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Late Night: Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?

As we await Sen. Obama's choice of a running mate, I'm humming the Shirelles and "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?"

This is an open thread.

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    Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Steve M on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 12:48:10 AM EST
    Big story from Detroit about an overturned rape conviction against a local teacher.  Really interesting case, you've probably heard of it before.  Good subject for discussion here at TL.

    Is anyone here familiar with all this stuff (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 12:58:57 AM EST
    concerning Obama and the Annenberg Challenge?  I'll admit I've seen the name once or twice recently but I didn't know what it was until a story hit the Real Clear Politics website tonight.  

    Anyone care to comment on this?  I've only read the one story linked to the RCP site.  

    I wrote a long post about it months ago (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:04:45 AM EST
    here after spending hours researching it. And we are not going to smear Obama with it here. It's an attempt by the right wing to trash him over his association with Bill Ayers.

    You can discuss it, but you cannot personally attack or insult Obama or Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers has done a lot of good work in the field of education and we don't allow personal insults or character attacks here.

    Parent

    Well, your post is interesting (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:20:42 AM EST
    because you wrote it back in April.  I'm wondering why the article linked to RCP says that the records of that program are not available to the public since it was a publicly funded program.  

    Were these records available to the public up until a certain point in time and then withdrawn?  Do you think any of the MSM will challenge this with an FOI lawsuit if they are not available?  

    And, last question, does anyone really care?  (Although, if Obama really "was in charge," I think it would be of interest because it would show "executive leadership," something he seems to lack on his resume.)

    On second thought, that last question is kind of important since the lack of leadership experience is one of the reasons I, and others like me, don't want to vote for him.  
       

    Parent

    I always wondered why they underplayed.... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:16:17 AM EST
    ...that part of his resume. To me, as someone who is professionally involved in education, that was always one of the most impressive parts of his resume. I guess it was fear of the Ayers connection. It's one thing to defend him in Chicago, but yes the Republicans would make hay of it.

    Parent
    You know (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by Steve M on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:13:19 AM EST
    I don't think any less of Obama for his mild "association" with Ayers, but anyone who was involved in stuff that serious and has no regrets today is not a good member of society, no matter how many old ladies they help across the street.

    Sure it was 40 years ago, but that's why you're supposed to say "I did some foolish stuff 40 years ago."  To have no regrets is just mind-boggling.

    Parent

    Considering how many people... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by EL seattle on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:46:03 AM EST
    ... Obama has been pressured into "throwing under the bus", I'm surprised that Ayers, with his (seemingly) smug unrepentance that seems to glow like a neon "Kick Me!" sign, hasn't either been publicly disassociated from Obama's campaign or been the subject of a very public "setting the record straight" event.

    Parent
    I think it doesn't even do (5.00 / 6) (#110)
    by frankly0 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:43:17 AM EST
    justice to the real problem of what Ayers represents to say that he's like someone who does something terrible, but still also "helps little ladies" across the street, which, however, hardly compensates for the bad things he has done.

    The real problem is how the bad things are bound up with the good things; they are not accidentally related.

    Relatively little of the most destructive behavior that human societies suffer come from complete sociopaths who simply engage with relish in evil behavior. The vast majority comes from fanatics of some ideology or another who are absolutely convinced they are doing good.

    It is hardly surprising that such people might perform "good" works that one can point to -- provided that those "good" works fall under a rubric that their ideology supports. Such works provide a justification, at least to themselves, of the goodness of all the other things, including most certainly the terrible ones, which they have done.

    While I hate to bring up the Nazis as an example, they certainly make the case. They were often, maybe typically, very good to their families, and to other Nazis. They justified their treatment of undesirables because of they believed so strongly in the "goodness" of other things, including the "Aryan" race.

    This is why I have a huge problem with the concept that the good works Ayers has done somehow makes up for the awful things he did, when it is combined with his utter lack of repentance.

    Religious persecutions, Communist persecutions, Nazi persecutions, and all the atrocities in which they were involved were chiefly conducted by people who sincerely believed they were doing good -- and who in other instances did indeed do good works.

    They are to be feared and condemned, not to be admired.

    Parent

    And - heaven forfend - he hasn't apologized!! (5.00 / 6) (#121)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:58:27 AM EST
    Don't you find it funny, in this context, that the liberal blogs' justification for the vilification of Hillary was her lack of apology for the 'war vote' and their related rationalizations for not equally vilifying Edwards was his 'apology' for his 'war vote'?

    Whereas, the lack of remorse from Ayers is fine - his previous acts are automatically forgiven by his subsequent good deeds. Or something.

    Parent

    What would I expect? (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Fabian on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:29:39 AM EST
    Perhaps something like:

    I know what I thought I was doing back then.  I was fighting the good fight and striking against the oppressors in my mind.  I thought violence could be used constructively.  I was so simple and naive then.  I've learned much since then.  I was that person once, but I'm not that person anymore.

    Most of us were young and dumb once.  I just hope that most of us end up older and smarter.

    Parent

    you are at one of four (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:16:15 AM EST
    comments that will be allowed disparaging Mr. Ayers. It's chattering since this site supports the work he has done.

    Parent
    Aw! (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Steve M on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:26:42 AM EST
    Wouldn't it technically not be chattering until I actually do it more than once? :)

    Parent
    just a little (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:46:44 AM EST
    advance warning. :)

    Fwiw, my position is not based on politics or Obama, but on Ayers' support of goals that this site supports. The same way I would limit someone who argued for the death penalty or in favor of increased jail sentences, I'm limiting the number of times people can argue he should be judged by his Weatherman days. We are all greater than the sum of our misdeeds...that's a prinicpal tenet of this site.

    So you can disagree but no more than 4 times, and you have to disagree politely, without insults, character attacks or name-calling.

    Parent

    You know (5.00 / 7) (#45)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:03:17 AM EST
    really the crux of the matter here is that Ayers doesn't agree with anyone that it's the worst thing he's ever done.

    without bashing.  without calling people names.  that's a point of some contention.

    anyone who says "don't judge someone only by their misdeeds" is missing the point that the person in question doesn't think he's guilty of any misdeeds.


    Parent

    Can you list for me (none / 0) (#120)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:57:11 AM EST
    the misdeeds you are referring to?

    What did he actually do?  From what I've read the worst thing he did was blow up a statue.  

    Parent

    you poor thing n/t (none / 0) (#127)
    by angie on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:01:11 AM EST
    huh? (none / 0) (#130)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:02:49 AM EST
    What are you talking about?  

    Parent
    your logic. n/t (none / 0) (#178)
    by angie on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:23:30 AM EST
    Oh you were chattering (none / 0) (#181)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:54:38 AM EST
    No problem.  Chatter away.

    Parent
    you see (none / 0) (#161)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:39:24 AM EST
    here's the problem.

    why do you only ask me that question??  there's a group of people who believe he committed misdeeds and argue that we should not be as judgmental about those misdeeds because of the good things he's also done.  if you really do believe he's done nothing wrong, why don't you ask jeralyn what misdeeds she's referring too in comment number 33 too????

    comment number 33

    the point here is that a person should first decide the question you propose, and then move on from there.  it's clear your view is a minority opinion but no less valid because of that.


    Parent

    You know, being honest, (none / 0) (#48)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:05:40 AM EST
    unless they are putting up his "WANTED" posters in the Post Office, who are we to judge?  If the government says the guy is okay, then I guess he's okay.  

    In other words, the USA has no reason to arrest him.  They know who he is, they know how to find him, and yet they let him walk around free.  So?    

       

    Parent

    He got off on a technicality (5.00 / 9) (#61)
    by Cream City on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:42:52 AM EST
    owing to over-ambitious governmental prosecution.

    That's good, in terms of process.  The government does not get to cut corners to corner us.

    But that only absolves Ayers in the court of law.  The court of public opinion is different -- and that is the jury that will be voting on Obama, too.

