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Saturday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:00:40 PM EST
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It's getting busy around here. Jane of Firedoglake is on her way over, I'm going to give her a tour of downtown.

Anita Thompson and photographer Lynn Goldsmith (photo here) will be arriving late this afternoon. Anita and Lynn are staying with me for the Convention. Lynn, whose amazing rock and roll photographs are available in this book, will be photographing the convention for Corbis. (More on Anita and Lynn here.)

Anita will blog a bit for TalkLeft and also at her Owl Farm blog and at Huffington Post. And yes, we'll be toasting and quoting her late husband, Gonzo journalist Hunter S. Thompson, frequently.

More...

After the convention, I'll be heading up to Owl Farm for Labor Day weekend and the Aspen Snowmass Jazz Fest, headlined this year by Bob Dylan.

It's going to be a busy week. Tonight is the party for the credentialed media at Elitch's and we'll also be going to a party hosted by Salon.

What's on your agenda for the day? This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Saturday Afternoon Open Thread | 86 comments (86 topical)

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    Have an enjoyable (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    and experience-filled week!

    Very disappointed in the Biden pick.... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    I foresee more dischord at the convention, but we shall see.

    Biden (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by tek on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:36:51 PM EST
    voted YES on the Iraq War Resolution.  So how does that square with all the Obama people who said they could not vote for Hillary because she voted yes for war.  Our Obama friends insisted that they could never vote for anyone who voted yes on Bush's Iraq war resolution.  So, what now?  These people will be hypocrites any way you slice it.

    Parent
    "I have better judgment"... (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by pmj6 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:39:14 PM EST
    ...mantra has been shown to be wanting, as shown by McCain's steady improvement in the polls and Obama's lackluster performance in his recent forays into foreign affairs.

    Parent
    O-B....you got some 'splainin' to do :) (none / 0) (#65)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:25:55 PM EST


    Parent
    Not just voted for the war (none / 0) (#88)
    by waldenpond on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 06:57:11 PM EST
    They will be hypocrits not just because Biden voted for the war but, he chastised other Dems for not supporting it and even better....
    [Biden at the time also complained that Republicans were getting away with taking credit for the idea of a pre-emptive war, when it was really a Democratic idea. "What is so transformational in the last four years is that these @ssholes who wouldn't give President Clinton the authority to use force" have now become, Biden said, moral interventionists. He added: "Give me a f^cking break."]

    Biden and Obama the same ilk.  Remember Kyl-Lieb... which two people refused to sign the letter to the Pres?     pfffft.

    Parent

    Jeralyn....tour guide extraordinnaire (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:03:25 PM EST


    I love being a tour guide (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:10:44 PM EST
    After 35 years here, I know the place pretty well.

    Last night Jane and I had a great dinner at North.
    We ended up covering all of Cherry Creek -- more than I intended -- because I was talking so much I forgot which srreet I parked my car on and we had to walk them all after dinner looking for it.


    Parent

    I never said I would not vote for Obama (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 02:04:47 PM EST
    I said Biden was a deal breaker for me personally and I could not personally support him. I stand by that.

    I'm trying to come around to voting for the ticket. The Republicans are worse. TalkLeft will continue to support the Democrats over Republicans.

    I may or may not vote in the presidential race. I have a few months to decide.

    Parent

    thanks, I just did (none / 0) (#83)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 04:45:55 PM EST
    delete it.

    Parent
    Well, having recently moved to Nevada (none / 0) (#63)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:16:11 PM EST
    I could use a tour guide...they are hard to find :)

    Parent
    Navigationally-impaired. Me too. (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:42:55 PM EST


    Parent
    Hoping you all will show up (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Jjc2008 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    on Tuesday for the march to honor Hillary and the anniversary of Suffrage.

    of course (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:11:37 PM EST
    and I'll have my video and regular camera to post photos afterwards.

