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The Polls - 9/16

The Daily Kos/R2000 poll (8/13-15) has Obama up 48-44, up 1 from yesterday. I won't be around until this afternoon to provide you the other tracker results. UPDATE - Ras ticks towards Obama, McCain's lead sliced to 1, 48-47. Hotline shows a big move towards Obama, 46-42, from a 1 point lead a day earlier. Gallup ticks towards Obama, McCain lead cut to 1, 47-36.

The internals of this poll seem quite plausible - McCain by 20 among whites, Obama up 94-4 among A-As and leading by 2-1 among Latinos. McCain leads among men by 4 and Obama leads among women by 12. Turnout models are determinative. Demography is, as always, political destiny.

A final note, on the legitimacy of the DKos/R2000 poll - R2000 is a legitimate and respectable pollster. It seems to have a slight Dem house effect. But those of you voicing the idea that Kos would fiddle with polls are being just plain stupid. I would stake my own reputation on Markos' integrity. I disagree with him a lot. But he would never ever fudge the numbers.

This is a polling Open Thread. Just about polls please.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    I think its highly (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:11:21 AM EST
    funny to read a thread of people saying I dont know if I can trust a poll sponsored by daily kos, now back to that Fox News sponsored poll because THEN who pays for the poll doesn't matter anymore.

    Why? (none / 0) (#24)
    by rooge04 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:16:27 AM EST
    Kos has more than proven its lack of ethics and truthiness in the last year.  

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#35)
    by skuld1 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:36:36 AM EST
    We all know Fox News has an obvious bias, but DKos makes them look like saints.

    Parent
    Eh... (none / 0) (#27)
    by ks on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:19:35 AM EST
    People aren't trusting Fox News, they are trusting Ras. which has a good history of polling, whereas the Dailykos/R2000 polls aren't even used in any of RCP's compilations.

    Parent
    so can anyone tell me (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:28:40 AM EST
    why a Research 2000 poll is bad?

    once again Kos only pays them, its no more a Kos poll then rass is a Fox news poll, they just pay for it and get to release it first.

    so honestly I dont know why is R2K a bad polling group then?

    Parent

    Simple answer to that one is . . . (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:01:10 AM EST
    If a poll fits in with their preferred narrative i.e. "Obama is losing" then it's a good poll.  If it shows Obama in a positive light or McCain in a negative light then its a "bad" poll.

    Do I win a prize?

    Parent

    No prize for you (none / 0) (#56)
    by ks on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:12:19 AM EST
    That's just a weak way to try and frame the discussion.  It's not a FOX vs Dailykos issue.  It's a RAS vs R2000issue. The point you're avoiding is that the R2000 polls are not used in any of the the RCP compilations, which tends to indicate that they are suspect.

    Parent
    RCP has a very pronounced (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:17:58 AM EST
    right wing slant so you'll forgive me if I don't take their word as gospel.

    If BTD or someone credible wants to articulate a reason why R2000 polls are any less credible then fair enough.  

    If you look at the pollster ratings over at Fivethirtyeight.com here,  which takes into account the "pollster introduced error" based on past performance,  then R2000 comes out ahead of Quinnipiac, PPP, SV, Suffolk, and well ahead of Gallup.

    Maybe BTD can comment later on whether he feels R2000 have any particular credibility issues?

    Parent

    Err. . . (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:20:03 AM EST
    the Kos poll is about two weeks old.

    Parent
    what are you talking about? (none / 0) (#73)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:26:29 AM EST
    the R2K poll is a daily tracking poll

    Parent
    You have misunderstoon his point. (none / 0) (#81)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:33:48 AM EST
    The Kos R2000 poll only started polling about 2 weeks ago,  compared to the long running Gallup and Rasmussen presidential trackers.

    That's another inconvenient explanation for the poll not being included in the RCP's polling average,  other than a GOP bias on the part of RCP.

    Parent

    Siena/NY poll (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Lou Grinzo on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:35:08 AM EST
    The news here in Rochester is carrying a story about a Siena Poll of NYS that shows a shocking decline in Obama's lead over several months.