    Parent

    No, he wasn't. (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:22:58 AM EST
    WJC pardoned another WU member, Susan Rosenberg, after she had served 16 years. She had been convicted on weapons possession but no bombings.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#117)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:53:50 AM EST
    I don't really know what exactly Ayers did with the WU.  But it would seem that it wasn't too much since the government doesn't seem all that interested in putting him in jail.

    Seems like the guy really cares about some worthwhile issues these days, though.

    Parent

    They also let George Bush run around free (none / 0) (#165)
    by cawaltz on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:45:22 AM EST
    That doesn't necessarily make him okay and it shouldn't be a basis for an opinion on Ayers.

    Parent
    The issue isn't Ayers it's (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by Redshoes on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:00:18 AM EST
    the failure of the Obama campaign to get ahead of this issue.  Just as with the remarks of Reverend Wright (a former US Marine -- who I suspect loves America just fine) the Ayers association plays right into the Republicans attack that Obama isn't like us. His friends don't like America.  Whatever else one may think of McCain, you know he loves this country.  And whatever else you may think of the Republican machine you know they will do whatever it takes to win.

    The problem for most progressives I know is that means not just ends matter and just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

    The folks I know (many who happen to have served in the military)  support the right but not the act.  And Democrats have consistently defended the 1st amendment and fought to protect free speech -- including the right to trample the flag -- but that doesn't mean they like it when someone does it.  That visual alone will be played and replayed throughout the Fall and I still haven't seen anything from the Obama campaign to counteract the image or the impression that he's anything other than a detached observer.

    Challenging his love of country that's pure Rove, it's viseral, intangible and very damaging.  And the Ayers Annenberg story hasn't even gotten started.

    Parent

    For me it is neither Ayers nor (none / 0) (#163)
    by Jjc2008 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:43:53 AM EST
    his past, but the holier-than-thou sanctimony of SOME in the Obama campaign; the ones who screamed bloody murder on the blogs because Hillary Clinton sat and had lunch with Murdoch or Scaife and just recently wrote long commentary of how smart it was for Obama to meet with T Boone Pickens.

    Some of the same people trashing Hillary for not becoming a democrat until well into college will have no problem with anything in anyone else's past.
    Go figure.

    Parent

    I know McCain loves his vision of this country (none / 0) (#179)
    by akaEloise on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:29:40 AM EST
    But I don't think that he loves the real thing in all of its glorious, messy, contradictory diversity.  I think he loves the idea of a 1950's happy and prosperous America -- which was not truly happy and prosperous even then, particularly for black people, Hispanic people, women, gay and lesbian people, Communists, socialists, Democrats, Unitarians, atheists, freethinkers, intellectuals, and Asian Americans (or gooks as McCain prefers to call them).   If he truly loved America, he would have to truly love Americans -- even the ones who don't look like him or think like him.  

    Parent
    Can we say it once to get it off (none / 0) (#78)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 05:09:13 AM EST
    our chests?  

    Parent
    Ugh (5.00 / 11) (#16)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:19:42 AM EST
    Just for the record, Dalton, were you an adult or near-adult when the Weather Underground people, including Ayers, were active?  I ask because I wonder whether anyone who lived through those times as a thinking person can be so sanguine about it.

    For the record, I was active in the anti-war movement at the time, and the WU were considered then totally out-of-control crazies with no genuine ideological commitment to anything but destruction and nihilism.  They were regarded with horror even by the Maoists.  Quite apart from the immorality of their violence in itself, they also did incalculable damage to the cause.

    Without massive genuine repentance, I would no more have anything to do with William Ayers than I would with Charles Manson.  Last we heard from Ayers on the subject, as far as i know, he was utterly unrepentant.

    Parent

    I must commend you (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:40:43 AM EST
    because you write well for someone so young.  Kudos!  

    I'm so used to seeing "NE14U?" it's a pleasure to read something from someone young who remembers what real words are.  

    Parent

    His father was a wealthy (5.00 / 4) (#98)
    by Xanthe on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:14:06 AM EST
    businessman in Chicago and a Democrat with pull.  To my way of thinking, this is why he got a relatively easy time of it.  

    Is that insulting?  No, it's Chicago politics.

    I am sorry to see his affiliation with Sen. Obama - but Sen. Obama is post VietNam culture and does not carry around with him those scars many of us do.   Unfortunately, I carry around those scars and these new ones - from Iraq - right in the center of my chest.

    Parent

    imus too (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:33:08 AM EST
    actually.

    Parent
    Did you attend a private (none / 0) (#31)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:42:49 AM EST
    high school, or were you home schooled?

    Your maturity resembles that I see in the young people who have been home schooled.

    You will enjoy the convention. When I was in high school, we did mock conventions. Jackie Robinson came to speak on behalf of Nelson Rockefeller as a candidate. I got to shake his hand when he arrived. What an incredible man he was.

    I hope you do some diaries when you get back and share both your experiences and your impressions of some of the incredible people you will get to see and meet.


    Parent

    I abhor the Annenberg funding (5.00 / 11) (#60)
    by Cream City on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:38:57 AM EST
    under Obama of the initial experiment in voucher schools in Milwaukee, and anyone who cares about schools ought to learn about what happened here -- and read up on Obama's interview here in which he talked of wanting to spread the voucher-school concept.

    This isn't just an education issue -- important as that is -- because it's an issue of separation of church and state, too.  This issue alone is enough to keep me from voting for Obama.

    And as for Ayers and Dohrn, I abhor them for their lack of repentance for what they did, too.  I do not understand the leniency toward them here.  I thought that lawyers supported the stance that rehabilitation must be accompanied by repentance.

    Parent

    How can we read about this if there is no access (none / 0) (#63)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:46:34 AM EST
    to the records?  

    This is the part that gets me.  

    If this project was publicly funded, it should be public information.  

    Parent

    The Annenberg Challenge... (none / 0) (#93)
    by p lukasiak on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:57:19 AM EST
    itself was a privately funded initiative that was focussed on public school reform.  So what you are looking at here is private and public funds "intermingling".

    U of Chicago itself received considerable public funding, but is considered a "private" University.

    Parent

    I agree and have (none / 0) (#13)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:15:05 AM EST
    stuck up for Ayers many times on this site. He and his wife Bernadette Dohrn haves contributed a lot to society in the last 20 years, particularly in the fields of education and disadvantaged kids, including juvenile offenders. And, they raised Chesa Boudin, ensuring he maintained a relationsip with his jailed parents. Chese became a Rhodes scholar.

    No Ayers bashing please here. If you agree with the right wing talking points about him, you should discuss it on their sites.

    Parent

    no ones bashing the good work (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:23:55 AM EST
    he has done as far as I can tell.

    Parent
    I don't care about Ayers (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:26:02 AM EST
    but if this project represented "Executive leadership experience" for Obama, I think that is VERY important.  Was Obama really in charge?  

    George Bush was a failure in business and I don't know why anyone expected him to do any better handling this country's finances -- because obviously, he did a really crappy job.  If the USA was a company, he made us bankrupt too -- just like the rest of his companies.  

    Parent

    Part of the reason Romney is (none / 0) (#28)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:36:17 AM EST
    a good VP choice for McCain is because Romney has economic "chops."  He's done a lot of things in the financial/investment realm -- most of it good, from what I can see.  He is NOT George Bush Jr., who was a failure at business.  

    Taking a similar stance with Obama, I'd like to see some "executive leadership experience" and as far as I can tell, there is none.  He's taken a leadership position in his family, though I'll bet you that Michelle would say otherwise.  He was the head of the Harvard law review -- but geez!  That's like a club!  Okay, so you get a grade for it but it's sort of like being the editor on your high school yearbook!  That's college stuff, not real life experience!      

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#44)
    by Steve M on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:02:01 AM EST
    When I was on law review our editor-in-chief worked super hard to get those journals published, not an easy thing to do when you're taking a full load of law school courses at the same time!  She's now a professor at Yale and a voting rights expert.  Amazing person.

