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The Platform: Health Care

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that laws are made by the legislature, not the president. Any proposal for a substantial change in the law that the president sends to Congress is likely to be amended repeatedly before it comes back to the president for a signature.

Recognizing that reality, presidential platforms tend to be more general than specific. Still, it appears the Democratic platform will recognize (as it should) the valuable contributions that Hillary Clinton and others have made to the debate over health care reform.

The committee charged with updating the platform agreed to include suggestions from Clinton, whose campaign emphasized universal health care.

[more ...]

In a draft of the platform, the party described health care as "a shared responsibility between employers, workers, insurers, providers and government. All Americans should have coverage they can afford."

Michael Yaki, an Obama aide who directed the platform meetings, said the new language was a recognition there may be more than one way to achieve the shared goal of universal coverage.

"There's no real consensus yet on which is the best health care reform to do other than we are committed to universality and we're committed to getting there," Yaki said. "We believe that as you make health care more affordable, people will be able to buy health care - that's the basic principle. How we get there is a matter of the legislative process." ...

Chris Jennings, a Clinton backer and drafting committee member, worked to insert stronger language from Clinton's plan, particularly on the "shared responsibility."

"It was important that that was stated quite clearly in the platform," said Jennings, who served as health care adviser to former President Clinton. He said the committee's move was "an honorable accommodation that illustrates a commitment to unity." ...

"While there are differing approaches within the party about how best to achieve the commitment of universal coverage, we stand united to achieve this fundamental objective through the legislative process," according to the draft.
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    I agree with Krugman (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:34:37 PM EST
    When Obama said "Harry and Louise" Obama destroyed the notion of Healthcare for the next presidential term.

    Link

    Linky-poo

    They can put the subject on the platform all day.  It's lip service, nothing more.  LOL, too funny that anyone takes it seriously.  If you believe it, I have a bridge for sale.

    A few weeks ago, Krugman was (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by MarkL on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:37:23 PM EST
    looking at Obama's proposed budget, and he calculated that there was no money for a new health care program.

    Parent
    And that was before (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by BrianJ on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:05:41 PM EST
    The newest stimulus program Obama announced.  And his call to increase for NASA funding yesterday to pick up a few more Florida votes (yet another reversal).

    Honestly, McCain may now be more fiscally responsible, and that's damn frightening.

    Parent

    That still makes my head explode (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:49:08 PM EST
    with Hillary she may have been able to get around it since Obama did it, but I don't see how he can. Especially with Kerry saying Hillary's plan was a no-starter.

    Parent
    Our own party took UHC off the issue table (none / 0) (#85)
    by ChuckieTomato on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:14:33 AM EST
    for this election. It was not Harry and Louise

    Hillary was the only candidate proposing UHC. I think the best case is that it will be punted to the states in some type of Medicaid expansion.

    But that leaves unemployed/under-employed waiting until a catastrophic diagnosis before they can qualify for help, especially single adults without children.

    Parent

    whatever happened to.... (5.00 / 7) (#5)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:51:14 PM EST
    "Health Care is a Right"?

    The platform statement is pure BS...  it doesn't even recognize that not everyone in america is an employee, and makes it clear that "employer-based" health insurance is the only way that will be considered.

    But what kills me is that this completely lame statement is considered stronger than what Obama wanted -- that it was an "honorable accomodation".  

    And since this is just the 'platform' its pretty obvious that Obama is completely abandoning universal health care.....

    Heh, I'm not an employee (none / 0) (#6)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:56:50 PM EST
    but when I was, my employer based HI was skyrocketing to the point I was going to drop it. I just quit my job instead, lol!~, but with yearly raises not covering all the rising costs dropping HI was a serious consideration. I can't remember what the hike was going to be, but it was significant. For those with the family plan, ouch!

    Oh and to answer your question, Hillary isn't running anymore.

    Parent

    Thanks for this ... (none / 0) (#98)
    by camellia on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 06:47:55 AM EST
    "it doesn't even recognize that not everyone in america is an employee, and makes it clear that "employer-based" health insurance is the only way that will be considered."  This hits home with my family in a big way.  Both my daughter and son-in-law are disabled; they are both on social security disability payments and Medicaid.  Their medications are Very Expensive, and there is no way that on their combined incomes of $1200 per month they could afford them so Medicaid is essential.   If they work, they would earn too much money to qualify for it, and would not be able to get health insurance because of their pre-existing conditions.

    They both want to work, and are qualified to do so if they can (a) find an employer who is willing to make the necessary adjustments for them (and forget the ADA, it's useless), and health care coverage that does not exclude previous conditions.  So -- they can't find work, can't get off social security, because they need their Medicaid in order to keep them well enough to function in the community, and must try to live in a very expensive area on $1200 per month.  

    Now ask me why I voted for Hillary Clinton.

    Parent

    Not good enough (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by cawaltz on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:58:21 PM EST
    Feel free to pass on to the DNC that I am done with half measures. They either perform action on items that persuade me this is more than lip service or I find people that will support true universal health care, democrat or not.

    Well (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:03:51 PM EST
    Until the day that you can walk into a hospital with a copy of the Democratic Party platform and get treated, I'm not going to worry a whole lot about it.

    The platform always struck me as a sort of game whereby various interest groups can pretend that they're either on the bus or off it depending on whether they're permitted to influence the platform.  But at the end of the day, I don't see how it's anything more than a signifier at the very most.

    Michael Moore may steal your (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:12:28 PM EST
    idea.  

    Parent
    Platforms are both very important (none / 0) (#16)
    by Valhalla on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:40:05 PM EST
    and very unimportant.

    There's no enforcement mechanism so they're not important at all compared to laws.  Worthless, actually, from that aspect.

    But they are very important in a couple of ways.  They can signal the real maneuvering going on behind the scenes.  In that case, they are mostly dispositively significant.  If health care isn't in the platform at all, then it's a pretty clear signal that the party will be expending 0 capital on it.

    They also have importance in symbolic effect.  An outright 'Healthcare is a right' backed by convention emphasis gets people thinking about healthcare as a right.  Nothing will change overnight, and a line in the platform alone can't do the job on it's own, but it contributes to shifting the public perception.

