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Capitalism vs. Human Rights? It's Not That Simple

At daily kos, the very fine writer Devil's Tower makes the same type of error that the Far Right does when discussing foreign policy, human rights and free markets. Except in reverse. DT writes:

[S]omewhere along the line, we had made a mental connection between capitalism and freedom. Anything good for one was seen as good for the other. We viewed liberty and greed as soul mates. Often enough, we couldn't tell one from the other, and in that confusion we ignored the other half of the struggle -- the one being waged by that still wet behind the ears idea, democracy. In short, we bought our own press.

Fair enough. The silly notion that capitalism and "trade" will necessarily translate into freedom is pernicious. But we can and should recognize this as propaganda while still understanding that both freedom and liberalization of markets will be, in the long run, beneficial to US interests. BTW, it is ALSO propaganda when we discuss it in terms of traditional pet Left causes like lifting the embargo in Cuba (NOTE: I favor lifting the Cuba embargo, but not because it promises freedom for Cuba but because it is an ineffective foreign policy). But we must ALSO understand that a policy for human rights must be tempered by the realities of the national interests of the United States. After all, no one can deny that Iraq is more free today after the toppling of Saddam Hussein. But it also can not be denied that the US is much worse off because of the toppling of Saddam Hussein by the US. More . . .

It is my view that a more free world is almost invariably of benefit to the interests of the United States. In the short term, we do not always get what we want, but in the long term it is good policy for the US. Unlike most of you, I also believe that liberalization of global markets is also, on the balance in the best interest of the United States and the World - living standards across the world rise as trade is liberalized.

But, as in all things, nuance is a must. Balance and consideration of all factors must be maintained in all good policy. DT loses that balance when he writes:

The 1989 protests at Tianamen Square weren't an international incident in the sense of armies clashing on a field. It was much more important than that. In 1989, China was then still experimenting with how the "free market" and an authoritarian government could co-exist. They made their moves with one eye on the dancing students, and one eye on the western world. What they learned that spring was the truth about the west. They learned the capitalism has not just defeated communism, it had also defeated all the ideals of democracy. They learned that we would put up with anything, even the brutal killing of thousands of innocents, if it meant $50 VCRs and cheap socks at Walmart.

(Emphasis supplied.) Is that what Tianaman meant? Really? Was it REALLY about $50 VCRs and cheap socks in 1989? That is simply not true. The China of 1989 was not the China of today. The real issue on how the West could respond to Tianaman was much different than that. It is revisionist history to pretend it was about cheap socks. The world is never that simple:

In the days immediately following the crackdown, U.S. and Chinese officials were already sensitive to how recent events would impact the bilateral relationship. On June 5, President Bush had announced the imposition of a package of sanctions on China, to include "suspension of all government-to-government sales and commercial exports of weapons," and the "suspension of visits between U.S. and Chinese military leaders." Document 32, an embassy cable sent three weeks later, notes that a military official had lodged a formal complaint that "strongly protested recent U.S. military sanctions," and had canceled the planned visits of U.S. military officials. Embassy officials felt this to be a "measured response to U.S. sanctions," indicating that the official "did not adopt a confrontational attitude and emphasized that both sides should take a long-term view of the military relationship." Two days later, on June 29, the State Department prepared "Themes," (Document 33), in support of Undersecretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger and national security adviser Brent Scowcroft, who were to leave the next day on a secret trip to China to meet with Deng Xiaoping. "Themes" provided the framework for the discussions the two emissaries would have with Deng. It focused on the global strategic benefits of the U.S.-PRC relationship for both sides, the impact Chinese "internal affairs" could have on the relationship (characterizing the American people as being "shocked and repelled by much of what they have seen and read about recent events in China"), Bush's view of the importance of the long-term relationship between the US and PRC, and the impact that further repression could have on US relations with China. As Scowcroft later remembered, "The purpose of my trip ... was not negotiations--there was nothing yet to negotiate--but an effort to keep open the lines of communication."6

(Emphasis supplied.) If I could, I would ask Devil's Tower this question, what course of action would he have recommended the United States take in response to Tiananmen? Life and the world are NOT black and white. It is gray. It is ironic that Devil's Tower recognized how the Progressive Movement of the Early 20th Century and the New Deal understood the need to temper capitalism in order to save it - that it was not black and white:

In competition with communism, capitalism in Europe and America had to clean up its act. What we live with today in most of the western world is capitalism with many of its sharpest edges blunted. Thousands of workers died to wear down those edges. People respond to incentives. With the worst aspects of capitalism softened, the vague (and ever receding) promises of communism turned out to be a miserable way to organize and motivate people when compared to the personal, immediate gain possible in capitalism.

FDR understood life is not either/or (witness the alliance with Stalin against Hitler). Devil's Tower seems not to. Here he criticizes Germany for not being more belligerent towards Russia, blaming capitalism:

In 1984, East Germany controlled 30% of the territory that now makes up Germany. In the face of this occupation, Germany was a staunch opponent of Soviet policies. In 2008, Russia supplies 40% of the natural gas that powers German factories and homes. That's great, but as a result, Germany tends to keep its mouth shut on Russian activities.

The passage is perhaps DT's silliest. When Russia occupied East Germany, it was a military threat to West Germany. Its policy of opposition to the country threatening it was perfectly understandable, indeed, inexorable. DT seems to forget that German unification itself was bitterly opposed by the Soviet Union and tepidly supported by the US. West Germany did it despite what the US and Russia wanted. Capitalism had nothi9ng to do with it.

In short, it's not that simple.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:25:47 AM EST
    I didn't know the US was tepid in its support of German unification.  I was in Germany when the wall started to crumble and many years thereafter so was somewhat out of touch with US attitudes at the time.

    Nice post, BTW.

    It certainly was (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:54:54 AM EST
    And the Center Left most of all. Read the NYTimes Editorial page opposing German reunification at the time. They were practically strident in opposition.

    Parent
    Shocking but true (none / 0) (#42)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:01:20 PM EST
    Read Bill Shirer's intro to the 1993 edition of Rise and Fall.  He feared the reemergence of Prussian militarism, or something. It actually seemed vaguely racist to me.

    Parent
    Ironically (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:12:22 PM EST
    a lot of opposition was due to the belief that it was dangerously provocative to Russia.

    Today. the NYTimes wants to start a new Cold War. It is like they forgot all they thought before. Amazing.

    They were wrong then. They were wrong in opposing expansion of NATO to Poland, the Baltic States, etc.

    But the US is wrong to try and expand NATO to Russia's Near Abroad, Ukraine and Georgia.

    Nuance. People should try it sometime.

    On the question of NATO Expansion, Russia has vocally opposed it but left it at that, until NOW. There is a reason for that. This is now overreach.

    Clark's arguments on this have been utterly baffling.

    Parent

    I would have expected the entrance of Poland (none / 0) (#57)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:14:26 PM EST
    into the EU to be more provocative. Russia has different triggers these days, it seems.

    Parent
    Russia (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:18:16 PM EST
    has defined its sphere of influence  realistically. It is the US who has overreached all over the globe.

    See, Iraq especially.

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#64)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:21:00 PM EST
    Pat Buchanan, who often (none / 0) (#93)
    by Xanthe on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:45:07 PM EST
    makes sense to me said recently that Russia is entitled to a Monroe Doctrine as well, no?  

    Before Russia found its energy muscle and ways to use it to their advantage, it asked to be part of NATO, didn't it?

