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McCain/Palin Ape Bush/Rove Political Tactics

Proving yet again that John McCain is merely an extension of the George W. Bush Republican Party, McCain releases this noxious ad:

The Obama response:

"It is shameful and downright perverse for the McCain campaign to use a bill that was written to protect young children from sexual predators as a recycled and discredited political attack against a father of two young girls - a position that his friend Mitt Romney also holds. Last week, John McCain told Time magazine he couldn't define what honor was. Now we know why."

Indeed. On all levels, McCain/Palin is Bush's Third Term.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Ras Tracker: Obama By 1 | Wednesday Open Thread >
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  • Display: Sort:
    hmm. (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:13:50 AM EST
    What does this ad say about whether McCain thinks his bounce was enough?

    I think it is just another day (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:16:19 AM EST
    They can have the conversation on this, rather than issues, and that alone is probably why it is worth it to the campaign.

    Parent
    Bingo.... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:21:23 AM EST
    easier to slop around in the mud than to come up with some ideas on the 2-ton elephants in the room that the candidates will do anything not to seriously talk about.

    Debt
    Energy
    Foriegn Occupations
    Drug War
    Prison Population

    The next dodge is only a 30 second spot away...

    Parent

    A good point (none / 0) (#13)
    by eric on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:24:45 AM EST
    here we are, reacting to the outrageous ad!!!.

    They just keep tossing it out there.

    Parent

    I'm comfortable with my reaction (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:35:08 AM EST
    McCain/Palin = Bush's Third Term.

    Parent
    What does APE in the heading mean? (none / 0) (#128)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:30:46 AM EST
    I'm trying to figure out the term "Ape".

    McCain/Palin APE Bush/Cheney.

    That's the first time I have ever seen the term and really can't grasp how it means "equals".


    Parent

    aping someone is (none / 0) (#131)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:31:35 AM EST
    mimicing them

    Parent
    As in ... (none / 0) (#148)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:50:21 AM EST
    "monkey see, monkey do."

    Parent
    Ahh.. (none / 0) (#174)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:55:04 PM EST
    Never heard that. A teacher got in a lot of trouble during the primaries for calling kids who were climbing in her trees "monkeys", maybe Aping is a term I don't need to know.

    Parent
    There's no negative connotation to it (none / 0) (#179)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:13:27 PM EST
    Look up "ape" v. It means mimic, imitate.

    Good crossword puzzle word.

    Parent

    Not taking exception (none / 0) (#191)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 02:08:28 PM EST
    Just doubt it's anything I would want to use myself when comparing people to people.


    Parent
    Please don't be cowed (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 03:20:28 PM EST
    by the Obama "everything is racist" trope we saw in the primaries. We can't allow him to make perfectly innocent words and usages off limits.

    Parent
    No negative ... (none / 0) (#202)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 05:16:12 PM EST
    connotation at all.

    But it's taken from the belief that apes will mimic others.

    The word is so much in the lexicon with this meaning that I doubt that many people even think much about the relation of this meaning to the animal.

    There are a lot of animal-based verbs.  Badger, ape, lionize, fish, monkey, crow, dog and so on.

    Parent

    Bush third term is not selling (none / 0) (#151)
    by Prabhata on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:57:18 AM EST
    Few people that I know who are open to vote for McCain believe that he will be like Bush.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#168)
    by Jellabean on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:36:18 PM EST
    And it kind of makes it look like we have no arguments against McCain. Bush isn't running, its stupid to run against someone who isn't on the ticket. I was never a believing in voting "against" someone anyway. You need to have a reason to vote FOR someone.

    Parent
    Some polls suggest otherwise (none / 0) (#169)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:37:25 PM EST
    including the NBC WSJ poll from yesterday.

    Parent
    Yes, if you need to pull out (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by eric on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:17:38 AM EST
    the sex education to kids ad, you are acting like you are behind.

    Parent
    Well, the bill says wha tit says... (none / 0) (#175)
    by Jellabean on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:03:03 PM EST
    I'm not quite sure why it's so unimaginably unfair to look at what the bill actually said, and what it actually did, as opposed to what Obama said he wanted it to do. I'm being told to judge Obama, once again, on his good intentions. (Recall that when discussing his years as a community organizer, his surrogates only talk about what he went into the inner city to do, not what he actually achieved.) We're told Obama only wanted the unobjectionable good-touch bad-touch discussion, not the actual discussion of sexually-transmitted diseases and how they're spread that the bill directed to begin in kindergarten. If Obama was bothered by that provision, he could have amended the bill to take it out.

    I'm sure President Bush intended to find WMDs in Iraq. I'm sure he intended to have a Hurricane Katrina response for New Orleans that ran like a well-oiled machine. I'm sure he's had good intentions every day he's been in office. But those good intentions aren't enough for his liberal critics; I don't see why Obama can't be held accountable for the bills he actually voted to pass.

    I mean, it's not like he didn't know he could vote "present."

    Parent

    I am glad that this (none / 0) (#197)
    by eric on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 03:07:06 PM EST
    was exposed before Obama became President!  He wants to teach children about sex before they can read!  He must be a creepy perv.  Who would have thought?

    Parent
    Nate at 538 suggested that (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by JoeA on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:18:06 AM EST
    the GOP internal tracking poll numbers show a much smaller bounce than that suggested by Gallup etc,  so there may be an element of that.

    OTOH,  it just keeps them setting the agenda and Obama on the back foot.

    Parent

    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:15:53 AM EST
    What does this ad say about whether McCain thinks.

    Parent
    McCain thinks ... (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by santarita on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:35:48 AM EST
    distorting the record in order to appeal to the evangelicals and hockey moms is the way to win.

    Parent
    Who knew? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:21:45 AM EST
    At least now we know McCain favors recycling.

    If I remember right (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:22:44 AM EST
    what Obama supported, and what many politicians support, is the concept of "age-appropriate sex education" that can begin as early as kindergarten.

    Obviously, kindergarteners don't have a particular need to know about birth control or where babies come from, but even at that age kids ought to know their basic anatomy and have an understanding of the concept of "private parts," if for no other reason than to be able to recognize and report sexual abuse.

    It would obviously be a tragedy for kids to get exploited because no one bothered to teach them that certain behavior is wrong and should be reported.  But of course, it's much easier to demagogue the issue and call it "sex education in kindergarten."

    My kids had some "sex ed" (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    in Kinder. It was mostly about germs and blood and treating others with fairness. It did not even get into body parts (we do that at home of course).

    However, it laid the foundation for future conversations and was a part of the sex ed curriculum.

    This ad is so misleading it isn't even funny.

    Parent

    Our best friends (none / 0) (#19)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:29:45 AM EST
    have a 2-year old daughter who knows the word "vulva."  Now that's what I'd call ahead of the curve on sex education.

    Our 2-year old, meanwhile, is still mostly in the "daddy" stage.  Her word for Sarah Palin is "sass-sass," which is what she calls anyone who wears glasses.

    Parent

    When they learn the word for (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:59:39 AM EST
    nose, eyes, foot...just include vulva, penis, etc.

    It itsn't the big deal we grownups make it oout to be.

    I have a great book "Speaking of Sex" by a nuse sex educator Meg Hinkling (IIRC). She argues that teaching kids about sex in a scientific way is the very best way to innoculate them against pedophiles.

    She has been working in the field for decades and has never once met anyone who was molested that felt comfortable using the words for sex and their genetailia.

    She argues that parents have a hard time talking about sex with their kids because as a culture we are stuck in the junior high school phase of sexual development.

