Russia Announces Halt To Military Operations In South Ossetia

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:13:39 AM EST
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Declaring in no uncertain terms that it was calling it own tune - that it was providing the world with its Tom Friedman "suck on this" moment, Russia today announced a halt to military operations in its conflict with Georgia:

President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia announced Tuesday that he had ordered a halt to his country’s military operation in Georgia, although he did not say that troops were pulling out and he insisted that Russian forces were still authorized to fire on enemies in South Ossetia. The president said Russia had achieved its military goals during five days of intense fighting . . .

(Emphasis supplied.) Achieved its goals indeed. Russia rendered a lesson to the world this week. It will play by its rules, not anyone else's. And in a sign of the inability of the American Media to grasp what is obvious, a NYTimes editorial states:

The United States and its European allies must tell Mr. Putin in the clearest possible terms that such aggression will not be tolerated.

Oh really? And how do you propose to do that NYTimes? They talk of this:

There can be no business as usual until Russian troops are out of Georgia, fighting has ended and all sides have agreed on a plan for calming the tensions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. At a minimum, that means international mediation, more autonomy for both regions and the stationing of truly neutral international peacekeepers — not Russian troops.

. . . The United States and Europe also need to take a hard look at their relationship with Russia going forward. Neither has protested loudly or persuasively enough as Mr. Putin has used Russia’s oil and gas wealth to blackmail its neighbors, throttled Russia’s free press and harassed and imprisoned opponents.

. . . The West wants and needs Russia as a full responsible partner. For that, Russia needs to behave responsibly. And the United States and Europe must make clear that anything less is unacceptable.

Empty nonsense. Someone is going to stop buying Russian natural gas and other energy supplies? Impose sanctions? Just ridiculous. With the autocratic regime of China hosting the Olympics these weeks, with the United States occupying Iraq and threatening Iran, it is time to end the charade and deal with the realities - no one has moral authority when it comes to foreign affairs. The United State began this century establishing the precedent of doing whatever the hell it could get away with. No one could stop the insane invasion of Iraq by the United States. And no one could stop the Russians from doing what they have done in South Ossetia.

As Tom Friedman might put it, the Russians said "suck on this." Start sucking Bush.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< About Those Clinton Memos | The Olympics As Political Football >

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Russia Announces Halt To Military Operations In South Ossetia | 100 comments (100 topical)

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How pathetic we have become. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by Faust on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:33:13 AM EST

Wanna do something? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by OxyCon on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:08:21 AM EST

Boycott Lukoil!
I haven't bought a drop from them in over three years. I told my son, who was 14 at the time, that all throughout my life, Russia has been our enemy and I'll be damned if I'm going to invest in their country.
So drive on past Lukoil gas stations.

Wow... (none / 0) (#16)
by magisterludi on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:20:42 AM EST

The Cold War never ended, it just lay dormant. Time to start indoctrinating the younguns again.


You guys are a hoot (none / 0) (#18)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:31:46 AM EST

I myself don't desire a new cold war. Problem is Russia has got large quantities of cash right now due to the current energy situation so building a nation out of happy healthy fully functioning people is no longer needed. I'm okay with boycotting their gas stations right now and buying their other goods that empower their people more than leader corruption. Just another reason why America must get it in gear and get green!


But don't you miss (none / 0) (#26)
by magisterludi on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:44:30 AM EST

the good old days of "mutually assured destruction"? Good times.

I find it kind of jarring when I read an editorial getting all high and mighty on Russia, while being pretty ding-dang complacent as Bush-Cheney ran roughshod on every international law that got in their way.

Not to state the obvious or anything.


: Nope, I don't miss mutually assured (5.00 / 0) (#29)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:52:27 AM EST

destruction and this is no time to paint Russia all one shade and promote the hanging of iron curtains. We owe our children and their children a better decor.

Cahs--and large quantities of nukes, still. (none / 0) (#42)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:07:33 AM EST

We don't pressure nuke holders all that much.