    Law is one of the few disciplines, maybe the only one, where the foremost professional journals are edited by students.  But they're real journals that take real work to produce, not just a sort of student project.  I know your comment was meant at least partially tongue in cheek, but I just wanted to get this on the record. :)

    Parent

    Grace, google Steve Diamond - (none / 0) (#142)
    by Xanthe on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:15:59 AM EST
    the Steve Diamond who blogs at Global Labor - there is much background there -  

    Parent
    Oops - I should add that (none / 0) (#155)
    by Xanthe on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:29:56 AM EST
    he is not an Obama person but he's got a lot of writings out there and progressives should know what's being said.  Also - it doesn't hurt to read widely.

    Parent
    The biggest issue on this, (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:55:04 AM EST
    IMO, is the allegation that the Chicago machine is hiding public documents to help out Obama.  See here and here.

    I don't care much about Ayers.  I do care if a publicly-funded library is keeping documents from the public.  Is this allegation true?  Who knows, but it's starting to look bad.  When will politicians learn that a cover-up, or even the allegation of a cover-up, is always worse that what's being hidden?  Obama would be wise to get out in front of this and call for the UIC Library to make all the Annenberg documents available for public inspection.  If he doesn't, this one isn't going away, and will only give wings to those right-wing talking points on Ayers.  

    Parent

    I don't think it it is or will be just the right (5.00 / 7) (#108)
    by Valhalla on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:42:20 AM EST
    wing who finds fault with Ayers as more people come to know about him.  A lot of people won't care what he's done that can be considered good, especially as he does not seem to feel any regrets about WU's activities.

    Very bad deeds are not wiped out by even very good deeds.  There are very properly limits on the State's authority to punish people for their bad deeds, and once someone has, as they say, 'paid their debt to society' they should have their rights as citizens returned to them.  But that does not mean that their acts are erased, and it is a far cry from the assertion that subsequent good deeds erases participation in bomb-setting as advocacy.

    And I would argue that it is also very different thing from discussing issues like the death penalty.  I'm against the death penalty but that doesn't mean I do, or have to, condone the acts that led to a death sentence, no matter how much a person has 'found G*d' or done good works in prison afterwards.

    And I've also always found troubling the fallacy that because a person espouses 'good beliefs' it means that they are a good person, and because they espouse 'bad beliefs' they are a bad person.  Method and execution of one's beliefs matters just as much.  Supporting TL's goals does not automatically make anyone into a good person nor opposing them the reverse.

    You can praise someone's good acts without giving them a pass on their bad acts.  The WU used violence to promote a political agenda.  I don't condone that whether it's Ayers or George W. Bush, no matter what they did subsequently.

    And I don't find the fact that the right-wing will bring this up dispositive either.  This is a very difference circumstance from the people who insist on using Obama's middle name when they talk of him, or try to connect him with Muslims or whatever with his birth certificate.  That is a smear because it's an attempt to condemn someone based on a status, not their acts.  The criticism, and even horror relating to Ayers is about his acts.


    Parent

    Questions: (none / 0) (#62)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:44:09 AM EST
    Was Obama in charge of the whole thing?  

    One of the links in the story I mentioned above said that they had $100 million, not $5 million...???  

    $100 million is a lot of money!  Anyway to know what the real amount of $$$$ was?  

    Parent

    From what I've read, it is not clear (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Cream City on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:54:30 AM EST
    that the donor's wishes are the crux of this.  The school now claims that transmittal of ownership was not done.  The donor's wishes do not enter in if it has not been, as the school now claims, donated.

    If so, the head archivist ought to be fired for only discovering a transmittal problem after access was promised and then suddenly is denied -- and for  discovering it about a collection of more than 100 boxes and after it has been inventoried, so students and others involved have seen these allegedly private records already.  And a few other heads ought to roll in the development office, if it was involved.

    Parent

    Okay, so now I'm confused (none / 0) (#74)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:19:54 AM EST
    I understood that Obama and Ayers served on one board together (Woods) but from what I read tonight, it appeared that Obama was in charge of this Annenburg thing.

    Like most Americans, I need the MSM to come out and explain this all to me...  ;-)

    Parent

    Univ. of Chicago, Michelle, & Axelrod (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Josey on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 06:52:43 AM EST
    Obama Camp Has Many Ties to Wife's Employer

    By Joe Stephens
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Friday, August 22, 2008; A01

    A few years ago, executives at the prestigious University of Chicago Medical Center were concerned that an increasing number of patients were arriving at their emergency room with what the executives considered to be non-urgent complaints. The visits were costly to the hospital, and many of the patients, coming from the surrounding South Side neighborhood, were poor and uninsured.

    Michelle Obama, an executive at the medical center, launched an innovative program to steer the patients to existing neighborhood clinics to deal with their health needs.

    That effort, in time, inspired a broader program the hospital now calls its Urban Health Initiative. To ensure community support, Michelle Obama and others in late 2006 recommended that the hospital hire the firm of David Axelrod, who a few months later became the chief strategist for Barack Obama's presidential campaign.

    Axelrod's firm recommended an aggressive promotional effort modeled on a political campaign -- appoint a campaign manager, conduct focus groups, target messages to specific constituencies, then recruit religious leaders and other third-party "validators." They, in turn, would write and submit opinion pieces to Chicago publications.

    One key recommendation from Axelrod's firm: "Respond quickly to opposition activity."

    Parent

    Obama and boards... (5.00 / 5) (#90)
    by p lukasiak on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:47:07 AM EST
    ...Obama served along with Ayres on the board of the Woods Foundation, and when Ayres was co-founder of the Annenberg Challenge, Obama was appointed to some leadership position in the Challenge (various news accounts describe the position differently).  There are two elements of the controversy....the relationship itself, and the (alleged) cover-up of that relationship.

    1. The extent to which Ayres and Obama collaborated in their efforts during Chicago's "School Wars", and the extent to which Obama funnelled funds to "questionable" projects as part of that effort.

    2. The question of whether Obama has tried to cover up what is suspected by many as a close working relationship with Ayres at the beginning of Obama's political career.

    In the notorious Philadelphia debate, Obama downplayed his relationship with Ayres as "...a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis."  

    Obama is clearly trying to minimize his relationship with Ayres here in a deceptive manner.  Ayres isn't just '...a guy who lives in my neighborhood', he's a major player in education politics in Chicago.  (Nor is Ayres an English Professor -- he's an Education Professor, something that Obama should know, and probably does know, but just got wrong in the midst of the debate.)  

    And while Obama may not have received the "official" endorsement from Ayres this year, his very first fundraiser was held in the Ayres/Dohrn home, and Ayres certainly supported Obama during Obama's State Senate career.

    Ultimately, this all comes down to the question "Who is/was Barack Obama."  The Ayres relationship has no good answer -- was Obama someone who shared Ayres still radical perspectives, or someone who opportunistically used his Ayres connections (the entire Ayres family is huge in Chicago political and philanthropic circles) to advance his political career?

    The whole "library held archive" thing stinks to high heaven, because a great deal of work was done cataloguing the Annenberg Challenge Archives, and it would be extremely unusual for the Library to have provided the staff and resources needed to do the work without an agreement of some kind regarding the use of the collection.  The cataloguing of the files makes it clear that certain files were not to be made available to the public, and other files were available only with "consent", and until now there has been no question of the archives being part of the University's collection.  

     

    Parent

    What Bill Ayres did 40 years ago may or (5.00 / 6) (#139)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:11:26 AM EST
    may not have been offset or balanced by the good works he and his wife have done in the years that followed; that's a judgment each will have to make for him- or herself.  