    Parent

    United Fruit and Guatemala (5.00 / 0) (#3)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:35:17 AM EST
    and Arbenz and the Dulles boys and the CIA.  And then Reagan fighting the "communists" (they were in large part religiously motivated farmers fighting for their rights against a dictatorhsip)in Guatemala in the 1980s....resulting in a horrific genocide...Realpolitik is immoral and unjustifiable.....

    Corporate interests and trade are the driving force behind U.S. foreign policy.  It is now oil. McCain justifies his bellicose comments about Georgia based on an oil pipeline in the southern part of the country.

    Yes, I agree, it is not always that simple....but it often is....and with McCain doing his best to revive the Cold War...over an oil pipeline.

    We often do not live in a black-and-white world....but McCain in charge of foreign policy means more war.....and that is the current context of this discussion.

     

    Cure for my election apathy: listen to McCain (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:45:59 AM EST
    Last night's Saddleback event taught me a lesson:  when I retreat into apathy about this election, the cure for that is to listen to McCain. I do not like or respect Obama or his supporters at times, but McCain MUST be stopped. Around halfway through McCain's segment last night, I would have gladly gone out and pounded on doors for Obama, and that's saying a lot.

    From McCain last night:  war, war, war; American imperialism is a moral imperative; this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles; the worst SC judges are Ginsberg and Souter; don't raise taxes; oil, oil, oil; etc. In short, Bush but worse. We can't let this happen.

    Sorry to be O/T.

    Parent

    Bush is a dumb*ss (5.00 / 0) (#8)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:02:49 AM EST
    and generally recognized as such....He was controlled by Cheney or Cheney's ideas....

    McCain is ad hoc, and strikes out emotionally, and makes Cheney look restrained....Everything is about war and defeating the "enemy," which McCain will invent or create if need be.....

    I was shocked at how almost-mad (truly nuts) McCain is over war....And he has a good chance of winning...

    Parent

    The Washington Post (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by BernieO on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:29:17 AM EST
    has an article in its Outlook section today, "If You Can't Say Something Nice....." Which has 3 essays on how history will treat Bush much more gently than we think. Yikes!

    It is this kind of revisionism expertly practiced by conservatives which has made their view of capitalism - an unregulated market will cure all your ills - the accepted wisdom in our country. Reagan was the guy who sold this free market fundamentalism with all is fantasy ideas like tax cuts pay for themselves, the government is bad, all regulation is bad, etc. Even though nothing worked out the way he promised - we had ballooning deficits and deregulation led to meltdowns like the S&L crisis, for example - conservatives had an organized effort to disappear these facts and canonize Reagan as an economic genius.

    Democrats are pathetic in responding to these tactics. For example Jimmy Carter set us firmly on the road to energy independence and we were making great strides in that direction. Reagan came along whistling "Don't Worry, Be Happy" and told us there was no coming oil shortage and undid Carter's policies. Even now when those chickens have come home to roost, you do not hear Democratic leaders pointing this out. You are more likely to hear them talk about how terrible Carter was.

    Unregulated, extreme capitalism is not good for any democracy. Just look back to the pre-Teddy Roosevelt days to see how little freedom ordinary working people had. Capitalism is about making profits, pure and simple so it is always looking for a cheap source of labor to exploit - hence the demonization of unions - and will do it wherever possible. If capitalism is allowed to operate freely you wind up with power and wealth in the hands of a few, large numbers of lower class people (because workers have no benefits or protections) and a weak middle class. There has never been a healthy democracy with this kind of division of wealth and power.  That is why government is essential in making sure that a capitalist system is not allowed to take away the freedoms of the less powerful by keeping people mired in poverty with no recourse against abusive treatment. A strong, large middle class is an essential for democracy and this has never occurred without government policies designed to promote the middle class, not the plutocrats.


    Parent

    WaPo is Bush's state organ (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:53:20 AM EST
    The Middle Class (none / 0) (#60)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:17:14 PM EST
    in this country did best in the post WWII years....up until the 1ate 1960s when progress stopped and real wages flattened out--except for the late 1990s.

    Maybe that was just U.S. dominance in the world without serious competition....But, it was also a time when there was substantical governmental support for the middle class.

    Parent

    Thank you Bernie. Are you (none / 0) (#102)
    by hairspray on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:02:44 PM EST
    Kevin Phillips in disguise?  Kevin's excellent book "Wealth and Democracy" says everything you said only with more footnotes and tables.

    Parent
    Absolutely (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:52:46 AM EST
    McCain is a very dangerous man.

    Parent
    I was planning to vote for a (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Aqua Blue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:57:21 PM EST
    Republican President for the first time in my fairly long life.   But...

    what you said about McCain has convinced me
    (perhaps momemtarily) to vote for Obama.

    You points force me to push back my anger over treatment of my beloved Hillary and TRY to focus on McCain's war mongering.  

    I am still so unbelievably angry, it will take more refocusing on McCain's negatives to actually pull the lever for Obama.   I am TRYING to get there.

    BTD...your discussion makes me look again to the dangers of capitalism out of control.  We must have restraints to protect the common good.  

    Parent

    McCain was simply unbelievable last night (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:21:18 PM EST
    It was a toxic brew of warmongering, protection of the rich at the expense of everyone else, and bigotry to win back the extreme right-wing base.

    Listen, I completely understand your anger. I also understand and have empathy for the PUMA point of view. People witnessed some real ugliness from their own party during this primary, were treated contemptuously, and I will never ever forget how bad Hillary was treated and the blithe acceptance of sexism from the left.

    But I'm telling you - take a dose of McCain every once in a while and you will see what I mean. I had not been listening to him or watching him for a while, and it was truly horrifying.

    Parent

    Yay! (none / 0) (#82)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Black and white (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:37:13 AM EST
    Incredible.

    So, invade Russia? China? I mean, if realpolitik is "immoral and indefensible" that seems the logical end?

    You are exactly what I am talking about.

    Parent

    No, of course not (none / 0) (#61)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:18:11 PM EST
    Invade no one....But no need to cut favorable trade deals either.

    Parent
    Your hyperbolic rhetoric (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:20:22 PM EST
    does not match your policy prescriptions.

    Rendering it rather silly don't you think? A trade deal is an affront to morality? But we let China hold Tibet against its will?

    You just practiced real politik in your description of what should be done. But you call it "immoral and indefensible." See how ridiculous that is?

    Parent

    You miss my point (none / 0) (#66)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:26:36 PM EST
    Realpolitik meant death in Central America....

    I am a dove and generally opposed to War.  Realpolitik and Kissinger meant supporting proxy wars and death, supporting dictators because they were "opposed" to "Communism."

    The opposite of Realpolitik is not military aggression but rather a foreign policy that would emphasize human rights.  Carter had it right--he was unfairly criticized.

    In today's context, we do not need a new Cold War to protect the oil pipeline in Georgia...and we need to get out of Iraq.

    You got me totally wrong.

    Parent

    McCain supported dictatorship (none / 0) (#67)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:31:12 PM EST
    in Pakistan in the name of realpolitic, suggested that Pakistan became a failed state when it had Democratic governments (though  Pakistan's radicalization occured mostly under military dictators like Zia-Ul-Haq and Pervez Musharraf) and spoke out against independent investigation of Benzir Bhutto's assasination. Pakistan exported nuclear technology to autocratic nations around the world during Musharaff's dictatorship, the attack on the world trade center also occured with this general in charge. I believe that Obama can tie Musharraf like a millstone on McCain neck while questioning his judgement on foreign policy issues. At this time, Musharraf is on the verge of impeachment in Pakistan.