    Of course, lawyerly mean-little language like above doesn't have quite the same effect.

    Parent

    Recognizing Clinton's contributions to the debate (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:14:42 PM EST
    while rejecting her solution.

    Thanks for playing Hillary, better luck next time.

    We have these lovely parting gifts for you... (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:18:32 PM EST
    It's called (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:22:05 PM EST
    the "honorable mention" award.

    They really do think we're stupid.

    Parent

    Well, it was written the (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:27:44 PM EST
    other day that the platform would ultimately reflect the candidate's view when all was said and done. I look at these platform meetings as yet another farce. "Listening to the people" my a$$. If they really did that, well . . .

    Parent
    This is what really drives me nuts ... (5.00 / 9) (#17)
    by FreakyBeaky on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:41:45 PM EST
    In a draft of the platform, the party described health care as "a shared responsibility between employers, workers, insurers, providers and government. All Americans should have coverage they can afford."

    ...

     "We believe that as you make health care more affordable, people will be able to buy health care - that's the basic principle. How we get there is a matter of the legislative process." ...

    No.  All Americans should have health coverage regardless of their ability to afford it.  You mandate that through the legislative process.  You then take advantage of economies of scale afforded by universality to contain costs.  Otherwise, go home.  

    Is this hard to figure out?  What's wrong with this picture, if it is not that the Whole Foods wing of the Democratic party simply does not support universal health care?  

    Possibly (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:43:34 PM EST
    he was talking about the GOP platform, not the Democratic one?  They are the ones who always hide behind a Magical Affordability Pony when this issue comes up.  It's a great way to avoid having to talk about tough solutions.

    Parent
    Heh, there's this lil' nugget (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:01:29 PM EST
    towards the end of the article:

    The document is also heavy on Obama's message of change, a theme that helped him win his party's nomination.

    Wouldn't a standard Dem platform be "change" from what's happening currently?

    Does anyone know if E Edwards was involved in the HC platform? Wasn't she supposed to play a role according to Obama, or am I not remembering right??

    Parent

    I just wrote a comment about Elizabeth (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Teresa on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:16:37 PM EST
    Edwards, too, and then somehow lost it. I vote we put Elizabeth and Hillary in charge of the health care part of the platform. This is our best chance and we are going to blow it.

    We need a forceful statement on health care and it looks like we aren't going to get it.

    If they want Hillary to release her delegates so we can have a love-in convention, I wish she'd say fine, use my health care proposal in exchange.

    Parent

    This statement: (5.00 / 8) (#18)
    by Anne on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:43:07 PM EST
    "We believe that as you make health care more affordable, people will be able to buy health care - that's the basic principle."

    could have come right out of the mouths of the Republicans, and approaches universality from the wrong starting point - which tells me that the chances of any real progress on universal health care are slim, really slim.

    This is a perfect example of the influence of Barack Obama on the platform, bringing to it a big red, flashing-neon sign that says, "Willing to negotiate - nothing is a deal-breaker, no element we can't agree to throw out - just tell us what you'll vote for and we'll come up with a plan."

    It's all just so...nice.  And we know that "nice" is responsible for all the major achievments in our history, so I guess we have nothing to worry about.

    [Time for another Zantac...urp]

    If you make gas more affordable, (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:48:00 PM EST
    more people will be able to afford it.  Presto magico.

    Parent
    Reminds me of how Bush (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:40:48 PM EST
    was going to "jawbone" the oil companies into keeping gasoline affordable.

    It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I'm not betting on affordable health care any time soon.

    Parent

    All that I can look forward to (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Coldblue on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:44:41 PM EST
    is a determined Hillary in the senate to see that it is not negotiable.

    Parent
    Yup. (none / 0) (#21)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:50:06 PM EST
    Were any of the Repubs aside from McCain suggesting getting the employer out of the process? It's been awhile since I tore my hair out listening to their debate on HC.

    Parent
    Find those who will (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Patriot Missile on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:04:09 PM EST
    Good luck with that. While you're at it, get me a government that will end poverty, stop fighting a war on drugs, and doesn't elect a President based upon who we'd rather have a drink with.

    Maybe I'm just too cynical, but maybe all the gloom and doom from the left flank is just leaving me cold. Eight years of wandering through the desert and watching the horror of the Bush Admin reign supreme, and it seems that there are far too many "progressives" (I'm a liberal, still, and will be to the day they bury me) who'd rather complain about the '08 election before it even gets off the ground. You knew that there were going to be serious questions about what specifics get passed in the legislature. You knew that whoever would be the Democratic nominee would pivot to the center (nearly every one of them has, and the Repubs do this too). Does anyone seriously ponder how much worse it will be if we get a third term for George W. in JSM? Obama is not a shining progressive (though for that matter, neither was anybody not named Edwards or Kucinich, for that matter).  Politics will always be the choice between two people somewhat to the center right/center left of of the electorate.

    Some movement to the left is better than the guarantee of none at all.


    Except they overshot the move (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by Valhalla on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:18:42 PM EST
    to the left and ended circling back around to the right.  This is just a Texas Two Step away from the Republican's riff.

    Parent
    I didn't know "change" came in a crock (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by lambert on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:12:08 PM EST
    Because a crock is exactly what this is.

    Let me translate "shared responsibility" -- It means single payer is off the table. Hello, HCAN't! Goodbye, a system that actually works.

    I don't blame Clinton's people for not getting better language out of The Lightbringer. It wasn't worth the effort anyhow, because Obama's word isn't good (FISA; offshore oil); and in any case Obama, as other commenters said, polluted the discourse with Harry and Louise ads.

    Well done, FKD!

    It does (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:47:08 PM EST
    It's called "I Can't Believe It's Not Change!".  Half the calories and fat of real change.

    Shared responsibility sounds like exactly what we have now. Dems will encourage, but probably not legislate, efficiencies that may or may not result in lower prices to consumers. My bet is they will increase profit to shareholders, and not much else.

    Parent

    And another thing (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Miri on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:22:18 PM EST
    Party platform is one of those things peope get excited about, argue, claim "victory" and yet they never bother to think what it means, what it is that they are fighting for.