    Parent
    lol at the pretzel twisting. I don't have too much (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    of a problem with Biden (especially in comparison to Bayh and Kaine) but it is funny to watch people convince themselves that Joe doesn't mess up Obama's change theme. I just read that "Biden is an "outside" insider".

    Yeah it is funny and a bit of a (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by TheJoker on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:19:48 PM EST
    disappointment for me even though I like Biden a lot. But people didn't support the "change" thing except for younger people so he had little choice. I agree with an earlier comment that stated Biden was probably wasn't the original choice. I have two theories: Kaine or Sebelius. He REALLY liked those two from all accounts this past year. But hey, because of the morons who thought McCain was more right on foreign policy (even though every iota of evidence contradicted that assumption) we get this. Biden's an okay person though.

    Parent
    Sorry. No buy. (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by Upstart Crow on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:29:26 PM EST
    "because of the morons who thought McCain was more right on foreign policy"

    Can't Obama take responsibility even for this decision?

    It's probably Hillary's fault...


    Parent

    Um...not sure what you mean. Do you agree (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by TheJoker on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:36:05 PM EST
    with McCain's foreign policy? That's your right if you do, but I think that would make you a bit of a misfit on this site as far as the moderators are concerned (they're progressives, and not the hawkish  kind). Also, how does what I said have anything at all to do with Hillary?

    Parent
    BTD (none / 0) (#66)
    by txpolitico67 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:25:55 PM EST
    is a self professed centrist hawk.

    Parent
    It just so happens... (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by pmj6 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:36:28 PM EST
    ...that in many respects McCain is better on foreign policy issues, including the most recent Russian invasion of Georgia. I wonder whether Obama's foreign policy flops (the nonremarkable world tour, the weak response to the Georgia crisis) have not influenced his choice. The "I have better judgment" shtick is clearly wearing thin. The fact he'd pick someone who, by Obama's own standards, has lousy judgment, but does have a lot of experience with foreign issues speaks volumes

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by Claw on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:55:27 PM EST
    McCain can't even keep the various ethno-religious groups in Iraq straight.  He really isn't better on foreign policy, he's just talked a lot more about it.

    Parent
    as opposed (none / 0) (#67)
    by txpolitico67 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:26:50 PM EST
    to knowing the USA has 50 states?

    Parent
    Or saying in his introductory speech (none / 0) (#71)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:41:20 PM EST
    that Biden is the "next president"?


    Parent
    I see your point (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Claw on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 04:44:37 PM EST
    Not knowing about a huge foreign policy disaster with serious ramifications, and flubbing a line from a speech are exactly the same.  Thank you for setting me straight.

    Parent
    The Biden selection is playing well in Scranton (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    where he was born and lived in his youth. See here for example.

    I expect that Paul Kanjorski should be happy about this, and Obama will now likely win the 11th district. (Yes, that was a concern to me before).

    He plays well with my political compass (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:17:18 PM EST
    (my mom). She's pretty upset about Hillary not being considered and had hoped he would pick her but as someone who only knows Biden's life story, she likes him. That widower father driving home each night will help him with women like her who don't know about particular bills he has voted for, etc.

    Parent
    Biden is a conundrum (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:23:43 PM EST
    He produces mixed feeling in most everyone I know who knows anything about him. He's like a really smart uncle who can sometimes seem like a crackpot, but you'd rather have him around than not.

    Anyway, I think he'll make it impossible for McCain to win Pennsylvania.

    Parent

    If Biden shows well these next two months (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:32:03 PM EST
    he will just be the nail in the coffin. This is what the people with the newfound BDS fail to understand. Oh and BTW, that BDS crowd does not include Jeralyn. She was critical of Biden on principle long before anyone else even cared about a Biden candidacy, not as a disingenuous way not to support Obama.

    Parent
    Oh, I have problems with Joe (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:35:18 PM EST
    But no deal breakers for me.

