama.

    Parent

    You need to read more (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:51:00 AM EST
    or listen to what he says.

    During the primaries he had already had Iraq position creep. But you Obama supporters REFUSE to see and hear reality even if it comes from Obama himself. During the debates he started to "refine" his position. Now he says he will refine it again.

    Parent

    If you insist Obama's position hasn't changed... (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by CK MacLeod on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:41 AM EST
    ...then you're in effect admitting what was obvious to many since last Winter at the latest, that he had left himself generous wiggle room with vague hedges and abstract slogans (reserve the right as Commander-in-Chief..., careful getting out as careless getting in, etc.), and that Samantha Power was completely and blindingly right when she admitted that his campaign platform was in effect a useful fiction to entertain those bitterly clinging to the most reductive version of the Democratic '06-'07 Get Out At All Costs Even Genocide unity position.  (As most of you will recall, she was booted from the campaign - some will say because she was too candid, others because she called HRC a "monster.")

    In short, in one sense Sen Obama can't flip.  He's never really had a position to flip from.  His only clear, comprehensible, and consistent position is "to the left of my opponent."  Everything else is negotiable, and anyone who claims to know what his position would be when, as President, he didn't have any opponents left, is dreaming.  He has had a rhetorical position - just words - and those words are highly fungible.

    Which brings us back to the beginning:  If he's just more-withdrawal-oriented than Hillary and now than McCain, details to be determined later in consultation with those whose credibility is around a thousand times higher than his own (ahem, Petraeus) - then the only thing he has is the relative full-throatedness of his emphasis.  And if his emphasis has shifted for the general election, then he has flipped.  

    He can't flip on the substance, because he has no substance.  Since he has no substance, and since his words and emphases are constantly changing, he never stops flipping.

    QED

    Parent

    are you so sure that his use of the term (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:11:45 PM EST
    "refine" wasn't a trial baloon to see what kind of reaction it got?  And, the reaction was so swift and loud that he had to come back out within hours and explain his current/old/new/same as ever position all over again?

    Isn't it exactly the same thing the campaign did about a week ago when they sent the "unnamed" staffer to talk to the AP about Obama's position on expanding funding of faith based initiatives and dicriminatory hiring practices?  As soon as the reactions came in Obama was back out there "reaffirming" his position and claiming the AP got it wrong.  But, of course the AP wrote what the Obama staffer TOLD THEM.

    Parent

    Bob Herbert has a good column today (none / 0) (#5)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:24:47 AM EST
    On Sen. Obama's "move to the middle."  It's nothing that hasn't already been said on this blog, but it's a good read.

    I read Mr. Herbert's column, and (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by bslev22 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:54:34 AM EST
    I have yet to forget his post-SC primary hate attack on Hillary Clinton.  I don't take him seriously anymore (and I've read and admired him for years), Frankly, if Mr. Herbert really is so surprised by what Senator Obama is now doing, then I guess he was never much of an analyst.  I think most of us could have predicted that Senator Obama would move to the center or even over to the right to the extent necessary to win the election.  Hardly profound, and really at least the implicit point that many of us were making when we challenged this now obliterated notion that Senator Obama was practicing some kind of new politics.  

    Don't get me wrong: Obama is now my guy, but I am an unapologetic political hack who understands that, for any number of reasons, the politician Obama is better for this country than the politician McCain.  But that's about all Senator Obama can expect from me (and probably a couple of bucks here and there due to things like social and business protocol).

    Parent

    There are a lot of surprised people (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:02:06 AM EST
    The moves have been neither subtle nor expected by many who believed Sen. Obama's rhetoric in the primary.

    I have read Mr. Herbert for years, and usually agree with him. He is very common-sensical and does not usually get caught up in the drama of Washington like some other columnists do. Reading his columns praising Sen. Obama even gave me pause, before I decided he was just wrong. But I have a lot of respect for his opinion, even when I disagree.

    I think he nailed this one. Sen. Obama would do well to pick up the paper this morning.

    Parent

    "social and business protocol" (none / 0) (#22)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:07:44 AM EST
    What does that mean?

    I'm confused -- giving money to BO is a social protocol?