    The party platform paper will be just another piece of garbage the day after the convention. This also applies to the GOP.

    There is health care that is needed and the (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by MO Blue on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:45:47 PM EST
    health care that you will get under the NEW Democratic Party.

    IMO the health care that will be enacted during an Obama administration will be an expanded S=Chip program much like the bipartisan bill passed by Congress and then vetoed by Bush. Also, might get recommendations that so called cost saving measures by insurance companies, hospitals and doctors like computerized medical records etc be implemented etc.

    Less I forget, we will also get the very best speeches evah on health care.  

    Wyden's Healthy Americans Act would replace the current employer-based health insurance system and replace it with a system in which the government requires, subsidizes, and oversees a system of private health care plans that individuals select. The coverage is guaranteed to be as good as that which federal employees receive, and the government subsidizes health care for people up to 400 percent of the poverty level.

    The plan is funded by changes to the tax code, including a tax on employers of between 3 percent and 26 percent.


    I think was is needed is a gradual plan (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:24:50 PM EST
    All of a sudden European style universal healthcare will never happen in this country.  But what we need to do is put a plan in motion that will eventually end up with universal healthcare.  That is, I envision multple legislative acts that 10-15 years from now would be what we all want now.  

    That would almost make me smile (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by CoralGables on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:45:22 PM EST
    Ten to fifteen years? Oh we should be so lucky. I'm in total agreement though that it won't happen overnight. Dreams die hard though, and mine are/were a true universal health care system and the elimination of capital punishment. I gave up holding my breath on both too long ago to want to remember.

    Your practical approach is something I should have adopted long ago.

    Parent

    I was talking with a Republican friend (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:46:04 PM EST
    yesterday.  He also voted for Hillary in the primaries.  

    We both thought healthcare was important.  The problem is, neither McCain or Obama will do anything about it.  They don't have the political will or the knowledge that Hillary had about healthcare as a whole.  

    Plus, as we all know, Hillary Clinton was a fighter and this meant something to her.  She would have fought, tooth and nail, to see her vision of universal healthcare implemented.  

    Oh well, there is always the next election...  

    She still can Grace. Presidents don't write (none / 0) (#46)
    by Teresa on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:59:16 PM EST
    the bills. I will be writing her to continue this fight.

    Parent
    Isn't the real sign of what's going (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by frankly0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:46:25 PM EST
    to come of UHC under Obama the fact that he has, so far as I know, hardly ever spoken of it since he became the presumptive nominee?

    Does anybody imagine that if Hillary were running, she'd feature it as her most fundamental issue, and her most important differentiator from John McCain?

    I'm sure that Obama, in contrast, doesn't want to engage that policy issue as a real differentiator because 1) he doesn't want to have to talk about raising taxes, 2) he sees no major political upside to it, and 3) he doesn't really give a care about it fundamentally. It was, at most, something he embraced in the first place only because he knew it would lose him Democratic votes if he had no positive position on it -- so he and his campaign cranked out some sausage.

    The simple fact is that if Obama doesn't make UHC a prominent part of his candidacy, he will not have a mandate to bring it about. And I simply don't see how a major step like UHC could be brought about without a clear mandate, and a politician willing to lay down some political capital to fight for it. Of course, he could bring some botch job into being -- and that is really what I expect.

    Right. (none / 0) (#59)
    by TChris on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:23:05 PM EST
    He "hardly ever" talks about it.  He hasn't spoken about his health care plan since ... yesterday.  Unless he did today.

    From his speech to the Urban League:

    This election is about the 47 million people who don't have health care - including 1 in 5 African Americans - people for whom one accident, one illness could mean financial ruin. That's why, when I'm President, we'll bring down health care costs by $2,500 for the typical family and prevent insurance companies from discriminating against those who need care most.


    Parent
    Talk is cheap, and anyone here can (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Anne on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:41:20 PM EST
    do a credible riff on the talking points, but when Obama says he will bring down health care costs by $2,500 for the typical family, what does that mean?  Does it mean that the $6K I pay to cover me and my daughter - my husband is covered by the VA - will come down to $3,500?  And who, exactly, is going to get BC/BS to do that for me?

    And when does he talk about the people who don't even have the $2,500 that would be saved in the first place?  In order to save on health care costs, you first have to be able to pay for health care - and if you can't do that, what good is it to be promised savings?  And considering that paying the premium is not the end of the cost - there are still co-pays and deductibles - is it any wonder that this so-called savings Obama talks about means nothing to a lot of those 47 million people?

    And how, exactly, will he eliminate discrimination in health care coverage?  Does he ever talk about that?  Does he ever talk about how, exactly, he is going to get the insurance lobby to go along with legislation that would eliminate that discrimination?

    Anyone can do the whole "47 million people without health insurance" speech - but I have heard little to nothing about how he intends to get those people covered.

    All he's doing, in my opinion, is blowing smoke.

    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#65)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:54:42 PM EST
    prevent insurance companies from discriminating against those who need care most.

    I assume he means cancer patients, AIDS patients, etc.  Just because you force insurance companies to cover these people doesn't mean you make that coverage affordable.  Here in Washington, if insurance denies you coverage you can apply for the state insurance pool.  Of course, if you're over 55, the premium is in the range of $1000/mo.

    So, it sounds really good, but it's puff and smoke unless specifics are given.

    Besides that, didn't Krugman say a few weeks ago that Obama's budget provides NO money for healthcare?

    Parent

    Teresa, do you know about (none / 0) (#74)
    by shoephone on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:32:02 PM EST
    Health Care For All - WA? They have just started a series of caucuses in the Puget Sound area. I went to one in June in the University District.

    There are others coming up. The next one is in Bellevue. The coalition is made up of 88 different organizations. The goal is universal health care for all of the state's citizens. We'll see how far they get in next year's legislative session...

    Parent

    Look, the issue is not (none / 0) (#62)
    by frankly0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:41:13 PM EST
    does Obama happen to mention it in his some of his speeches -- as I should think you should know. It's how prominently it comes across in his overall message.