    Parent
    We agree. Biden ain't perfect, but (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:43:10 PM EST
    his views are pretty mainstream, which is unfortunate, because I sometimes disagree with the mainstream. I just laugh at these wingnuts that are trying to already come up with ways to paint Joe freakin Biden as some radical. Most people's reaction has been some form of "Ok. Decent guy...so what's the big deal?" :)

    Parent
    NYT (none / 0) (#11)
    by lilburro on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:17:50 PM EST
    suggests Biden will help with the Catholic vote, being a Catholic.  

    I find that almost impossible to believe as Biden = Catholic does not come to mind.  He might help with white males in general though.

    Parent

    Well, it's the basic outline of his story (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:25:50 PM EST
    But also, just putting on my political sixth sense hat, I know he's the kind of politician who plays well in working class PA.

    Parent
    Hmm (none / 0) (#25)
    by lilburro on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:33:39 PM EST
    I guess I don't know that much about Joe Biden.  I didn't know he would be perceived primarily as a Catholic.  

    When I was living in PA, all I ever saw Delaware as was a great place to buy cheap cigarettes...but hey, maybe that's just me.  

    For sure Biden and Obama are not a lock for the Indian vote...amazing how he found a running mate that reinforces his early D-Punjab gaffe.

    Parent

    I'm not saying that he's perceived primarily (none / 0) (#36)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:38:35 PM EST
    as a Catholic. But in this part of the country, a majority of working class whites are Catholic. It's more about attitude and hometown.

    Parent
    He only helps with the Catholic vote (none / 0) (#79)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 04:21:31 PM EST
    up to the point where the abortion issues raises its ugly head.  Kerry was a Catholic, too, and he got hammered for not being a good Catholic, remember?

    Parent
    A shocking thought in light of Biden for VP (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:18:57 PM EST
    It just occurred to me that if McCain selects a strong woman for VP he could almost reverse the change/more of same dynamic of this race and potentially draw a lot of independents and disenfranchised woman.

    Now that would be a bold stroke that may seal the election here and now. And then I wonder what the Obama supporters would do or say about Biden vs Clinton.

    Uh-huh... (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by pmj6 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:23:30 PM EST
    The ball is now in McCain's court. Of course, the chatter seems to point in the direction of Romney, but then again nobody knows anything.

    Parent
    I think picking Biden makes it less likely (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:33:41 PM EST
    for him to pick a risky running mate. Biden is too good of a debater to put up someone without a lot of experience nationally. I can't think of which woman he could pick that could debate Biden who isn't pro-choice. Are there any?

    Parent
    Kay Bailey Hutchison is the best choice for him (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:36:17 PM EST
    But she doesn't want the job.

    Parent
    Wonder why? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:39:37 PM EST
    (Hillary Rosen just said that Biden will address what he said about Obama's experience in his speech today. That should be interesting.)

    Parent
    Well, the Republican base doesn't like her (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:42:34 PM EST
    She's not sufficiently hardline on abortion (as far as I'm concerned, she's anti-choice), and she's seen as a country club Republican. (Think George Bush Senior).

    Parent
    Im in TX (none / 0) (#68)
    by txpolitico67 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:29:40 PM EST
    and she is VERY well liked here. She's going to run against Governor Good Hair.

    Parent
    Really Teresa? I can't wait for that! (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:44:55 PM EST


    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#40)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:39:47 PM EST
    I saw her on TV last night against Bill Richardson and she was SO much better than him, it was laughable. I haven't really seen her in action before. She was incredibly poised and dignified.

    Parent
    I just (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by tek on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:39:42 PM EST
    this minute watched a republican ad that not only shows Biden saying that Obama is not ready to be president, they have another clip where Biden says he would be honored to run WITH John McCain.

    Could this election be any more screwed up?

    Parent

    Yes, stay tune N/T (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:43:59 PM EST


    Parent
    Don't worry... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Upstart Crow on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:31:26 PM EST
    Rumor has it that McCain is not in the market for "bold strokes" on this one.

