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Roe: With "Friends" Like Sunstein, Who Needs Enemies?

Yet another reason why I believe Cass Sunstein is unfit to serve in an Obama Administration, his "defense" of Roe:

Those who seek to preserve the right to choose ought to be prepared to make some distinctions. As it was written in 1973, Roe v. Wade was far from a model of legal reasoning, and conservatives have been correct to criticize it. The court failed to root the abortion right in either the text of the Constitution or its own precedents.

This is nonsense in my opinion, particularly Sunstein's statement that Roe was not rooted in the text of the Constitution and the Supreme Court's precedents (Roe particularly followed Griswold to its logical conclusion.) Sunstein is entitled to his opinion, but he is not entitled to serve in a Democratic Administration or to be a Supreme Court appointee of a Democratic President. More . .

After basically taking the extreme conservative view of Roe, Sunstein "defends" Roe thusly:

[I]t is one thing to object to Roe as written in 1973. It is another to suggest that it should be overruled in 2008. American constitutional law is stable only because of the principle of stare decisis, which means that in general, the Court should respect its own precedents.

To Sunstein, Roe is only defensible as an act of stare decisis. Thus, on a woman's right to privacy and to choose, he is like Chief Justice Rehnquist was to Miranda, upholding Miranda on stare decisis grounds, instead of on the merits. We do not need, indeed, can not afford, a Cass Sunstein in an Obama Administration or on the Supreme Court.

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    uh...hmmm... (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:41:16 AM EST
    That noise you hear? It's my head banging against the desk...

    I never thought in my lifetime (5.00 / 9) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:54:38 AM EST
    we would be sitting in such a spot.  I feel really really betrayed by the Democratic party at this moment. I always knew the Republican party had it out for me though.  The Republican candidate saying NO Roe v. Wade is one thing, but while the Democratic candidate who has already made his female base furious is saying that he is pro-choice but anti-abortion?  Once again I will say, if men could get pregnant abortion and choice wouldn't even be an issue.  Without the energy and voices and power and strength of his women, and that would be all of his women and not simply just his wife, Obama will not win.

    Parent
    eh...yup... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:58:50 AM EST
    I'm still fuming over the first block quote.

    (BTW, I emailed you back from before...)

    Parent

    Betrayal. (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:17:57 PM EST
    Yep, it's exactly how I feel. Obama has betrayed the people who might vote for him with his tactics. But it goes beyond him. It goes to the entire Dem establishment for the most part--Dean, Pelosi et al. These characters have spent almost two years doing it. If Obama becomes President I imagine it will continue. They are acting towards voters like me the same way I expect the GOP to act.

    Parent
    There's almost nobody to vote for (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:42:24 AM EST
    for President considering who both candidates consider friends and advisors if you are a portion of the disgruntled demeaned female base of the Democratic party.  It isn't that hard to figure out why Obama is not leading, nobody is going to be energized to vote for Republican lite when they can have the real thing.

    I think you are (5.00 / 9) (#25)
    by Andy08 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:23:31 AM EST
    onto something here...It was Cheney's energy bill, General Casey, no caps on credit cards, no public funding, FISA and now even Roe becomes debatable?...
    I understand compromise but I want the POTUS to fight for true Democratic values.

    Parent
    When (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by chrisvee on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:35:16 AM EST
    I read Sunstein, I worry that he isn't any better than McCain on Roe v. Wade.

    Parent
    With all due respect BTD.... (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Shainzona on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:15:05 AM EST
    but I hope you realize that this post points to a critical reason why many women simply do not believe that Barack Obama will defend our rights any better than John McCain.

    Women will be hurt from this election - after all we fought for and the time, emotion, and HOPE that we had that one day we would be equal citizens.

    Parent

    We will be hurt within our political selves (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:21:37 PM EST
    and I have no idea when that will if ever be healed, but we will remain sisters as we have for thousands of years and we will fight for and protect each other whenever/however we can. We will empower each other despite what men will do and attempt to do to us.

    Parent
    But! But! (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by lansing quaker on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:24:12 PM EST
    Claire McCaskill said that the Republican Party wants to imprison women if they have an abortion!

    http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5798721

    Roe, Roe, Roe your boat!  Vote Obama!

    Oy.  Like BTD said, with "friends" like Sunstein, who needs enemies?  It just make me realize that there is no candidate with a strong stance I agree with on certain social issues.  Choice is one.  The other, for me, is gay rights.

    Obama says he's "for civil unions."  Do I think that he'll deliver on those?  Even address gay rights?  No.  But, as with choice, the arguments presented to me are essentially "but you agree with the campaign rhetoric, right?"

    I'm moving farther and farther from that mind-set every day.  The campaign rhetoric isn't enough for me any more.

    Parent

    It would be a huge mistake (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by tootired on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:43:24 AM EST
    for the Democrats to believe that Roe v. Wade is the issue that will convince women to vote for Obama. Obama may be as pro-choice as they come, but his responses to questions about choice have been too nuanced to convince. I don't know if most voters know who Cass Sunstein is, but for those who do, he's part of the "nuance".

    I have no idea what your comment is about (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:44:09 AM EST
    but it surely is not a response to my post.

    Parent
    I am presuming that Sunstein (none / 0) (#7)
    by tootired on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:47:22 AM EST
    was interviewed about Roe v. Wade because he is in Obama's inner circle of advisers. Otherwise, why devote column space to him right now?

    Parent
    He is (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:55:17 AM EST
    he was not interviewed (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:55:48 AM EST
    He submitted an Op-Ed for publication. At the end of it, he tacks on a bit of politics. But my post is not about that.

    My post is about Sunstein's views on Roie, not what the political implications of Roe are in this election.

    There is an Open Thread up below where you can discuss what you think the political implications of Roe are in this election.

    Parent

    Why'd he even bring it up? (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:59:57 AM EST
    He really wants to be the appointee, eh?

    Parent
    I think so (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:04:44 AM EST
    And that is why I am pushing against it.

    Parent
    Claire McCaskill was on TV (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:07:58 AM EST
    pointing out that Palin is spooky scary on Roe and then here comes Cass with his "conservatives are right" op-ed.

    Where is the message control?

    Parent

    I fear this IS the message. (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by oculus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:07:40 AM EST
    Double super bonus pony bingo (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by lambert on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:34:37 AM EST
    Believe them.

    Parent
    Yeah but the question is why (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by fercryingoutloud on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:39:36 AM EST
    IS this the message?

    If one connects the dots you'd have to say Obama knows and approves this op-ed and the purpose of it is to try to pull back some of the evangelical base who Obama was aggressively courting and lost to Palin.

    I don't think that is a giant leap if one thinks this through. So again Obama is pandering to the Right as he has continually done which is why most pure Progressive Democrats will not vote for him. As Militarytracy said: Why vote for Republican lite when you can have the real thing?

    Parent

    I agree with your first paragraph. (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:44:51 AM EST
    Has Obama been asked directly if he sees Sunstein (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by jawbone on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:49:52 AM EST
    as a good example of the type of person he would nominate to the Supreme Court?

    And I have to agree with Military Tracy--I've never felt I faced such horrible choices from the two main parties. So, I look at McKinney and think about a protest vote. Then, I actually do get sorta scared at the idea of a McCain presidency.

    I have never voted for a Repub; I will not vote for a Repub; but, dear Dems, why did you have to make this so difficult?

    Oh, cry, the beloved party!

    Parent

    Howard Fineman wrote an article in the last (none / 0) (#154)
    by hairspray on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:20:09 PM EST
    few days outlining some of the O campaign mistakes and which ones can still be rectified.  He then quotes some anonymous sources as saying that Obama wants to run everything his way and is not open to compromise.  Apparently according to this story (sorry no link) Obama has a cadre of Chicago pols, Harvard intellectuals and some very deep pockets in the mix. It looks like Sunstein might be there to stay.