    I agree with that, but I think the GOP is a bit below Junior High and the dems are a bit above (but still afraid of the GOP making fun of them for acting more grown-up about the issue)

    Parent

    My children called their genitals by their (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:21:47 AM EST
    Gray's Anatomy names as soon as they could say them.  That isn't sex and it isn't sex education.  That's simply education.  What you do with genitals that has to do with orgasms is sex and teaching them about that is sex education.

    Parent
    My first reaction (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:25:30 AM EST
    was like "what do they call the genitals on Gray's Anatomy?"  Which goes to show you that I am not immune from the overall dumbing down of America, not at all.

    Parent
    Very Sensible Distinction (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by daring grace on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:27:40 AM EST
    I wish common sense like this was more apparent in the public discourse of this.

    Parent
    It certainly doesn't help when (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:32:28 AM EST
    John McCain puts out an ad claiming that teaching our most vulnerable children to protect themselves from human predators constitutes sex education.  Makes me sick to my stomach.

    Parent
    it is sex ed, actually. (none / 0) (#138)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:40:33 AM EST
    It's foundational for learning what the parts do.

    In my family, we call it body science, and broaden it to include the whole body...sounds like your family is similar.

    Parent

    The McCain ad though (none / 0) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:03:59 PM EST
    uses the term sex ed in the same fashion that the Christian right uses it.  As if you teach kids about their bodies they are all going to start having sex with each other because we gave them the idea.

    Parent
    I know. But it isn't what the reality (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:19:38 PM EST
    of sex ed is in the earlier grades. Such scare tactics are a disgrace.

    Parent
    Just this morning (none / 0) (#198)
    by BernieO on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 03:16:09 PM EST
    I heard a local announcer on the our public radio station do an ad for the Vulva South dealer. I am not kidding. Do you think kindergarteners are allowed to go in that dealership? And what do those cars look like, anyway? The mind reels.

    Parent
    was wondering about that (none / 0) (#42)
    by souvarine on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:44:31 AM EST
    According to TPM the bill stated:
    Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV.

    It is unremarkable for children to learn to report inappropriate adult behaviour, but adding STDs goes quite a bit further. The implication of the ad is extreme, but the "report sexual abuse" defense does not appear to be accurate.

    Parent

    Early grades teach about swaping blood (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:04:51 AM EST
    and body fluids (not sexually- think scrapes and kissing) and about germs. No more. It's a foundation that will be built upon later.

    ...and that TMP story shows exerpts not the whole program. Kinda hard to evaluate the whole program on two paragraphs.

    Anyhow, my kids went through a similar program. The early grades' education are entirely age appropriate.

    Parent

    actually (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:05:59 AM EST
    research show that kids that know the words for parts of their body and know about sex are less likely to be molested.

    Parent
    But you have to agree (none / 0) (#50)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:48:02 AM EST
    There is pretty much no way that bill was meant to teach little kids about sex. That part is a distortion (pretty obviously).

    Parent
    But that language only says (none / 0) (#53)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:49:40 AM EST
    that IF you're offering a "comprehensive sex education" course, you must include instruction on STDs.

    Obviously no school offers "comprehensive sex education" in kindergarten, so the point strikes me as moot.

    Parent

    Of course it's moot (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by eric on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:57:29 AM EST
    and it's ridiculous.  Nobody seriously believes that Obama would want to offer sex education to young children.  These people, however, thrive on tossing the absurd out there.  Support health care for all? You're a socialist!  Support reasonable controls on the sale of weapons?  You are anti-second amendment and want to confiscate guns!  Believe in the concept of diplomacy?  You want to negotiate with terrorists!

    We've heard it all before.  As BTD says, this is just Bush all over again, Bush's third term.

    Parent

    Interpreted that way (none / 0) (#66)
    by Manuel on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:59:23 AM EST
    Doesn't this mean that if you provide an age appropriate Kindergaten sexual abuse class, you must also provide information about STDs?  That would seem to act as a barrier to age appropriate sexual abuse instruction.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#88)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:11:22 AM EST
    Without seeing the actual bill, I would certainly think that "comprehensive sex education" refers to something much different from a limited, age-appropriate lesson.

    I mean, at some point common sense has to come into play.  Does it seem likely to you that any normal person would support a bill to teach kindergarteners about STDs?  So absent something a little more conclusive than what we've seen, my assumption is that the bill called for no such thing.

    I'd also note that the quote above, which the commenter indicated was from "TPM's reporting," was actually a snippet supplied by the McCain campaign.  So who knows how misleading they're being.

    Parent

    I believe it is wording to prevent abstinence-only (none / 0) (#147)
    by Realleft on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:49:24 AM EST
    education when things progress to that level.

    And I believe that the bill deferred to local school boards and required that schools allow parents to opt out.

    Obama should let his outrage show as the father of two young daughters that such lies are what pass for Republican messaging.  How dare they put this ad out there!

    Parent

    misleading (none / 0) (#152)
    by souvarine on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:59:51 AM EST
    My own reaction to the McCain ad was that it was stupid to object to teaching kids to recognize inappropriate behaviour, and if that is the only defense then I'm happy to pound the table. I quoted from TPM because I assume they took the trouble to check their reporting in defense of Obama.

    But apparently the Illinois K-12 sex ed standards already covered inappropriate behaviour and the bill went beyond that. If that is the case then I would prefer to have an accurate defense at hand, I don't know what that defense is because I am not familiar with the substance underlying the charge in this ad. If I'm stuck with "the legal interpretation is x, y, z" then I'll probably go with pounding the table.

    Again, I don't have any problem going with the "Have you no honor, sir!" defense, but if there is a substantive way to shoot down the ad I would prefer to use that.

    Parent

    Who here would want a male teacher telling (none / 0) (#160)
    by Miserere mei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:20:57 PM EST
    your daughter where a baby come from?

    I think at that age it is up to the parents to decide what and when any kind of sex education is taught.

    Obama is innocent in this and his response does not tell the whole story.

    Per ABC:

    The criticism of Obama on sex education stems from his work in the Illinois state senate on legislation which would have taken the state's entire sex education standards, which related to 6th through 12th grade, and applied them to all of K-12.

    The legislation, which was never enacted, included an "opt out" provision for parents.
    ...
    Obama was asked his position on sex education and he mimicked an attack that was launched on him in his 2004 Senate campaign by Republican Alan Keyes.

    "Barack Obama supports teaching sex education to kindergarteners," said Obama mimicking Keyes' distinctive style of speech. "Which -- I didn't know what to tell him (laughter)."

    "But it's the right thing to do," Obama continued, "to provide age-appropriate sex education, science-based sex education in schools."
    ...
    When Obama's campaign was asked last year by ABC News to explain what kind of sex education Obama considers "age appropriate" for kindergarteners, the Obama campaign pointed to an Oct. 6, 2004 story from the Daily Herald.

    "'Nobody's suggesting that kindergartners are going to be getting information about sex in the way that we think about it,'" Obama told the Daily Herald. "'If they ask a teacher 'where do babies come from,' that providing information that the fact is that it's not a stork is probably not an unhealthy thing.

    ABC  Link

    Obama goes against your "where babies come from" objection.

    It is not surprising that this bill did not pass all the way to being law. At age 5 parents are perfectly capable of teaching their children what they think, not what a stranger thins. is appropriate sex education. If the school district want to send parents information to help them teach their children that is one thing but to help  try to pass a low that puts it in the hands of teachers is not appropriate.

    Who here would want a male teacher telling your daughter where a baby come from? Any hands?

    Parent

    Should I be offended by your implication?

    Because I think I am.

    Parent

    That's fine if you are (none / 0) (#177)
    by Miserere mei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:08:56 PM EST
    But you are not the father of my daughter.

    Is it OK if I would be offended if a male teacher talked to my daughter about where babies come from? It is my daughter. Or do I relinquish that role when she is in school? I don't think so. In fact I have responsibilities with my daughter to protect her from hearing things I don't want her to hear when she is not in school. At 5 years old there are certain things I don't want her to hear from men or women. Is that OK with you?