: I don't think it is official yet that (none / 0) (#47)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:14:29 AM EST

Georgia doesn't have any nukes left and Russia collected them all. I could be wrong though, haven't read anything lately but I remember a few years back reading some items worrying about Georgia and its nukes. I personally doubt they are nukeless.

I guess you weren't as aware (none / 0) (#20)
by OxyCon on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:35:24 AM EST

Of Pootie-Poot's prior experience as the head of the KGB and the belligerent and dangerous direction he was taking Russia as I was. It was only a matter of time before Pootie Poot followed Bush's lead and attacked their neighbor. I doubt this will be the last military excursion on their part.
And I don't indocrinate my children. I educate them. They are free to make their own choices.


So let me get this straight (none / 0) (#17)
by eric on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:29:31 AM EST

we used to hate the Russians because they were commies, now that they are capitalists and want to sell you oil, and you still don't like them? What can they do to please you?


You are a very naive person (3.00 / 1) (#22)
by OxyCon on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:41:04 AM EST

Sorry to have to say it. Have you been paying any attention at all to anything Putin has been doing?
I'm sure all of those dead Georgians appreciate your support for Putin and Medvedev.


And of the Ossetians.... (5.00 / 3) (#36)
by Dadler on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:59:33 AM EST

...that the Georgians slaughtered?

Putin is a thug, and so is the Georgian prez in his own way.

Painting everything and everyone with a single brush stroke is pointless. We are violent hyporictes and so are they. Or are you going to forget about the MILLION Iraqis we have helped to murder, the FIVE MILLION who now have lost their homes or are in refugee camps.

The only thing we do with mirrors is turn away from them.

Sad and laughable.


Naive (5.00 / 2) (#46)
by mmc9431 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:13:13 AM EST

What is naive to me is that after Iraq, torture, Guantanemo and the rest of the Bush projects,that anyone could believe that the US has any right to moral outrage. We gave that position up when we became the thugs.


: Not to mention (none / 0) (#71)
by Radix on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:21:18 PM EST

that Georgia was one of those countries we could send prisoners to for good old fashioned torturing.

I do mind, the Dude minds. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by desertswine on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:42:56 AM EST

This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.

I suggest that all the neocons form themselves up into a super patriotic group, sort of like a 21st Century Abraham Lincoln Brigade, maybe call themselves the Richard Perle Brigade or Kristol's Rangers or something like that, haul their butts off to Georgia and fight for the glory of their ideas, fledgling Georgian capitalism, the shining light of glowing corporate profitism, and the right to make money from anything that lives, dies, or suffers.

: Bush's Bushes? Bush's Bushwhackers? (none / 0) (#40)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:03:27 AM EST

The Prince Bunnypants Brigades (harking back to a term for Bush which I never understood, until it was explained that he was seen to run like a scared rabbit after the 9/11 attack--or something like that. Think it refers to those little bunny printed flannels kids wear... Too obscure, probably).

: neocons? take a good look at the dems. (none / 0) (#81)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:04:53 PM EST

where are they? huh?

US media seems to forget who started this mess (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by DFLer on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:47:15 AM EST

U.S. knew Georgia trouble was coming, but couldn't stop it

By Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers
WASHINGTON -- Bush administration officials, worried by what they saw as a series of provocative Russian actions, repeatedly warned Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to avoid giving the Kremlin an excuse to intervene in his country militarily, U.S. officials said Monday.
But in the end, the warnings failed to stop the Georgian president -- a Bush favorite -- from launching an attack last week that on Monday seemed likely to end not only in his country's military humiliation but complete occupation by Russian forces...

(my emphasis)

The MCM Narrative is Russkies a Baddies--that's (none / 0) (#34)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:58:30 AM EST

their Narrative and they're sticking to it.

Again, from where, from whom do our MCMers get their narrative marching orders?

This, in a thimble, is what happened with the runup to the Iraq Invasion. The MCM tells the story it is told to tell. Individual members of the press may do excellent reporting, but it gets buried in the late paragraphs of a long article (but not too close to the end, since many readers read the beginning and then go to the end) or on back pages. The editorialists emphasize the reporting which supports the Narrative--the inconvenient facts are ignored on those pages.