    All I can say is that one rarely hears about what Obama is saying on UHC. One rarely hears about how he is contrasting his position with McCain's. One rarely hears about how his campaign commercials present stark contrasts between the future of health care under his plans vs McCain's in his ads.

    My thinking is that if Obama and his campaign really wanted to make UHC one of the keystones of his candidacy for President, and his differentiator from McCain, we, as political junkies, would all know about it almost ad nauseum by now, because it would be featured so prominently in the good majority, or at least a good plurality, of what he had to say.

    If I and others don't have the impression that Obama is talking about UHC much, or that he's constantly contrasting himself with McCain on this position, then he hasn't made it a fundamental part of his message.

    And that's the point.

    Parent

    Obama could give (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by TChris on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:58:41 PM EST
    boring and wonkish speeches like Kerry was inclined to do, or he can give speeches that people want to listen to.  Health care reform is part of Obama's standard stump speech.  What do you want him to do:  give long speeches on that topic and nothing else? My point is that wonkish details will ultimately be decided by Congress, not by the president.  McCain is likely to veto any plan that doesn't appeal to insurance companies.  Obama will sign a Democratic plan into law.  And actually, I think most political junkies, including those who comment here, are quite familiar with Obama's proposal.

    Parent
    Real bullet points (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:12:02 PM EST
    on healthcare are important to me.  If they aren't important to you, then you probably aren't worried about healthcare.

    Talking specifics about things people care about the most is not "wonkish".

    Parent

    Completely different point (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by TChris on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:55:00 PM EST
    than the one I was addressing.  You want specifics and bullet points, they're easy to find. Here's a 15 page pdf that explains the Obama plan in detail.  I don't want Obama reading a 15 page summary of his plan during stump speeches because his audience will start to snooze. That doesn't mean I don't think details should exist or that I don't care about them; it means I want Obama to campaign effectively.  Being a wonk isn't an effective style unless he's addressing policy wonks.  Cf. Kerry, the wonk who lost, and Bush, the "visionary" who won.  The fact is, Obama has a detailed plan, it's not much different than other Democratic plans that are likely to be floated next term, and it's way better than McCain's "I'll give you a tax credit" plan.  And again, legislation is made in Congress.  We need a president who will sign a health care reform bill, not a president who will veto whatever plan the Democrats send him.

    Parent
    He could also do a town hall or two (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Anne on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:12:45 PM EST
    specifically on the issue of health care, and take questions from people that would allow some detailed discussion of some of those wonkish details in a way that would not be boring.

    Honestly, if I did not have health insurance because I could not afford it, if I had pre-existing conditions that were preventing me from getting covered, I would welcome the opportunity to be bored by the wonky details; I would be on the edge of my seat listening for the details that would convince me the stress of not having health insurance might finally be relieved.

    Given that this is the same candidate who continues to float the fallacy that his plan would cover everyone, I'm pretty sure he is not going to risk being unable to coherently discuss the details of health care in an open town hall any time soon.

    The shame of it is that Hillary could do it standing on her head, and in such a way that people would not only better understand the ins-and-outs of solving the problem, but would be fired up to help her do it.

    Parent

    pre-existing conditions is my issue (none / 0) (#73)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:28:00 PM EST
    right now. I'm moving to CA and will need to be able to get something somewhat affordable. pre-existing will screw me and I'm hitting the age that my sister and parents started needing treatment for genetic conditions. I could be lucky and they could pass me by, but I can't risk them being found yet. And I'm getting close to the age where the price will hike anyway, as my father so politely reminded my a couple weeks ago. Thanks Dad.

    Parent
    I'm sure (none / 0) (#81)
    by TChris on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:00:33 AM EST
    Hillary will play a leading role in the Senate, where the legislation will be crafted.  I'm also sure that Obama will sign whatever Hillary and the rest of the legislature sends him.  

    There is absolutely no validity to the argument that Obama would be "unable to coherently discuss the details of health care."  You don't think he's smart enough to understand his own plan? That's just a cheap and unjustified shot at Obama.



    Parent
    I think the problem is (none / 0) (#87)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 01:31:40 AM EST
    his lack of clarity/commitment to issues and his flippin'. Would he really sign it if Hillary and Co gave him something that would really be "for the people"? Would he let them even get that far? He made me more unsettled on issues during the primaries, but since he's been the "nominee" Oy. I grew up in and still have a Mod Republican family. My Dem nerves have been twitching big time with him. Heck, he's starting to make my mom look more Dem than him. But to her credit, I think she's more liberal than she'll admit on certain issues  ;)

    Parent
    voters (none / 0) (#90)
    by CHDmom on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:51:49 AM EST
    Obama is having real problems connecting to MANY of the working class, or lower income voters. Healthcare is a HUGE concern for many of them. Also MANY of Hillary's supporters initially chose Hillary because of her passion for healthcare and we knew she would fight for healthcare for all. Since Obama is struggling with these voters, this would have been a great opportunity to connect with them and maybe even have a better chance of getting voters that plan on staying home in Nov, to vote for him.
     Also maybe IF he made UHC a priority, he might just even be able to get Dems that are planning to vote for McCain to at least think about supporting Obama, or heck at least get them to stay home instead of voting for McCain. My son has a congenital heart defect, and I belong to a few support groups of families affected w/ CHD. Healthcare is a huge concern, but I know many people took Kerry at his word when he said UHC is off the table and I believe Mccain is suggesting a larger saving for each family than Obama. So I look at this as a big missed opportunity. It's funny in a sad way, instead of chasing after Independents or Evangelicas maybe he'd do better FIGHTING for something that many Democrats thought was a Right and really care about.

    Parent
    The point is this (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:13:59 PM EST
    Obama could make bread-and-butter issues like health care the focus of his campaign.

    Or he could make the latest advertising spat with John McCain the focus of his campaign.

    It is not about the strawman of loading up his speeches with wonky details.  It is what he chooses to make the overarching narrative of his campaign about.  There are tangible benefits that the Democrats are trying to offer voters, and we're not going to get a mandate to put those plans into action if the whole campaign is a personality-based argument about who's the worst flip-flopper.