    And let's not forget here that not all teachers are fine outstanding citizens when it comes to their conduct with children. I'm certainly not saying this is you but we all know that there have been more than a few perverts in among the ranks of teachers so we must be extra vigilant with our children.

    So don't be offended - it's my daughter, not yours.

    Parent

    Under This Bill, Your Daughter Would Be Taught (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by daring grace on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 02:25:32 PM EST
    by whomever you want.

    The bill, had it become law, would have enabled parents to keep their children out of the classes.

    snip:

    "The measure said schools offering sex education must include medically accurate information appropriate to the age of the students. The lessons were to cover the consequences of unprotected sex, the effects of various forms of contraception and the option of abstinence.

    "It also would have allowed parents to pull their children from sex education classes if they wished."

    I think these days this is pretty common with these kinds of classes.

    Parent

    It's not like teachers (none / 0) (#200)
    by BernieO on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 03:29:27 PM EST
    are going to describe intercourse. Just that the baby is growing in a special place in the mother's abdomen(and making sure the child knows it is not in the stomach with all that food,a common misconception). When I was a preschool teacher I had kids younger than five ask things like that. I now teach science classes and the subject of mammals feeding their young milk from their bodies is part of the curriculum. And let's not forget teaching about the bees part - cross pollination. That is also part of sex ed.  I find that kids this young get really silly and embarrassed over anything involving the potty but usually do not blink an eye over these kinds of "sex topics".

    On the other hand it is not unheard of for schools to have inappropriate sex ed. A few years ago there was an uproar over a school district in Ohio that was teaching fourth grade kids how to put condoms on cucumbers. There was understandably quite an uproar about that. And this was not a community where there was a problem with kids that young having intercourse.

    Parent

    Correction: (none / 0) (#161)
    by Miserere mei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:22:59 PM EST
    Obama is NOT innocent in this...

    Parent
    Huh (none / 0) (#165)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:27:25 PM EST
    So telling kids that it's not from a stork is the same thing as teaching them the mechanics of sex?

    He says, plain as day, "age-appropriate sex education."  Your objection is unfounded.

    Parent

    You said: (none / 0) (#180)
    by Miserere mei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:15:21 PM EST
    "Obviously, kindergarteners don't have a particular need to know about birth control or where babies come from".

    I said he went against your objection and he does.

    Parent

    Oh please (none / 0) (#187)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:28:41 PM EST
    The difference between explaining where babies actually come from, and merely saying that they don't come from a stork, is patently obvious.  Cut out the sophistry, it's annoying.

    Parent
    The bill didn't pass (2.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Miserere mei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 02:09:28 PM EST
    so it was no doubt unpopular. Probably a bunch of parents like myself called and emailed that we didn't want public teachers teaching our 5 year olds anything anything about sex or where babies come from or about inappropriate touching.

    That's my right with my daughter not yours. If you want virtual strangers talking to your daughter or future daughter about such things that is your choice. But as long as it is in a school where my children go you would have to fight me and others to have that happen.

    Like I said if the school wants to send parents tips on such matters no problem. But it ends there.

    Obama was wrong on shepherding this bill. fortunately If he were to become President he would thankfully have no say on sex education in schools. but it is good to know where he is coming from on the subject. One wonders if that is what he would want for his own daughters.

    Parent

    You really don't get (none / 0) (#195)
    by CST on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 02:36:35 PM EST
    The part about being able to opt out.

    No one would force anyone's kid to sit through anything.

    And frankly, I find the insinuation about his daughters insulting.

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#196)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 02:51:42 PM EST
    So now it's not about teaching kids where babies come from, now you don't even think kids should be taught enough to know about inappropriate touching.  It's a moot point for me, as my daughter will know about these things long before she gets sent off to school.  But for kids who aren't taught enough by their parents to recognize inappropriate touching, they certainly need to find out from somewhere.

    I'm glad you cut out the silly arguments, and got right down to the heart of it and admitted that you don't think kids should be taught how to recognize and report sexual assault when it happens, unless their parents choose to teach them.  You have every right to go down to the local school board meeting and advocate for that stance.  I consider it backwards, and I believe no child should get sexually assaulted and potentially messed up mentally and emotionally for life, just because their parents felt too squeamish to teach them the basics about anatomy and what you shouldn't let a stranger do to you.  But you have your daughter, and I have mine.

    Parent

    Yeah I have my daughter (none / 0) (#204)
    by Miserere mei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 08:32:16 PM EST
    and you are not sharp enough in reading my posts to know that I teach her what she needs to know. But whatever, you are just the typical poster who tries to be cute and win arguments. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I find your type a waste of time.

    Let me end with a political reality. McCain's accusation in this case was not false. Obama did want to teach children about certain sexual matters before they can read. That's a fact as ABC's report showed and Obama's own words showed it to in the article.  

    Now what was false was Obama's response in saying it was a bill to protect children. He never mentioned the other part of the bill. He hid the other part of the bill and did not make clear that what McCain's ad said was in fact true. He lied to people by omitting the totality of the bill. His response was intended to make people believe the bill was only about what he said it was. In fact you and a whole bunch of suckers in this thread bought what he said hook, line, and sinker and then discovered via ABC that what he was telling you was false. But you like being lied to. Whatever floats your boat.

    Parent

    Karl Rove's (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:23:21 AM EST
    fingerprintas are written all over this.

    Let's face it, the John McCain of 2000 is dead and this ad is pissing on his grave.

    That was obvious when he beat Mitt (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:26:05 AM EST
    To take down Romney he Mormon-baited, and then outright led about what Romney said on "time tables" all of the press even Fox called McCain on it, and he kept right on doing it, John McCain is now a liar and frankly even if the press does its job he's just going to keep on lying-- its worse than Bush, he at least claims he was "misinterpeted" Maverick naw he's cavalier, with the truth at least.

    Parent
    The John McCain of 2000... (none / 0) (#11)
    by cosbo on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:24:07 AM EST
    Lost.

    Parent
    Yet, it is being propped up (none / 0) (#17)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:26:55 AM EST
    for this election like some horrific presidential version of "Weekend at Bernie's"

    Parent
    The 2000 John (none / 0) (#21)
    by rooge04 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:31:30 AM EST
    McCain never existed. His Maverick image is completely made up and supported by the media. He's the same old right winger now that he was then.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#30)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:37:40 AM EST
    The 2000 John McCain ran a pretty dirty phone-banking campaign in Michigan, as I recall.

    People have such sympathy for him over the sliming in South Carolina that history has sort of forgotten that he knew how to get down in the gutter himself.

    Parent

    point taken (none / 0) (#82)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:06:36 AM EST
    changes the dynamic of the coverage (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:33:17 AM EST
    smart move to question his honor.  It will move the topic away from Palin and shift to whether or not O is unpatriotic for questioning the honor of a man who served 5 hostile years as a POW. The commercial is not honorable and O will win this one.  Obama should come out and endorse the lack of honor comment, that is more presidential than backing down from it.

    Obama's problem in my opinion is that he looks and sounds presidential abroad but needs some William Jefferson in him for his smaller venues.  He needs to relax, he is obviously struggling from the excitement and awe over Palin and it shows.  

    Sarah Palin will not self implode but she will dim when she is on her own.  I don't think she can triangulate well (Obama is still light years behind HRC in that regard) and that will be the achilles heal for the right.  Obama will outshine McCain and Palin will fade.

    Too bad people don't realize it isn't Palin (3.00 / 1) (#76)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:02:59 AM EST
    running for president....talk about dimming...where is biden?