    I diaried it on DK this morning (link below), and did not get, shall we say, a warm response.  The overwhelming opinion was that the poll was a meaningless outlier because it was taken right after McCain's bounce, plus it was close to 9/11.  I have no idea how this accounts for the June-to-August decline in the numbers, but the Kossacks find it a compelling argument, it seems.

    The poll results basically show Obama with a humongous lead in NYC, and McCain with a moderate lead in the NYC suburbs and the rest of the state.

    I have no idea how reliable Siena is as a polling organization; I think the only two meaningful ways to interpret these results are [1] Siena's whole set of polls is a mess and should be ignored in total, or [2] the polls are generally good, even if the most recent one is skewed by the timing, and indicate a genuine erosion of Obama's support in NY.  (I was under the impression that Obama had an enormous lead in NY, so these Siena numbers were quite a surprise to me.)

    Can anyone here shed some light on how reliable Siena is?

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/16/10127/5745/636/600429

    Honestly, who cares? (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by andgarden on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:44:28 AM EST
    McCain isn't going to win New York. Full stop.

    Parent
    Of Course He's Not (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:36:07 AM EST
    He may poll better with upstate and suburban Repubs and Indies than a more RW Republican candidate or a more religious one like Huckabee (although Romney being a neighboring gov might have been okay too), but he has zero chance of actually winning.

    Parent
    it goes back to the Media (2.00 / 0) (#164)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 12:08:35 PM EST
    narrative being set.  

    If news gets out that "Polls" -- even ones with dubious methods -- are showing Obama having trouble in Solid Blue States like NY and NJ, it's much easier for people who are on-the-fence to make the leap and support the one who's "winning", John McCain.

    "Polls" showing Obama doing poorly in States like NY and NJ also make it easier for the Media to start writing the What Went Wrong? stories for Obama.  Not exactly the message the Dems want going into these final weeks.

    Of course he'll win both NY and NJ, but the Media Narrative may hurt him in States the campaign wants and needs electorally where the numbers are a lot closer.

    Parent

    Loathe as I am to agree with anything out (none / 0) (#137)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:47:34 AM EST
    of DailyKos, I do think that this poll is fairly meaningless. Siena jumps around alot. They had Obama up by the same margin a few months ago, then had him up by around 14, now back to 5, etc. He's likely doing fine in New York.

    Parent
    When did the orange... (none / 0) (#138)
    by kredwyn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:48:17 AM EST
    become a polling measure?

    Parent
    I don't follow. All I'm saying is that Siena (none / 0) (#146)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:05:14 AM EST
    polls jump around alot, and that they've had Obama this low before then turned around to have him up by double digits.

    Parent
    Siena Polled 626 People In New York State (none / 0) (#152)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:13:18 AM EST
    is that considered a decent sampling for this kind of poll?


    Parent
    Yes. (none / 0) (#155)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:31:12 AM EST
    Quoting (4.66 / 3) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:54:39 AM EST
    a DK poll reminds me of Rush Limbaugh in 1992 and Karl Rove in 2006 when they both swore they had the "real poll numbers".

    I would take that poll out of contention.

    BTW, what do you think about the party stating in the UK paper that Obama needs to lead by 4-6 pts to count for "racial bias"? If that's true, he needs to be polling at 55% to have a chance of winning in Nov.

    do you suppose (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:58:30 AM EST
    there are enough of those cell phone only using college kids who don't show up in polls to make up for the Bradley effect? Maybe they even each other out and the polls become accurate again.

    Parent
    Apparently (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:01:28 AM EST
    the polls are able to adjust for cell phones but not racial bias. I'm sure that they've gotten better but I'm willing to bet the pollsters have some concrete numbers on cell phones to adjust the polls with. Racial bias is subjective.

    Parent
    We can't discount ... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:04:57 AM EST
    the racists with cell phones effect.

    ;)

    I think the cell phone issue has largely been debunked.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:08:15 AM EST
    it was in 2004 iirc. Honestly, the Obama campaign is beginning to sound like the Dean campaing in 2004--young people, cell phones, boots on the ground etc. The only difference I'm seeing right now is Dean was a balloon that burst and Obama seems to be a balloon that continually leaks air.