    Parent
    Fineman piece (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by tree on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:33:03 PM EST
    Roe based solely on stare decisis (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by befuddledvoter on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:52:52 AM EST
    is dangerous.  Stare decisis only wins the day when the court wants it to.  If stare decisis were sacrosanct, we would have no "turning cases" at all. There would be no development in the law.  To rest solely on that is fraught with risk.  I agree with BTD.  

    And the logical question is, if Obama is (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by Anne on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:56:58 AM EST
    as committed to the pro-choice position as he says he is, why is he being advised by someone who doesn't support Roe for the right reasons?

    We've already seen what happens when an administration relies on legal opinions from the OLC and WH counsel to go in whatever direction they want to go - all presidents have done this, some with more intent to go around the law than others - so my concern would be that someone with Sunstein's already-stated problems with Roe would be just the person to give Obama some advice on crafting new laws and/or executive orders that will incorporate Obama's "I'm pro-choice, as long as they're choices I agree with" into the abortion issue.

    I can hear Obama now: Sunstein advises him on a lot of issues, that he doesn't agree with him on everything, but it's helpful to have the debate.  Yeah, yeah, yeah - whatever.  That just means we have to look at more of what Sunstein has been saying to know whether the rest of what he thinks might cause trouble dow the road.

    Sunstein should be removed (5.00 / 9) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:58:49 AM EST
    from the Obama circle no question. But he should be removed from all Democratic circles in my view.

    Parent
    time to purge the Democratic Party of all heterodox opinion on abortion -- not only opponents of Blackmun's Roe decision, but even those supporters of Roe who you believe don't support it strongly enough, or for the right reasons.

    Of course I don't need to remind you that we are now a month and a half from an election whose outcome is very much in doubt. And if McCain wins, anyone he appoints is almost certainly going to be a vote to overturn Roe.

    ==

    I don't think I disagree with you substantively, on the question of whether Roe is securely based on Griswold. Frankly it's been a long time since I could speak halfway-intelligently about Roe, but I think I mostly agree with you on the merits of the Roe decision.

    Of course, the reasoning used in Griswold, with a right to privacy based in "penumbras" of various Fourth Amendment rights, is itself anathema to "strict constructionist" critics like Scalia. So I wouldn't count on Griswold necessarily emerging untouched from a McCain victory, either.

    The conservative critique of Roe specifically has more to do with Blackmun's decision to make different rules based on what trimester the pregnancy was in, doesn't it? Griswold would not provide any relevant precedent for any trimester-based rules system.

    It does seem to me that the trimester-based rules of Roe can be considereed an example of "legislating from the bench." But Blackmun's ruling was based in a solid understanding of the facts of pregnancy and fetal development, as well as a solid political understanding of what would be viable as a legal outcome. So in this case, as in Brown vs. Board, perhaps "legislating from the bench" isn't such an awful thing.

    ==

    This is all very interesting. But I digress from my main point, which is: First things first. Let's get a Democrat elected, before we start debating who deserves to be "removed from all Democratic circles."

    If we don't, then I think Sunstein's position on Roe is moot. If we don't, I'm afraid everybody's position on Roe is moot.

    Parent

    This is total nonsense (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by robrecht on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:58:53 AM EST
    I am not even a lawyer, and even I know the importance of Griswold to Roe v Wade based on something I read in college 27 years ago.

    Nonsense any thinking that a women's right to (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Salt on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:53:34 AM EST
     
    Privacy is going to change is just silly, but it dose not surprise me that Dem leadership fails to grasp their loss of power on matters of women or our rights.  The problem and IMView it's over, is that this issue became a Political Wedge a club used to disempower, divide, the largest group in the electorate and tame women's groups into impotent party hacks. What is a mistake for any political sect is to believe that women will take that bit ever again?


    I lack your confidence a woman's (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by oculus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:18:48 AM EST
    right to privacy will not change.  Sunstein is quite dangerous.  Obama obviously listens to him and will continue to.

    Parent
    We'll I'm not an Obama supporter but I am part of (none / 0) (#59)
    by Salt on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:30:16 AM EST

    an emerging political force of empowered women and men, not tied by Party allegiance who will absolutely fight for women's privacy and we every last one, VOTE.  Sunstein may want to also introduce himself to Hillary Clinton, by the way, if he thinks he is somehow empowered by the Party selection of his candidate, who would if elected, will not even have a mandate within  his own Party and a few other more pressing items to deal with first..


    Parent
    It's not just Sunstein (none / 0) (#130)
    by caseyOR on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:35:39 PM EST
    Another prominent lawyer backing Obama is Doug Kmiec. Kmiec is Catholic and very anti-choice. He has been telling folks that he is comfortable with Obama on the abortion issue because of things Obama said to him.

    Parent
    That is _not_ the thrust. . . (none / 0) (#163)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:30:50 PM EST
    of the recent New Yorker piece in which Kmiec states he's supporting Obama despite his position on abortion.

    Parent
    You're being overly dramatic (none / 0) (#140)
    by jar137 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:34:49 PM EST
    Cass Sunstein is not dangerous to a progressive interpretation of the constitution.  I happen to agree with his position and came to that view when studying substantive due process in law school.  It is a simple fact that substantive due process is a construct devised by the court to reach a proper conclusion on issues of personal integrity, such as the right to privacy.  I personally believe the court would have been on stronger ground if it overturned the Slaughterhouse cases and applied the privileges and immunities clause.  That is where the right to privacy correctly rests, in my opinion.  It is a fact that the current approach is subject to attack by the right- and they continue to gain greater control over the judiciary.  

    Would it be acceptable for the SC to find a constitutional due process right to health care? or any other right it believes is important to a democratic society?  We may applaud the conclusion, but that doesn't justify the reasoning that leads you there.  There is a strong argument that the court would be creating new rights (hence legislating), which is not its proper role in the separation of powers.

    Let me be clear, I think the court's reasoning is correct, but it has not tied its reasoning sufficiently to the text of the constitution.  

    Parent

    You are being absurd (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:50:29 PM EST
    imo, Sunstein is indeed a danger to liberal jurisprudence precisely because he is wearing the mantle of progressive when he is in fact a conservative, and in many respect, an extreme conservative.

    Parent
    Sustein states (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:19:28 PM EST
    This: "Roe v. Wade has been established law for 35 years; the right to choose is now a part of our culture. A decision to overrule it would not only disrupt and polarize the nation; it would also threaten countless doctors, and pregnant women and girls, with jail sentences and criminal fines. As Ginsburg has also urged, Roe v. Wade is now best seen, not only as a case about privacy, but also as involving sex equality."

    I'm with Clinton on this

    Parent

    Personally I agree, but I can see that the (none / 0) (#78)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:33:56 PM EST
    other side of that argument is that Roe v Wade created the same kind of disrupt and polarization 35 years ago...

    And as someone who is Pro-Choice, it is only honest to say that overturning Roe v. Wade would not outlaw abortions, it would return the power to the States.  The States, in turn, could attempt to pass anti-abortion laws.  Which, it is my sincerest hope, would fail spectacularly when people got a chance to vote for or against strict anti-abortion laws.

    Parent

    Many states it will pass (none / 0) (#172)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:54:03 PM EST
    some not.  I lived in CA when they were one of the few that allowed abortions, pre Roe. We  would calls from friends and non friends who wanted help for just that reason.

    Wealthy have never had a problem receiving abortions.  It will impact people who cannot afford to just go to another state or out of the country to receive help.

    Parent

    And there is you problem (none / 0) (#71)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:01:32 PM EST
    The Constitution itself does not guarantee a "Right To Privacy" (the 4th amendment is prohibition against search and seizure which is interpreted to include privacy) a conservative can argue that it is not found anywhere in the Constitution (rather a court's interpretation of the Constitution).  I believe what Sunstein's argument meant is if Roe had been based on a person's Liberty, it would be far harder to overturn or question its constitutional underpinnings.