    Parent
    McCain and Musharraf link (none / 0) (#69)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:34:13 PM EST
    You can ot tar real politik (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:36:32 PM EST
    with every stupidity done in its name.

    That is reductio ad absurdum.
     

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:57:25 AM EST
    It seems to me that liberalization of markets increases the living standard of the common man only to the extent that the political systems of our trading partners permit the profits of trade to flow to the common man.

    This is why the opposite end of the political spectrum from free trade is not isolationism, but trade with enforceable wage and working conditions standards.

    Indeed, this is why trade with China today represents a much different proposition than did trade with China in the 1980s.  Not that China or any other country practices unfettered capitalism to the same extent as the US, of course, but at least they're partway down the road by now.

    I would disagree (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:59:21 AM EST
    Capitalism in China today is very much like capitalism in the U.S. circia 1900.

    We do not practice unfettered capitalism here.

    Parent

    Hm? (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:05:26 AM EST
    Are you suggesting that China has robber baron capitalism with virtually no government regulation?  Still looks awfully centrally planned to me.

    Parent
    Yes, Robber Barons (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:52:05 AM EST
    The Chinese Army is one of the Robber Barons.

    I think andgarden makes very good points here.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#39)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:56:02 AM EST
    From where I sit, China seems to be bringing an actual middle class into existence - robber barons notwithstanding - which to me is the sine qua non.

    Parent
    A rising tide lifts all boats (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:08:23 PM EST
    even in the era of the Robber Barons.

    The question is whether it does it enough no?

    Parent

    Those $20 DVD players are coming from (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:07:39 AM EST
    central planning?

    Parent
    Um (none / 0) (#19)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:29:56 AM EST
    Yes?

    There is more than one type of governmental regulation, you know.  The kind that results in minimum wage, health and safety rules, environmental protection and so forth is only one type.

    Parent

    I don't follow (none / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:35:54 AM EST
    are you saying that a) electronic/consumer goods are being produced in China mostly at the behest of the government; and b) that the production is not economically rational, given the conditions of the market? Are you also saying that there aren't Chinese nationals making money off of the boom? Certainly there is a policy of a weak yuan, but the point of that is growth.

    Parent
    Great Post (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:43:36 AM EST
    Much food for thought.  Barrington Moore, Jr. has an old book called "Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy" which exams the revolutions of the U.S., England, France, Russia and China; one thesis of his book is that democracy is supported by industrialization.  It was a worthy read many moons again and I suspect it is now.  Moore was prof of political science.  As I recall, the book is also very well written & easy to read.
    I keep meaning to reread it...

    Parent
    According to Thomas Jefferson..... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Aqua Blue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:44:51 PM EST
    The "rich" and the role they play have always been a threat to liberty, leading Jefferson to observe,

    "That liberty [is pure] which is to go to all, and not to the few or the rich alone." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio Gates, 1798.

    As a rule, the wealthy do fairly well under any form of government. The rich have always worked their way into government to their own advantage, and to the detriment of the poor.

    "Experience declares that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the governments of Europe, and to the general prey of the rich on the poor." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787.


    Parent

    Is this a response to me? (none / 0) (#91)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:34:52 PM EST
    Barrington Moore's book, which was recommended to me by a left-leaning history professor, is rather nuanced; it looks at many different historical, economic and political factors that he believes affected the development of attributes of democracy in the political arena.  One point I recall is that agricultural societies, such as 17th century England, pre-revolutionary China, etc. generally don't support democracy. As for the notion that the rich always do well, I suppose that's true for the most part, just as power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Parent
    Money going to the top (none / 0) (#9)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:04:47 AM EST
    in a rigged system....That seems to be what China is....And, the U.S.?  Sure, everyone has a fair shot....sure.

    Parent
    Just wait (none / 0) (#95)
    by BernieO on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:46:59 PM EST
    The Republicans have been pushing us in that direction - with a lot of success, I might add - since Reagan. The lack of both consumer and worker protection, the deregulation of financial institutions, the equating of money with speech giving special interests such political clout, the attacks on our social safety net and our disaster of a free market health care system all have contributed to destablilizing the middle class and have moved us closer to rule by oligarchy.

    Parent
    Morality and/in Foreign Policy (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Polkan on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:02:43 AM EST
    I think that's where everything has fell apart and nobody has been able to make sense of it ever since. I think I'm closer to BTD than the kos writer, but still.

    Remove morality and you get this:

    Jefferson: "..Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

    Washington: "Harmony, liberal intercourse, with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity and interest. The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible.....why entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of (their) ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?"

    John Quincy Adams: "America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She well knows that by enlisting under the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. She would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit."


    Hard to beat the Founding Fathers (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by RalphB on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:13:48 AM EST
    In order to get one of them in power now, we'd have to change our primary and campaign finance systems such that they would be unrecognizable.  Let's do it.

    Parent
    Understandable. (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:17:19 AM EST
    The founding fathers couldn't afford foreign entanglements...they had a nation to build with few people to do it.  What they did have was vision and seemingly endless possibility with seemingly endless natural resources.

    Conveniently, they 'forgot' the foreign entanglement with the French, without whom our independence might not have been achieved.

    Emerson was right:  A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

    And BTD is right.  The color is grey.

    Parent

    I think you are confused (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Polkan on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:30:11 AM EST
    between the path towards independence by a colony and the founding principle of an independent country.

    That's why you can't see beyond grey.

    Parent

    China was on track with the help (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:07:12 AM EST
    of the Bush administration to getting MFN trade status.  (Most Favored Nation)

    Tianamen threatened to derail that train.  

    It was important for the Bush administration to be seen by the American public as responding negatively to the Chinese, but at the same time to keep relations with China on track.  DT is not wrong when he says that the issue of trade was extremely influential in how the Bush Administration responded.  If human rights principles had prevailed, the potential for MFN status would have been pulled, but that was not going to happen because there were too many American companies who saw a long-term benefit in getting into China - having access to cheap labor chief among them.

    I have to disagree that global markets are good for the US when the bottom line is that the main reason for the globalization is to take advantage of cheap labor.  I am all for having the people of other countries rise up out of poverty etc., but how we have done that with China is not in my opinion a good model on a lot of levels - it certainly hasn't helped our labor force stay out of poverty either.

    During the Tianamen crisis I was working for an international company.  We had an office in Beijing and represented these corporations who had great intrests in getting China MFN status.  The extent of terror and death at Tianamen Square during those days is really not fully understood by most Westerners and likely very few Chinese anymore.  I've seen footage that was smuggled out of the country shortly after of what happened there that almost no one has ever seen - gruesome and far worse that most people understand.  I am afraid my close proximity to the event will forever prevent me from rationalizing over-looking China's horrible behavior towards their own people.  

    Now when I see pictures of the pollution, the industrial waste, the people in the factories, read about polticial prisoners, the lack of healthcare and education in the rural regions I am fairly confident that we did not do anyone any favors by over-looking China's treatment of their people in Tianamen Square.  I believe we missed an opportunity to change their course because at that time we were a very desireable market for them - we were THE market - a status we enjoy less and less now.  At that time, MFN status was the prize.  By failing to make humanitarian rights an integral part of receiving the prize, we blew it for ourselves and the Chinese people.  I think we managed to lower our own standard of living and limit the extent to which theirs will ever rise.

    No one overlooked it (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:51:02 AM EST
    I do not want to get into a specific debate with you but will only ask you this question - what should the US have done in response?

    Parent
    Shut down the track towards (none / 0) (#84)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    MFN status instead of being so impatient about opening that market that we compromised everyone's long term interests - except of course those of the power-brokers in the Chinese government and US companies like WalMart.