    Parent
    Where is Biden? (5.00 / 0) (#92)
    by nycstray on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:14:35 AM EST
    Well, yesterday he was out repeating the pig/lipstick phrase. Not sure about today  ;)

    Parent
    Lipstick has become the new "word" (5.00 / 0) (#134)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:35:23 AM EST
    I saw a short clip of some man saying something like "it doesn't matter how much lipstick you put on it..." yesterday, as well.

    Obama set this up for himself. His behavior toward Hillary Clinton has not been forgotten.


    Parent

    If I have the pattern right (5.00 / 0) (#143)
    by nycstray on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:44:27 AM EST
    today is pushback outrage day. We should see a new line soon.

    What I'm afraid of is the McCain camp eventually revealing this pattern. They obviously took notes.

    Parent

    Actually, this is kind of making me a bit pissed (5.00 / 0) (#170)
    by Jellabean on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:39:00 PM EST
    At the Obama campaign that they think this "lipstick" meme is good politics. Reminds me of the "Hillary PERIODICALLY attacks me" booshwah. He really needs to get off the sexist attacks. No wonder women aren't voting for him.

    Parent
    McCain and thousands of pols (none / 0) (#193)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 02:19:56 PM EST
    have used the lipstick on a pig quote.  If Sarah Palin does not use the pit bull reference, there is no argument here.  It is a good analogy and it works, and it shows the lack of common sense in the McCain campaign to jump on it when he has the leverage.  It is not close enough to sexism irrespective of BO's campaign v Hillary to stick and they were trumped with the honor comment.  The press will only keep the free ride up as long as they have ACCESS, and O/Biden are all about access right now..

    Parent
    This feels more Lee Atwater ... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:35:31 AM EST
    than Karl Rove to me.

    Sure (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:37:57 AM EST
    But people do not remember Lee Atwater or associate him with George W. Bush.

    McCain/Palin = Bush's Third Term.

    Parent

    Last night (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:47:53 AM EST
    Olbermann and Maddow were spending a lot of time talking about a story that Karl Rove is apparently advising the McCain campaign even though it's been claimed otherwise.

    That is, of course, when Olbermann wasn't insisting that Maddow agree that the "lipstick on a pig" comment was an example of a false accusation of sexism, just like all those false accusations from the primaries.  The less said about that the better.

    Her show was pretty decent, by the way.  Came across a little dry to me, but my wife liked it, which is pretty handy because she doesn't follow the blogs.  Hey, the liberal talking points need to come from somewhere, unless you enjoy the total lack of message discipline that's gotten us in this mess.

    Parent

    is Maddows show (none / 0) (#101)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:16:02 AM EST
    really called "talk down to me"?

    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#115)
    by JoeA on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:21:10 AM EST
    She has a segment on the show called "Talk Me Down".

    Parent
    Haha what? (none / 0) (#116)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:21:14 AM EST
    I believe it is called "The Rachel Maddow Show."

    Parent
    Also Vintage Steve Schmidt (none / 0) (#162)
    by daring grace on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:23:40 PM EST
    McCain's "Rove Jr" used a similar ploy in a campaign against then Indiana congressman Tim Roemer 12 years ago.

    According to the New Republic site The Plank:

    "Schmidt's candidate--an Indiana state senator named Joe Zakas--was trailing in the polls when, one week before election day, Schmidt seized on Roemer's vote for a July 1991 amendment to produce a mailer labeled "Tim Roemer's Sex Survey." (One of the 60,000 Indiana 3 rd congressional district voters who received the mailer described it as "two pictures of Roemer, two gays embracing, a cover of the current Playboy and--between the gays and the Playmate--a cover of the Bible. Something bad about his values, I guess.") That amendment was overwhelmingly approved in the House, and the questions that Zakas would not say aloud at a press conference because of their "graphic sexual nature" had to pass both an ethics review board and a peer review board before they could be included in what were, after all, health surveys. "

    Parent

    Except on one level... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Dadler on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:40:12 AM EST
    ...that of public perception.  Obama needs to do a much better job of defining this, but the more this race staggers on, the more I think the entirely fabricated "maverick" label will work for a majority of American dupes.  Being a good citizen means doing a modicum of civic home, and it takes very little to debunk this media-perpetuated myth.  Obama has his own, but McCain's myth has much more to knock it down, and much that that has directly harmed other human beings -- four thousand+ American troops and untold hundreds of thousands of murdered innocents in Iraq.

    That John McCain is such a warrior (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Lahdee on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:47:44 AM EST
    but I can't help but wonder about his judgment. Why is it he attacks like a child, with demonstrative misunderstanding and a decided lack of maturity. Is this the real John McCain, even more juvenile then his hero George W. Bush?

    Rove made the ad (none / 0) (#153)
    by MyLeftMind on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:01:38 PM EST
    McCain's just the pawn.

    Parent
    Will the general population care (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:06:44 AM EST
    about the putrid stench though, or will they simply notice that Obama hasn't really done much of note and John McCain is a call em as he sees em toughy presidenty sort of dude?

    Good question (5.00 / 4) (#98)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:15:30 AM EST
    The McCain campaign seems to be doubling down on the standard Republican assumption that there are a lot of people who don't really care about, you know, facts and stuff.

    I have no idea if the narrative about McCain being this super-honorable guy and positive campaigner is impervious to being knocked down, but hey, you might as well try.  This is a pretty slimy ad that may well strike people as being very typical political fare, not the sort of thing they expected from John McCain at all.  A few examples like that, and hopefully people start to revise their opinion.

    Parent

    What has McCain accomplished? (none / 0) (#154)
    by Realleft on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:01:45 PM EST
    Hard for me to name much that he's actually accomplished (not just tried) in decades of leading.  What am I missing?

    McCain/Feingold?  Parts of it shot down by the courts, the rise of 527s/swiftboating, and I don't think the R's liked that one much to begin with.

    Promoting the "surge"?  

    I'm ingorant, I guess, but when I try to explore it I mostly find Republican talking points that don't seem to reveal real accomplishments for the public's investment of 25 years of salary support.  Particularly when you take away things he previously supported and later turned his back on.

    Parent

    Oops, (none / 0) (#156)
    by Realleft on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:07:47 PM EST
    thought I was in the open thread forum.  My mistake.

    Parent
    4 comments (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by waldenpond on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:14:25 AM EST
    You get 4 comments per day to speak out against the Dem ticket.  You are over that.

    Keep the rest of your comments on topic or you will be limited to 4 comments per day.

    That commenter is banned from my threads (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:16:33 AM EST
    for the day.

    Parent
    Already at the 10 comment limit... (none / 0) (#109)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:18:03 AM EST
    ...for new posters too.

    Parent
    geez (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:15:07 AM EST
    It's one of the filthiest ads Ive ever seen.  I said yesterday this thing was going ugly in a big way and this morning on Morning Joe, Andrea Mitchell said the same thing.

    The plan for the GOP is lie and distort as crassly as possible, put a ton on black and let it ride. Given the fundamentals, what else do they have?

    I feel dirty just watching it. (none / 0) (#144)
    by JoeA on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:44:35 AM EST
    I think I need to wash.

    Parent
    Precisely ... (none / 0) (#146)
    by santarita on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:49:05 AM EST
    and that is why Obama should be calling the tactics for what they are - shameful attempts to distract from the critical issues facing the country like the Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae meltdown and what that entails for the housing market, the economy and the taxpayers.

    Parent
    Hit Back (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:27:21 AM EST
    Just do the honest thing and release an ad stating that McCain is pro-pedophile, after why else would someone be against kids report sexual abuse.

    My two cents (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Prabhata on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:53:45 AM EST
    The Democratic party, the blogs and to some extent the media (NYT editorial: Low Road), protected Obama from Hillary's attacks.  We all knew that the Repugs would be merciless.  Here it is, the fourth quarter, and whining won't help.