    Parent
    You think 'Liberty' (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:55:54 PM EST
    is an easier word to define than 'privacy?'

    I'm not a lawyer so perhaps this question is not germane to legal argument but I do not see what a prohibition against search and seizure could possibly mean if it does not mean both privacy and 'Liberty'...at least as any average citizen uses those words.

    To argue as a conservative (strict constructionist?) might that a specific word does not appear in the constitution is to elminate the court's consideration of any post 19th century issue, from telephones to professional sports...from sexism to ageism.

    Which raises (for me) the question of what the word 'justice' could possibly mean in such a context.

    Parent

    It may not be easier to define, but (none / 0) (#131)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:45:43 PM EST
    it IS in the Constitution... which would eliminate one of the best legal arguments against the ruling.

    My understanding of most reasonable strict constructionists is that if these rights are so important as to be deemed constitutional right, then they should be IN the Constitution.  To be perfectly honest, I think these rights ARE that important and that they should be in the Constitution.  Actually amending the Constitution is a difficult process (as the Founders intended) but would insure that the majority of America agreed with those amendments.  When it is taken out of the People's/Legislature's hands, and done by judicial fiat... well, we know where that has led.

    I am not sure how this is an unreasonable argument.

    Parent

    How about this (none / 0) (#132)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:49:30 PM EST
    They already are in the Constitution, "strict constructionist" propaganda notwithstanding.

    Parent
    Where in the constitution? (none / 0) (#141)
    by jar137 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:37:34 PM EST
    Do you know why the Supreme Court (none / 0) (#156)
    by hairspray on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:26:07 PM EST
    chose privacy over liberty in their deliberations and conclusion?

    Parent
    With Dems like you and Siunstein (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:01:41 PM EST
    who needs Conservatives and Republicans?

    The Constitution does not guarantee a right to privacy? You and Bork get along famously.

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#89)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:08:14 PM EST
    Griswold was based on (none / 0) (#91)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:09:22 PM EST
    in part on the liberty clause, iirc.  John Roberts during his confirmation hearing testified that he accepted Substantive Due Process....it is a viable theory....

    Parent
    Yeah, but it was much more fun (none / 0) (#120)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:18:52 PM EST
    to take shots at me : )

    If someone can point me to the passage in the Constitution that discusses privacy I will accept BTD's argument.  My argument might not ultimately be a winner (who knows) but at least Liberty is a concept within the four corners of the Constitution... which gives it a stronger underpinning that Privacy which was defined via judicial precedents.

    Just because you do not like the reality of something, does not mean you should just ignore it.

    Parent

    Why do you say liberty and privacy (none / 0) (#123)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:27:58 PM EST
    are different or have different underpinnings....Privacy is a part of liberty....

    Parent
    I don't disagree with you (none / 0) (#133)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:49:38 PM EST
    but that is not what the decision says.  Privacy as a concept was found/recognized as right in the "penumbra" of the Constitution.  Whereas Liberty is clearly articulated with in the Constitution.

    If the decision had said, frankly what you said, none of these arguments would exist.

    Parent

    Well, as I recall Justice Douglas (none / 0) (#139)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:22:20 PM EST
    said the penumbra emananted from a number of things....

    And, I don't think saying "liberty" instead of "privacy" would make any difference to the pro life folks...

    Parent

    You're probably right, but at least (none / 0) (#165)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:01:56 PM EST
    they wouldn't have a sound legal argument to make.  Right now, we're the ones defending a bad ruling because we like the outcome.

    Parent
    Sunstein is NOT ... (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:34:32 AM EST
    the best disinfectant.

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Steve M on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:24:13 PM EST
    In college I wrote a term paper about how Roe proceeded directly from Griswold, and in fact all the way back to turn-of-the-century precedents like Pierce v. Society of Sisters and Meyer v. Nebraska in terms of recognizing a Constitutional right of privacy for people to make family decisions.

    Now, maybe it was a good paper and maybe it wasn't, that's not for me to say.  But it's pretty remarkable that I was able to research those precedents and draw that conclusion without any formal legal training at all - and then you have Cass Sunstein, acting like Roe just kind of came from out of nowhere.

    Sunstein is a disgrace (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:29:49 PM EST
    Let's be clear, he is no progressive. He is a conservative.

    Parent
    Heck (none / 0) (#106)
    by Steve M on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:41:49 PM EST
    Why not just put Posner on the Supreme Court while we're at it!  At least the opinions would be more fun to read.

    Given Sunstein's positions on the "war on terror" issues and executive power, maybe we will find out whether Bush's actions were wrong because they were wrong or because it was Bush doing them.

    Parent

    I think you may be missing the (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by frankly0 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:49:26 PM EST
    point that Sunstein actually believes that Griswold itself was not based on the Constitution as it should be understood, and that, in his opinion, there is no "right to privacy" to be found in, or justified by, the Constitution.

    Yes, this would imply that, on Sunstein's view, the right to use of contraceptives has no general ground -- or at least no general ground that he ever identifies -- in the Constitution.

    Here's what he has to say on the matter:

    I think that some of the Warren Court's decisions were a little lawless and jumped too far too fast. In so many areas the court's ideals didn't have clear constitutional foundations. The Griswold v. Connecticut case, which created the general right to privacy, was that kind of ridiculously weak opinion. The court didn't identify a clear constitutional basis for saying that the ban on contraceptives within marriage was impermissible. The court referred to "penumbras" and "emanations"[in the language of the ruling] from the Bill of Rights. But the Bill of Rights doesn't have "penumbras" and "emanations"; it just has a catalog of rights. It would have been better to say that the ban was never enforced and it was a recipe for arbitrary and unpredictable action by the police in a way that does violence to the rule of law.

    Note that the only grounds he gives for overturning the Connecticut ban was that it was never enforced consistently.

    And yet what is the obvious remedy for such a failure? Make sure that a more rigid and comprehensive law is introduced which IS enforced consistently -- that is, make the law far more oppressive in people's lives than it had been.

    That's where this man's vaunted legal reasoning gets him.

    Parent

    His belief that there is no privacy right (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:52:42 PM EST
    is a large part of what makes him so dangerous and so unacceptable.

    Parent
    If Sunstein has a right to privacy (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Cream City on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:41:35 PM EST
    about his prostate, I have a right to privacy about my womb.  Or if he would have to go through a gauntlet of bloody-baby-poster-waving wingnuts to get to a clinic instead of a hospital to get his vasectomy, then we can talk about the privacy rights that women already give up to get their rights.

    And when a pharmacist publicly refuses to provide Sunstein with his Viagra, then we can talk about the privacy rights that pharmacists ignore when refusing to fill prescriptions for contraceptives.

    I swear, if I could put some of these guys in high heels for just a day to walk the walk that women have to do, some guys might wake up and realize that everyone's right to privacy at least about medical matters is threatened today by not protecting it for women.

    And if we could please just discuss these as medical matters, we might make some progress.

    Parent

    Btw, I do really appreciate the legal talk (none / 0) (#136)
    by Cream City on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:45:45 PM EST
    here.  (I am surprised to see no mention of Brandeis.)  I just interject a perspective outside of legal scholarship, which sometimes seems to not address the disparate realities we already have -- with women not having the right to privacy to receive medical treatments in hospitals, etc.  Picture the difference if the anti-abortionists tried to block hospital access.

    We have given up so much.  The Sunsteins and Kmiecs must not be given more power.  So tell me:  Does Obama have legal advisers of different perspectives?  Or only these pseudo-Republicans?