    We would have prevailed.  It would have taken time, but China would have adjusted and made concessions.

    Once they got MFN status and Hillary Clinton went over and challenged them on their treatment of women and girls in that famous speech - all I thought at the time was - "Too late."

    Here we are years later griping about their rampant pollution and how they treat their citizenry while we watch the Olympic Games play out in their capital city.  "Too late."  Again.

    Parent

    Hmmmmm (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:10:07 AM EST
    Unlike most of you, I also believe that liberalization of global markets is also on the balance in the best interest of the United States and the World - living standards across the world rise as trade is liberalized.

    I happen to be like you in this.  In fact, one of the issues I had with certain bloggers on the left was their black and white view of NAFTA as bad.  
    In my view, all of our trade deals have problems not because of NAFTA but because of the weakness within it (which can be changed but won't be as long as certain legislators have conflict of interests......which is wanting cheap, non union labor so their rich friends make huge profits).

    Even though I have always been strong pro union and think our labor problems here come from the fact that the right wing has been able to spin the word UNION as negative as it has spun liberal, in the end, we are global.  That genie is out of the bottle.  Our problem is complex.

    Way back when (1950s) my mother worked at a non union textile mill.  The women were all immigrants like my mother and paid poorly, and treated like dirt.
    I was little but I remember my mother and her colleagues meeting, and I remember seeing/hearing fear and anger.  And being told to not say women had met at our house.  It was not until later that I understood they were meeting to form a union and people were scared and threatened.  In the end, they failed.  The company shut down in our area (northeast) and moved to the south (where unions were rare).  

    Now companies do the same thing only instead of moving to other areas in the USA where labor laws had gotten stronger, they started moving to places where labor laws are non existent.  

    It's done now.  We cannot undo the globalization.  In places like India and China where going from no jobs, subsistence farming to factory jobs at even a dollar an hour, was an improvement.

    Our problem is not globalization as I see it.  It's understanding that we cannot keep using so much of the world's resources; that other peoples' way of life is improving and that that is good and that we need to get a clue as to the difference of needs and wants.  
    We NEED Healthcare.  We may WANT houses with 2500 square feet, but we don't NEED them.  
    We NEED transportation that is cheap and reliable.  We may want two SUV's in the driveway but we don't NEED those.
    We NEED to be able to water crops we grow to eat. We may want to be able to water our Kentucky bluegrass in AZ but we don't need to.

    World trade is a complex issue.  It affects everything and everyone.  Just like energy. Just like the environment.  It's time Americans grown up and stop thinking we are more important than others and start understanding cooperation is a better solution than competition.

    I was with you until (none / 0) (#17)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:27:49 AM EST
    the last sentence.

    Competetion is in American DNA.  ("We're Number One!")

    Parent

    For real???? (4.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:41:15 AM EST
    Or snark?

    I agree, (many/some) Americans seemed to be programmed to compete.  And because of that I see the assault on the public systems that are non-profit.  Like education.  I am a retired teacher.  When I see the mentality for merit pay, for making teachers/schools compete against each other for money, I see the future and it is bleak.  Competition between teachers is bad for kids.  Educators' goals should be for all kids...eventually.  In other words, I suddenly discovered a way (that could be packaged) to get students with learning disabilities to overcome them, then instead of sharing with every teacher/every colleague, I should keep it to myself, find a publisher/vendor and sell to the highest bidder.  That is what I see happening.  Competing for profit when it comes to education is as bad as competing when it comes to healthcare. I think it is wrong and that cooperation is what benefits the public good.

    Parent

    Both...for snarky real. (none / 0) (#74)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:42:47 PM EST
    You have opened Pandora's Box and I think we are now off topic, sequeing into education.  I'd love to engage this issue with you.

    I, too, am a former teacher, former school board member, former college trustee, former student and parent of one...and I would disagree with your assessment of the problem.  

    I would say the biggest problem in public education is the denial of reality, the unwillingness to address the real problems and take responsibility at every level of public education.  Every level.

    Maybe we can talk about it some time.

    Parent

    Well to be clear (none / 0) (#83)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:05:32 PM EST
    Merit pay, privatization, etc are not the ONLY problems in education.  I understand the situation is complex.  Nothing is ever black and white.  

    If there were a magic bullet to solve the problems of educating the masses of any country, believe me, I would take it.  Humans are not widgets and as long the human beings are complex rather than robotic, unique in the ability, unique in their timelines to grow and learn, teaching them will be complex.  Setting up artificial standards to me was about making sure the "clients" (parents and taxpayers) were happy more than making sure each child was getting to learn, grow and achieve at their best.

    But yes, it would be an interesting conversation.
    I went to private/catholic schools as a kid; taught in public schools, as well as taught in private and public college programs for future educators (mostly MA programs).  

    Parent

    Attitude. (none / 0) (#94)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:46:47 PM EST
    In a word, that is the problem as I see it.

    Fear produces attitude...and cheating...denial and defensiveness in the educational establishment.

    Expectations are unrealistic at every turn but no one can defend giving a diploma to a kid who can't read it...or make change or fill out a job application.

    Given the millions of classrooms which must be staffed, no one should expect that each would be led by a Rhodes scholar.  Still, hiring of unskilled teachers and principals for all the wrong reasons (we need a football coach!) or teachers who do not themselves have a good education, don't know the difference, make little effort to improve themselves (much less acknowledge their individual shortcomings) and then pass on their ignorance to their students.

    To me, the issue is one of honest self assessment and we Americans are appallingly unskilled in that department.  We do not know our strengths and weaknesses and that is a huge problem.  Too many wannabes who can't cut the mustard and never will.  How can we be successful educators if we don't go with our individual strengths and improve our weaknesses?  Until we do...no hope for positive change.

    I only taught for 5 years, recognizing that it was not for me...it was not my strength in the current public school system (50 years ago!)  It hasn't gotten better...only bigger, and therefore, worse.

    Parent

    You are right (none / 0) (#105)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:21:42 PM EST
    too many people in the profession who shouldn't be and too many rewarded for all the wrong reasons.  I was in the profession for nearly 40 years and for 30 years in the classroom.  The last ten years I was the media/library/tech person since I got my MA in Ed Tech.  My strengths were with working with kids, 5th and 6th grade especially.  
    I always tell young teachers.....recognize what you are good at doing and work with that and with your team.  I was especially good at math and science for advanced kids and struggled with kids who struggled with math.  Fortunately I seemed to always end up on teams with colleagues who were the exact opposite...that is, they were much more comfortable with kids who struggled in math.  

    Teaching, in my view, is much more of an art than a science.  My cardiologist said the same thing about medicine.  You can have two students with similar IQ's and backgrounds, strengths and weaknesses yet teaching them would not be the same if one happens to be more hands on and the other more cerebal.  Good teachers never teach one way....the best teachers use everything: music, humor, voice, touch whatever it takes.  But teachers, the good ones, can tell you: this student achieves daily in everything, tests poorly.  This student does little daily, tests well.  This student has great people skills, this one uses art and music....and so on and so forth.  
    We also know kids develop differently timewise.
    I loved sixth graders but with some of them, I knew instinctively they were developmentally behind their peers; i.e. every bit as capable but just not there yet.

    My best feedback always came from kids who contacting me when they were adults; or at least in college to let me know how they were doing, or why they learned well from me.  A few were high testers; some were not. In fact one boy, who always scored on the bottom end of standardized tests called me to let me know he had made it to college and wanted me to know it helped that I never discouraged.  My point is this:  it's not always about the math, the science, the subject which is all that tests do: assess.  Sometimes it is about encouraging, giving confidence to, cheerleading for.  