    Parent

    You're confusing (none / 0) (#82)
    by TChris on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:05:39 AM EST
    what the media choose to report with what Obama makes the focus of his campaign.  Health care is one of many subjects that are important to the Obama campaign.  If the media choose to focus on the 30 seconds he spends talking about McCain's advertising rather than the 20 minutes he spends talking about substantive issues, take your beef to the networks and cable outlets.  Or start reading the major newspapers that actually cover the issues reasonably well. Don't bash Obama because the cable news would rather talk about anything other than substantive policy differences.

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#84)
    by Steve M on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:13:53 AM EST
    The media may be completely dysfunctional, but the campaign still bears the responsibility to get their message out, one way or another.

    For example, if every time you mention race, the media goes into a tizzy and talks about nothing else for the next several days, then don't mention race unless you want that result.

    Election after election, Democrats have lamented "I wanted to talk about the issues, but the media only wanted to discuss trivia!"  Well, figure out a way to make them stop, or keep losing elections.  Politics is unfair that way.

    Parent

    Wonk doesn't have to be boring (none / 0) (#72)
    by nycstray on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:19:37 PM EST
    just ask Hillary  ;) Even when she did stumps with less wonk in them, you knew her words had meat because of her debates. But she had a way of getting the info out on her stumps, answering specific needs of her audience and putting  some real passion behind it.

    Obama can't do that. If he gets specific or wonks, he may just have to stick to it or be held accountable. Blurring the lines is his way of "letting" us "project what we want onto him".

    Parent

    I'm thinking most people would be (none / 0) (#78)
    by Valhalla on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:24:24 PM EST
    pretty darn interested in health care specifics, given the percent of the average family's budget it absorbs (for those how can afford it) and how out of reach it is for most people.

    He doesn't have to recite a 100 page policy proposal.

    But mentioning as one thing in a big long speech isn't emphasizing it.

    Most candidates have a few major cornerstones of their campaigns.  Health care is not a cornerstone of Obama's campaign.

    Including it in the party platform or a bunch of speeches is necessary but not sufficient, really, to believe he will expend any political capital on it.

    Parent

    Just to add to my point (none / 0) (#66)
    by frankly0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:58:39 PM EST
    the speech you link to is 2619 words long.

    95 words of it are devoted to UHC.

    And this is your example of how Obama is making a big deal out of his support for UHC?

    Parent

    I believe it was Paul Krugman (none / 0) (#92)
    by weltec2 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:16:47 AM EST
    who pointed out that BO's plan about cutting costs would not even begin to take effect until 2018. His plan for this cut was administrative not practical in terms of how the plan should be covered overall.

    Parent
    I read an interview he gave to our local paper in (none / 0) (#104)
    by suzieg on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:41:48 AM EST
    which he clearly stated that he would not consider any kind of universal/mandated health insurance reform for adults until his second term and only if it worked for kids.

    In my situation, I pay over $16,000 + $1,000 deductible + $3,000 in co-pay through my state risk pool - my premiums go up twice a year at double the going rate of increase for regular health insurance.

    A first good step for congress would be to pass legislation banning the health insurance industry from excluding people with pre-existing conditions. That action alone, would cut my cost by more than half.

    Parent

    Hillary had her chance and botched it (1.00 / 2) (#56)
    by StatMan89 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:04:18 PM EST
    I'm still amazed that people push Hillary as the guru on healthcare after she botched the biggest chance she'll ever have to push through significant reform. Hillary has never favored single-payer, which is the only solution that will work. Obama at least favored it in the past (look up the YouTube clip), so maybe he'll respond to the growing grassroots single-payer movement. And single-payer is actually smart politics. If the Democrats were to push through single-payer people would decide they liked it and it would have the biggest political impact since Social Security. The Republicans would be in the wilderness for decades.

    If you think Obama will adopt Single Payer (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by shoephone on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:37:45 PM EST
    you are living in a dreamworld. He has no such intentions.

    Parent
    And you know this how? (none / 0) (#83)
    by TChris on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:07:09 AM EST
    Verbatim from Obama's website: (none / 0) (#86)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:25:39 AM EST
    Obama Has Consistently Said That If We Were Starting From Scratch, He Would Support A Single Payer System, But Now We Need To Build On The System We Have

    (Bolding mine, for empahisis.)

    I think that makes it pretty clear that his intentions on health care reform do not include a single payer plan. 'Cause, um, we're not "starting from scratch".

    Parent

    That tells me (none / 0) (#105)
    by TChris on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 10:05:49 AM EST
    that he prefers single payer and if that's the plan Congress sends him, he'll sign it.  But I think everyone agrees that Congress lacks the political will today to go with a single payer plan.  As the country begins to move in that direction, single payer might become an option.  But if McCain is in office, it won't be.

    Parent
    "If at first tou don't succeed, (none / 0) (#76)
    by BrianJ on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:45:01 PM EST
    "Destroy all evidence that you tried."  It's a funny joke but if you follow this philosophy in the real world, you're cruising for a bruising.

    An example:  General Motors created the EV1, the first electric car to be sold to consumers.  It wasn't perfect.  It had significant problems with its construction, limited battery life, and the other faults that come with a newly designed car.  At about the same time, Toyota decided to start working on its first hybrid vehicle, the Prius.

    GM famously killed the electric car and is frantically trying to develop a new one for 2010, the Volt.  Toyota has sold a million Priuses worldwide and is about to introduce its third generation of hybrids.

    Toyota is making tens of billions of dollars a year and is now the world's leading automaker;  it is half a step behind GM to lead in the US market.

    GM lost $15,500,000,000 last quarter and $70,000,000,000 over the last four years.  It has one foot in bankruptcy court and one on a banana peel, with devastating consequences for the US economy.

    So maybe you shouldn't be quite so dismissive of those who at least f***ing TRIED to solve a societal problem, hmmm?

    Parent

    Ok, you're basing a mention of single-payer (none / 0) (#79)
    by Valhalla on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:28:47 PM EST
    in a YouTube video as the evidence that Obama will do something about it?

    When his stated health care plan during the primaries was not even as complete as Hillary's to begin with, and he's made little mention of it since, and just 'agreed' to put the vaguest, least committed to anything language in the platform?

    I guess some people do really hear only what they want to.