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#119)
    by Steve M on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:06:30 PM EST
    the right to privacy in Griswold and Roe is the exact same right to privacy that guarantees your right to send your kid to a private instead of a public school (can't find that one in the text of the Constitution either, can ya?), so if he really wants to start throwing out all these long-accepted rights, so be it.  And here I thought Clarence Thomas was the only one who wanted to get rid of centuries-old precedent.

    Parent
    as part of the Constitution but not as an ad-hoc add-on, but rather a Constitutional Amendment.  Unfortunately, in the last few decades we have learned that if we cannot convince people that our points, positions or ideals are correct... then some of us stop listening and resort to litigation... where we only have to convince one person.

    Then we manage to act shocked that other American's don't accept our position.

    I guess I am just old-fashioned and want to convince people I am right and have the full support of the Constitution for my actions.

    As an aside, I still don't think any of the Pro-Roe commenters here have identified where they found the discussion of the Right to Privacy.  I have been call "scary" etc... can one of you make your argument without the prerequisite name calling?

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#128)
    by Steve M on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:59:54 PM EST
    I understand the argument that goes like "if it's not specifically enumerated in the text, then it doesn't exist as a protectable right."

    However, the Ninth Amendment just flatly debunks that argument.  It is an inadmissible method of constitutional interpretation, unless you want to read the Ninth Amendment out of the document altogether.

    The Bill of Rights is definitely vague in many respects.  It was written that way on purpose, because it was part of a document that had to command a supermajority.  Thus it was left to future generations to fill in the blanks.  That doesn't mean, though, that the Bill of Rights was intended to provide "your rights go exactly this far, and no further, unless a future majority says so."  The Ninth Amendment refutes that.  The blanks in the document are blanks that can be filled in one way or another, but they were never intended to deny unenumerated rights by implication.

    Even if the Constitution said, flat-out, that there is a right to privacy, that still wouldn't resolve the abortion question.  Lots of people simply don't agree that abortion is a privacy issue in the first place.  But various rights have been recognized by judicial interpretation for a long, long time now, and I don't really see how the right to an abortion is more legitimate or illegitimate than any other.

    Parent

    But it does not mean that those (none / 0) (#161)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:18:32 PM EST
    unenumerated rights are Federal rights.  Rather it means that they may exist and their omission doesn't mean that they do not exist.  However, this argument basically concedes that the while the Right to Privacy may exist, it is not one of the rights that is guaranteed by the Federal government... and as such, it is reserved for the States to decide.

    Parent
    Hmm (none / 0) (#167)
    by Steve M on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:16:30 PM EST
    I don't accept that the Ninth Amendment was intended to say any such thing.

    Parent
    Slightly off topic (none / 0) (#169)
    by jar137 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:50:43 PM EST
    I have always found it so powerful and beautiful that the bill of rights are not actually a grant of certain rights, but the recognition that there are certain rights which are so transcendent that no government can touch.

    Parent
    What did Cass Sunstein do to you? (1.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:17:10 PM EST
    Got a little axe to grind, eh?  

    I see the argument's already been made above (and I have little to add to what's already been said up there), but IMO Sunstein's arguments are perfectly within the mainstream of legal scholarship.  Roe should stand under stare decisis, but its reasoning is pretty darn muddled.  But hey, can't let an opportunity to slam Sunstein pass, eh?

    Nice substance (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:59:32 PM EST
    I hate  this kind of blind BS response. Do you have anything of value to add?

    Parent
    Heh, it was a little juvenile. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:19:46 PM EST
    I'll grant you that.  I've just noticed that you seem to have a particular animus toward Sunstein, and I think you're being unfair to him here.

    Substantively, I don't think you can make a credible argument that Sunstein's view is "the extreme conservative" one.  The idea that Roe  conjured a "fundamental right" out of thin air is a very common among constitutional scholars, across the political spectrum.  Personally, I'm not sure that idea is correct, but there's no reason to single out Sunstein on it.

    Parent

    Excuse me (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:23:57 PM EST
    It IS the extreme conservative view and any one who knows anything about the debate knows it is.

    Sunstein's position are the extreme conservative position on a myriad of issues.

    You clearly know nothing about Sunstein and what is considered progressive legal theory.

    Look, if a Republican appoints Sunstein, fantastic.

    That a Democrat might is an outrage.

    You really could not care less about these issues is what is obvious to me.

    Parent

    Nope. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:37:31 PM EST
    Calling me uninformed doesn't change the facts here.  And I actually do have some idea of what I'm talking about.

    If you want to ignore what's actually happening in current legal scholarship, be my guest.  But I don't much appreciate you writing off my knowledge (let alone my commitment to progressive principles, among which abortion rights are very high on my list) instead of actually citing anything to back up your argument.  Have fun chasing people out of your threads instead of having discussions, I guess.

    FWIW, I tend to agree with Kermit Roosevelt on this stuff.  Whether or not the Court got Roe right, those of us who value abortion rights may need to start looking at alternate constitutional grounding for those rights, because we're starting to swim against the currents of jurisprudence.

    Parent

    For crisisakes (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:41:59 PM EST
    I do not care where you went to law school, go to law school or teach.

    Cass Sunstein is no progressive and to argue that he is taking the progressive view of things is simply ridiculous.

    Worse than that, Sunstein has been an incredibly ill informed commenter on things legal for years now.

    You CLEARLY do not know that.

    Parent

    Not trying to name-drop the school or anything. (none / 0) (#111)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:47:01 PM EST
    A law degree is pretty much just a law degree.  Just pointing out that I am, contrary to your accusation, pretty familiar with this stuff.

    Parent
    Already tried logic on this one... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:28:45 PM EST
    It was NOT well received.  As near as I can figure, the crux of this post is that since the outcome of Roe is desirable, there can be no question or discussion of whether or not it is based on sound legal reasoning.

    Because you and I both know from law school that legally speaking... the ends always justify the means : )

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#164)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:33:21 PM EST
    You have continually lacked the ability to understand simple sentences.

    To question the right to privacy puts you out of the mainstream is the point.

    Not just the progressive mainstream, the ENTIRE mainstream. You stand with Bork.

    That is your right, but do not claim you are arguing a mainstream point of view.

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:43:22 PM EST
    Endorsing the view stated by Kermit Roosevelt makes you a conservative legal theorist.

    That you MUST know.

    Parent

    OK, so who's liberal? (none / 0) (#110)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:45:16 PM EST
    You're saying America's law school are 95% staffed with conservatives?  What of Roosevelt's have you read?  He's written some of the most compelling attacks on originalism that I've seen.

    Parent
    His book (none / 0) (#148)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:48:27 PM EST
    It stinks. Incredibly weak.

    Parent
    I guess I'd like to see anything (none / 0) (#127)
    by frankly0 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:51:16 PM EST
    like a serious argument that basing the right to abortion (or contraceptives?) on anything like "equality" (as is suggested by Roosevelt), instead of a right to privacy, is not going to be every bit as much a stretch as the original Roe decision.

    People talk big, as does Sunstein, about how we need alternative grounds. Yet what do they produce that passes any kind of laugh test?

    Zippo.

    The real problem is that the Constitution read literally or read with only a very small amount of license, does not ground a right to abortion -- or, for that matter, even a right to use contraceptives.

    Serious people realize that this is a problem, and inconsistent with what we believe the spirit of what the Bill of Rights stands for. For them, if a "right to privacy" can be justified by the 9th amendment along with "penumbras", that is good enough, because it has to be good enough.

    It's just a cheap argument to say it isn't "rigorous". There will never be a rigorous argument, in the sense that one can point to words that plainly make the case, for the right to abortion or contraceptives in the Constitution. Why entertain the fantasy of Roosevelt in which somehow, employing some other means, one might be able to put such an argument together? Why not simply accept the pretty obvious fact that this is just not going to fly? Every other direction one comes at the same problem will fail in essentially the same way, in which there is some major lucuna in the reasoning, some major leap that will never satisfy more literal minded critics.