    The best teachers don't need awards and/or merit pay.  But they do need a decent living where they do not have to leave because they cannot support their families.  And the best teachers need to be able to stay at schools for a long time because establishing relationships with community (parents, students, neighborhood) is a huge positive particularly in low achieving schools.  The problem is that now, teachers in those schools are often threatened with closure, loss of job because of test scores.  Why work there when you can work at a high achieving school where your kids on the first day are already in the 90th percentile?

    My plan has been this: create a "service merit/bonus" for teachers willing to commit to x amount of years in certain schools in traditionally low achieving areas.  Make it lucrative enough so that the best teachers compete for a position.  I really think you would see positive changes.  As well, I think patience is necessary.  Communities have to first trust the schools and staff and that takes time.  

    Anyway this has been interesting.  

    Parent

    Couple of quick thoughts (none / 0) (#111)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:03:25 PM EST
    before I dash off to Habitat for the afternoon...

    First, your last line re trust.  I just can't agree.  Trust, like respect, must be earned.  It cannot be given without a reason and there is no reason these days to trust public schools and staff.  In my district, they lie and obfuscate.

    Like your 'service/merit bonus' for low-achieving areas.  It won't be enough but it would help THEM.

    And just in passing, I know of NO teachers in my state who have had to leave because they couldn't support their families.  Salaries are good...not great, but good....average is over $50,000, beginners over $30,000.  It ain't minimum wage.

    Parent

    It depends on where you live (none / 0) (#112)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:18:54 PM EST
    Most urban areas have decent salaries, low starting but easy enough to improve.  Rural areas...not so much.  

    That is a pretty broad statement about not trusting public schools.  ALL OF THEM...everywhere.  Sorry that kind of generalization never works for me.

    And give me proof that all the private schools and their staffs should be trusted.  

    No system will be perfect, especially not in a democracy. No one can guarantee ever that when they hire a teacher that he/she is going to be great.  But you can't deny employment to new untested teachers because there is no proof they will be great.  It's complicated.  And yes, some school boards are not to be trusted.....and some administrations are top heavy and not to be trusted and egads, some teachers are not so great.  Guess what, some parents are not so hot either.

    Trust is a part of the game when you bring your child to anyone....be it a public school teacher, a babysitter or a nun.  As long as human beings are involved there are guarantees.

    Parent

    Dang. Gotta reply now (none / 0) (#115)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:45:30 PM EST
    for if I wait til I get back, the thread will be full and closed to responses!  Happens to me all the time...

    So...we have a statewide salary schedule...it applies in both urban and rural, although there are local enhancements by passing local levies raising property taxes and some can be added to salaries.

    Then, trust, I repeat, is earned in my book.  The public doesn't trust 'THE' public schools...they trust the one their kid is in, tho....usually.  That's what I see here.  It's a lot like congress...they hate them all except for their own who they keep reelecting!

    RE trust...I see that I have made you defensive about public education, since you bring up private schools and their staffs as a counter argument.  I never mentioned them...that would be competetion.  I can talk about that, but not today.  Out of time...

    I check references as a parent and trust no one when I took my child to....anyone.  Yes, I was cautious...and glad I was when I see the results of parents who weren't/aren't.  Different levels, of course, for different ages of kids as I began to trust THEM to clue me in to adults who shouldn't be trusted in some venue...Scouts, school, neighborhood....

    But finally....we agree, I think, on many things including this, I hope (I think you mis-typed!):  Where human beings are involved, there are NO guarantees.

    Have a lovely Sunday...thanks for the dialogue.

    Parent

    I probably should not even comment on this (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:38:29 AM EST
    but the US has taken a hit on all this proclaimed capitalism for the world.

    The record profits for corporations, human rights abuses, child labor abuses negate any rah rah for the US being concerned about spreading wealth to the universe.

    What I see is a return to class division.  Who is really benefiting here? Corporations and stockholders and the powerful who can just take the cream off the top leaving the rest stagnant.

    The idea of "hemispherical development" veered off the track, in my opinion. The US, as social worker to the world, is choking on it's grand idea.
     

    The problem is the spin (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:02:51 PM EST
    I don't believe for even a minute that there was ever any desire on the part of our government to "spread democracy" and make things better for peoples of poverty stricken countries.  

    While on the 1950s the government was silent on what it was really doing in South and Central America, the American population was easily spun into believing we were "countering the evils of communism."  So many immigrants/uneducated people like my parents and grandparents were easily led because they or their parents had escaped the evils of fascism in the poorer parts of Europe.  They did not really think about ideology......fascism vs communism.  America gave them a chance at getting their children fed, educated and healthy.  

    It was not for many until the 60s when the truths about America's support for right wing dictators became something people talked about.....as sort of an extension to understanding Vietnam and the "domino" theory.  And yet still, many, all the way through Reagan's rah rah rhetoric bought it.  

    So now here we are and W has been pushing that crap all through his administration.  His neocon friends and him were appalled by Clinton's making nice with poor countries, instead of continuing the spin of the imperialists.  Clinton thought NAFTA was a way to come together..work with other countries.  Of course it ended up flawed because of the power of corporate America....but in the end it was the right approach.  But it is flawed and it will take a long time to get the kind of balance good for all.  It did veer off track because of the power and greed of corporate America.......and the fascist tendencies of the oil men running our country.  This marriage of corporations with government grew strong because of Reagan, a man still adored by too many in our government.  

    Parent

    No one can deny it? (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Romberry on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:47:02 AM EST
    You wrote "After all, no one can deny that Iraq is more free today after the toppling of Saddam Hussein."

    Well...I deny it. Iraq is NOT more free today. Certainly Iraqi women are not "more free" than they were in a society where crime was low, the government was secular and educational and career opportunities in professional fields were expressly open to all genders.

    And are the Iraqi people "more free"? I don't think so. In Hussein's Iraq, the people who had to worry were those who were politically opposed to the rule of Hussein. If you were not a dissident, your life was not lived under a cloud of fear. Now everyone in Iraq, or at least ordinary people, live in fear. They fear religious extremists. They fear crime. They fear being caught on the wrong side of the street based on whether they are Shia or Sunni. This is not "more free", whatever else it may be.

    So...yes, someone can argue that Iraq is not more free today than it was under Hussein. I make that argument. A life of constant fear is many things, but free it is not.

    Seems to me (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:06:40 PM EST
    you are spinning that a bit.

    The Shia in the south lived in poverty and fear under Hussein.   The Iraq under Hussein was good for some, not for all...sort of like 1950s America.  Often described by some as the "good old days", their nostalgia painting a life of simplicity and hapiness, the 1950s were pretty much the good old only for white males.  Women and minorities were often denied the chance for anything.  

    Husseins Iraq like the Peacock Thrones Iran like Pinochet's Chile were only selectively nice places.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:49:28 AM EST
    You can deny it I suppose. I meant it rhetorically.

    I find your denial silly. Like it or not, Iraq does elect its government now.

    Parent

    hmmm (none / 0) (#89)
    by DaleA on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:22:13 PM EST
    there are reports on 60 Minutes about the death squads stalking Iraqi Christians. They showed one congregation where almost all adult males had been murdered. The survivors were shown and told their stories. The common theme was that every Iraqi Christian who could leave the country had left. Only the poor remained. This does not sound like an advance of freedom.