    Parent

    How about if they do not (none / 0) (#3)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:47:42 PM EST
    pass health care, they will not be in office next term?

    Unfortunately, (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by stxabuela on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:20:47 PM EST
    The closest the Dems can get to "throwing the bums" out are sternly-worded letters.

    Parent
    TChris, are you satisfied (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:13:12 PM EST
    with this?

    With how this plank is shaping up? (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by TChris on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:54:29 PM EST
    I would prefer a single payer, Medicare-type system, but that wasn't the plan proposed by either Democratic candidate.  I'm in agreement with this Krugman column: work to get the best achievable plan right now, and try to improve it later. Single payer won't sell, and that's why neither Clinton nor Obama tried to sell it, although both have at various times suggested that they would favor single payer in an ideal world.

    In a different context, I heard Obama recently say "the perfect is the enemy of the good" (quoting Voltaire, I think).  I share that pragmatic approach to most issues, including health care.



    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by CoralGables on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 06:53:02 PM EST
    Many people are under the assumption that a true universal system was proposed by one of the candidates. As you have stated that wasn't the case. I didn't much care for either Democratic candidate's health care proposal but accept that it's going to be a slow moving process that will make some progress with a Democrat in the White House and none at all with a republican in the White House.

    Parent
    Actually (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:04:42 PM EST
    The Clinton/Edwards plan offered a clear path to single-payer, provided the public option it created proved to be more efficient than private insurance (as progressives believe it will).

    Obama's plan, because of the lack of universality, simply doesn't offer that path.

    So I mean, I'm not sure how you define "progress," but it kinda bugs me that in the name of change we picked the candidate who wants to change things less.

    Parent

    Not sure I totally agree (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by CoralGables on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:34:55 PM EST
    Until insurance companies are eliminated from the mix, it will never be universal...it will be big business. A clear path is rarely as clear as it appears on paper.

    I do believe one candidate's plan was minimally better than the other, but after 20 years arguing for perfection I'm beginning to be a settler for any progress. Between the Dems or the GOP in the White House, for me it's a no brainer. Once we are in I'll start seeking perfection again.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:42:42 PM EST
    Since eliminating the insurance companies by fiat is a political nonstarter and always will be, the only alternative I perceive is to create a public option that can compete with the private insurers and drive them out of business.  If the insurance companies can't survive on a level playing field, it will be hard for anyone to argue they should be missed.

    The mandates in the Clinton/Edwards plan are really important and it's a setback for the UHC cause that Obama chose to demagogue them in the primary.  Even Obama supporters like Ezra Klein agree that he was flat wrong on that issue.  We start an Obama Administration in a hole as a result of that short-sighted decision.

    I'll still take Obama over McCain, obviously, but it's going to take a lot more political courage than he's shown to date to actually move the ground on this issue.  A whole lot more.

    Parent

    you don't even have to get rid (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:44:08 PM EST
    of the insurance companies to have a universal single payer system.

    You just implement something like medicare for all.  Medicare doesn't cover everything.  Peple who are on medicare now currently havet the OPTION of buying additonal medigap insurance from for profit insurance cmpanies.  Universal coveral with a single payer could work the same way.

    Employers who want to atract the best employees, could offer to pay for the additonal coverage.  Individuals who want more than the standard coverage provided by the universal system could buy the additional coverage just like medicare patients can do now.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:50:30 PM EST
    Medicare is a single payer system. No one thinks of it as socialism though.

    That is not part of either plan.

    Parent

    Tim - Medicare covers enough (none / 0) (#77)
    by imhotep on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:14:57 PM EST
    The premiums you pay for Medi-Gap coverage are far more than what Medicare doesn't cover.  Medi-Gap is an insurance scam.  You pay a monthly premium for insurance that covers deductibles and co-pays and end up paying MORE that the deds and co-p's.
    The same goes with Medicare Advantage Plans. Insurance companies get a gov't subsidy to provide the same coverage as Medicare plus drugs.
    Drug Plan D coverage is the only additional insurance you need on Medicare and that's only because big pharma and the pubs refused to negotiate lower drug costs.  Medicare could easily cover drugs, but the pubs won't let it. That's getting too far into, YIKES!, socialized med.

    Parent
    your assertion might be true (none / 0) (#99)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:09:56 AM EST
    if you are relatively healthy.  But, if you have health issues, not so much.  I'll check some details on my mother's expenses and get back to you.

    Besides, one of the arguments against going to single payer is that there are many people who like their existing insurance and don't want to go on a medicare-like plan.

    So, what I spoke of is OPTIONAL insurance for those who feel they want the additional coverage.

    But, for thos elike you, who feel medicare is adequate, you don't have to purchase the OPTIONAL insurance.

    Parent

    The Obama plan has that path. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ramo on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:45:53 PM EST
    The main difference between his plan and Edwards/Clinton is that Obama's "mandate" is on the back end (penalizing enrolling late with a larger premium), while the Edwards mandate is on the front end (garnishing wages, etc.).  In other words, there's an anti-free riding penalty with both plans.  But arguably, the Obama particular measure is more politically feasible.

    The key to all three plans that insures the pathway is a public insurer.

    I do think that his anti-mandate ads were counter-productive, though.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:07:26 PM EST
    The thing you refer to as Obama's "mandate" is not, in fact, a mandate.  Which is why it won't make insurance cheaper.

    Parent
    It's effectively the same thing. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ramo on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:29:08 PM EST
    The penalty's on the back end, instead of the front.

    Parent
    But it would lower the premiums for everyone (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Teresa on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:36:14 PM EST
    if the mandate was on the front end. I hope the penalty for anyone who can afford it and opts out is more than the upfront cost would be. It isn't right to give someone the same benefit who willingly opts out that you would someone who is in from the start. I don't mind helping others. To me, that's what Democrats do.

    Parent
    I like the Edwards penalty a little better. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ramo on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:42:20 PM EST
    The advantage that his penalty has is that it's less likely to be shouldered during times of financial hardship.  But I see absolutely no reason why his penalty would make the system significantly cheaper than the Obama penalty.  And the politics of the Obama penalty, which is the key question here, are likely to be easier wrt Congress.