    One must either go down a path in which one acknowledges one must go pretty well beyond what's explicitly stated in the Constitution, and so justify such rights, which certainly most people think we as individuals are entitled to, and should follow from the spirit of the Bill of Rights, or we go down a path in which we insist on legal reasoning so "rigorous" that it throws the baby of basic rights of individuals out with the bathwater.

    Parent

    Just one further point (none / 0) (#129)
    by frankly0 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:05:41 PM EST
    At least the argument from a right to privacy comes at the matter of both the right to abortion and the right to use of contraceptives in an honest, direct way. I think that when most of us think about these issues, and try to justify in our own minds the "moral" case for these rights, that is the line we ultimately adopt: that both are grounded in something like a larger right to privacy in making such intimate decisions. If that is how the "moral" reasoning follows, it's by far the best to find whatever justification one can for such a general right in the Constitution, than to seek some alternate way of justifying it.

    While the "equality under the law" approach might seem more congruent with today's overall zeitgeist, and therefore more "acceptable", it strikes me as a tremendous stretch to go from that to a justification for a right to an abortion. "Equality" may resonate better today, but it can hardly be any more employed as a general principle to underlie any ruling that you might want than anything else. It's certainly not how most people come at the problem of abortion. For most people, the decision to have an abortion is first and foremost an individual's private decision about something that is very intimately connected with herself, in which she must weigh, based on her own beliefs, her interests and the interests of her potential child. It's simple contrivance to bring in "equality" as the overriding consideration here.  

    Parent

    And if we are to think about the founders' (none / 0) (#137)
    by Cream City on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:52:51 PM EST
    thoughts on this, as to why it was not in the Constitution -- perhaps because abortion and pregnancy-preventive methods were legal and so widespread that it never occurred to them that the medical profession would, a century later, actually want the business and drive out midwives and win laws to make abortion illegal, at least by midwives.  (Medical men then held to their right to decide on it for their patients.)

    I often am fascinated by discussions of legal history that ignore the larger context of history.  After all, the founders didn't recognize rights for African American men.

    I still want my ERA.:-)

    Parent

    Fine (none / 0) (#142)
    by jar137 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:55:33 PM EST
    but what if the SC decided to find additional executive powers in the penumbra of Article II and greatly expanded pres. powers under a Bush-like presidency?  The problem with weak reasoning is that it can also lead to results that one abhors with little legal recourse if the decision is based on the decisionmaker's beliefs.  I am not arguing for the strict constructionists; I just think one should present the strongest possible argument.  For example, with abortion, I believe the SC would have been on stronger ground if it found a right to autonomy (and tied it to the limitations in the 4th and 14th amendments), to be free from government interference in one's person without a compelling state interest (eg, to prevent one from self-harm).  

    Parent
    I'm not so sure, BTD (none / 0) (#2)
    by Polkan on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:41:48 AM EST
    I think Sunstein is trying to speak directly to one of the two points that have always had Republicans up in arms:

    (1) Roe v Wade was essentially a law made by the judiciary
    (2) It's a tool of gender equality above anything else

    In my view, Obama had a very good and nuanced position on Roe by proclaiming himself to be pro-choice but anti-abortion - in essense trying to soften the two issues that are driving the opposition and unless I misunderstand something Sunstein is in keeping with that.

    He fails in defending Roe (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:43:32 AM EST
    I have no idea what your comment is about frankly.

    Parent
    The law (none / 0) (#134)
    by G Davis on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:32:53 PM EST
    It's about constitutional basis of law.

    There are holes in the Roe decision.  There's not many legal scholars that would disagree with that.  

    A discussion of legal basis among legal scholars is not necessarily an attack on the overall principle of the law.

    Recognizing your weak points to counter opposition attacks is not necessarily an attack on the overall principle of the law.

    If there's a particular problem(s) with the case used to establish the principle, fix it to reinforce the principle.

    Not knee jerk overreaction, just prudent destruction of opposition argument.

    If you haven't noticed the right has been pretty successful at chipping away at Roe.  That needs to be stopped for the sake of all individual rights.

    Parent

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#151)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:56:04 PM EST
    most legal scholars disagree with that. SOME disagree with the reasoning and frankly I find their argument utterly nonsensical.

    I find the attacks on Roe from the academy to be among the silliest bits of trash I have read in the realm of scholarship.

    It is one thing to say, "I would not have done it that way." But the scholarship pretends that was done in Roe was not done since John Marshall.

    It is pretty outrageous, indeed, sexist stuff imo.

    Parent

    Sunstein is (none / 0) (#28)
    by Andy08 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:28:50 AM EST
    opening the wrong door in the argument!!

    Everyone is for reducing the number of abortinos: that's sometjing both parties can work with.
    Touching Roe isn't and shouldn't. Sunstein is
    starting the argument with the Reps. cards. Agrrr..

    Parent

    Pro-choice, but anti-abortion? Which means what? (none / 0) (#73)
    by jawbone on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:10:41 PM EST
    Many Dems have said that they are personally anti-abortion and would not make that choice, but that they defend the right of woman to have control over her own body and to have the right make a choice that Dem would not make.

    Is that how clear Obama has been?

    Clarity? Try this article by Lynn Sweet and tell me what he will do:

    Speaking to a receptive crowd at a Planned Parenthood event, Obama, asked about how to make sure justices back abortion rights, said the court needs justices who believe the Constitution need to be broadly interpreted.

    "There is nothing wrong in voting against nominees who don't share a broader vision of what the Constitution is about.

    "The Constitution can be interpreted in so many ways, and one way is a cramped and narrow way in which the Constitution and the courts essentially become rubber stamps for the powerful in society. And then there is another vision of the court that says that the courts are the refuge of the powerless because often times they may lose in the democratic back and forth; they may be locked out, prevented from fully participating in the democratic process."

    Asked later how he would determine the views of a judge, Obama said, "you get a pretty good sense from someone's writings, someone's body of work what their judicial philosophy is."

    Please, anyone, what does this tell voters about the kind of justices Obama might nominate? Seems like a word fog to me.

    His recent radio ad has a nurse stating McCain will make abortion illegal, that women will lose this right under McCain--but that is not Obama speaking. Will it be "just words" for an election or "words matter" in this area?

    Parent

    Pro-choice, but anti-abortion, which means what? (none / 0) (#98)
    by KVFinn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:18:56 PM EST
    Are you really doubting Obama's pro choice cred?  McCain is spending millions saying Obama supports 'infanticide' based on Obama's support for abortion rights.  The choice couldn't be more obvious.

    Parent
    I doubt it, based on Obama's "nuance" (none / 0) (#138)
    by Cream City on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:54:25 PM EST
    and, to the topic, the prospect of him nominating Sunstein to the high court.  That Obama is not as bad as Palin and McCain on this does not make Obama good on this issue, with all of his equivocations.

    Parent
    That quote from Obama (none / 0) (#143)
    by jar137 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:00:31 PM EST
    expresses a truly expnsive, progressive constitutional philosophy.  It's the Warren court approach (which was a progresive blip in a con. history that is decidedly conservative and pro-business).  I don't think you can reasonably have concerns about Obama's approach on the basis of this quote.

    Parent
    Really? The quote about (none / 0) (#144)
    by Cream City on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:07:24 PM EST
    when life begins, which was above his pay grade?

    Parent
    I was referring to (none / 0) (#145)
    by jar137 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:21:12 PM EST
    the quote supplied by jawbone upthread, which I think you understood.  I had not read that previously and am surprised that he would express that view so directly.  The paygrade comment was ridiculous in my view, but I have to say I do not fear that Obama will allow Roe to be undone.  I have plenty of doubts about him, but this is not one.  