    What I think bothers people is that Obama seems to have a pattern of ignoring the more disturbing aspects of people's histories because there is some immediate or short-term benefit to him, either personally or professionally.  But, when the long-term consequences ensue, takes a very disingenuous approach to excusing himself: he didn't know, he hadn't heard anything about it, he was "just a guy," he wasn't a friend - or some variation along those lines.  It's like "the dog ate my homework," and it's very hard for people to believe that someone who aspires to the heights Obama sees in his future could be that oblivious, that tone-deaf, could think people are that stupid.

    It's the pattern, and there are more and more people who are a part of that pattern - and - the big question is: what does that mean for the future?  

    I'm not saying McCain comes into this with an unblemished history, and I know of the question marks that have always surrounded the Clintons.  But at some point, I think you have to confront the questions, and do it openly and honestly, and keep the emphasis not on the questionable history of the people with whom Obama has involved himself with, but on the judgment Obama did or did not exercise - that's the issue here for me.  

    This man has been running on his superior judgment for a long time; he beat Hillary over the head with it at every opportunity.  When your judgment is a cornerstone of your campaign, when you have used it to elevate yourself above your opponents, it is eminently fair to fully examine that judgment, and unfortunately, there is no good way to shelter people like Wright and Rezko and Ayres from the concomitant scrutiny.


    Parent

    Oh please (none / 0) (#113)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:47:21 AM EST
    This comes down to an attempt to smear Barack Obama with the activities of William Ayers when Obama was 10 years old.

    The cover-up of a friendship?  My god that is almost as bad as Watergate.

    Glad to see you're still sticking to the guilt by association attacks.  I'm sure you're doing the same with McCain and his dubious relationships, right?

    Parent

    Online reference (none / 0) (#92)
    by ding7777 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:52:05 AM EST
    The Chicago Annenberg Challenge 49.2 million, 2-to-1 matching challenge grant

    Parent
    Dalton I happen to agree with you about Ayers (none / 0) (#86)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:17:41 AM EST
    ...but I think that no part of a potential president's pubic life should remain private.

    Parent
    527 Ads (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by facta non verba on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:02:16 AM EST
    The 527 groups are stepping up their ads.

    Here's a pro-McCain one:

    American Issues Project

    Here's a pro-Obama one:

    Power PAC

    Ouch! (none / 0) (#114)
    by stxabuela on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:49:30 AM EST
    I knew the "Chicago associations" ads were coming.  That one is devastating.  

    Parent
    have a safe trip (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:07:24 AM EST
    are you a delegate? If you see me, be sure to say hello.

    What will you be doing? (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:18:45 AM EST
    Stop by the Big Tent where the bloggers are hanging out. I'll be dividing my time between there, the Pepsi Center, the streets, the protest events, the Hillary events, some parties and CNN's Grill Room.

    Parent
    Ahem. As an older person (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:48:15 AM EST
    suck it in.  See everything you can.  It's material you will draw on (for all sorts of reasons) throughout your life and it's important for people to experience all kinds of things.  Never box yourself in and think "This is really below me" or "This is a lifestyle I can't even aspire to."  Go see it all.  When you are older, you can thank me.  ;-)


    Parent
    Dalton (none / 0) (#36)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:50:30 AM EST
    Please write up at least one diary for us, okay? It's great that you are going to be there. Hope you get to meet up with Jeralyn.

    Parent
    I agree, the more person on the street (none / 0) (#112)
    by Valhalla on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:46:57 AM EST
    perspectives, the better!

    Parent
    Have a super trip! Heck, the enthusiasm and the (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by DeborahNC on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:10:15 AM EST
    excitement of your post make me wish I were going. Kind of... :-)  Have fun!

    I opted for Provincetown (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:10:38 AM EST
    instead of Denver.  My vacation starts this coming Tuesday.  I had plans on going to Denver but since protesters are going to be relegated to 'free speech zones' (biggest oxymoron EVER) and the jails/warehouses look like, what JM calls the "Gitmo of the Rockies",  I will opt for the gay haven of Provincetown, MA with two friends from college.

    Maybe I'll get lucky and get married while I am there.  I think I may need a date first though.  Darn technicalities!

    BTW, great taste in music JM.  I have about 4000 songs on my iPod.  I have XM and find oldies and newies all the time to stock the 'pod!

    Have fun, Tx! (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:21:33 AM EST
    The Cape is just heaven this time of year.

    Parent
    have a great vacation (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:22:20 AM EST
    and send some of those song tips my way from time to time. As you probably can guess, I tend to think in song lyrics half the time. I would probably be a very smart person if half of my brain wasn't occupied by song lyrics.

    Parent
    Sinatra, Ray Charles, Carpenters... (5.00 / 0) (#54)
    by oldpro on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:18:02 AM EST
    Without a song, the day would never end
    Without a song, the road would never have been
    When things go wrong, a man aint got a friend
    Without a song

    That field of corn, would never see a plow
    That field of corn, would be deserted now
    A man is born, but hes no good no how
    Without a song

    Ive got my trouble and woe, but sure as I know
    The jordan will roll
    Ill get along, as long as a song
    Is strung in my soul

    Ill never know, what makes the rain to fall
    Ill never know, what makes the grass so tall
    I only know, there aint no love at all
    Without a song

    Parent

    If he picks HRC for VP (none / 0) (#81)
    by Redshoes on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 06:10:21 AM EST
    Happy Together by Donovan.  Can't just hear his supporters, her supporters ...  :-)

    Parent
    Donovan? (none / 0) (#177)
    by sj on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:23:23 AM EST
    Are you thinking of Happy Together by the Turtles?  I used to sing that song to my son when he was in pre-school and we were walking home at the end of the day.  He was surprised, a couple of years later, to find out it was a "real" song :)

    Parent
    well, PTown sounds cool, too. (none / 0) (#89)
    by kempis on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:23:47 AM EST
    Never been there but one my old friends used to play with the Dyketones, who had a summer gig there back in the 80s.

    Always wanted to go....In fact, I've been thinking lately that it would be nice to be around a whole bunch of gay folks somewhere. I've been in my old lady schoolmarm mode for far too long.

    Parent

    It's not so much Ayers. (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by rghojai on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:28:08 AM EST
    As I recall, Ayers came up in a debate or a reporter's question and Obama's response was, er, something less than comprehensively accurate. Did Obama not say that Ayres is just a guy he knows, their kids go to the same school--when there was a whole lot more to their relationship?

    It sounded a whole lot like how he tried to play it with Rezko and Wright....

    sure (5.00 / 0) (#29)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:38:00 AM EST
    if one supported ayers one might find themselves in the position of being dissapointed in Obama for, instead of speaking out about all the great things ayers has done, distancing himself from ayers thus re-enforcing the conclusion that ayers is a bad person.

    Parent
    Yes, Obama said he hardly knows him (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by Cream City on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:56:30 AM EST
    but Mayor Daley now says that Obama and Ayers are friends.

    We can suspect that access to Daley soon will be denied, too.

    Parent

    We was asked (none / 0) (#109)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:42:43 AM EST
    in the last debate about Ayers and said that he knows Ayers but his association with him doesn't mean he agrees with his politics anymore than his friendship with Tom Coburn makes him a Republican.

    Parent
    Unfortunately (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:45:38 AM EST
    his association with Ayers is much deeper and longer than his association with Coburn. And Coburn was all over the television trashing Obama for that statement.

    Parent
    So what? (none / 0) (#125)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:00:20 AM EST
    Of course Coburn is going to trash the comment.  The last thing in the world he wants is to be compared to Ayers.

    Doesn't make the point any less valid.  

    I have no idea how deep or long his association with Ayers is.  Nor do I care.  

    I don't do the guilt by association smear unless it is someone who has official involvement in the political structure of a politician.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:17:11 AM EST
    Ayers did have a part in Obama's political structure in Chicago.

    I think the point being re Coburn is that is Obama really tone deaf enough to realize that Coburn wouldn't want to be compared and he would be all over the TV trashing Obama for it?