How does this get organized??

Bless McClatchey (formerly Knight-Ridder).


: That's Russkies as Baddies. Proofreading is good! (none / 0) (#35)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:59:09 AM EST

: McClatchey rocks! (none / 0) (#48)
by DFLer on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:15:02 AM EST

just signed up for their email alerts, so I would be SURE to visit their site.
ps I saw the "s" in as, as in your headline, before you corrected it. The mind often corrects for you!

: yup those russians were so tacky as (none / 0) (#79)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:01:03 PM EST

to take their oil back from the fellas who scooped it up during the bad times. yeah, right, sure! russia looks after their interests.

Well (5.00 / 0) (#33)
by Steve M on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:56:25 AM EST

I guess I see the appeal of sphere of influence thinking.

At the end of the day, Russia just cares a heck of a lot more than we do about the status of places like Georgia. In theory, we could go to the mat over stuff like this, but it's simply not going to happen. So we probably shouldn't make ourself look foolish and impotent by insisting that Russia respect our authority concerning Georgia.

Particularly when we have no authority (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:02:09 AM EST

concerning Georgia, not even moral authority.


Well (5.00 / 2) (#63)
by Steve M on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:47:40 PM EST

I think it's bad practice to enter into defensive pacts with nations we're not actually prepared to defend, particularly if the relationship emboldens them to take offensive action that they might not otherwise take without a big brother watching over them. Kevin Drum explains:

But one of the reasons we have no formal defense treaty with Taiwan, instead maintaining "strategic ambiguity," is that we believe it restrains Taiwan's options. If they were guaranteed American help, they might declare formal independence from China and touch off a war that no one wants. In this case, longstanding U.S. policy holds that the lack of a treaty helps keep the peace.

Wrong (5.00 / 1) (#73)
by Steve M on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:21:46 PM EST

My original point was that Russia cares more than we do, which I think is just reality.

If you think the defense of Georgia should be one of our top national priorities, that's fine, make the case. But remember, everything can't be a priority.


Sorry (5.00 / 1) (#95)
by Steve M on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:59:36 PM EST

You don't seem to be able to understand the simple English in which my point is expressed.

Russia cares more about Georgia than we care about Georgia.

That does not mean we do not care about Georgia at all.

Nor does it mean other countries do not care about Georgia at all.

Nor does it mean other countries favor Russia over Georgia.

It simply means that Russia places a higher priority on Georgia than we do.


Heh (5.00 / 1) (#100)
by Steve M on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 08:21:24 PM EST

The fact that Russia was willing to make a substantial military commitment in Georgia and we were not is pretty conclusive proof of who cares more.

Your arguments are pretty incoherent, frankly (gossiping is worse than cheating on your wife! god, I'll never forget that one) so I'm sorry I'm not able to mount a more detailed response. I have a feeling everyone else is able to follow what I'm saying pretty well, though.


That's right (5.00 / 1) (#102)
by Steve M on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 08:58:24 PM EST

Russia is willing to risk the lives of its people to protect its interests in Georgia.

We are not. Nor are any of the other NATO members who have an interest in Georgia.

That's how everyone in the world except you can see that Russia cares more than we do.


: Look (none / 0) (#107)
by Steve M on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:40:34 AM EST

I have never said anything remotely like "I support Russia being there."
This is your last warning to stop lying about what I have said.

I have been following (none / 0) (#103)
by weltec2 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:52:52 PM EST

this thread with interest but now you're starting in with name-calling which I'm sure you realize is unnecessary. Please desist TruthSayers. Don't go away, just stop with the name-calling and personal attacks.


Russia can sell to China and India (none / 0) (#76)
by bigbay on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 02:53:27 PM EST

honestly, they don't need Europe..or won't in a very short time. They can also sell to India. And China will be the world's second largest economy in less than 5 years.