    Parent
    Roe is a mess of legal reasoning (none / 0) (#17)
    by lawstudent on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:01:17 AM EST
    First, let me just say that I fully support the proposition for which Roe stands, but make no mistake, amongst legal scholars and students, Roe is one of the most horribly reasoned, confusing opinions from the Supreme Court.  Ask any legal scholar, judge, attorney, law student you know, whether they be from the left of the right...there are very few people out there who think Roe is some sort of masterpiece of a legal opinion...

    No it is not (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:06:42 AM EST
    It is a very clearly argued opinion based on the text of the Constitution and precedents, particularly Griswold and Eisenstadt.

    Among legal scholars andand student, there are a bunch of politically motivated folks.

    What Roe is is BADLY WRITTEN, not badly reasoned.

    I wish legal scholars and students could understand the difference.

    Parent

    to each his own (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by lawstudent on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:16:38 AM EST
    We're all entitled to our own opinion on the merits of the opinion.  But I was just pointing out what the predominant view on Roe is in the legal community from both sides of the coin.  Your initial post is written as though Sunstein is coming out of left field with his statements (or "right" field, as it may be), and I think that is entirely misleading and misinformed.

    Not sure why you had to take your response to (1) you're wrong, (2) legal scholars and students are politically motivated, and (3) legal scholars and students don't understand the difference between poor writing and poor reasoning (a very bold assertion).  How about some factual support for your blanket assertions instead of schoolyard defense tactics?

    Parent

    You confuse Roe Rage with scholarship (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:29:18 AM EST
    This abstract does a good job of encapsulating the phenomena:

    After decades of assault on the jurisprudence of the Warren Court, many progressive legal scholars have lost faith in judicial enforcement of constitutional rights. Some have responded by embracing popular constitutionalism and advocating mobilization against the Rehnquist and Roberts Courts; others, chastened, urge a minimalist jurisprudence that will avoid giving any group offense. There is fear of provoking the kind of backlash that many associate with Roe, which is often regarded as having caused the rise of the New Right. In this article, we offer a new account of the relationship between adjudication and popular constitutionalism, which we call democratic constitutionalism. Democratic constitutionalism affirms both the need for judicially enforced rights and the fundamental significance of popular constitutional engagement.

    We begin from the understanding that, in the American tradition, constitutional politics and constitutional law depend on one another, however insistently they assert their autonomy. This article offers an account of democratic constitutionalism which emphasizes the interdependence of judicial and popular enforcement of constitutional rights, despite perpetual friction between them. Judicially enforceable rights give concrete and institutional form to constitutional values; ongoing popular constitutional engagement ensures that these values retain democratic legitimacy.

    Interpretive disagreement is a normal condition for the development of constitutional law. We identify understandings and practices that enable citizens to make claims on the Constitution and government officials to resist and respond to their claims; these interactions shape the Constitution's meaning over time in ways that sustain citizen engagement in our constitutional order and reconcile Americans' competing commitments to the rule of law and to self-governance.

    We draw on these understandings to question leading accounts of backlash featured in the work of Michael Klarman, William Eskridge, and Cass Sunstein. Each of these theorists tends in his own way to overestimate the costs of backlash and to underestimate its benefits. They are each attuned to the harms that attend constitutional conflict, but they do not sufficiently consider how citizen engagement in constitutional contestation can contribute to social cohesion in a normatively heterogeneous polity.

    Roe symbolizes the fears of those who counsel courts to avoid controversy. Legal scholars and political commentators commonly assert that judicial overreaching produced Roe rage, arguing that legislatures might have liberalized access to abortion if only the Court had stayed its hand. We examine scholarship on Roe's reception, as well as primary sources of the era, which together undermine this conventional account. Backlash to Roe was not just about judicial overreaching. Political mobilization against the decision expressed opposition to abortion's liberalization that began in state legislatures years before Roe was decided. As importantly, backlash to Roe was not just about abortion. During the 1970s, opponents of the Equal Rights Amendment and the school prayer decisions condemned the abortion right as an expression of "secular humanism," giving birth to the coalition politics we now associate with Roe rage - a broad-based social movement hostile to legal efforts to secure the equality of women and the separation of church and state. Roe rage opposes ideals of individualism and secularism that lie at the foundation of our modern constitutional order. Accommodating resistance to Roe thus presents normative questions analogous to those posed by accommodating resistance to Brown.

    The article concludes by illustrating how the themes of Roe rage have recently found expression in the Supreme Court's opinion in Carhart.



    Parent
    BTD, thnx for this view-I just realized how well (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by jawbone on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:26:27 PM EST
    the rightwing had inculcated the theme that Roe was badly decided--in that I myself have been hearing mostly that argument for decades now and it's insinuated itself into my understanding, as a layperson, of the "problem" with Roe, especially since even Justice Ginsburg had mentioned she felt Roe stopped a movement within the states to legalize abortion. It is very helpful that the MCM is receptive to, if not controlled, by the righties and Repubs.

    This was an eyeopener and brought me back to what we understood way back in the 60's.

    Parent

    Gay marriage will remain legal (none / 0) (#118)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:01:02 PM EST
    in California.   The initiative to ban gay marriage is trailing here....after a similar initiative passed by more than 20 points just a few years ago....

    Time has made a difference....But also, the California Supreme Court's ruling affirming gay marriage has changed much....The current initiative is described on the ballot as seeking to take away the "right" of gay marriage.  Conservatives know they will lose this fight....And for the first time in the United States, a state-wide vote favoring gay marriage will be approved by a majority of voters.

    So, a Supreme Court ruling that is opposed by a majority of people can be later affirmed by a majority. Courts, of all institutions, should not cower in the shadow of public opinion.

     

    Parent

    Your statement (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:25:14 AM EST
    on what you perceive to be the "predominant" view on Roe ois just your opinion of what the predominant view is.

    It is not the predominant view at all.

    Legal scholars and students with no political ax to grind believe Roe is a badly WRITTEN opinion, not that it is a badly REASONED opinion.

    Indeed, since all the predictions of the demise of the logic of Roe ( O'Connor's famous "Roe is on a collision course with itself" line) have proven to be silly (the viability line remain around 24 weeks), the so called views you champion as the "predominant" view have fallen by the wayside.

    Among liberal legal scholars, Roe has gained in stature. Among Conservative hacks, Roe remain a bete noire. Among everyone else, Roe is viewed as a badly written opinion, but not extraordinary in its reasoning, for the better or the worse.

    Parent

    some support please... (none / 0) (#27)
    by lawstudent on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:26:41 AM EST
    Some support? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:30:45 AM EST
    You write an unsupported comment and ask for support?

    It so happens I just gave you support but it ill behooves you to demand "support" while writing utterly unsupported assertions.

    Parent

    Actually lawstudent is correct. Sorry BTD (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:07:33 PM EST
    Roe is not well regarded.  It is thought of as the best design possible in a bad situation.  But none but its absolute supporters think that its underpinnings were very sound.

    Since Roe, people have been constantly reading it to express an absolute right to an abortion while completely ignoring that fact that the State's interest in the pregnancy/child develops.  During the second and third trimesters, the State's interest in protecting the child is considered by Roe to be very compelling.

    Basically it was a good outcome based on so-so legal reasoning and underpinnings...