    Parent

    It was slightly tongue and cheek. . . (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by bslev22 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:38:48 AM EST
    but I am a union attorney and a right or wrong Democrat, and I will be in situations where I will probably wind up donating to Senator Obama.  

    Parent
    Giving money to political causes generally (none / 0) (#37)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:28:29 AM EST
    is encouraged in some business circles. When your boss invites you to a fundraiser for a candidate, many feel pressured to go and give. It's not specific to Sen. Obama. I have a left-of-center friend who donated to Pres. Bush last cycle because she works for a big Texas law firm and it's pretty well expected that everyone chip in. I don't think this is unusual.

    Parent
    Sorry, but I find that creepy (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:38:08 AM EST
    and am glad my social and business circles have no such protocol.

    Parent
    It is clearly creepy (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:39:39 AM EST
    I cannot disagree.

    Parent
    Well I didn't mean to creep you out. . . (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by bslev22 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:44:40 AM EST
    For some, our reality is different than others.  Then again, perhaps you are a better person than I am Valhalla, i.e. perhaps you've done more than this sell-out who has practiced on the union side of labor law for more than 20 years even though management labor lawyers make a heckuva lot more money than I could ever dream of.  Yes, we all make decisions, and perhaps we cannot be as pure as you are Valhalla.  I think I'll be able to look myself in the mirror, however, if a President Obama, unlike a President McCain, helps steer the Employee Free Choice Act through Congress.

    Gosh, I'm not used to having my bona fides challenged on this site.  The more things change. . .

    Parent

    Not you (5.00 / 4) (#100)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:06:57 AM EST
    Valhalla wasn't calling you creepy, I don't think, just the idea that people like you feel pressured by their work environment to contribute to political candidates.

    I find that creepy, too, though I am aware that's the way the world tends to work.

    Parent

    I have to respectfully disagree. (3.00 / 2) (#120)
    by bslev22 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:18:19 AM EST
    Seems like I just got hit with the same kind of self-righteosness that made me ill throughout the primaries at Obama websites like TPM.  I always liked this place because: (a) Hillary was treated with respect and admiration; and (b) the hosts do not tolerate abusive posts.

    Time to reevaluate this place; I know a self-righteous dis when I'm hit with one.

    I do appreciate your effort to clarify on behalf of Valhalla.  You obviously care about the integrity of this forum.  Thank you.

    Parent

    I didn't take the comment that way (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:12:17 AM EST
    I thought Valhalla just wasn't aware that this kind of thing went on, not that he or she was judging you for not being pure. I don't think your bona fides were being challenged.

    Parent
    Your bona fides aren't being challenged (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by sj on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:44:06 AM EST
    And I don't see any personal disrespect towards you.  The practice is indeed creepy.  And I say this as one who has worked at a place where a donation is expected and is definitely NOT a private matter.  I resented it then, and I have never reached a place of being philosophical about it -- even though it's been years.

    Of course you must work most effectively in your environment, and lack of compliance could affect your ability to do your job.  It's creepy, but that's the way it is.  But you didn't set up the system; you just have to live in it.  I am perfectly capable of being philosophical about the need for others to do what they must.  I just resented it for myself.

    Parent

    I'd prefer to be in an acquaintance's (none / 0) (#86)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:59:30 AM EST
    position.  She works for the county government so she has to schmooze whichever party is in power.  They can't afford to lose her, so her job is secure, but her job could be made more difficult if she wanted to be obstinately partisan.

    Parent
    Class is not Bob Herbert's forte (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:41:46 AM EST
    anymore, to paraphrase Herbert himself.  He forfeited that with columns like this calling the Clintons racists.  To paraphrase Herbert again, he and many others whose work I admired -- notably Eugene Robinson and, sadly, Derrick Jackson among them -- should be ashamed of themselves. But they long ago proved to the world that they have no shame.

    It's said below that it means something when the Bob Herberts turn on Obama.  No, it means nothing -- since they turned on those who have done far more for civil rights than Obama ever did.  (Did he ever do anything for civil rights?)

    Parent

    herbert lose his creds with me. (none / 0) (#176)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:38:43 AM EST
    Reading Herbert's column (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by MsExPat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:47:12 AM EST
    reminds me of how I felt when the MSM--and, particularly the liberal "hawks" at the NYT like Bill Keller--finally woke up to the fact that the business in Iraq was a sham, and Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney et. al. were lying to the public.