    The Ayers thing largely attacks Obama's judgement. You should be able to see how damaging it is. Obama chose to associate with Ayers. It's not like it's six degrees of Obama or something.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#148)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:20:39 AM EST
    some of you use the judgment argument to rationalize any and all attacks.

    The attacks on Ayers are based on his actions when Obama was in grade school.  

    So explain to me why Obama's judgment is bad because he is associated with Ayers.  Other than the fact that the Right Wing smear machine will attack him, I see no reason why I should care.  

    Parent

    Ayers (none / 0) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:26:01 AM EST
    is an unrepentant terrorist. The things he did in the past matter in the fact that he still thinks bombings were the right thing to do. When Obama chose to have Ayers kick start his political campaign, he was STILL and unrepentant terrorist. He's still an unrepentant terrorist post 9/11. All this is something Obama CHOSE to do and goes directly to his lack of judgement.

    Heck, there are recent pictures of Ayers stomping all over the flag all over the internet. Obama already has a patriotism problem according to the polls. Ayers works because it plays right into the preconceived notions that many voters have.

    Parent

    Unrepetant terrorist? (none / 0) (#169)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:56:02 AM EST
    I know he blew up a statue.  What else did he blow up that warrants calling him a terrorist?

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:07:16 AM EST
    according to your defintion OBL isn't really a terrorist because he didn't actually fly those planes into the twin towers. I think being the leader of the Weather Underground and encouraging terrorist acts that resulted in many things including murders are more than enough to qualify someone as a terrorist.

    Why anyone would ever want to have any association with him is beyond me.

    Parent

    That's A Good Point (none / 0) (#185)
    by daring grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 12:18:39 PM EST
    If you associate--through work, shared goals for the community or some such bond--with someone who is now known for their good work in that area, should you be held responsible for their checkered past that occurred when you were a child living thousands of miles away?

    It's like holding McCain responsible for the excesses of Vietnamese officials during the war, because he later went back and promoted improving U.S. relations with them years later.

    I know, I know. McCain holds a unique position as a former POW to embody American forgiveness or whatever, but if I were the relative of someone killed in Viet Nam or someone still MIA, I'm not sure that would cut it with me. I'll bet many of those Viet Nam leaders don't regret what they did in fighting (and killing) Americans.

    Unfortunately, for Obama the NY Times never asked them the question as they did Ayres.

    Parent

    Ayers is such a controversial figure (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by stxabuela on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:19:44 AM EST
    because of his Weathermen involvement.  I hate to use the cliche, "radioactive," but just being close to him can negatively affect anyone involved in national politics.

    Most of us who are in our 50s and older have a mental picture of the Weathermen as a violent fringe group.  Even most of us who were fervently opposed to the war disagreed with the actions of the Weather Underground and thought the movement was extremely detrimental to all the other anti-war groups.  It was radioactive way back then--iirc, because of the bombings, all the anti-war groups were characterized as a bunch of radical anarchists or Communists (it was worse to be a Communist than an anarchist back in the Cold War days.)  

    Maybe it won't have much traction for anyone born after 1955, but a lot of us old folks are already cringing.      

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#149)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:22:27 AM EST
    But it seems like a huge leap to assign Obama, Ayers' beliefs from 40 years ago.  

    Parent
    I don't (none / 0) (#156)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:30:01 AM EST
    think anyone is assigning those beliefs to Obama but since he hasn't made it clear where he stands on a lot of things many voters will believe it. Also, him lying about Ayers during the debate on ABC was not helpful to himself.

    The question is: Why would you chose to associate with someone like Ayers? Do you hold those beliefs? Do you not have a problem with what he says or has done? Lots of why questions are raised.

    Parent

    Ridiculous questions (none / 0) (#171)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:58:17 AM EST
    Do you hold the beliefs of all of your associates?

    How did he lie in the ABC interview?  You sure seem to know an awful lot about Obama's relationship with Ayers.  Perhaps you could enlighten us on the details.

    Parent

    When (none / 0) (#175)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:09:45 AM EST
    you are an undefined and unknown quantity, yes people do judge you by the associates you keep.

    Obama lied about Ayers being an English professor and "just someone who lives in his neighborhood." That isn't true. Obama served on boards with him and Ayers held a political fundraiser for him. Obama knows very well that Ayers is an Education professor due to them working together on the Annenberg Challenge.

    Parent

    Ok I'll bite (none / 0) (#180)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:53:56 AM EST
    So why did Obama "lie" about Ayers being an English professor?  What was the sinister plot behind that?

    Whether there is more to their relationship or not is not contradicted by his comments in that debate.

    Parent

    I don't know (none / 0) (#182)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 11:03:40 AM EST
    why he lied but my guess would be that he knows his association with Ayers is political suicide. However, he was stupid to think that the truth wouldn't come out. The GOP 527's have already started with this issue. Watch for the continual drop in poll numbers.

    Parent
    Shakesville (5.00 / 11) (#35)
    by eleanora on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:48:28 AM EST
    has a great post up on the new HHS rule change "...which which would redefine birth control as abortion and pose a signficant threat to women's healthcare..." Senators Patty Murray and Hillary Rodham Clinton are fighting hard against it, but apparently the other Dems are AWOL, and Leavitt won't even respond.

    And ITA with Melissa that I'm sick of hearing so-called progressives piously citing Roe to win my vote without doing one blessed thing to actually protect women's rights to control their own bodies themselves.

    There are many who would love that (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:00:13 AM EST
    I went to high school with Patty Murray. She's not a powerhouse, but she certainly knows how to stand her ground. I am generally confident she will get what she's after.

    These are the things we need Hillary working on, not second place on this year's ticket.


    Parent

    That's so cool! (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by eleanora on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:05:37 AM EST
    Senator Murray's been great on women's issues. She and Hillary got the FDA to offer Plan B over-the-counter by patiently, relentlessly following the agency's rules until they won. I wish we had a dozen more of each of them.

    Parent
    PS: Hillary's petition (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by eleanora on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:00:19 AM EST
    HRC has a petition up about this at her website if you'd like to sign. And the ACLU press release is pretty alarming:

    "We continue to be very concerned about the scope and impact of this proposed rule.  It leaves open the possibility that institutions and individuals can deny access to birth control and permits individuals to refuse to provide even counseling about basic heath care services."


    Parent
    Done (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:14:35 AM EST
    and, forwarded link to everyone in my address book.


    Parent
    It just gets weirder (none / 0) (#52)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:16:02 AM EST
    How will HHS deal with the question of condoms, which are used as both a birth control method AND a deterrent to AIDS and other STDs?

    Will the CDC have to take HHS to federal court?

    How I wish Barbara Bush had opted for birth control just one fateful night out of her entire life.  

    Parent

    You know if someone (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 05:14:53 AM EST
    would have posted the same here say, about Rose Kennedy on the night Ted was conceived, there would be calls for banning from here.

    Parent
    Oh man, (none / 0) (#55)
    by eleanora on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:24:09 AM EST
    I hadn't thought about condoms yet. And the ACLU's point about counseling is creepy too--are we just going to let teenagers wonder what kind of birth control is out there? Abstinence "education" plus no counseling from doctors is going to result in a lot of pregnancies :(

    Parent
    The proposed rule (none / 0) (#59)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:34:06 AM EST
    is dangerous and dumb on so many levels it's hard to believe it wouldn't be challenged by every health care agency in the U.S.

    Now if only we could get some of those so-called Democrats in Congress to care.

    My suspicious side believes this is all a trial balloon because it is so outlandish and is occurring right in the heat of election season.

    Parent

    This follows with the Catholic church's opinion: (none / 0) (#58)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:29:50 AM EST
    Birth control is abortion. That's why it's very hard to dance around the issue (like Obama was trying to) because staunch Catholics believe that anything that stops the sperm from fertilizing the egg is abortion.  

    For years, the Catholic church would only allow the "rhythm method."  Condoms were not allowed.  They finally allowed condoms because of the AIDS crisis in Africa.  