What is behind Russia's actions? (5.00 / 1) (#67)
by both0sides0now on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:54:40 PM EST

See this article in Pravda (albeit not a neutral source of information). At least it suggests double standards on the part of the Bush administration. Be prepared for some very direct talk. I quote the first part... if you have the stomach for it, find the article as linked below.

~~~~

Bush: Why don't you shut up?
12.08.2008 Source: Pravda.Ru URL:

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/106067-bushshutup-0

Taking the words of the illustrious King of Spain, in his imbecillic retort to President Hugo Chavez, we use them not as a response to a diatribe but rather, a just retort to an imbecile. President George W. Bush, why don't you shut up?
President Bush,
Why don't you shut up? In your statement on Monday regarding the legitimate actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia, you failed to mention once the war crimes perpetrated by Georgian military forces, which American advisors support, against Russian and Ossetian civilians. Kinda embarrassing, eh?
President Bush,
Why don't you shut up? Your faithful ally, Mikhail Saakashvili, was announcing a ceasefire deal while his troops, with your advisors, were massing on Ossetia's border, which they crossed under cover of night and destroyed Tskhinvali, targeting civilian structures just like your forces did in Iraq. Kinda humanitarian, eh?
President Bush,
Why don't you shut up? The military forces of your faithful ally, Georgia, supported by American advisors, while on a mission as peacekeepers in Ossetia, were ordered to open fire on Russian peacekeeping forces in the same team. Kinda noble, eh?

It is evident (none / 0) (#85)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 04:11:59 PM EST

Russia sees South Ossetia as not being a part of Georgia. I wonder if they see North Ossetia as not being a part of Russia?


What? (none / 0) (#87)
by eric on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 04:30:29 PM EST

North is part of Russia, no question about that.


: Is it a piece of Russia or an autonomous area? (none / 0) (#89)
by Christy1947 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:01:54 PM EST

I've heard it both ways. What it is is half of a problem where the other half is in Georgia, and the Ossetians don't think or want there to be two of them separated.

: Ahh (none / 0) (#93)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:31:01 PM EST

but South Ossetia can't be part of Georgia according to the russians.

georgia is no innocent. (5.00 / 1) (#77)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 02:57:20 PM EST

there are no innocents in this thing. somewhere from someone the president of georgia got the idea that he could do this with the olympics starting. he made the mistake of thinking putin was as easy a push over as well some of us.

I've always felt that (5.00 / 2) (#84)
by Grace on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:47:29 PM EST

Putin was exceptionally intelligent. He got along well with Bill Clinton because Clinton was intelligent too and Clinton was similar to him in a lot of ways (motives, intelligence, personality, etc.).

George Bush was no Clinton. He lacked almost everything Clinton had: Intelligence, motives, etc.

This is why our relations with Russia have become strained.

Our best bet for next President was Hillary, but she didn't win.

I've never seen Putin as evil. He wants the best for Russia and he's willing to fight for it. Moves he makes are calculated but they are never made without considering the ramifications of such moves. Putin isn't stupid. Putin isn't a pushover either. Putin is Russia's Bill Clinton.


: well putin is a tough opponent and (none / 0) (#105)
by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:17:01 AM EST

he did come up the hard way which has made him no one's fool. when bush2 was first elected i predicted that putin would use him. i'm not far off the mark.

Will be tolerated (5.00 / 2) (#96)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 07:37:25 PM EST

It seems this kind of statement always announces what will in fact be tolerated.

I have to say i completely agree with you (none / 0) (#1)
by Jgarza on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:16:35 AM EST

Oh really? And how do you propose to do that NYTimes?

I know we love to play world police, but we don't get to do that with Russia, they have to strong a military, to much oil, and are strategically to important to us. But BTD you are dashing the neocons dreams of WWIII! So be gentle letting them down!

The ruskies are (none / 0) (#2)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:24:47 AM EST

positivity drooling in anticipation at the thought of an Obama Presidency. Ukraine and Azerbaijan are a bit nervous.

Nothing like pure irrationality... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
by Dadler on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:00:37 AM EST

...to start the day.

Wile E. Coyote...Suuuuper Genius.


Riiiiiiiight (none / 0) (#3)