    Parent
    Christy Todd Whitman (none / 0) (#22)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:31:33 PM EST
    Although she probably doesn't want anything to do with McCain

    Parent
    I thought of her but she's pro-choice isn't she? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:35:05 PM EST


    Parent
    Sarah Palin of Alaska (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by cmugirl on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:38:09 PM EST


    Parent
    Is she sharp enough to debate Biden? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Teresa on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:42:01 PM EST
    I've read about her but I've never heard her speak so I don't know. I guess she could play up her executive experience where Biden is lacking to make up for her lack of FP experience.

    Parent
    She is amazing on her feet (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by americanincanada on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 02:18:08 PM EST
    speaks without a teleprompter and is very engaging and whip-smart. I have seen her hold her own with everyone from Glenn Beck (who loves her btw) to Kudlow and others.

    She is pro-life, a lifetime member of the NRA, fought corruption in her own party much to the chagrin of her collegues and loves to hunt and fish. Her personal story is very, very compelling.

    You can find many instances of her speaking on youtube as I did doing my research. I have long thought she was the dark horse, ever since I knew McCain was vetting her months ago.

    Parent

    If McCain is smart (none / 0) (#69)
    by txpolitico67 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:33:12 PM EST
    he will pick this woman.  And if they win, the Republicans will be able to claim:

    1. They appointed the first AA to SOS
    2. They appointed the first AA WOMAN to SOS
    3. They appointed the first Hispanic as AG
    4. They elected a woman to be VP of the USA

    Dems will look like they have been dusted as far as progress goes with respect to appointing and electing women and people of color.

    Clinton/Obama would have been a killer ticket.  But oh well.

    Parent

    The Christian Conservatives would never allow... (none / 0) (#86)
    by NvlAv8r on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 06:26:48 PM EST
    A pro-choice VP.  I'm guessing that most would be uncomfortable with a woman, but a pro-choice woman would keep a lot of the base home.  

    Parent
    Yes she is pro choice (none / 0) (#53)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 02:02:09 PM EST
    She has a "progressive pac" going within the Reoublican Party.  I think she and some others are hoping for a wipeout in November which might give some new faces a chance to build a more centrist Republican Party..

    on the other hand they could end up with Mitt

    Parent

    Never happen (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:35:52 PM EST
    Men will not vote for a female VP or P in anywhere near sufficient numbers, and I'm sure McCain knows this very well.

    Parent
    I don't think its about women voting (none / 0) (#90)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:40:26 PM EST
    Rather the perception of the two tickets. All of a sudden the McCain ticket seems more "current" and "change" like, while the Obama ticket not as much with Biden.

    Parent
    Keep in mind (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:19:23 PM EST
    that while all points of view are welcome here, you may not engage in personal or character attacks or name calling on anyone, and that includes Senators Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

    Our comment moderator will delete them and repeat offenders will be banned. If you cannot figure out how to express your disappointment or disagreement civilly, please find another site to post on.

    If the following statements are true (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:52:34 PM EST
    1.  Edgar08 spent the last 8 years excoriating dems like Biden as corporatist vichy dem sell outs who build political careers out of warmongering and sticking it to the middle class and propping of republican ideas.

    2.  Edgar08 supported Obama and worked tirelessly on his behalf so that he would be the nominee because he said he would be different than dems like Biden.

    Then I would be forced to conclude something about Edgar08 and Obama that either way you look at it kind of ends up being a sort of not so very nice thing to say about at least one of them.  Edgar08 or Obama.  Someone's playing a game here.  You decide.

    If you can think of a nicer way to put it, I'll be happy to comply with your rules.  But at some point, some rules would eclipse one's ability to accurately assess the situation.

    Speaking for myself, I would feel made a fool of if the two above statements were true.

    Thank goodness they are not.  Not about me, anyway.

    Parent

    Well well. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:25:15 PM EST
    We have a new Democratic ticket.

    The acceptance speech is next week.