    (Interesting BTD, I normally agree with most of your opinions)

    Parent

    From the article (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:48:31 AM EST
    On the first interpretation of minimalism, Roe was incorrectly decided because the abortion right was controversial, even if the abortion right might otherwise be constitutionally justified. Although this account of minimalism is consistent with Sunstein's desire to avoid social conflict, it is not credible. It would mean, for example, that Brown, which was surely as controversial as Roe,
    was incorrectly decided. We are led, therefore, to the second interpretation of minimalism, which
    would mean that Roe was incorrectly decided because it was inconsistent with the "respect" that the Court ought to have shown toward Catholics and others who in 1973 vigorously supported the right to life. The concept of "respect" must thus do important work, for minimalism does not argue that the abortion
    right is otherwise unworthy of constitutional protection. Everything depends on the exact meaning of "respect." Strikingly, Sunstein himself does not explain what minimalism means by "respect." One possible meaning of "respect" is that courts should remain neutral as between competing and antagonistic constitutional visions. But our analysis of Roe rage suggests that there may be circumstances in which no such position of neutrality exists. Progressives regard questions of family roles and religious
    faith as individual decisions that should not be imposed by the state in a pluralistic community. Conservatives leading the backlash against Roe regard the protection of individualism as disrespectful of their view of traditional
    family values and traditional faith. A court must choose between these incompatible constitutional ideals. Progressives would not find the Court to be "neutral" were it now to seek to placate anxieties about religion and the family by reversing core constitutional decisions forbidding bible instruction in public schools or protecting principles of gender equality.

    An alternative interpretation of "respect" is that courts ought not to decide cases in ways that antagonistic groups might find objectionable. But this interpretation of respect means that courts should articulate only those
    constitutional rights that express uncontroversial values. For reasons we have
    discussed, this interpretation of "respect" is not plausible. It implies that the Court should not have decided Brown because desegregation was inconsistent with the "respect" that the Court should have shown toward the Southern way of
    life. Just as ordinary legal reason considers the proper relationship between adjudication and democratic politics before judicially enforcing a constitutional right, so ordinary legal reason also considers the proper relationship between
    cultural disagreement and adjudication before judicially enforcing  a constitutional right.



    Parent
    Roe poor example (none / 0) (#56)
    by AlSmith on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:22:39 AM EST

    If you compare Roe to Heller, it is a very poor document.

    Maybe Heller was a bit too much for some people, but since Roe massively shifted society is it too much to ask that that the the decision be more rigorous?


    Parent

    It was badly written (none / 0) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:04:06 PM EST
    but extremely rigorous.

    I hate mindless drivel,. Give me some substance please.

    Parent

    What is the point in attacking Roe (none / 0) (#109)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:44:43 PM EST
    if one believes it should be upheld?

    What a woman does with her own body sure seems like  fundamental right....Not something that should be subject of the whim and back and forth of state legislatures.....I can't think of something that is a more fundamental concept of personal liberty than whether a woman becomes a mother or not.

    Roe seems like a perfectly good interpretation of the term "liberty".....

    That we are arguing this on a liberal blog tells me that people are getting used to the idea of Roe being reversed.  Really, it's no big deal...it was bad law from the getgo, and now the rational, enlightened states will protect that right....

    Parent

    Then why hasn't a Democratic Congress (none / 0) (#33)
    by ding7777 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:48:16 AM EST
    created a well-written (Roe)law which encompasses the Constitutional reasoning that the Supreme Court could not/would not overturn?

    Parent
    I do not understand your question (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:49:06 AM EST
    Because it's just so easy to attack members (none / 0) (#51)
    by MyLeftMind on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:17:19 AM EST
    of Congress who take initiative on big ticket items like abortion.  It's one thing for an elected official to state that they support choice or a woman's right to an abortion, especially premised on RvW, but it's a whole nuther thing to step forward and try to enact a law that would forever codify that right.  That would be like drawing a target on your forehead, when you could have just "supported" abortion rights.

    Parent
    And then the state's rights argument (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:40:55 AM EST
    comes into play...and we start heading back to 1910 all over again...or maybe just 1967.

    Parent
    60 (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:47:36 PM EST
    When you get 60 votes in the Senate and a Democratic President....then Congress could pass a pro-choice law....

    Parent
    Sustein was being professorial (none / 0) (#19)
    by barryluda on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:06:19 AM EST
    But if he wants to analyze Roe v. Wade's reasoning, I would expect that he go on to give a more reasoned support for the result.  Relying on stare decisis is, as befuddledvoter says, dangerous.  It's disappointing that Sustein doesn't put forward alternate, reasoned support for the decision.

    He thinks Roe was wrongly decided (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:08:21 AM EST
    And that should disqualify him from a Democratic Justice Dep't role that in any way  involves privacy rights, consultation on Supreme Court justices and of course, a seat on the Supreme Court.

    His views on warrantless surveillance and Executive power should exclude from any other role in an Obama Administration.

    Parent

    Yes, I see, the point is Roe was poorly written (none / 0) (#23)
    by barryluda on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:10:43 AM EST
    not poorly reasoned.  My point of him being "professorial" should have been that he should have acknowledged or even corrected the poor writing.  But to challenge the reasoning, even if poorly written, should disqualify him.

    Parent
    wiretapping (none / 0) (#38)
    by ikez78 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:53:14 AM EST
    Obama also voted for the wiretapping.  FYI

    Parent
    Re: He thinks Roe was wrongly decided (none / 0) (#66)
    by jccleaver on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:45:14 AM EST
    And that should disqualify him from a Democratic Justice Dep't role that in any way  involves privacy rights, consultation on Supreme Court justices and of course, a seat on the Supreme Court.

    With all due respect, I thought litmus tests were what the Progressives were always criticizing the Right for doing?

    Parent

    Not this Progressive (none / 0) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    I am a big believer in Litmus tests.

    Parent
    I love how a post on Roe (none / 0) (#37)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:52:51 AM EST
    brings out all of the right wingers.

    Roe Rage (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:57:51 AM EST
    RDS (well, that's actually something else. . .) (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:58:56 AM EST
    It's not clear it's just "rightwingers." (none / 0) (#155)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:21:36 PM EST
    My layman's perception was that even amongst progressive law professors, Roe was poorly decided.  It's interesting to read here, that it's more considered badly written than badly reasoned.

    I have my own opinions regarding Roe, and I don't think I'm the only progressive liberal with these views.  Including such gems as:

    A)  Agreeing completely with Bill Clinton that abortions should be safe, legal, and rare.
    B)  Appalled by the frequent demands in modern feminist forums that the Clinton view is disgusting, sexist, and wrong
    C)  Appalled by the frequent demands by top tier feminist bloggers for abortions for any reason at any time during the pregnancy.
    D)  Thinking that as a father I will do my damndest that my own kids will know about sex, how to avoid pregnancy, and know I will help them get an abortion if it comes to that
    E)  Being thankful to scientists and the FSM for the morning after pill, and RU-486.
    F)  Thinking that Planned Parenthood chapters that violate mandatory reporting laws should have their local presidents charged and jailed.  Part of civil disobedience is taking responsibility for violating laws.  I think it's quite likely Planned Parenthood has knowingly acted to violate the laws and have protected rapists of all sorts, which I consider an odd way to help women.
    G)  Considering that thanks to cheap airline flights, cheaper cars, Plan B, RU-486, that living in a State without Roe in 2008 is very much different than living in a State without Roe in 1973.
    H)  Understanding that Gay Marriage (MA & CA), and Universal Healthcare (MA) issues make me more interested in recognizing States Rights than previously.
    I)  Recognizing that Republicans talk a big talk on Roe, but would be afraid to see it actually go thanks to the big Roe Wedge.
    J)  Truly wondering how "keep the government off our bodies", a statement I absolutely endorse, became "We demand mandatory vaccinations of untested chemicals into prepubescent kids!" a demand that upon further study, defies the facts, medical opinion and common sense.

    To the extent that progressive liberal constitutional law experts consider Roe poorly reasoned, not just poorly written, I would be happy to see it go away nationally and replaced in many or most states.  (I cannot judge BTD's claim that the consensus is that it is badly written but well reasoned, or the counter claim.)

    Anyway....