    Parent

    I don't think that's quite right (none / 0) (#118)
    by Valhalla on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:54:03 AM EST
    The Catholic Church opposes both abortion and birth control, but that doesn't mean they equate them.  Birth control is equally sinful (or almost) but for different reasons.  Birth control prevents procreation while abortion kills what in their definition is life equivalent to an infant (since it gets a soul at conception).

    Parent
    She's been working hard lately - (none / 0) (#126)
    by Xanthe on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:01:02 AM EST
      we need her in the senate more than on the campaign trail now.

    Parent
    How kind (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:52:13 AM EST
    For those who may not still be on Hillary's email list, the following message was sent out late tonight. Such a genuinely nice woman Hillary is, today must have been such a difficult one for her to get through.

    Dear xxxx,

    Yesterday, we lost a colleague, a friend, an inspiration, and a champion for all of us. I am deeply saddened by the death of Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs Jones. She was my friend and my sister. She made me laugh, smile and fired up my spirit when I needed it most.

    She had a light that shone for the world to see within her and a fighting spirit safely stowed behind her disarming smile. Stephanie had so much integrity and a fiery intelligence that enabled her to become a one-woman force for progress in our country.

    Stephanie was a tireless worker, giving a voice to the voiceless and always combating injustice. Stephanie spent much of her life fighting for all Americans and to ensure that everyone had the most precious right - the right to vote.

    All of us who were lucky enough to know her and love her can only strive to be as much like her as we can -- to be as passionate, as loyal, as hard-charging, and as joyful every single day.

    Stephanie was one of a kind, and we will miss our friend forever.

    My family's deepest condolences are with Stephanie's son, Mervyn, her family, and her many loved ones, friends, supporters, and her beloved Ohioans. It is during this tough time that we look back and remember all the memories and blessings that Stephanie brought into our lives. If you have a thought, a story, a prayer, or condolences you would like to share, you can visit our website today so we can rejoice together in the friendship and love that we have for Stephanie. All the notes and memories we gather will be sent to her family on behalf of our extended family.

    Send in your thoughts and memories about Stephanie.

    Thank you,

    Hillary



    Well this is interesting (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:58:20 AM EST
    link

    Fifty percent of conservatives think churches and other places of worship should stay out of social and political matters, up from 30 percent four years ago, according to a survey released Thursday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life and the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press


    I laughed at that (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Steve M on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:04:04 AM EST
    it would be ironic if we ran a candidate who wants to be the Democrat who puts God into politics, at the exact same time the public decides they don't want God in politics.

    Oh well.  I assume God will get his way regardless.

    Parent

    A Republican megachurch pastor (5.00 / 9) (#53)
    by eleanora on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:17:25 AM EST
    is giving the closing prayer at the Democratic Convention this year.
    "Hunter is a registered Republican, opposes abortion and, at one point, had been chosen to lead the Christian Coalition. He has not endorsed Obama and says he agreed to give the benediction because he was asked to do so.
    I've just about given up on understanding what we're doing anymore.

    Parent
    Couldn't they find a freakin' (5.00 / 5) (#73)
    by nycstray on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:13:55 AM EST
    Pastor who's a Democrat?! Logic says if you want to attract Christians to the party, you might want to show Christian Democrats instead of Republican ones.

    Parent
    Reverend Wright (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:28:56 AM EST
    was all lined up to go -- but they couldn't find him under the bus.  

    Parent
    Their choice for the first night prayer was... (none / 0) (#159)
    by EL seattle on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:32:25 AM EST
    ... also a Republican, but he backed out according to this.

    Parent
    I understand it -- (4.83 / 6) (#67)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:53:59 AM EST
    these are not my mother's Democrats, and they are not mine.  Ugh.  Why doesn't Obama come out against the ridiculous new proposed HHS rule discussed above, instead of constantly pandering to anti-choice forces?  

    Parent
    Well, word has it (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:00:28 AM EST
    that he signed the letter Clinton and Murray wrote. Let's give him a break. This leadership thing is really hard work.

    /snark.

    Parent

    Look at all the leadership that has been offered (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:26:44 AM EST
    in announcing the VP candidate:  .......

    (Frankly, they have said so many things, it's embarrassing to claim them as Democrats, so I won't write them all down.)  

    Leadership?  Leadership?  Anyone up for a game of "Hide N' Seek?"  

    "Leadership is but a word.  What we offer is much more fun," Obama campaign spokesperson.  

    Parent

    FOX news discussing (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 04:37:26 AM EST
    McCain humor versus Obama humor -- and the people outside of the campaign that are developing it.  

    I have to be honest.  I hate the MSM because, during the Clinton Impeachment, my friend, Elaine (who is a Salon poster) and I, used to host the Breakfast Club on the NYT where we did nothing but toss out jokes about the Impeachment.  Those same jokes used to end up on the nightly entertainment shows -- and I got kind of bummed out about that because they stole our jokes!!  Granted, you don't get credit for jokes posted on the internet -- but still!!  Those were our jokes!!  :)

    Anyway, McCain versus Obama on jokes -- well, I can see the humor both ways.  The jokes are out there!  

    OT (none / 0) (#106)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:36:43 AM EST
    You used to post at Salon TableTalk?  I used to love that place.

    There were so many really brilliant posters there.

    Parent

    Unfortunately (none / 0) (#170)
    by echinopsia on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:57:49 AM EST
    Salon TT became as rabidly anti-Clinton during the primary as Kos or Americablog, so quite a few of the brilliant TT posters left. Several more are not planning on renewing their memberships.

    But fortunately, quite a few are here.

    Parent

    No, we used to post on the (none / 0) (#187)
    by Grace on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:31:38 PM EST
    NYT back when they had forums.  We posted on the "Clinton Impeachment" forum.  

    Parent
    Harvard (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by lentinel on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 05:30:06 AM EST
    Harvard will always be on my sh-t list because we have its' best and brightest to thank for the Vietnam war.

    Hillary supporters have speculated (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Josey on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 06:31:59 AM EST
    that no matter how much or how vigorously Hillary promotes Obama, it won't be sufficient for the media and Obamabots.
    And so, the narrative begins...

    NYT
    http://tinyurl.com/6pd77k


    I agree- they are setting her up (5.00 / 5) (#99)
    by kenosharick on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:15:20 AM EST
    to take the fall if he loses. ALL HER FAULT!!!
    I have even heard callers on C-SPAN ranting about how she is "actively undermining the Obama campaign." How do you argue with people who are so obviously demented in their thinking?

    Parent
    Well this Obama supporter (none / 0) (#105)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:35:31 AM EST
    will most certainly not blame Hillary if Obama loses.  Obama is responsible for his campaign and unless Hillary openly campaigns AGAINST him, I can't blame her for the actions of some of her followers.

    Not that I think there is a chance that he will lose.

    Parent

    oh (none / 0) (#147)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:20:23 AM EST
    it began the day she suspended.

    Parent
    Oh, so that's what that was. (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by lilburro on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:50:42 AM EST
    I thought I heard the sound of a million 16 year olds and their parents stampeding to the Barnes and Noble this morning.

    Who can afford those schools? (none / 0) (#94)
    by ding7777 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:58:45 AM EST
    Tuition alone is around $35,000-to-38,000 per term

    Parent
    Yes, but.... (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:07:04 AM EST
    Something interesting is happening at Harvard in that regard - they are under legal pressure to spend down their enormous endowment and to direct it towards helping students afford tuition there. They are currently offering FREE tuition to students from families making 60K or less. And for families making between 60K and 125K, tuition is 10% of income, which is not much more than a good state school. A few other 'rich' schools that have accumulated vast endowments are also doing this right now - Yale for example. I had heard about this last year, and then a few weeks ago, my son got a recruitment letter from Harvard with an enclosure explaining all these new financial incentives. They congratulated him for his perfect ACT score (yes, I'm shamelessly bragging), and asked him to apply.