    It took them, what THREE YEARS to catch on to what me, and hundreds of thousands of anti-war Americans knew with certainty, back in 2003!

    I didn't derive any great "I told you so" pleasure from this tragedy. Just like I don't feel any pride in figuring out that Obama is not what so many supporters thought he was. Needed him to be.

    Just wait--in three years, Hillary Clinton will be the new Al Gore. This I predict.

    Parent

    I'm sorry, (none / 0) (#7)
    by weltec2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:43:22 AM EST
    do you have the link?

    Parent
    I hope this works; delete if not. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:47:59 AM EST
    good to see old Bob (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:29:02 AM EST
    can manage to get a dig at the Clintons in no matter what the subject.

    "You would be able to listen to him without worrying about what the meaning of "is" is."

    I am so sick of these people.

    Parent

    Yep. (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by pie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:33:35 AM EST
    can manage to get a dig at the Clintons in no matter what the subject.

    Sanctimony is very unbecoming.  Herbert should know better as he looks around him and sees all manner of sinning.

    Parent

    I am surprised that Herbert (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by zfran on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:02:34 AM EST
    is so critical. Someone in the press, other than a conservative publication takes exception to Obama's shifts. I wonder if Obama will listen to the black community Mr. Herbert says is beginning to become critical. Also, Obama is taking a lot for granted here as Mr. Herbert takes note.    

    "Mr. Obama is betting that in the long run none of this will matter, that the most important thing is winning the White House, that his staunchest supporters (horrified at the very idea of a President McCain) will be there when he needs them."

     

    Parent

    Herbert's right (none / 0) (#158)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:12:29 AM EST
    My African-American friends are now aghast that THIS is the man they voted for.  They admit they were so caught up in the excitement of voting for the first AA to have a shot at the Presidency that they didn't really look at who he is.  

    But with every day that goes by, they shake their heads and say "no, he's not the one I want to be the first".  And many doubt they'll vote at all in November.  They don't want any part of helping to elect a man they refer to now as "our Bush".

    Parent

    the thing is it was always there to see (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:44:03 AM EST
    plain as day that obama is aa but was not the aa candiate unless or until it suited his campaign. what did he do for his aa voters in chicago? i recall reading recently that the aa media felt he didn't send them any business at all. that is my personal opinion based on what i have observed. i can see the young falling for the idea and the dream, but older so called wiser folks like ny times columnists should know better.

    Parent
    on the other hand, (none / 0) (#181)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:55:43 AM EST
    can you imagine the backlash against Herbert had he NOT supported the AA candidate?

    When the NY Times (and the rest of the Media in America) finds it's backbone, Americans may finally wake up to the nightmare their Country has become.  

    Until then, it's American Idol, skimming the headlines and bottom-of-the-screen crawls and dreaming of having the biggest house or best car on the block.

    Parent

    true but then there is supporting and (none / 0) (#208)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:51:30 AM EST
    there is supporting! herbert put himself out there in print and tv with his bull. he said and wrote things i can't and won't forgive.

    gore endoresed obama but you haven't seen or heard from him since. interesting!

    Parent

    I agree with you (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:09:53 PM EST
    Herbert willingly and energetically threw himself on the Media dog-piling of Clinton and apparently blindly supported "his" guy Obama.

    But when the winds change -- and they will --, expect him to throw Barack overboard along with the rest ... except for the now pathetic Olbermann.

    Parent

    smile! good analysis! i had (none / 0) (#234)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:57:10 PM EST
    to laugh at your observation about ko and the idea of barrack under the bus with us.

    Parent
    Here's what he did for (none / 0) (#182)
    by tree on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:05:27 AM EST
    I have no sympathy for anyone (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:21:06 AM EST
    who voted based on race.  I did not do so, although many of those who voted on race claimed I did so.  (Nor did I vote on gender.)

    I have said before that it could be a major mistake for African Americans to back the wrong horse, setting back the aim to get the next one across the line -- or even out of the gate.

    Of course, their dishonesty toward Clinton that fed the pile-on may have harmed the prospects for the next woman, too.  But I'm sure that matters less to many of them, even though the majority of AAs are women.  So it goes.  And so it has gone before in setbacks to both movements, but some did it and do it to themselves.