    The gay press reports on the death campaign against gay people in Iraq. And has detailed some of the known murders. Interviews with gay men who fled abroad have a common theme. Under Sadam, gay life existed in Iraq. There were gathering places and a nascent movement. Now there is only fear and danger. Gay men are being killed all over Iraq. This also does not sound like an advance of freedom.

    Parent

    The last I heard women (none / 0) (#101)
    by BernieO on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:57:17 PM EST
    had lost freedoms in Iraq and were being pushed to live under strick Mulim rules - head covering, etc. I do not know if this has improved or not but if not, I think this a big setback.

    Parent
    Good argument. (none / 0) (#31)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:50:22 AM EST
    I disagree (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:56:18 AM EST
    The argument is that Iraq's freedom has not between beneficial to Iraq, something entirely different.

    I label it a red herring.

    Parent

    Well, maybe. (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:24:31 PM EST
    One person's red herring is another debater's definition of 'the issue.'

    In this case, you are talking about "Iraq's freedom being beneficial to Iraq" - the country.

    The poster is talking about Iraq's citizens...its people...and their personal freedom as a measurement of the country's freedom.  I think it's valid.

    No question that the Kurds are more free and enjoy more autonomy with fewer threats to their daily lives.  The rest of the country?  Not so much.  

    And then there are those who fled the country and have not come back to enjoy their new 'freedom.'  To that I add the increasing pressure for the US to take in many thousands of 'endangered' Iraq refugees who cannot be left behind in their new free country.

    It's grey.

    Parent

    After all, death is the (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:35:35 PM EST
    ultimate freedom, and there are a lot of dead Iraqis as the result of our war.

    Parent
    No it is not (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:33:40 PM EST
    For example, you put quote marks around a phrase I NEVER used - "Iraq's freedom being beneficial to Iraq" - when you start falsely attributing arguments to someone, it actually is charitable to call it a red herring - it becomes, charitably a straw man.

    I never said it or argued it. I said what you implicitly accept - that Iraq is FREER now. My argument is that freedom for the world as a foreign policy goal is of course good but not every action can guided by that principle alone. That is, for the US, the fact that Iraq is freer because Saddam was toppled by the US did not make the US better off.

    That is all I said. Now, if someone wanted to argue that - "in addition, Iraq is not better off" instead of pretending that I SAID Iraq is better off, then we can discuss that tangential point.

    The comment first, and then you, attributed an argument to me that I did not make. I do not appreciate that and I know of no one who would appreciate that form of debate.

    Parent

    Sheesh. (none / 0) (#85)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:12:38 PM EST
    Guess it didn't occur to you that I had misread your comment to which I responded.

    It isn't my style to deliberately put words in the mouths of others and misquote them.  I think you know that by now.

    Tippytoeing away to get more coffee...not to wake sleeping dragons.

    Parent

    It is not your style (none / 0) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:18:16 PM EST
    And it surprised me to see you doing it.

    Good to see it was a mistake.

    Parent

    That's called oppression (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:56:01 AM EST
    In Hussein's Iraq, the people who had to worry were those who were politically opposed to the rule of Hussein.

    And I would not regard Iraq today free of political oppression, either.

    But I've heard that Saddam was just dealing with this people the only way he could.  It's kind of like a rationalization.  No.  It's political oppression.   It's wrong.  It's such an anti-thesis of freedom that I would regard Iraq more free today than under Saddam.  It's the worst kind.  

    And yes.  Cultural oppression still exists.  As it does in any country.  Well.  Maybe worse as far as women's rights are concerned.

    Parent

    An obvious point imo (none / 0) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:06:59 PM EST
    But thanks for making it.

    Parent
    Agree (none / 0) (#100)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:53:28 PM EST
    When Petraeus last testified before Congres, Senator Menendez read a list of facts about Iraq and asked P how he viewed them; the facts were about the greater health problems, the absence of potable drinking water, lower numbers of children attending school, lack of electricity, etc., all as compared most unfavorably to pre-invasion Iraq.  Petraeus asked where Menendez got his info, and Menendez replied that he was reading from materials being circulated among "us" (the Senate? a committee of the Senate).  I have seen many reports such as these from outside the U.S. and/or progressive think tanks.  To me, the dislocation of millions from their homes, the day-in, day-out fear of violence, and the fleeing of the professional classes (doctors, etc) from the country, the abysmal health conditions, the reduced availability of electricity to about 1 hour daily, etc. do not mean things are better.  If I find a reference to what Menendez was citing or something similar, I'll post a link.  
    I think information regarding the true state of Iraq has gotten lost in the rallying cry to support the surge and its supposed success.  The danger, imo, of having a presidential candidate who is on the defensive in establishing his foreign policy bona fides is that, as much as he may be aware that conditions in Iraq are not great and the surge was not the unqualified success McCain and the administration would have us believe, he feels constrained to go along with the fable lest he seem to be criticizing the troops and America itself.  

    Parent
    Difficult. (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by lentinel on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:08:46 PM EST
    It was difficult to concentrate on your entire post because of some statements that stopped me in my tracks.

    The first being, "I favor lifting the Cuba embargo, but not because it promises freedom for Cuba but because it is an ineffective foreign policy."

    Yes. It is an ineffective foreign policy. It has obviously failed to oust Castro. But that leaves out the human equation. It has caused needless hardship on the Cuban people.
    It has also abridged our right to travel, a right other civilized nations enjoy.

    The second comment that made me gasp was, "...no one can deny that Iraq is more free today after the toppling of Saddam Hussein. But it also can not be denied that the US is much worse off because of the toppling of Saddam Hussein by the US."

    As others have commented, I think Iraq is no more "free" than it was under Saddam. People are being killed daily. They are saddled with an occupying force of foreign troops. Their basic services have yet to be restored. What does "free" mean under these circumstances? This doesn't even take into account the 1,000,000 people who were forced to flee their homes and their country.

    I agree that the U.S. is worse off. But the main reason for this is, in my opinion, the subverting of the constitution, the lies, the intimidation of the press and our political process.

    I couldn't get past these phrases to concentrate on the comments about capitalism, but I will try to do so later.

    To be frank (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:15:42 PM EST
    I do not find your comment worth responding to.

    Neither one of your points is worthy.

    On Cuba, you bring forth a red herring.

    On Iraq, you want to redefine the word freedom.

    I will not bite.

    Moving along now.

    Parent

    Contempt (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by lentinel on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:32:52 PM EST
    You say the reason for ending the Cuban embargo is because it is
    ineffective. I say it should be ended because it is cruel. I say it should be ended because Americans should have a right to travel wherever they want - unless there is a clear danger to their personal safety.

    This is what you refer to as a red herring and unworthy of your response.

    No response is necessary.

    Your use of the word "freer" with respect to Iraq since the invasion and killing of Saddam obviously means something to you.  I was startled to read what you said because the only people I had heard referring to freedom in Iraq were members of the Bush administration.

    You say I am "redefining" the word freedom.
    I ask for your definition. I don't know what Bush is talking about and I don't know what you're talking about.

    You deem this unworthy of a response.

    No response is necessary.

    Parent

    Don't bite. (none / 0) (#97)
    by lentinel on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:49:29 PM EST
    Just give me your definition of "freedom" as you suggest it is experienced in today's Iraq.

    Parent
    Troubled (none / 0) (#109)
    by lentinel on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:42:51 PM EST
    I am troubled that in mentioning the ways I felt the U.S. is worse off since the Iraq war, I neglected to mention the human toll.

    Parent
    what course of action... (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:13:03 PM EST
    ...should we have taken after Tiananmen?