    We have very mixed feelings about him going somewhere like that (snootiness, very competitive environment, etc.) but it sure is seductive when they are offering tuition costs at state school levels. We'll see...

    Parent

    The new (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by lilburro on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:18:07 AM EST
    financial ad policies in many of the loaded Ivy League colleges have put a lot of pressure on smaller liberal arts schools as well, schools that cannot afford to give that level of aid.

    I think the enormous cost of college has put a stink in many ways through the whole kit and kaboodle.  So many can't afford to go; so many have so much pressure while in college that it isn't about learning, but putting up grades; and the teaching has become more timid because logically enough, students and parents treat college education as a product they purchased.  If the student is not doing well, surely it is not the student's fault...I saw all these problems firsthand when I was still in college two years ago.  The environment reeks of entitlement, although they do their best to make it difficult for you to understand the disadvantages of entitlement.

    We cannot rely upon our schools to make college more affordable, so I'm looking forward to the changes that will be made by Obama to make the college process better.

    Parent

    Lots of the Ivies (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Coral on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:08:04 AM EST
    and elite liberal arts colleges have increased tuition scholarships and eliminated loans for students whose parents earn $60,000 or less.

    Also the Democratic Congress did increase Pell grants and other grants to low and moderate income students.

    Both of these changes have greatly helped our daughter now going into her senior year. I just wish they'd been instituted earlier, as she still will have hefty loans to pay off from previous years.

    Parent

    Largely agree (none / 0) (#104)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:25:45 AM EST
    If it were up to me, my kid would go to a nice, progressive, liberal arts college (e.g., Macalester, Middlebury, Bowdoin, etc.) with a good social environment and professors who care more about teaching and mentoring kids than doing top-tier research (not that the latter is a bad thing). But those places are often just as expensive as the Ivy Leagues with not much financial aid. He'll probably end up at a decent state school, which is just fine by me.

    But it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years at places like Harvard with these new financial incentives.

    Parent

    My alma mater (not Harvard but one of the (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Valhalla on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:01:21 AM EST
    rich ones) has done that for a long time.  When I applied they're promise was, if you can get in, they'd make sure you could go.  Certainly true in my case, and they've expanded their financial aid since.  I don't know about Harvard, but a lot of schools were moving in this direction before all the public pressure.

    Parent
    Good, then there's some hope... (none / 0) (#133)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:07:56 AM EST
    Cuz he'll surely get in to lots of great places, but the deciding factor will definitely be what we can afford, which is not a lot.

    Parent
    If there's someplace he really wants to go (none / 0) (#186)
    by Valhalla on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:56:56 PM EST
    and the money doesn't look all that great, call the Admissions Office.  I had a friend who worked in Admissions/Financial Aid and often they can help.

    Parent
    my hope for Hillary is gone (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:57:08 AM EST
    as is any hope for a President Obama.
    I think it will be Kaine.  and he will lose because of it.

    Be fair (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by angie on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:59:32 AM EST
    Picking Kaine will not be the only reason Obama loses.

    Parent
    60% (none / 0) (#124)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:00:16 AM EST
    I'm starting to think BTD is right - Biden (none / 0) (#129)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:02:08 AM EST
    This morning on CNN they showed Obama answering questions and he added 'foreign policy experience' to the list of his previous criteria - economic chops, independent thinker, etc.

    Parent
    I saw that too (none / 0) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:06:04 AM EST
    could be right.
    I think Biden would be a better pick than Kaine as far as my personal preferences go.
    but still a loser.  maybe even more so.
    I dont think that use of Kaine in the ad was accidental.  some people have know for a while. its interesting to speculate about moles in the Obama campaign.
    after all the Obama campaign apparently had a mole in the Hillary campaign.


    Parent
    Romney as VP candidate for McCain (none / 0) (#141)
    by Politalkix on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:14:39 AM EST
    will be an energetic political attack monster. Probably the Obama campaign feels that they need Biden to counter with funny quips. It will really be funny when McCain the guy with 7 houses picks Romney the billionaire to drive home the "out of touch" narrative about McCain.

    Parent
    I dont think it will be Romney (none / 0) (#145)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:19:35 AM EST
    I just cant see it.  partly for the reason you mention.  but others as well.

    Parent
    as far as the title of the post . . . (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:10:06 AM EST
    for me it should be
    Will You At Least Find Me Acceptable Tomorrow

    doesnt roll off the tongue in quite the same way.


    how about some Lenonard Cohen (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:24:09 AM EST
    my personaly depression mental balm:

    It's coming through a hole in the air,
    from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
    It's coming from the feel
    that this ain't exactly real,
    or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
    From the wars against disorder,
    from the sirens night and day,
    from the fires of the homeless,
    from the ashes of the gay:
    Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

    Sail on, sail on
    O mighty Ship of State!
    To the Shores of Need
    Past the Reefs of Greed
    Through the Squalls of Hate
    Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

    I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
    I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
    And I'm neither left or right
    I'm just staying home tonight,
    getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
    But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
    that Time cannot decay,
    I'm junk but I'm still holding up
    this little wild bouquet:
    Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.


    this verse could also be relevant (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:34:55 AM EST
    It's coming from the women and the men.
    O baby, we'll be making love again.
    We'll be going down so deep
    the river's going to weep,
    and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
    It's coming like the tidal flood
    beneath the lunar sway,
    imperial, mysterious,
    in amorous array:
    Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

    Leonard is my hero


    It's all good with L Cohen. (none / 0) (#164)
    by Fabian on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:44:28 AM EST
    He da man!

    (Then there is "Last Year's Man"...)

    Parent

    Have fun! (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:07:43 AM EST
    Oh, and watch the hors d'oeuvres, they can add up.

    My flight leaves (none / 0) (#26)
    by Little Fish on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 01:32:34 AM EST
    tomorrow at 8:17am pacific. I expect the VP announcement at 8:18 sharp. :)

    I'm trying to convert videos right now. My computer + the media devices are doing their best to tick me off. Yay technology!

    Wow. Weird news on the wire (none / 0) (#57)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:28:31 AM EST
    A bomb was found at a coal power plant in Centralia, WA.

    It will be interesting to find out... (none / 0) (#66)
    by EL seattle on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:50:16 AM EST
    ... the details.  It was apparently "near" the plant, next to the railroad tracks.

    Not quite as scary as that cyanide report from Denver, but it sure doesn't sound good.

    It doesn't take much to do a lot of damage these days if you really want to.

    Parent

    Yes, near the tracks (none / 0) (#70)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 02:57:08 AM EST
    that transport the coal to the plant. I should have been more accurate. Still, if it had gone off -- could have been a major coal fire... I'll bet repsonsibility lies with a lone, disgruntled wacko. Hey, maybe it's the same wacko who is killing the trees with poison injections along the Burke-Gilman Trail.

    Parent
    Or torching the "Green Mansions"... (none / 0) (#72)
    by EL seattle on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:13:24 AM EST
    ... on a Street of Dreams in Woodinsville a few months ago?  Maybe it's one of the many groups that has the word "Liberation" somewhere in their name.  Ah, life in the long shadow of Twin Peaks.

    Parent
    VP text messages (none / 0) (#87)
    by cmugirl on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:18:41 AM EST
    Apparently there have been many hoaxes played on people regarding Obama's VP through text messages, that some people aren't going to believe it when they get the real one.

    Link

    safe flight and (none / 0) (#88)
    by kempis on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:21:40 AM EST
    this old "Alabama kid" is happy for you.

    :)

    And safe travels to all who are heading there--except Jeralyn who, like Mohammed, is having the mountain come to her.

    :)

    So sez Kevin Drum (none / 0) (#95)
    by ding7777 on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:04:02 AM EST
    MY LAST POST....This is it: my final post for the Washington Monthly. Starting tomorrow I'll be blogging at Mother Jones.


    Oo, it's on. (none / 0) (#97)
    by lilburro on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:07:32 AM EST
    Obama finally made a good ad!