    Parent

    The Black Agenda Report has been (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:36:48 AM EST
    critical of Obama and chiding the AA community for not looking beyond the color of Obama's skin for some time.

    I do think that this is a minority opinion within the AA community and Obama will maintain his overwhelming support. After all, they have been supporting what from their POV are less than ideal white Democrats for years, might as well break the race barrier for the top spot this year.

    Parent

    Yes, BAR has been honest (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:42:16 AM EST
    and courageous, considering the communitythink.

    So I really can't see the excuses for Herbert, et al.  Heck, if he or Eugene Robinson or Derrick Jackson or others had picked up on even a bit of the BAR website, that is a columnist who could have distinguished himself from the pack.  But nope, we just got black pack journalism.

    Parent

    and if AA support (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:18:09 PM EST
    was enough to carry Barack across the finish line, that'd be great.

    But having the AA vote isn't enough.  Even WITH a consistently overwhelming amount of AA voters backing him, he STILL limped to the finish with an assist from the DNC.

    It will be interesting to see how well his outreach to rural voters, blue collar voters, older voters, women voters and Hispanic/Latino voters does.  

    That's our Base and those are the votes he needs.  I've yet to see a compelling reason for them to vote for him, though, other than the fact that he's not McCain.  And, for most, that's not going to be reason enough.

    Parent

    No argument at all that he needs (5.00 / 1) (#226)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:48:34 PM EST
    a broader base.

    I, too, am still waiting for a reason to vote for him. During the last couple of weeks, Obama is racking up more reasons why I should not vote for him than the other way around. OTOH, many Dem voters are more than willing to hold their nose and pull the lever for the "D" regardless of what position Obama takes on the issues. Only time will tell I guess. I can only make the choice that feels right for me based on my own interests and values.  

     

    Parent

    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#38)
    by pie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:28:29 AM EST
    That kool-aid is tasting "bitter" these days.

    Parent
    I read this article this morning and said (none / 0) (#16)
    by Angel on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:54:39 AM EST
     "uh-oh" to myself.  When you're losing Bob Hebert you are in trouble.  

    Parent
    He's not losing Herbert;. . . (none / 0) (#49)
    by bslev22 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:36:29 AM EST
    Herbert is feigning surprise or was duped.  It's all part of the game.

    Parent
    I saw this article (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:01:46 AM EST
    quoted on two different news stations this morning before work. both in the context of the "left" approving of his recent "refinements".


    Parent
    I gotta ask (none / 0) (#9)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:46:19 AM EST
    -- rather sheepishly, I must admit -- 'cause I really have no clue:  what is PUMA?

    It's (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:49:40 AM EST
    Party Unity My A**. It's a bunch of democrats and former democrats who aren't supporting Obama and are sick of the corruption and waffling at the DNC.

    Parent
    Meanwhile...back at the ranch... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:50:10 AM EST
    This from Think Progress (there's also an AP story on this, but I no longer read that AP the way I used to):

    Today, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki suggested having a timetable for the withdrawal of coalition troops. "The direction we are taking is to have a memorandum of understanding either for the departure of the forces or to have a timetable for their withdrawal," Maliki's office quoted him as saying.

    But the administration has rebuffed Maliki's request for a timeline. Asked about the prime minister's comments today, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman hedged on whether the administration would follow the Iraqi government's request, criticizing timelines as "artificial."

    And:

    The State Department also hedged on whether the Bush administration would listen to Maliki. In a briefing today, spokesperson Sean McCormack said the remark may have been a transcription error:

    McCORMACK: Well, that's really the part -- the point at which I would seek greater clarification in terms of remarks. I've seen the same press reports that you have, but I haven't yet had an opportunity to get greater clarify as to exactly to what Mr. Maliki was referring or if, in fact, that's an accurate reporting of what he said.

    One gets the impression from his comments on the issue that a President McCain would take the Bush approach, putting up all kinds of roadblocks to leaving under any circumstance that could not be called unqualified "victory," while Obama would have - if he chose to take it - a huge opening to work with Maliki and the Iraqi government to get us out.  As the American people get wind of what is on the table with Iraq - assuming the media lets them in on the ongoing negotiations - it would be helpful to the Democrats' cause for voters to see McCain as being as stubborn and intransigent on this as Bush is and has been - it's an opportunity to sharpen the differences - for a change - and I, for one, will be hugely disappointed to see Obama not take advantage of a chance to do so.