    The same we should always take with nations like that which do such things: rip them a new as*hole by first ripping ourselves a new one.  It's called radical humility.  We should always address these situations by first announcing loudly and clearly how our own sh*t stinks, being unsparing in our self-criticism, then we do the same with them -- whoever they are.

    We are still a nation that has no idea to practice genuine humility in foreign policy.  Just as free markets and all that other rot (which is good, but also, let's remember, the entire point of unfettered free markets is to employ as few people as possible and pay them as little as possible -- please don't put your head in the sand about that, it is an undeniable reality) radical humility evidences exactly the emotional and social qualities we must project to have any humane legitimacy.

    Of course we can't do this until we have decided to stop murdering people for oil, for prestige, for whatever "national interest" we concoct to justify it, since the only national interest that really matters is the one which ensures our OWN freedom and full employment.

    The same qualities we admire in other human beings are the same qualities we should be emulating as a nation.  Sadly, with the rare exception of natural disasters (and even then -- can you say, um, Katrina -- we often fall inhumanely short even on our OWN shores) we don't show the world much of anything but malevolent hypocrisy.

    Humility is our only hope.  We haven't come close to perfecting it, however.  

    Thius, believe it or not, (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:16:48 PM EST
    is a very good point to me.

    I am an American Exceptionalist and I think what you describe what add to my theory if we did it.

    Parent

    American Exceptionalism (none / 0) (#73)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:42:20 PM EST
    That is Bill Kristol's hobby horse.  One can define it any number of ways but the term "American Exceptionalism" does come with the connotation applied to it by Kristol and the neoconservatives.

    I in the power of good that American can bring....I do not believe in the jingoistic hard power that Kristol and others advocate...

    Parent

    Neither do I (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:55:18 PM EST
    I will not allow Kristol and the Neo Cons hijack the real meaning of American Exceptionalism.

    Parent
    Good luck (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:56:15 PM EST
    Democrats don't generally win these definitional battles.

    Parent
    Why do you think that is? (none / 0) (#81)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:58:36 PM EST
    I do not agree with American Exceptionalism (none / 0) (#79)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:57:03 PM EST
    But some definitions certainly do not carry the jingoistic connoatation of Kristol or other neocons.

    Parent
    Several points (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Andreas on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:43:04 PM EST
    BTD wrote:

    a policy for human rights must be tempered by the realities of the national interests of the United States.

    Subordinating human rights to the interests of US imperialism is precisely what George Walker Bush, Richard Cheney, the criminals arround them and the Democrats have been doing for quite a few years.

    After all, no one can deny that Iraq is more free today after the toppling of Saddam Hussein.

    Maybe you start by asking some of the one million people who have died as a result of the war if they agree.

    And after you have done that you might also want to ask some of those who are currently held in torture and concentration camps in Iraq.

    When Russia occupied East Germany, it was a military threat to West Germany.

    The US military in West Germany was a severe military threat (which included nuclear weapons) to East Germany and the Soviet Union.

    German unification ... Capitalism had nothing to do with it.

    The restoration of capitalism in East Germany was the main aim of "German unification".

    See: Stalinism in Eastern Europe:
    the Rise and Fall of the GDR


    Women in Iraq are not more free today (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:50:54 PM EST
    than they were under Saddam.

    I think what many people on the moderate left (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:35:08 AM EST
    object to about the spread of economic freedom is that we consider the protections introduced by both Roosevelts to be essential components of that freedom here at home.

    Clearly capitalism is generally preferred to not capitalism, but it is upsetting to see in countries that don't seriously enforce child labor laws, for example.

    How we correct this--or whether we even can--is a question that I don't have the answer to.

    It is a difficult question (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:53:59 AM EST
    Trade policy is perhaps the most difficult of all questions.

    Parent
    And its very easy to demagogue (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:03:22 PM EST
    remember when W went on the attack against Japanese steal dumping?

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:09:00 PM EST
    But Dems demagogue more than anyone.

    Parent
    U.S. did not adopt these protections right away (none / 0) (#103)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:03:07 PM EST
    Although some might not agree, historical perspective might be useful here:  It took many decades before the U.S. adopted these protections.

    Parent
    What a presumptuous statement... (none / 0) (#16)
    by CK MacLeod on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:23:14 AM EST
    After all, no one can deny that Iraq is more free today after the toppling of Saddam Hussein. But it also can not be denied that the US is much worse off because of the toppling of Saddam Hussein by the US.

    Sure it can be denied.  It's a debatable proposition.  In fact, on the narrow terms offered - benefits or disbenefits of the toppling of Saddam Hussein - the weight of evidence and argument even among war opponents (like Barack Obama who just last night acknowledged the Saddam was a bad person who "meant us ill") is that the US is better off.  As for the broader issues, I see scant evidence that the US is "much worse off" as a result of the war, either in the short term perspective or looking forward to the middle and long term.

    Of course, it all depends upon your perspective - what you accept as evidence and how you define "worse off" - but you'll never get to a reasoned discussion of the role of democratic capitalist values in foreign policy if you insist on a prejudicial reading on the most contentious issues.

    A prejudicial reading? (none / 0) (#21)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:32:00 AM EST
    Absurd.

    BTD's assessment of the costs of the Iraq war is no more prejudicial than yours.  Look in the mirror.  And look around you.  Maybe even do the math.

    Good grief.

    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:32:22 AM EST
    The thought was prejudicial.   I think it's very well thought out.   But yes, the points made debatable.

    I would say that Iraq is more free in a way that may not, for the time being, due to strategic incompetence, cronyism, outright corruption and bad policy, appear very beneficial to Iraqis.

    If Zogby could have polled Iraqis in 1999 I think they would have given a unified answer about Saddam, but this is clearly not what they had in mind.  And so now America's credibility is destroyed and we have a new generation of radicalized Iraqis who now think we're actually worse than Saddam.

    Parent

    If Obama said the US is better off (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:32:46 AM EST
    then he is an idiot or a liar, as would be anyone who said that with a straight face.

    Parent
    Your proposition was: (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by CK MacLeod on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:59:28 AM EST
    it also can not be denied that the US is much worse off because of the toppling of Saddam Hussein by the US.

    If, as Sen Obama stated just last night, Saddam was a bad guy who "meant us ill," then, on the face of it and on the narrow question as stated, we are better off for his having been toppled.  

    The question - the debatable question - is whether the costs were, or are turning out to be, greater than justified.  

    If you're going to insist on referring to anyone who disagress with your conclusion as "an idiot or a liar," then you're obviously someone who is incapable of a civil and responsible discussion on the issues.        

    Parent

    Sorry (5.00 / 0) (#49)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:07:15 PM EST
    Most of us here understand that the costs come with the benefits in a single package.  The issue of whether we are better off with or without Saddam, considered in a vacuum without looking at the costs of deposing him, is academic and irrelevant.

    Parent
    Silly is what it is (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:13:48 PM EST
    To call it academic is to insult academic questions.

    Parent
    Nonsense (1.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:06:23 PM EST
    To say, as you do that because "Saddam was a bad guy who "meant us ill, then, on the face of it and on the narrow question as stated, we are better off for his having been toppled," is simply absurd.

    Indeed, since Obama OPPOSED toppling Saddam, he obviously agreed with me that the US would not be better off "because of the toppling of Saddam Hussein by the US."

    LEt me also be clear with you, that it is my view that anyone who argues the US is BETTER off because WE toppled Saddam isd either an idiot or a liar and nothing will stop me from saying that.