    Seven

    I think this ad could get some traction for Obama, even if McCain wants to slam him on Rezko or his own house.

    No (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:19:25 AM EST
    that ad is bad. If he had continued with it about issues it would have been good. When he moved to the personal attacks that's when the ad devolved and he put a target on his own back.

    Parent
    It has a bite. (none / 0) (#103)
    by lilburro on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:24:53 AM EST
    McCain's gaffe was terrible.  And should be made more terrible by ads like this, I hope.

    And that target has been on Obama's back for a long time anyway.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:36:49 AM EST
    the target has been on his back but now he gave McCain a huge opening. Rezko was always going to come into play but now McCain can use it more effectively because "Obama brought it up".

    It's going to come down to this: Which is worse? Not knowing how many houses you own or the one you have you couldn't afford so you got a convicted felon to help you buy it? I think if you are objective, the latter is going to be way worse. The "McCain is senile" thing from the Obama campaign really hasn't worked so far so I don't expect it to all of a sudden work. And if it is really "investment property" then Obama's attack has even less effect.

    The perfect ad on this subject would have been a compare and contrast ad. They have been shown to be very effective. Obama could have talked about foreclosures and how McCain has supported bad policy and then talk about what he plans to do about it. Instead he wastes a whole ad about how many houses McCain has. Stupid and clueless. But really what else is new? His ads have been bad for months now.

    Parent

    quick anecdote: (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by ccpup on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:51:26 AM EST
    I ran into a woman on my block last night who breathlessly told me how McCain didn't know how many homes he owned.  To her, it was huge news and, as she prepared to go into the "can you believe it" part of her story, the man I was walking with interrupted her with the "yeah, but Obama had a convicted felon help him buy his mansion"

    Stopped her dead in her tracks.  "Really?", she asked.  "Yeah, he was under federal investigation at the time from that guy ... (I gave him the name) ... yeah, right ... Fitzgerald, and went on to be convicted.  He's being sentenced in October.".  

    She LOVES Fitzgerald and you could almost hear her deflate.  "But Obama didn't really know him well, did he?"  "For twenty years"

    The breathless news that McCain didn't know how many houses he owned was immediately and quickly forgotten for the stronger, more interesting and damaging topic of conversation of Obama's association and friendship with a now convicted felon who helped him buy his mansion.

    Scenes like this are playing out all over the Country right now as people are introduced to the Obama-Rezko connection.

    It's a huge net win for McCain, in the end.

    Parent

    This whole summer, the Republicans (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by Valhalla on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:07:56 AM EST
    have just been lying-in-wait for the Obama campaign to give them their own attack ads.

    'Member back in June when we were all wondering when the Republicans were going to get going?  Well, this is what they were doing -- saving up talking points they could use in response to the amateurs.

    Meanwhile, Obama's campaign is still preaching to the converted.  All the age/senility stuff plays excellently with those who are already his supporters, and especially the younger ones whose resentment of older people has been pretty ruthlessly exploited and magnified for the last year.

    The Repubs are talking to America, Obama is talkikng to his fans.

    Parent

    talking to his fans (none / 0) (#143)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:16:51 AM EST
    this is so completely true

    Parent
    thats funny (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:59:54 AM EST
    I saw an almost identical episode in the supermarket after work yesterday.
    it ended with a pox on both your houses but I had the definite feeling that Obama was the loser.
    and I am in Obama land.  Illinois.

    Parent
    I'm in NYC (none / 0) (#135)
    by ccpup on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:09:39 AM EST
    Greenwich Village, to be exact.

    As you're from Illinois, perhaps you can give me an idea of what, exactly, Obama has done for his constituents during his brief time as Senator?

    I've always been curious what was promised during the campaign (other than that he wouldn't run for President in 2008 ... whoops!) and what he may have failed to deliver on.

    Parent

    interestingly (none / 0) (#140)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:12:29 AM EST
    I have tried more than once to find out that very thing.  the people I am mostly around are young and, sorry, clueless.  I get blank stares.

    Parent
    so what you seem to be (none / 0) (#153)
    by ccpup on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:29:23 AM EST
    saying is that in the three or four years Obama has been Senator, he hasn't done anything memorable legislatively for the people of Illinois?

    Love him or leave him, I suspect McCain has a record of keeping campaign promises to the people who elected him.  For Obama NOT to have something of a record as US Senator is yet another bright red target painted on his back.

    I can see the commercials now:  people stopped in the street and asked what Obama has done for them as Senator or what campaign promises he's kept and all they can come up with are blank stares or obvious -- perhaps hilarious? -- efforts to come up with something to say in return.  Anything to say in return.

    These things really write themselves, you know?

    Ugh.

    Parent

    My mom's in Illinois (none / 0) (#172)
    by echinopsia on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:04:13 AM EST
    And she is NOT impressed with her senator. She has been a Democrat all her life, volunteered for McGovern in 1972 and took me with her, and is really upset that she cannot support the Democratic candidate this year, for the first time in her entire life. She just does not trust him. And she is furious about how Hillary was treated.

    She's about to turn 90 and is no dummy.

    Parent

    Wow, in Ilinois? (none / 0) (#136)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:09:43 AM EST
    I'm in Illinois too, but it is 100% lockstep Obama-land around me here.

    Parent
    in the city of Champaign (none / 0) (#138)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:11:10 AM EST
    where I work, pretty much.
    I live in a tiny town, there not so much.
    are you nearby?


    Parent
    No, I'm in the Chicago suburbs (none / 0) (#150)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:22:37 AM EST
    Obama is my senator. It's a whole different state up compared to Champaign. We go down there a lot for school activities at the university.

    Parent
    Ok, I think I'm becoming psycho (none / 0) (#157)
    by Lil on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:30:07 AM EST
    spent the whole night dreaming about his "pick". I am losing it. This has almost beome a joke. If it is not Hillary it will be a very antclimactic announcement. That's why I think it is her.

    oh my god (none / 0) (#162)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:42:06 AM EST
    that is so sad.  and funny.

    Parent
    yes it is (none / 0) (#167)
    by Lil on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:47:30 AM EST
    but I am going to the beach today and I'm not on the text list, so I'll have fun anyway. LOL

    Parent
    No Hillary, no interest. (none / 0) (#166)
    by Fabian on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:46:30 AM EST
    Hillary would at least keep my interest in the race in a kind of political Bradgelina way.  Anyone else would just be another Obama shill.

    That's a sad statement, isn't it?

    Parent

    but so true. (none / 0) (#168)
    by Lil on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:48:39 AM EST
    Leonard C (none / 0) (#173)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:05:40 AM EST
    Cohen is one of those songwriters whose songs I just absolutely adore...when someone else sings them. There are of course a gazabillion covers of his songs to choose from, and almost all are great, but whenever I hear Cohen himself do the same songs I just want to put screwdrivers in my ears. Chacun a son gout, as the Frenchies say.

    you know (none / 0) (#176)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:16:35 AM EST
    I have heard other people say that.  I am completely the opposite.  the only person I have ever heard who I think works a well with his Lyrics is Rufus Wainright.  who also has sort of a strange dissonant voice.
    something about the dissonance of his lyrics makes it perfect for me.
    I love his voice.


    Parent
    I like both. (none / 0) (#184)
    by Fabian on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 11:28:19 AM EST
    The only renditions I loathe are the Conspiracy of Beards (via youtube) versions.  I usually adore a capella singing and I love Cohen, but the CofB renditions totally lack the proper context of Cohen's songs.  It's like when children first start playing music and concentrate soooo hard on getting the notes right that melody comes through in spite of their efforts.

    It's a tribute to Cohen that there are so many covers and so many good covers of his songs.  

    For fun, I offer Richard Thompson covering Britney Spears' "Oops, I Did It Again".  It's a crystal clear example of the difference between a genuine artist and a mediocre talent.

    Parent