    This ad may very well bury Obama with the women voters. Outside the partisan group, few will believe that he did not mean the pig remark to be an attack against Palin.

    Curriculum (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Manuel on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:23:49 PM EST
    The McCain campaign links to a curriculum that they claim is promoted by the law in question.  Why I don't have any objections to any of the material in there, I can easily see how some voters, particularly those McCain is trying to reach, would find the level 1 (early elementatry) material objectionable.

    TY for that link. (none / 0) (#190)
    by eleanora on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:34:38 PM EST
    Level 1 looks pretty standard all the way through to me, "One's body belongs to oneself....No one should touch the private parts of a child's body except for health reasons or to clean them...." I taught K-2 for a few years, and those concepts were incorporated into health and science.

    Do you think they're objecting to the sole Level 1 abortion concept? "Sometimes women become pregnant when they do not want to be or are unable to care for a child." Sounds pretty generic, but I'd probably ask my principal to move that to Level 2 if I were teaching it. Class discussion on that could be tricky.

    Parent

    Many people are prudish (none / 0) (#203)
    by Manuel on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 07:57:02 PM EST
    They might object to the description of how the egg and sperm join or how there are parts that "feel good" when you touch them.  My own opinion for level 1 (ages 5 to 8) is that sex education should be child led (i.e. answer the questions as they arise).  Different children will be at different stages so I minght not have a class wide discussion on the topic though I would not object to one. However, I think I am on the liberal end of things regarding education and I tend to defer to teacher discretion.

    Parent
    Out of touch. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by lilburro on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:27:05 PM EST
    I'm surprised Republicans think sex education is going to be a big issue for anyone other than hardcore Republicans.  It seems really out of the mainstream to NOT want sex education in the schools.  Even at an early age.  

    McCain seems determined to give America its own Thatcherite "paradise" of idiotic and hateful conservatism.

    Some comments here are defending (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by MyLeftMind on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:29:40 PM EST
    the need to educate children about their bodies for health and safety reasons.  That's all good and we're on the right side of this, but the real problem is that the GOP always uses our good work and our values against us.  They lie, and Rove is the sneakiest schemer in the bunch.  These ads are exactly how the GOP wins.  By manipulating and distorting and leaving a bad impression of our candidates, even when we're in the right.  

    We don't have to convince each other that it's OK to have sex ed in kindergarten.  Most of us allready recognize that.  If we want win, we need to be proactive and think like Rove's target audience.  Because the "age approprate sex education" lingo doesn't work.

    The kindergarten/sex ed issue isn't new.  Last year Gov Mitt Romney argued against Obama on this same issue, saying, "Let's let our 5-year olds be 5-year olds. When students are old enough for sex education they should be taught <blah, blah, blah>."  We should have caught this up front and started calling the Kindergarten through grade 3 or 4 something besides sex education.  It's not like we're teaching about sex at that age.  It's Health and Safety or something.  Changing the name would have altered the discourse because Repubs wouldn't be able to lie about the curriculum.  Moms concerned about their kids aren't going to go research their school's curriculum, they'll just be left with a bad impression from the ad.  They've got us on this because we didn't take charge of the conversation.  How are we going to explain to undecideds that the liberals are just trying to protect kids?  We can sure try, because once again, we're in the right.  But good luck reaching them all, and when you do, can you come up with a sound bite as succinct as "Learning about sex before learning to read?"  

    Maybe it's too late on this one.  Hitting back on McCain's lack of honor is helpful, but realistically, the campaign's response won't reach the audience that the original ad will.  Once it's viral (emails, youtube, downloadable to your cell phone so you can share it with your neighbors), it's hard to counter.  It's a brilliantly misleading ad, and very Rovian.  

    Let's be proactive and figure what they're going to throw at us next.  


    Obama (3.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:29:01 AM EST
    needs a better response than he's giving. It sounds to illectual and wordy.

    "Yes, I support (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by tootired on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:39:04 AM EST
    educational programs to keep young children safe from sexual predators. I want them to be able to walk to and from school and play on the playground safely. To expect candy from the world, but know enough not to take it from strangers. I want them to know how to get help when they need it. Surely, John McCain wants these things for our children, too."

    Parent
    How about this: (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:14:42 AM EST
    John McCain thinks children shouldn't be able to protect themselves from pedophiles.

    Parent
    Good, but (none / 0) (#113)
    by KeysDan on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:19:49 AM EST
    lose the last sentence in each case. The 'honor' issue, I agree with, but it wold only stir up a Wesley Clark boomerang; on the 'surely John McCain wants the same'--why speculate on his good intentions, or give him some perhaps,undeserved,credit, here?  --better way to get at his lack of honor,in my view.

    Parent
    I disagree. (none / 0) (#140)
    by coigue on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:43:16 AM EST
    Use McCain's strength against him.

    He claims to have honor, but he acts DIS honorable.

    His service was a lifetime ago.

    Parent

    This is what I would have ... (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:52:11 AM EST
    written for Obama:

    The bill protected children from sexual predators.  John McCain knows this. Last week, he told Time magazine he can't define "honor." Now we know why."


    Parent
    I would (none / 0) (#99)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:15:49 AM EST
    have written:
    John McCain doesn't believe that children should learn to protect themselves from pedophiles. One sentence.

    Parent
    But it uses two passive voice ... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:44:07 AM EST
    constructions.  That weakens the sentence.

    Parent
    Still not as damaging as the new Pig ad... (2.00 / 1) (#7)
    by cosbo on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:21:41 AM EST
    When Obama said "lipstick on a pig," he was clearly referring to John McCain's penchant for dressing up his old ideas and presenting them as "change".

    Obama was NOT referring to Gov. Palin, as the ad says outright. No way. No how.

    That ad is a flat out lie.

    Parent

    barracuda (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:38:16 AM EST
     Now if he had said, "if you put lipstick on a barracuda", then perhaps the argument might have some teeth....

    Parent
    McCain himself used (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by litigatormom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:42:13 AM EST
    the lipstick on a pig line when referring to Hillary Clinton's health care plan. Was he being sexist then, or just trying to pretend that he's not Bush III?

    Parent
    but, when McCain used the analogy (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:47:17 AM EST
    it wasn't one week after his opponent had used a lipstick analogy to describe herself, was it?

    That's the point.  Obama could have used the lipstick on a pig phrase all he wanted to if Palin hadn't just made the lipstick analogy about herself last week.  That's what makes the connection.

    Parent

    Completely different (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by litigatormom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:59:59 AM EST
    Palin's lipstick line was clearly meant to refer to herself.  Obama's line was clearly meant to refer to McCain's policies.

    Parent
    The problem is that only (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by tootired on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:08:25 AM EST
    people who think positively about Obama see it as "clearly" as you do. Like it or not, Obama has created the minefield that he now finds himself walking through. Just as people find themselves tip-toeing through a minefield of words that have suddenly become racially charged, many words, phrases, cliches, etc, are now gender charged. If Obama didn't anticipate fallout from "lipstick on a pig", then he needs some gender sensitivity training- quick. It doesn't matter what his supporters think he meant or didn't mean; it's what the greater public heard. This incident now has legs.

    Parent
    right..... (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:11:04 AM EST
    of all the analogies that exist, Obama just happened to pick a "lipstick" analogy that could be interpreted as a slam against Palin and an "OLD fish" analogy that could be interpreted as a slam against McCain's age because Obama ADDED the word OLD to that standard phrase.

    Parent
    He was talking about re-dressing old ideas (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:29:21 AM EST
    and calling them 'change'.

    So now, in addition to 'lipstick', you say Obama must never utter the word 'old', in any context?

    Are you kidding?