    The real question will be whether the media will still be playing Bush's game on this.

    The real question IMO is if the Dems (none / 0) (#199)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:42:05 AM EST
    are actually willing to end the occupation or do they want to protect the U.S. national interests (unlimited access to Iraq's oil reserves).

    I agree that this presents the Dems a real opportunity if they chose to take it. Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that really ending the occupation is their end goal.

    Parent

    The Dems do NOT want the war to end (none / 0) (#214)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:11:54 PM EST
    now.  That would give the GOP a boost and lose those naive Dem voters who still back Obama because of the war issue.  There are many in my family.  They are naive (and they're very educated -- typical Obama voters -- but they bought lock, stock, and barrel).

    Parent
    Thanks Fred (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:58:03 AM EST
    Since then, a new U.S. counterinsurgency strategy has helped bring about a dramatic drop in violence, and the Iraqi government has gained control over most of the country. Among other things, Mr. Obama said "the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability" --
    Good point Fred. Now Obama can consider withdrawing our troops at a faster rate than he previously thought responsible. Every extra day we remain in Iraq threatens to collapse our hard won counter insurgency strategy because our occupation is one of the main sources adding to the instability of Iraq. It should be clear to Obama, after consulting with some of the commanders on the ground that the 16 month withdrawal plan is irresponsible and can now be trimmed down to 10 months in order to fully support our troops.

    Forget editorial boards. How are on air (none / 0) (#32)
    by tigercourse on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:21:27 AM EST
    personalities (other then those of Fox News) treating Obama at this point? Is he's still getting the royal treatment or has the media reverted back to it's old habits?

    cnn seems to be starting to question (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:25:50 AM EST
    a bit but he will always be the prince of MSNBC.

    Parent
    If he can keep enough of the hosts and (none / 0) (#42)
    by tigercourse on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:31:35 AM EST
    talking heads on his side, I think he will do alright. The Republicans need a constant drumbeat of tear downs by the likes of Matthews to brand Obama. Nobody reads Newspapers anymore.

    Parent
    they may not read papers (none / 0) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:38:07 AM EST
    but they read the internets. but mostly I agree with your comment except that I think MSNBC has pretty much made itself irrelevant.  including Matthews and especially Olberman.  it has become a joke.
    no one takes what their on air entertainers say seriously anymore.


    Parent
    Correct. Although papers set the frames (none / 0) (#134)
    by wurman on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:36:37 AM EST
    Most people don't read the papers.  Even so, the talking heads on the cable "shows" do read the dead-tree stuff & the discussions develop from page 1 & editorial krapola in the NYT, WaPo, & sometimes the LAT.  Rarely, a theme will flow from Xinhua, Manchester Guardian, or Reuters.

    Some (many) of the talking heads work for papers or did previously.  

    USA Today has an odd influence during some types of stories.

    McClatchey influences the internet & some local radio news.

    I tried to check & discover if the Chicago papers will develop a new effect on media as a result of the Obama campaign & the DNC move--really can't tell yet.  There doesn't appear to be an increase in references to them, which is odd.  It seems as if the national media would rather publish lies by the AP than take sourcing from the Sun-Times & the Tribune, both of which track the Obama camp very well & accurately.

    Many of the de-bunked whoppers about Sen. Obama are original fiction from AP & they've set the pace on the flip-flop themes.

    Go figure.

    Parent

    From what (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:27:28 AM EST
    I hear, MSNBC is still deep in the tank for him (they have nowhere else to go), but I don't have that channel myself, so I'm basing that on hearsay, so grain of salt and all that.  CNN is still pretty supportive, but I commented on an interview I saw on Reliable Sources with Koppel that implied that the media will shift on him.  I have an extensive comment on that in BTD's "Absent A Change" thread from a couple of days back.

    Jackson

    Parent

    heres the thing (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:34:40 AM EST

    MSNBC  has their audience and they know what they want to hear and they are giving it to them and that will continue probably no matter what.  if they DO turn on him it really is over. but really, organizations like CNN do not lead.  they follow.
    they are following now because he is still riding pretty high.  but when the attacks start they will be just a quick as anyone to repeat them.  they will be happy to pile on because it will be "news".  they love to bring down the mighty.  