    I just don't want the public insurer to be sacrificed over a relatively trivial matter such as this.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#68)
    by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:11:12 PM EST
    The reason is that mandating coverage at the front end lowers costs due to risk pooling.  Imposing a penalty at the back end doesn't help the risk pool because those people don't figure into the pricing ahead of time.

    Many people are under the impression that the Clinton/Edwards plan is like the Massachusetts plan where you can opt out by paying a penalty at the front end.  That would, indeed, raise the philosophical question of whether it makes a big deal whether the penalty is at the front or back end.  But that's not what it is, it is mandatory coverage, period.  Everyone is in the risk pool.

    I do not think the politics are significantly different because I just don't think there's a strong lobby of people who desperately want the right to opt out of carrying health insurance.  But regardless, for one Democrat to demagogue another on that issue is completely unacceptable.  Obama didn't just say "I think it will be harder to pass mandates," he actually told voters "mandates will be scary and worse for you than no mandates."  Do you think that's a positive message if we want to end up at single payer someday - where, I hope we agree, coverage will be quite mandatory?

    Parent

    Mechanism of mandate.. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ramo on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 04:23:04 PM EST
    I wasn't aware that Hillary clarified it to this degree.  She really said that everyone not covered is automatically signed up to the public plan?  Do you have a cite?

    If that's the case, it's an even better than I thought.  That might be worth a serious fight.

    Parent

    Regarding the ads.. (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ramo on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 04:24:07 PM EST
    As I said they were very counterproductive.  Very dumb move on the part of Obama.

    Parent
    This is a BAD assumption on your part (none / 0) (#100)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:24:52 AM EST
    If I am a healthy person and choose, under Obama's plan, to not buy insurance, I may never actually get sick or ever need healthcare.  So, I will never pay run into the backend "mandate" that you think is there.

    In fact, I think this would be the way to go.  You could save all the money you would have spent on health insurance premiums and invest it.  Hopefully, you would earn enough over time to cover the cost of insurance and the "penalty" if you ever do need to buy into the plan.  But, if you never do actually have to buy in, you have a windfall of savings and earnings over time.

    So, the effectiveness of the "penalty" for late entry into the system will only be as good as the size of the penalty.

    Parent

    It's a very BAD assumption (none / 0) (#106)
    by Bluesage on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:47:40 PM EST
    To assume that because you are now a healthy person and may never actually get sick that you will not need to buy into a health plan and you can just save all that money in case you should need it in the future. You must be very young.

    Health issues can strike anyone, anytime and when they do, they can bankrupt you in very short order.  And it's not just disease but accidents.  Being without health care because you are now healthy and may never get sick or hurt is just naive.

    Parent

    it would also be nice (none / 0) (#101)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:31:44 AM EST
    if you didn't repeat the false charge against Clinton of "garnishing" peoples wages.

    She was asked once how her plan would be administered to get everyone enrolled.  She answered that a logical place would be through work.  People could select the plan they want through work and have their payments done through payroll deductions.

    This is NOT garnishing your payroll.  It is the same way that I pay today for my employer provided insurance coverage.

    If everyone has to have insurance, no questions, then what difference does it make if your payments come from work or if they send you a bill at your home address.  Either way, you have to pay for it.

    To call it garnishing your wages sounds like you are being forced to pay for something that you otherwise wouldn't have to pay for.  Which would not be true under the Clinton plan.

    Parent

    "in the name of change (none / 0) (#94)
    by weltec2 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:40:40 AM EST
    we picked the candidate who wants to change things less."

    This strikes at the very heart of this election for me. We had an enormous opportunity, and instead we chose vague slogans and jingles and even now as the convention approaches people refuse to face the obvious as Barack backpedals toward the right.


    Parent

    Well, just because it wasn't single payer (none / 0) (#38)
    by Teresa on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 06:56:11 PM EST
    didn't mean it wasn't universal. Everyone was covered under the plan you sort of mention.

    Parent
    Disagree (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:33:25 PM EST
    UHC implies single payer.  No Insurance companies, period.  Both plans were a compromise from UHC. Socialized medicine is not that popular in America, even though we made a concession for retirees with medicare.

    IMO, we would need 60 senators on board with UHC in order to have a shot. Not likely to happen, even if we pick up another 10 or 12 Senators.


    Parent

    It may imply it but it just means (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Teresa on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:00:49 PM EST
    everyone is covered, however they decide to do that. I also prefer single payer. Sometimes I think our country is so backwards and selfish compared to other countries. I can't believe we still don't make health care available to anyone who needs it.

    Parent
    OK (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:23:00 PM EST
    For me single payer is the only way to go and f' the insurance cos. They will make it up.

    I believe that the Democratic position in this is to get to UHC, however we can. The difference between Hillary, and Obama have the same end result in mind, UHC.

    Not so easy to get there.

    Parent

    That pragmatic approach only works (none / 0) (#50)
    by Valhalla on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:34:37 PM EST
    if you have a comprehensive, well-laid out plan in advance.  Not just any change, or any improvement gets you down the road to the ultimate ideal.

    Parent
    Platform (none / 0) (#27)
    by Miri on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:19:35 PM EST
    Is there a more worthless piece of paper than a party platform?

    Nobody reads it.

    Nobody cares.

    It never ever influences how the party governs.

    It is basically a santa wish list.

    here is the link to the Wyden story (none / 0) (#36)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 06:41:27 PM EST
    Financial Analysis of Wyden Plan

    Reading attachment A (or B?) the funding (none / 0) (#39)
    by Teresa on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:03:24 PM EST
    would be through a tax based on income? Is that how you read it? I like that but any plan endorsed by Bob Corker would have to worry me!

    Parent
    Corker...understand how you feel (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:37:09 AM EST
    As I understand it --there is more than one funding stream -employers, the government and individuals would all be taxed on a sliding scale

    Parent
    As long as Insurance comanies are involved (none / 0) (#48)
    by VelvetElvis on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:12:54 PM EST
    it's full of fail.

    This is a snub to Conyers and others supporting HR-676 which sets up a single payer system.  Insurance companies can't be part of the solution when they are at the heart of the problem.