    Parent

    i don't care whether he uses those (none / 0) (#139)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:40:52 AM EST
    words or not.  I'm just addressing how they were interpreted when he did use them.

    But, are you now saying it's OK for republicans to begin using the word "arrogant" without it being interpreted as uppity?  How about using the term "young man" without it being called out as code for "boy".  Can they talk about Obama's drug use now without being accused of trying to ghetto-ize him?

    There are several other phrases Obama could have used without using the lipstick reference and it would have made the same point.  Why open yourself up for the attacks when it isn't necessary?

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#120)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:24:09 AM EST
    fresh fish wouldnt exactly stink, which was sort of the punch line.

    Parent
    all i pointed out is that (none / 0) (#133)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:35:17 AM EST
    the original phrase about wrapping fish and it still smelling doesn't include the word old.

    Parent
    Periodically, when I'm feeling ... (none / 0) (#150)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:55:07 AM EST
    down, I want to believe this.

    Parent
    Fine, ignore reality (2.00 / 4) (#43)
    by aedarrow on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:46:20 AM EST
    The crowd to which he was speaking knew he meant Palin. He knew what he was doing. Go ahead, defend him. Just like we defended Kerry when he was blowing the election. I'm angry. Obama is not running a smart campaign, ever since the convention. What happened to him?

    Are you truly saying that it was smart to insinuate Palin is a pig? Are you really saying Obama was too stupid to know people would take it that way? All the people in his audience, laughing it up and cat-calling, got it, but innocent Obama didn't know? If he didn't then he's not fit to be president. If he did know what he was doing, he's a bad politician. I want me friggin' $200 back, which might not seem like a lot to you, but it is to me. It was more than I can afford, but I believed in him. I think he's thrown it in my face. I'm angry. We are going to lose again through stupidity.

    Parent

    No, I am not saying he was right (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by litigatormom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:56:32 AM EST
    to insult Palin. I'm saying he wasn't insulting Palin. I've used the damn phrase myself. This is a made-up controversy. He was using the phrase as a shorthand for McCain = Bush. AS BTD keeps saying, he'd be better off just saying it that way, but lipstick on a pig is a well-know metaphor for portraying something old as something new.

    I think that Obama was at times quite arrogant to Clinton during the primaries, but with the exception of one remark ("she gets emotional periodically"), I don't think he made comments that were really sexist, and more than I think Bill Clinton was being racist when he made that comment about Jesse Jackson and the South Carolina primary. He was being arrogant, but not racist.

    It is clearer than ever that Hillary Clinton would have made a stronger nominee, and that Obama made a big mistake in not putting her on the ticket. But using a tired cliche isn't the same thing as being sexist.


    Parent

    Even what you say is true... (none / 0) (#107)
    by alexei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:17:36 AM EST
    This is a at a minimum an insensitive and tone deaf way to get your point across.  Obama and his campaign know about his problem with white women and they know that Palin talked about lipstick, and she is the only one who uses lipstick, you can't see that people make the connection with Palin?

    I actually do think it is a sexist dog whistle.  I read (sorry, I will search for the quote), that the Obama campaign does not believe that men will vote for a woman VP.  This comment would fit in nicely with that viewpoint  and he (as you and many others have argued), can have "plausible deniability" and say it was in reference to Republican policies.  There are other old sayings such as "this dog don't hunt" which can act as the metaphor for Repug polices.  

    BTW, just because it is an "old saying" does not mean it "ain't" sexist.

    Parent

    sorry... (none / 0) (#112)
    by alexei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:19:18 AM EST
    just noticed BTD's OT comment.  

    Parent
    Stay on topic please (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:14:00 AM EST
    This is your last warning.

    Parent
    Life is too short, and bandwidth too narrow,
    To waste on the likes of A.E.D. Arrow.

    Parent
    There's not enough comments (none / 0) (#178)
    by badguppy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:13:10 PM EST
    that rhyme!  

    :)

    Parent

    How about this rhyme? (none / 0) (#186)
    by BronxFem on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:23:21 PM EST
    For McCain
    No Pa(l)in....
    No gain.

    Parent
    I would agree, except (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:46:44 AM EST
    That earlier in the day almost the same line was used to introduce Sen Biden. I don't know what the meaning may be, but it just seems way too much of a coincidence that the two candidates appearances used the same line on the same day.

    Don't know the intent, but it is doesn't seem random.

    Parent

    Bob Beckel (3.00 / 2) (#51)
    by aedarrow on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:48:24 AM EST
    also used it earlier in the day in an interview. Come on, are we supposed to be idiots? It was a ploy, it backfired. I can't believe these guys get paid to run a campaign. WHY couldn't he have just stuck to the issues. We win on the issues. When we try to play the dirt card we always get burned because the press won't call McCain on it but they call Obama on it. He should know that.

    Parent
    New Posters are limited to 10 comments... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:54:57 AM EST
    ...per day.  You are at 8.  You might want to pace yourself.

    Parent
    the press won't call McCain on it? (none / 0) (#141)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:43:33 AM EST
    there were many in the press that went along with the charge that McCain's use of Paris Hilton in McCain's celebrity ad was "racial".

    Parent
    More OT nonsense. Also false. (none / 0) (#158)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:15:10 PM EST
    McCain's "Paris Hilton celebrity" ads are not the subject.

    They were shallow and smug, but not racist. I don't remember anybody from the campaign ever saying they were; much less the "many in the press that went along with the charge."

    Parent

    my response was (none / 0) (#166)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:27:40 PM EST
    directly ON TOPIC to the comment I was responding to.  So, if you thihnk I'm off topic, then so is the comment I responded to.

    And, just off the top of my head, how about everyone at MSNBC calling that ad racial?  Are they not memebers of the press/media any longer?.  How about several newspaper columns making that charge.  The most famous being the columnist who claimed that the Leaning Tower of Pisa and the Washington Monument were part of the ad.  Are newspapers part of the press?

    And, BTW, where in my comment did I ever claim that the Obama campaign charged anything as you suggest that I did?  It's not there to be found.

    Parent

    "Everyone at MSNBC" (none / 0) (#176)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    Including Buchanan? Scarborough? Dan Abrams? Chuck Todd?

    I watch MSNBC frequently, and while McCain's celebrity angle was widely disparaged as dumb, I don't remember anyone there calling it 'racist'. (Or even 'racial'. The two words mean different things; just like 'sexist' and 'sexual'.)

    I don't watch 24/7, so perhaps someone there did say something like that. But "everyone at MSNBC" is an obvious exaggeration, at best.

    And I infer that you agree, no one in the Obama campaign made this charge. Pretty disciplined of them, don't you think? I mean, considering how rampant the idea was in the media?

    Parent

    if you want to accuse me (none / 0) (#185)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:19:30 PM EST
    of exaggeration then quit accusing me of saying anything about the Obama campaign's reaction to that ad.  I didn't mention it and you are exaggerating if you claim I did.

    Or, if you want to accuse me of being off topic, then quit bringing in off topic subjects, like the Obama campaign's reaction to that ad, which I never mentioned.

    Or, if you want to take everything "literally" then since no one literally said Main Stream Press or Media, then I'll include the long list of blogs that accused McCain of playing the race-card (there's a third version of the charge for you) with that ad.  I tend to use the term "racial" instead of "racist" because when the term "racist" is used, then people claim such and such wasn't "racist" but it was injecting race, or was race-baiting, or was racial or whatever other term you want to use.

    By the way, it was also discussed as "racial" on CNN.  You are being disingenuous if you pretend that no one in the media called that ad race-baiting.

    Parent

    You said you never claimed (none / 0) (#189)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:33:32 PM EST
    the Obama campaign called 'racial' on that ad. There -- you just said the same thing again.