    Parent
    1 (1.00 / 1) (#113)
    by prose on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:13:58 AM EST
    I'm glad (none / 0) (#171)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 02:53:00 PM EST
    to know that I now have my own personal stalker who counts. Thanks!

    Parent
    balloon analogy is spot on (none / 0) (#85)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:35:41 AM EST
    best i have heard yet.

    Parent
    doesn't matter (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:16:01 AM EST
    there are a whole crop of people that are still pissed at BHO and will be up until the election over the way his camp treated HRC.  Many of those will say they are not voting BHO to a pollster and when they get to the booth their rights will trump their anger.  That is the number people are underestimating.  

    Parent
    Or there could be a lot of (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by tootired on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:25:51 AM EST
    Democratic women who are tepidly supporting Obama, and when they get into the voting booth see a woman's name on the ballot can't resist voting for her. I think this one might be a wash, and neither candidate should many eggs in the basket.

    Parent
    perhaps (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:34:46 AM EST
    but I am tainted by my own beliefs.  We will know who is right the first week in November.  I think Palin will have lost enough luster and McCain will be kicking himself in the arse for not picking Romney who is by far the strongest on economic issues from the right perspective candidates.  

    Parent
    Given that most state polls show Obama (4.50 / 2) (#1)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:38:45 AM EST
    a little behind and that most other national polls show either Obama a little behind or basically tied, I'm a little disinclined to trust a poll that shows him with a clear lead. Until supporting polls show up, this is an outlier.

    RCP (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:45:13 AM EST
    Some of the polls on RCP are old and immediately after the RNC.  I'm eagerly awaiting the next batch of polls.  Hotline/Diageo did have O up 1 but Gallup/Rasmussen had McCain leading.

    I know Research 2000 is a good company but I can't get my head around the Dkos sponsorship.

    I also want to see new CO and NM polls.  I'm really not all that worried about the Kerry blue states and I think they'll come home despite some of the handwringing.      

    Parent

    There was a Rasmussen Colorado poll (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:46:30 AM EST
    last night that had McCain up by 2.

    Parent
    None of the new state polls (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:55:54 AM EST
    that came out had any good news for Obama. I'm not really convinced that national polls mean anything unless someone can explain to me tbat they are somehow weighted so that HUGE leads in RED or BLUE states don't skew them. Obama could win CA by 90-10 and he isn't going to get bonus electoral college votes for it.

    Parent
    I'd say that the Virginia poll was good (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:58:07 AM EST
    news. I still find it unlikely that he will win Virginia, but 2 polls on the same day had good numbers for him.

    Parent
    i guess that's right (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:01:09 AM EST
    what i really meant was no poll had him with a lead. But, VA did go to a tie. But so did PA. And MN has gone to only +1 for Obama. And, what is wrong with Bill Richardson that he can't seem to deliver NM to the Dems?

    Parent
    Richardson (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:03:52 AM EST
    is an idiot imo, however, it's not his fault that we continually pick candidates who don't have broad electoral appeal.

    Parent
    if Obama (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:11:25 AM EST
    is supposed to be winning the latinos by large margins, just how bad must he be doing with the others to be losing in NM.  It doesn't make any sense.

    Parent
    I (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:18:56 AM EST
    think the problem that Obama has with latinos is turnout. It's no great shakes if you are winning the demographic by large numbers but huge numbers of them sit home.

    Parent
    and, as of yet, (none / 0) (#29)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:21:39 AM EST
    have little incentive to get out and vote.  What, exactly, will he do for them?  Answering that question will go a long ways toward making that support an electoral reality on November 4th.

    Parent
    The Incentive May Be As Much (none / 0) (#126)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:33:56 AM EST
    anti McCain as pro Obama as a reason to GOTV especially after the reign of anti-immigration terror of the last several years.

    Parent
    I'm not familiar with (none / 0) (#129)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:37:34 AM EST
    McCain's record on Immigration, but I imagine one can't be consistently, constantly re-elected for US Senator in Arizona and be anti-immigration or by working and legislating against the a sizable portion of your State's population.

    Parent
    Not Surprising You're Not Familiar (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:28:37 AM EST
    with McCain's immigration policies because these days it's hard to know where he stands. Even if we were once familiar with where McCain stood (which used to be in a pretty moderate place) his campaign promises don't resemble that stance much any more.