by JoeA on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:30:21 AM EST

because GW Bush has really kept them on the leash this past week.


It just (none / 0) (#39)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:02:35 AM EST

shows you words will not work all of the time. Obama has not figured that out yet.


I'm not sure how you learn that (5.00 / 1) (#52)
by JoeA on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:24:38 AM EST

lesson from the events of the past week.

What is it President McCain would do differently?

Nuke Moscow?


You see (5.00 / 2) (#53)
by Steve M on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:27:03 AM EST

when we make it clear to the world that we are willing to back up our threats, then rogue nations don't dare to cross us any more.

That's why our invasion of Iraq to eliminate the threat of WMDs was so effective in convincing Iran to give up its nuclear ambitions, you see. The mullahs looked into Bush's eyes and saw he wasn't just some wimpy liberal.


: You are the king of snark. (5.00 / 1) (#88)
by tree on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 04:39:00 PM EST

All hail.

: The three kids on tricycles, all Bush and McC (none / 0) (#90)
by Christy1947 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:05:11 PM EST

have to assert their position forcefully with, really made Putin back down.

no he wouldn't nuke moscow. (none / 0) (#82)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:06:58 PM EST

and neither would obama.


Russia (none / 0) (#5)
by mmc9431 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:33:46 AM EST

Might also be signaling some of it's neighbors about Bush's proposed missle system. Russia's made it very clear that they aren't going to roll over and play dead. (I haven't heard what Obama thinks of that plan).

Win-win for Russia and China (none / 0) (#6)
by Jim J on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:35:32 AM EST

Not only the devastatingly effective military attack on the eve of the Olympics while Bush is in Beijing mugging for the cameras, but the fact that China now looks comparatively benign -- downright friendly, even -- compared to the rampagin' Russkies.

Not going to be hearing so much about China's human rights or environmental record now, are we?

: they will admit Tibet exists again after the (none / 0) (#91)
by Christy1947 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:06:25 PM EST

Olympics are over. Right now, nothing not sweet and peaceful exists, and their sports teams are winning.

New Gori Story... (none / 0) (#7)
by Addison on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:38:24 AM EST

New Gori Story

Apparently no Russian troops in Gori -- and there never were -- but Russian mortars have landed there so it's unclear where outside of Gori the Russians are/were.

Telegraph source appears to not rely merely on Georgian officials.

Hey, Addison! The MCM has its Georgia Narrative (none / 0) (#9)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:45:32 AM EST

and they're sticking to it! Get outta here with those ferrin press stories! Stick them somewhere along with the Downing Street Memos, right?

As I asked yesterday, no reporters can get into Russia or get to the Russian side of the fighting? What's with that?

Altho, based on some foreign reporting, some have. How did they do that, and our Vaunted Free Press can't??


and who trusts the msm? (none / 0) (#83)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:09:01 PM EST

i never bought bad russia when the gentleman with the oil company was put in jail. he acquired it when russia was down. putin may be a thug i don't know, but he is a realistic thug. reality would be a nice change of pace here instead of a spoon feeding media that doesn't know reality from fantasy.


With both Russia and China I have long (none / 0) (#92)
by Christy1947 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:30:05 PM EST

wondered if we take the Communism and the authoritarianism so much into our thinking that we don't also recall that both are in the last two decades only trying to haul into the later twentieth century as it existed for everyone else but not their people, two entire and huge countries spread over vast landscapes and previously run by total idiots, over a billion people who previously got none of the bennies of government as we assume them. An awful lot of China was in the Bronze age in 1949 and in 1979, and changing that for that many takes a whole lotta work. Russia was better than that but not a whole lot except for a few. Although both have parts we don't like, the leadership does seem to be producing situations where the multitudes are doing better than before, school, medical care, roads and transportation, jobs that actually pay money, computers and videos, enough to eat on a regular basis, enough to have choices in clothing, to drive cars and ride bicycles everywhere, to take vacations. That sort of better. Russian churches are actually open again. Which they didn't have before. Enough comfort with some things that O had to be working on a treaty to help remove the nuclear wastes that the bad old guys just threw around, so they could stop poisoning their own people with it. Enough confidence to do a treaty like that.