    I said I inferred that if you could have, you would have.

    The inference stands.


    Parent

    keep repeating that (1.85 / 7) (#39)
    by aedarrow on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:41:12 AM EST
    Maybe if you say it often enough it will make it true. Back here on planet earth, Obama has just had his "macaca" moment. This is going to resonate because it's far from the first time he's made sexist remarks. And women are the demographic he is hurting in. You can rail about McCain all you want, Obama did this to himself. It's arrogance and a disregard for who he hurts, his contributors and those of us who believed in him. I'm angry at him, frankly. I don't put it on McCain. Obama is the one who brought this on himself.

    Parent
    Now it's not the ad. Now YOU are lying. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:02:48 AM EST
    What?! (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:05:27 AM EST
    "His macaca moment", really, man how many McCain points was that one worth? Seriously, how in any way was this comparable to using a racial slur.

    Parent
    I'm so tired of reading (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:52:04 PM EST
    all the baloney for a minute I thought I read mascara moment and I thought God No, not Mascara too.

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#182)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:17:28 PM EST
    Now I'll chuckle the next time a candidate uses the word 'foundation'. Or 'compact'. Or 'blush'.

    Parent
    Please remove yourself from my threads (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:14:39 AM EST
    for the day.

    Come back tomorrow.

    Parent

    That ad is so dumb (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:16:25 AM EST
    considering that my grandmother used to use that lipstick pig analogy for thirty years of my life. What does that have to do with Sarah Palin saying what she said?  It seems to me that what Obama said was taken out of context and had nothing to do with Palin's silly bullyish I'm all tough lipstick analogy.  The finish of Couric.....who is Couric to speak of sexism in this election at this late and sort of unproven in this particular instance date?  I have started listening to C-span radio on XM these days.  The news networks are bunch of lying biased making up National Equirer story hucksters anymore and I'm tired of it.

    Parent
    Hooray... (none / 0) (#181)
    by badguppy on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:16:08 PM EST
    for alternative media!

    Parent
    You mean web ad? (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:24:12 AM EST
    heh.

    Parent
    Is is just web? (none / 0) (#14)
    by cosbo on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:26:00 AM EST
    Guess it didn't have that "I approve this message" crap.

    Parent
    That saying... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by cosbo on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:26:31 AM EST
    he's probably counting on the media to play it for free.

    Parent
    Nobody pays attention to web ads (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:30:54 AM EST
    except for partisans on the internet.

    Parent
    Not always. If it's controversial enough... (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by cosbo on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:32:18 AM EST
    it'll hit the mainstream media as news.

    Parent
    Keep discussion on topic please (none / 0) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:01:15 AM EST
    either Obama did it on purpose (2.00 / 8) (#22)
    by aedarrow on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:31:53 AM EST
    Or he's not as intelligent as people thought he was. Come on, he's a politician.

    Whatever, it doesn't even matter anymore. Obama is done. He's not coming back in the polls, The election was over when he gave a flat, partisan speech at his own convention. It's been all downhill since then.

    I expect a McCain landslide, and maybe in 4 years Hillary can save the party. Nominating a neophyte like Obama was a mistake, period. I'll be glad to see him go.

    This site (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:40:06 AM EST
    prohibits trolling.

    Parent
    Hi Troll (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:01:17 AM EST
    Um, look I can see how you disagree with all of his postions, but your critique of the speech is the ultimate troll flag, seriously, when a speech is rated in poll after poll as the best convention acceptance speech since Clinton in 1992 and you call it flat, your probably a bit of a troll.

    Parent
    Really? (3.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:12:58 AM EST
    They poll that?  Multiple pollsters poll that question?

    What percentage of the population even has an opinion on all the convention acceptance speeches since 1992?

    Parent

    Yeah they poll a lot of crap (none / 0) (#114)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:20:22 AM EST
    Gallup has polling of acceptance speechs, virtually all of them are viewed positively with the exception of Bush 2000 which combined (the good and the fair) at like 40%, and Gore which hit around 45%.

    Parent
    Oh (none / 0) (#119)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:24:03 AM EST
    So you're saying they're not actually comparing speeches, they're comparing post-speech polls from different years.  Kind of an apples/oranges thing in my book, but it makes sense.

    Gotta tell ya, though, while I personally thought Obama gave a great speech, everyone is different and people are entitled to have different opinions.  If American Idol is the highest rated show on TV you're still allowed to think it's crap, no matter what the approval polls say.

    Parent

    me too by gawd. (none / 0) (#26)
    by kelsweet on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:34:21 AM EST
    Did WHAT on purpose? Educate kindergaartners? n/t (none / 0) (#32)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:37:58 AM EST
    Did what on purpose? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:44:01 AM EST
    This is a bizarre comment.

    Parent
    sorry (none / 0) (#125)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:28:45 AM EST
    McCain was hit for the flat speech though by McCain standards it wasnt bad.

    Obama was generally hailed for a good speech.

    Parent

    Huge distortion!!! (none / 0) (#5)
    by befuddledvoter on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:18:10 AM EST
    John McCain approved this message?  May play well with some demographics but not in my neck of the woods.  

    I wonder if McCain approved this (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by litigatormom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:39:06 AM EST
    message, or whether Meghan has been schooled directly by Karl Rove:

    "No one knows what war is like other than my family. Period."

    Parent

    Here is Obama's response (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by litigatormom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:48:24 AM EST
    on the lipstick charge:

    Some of you may have -- I'm assuming you guys have heard this, watching the news. I'm talking about John McCain's economic politics, I say, "This is more of the same, you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig."
    And suddenly they say, "Oh, you must be talking about the governor of Alaska."

    [Laughter from audience]

    See it would be funny, it would be funny except -- of course the news media all decided that that was the lead story yesterday. They'd much rather have the story -- this is the McCain campaign -- would much rather have the story about phony and foolish diversions than about the future.

    This happens every election cycle. Every four years. This is what we do. We've got an energy crisis. We have an education system that is not working for too many of our children and making us less competitive. We have an economy that is creating hardship for families all across America. We've got two wars going on, veterans coming home not being cared for -- and this is what they want to talk about! this is what they want to spend two of the last 55 days talking about.

    You know who ends up losing at the end of the day? It's not the Democratic candidate, It's not the republican candidate. It's you, the American people. because then we go another year or another four years or another eight years without addressing the issues that matter to you. Enough.

    I don't care what they say about me, but I love this country too much to let them take over another election with lies and phony outrage and swift-boat politics. Enough is enough.



    Parent
    OT, but worth saying thanks! (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by blogtopus on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:53:56 AM EST
    I like how he responded to that; turning it on McCain, making it McCain's interpretation that is the insult, not Obama's comments.

    More like this, Barack. Please. LOUDLY.

    Parent

    ENOUGH! (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:15:16 AM EST
    This post is NOT about the Lipstick BS.

    Parent
    OK, but is it OT because it's (1.00 / 3) (#129)
    by tootired on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:30:47 AM EST
    not a Rove tactic? Maybe an Axelrod tactic instead? I'm having a hard time keeping score. ;^) When do we get to the issues?

    Parent
    uh wait (2.00 / 2) (#77)
    by AlSmith on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:03:15 AM EST

    But Obama is onto the phony outrage for the past week. It does seem like he always accuses people of doing exactly what he is doing.

    Parent
    It's on-topic to me because (none / 0) (#184)
    by obiden08 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:17:52 PM EST
    This riff needs to be added to every Obama speech. He needs ads that make this point.  His surrogates should be spewing it everyday. This needs to be his response ad nauseum.  Whatever the question, they should pull out a McCain example and give the same party line.  Of course, they need to add that they regret that they can no longer praise McCain's character.