    The debates start next month.

    Election Day is in less than 60 days.

    It's officially Showtime.

    Will the Illinois gov be at teh rally today? (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:31:55 PM EST
    The gov lives up the street in Springfield, after all.  But some Chicago press say that the disgraced Dem gov (I know; those adjectives are almost redundant in Illinois) has to wash his hair or something.

    Seeing Springfield on the tv today, with this sorry ticket, is just making me sad.  I love Springfield and New Salem and Lincolniana, all of which I first saw on a childhood trip that gave me an early interest in American history.  

    So I'm thinking today of a Springfielder who isn't often thought about.  A woman who was treated so terribly in American history and who is buried there with her spouse and three sons, including the one she loved and lost in the horrible White House years for her, because of the media boyz even then.

    I'm getting Jean Harvey Baker's bio of Mary Todd Lincoln off the bookshelf and onto the nightstand again for a re-read.  And for a reminder of how little progress we have made in so many ways.

    And I'm turning off the tv.  I don't want Springfield ruined for me, too.  Maybe that's what the governor is thinking.

    I was actually wondering (none / 0) (#73)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:45:30 PM EST
    if there had been a rock band of known fame that may have kept the crowd entertained while waiting.


    Parent
    Turns out that, yes, it was blues bands (none / 0) (#80)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 04:38:10 PM EST
    that brought thousands to town for an annual statewide blues festival in Springfield!  I just looked up the local paper online.

    Brilliant call on your part, Java. :-)

    Parent

    John Edwards (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by cmugirl on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:33:57 PM EST
    Warren Buffet is suggesting (hypothetically) that a class-action lawsuit should be brought against John Edwards for knowingly taking donations with this bombshell in his closet.

    Thought-provoking....

    Link

    Dems don't care about Female People (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Ellie on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 02:53:14 PM EST
    [/channeling Kanye]

    I've long suspected it but it's good to have it so shamelessly, explicitly laid out so I don't have to waste my time on that whole 'having nowhere else to go' exercise.

    (That's the one where all the extra weight, and lifting duty, is piled on MY end so fauxmenist 'pioneers' like Nancy Pelosi can scurry around like a feckin' eedj for head-pats and table scraps.)

    The Oboiz and Ogurlz can join JJJr all they want in the ridiculously conjured outrage over 'analyzing' Sen Clinton's tears and poring over how many were for Katrina.

    I might give a sh!t about the equivalent concern over other human rights' issues on that glorious day when Obama's little girls are grown up and realize EVEN THEY can compete for an office for which they're qualified --- with that built-in Quit While You're Ahead proviso.

    I'll probably still be around (albeit somewhat meaner than I am now) pleasantly having forgotten that and other Best Obama Insights Evah.

    I am woman (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Jjc2008 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:07:32 PM EST
    I've lost my roar ....at least for this election cycle.
    Sigh!
    I am NOT a PUMA though on another blog I have been accused of being that, a dead-ender, a "bitter knitter" and whatever.
    I am a fairly typical over 55 woman.  I am more to the left than most of my friends, who tended to be more centrist. This includes caucasian women, Hispanic women, African American women and one full blooded Navajo woman. Of all of them I was the most activist.  I started out this cycle as seeing Kucinich closest to my views (but politically astute enough to know he was not going to be an option in this media driven, personality culture.)  After him I was pretty close with Edwards and Hillary giving money to both.    But I could live, I said, with ANY of the nominees....as I saw them as close enough on policy for me when it came to the big picture.

    But something snapped somewhere in the beginning from the MSM, the blogs and the local political scene (dominated of course by men).  I kept denying it and denying it but I felt it...the blatant sexism.  My friends felt it too.  Only we were all were silent about it, as was Hillary, for fear of being accused of playing the gender card, playing the victim card.   But then, it happened.  I could not tell you the exact day or time, but at some point I could not, they could not hold it in.
    It was so damned obvious, the elephant in