Something like a capitalist, never a free, economy. Of course, this also gets them breathtaking gangsters, corruption, billionaires in the Boone Pickens mode when they're being good, a lot of bad habits learned to survive in worse times that haven't yet been let go (we've got a few of those), truly awful pollution, and some of the things we don't like about modern times either. Something to be proud of, legitimately, especially considering where they started and how recently. A work in progress, but stop a minute to appreciate the progress. Forget the oligarchs for a moment, and look at the groundlings like all of us. For whom life is better. The execution is not pretty but it is there, and worth respect, before we go back to the current messes. You don't have to fantasize or romanticize either, to see and respect this.


: christy, i am happy to see russia (none / 0) (#104)
by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:15:06 AM EST

making changes. i just don't agree with the media hype about russia. i have felt that way for a long time. thanks for your comment.

Considering the (none / 0) (#86)
by Wile ECoyote on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 04:16:58 PM EST

Beeb is the MSM outlet pushing the Gori story.


You may want to (none / 0) (#108)
by Wile ECoyote on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 09:02:28 AM EST

tell the Russian troops they are not in Gori. They must have missed a turn.


dubya (none / 0) (#8)
by Lahdee on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:42:03 AM EST

looks into their eyes and sees a pretzel. Not the food type mind you, but a complex puzzle requiring more skill, knowledge and moral authority then available at this WH. The foodstuffs are chuckling.

Hey, has Condi used up all her phone minutes yet?

I could have sworn those were BushCo Roolz the (5.00 / 2) (#11)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:51:57 AM EST

Russians were acting on.

Get a bee up your bonnet about something, and just act on it. It's the Nike approach to foreign policy: Just Do It.

Well, actually, apparently some think Georgia pushed Russia into this move, what with its middle of the night bombing of the Ossetia capitol. Killing and wounding both civilians and Russian peacekeeper soldiers. But, hey, our MCM chooses its own Narrative.

Now, where do they get their Narrative from? BushCo? Direct conduits from whom to whom?


: BushCo sent the NYT the (none / 0) (#58)
by Grace on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:14:53 PM EST

Press Release and they ran with it.
That's what passes for investigative journalism these days.
JudyJudyJudy's replacement is doing her nails on her desk and has a 1 p.m. hair appointment. Any other questions?

and Georgian president says - (none / 0) (#10)
by Josey on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:49:01 AM EST

Georgia is leaving the independent states.
So - what now?

: I don't know (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:36:59 AM EST

but they have been out there hanging in the independent wind for a long time. It's sad.

"not be tolerated" (none / 0) (#12)
by wurman on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:05:20 AM EST

By whom? Buckshot Cheney? Bu$h xliii? Condi the merde-stirring hypocrite of the Middle East?

Oh, wait, perhaps H. Kissinger has something to say from the Ivory Tower.

PNAC & the neokonz & the rightwingnutz must be in heaven as their old "foe" rises from its ashes & they can quickly dust off the old paranoid diatribes.

Some say there is no bear.

It sounds wonderful BUT (none / 0) (#14)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:15:38 AM EST

Russia has been playing a bit of the Bush Administration game of words. I haven't kept up with the latest news about Georgia but I haven't needed to since I'm surrounded by folks who have done nothing but. Russia claims it had to go in due to Georgian peace keepers committing atrocities while there is a lot of video footage of Russian peace keepers there committing atrocities. Russia has told our military leaders in discussions that they needed to protect the people and that is why they have done this. We now must wait and see what the current Russian administrative definition of a halt to military operations is.

I still don't get the point (none / 0) (#15)
by Slado on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:15:56 AM EST

of moral equivalence between Iraq and this. If we had decided to invade Mexico because they shot up Tiajuana because it was trying to join the United States that would be one thing. We invade Iraq with several other nations including Great Britain. The UN didn't approve but that was only because some of the countries on the secruity council (Including Russia and China) had economic intrests with Sadamm. We actually spend months trying to earn the moral approval you seem to hold so dear. Never mind the fact that Saddam was in violation of several treaties and UN resolutions.