    Parent
    As in (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:38:37 AM EST
    that lame reporter whose name I blanked out of my mind who started that whole "Clark "swiftboated" McCain" meme.  You're absolutely right.

    Jackson

    Parent

    Th media (none / 0) (#41)
    by pie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:31:22 AM EST
    fell in love with the Obama of the Iowa caucuses andthe Obama who gave the racism speech in Philadelphia.

    That Obama has been replaced with an old model politician.

    Parent

    Activists (none / 0) (#50)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:37:37 AM EST
    always believe that politicians don't fight enough.

    Doesn't matter what their political stripe is.

    Useful you are (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:46:17 AM EST
    to Fred Hiatt.

    Parent
    First "Caddyshack" (none / 0) (#72)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:50:07 AM EST
    and now Yoda?  I didn't think you lawerly types got to watch that much entertainment!  LOL

    Jackson

    Parent

    ha (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:53:04 AM EST
    I thought I was the only one who imagined BTD green and three feet tall saying that.

    Parent
    If you can be certain of one thing (none / 0) (#92)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:02:42 AM EST
    it is that I will never be useful for anyone that supports continue military interventions in the Middle East.

    Parent
    Not intentionally (none / 0) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:05:33 AM EST
    Hmm (none / 0) (#105)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:10:44 AM EST
    Do you not consider Afghanistan to be part of the Middle East?  Your position might need a little "refinement."

    Parent
    Oh yeah... (none / 0) (#168)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:29:39 AM EST
    ...let's repeat the USSR's great blunder.

    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#227)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:51:09 PM EST
    Comparing blunders in Afghanistan should start with our vigorous involvement in the 80s in opposition to the Soviets.

    The larger of the blunders, IMO, is ours.

    If the Soviets and their Afghan allies had prevailed, would Afghanistan have degenerated into a failed state?

    Parent

    Obama is spending (none / 0) (#171)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:32:39 AM EST
    his political capital!

    I remember someone on Faux saying that Reagan was too popular when he left office, should have ticked people off a little more with more right wing policies (huh?).  And that was why Bush ticked people off so much in his second term.  He was just spending his political capital (of course, he went overboard, to say the least).

    Now Obama has flip-flopped many, many times...and whatdayaknow, his flip-flopping perception with the public is tied with McCain's.
    Go here and look at the bar graph in the upper right.  http://www.pollingreport.com/.

    As long as he stays even with McCain, he's okay? (??????)

    Hey, BTD (none / 0) (#193)
    by mrjerbub on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:35:42 AM EST
    You're famous. They mentioned your name in the NY Times today.

    Humorously (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:41:58 AM EST
    The NYT also flags this reaction to the WaPo from the blog of The American Conservative:

    The Washington Post is clearly exhibiting early withdrawal symptoms ahead of the Bush exodus in January. Why else would it deem to waste another several inches of editorial space haranguing Barack Obama for not moving further to the right on the war - better yet, for not morphing into the farcical I-can't-make-a-move-until-my-commanders-on-the-ground-tell-me-so position that in part led Bush down to the lowest approval ratings ever for a sitting president.

    WaPo seems to think Obama is an addled child with strange notions that need to be slapped out of his head with admonishing commentary rather than a presidential candidate who represents the majority of the country on the war issue today. Status Quo is not where it's at - but that seems to be where WaPo is most comfortable these days. Of course its editors are headed for the same political train wreck as the war 's supporters on the right (including Mr. McCain): while they keep heralding the surge as ending the Iraqi civil war and destroying al Qaeda, they feel as compelled to argue that we still can't leave, lest it will all fall apart in an instant.

    It's amazing how much more plain-spoken Pat Buchanan's magazine can be about the war than the hapless Beltway Dems, including Obama himself.

    Parent

    Pat Buchanan pretty much always (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by mrjerbub on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:34:35 PM EST
    calls 'em as he sees 'em, although I disagree with what he says most of the time. Anyway, all this poop makes me dizzy. I live in a real blue state (Washington) so I'm sitting this one out.

    Parent