    Parent

    Your comment has little to do with Roe (none / 0) (#157)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:26:11 PM EST
    It was a response to a comment that... Roe (none / 0) (#158)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:40:14 PM EST
    discussions bring out the Right Wingers.

    Roe Discussions bring out lots of people for many reasons.

    And I think what I brought up may having little to do with the reasoning behind Roe, but have everything to do with how society and Roe have shaped each other, the context we find ourselves in 2008, and the election.

    It has to do with how I as a layman, can be upset with Sunstein on wiretapping, but find his comments re: Roe to be reasonable.

    It seems odd that a "Big Tent" democrat would be arguing that his comments on Roe should lead to his being forced out of an administration.

    Parent

    I'm not such a big fan of scary decisis either. (none / 0) (#159)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:41:22 PM EST
    Heh (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:59:12 AM EST
    Wrong. I refer you to my posts on Dred Scott where I debated Scott Lemieux on the subject.

    It is obvious to me that anyone who compares Roe to Dred Scott has never actually read the Dred Scott decision.

    I'm the king of the world (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:10:40 AM EST
    and you must pay me tribute.

    "Surely you can't argue against that."

    Parent

    I shouldn't bother, (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:18:21 AM EST
    but Congress does not determine what our fundamental rights are, the Constitution does.

    Parent
    Where's my tribute? (5.00 / 0) (#57)
    by andgarden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:22:42 AM EST
    Many disagree with you (none / 0) (#84)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Five of them who matter right now....

    But, you might get Roe reversed....with McCain and Palin, I think that would be likely.....  

    Parent

    How much? (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:15:07 PM EST
    Is there a discount for early payment?

    Parent
    I certainly will not waste (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:13:48 AM EST
    my time arguing with you.

    Parent
    What is the history (none / 0) (#64)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:42:47 AM EST
    of abortion law before Roe was decided?

    Parent
    State by State (none / 0) (#67)
    by jccleaver on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:48:31 AM EST
    Like pretty much everything else, it was "left to the States to decide".

    Some states allowed abortion, some states didn't. Most states had some sort of restrictions on it. Roe-v-Wade declared it to be a federal issue, thus igniting the culture wars.

    Yet another reason Federalism is important!

    Parent

    State by state (none / 0) (#69)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:56:22 AM EST
    By 1910, every state had anti-abortion laws, except Kentucky whose courts judicially declared abortions to be illegal. In 1967, forty-nine states and the District of Columbia classified the crime of abortion as a felony. The concept of "quickening" was no longer used to determine criminal liability but was retained in some states to set punishment. Nontherapeutic abortions were essentially unlawful. The states varied in their exceptions for therapeutic abortions. Forty-two states permitted abortions only if necessary to save the life of the mother. Other states allowed abortion to save a woman from "serious permanent bodily injury" or her "life and health." Three states allowed abortions that were not "unlawfully performed" or that were not "without lawful justification", leaving interpretation of those standards to the courts.

    There were a few cases around 1967 that argued against the restrictions. One case won in CO, which started the shift to modifying the restrictions.

    Roe was argued in that context...

    Parent

    Forgot link (none / 0) (#70)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:57:12 AM EST
    Conservatives don't really (none / 0) (#86)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    believe in federalism on abortion issues....The most recent late term abortion bad was a federal law.

    Parent
    I like my typo (none / 0) (#93)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:11:01 PM EST
    You don't get it... (none / 0) (#122)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:26:13 PM EST
    do you?

    A federal law will never pass without a serious majority in both House and Senate.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#146)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:27:37 PM EST
    I am not proposing any national legislation....Not sure what you downrated me for.....

    Parent
    I didn't... (none / 0) (#153)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:04:40 PM EST
    The comments that were part of the discussion have been deleted...and the user was banned.

    Parent
    and I downrated you... (none / 0) (#126)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:38:48 PM EST
    on the grounds of "in limited cases" because that's what we had in 1967 with regards to many states.

    How exactly do you plan on writing the law?

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:28:48 PM EST
    I think you got the wrong guy...

    Parent
    nope... (none / 0) (#152)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:03:47 PM EST
    the original comment was deleted.

    Parent
    Uh...hello... (none / 0) (#121)
    by kredwyn on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:24:31 PM EST
    It does matter because it gives you context as to why it even went to SCOTUS in the first place.

    Parent
    Also full of sh*t, I guess: (none / 0) (#92)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:09:55 PM EST
    Kim Roosevelt, Alan Dershowitz, Ruth Bader Ginsburg...

    I think you've made some good points about Roe being well-decided in and of itself, but that's  a separate issue from your criticisms of Sunstein.  Sunstein's position on Roe is unremarkable, even among liberal legal scholars, and in my opinion it's disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise.

    Ruth ?Bader Ginsburg (none / 0) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:27:59 PM EST
    NEVER EVER said what Sunstein said.

    You are actrually full of sh*t but you believe Susntein at the drop of a hat.

    Ginsburg wrote that the EPC was a BETTER basis for the holding. BTW, Ginsburg is clearly wrong because for the EPC argument to hold up, there has to be an underlying privacy right.

    As for Dershowitz, he is one of the people most full of sh*t that there can be. Do you know a damn thing about what Dershowitz believes? Like torture is perfectly fine? That executive detention is constititional?

    I go with the assumption that you are a progressive Democrat but I see I am wrong.

    Parent

    Dershowitz certainly made a fool of himself (none / 0) (#115)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:54:13 PM EST
    with his ticking-bomb BS on torture.  No argument there.

    Parent
    Hmm... that's curious. (none / 0) (#117)
    by Pegasus on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:00:26 PM EST
    Below where I cited to Roosevelt, who is making the same EPC argument as Ginsburg, you said believing that makes me a conservative legal thinker by default.

    Ginsburg's a conservative now too, huh?  We're through the looking glass now.

    Parent

    Ginsburg made an alternate argument (none / 0) (#150)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:53:23 PM EST
    and her objections were POLITICAL, not jurisprudential, and she was not speaking as a judge, but as an advoacte for an argument she had been usign as a litigation tactic.

    Beyond that, Ginsburg is simply wrong. There must be an underlying right to even invoke the EPC. Ginsburg is simply nonsensical on this question.

    Beyond that, what did JUSTICE Ginsburg write about Roe in Carhart,  et al.

    Parent

    You Seixon are banned from my threads (none / 0) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:16:50 PM EST
    Go play in Jeralyn's threads.

    Actually my bald assertion is based on (none / 0) (#125)
    by Matt in Chicago on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:35:15 PM EST
    what I learned in law school.  Contrary to what you believe, my Con Law professor was NOT what you would characterize as a conservative...

    What I have also learned is that normally you're very a astute political observer, but on this issue you will accept no other view point but those who agree with you.

    Refusal to listen and consider doesn't make you right... it just makes you more surprised when you lose an argument in the end.

    seriously, are we supposed to continue to ignore (none / 0) (#160)
    by nycvoter on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:10:29 PM EST
    the people Obama surrounds himself with just because he says "it's classic guilt by association"  what does that mean anyway.  Can't you say that you can tell a lot about a person by the company he keeps.  Kerry and I believe the name is Johnson, who fought HRC on making health care truly universal during her first attempt, have said universal health care isn't going to happen, why do we think Obama would fight for it in his first term or even support it.

    We have nominated someone we can't even begin to believe in and people wonder why McCain is ahead.  I don't believe that Obama would stem the tide of restrictions on abortion or support a women's right to choose if push came to shove.  

    Sunstein (none / 0) (#171)
    by DancingOpossum on Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 07:21:34 AM EST
    Sunstein is also a big defender of the "unitary executive" theory. Yeesh. And don't forget Obama's friendship with Doug Kmiec, who makes Sam Alito look like a pot-smoking back-alley abortionist. Is Kmiec another SCOTUS possibility, or even an advisor on the issue? Scary.