With all that said you still manage to make the point that the reality is unless we are willing to risk World War with Russia there isn't anything we can really do. That you are trying to somehow offer up a moral equivalency argument because of Iraq continues to baffle me.

Russia would do this anyway because they have grand illusions of being a world superpower again.

I agree (5.00 / 4) (#28)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:49:11 AM EST

There is no moral equivalency.

The Russians have a superior moral position here.


To a rattlesnake maybe (1.00 / 1) (#41)
by RalphB on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:05:32 AM EST

No, a snake does what it does because of instinct. Putin is a thinking former head of the KGB and thus probably lower than a snake.

Your deal here is that Bush invaded Iraq and that's a war crime? If so, why is the Russian invasion of Georgia much different?


It never ceases to (5.00 / 2) (#49)
by eric on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:16:15 AM EST

amaze me how much people have been programmed to hate the Russians.

Putin is a thinking former head of the KGB and thus probably lower than a snake.

George Bush Sr. was the head of the CIA, what reptile does that make him?


My interpretation would be that (5.00 / 2) (#70)
by tree on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:11:30 PM EST

attacking another country without either severe provocation or an attack against your own country or an ally is a war crime. That's what we did in Iraq.

Apparently what happened in the Caucusus was that Georgia attacked South Ossetia and Russia retaliated. This would put the Russians actions in an equivalency with our attack on Iraq in the 90's after Iraq invaded Kuwait. I think you can fault both Russia and the US for some of the actions that occurred during those conflicts, but you can't claim a moral equivalency between those two attacks and what Bush II did to Iraq in 2003.


: when handing out fault, georgia (5.00 / 1) (#80)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:02:30 PM EST

deserves to have their hands spanked for starting this mess.

This comment concerns discussions (none / 0) (#44)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:09:11 AM EST

covering a much broader spectrum on this subject and includes other writings and comments.


Maybe (1.00 / 3) (#45)
by RalphB on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:12:40 AM EST

but if you don't like what we did in Iraq, and I don't. Then you damn well shouldn't be supporting the Russians invading Georgia.

My comment was not in response to yours anyway.


He isn't supporting Russia (none / 0) (#50)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:16:45 AM EST

invading Georgia. He is saying that compared to the U.S. and our recent doings and why Russia has said it is doing this.........they have the moral high ground.


You are suspneded from my threads today (none / 0) (#56)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:36:32 AM EST

Do not comment any further.

Lies are not tolerated in my threads. especially lies about me.

Be gone for the day.

I am serious and furious. Go.


: In fact (none / 0) (#57)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:37:50 AM EST

Don't come back.
go comment in Jeralyn and TChris' threads.

A War crime? (none / 0) (#55)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:35:00 AM EST

Are some of you really this stupid? Honestly, are you this stupid or are you just pretending?


: don't go down to my level (none / 0) (#66)
by Jlvngstn on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:51:17 PM EST

I like your passion but when you start sounding like me it takes away from the hard work you do here.

Heh (none / 0) (#32)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:55:23 AM EST

Is America or has America been (none / 0) (#19)
by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:35:19 AM EST

in violation of any U.N. treaties and UN resolutions? So when the all out invasion and wholescale shock and awe bombing begin I'll know not complain......we had it coming.


The equivalency that the Russians would (none / 0) (#23)
by JoeA on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:42:05 AM EST

prefer to draw is with Kosovo.

Having said that you are right, there is not an equivalency with Iraq unless Russia keeps going, takes over the whole of Georgia and topples their President.


The equivelency (none / 0) (#24)
by eric on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:42:46 AM EST

if there is one, is that it is unlawful to invade another sovereign nation.

We did it, why can't everyone?


Gee (1.50 / 2) (#62)
by lousy1 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:42:08 PM EST

How many UN resolutions found Georgia in contempt of its treaty obligations? How many terrorists were funded by or trained in Georgia? Does Georgia have a history of attacking and subverting other nations?

I agree there is no moral equivalency.


: i'd say georgia is working on it. (none / 0) (#99)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 07:56:30 PM EST