    Fair warning, you NEVER EVER get to comment on my commenting or moderation of this thread. If you think my views idiotic, feel free to say so. Do NOT feel free to comment on my "civility" EVER.

    Next time to you do, you will be permanently banned from my threads.

    Please acknowledge you understand and will comply with the commenting policy in my threads. If you do not, I will ban you from my threads.

    Parent

    Let me be sure I understand... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by CK MacLeod on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:38:20 PM EST
    You write:

    If you think my views idiotic, feel free to say so. Do NOT feel free to comment on my "civility" EVER.

    So, I'm not allowed to object to being referred to as an "idiot or a liar," and you'd rather be called idiotic (or, I presume, dishonest) than "un-civil"?  

    Actually, I don't think your views are idiotic.  I just think they're wrong, especially the view that those who hold a different view must be idiotic or dishonest.  (I don't see how questions of personal honesty even come up, but I fear that to say anything more on this topic would be implicitly to violate the terms of use you say you intend to enforce.)

    As for Obama, you will recall that he made his statements last night in response to a question as his most "gut-wrenching" decision.  Presumably, what made it gut-wrenching wasn't solely the possibility that opposing the war might harm his political career.  I'd like to assume that, when he discussed his view of Saddam, he meant what he said, and that what made the decision gut-wrenching was weighing the desirability of toppling Saddam vs. the costs and risks of the effort to make it happen.

    So, at the time, Obama mustn't have thought the decision to make the effort was idiotic or dishonest.  If it was simply idiotic or dishonest, then the decision to oppose it shouldn't have been gut-wrenching at all, I'd think.  If there were therefore, in his opinion, good if not sufficient reasons to topple Saddam, then in the aftermath, as the costs became more clear, the presumption would still remain that those who supported the effort would begin with at least those gut-wrenchingly good reasons on their side.  To insist that supporters could only be "idiots or liars" would, it seems to me, require one to minimize those good reasons virtually to zero - something you yourself refrain from doing when you confess that the Iraqis are more free than they were under Saddam.

    So, what we know from Obama and yourself is that, as a result of the war, a bad actor who meant us ill has been neutralized (rather definitively), and a people who lived under brutal tyranny now live under much greater freedom with at least the chance to improve their lives even more.  In that formulation, the second result is at most an indirect or moral benefit for the US - I believe that it has high practical significance as well.  

    As a supporter of the war, I can certainly acknowledge at least the possibility that the costs of the war may have outweighed those two benefits, but anybody who thinks taking the latter significantly into account is indisputably either idiotic or dishonest is in my opinion being either idiotic or dishonest.  

    Parent

    Did you get it straight? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:57:03 PM EST
    Comment on what I write, not on my civility or moderation.

    Please acknowledge you understand the rule. IF you do not, you will be banned from my threads.


    Parent

    Well, I asked for clarification... (none / 0) (#96)
    by CK MacLeod on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:48:56 PM EST
    My understanding at this point is that the rule is that it's OK to call "what you write" anything I want to call it - idiotic, dishonest, un-civil, neocon even!, whatever - just as long I'm not referring to or would appear to be referring to or making some kind of overall characterization of you yourself as a person or moderator.  Regardless of whether or not you have called or appear to have called me or anyone else an idiot or a liar, or have implied that I am have acted as an un-civil troll, for me to call or appear to call you yourself or your enforcement of this rule idiotic, dishonest, or un-civil, etc., would be streng verboten.  Am I missing anything?

    Parent
    Yes (1.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:59:13 PM EST
    The rest of my threads. I do not like sophistry and pedants.

    You are banned from my threads.

    Comment no further.

    Parent

    Culture counts! (none / 0) (#45)
    by psychodrew on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:06:22 PM EST
    What people fail to remember is that culture plays an important role in how countries develop politically and economically.  In Asian culture, the goals of the collective are seen as more important than the those of the individual.  In the more individualistic west, we would say that it is wrong for the government to violate the rights of individuals to increase the security of the country.  In highly collectivist parts of Asia (and China is highly collectivist--more so than Japan), the people might have a different attitude.

    I am skeptical of these arguments (none / 0) (#53)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:10:53 PM EST
    mostly because they smell vaguely racist to me.

    Parent
    I like the post BTD, (none / 0) (#87)
    by Walter in Denver on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:20:48 PM EST
    but it isn't a case of capitalism vs human rights. It might be a case of business interests vs human rights, but that's another thing entirely.

     Capitalism, meaning free trade, is a human right.

    Did not just 'happen' (none / 0) (#90)
    by DaleA on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:34:13 PM EST
    The connection between human freedom and capitalism did not just happen; it is a deliberately constructed intellectual argument. In the postwar world, the stream of thoughts began with F A von Hayek's influential work The Road to Serfdom. Hayek was an Austrian economist who had fled the Nazis. His argument was that the rise of the welfare state in 19th century Germany was the root cause of the Nazi movement. Fellow Austrian economist Ludwig von Mises made the argument in Liberalismus and Human Action. Milton Friedman carried the argument on with Capitalism and Freedom in the early 60's.

    Following in this train of thought were the Libertarians who began to emerge at the same time. So, we are looking at an argument with a pedigree and a rationale. The failure of New Deal liberals to face this critique has put us in our present condition.

    Just wondering... (none / 0) (#99)
    by CK MacLeod on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:52:43 PM EST
    Maybe you start by asking some of the one million people who have died as a result of the war if they agree.

    Where do all of you who like to play with the big round number get it from?  Some re-extrapolation of the Lancet/John Hopkins "study"?  

    So, cut that number in half (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:21:53 PM EST
    Is that any better?

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    It's easy to bandy numbers about... (none / 0) (#108)
    by CK MacLeod on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:33:16 PM EST
    ...before the war, we were solemnly informed, for instance, that 100s of thousands of Iraqi children were being killed by the sanctions that most war opponents imagined being perpetuated indefinitely into the future.  The direct victims of Saddam's wars - in particular the Iran-Iraq war, the suppression of the Shia and Kurdish rebellions, and the genocide against the Marsh Arabs - were totaled in the millions.  That's without counting direct victims of state terror, and it obviously also doesn't count the victims of future wars of aggression or succession that, as a result of Saddam's having been toppled, will never take place.  

    I see no good reason to cut the number in half, or for that matter to draw and quarter it, or reduce it by an order of magnitude.  I frankly don't see much reason to take it seriously at all.  

    Parent

    whatever helps you sleep at night (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:43:38 PM EST
    1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have died (none / 0) (#104)
    by Andreas on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:03:51 PM EST
    Further survey work undertaken by ORB, in association with its research partner IIACSS, confirms our earlier estimate that over 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have died as a result of the conflict which started in 2003.

    January 2008 - Update on Iraqi Casualty Data

    Opinion Research Business publishes a list of clients.

    Parent

    Thanks much for the link... (none / 0) (#107)
    by CK MacLeod on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:24:08 PM EST
    It appears then that the source for the figure is a small British market research firm using a method similar to, but even less well-founded, than the one used in the more widely discussed Lancet/Johns Hopkins study.  Presumably, the same criticisms and questions would apply even more strongly.  Some day I'll look into it some more.

    In my opinion, it's disingenuous to refer to such an estimate as though it's a "known fact."  If your objective is to dramatize your own outrage, I can understand the impulse, but the vast majority of people who aren't already convinced of your position will treat anything else you have to say on the subject with greater skepticism.  The big round number already sets the BS detector needles quivering.

    Parent

    Johns Hopkins study (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Andreas on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:42:21 PM EST