    Here's a deal (none / 0) (#88)
    by bluejane on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 01:59:11 AM EST
    If not already mentioned, California is currently working on a single payer bill SB 840 that already passed the Legislature once and was vetoed by Governor Schwarzenegger (with almost no commercial news media coverage). Like the Energizer Bunny, single payer keeps coming back; the public is beginning to learn more about it despite the lack of corporate news coverage, and eventually California will have an enlightened Governor to sign it.

    Meanwhile, as to Hillary's mandated universal health care plan, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the shoe has not yet dropped regarding the "mandate windfall profits" which health insurers will reap when they sell millions of high-profit policies to relatively young/well consumers who will be forced to buy them. If Hillary doesn't have a "secret plan" up her sleeve, she ought to -- to form an alliance in Congress to engage the insurance industry in negotiations, saying to them, okay boys and girls, you can have these massive windfall profits, or part of them, if you open your books quarterly and agree to use the lion's share of these profits to cover the low income margins" [instead of sandbagging the federal government already deeply in debt to pay for commercial insurance premiums] "and you agree to a reasonable set of consumer protections including caps on premiums, co-pays and deductibles, while allowing insurance companies a reasonable (thin) profit margin across the entire adult population of the United States, using the "mandate windfall profit" as a bargaining chip to set up a commercial insurance system that functions in essence like single-payer but remains commercially oriented similar to the system in Germany, like a well regulated and self-sustaining public utility.

    If the insurers balk at this deal, we can say, "Okay we're gonna mosie over and take a close look at single payer," using single payer as an implied threat to force the other end of the deal -- the stick -- while the carrot for insurers is the mandate's financial windfall.

    I'd like to see this kind of frame of thinking begin to emerge.

    Just so we're clear (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Steve M on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:15:03 AM EST
    Not one single solitary person would have been forced to purchase private insurance under the Clinton/Edwards plan.

    If all the private insurers insisted on offering policies only at "windfall profits" levels, then surely the public Medicare-like option created by the plan would offer consumers a far more cost-effective alternative.

    Parent

    Two-tiers (none / 0) (#95)
    by bluejane on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:43:16 AM EST
    I'm glad you mentioned the bifurcated structure of their plans. To qualify for Medicare-like (but not really Medicare) plan will require showing of low income, no? Thus these optional plans are likely to attarct the poorest and highest risk people and swamp that system, no? The advantage of universal mandate is "everybody in," no?

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#96)
    by Steve M on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:54:20 AM EST
    Everyone is eligible for the public plan.  It's a pure matter of choice.

    Parent
    Sitting here in Brooklyn, NY (none / 0) (#91)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:52:54 AM EST
    I know CA is trying to pass a health plan. It may not be getting the full PR it needs, but it's getting enough that many are aware. Personally, I think anyone who's concerned about certain issues has an ear to the ground for them. They could have the newscast on in the background, but when they hear an issue even for a few seconds, they pay attention. Not sure if a smaller states than CA would have made national news on this, but anyone living in smaller states that have been trying for it, should be hitting the national media for coverage. WA comes to mind :)

    Heh, we need less gossip and more issue reporting. Eh? We should from our news sources.

    as far as Hillary's secret plan? google. Krugman may come up in your search  ;)

    Parent

    Hello, Brooklyn (none / 0) (#97)
    by bluejane on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 04:22:52 AM EST
    Used to live on West End Ave across the river. On news coverage I meant in state of CA where I'm involved in grassroots lobbying effort on SB 840 single payer bill. We kept track of every syllable and hardly anything was said or published in CA while the bill was in legislature (or currently while in legislature again) except when it was proposed and when it was vetoed and those reports were exceedingly snide, quoting people who believed it was "Soviet-style govt-run socialized medicine," etc. So we've developed a sort of underground communications system on SP in CA (Cal Nurses union, Michael Moore and his film "SiCKO," public events with celebs around the state, etc). I'm not as well acquainted how commercial newsmedia plays single payer across the country. Sometimes it pops up in business pages or a column, if one pricks up one's ears as you say. Corporate newsmedia has too much conflict of interest to report objectively/fairly on SP, there's that OCEAN OF CASH generated by HI industry they're all swimming in. They can't lose that.

    I tried Googling Krugman, no luck on any reference by him to Hill's "secret plan," a term I used half in jest as to her possibly forming an alliance in Congress to negotiate with insurance industry as I suggested in my comment. Maybe I'm up a tree on negotiation idea but this was what I meant. If she had such a plan (which I hope she does) I would expect her not to spill beans before election. Did Krugman suggest something similar?

    Parent

    Suggestion box: We need a glossary (none / 0) (#93)
    by bluejane on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:26:26 AM EST
    at top of healthcare posts like this to define terms so everybody is on the same page. Like "UHC," single payer, socialized medicine,  universal mandate, etc.  Quite a few people are under the impression that universal health insurance, while it used to imply single-payer years ago, still means that but now it means a commercial system. This switcheroo came about with the adoption of the Romney/MA "universal health care" system, a very cunning maneuver by the insurance industry to confuse the public into thinking "universal health care" championed by many Democratic candidates means a non-commercial system when that is not what it means at all, although we could get there -- or halfway there in a hybrid system -- as I argue in my comment above.

    The full term for what Hillary is offering should be "universally mandated commercial health insurance" (not "care" but "insurance"; not "UHC" but UMCHI). Without significant regulation in the public interest such a system will be a nightmare. Altho Hillary talks about regulation she doesn't talk about how she will prevail upon insurers to let themselves be regulated to the extent needed. We know how much corporations hate being regulated -- a political nightmare (and makes govt/Dems looks like bad cops). It'll be nearly impossible unless insurers have an incentive to cooperate with regulation, just as public utilities do -- and they make a bloody fortune as any investor knows (I describe this model in my comment above about the "mandate windfall"). I half-jokingly said Hillary (whom I supported in the primaries) might have a "secret plan" to negotiate a deal with the insurance industry using the mandate windfall profits the insurance companies will make as an incentive/bargaining chip -- but that is only a hope.

    SF has a health plan (none / 0) (#103)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:41:00 AM EST
    It's a start and it is funded through fees paid by employers