    This is Obama's message -- same old politics. McCain is giving him so many examples. He just needs to pound them home.  Old politic vs.  your child's health; old politics vs. your child's eduation; old politics vs your pocketbook.  

    The answer to Rove is not more Rove, but pointing out what Rove is and what it means.  He has to beat this horse and continue to beat it even after it's dead.

    Of course, he can't use this analogy because he'd be accused of animal cruelty.  Yes, this is where we are.

    Parent

    The problem is (2.33 / 3) (#27)
    by aedarrow on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:34:44 AM EST
    Obama is getting a reputation for being sexist and making sexist remarks. Remember the "wiping Clinton off my shoe like s**t?" Remember him flipping Clinton off. Remember "she's likable enough"? Remember him not even vetting Clinton for VP, now expecting her to save him from the big bad woman Palin.

    I'm over Obama. I'll vote for him, but I'll never fall for him again. I was fooled. He's not a winner.

    Parent

    No I don't remember (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Polkan on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:40:43 AM EST
    When did he ever say anything about wiping Clintons off his shoes?

    Parent
    No. He wiped her off (none / 0) (#46)
    by rooge04 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:47:36 AM EST
    like dirt on his shoulders.  

    Parent
    In the same video... (5.00 / 0) (#64)
    by alexei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:58:05 AM EST
    Obama also picked up his foot, looked at the bottom and then scuffed his foot.  Also, notice his facial expressions.  

    Parent
    You're right. (5.00 / 0) (#86)
    by rooge04 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:10:45 AM EST
    I must have forgotten that part. Now I hate having to remember it.

    Parent
    ugh the primaries were ugly (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Jellabean on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:40:12 PM EST
    Not Obama's finest hour. Now he's repeating it.

    Parent
    Since you're using quotes (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Claw on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:47:38 AM EST
    When did Obama say that he was "wiping Clinton off [his] shoe like s**t?"  I don't buy the flip-off because it wouldn't make sense to risk your political career to flip someone off.  I wanted him to pick Clinton as VP, but if he knew he wasn't going to pick her, why vet her?  Making someone go through the vetting process--especially if done for show--is not a favor.  
    I don't believe you'll vote for Obama.  I think you are a troll.  Prove me wrong.  

    Parent
    As I recall the "flip-off" controversy (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by litigatormom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:50:15 AM EST
    Obama was caught on video bringing his right hand to his face and from a certain angle it looked like he did it with his middle finger, and some people thought he was flipping off the Clintons.

    To me it just looked like he was scratching his nose.

    Parent

    Again, in that same video... (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by alexei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:59:23 AM EST
    Obama "brushed off his shoulder(s) and picked up his foot, looked at his foot and scuffed his foot.  What do you think this meant?

    Parent
    That you don't (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Claw on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:04:49 AM EST
    Understand what brushing off your shoulders means.  You guys are like the Kennedy conspiracy theorists.

    Parent
    You mean like (none / 0) (#183)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 01:17:33 PM EST
    the people who insisted that mentioning June primaries and RFK meant that Hillary wanted Obama to be assassinated? Those Kennedy conspiracy theorists?

    Oh wait, that's the Obama campaign. Somehow I don't think what's what you meant to say. But it fits!

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Claw on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:02:23 AM EST
    I do that (as do many itchy-faced people) all the time.  I've probably "flicked off" thousands of people this way.  Look, Obama did a lot of things during the primaries that I don't approve of.  But this flick off thing was really silly.  

    Parent
    The crowd got it (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by JAB on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:17:32 AM EST
    So, either the crowd was a bunch of 6th graders (because trying to "hide" the flip off was considered bold and cool when I was in the 6th grade) or the audience got the underlying joke, since they all laughed after his pause.

    Even if he didn't intend it - it's all about perception.

    Speaking of ads - anyone see the "Lipstick" ad airing in places like Michigan,where McCain attacks Obama on sexism?

    Link

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Claw on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:18:47 AM EST
    The trolls have figured out that you can't go around rating everyone a "1."  See the "3" or "2" ratings on many Pro-Obama comments.

    Parent
    Ratings are not just for trolls (none / 0) (#172)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:48:12 PM EST
    They indicate the accuracy of what has been said in the comment, as well. Many of the comments in this thread are simply absent of fact, or Off Topic, another reason why ratings go down. The only thing ratings really do on this site is push comments that are relevant and insightful further up the thread, and the ones that carry little information into the discussion get pushed down with lower ratings.


    Parent
    You are banned from my threads (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:15:51 AM EST
    for the day.

    Come back tomorrow.


    Parent

    I don't remember (and neither does Google) (3.50 / 4) (#58)
    by Don in Seattle on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:53:17 AM EST
    Zero hits on the phrase "wiping Clinton off my shoe like" anything.

    You are making s**t up, and then throwing it in with other stories, some of which do have a basis in fact. The "flipping Clinton off," though, is another dishonest reference. Obama never did that.

    Dishonorable.

    Also totally OT.

    Parent

    He didn't say it. (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by alexei on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:00:57 AM EST
    Obama acted it out, in the same video when he "brushed off his shoulders" and "used his middle finger to "scratch his face".

    Parent
    No one is making it up. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by rooge04 on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:16:22 AM EST
    There is VIDEO evidence of the fact.  Where you sleeping under a rock at the time?

    Parent
    The other problem (none / 0) (#201)
    by jondee on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 04:02:19 PM EST
    is, the incredible tolerance there is here still for over-the-top mischaracterization and outright lying as long as its (ostensibly) in the service of defending the honor of the Divine Mrs C.

    BT, the primaries are over and maybe you should start thinking about clamping down a little on the obvious examples of McPuma bullsh*t.

    Parent

    John Kerry's joke (none / 0) (#55)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:51:50 AM EST
    To me the biggest mistake of the Obama campaign was to think there is real journalism at play in this campaign. They were lured in by favorable coverage during the primary.  The Republicans elected the most incompetent and inexperienced president twice...with help of a media that does not care one wit for facts.  

    ya (none / 0) (#108)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:17:49 AM EST
    absolutely correct.  They arent referees so dont pretend they are.

    Parent
    Off topic (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 10:59:44 AM EST


    Well, some of that stuff is offensive (none / 0) (#84)
    by litigatormom on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:08:11 AM EST
    but not because it's sexist. And I've been accused (by men, of course)of being too quick to see signs of sexism. YMMV.

    what? (none / 0) (#137)
    by AlSmith on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 11:36:51 AM EST

    how does aedarrow get so low rated on this?

    He has links to an article and a video showing Obama doing this.

    Are you guys low rating Obama action or the fact that aedarrow brought them up?

    A cheerful counter-ad (none / 0) (#157)
    by eleanora on Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 12:08:36 PM EST
    from NEA/AFT and/or the Health Dept might be good. They could show kindergarteners learning how to wash their hands properly (lays the groundwork for later info on preventing transmission of STD's), how to brush their teeth (taking care of your body), and talking about Stranger Danger 911, which even the most conservative parents usually approve of. That's usually what the K part of the K-12 sex-ed curriculum addresses.

    Then Obama/Biden could release a completely unrelated [lol] ad about Democrats: Keeping Your Kids Safe, talking about funding police and education programs that work for families.

    The sexual predator angle is good, but I'd like to see it framed as positive tie-in too, so the R's don't keep us off-message.

    Re: Obama's remark "Lipstick on a Pig". (none / 0) (#205)
    by Clatech on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:38:43 AM EST
    Obama's remark "Lipstick on a Pig", gaff or calculated?

    Only if you believe Barrack Obama is a gifted orator who knows how to play to an audience would you be offended by a remark that seemingly jabs Sarah Palin? You would also have to know the street use of this term, analogous to putting a paper bag over a woman's head before sexual intercourse.