those pesky little commas. (none / 0) (#30)
by rghojai on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:52:50 AM EST

"Start sucking Bush." and "Start sucking, Bush." are two very different statements.

;-)

: Ouch! (none / 0) (#51)
by DFLer on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:18:37 AM EST

Eats shoots and leaves, indeed!

Several interesting posts on the Georgia/Ossetia (none / 0) (#31)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:54:05 AM EST

mess at Moon of Alabama, starting with Between Two Empires, posted at 6:52, and then scroll down and read.

Love the "Sad Saak" moniker!

Re: cyber attacks which Georgia claimed were directed at it by Russia--seems sites from both Russia and pro-Russian and Georgian sites have been targets of cyber attacks. Which could be enthusiastic civilian supporters or state generated.

Second post down goes into how the Narrative has been fixed to support Western govs' objectives.

Links to maps.

From the story (none / 0) (#43)
by eric on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:07:47 AM EST

President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia announced Tuesday that he had ordered a halt to his country's military operation in Georgia

I wonder if he had a "Mission Accomplished" banner hoisted up behind him?

: I'm sure his PR people are too good (none / 0) (#54)
by JoeA on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:27:37 AM EST

for that kind of schoolboy error. The Russians are masters at domestic propaganda, makes Rove look like an amateur.

Commenters at Firedoglake note US military (none / 0) (#59)
by jawbone on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:17:16 PM EST

training exercise with Georgian military ended on the Thursday preceding the Georgian military action against South Ossetia. Yet the Pentagon says they had no idea the Georgians were up to anything at all. Okaaaaay. (I'm looking for a link for this info--so far dates of US trainers in Georgia very scarce.)

Also, Izvestia, in Russian, but gist given by commenter, reports that people in Ossetia claim there were black, possibly American, fighters among the Georgian dead. Not sure about wounded and captives.

Any Russian readers on the blog?

Described as wearing black uniforms, such as Blackwater, etc., wear....

I've looked for English translation or for articles in English and nothing coming up.

Interesting if an accurate report. Would we do something like that??? So knowable and obvious?

A connection... (none / 0) (#65)
by desertswine on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:49:32 PM EST

Possible Israelis?

The fighting which broke out over the weekend between Russia and Georgia has brought Israel's intensive involvement in the region into the limelight. This involvement includes the sale of advanced weapons to Georgia and the training of the Georgian army's infantry forces.

I believe that Israel gets a large part, if not most, of its oil, thru the Georgian pipeline.


: oh well, i do think they get along with (none / 0) (#78)
by hellothere on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 02:58:24 PM EST

russia also.

The Russians made their point: (none / 0) (#61)
by KeysDan on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:33:48 PM EST

do not mess with us--Georgia and others with similar ideas. I doubt if the Russians will stay in occupation, having learned first hand about such misadventures in Afghanistan and as a witness to the American morass in Iraq. Maybe the Russians have figured out that you do not have to hold title to be the owner.

: as to occupation by Russia (none / 0) (#72)
by Florida Resident on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:21:22 PM EST

I would not compare us in Iraq with the Russians in Georgia. The geography of it all as well as History give Russia a good chance of a successful occupation of Georgia something they have done both under the czars as well as the Soviet Union.

Of course the cynic in me ... (none / 0) (#74)
by Robot Porter on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:52:28 PM EST

says Russia just put the massive geopolitical issues back on the table. Cold war redux.

And, in the short term, who will benefit most from this?

John McCain.

The Republicans needed foreign policy back on the table to win this election. I think they just got their wish.

And here's McCain's new ad.

;)

: Neocon... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
by desertswine on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 02:16:15 PM EST

McNut says all Americans back Georgia in their struggle.
"I told him that I know I speak for every American when I said to him, today, we are all Georgians," McCain said to loud applause. He said Saakashvili asked him to express his thanks to Americans.
McNutcase speaks for us all now.

Has Bush officially taken credit (none / 0) (#98)
by weltec2 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 07:55:29 PM EST

for the halt to military operations yet? You know, another... Mission Accomplished? Where is the ceremony to be held?