    My suspicion is that now--with his campaign in full cheek-to-cheek mode with his party's RW base--McCain is not going to go there (immigration policy moderation). But we'll see.

    And, of course, the issue is about perception. Maybe some Latino voters will remember McCain more for his previous stands than his recent ones.

    I suspect any Republican with a record not consistently and vocally anti-repressive immigration policies is going to be branded with the nativist Repub brand and be a target for a vote-the-bum-out response among Latinos. This has been a harsh, harsh time for this border security rah rah.

    Parent

    the question still remains, t hough, (none / 0) (#161)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57:26 AM EST
    that if he's as anti-immigration as Dems are willing to paint him as, why have the voters in a State with a strong immigrant population decided to return him again and again?

    I'm not challenging you, of course.  I'm just wondering aloud how the Dems -- if they decide to take the "McCain is anti-Immigrant" track when speaking with Hispanice, Latino, Asian, etc. voters -- are going to answer that Consistently Re-Elected question.

    Parent

    That's Okay (none / 0) (#166)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 01:09:37 PM EST
    I don't feel challenged because I am just feeling my way with understanding all of this myself.

    Before this year (or maybe last?) I thought McCain stood out as moderate among Republicans on the issue of immigration. So, I suspect that might be part of his image in Arizona.

    In fact, he was seen by fellow Republicans in Arizona as pretty vile, apparently, thanks to his part in producing a moderate immigration bill with Ted Kennedy. Earlier this year, during the primaries some Arizona Repubs were fulminating darkly against him--which could work in his favor, I guess with Arizona Latinos.

    Except, as I said, he seems to be backtracking more into the standard Repub embrace on immigration so...who knows?

    Parent

    thank you (none / 0) (#167)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 01:16:17 PM EST
    for your kind, reasonable response.

    I only added in the "I'm not challenging you" part because sometimes people will mistake genuine curiosity and a willingness to continue the conversation with "challenging" what they're saying and, therefore, not on "their" side.

    Happily, you weren't one of those people.

    :-)

    Parent

    Oh, I Know How Tone Can Be Misread (none / 0) (#169)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 01:37:29 PM EST
    One of the reasons I write such long posts--longer than they should be, I think sometimes--is that when I've written short and pithy ones they seem to be taken as sass--sometimes, of course, they have been!

    Parent
    AZ (none / 0) (#168)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 01:17:27 PM EST
    Is also a strong anti-immigration state.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#170)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 01:40:08 PM EST
    Not the link in my message above--'fulminating darkly'--which describes the longstanding schism between McCain and elements of the Arizona Republican party esp. around the immigration issue.

    Parent
    maverick for comprehensive Immigration reform. (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by insanelysane on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:20:31 AM EST

    The latino community , here, in ag country sees McCain as fair and balanced on that particular issue. Obama...not so much.

    Parent

    Once Upon A Time... (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:31:25 AM EST
    Now, eh, maybe not so much.

    But who knows, he could swing back again. But I wouldn't count on it with his RW base watching and the race so tight.

    Parent

    NM is also heavily military and ex-military (none / 0) (#62)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:17:31 AM EST
    Winning among latinos alone does not win NM.

    Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that - just the impression I got living in Colorado for many years and visiting NM.

    Parent

    I think you are correct (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:12:45 AM EST
    on that.  I love New Mexico and it is one of the places we are talking about getting old in.  Some of my family were actually settlers in New Mexico.  It is very mulitcultural in many places....Good Lord look at Santa Fe and Taos, I can't quit looking at Santa Fe but I'm very visual.  I spent the bicentennial summer in Farmington with my best friend because our families couldn't stand us anymore. There is a lot that makes New Mexico tick.  My family also loved visiting the Navajo reservations and my grandparents went twice a year to Ojo Caliente to sit in stinky water.  Then on the way back we bought apples, pinon nuts, and pottery from the Navajo.  I got most of my grandma Vera's Navajo pottery when she passed but I was really the only grandkid who got to go with them and knew what it was.

    Parent
    Sounds like a wonderful way to grow up (none / 0) (#147)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:06:46 AM EST
    It seems to be a popular place for military families to retire. They were stationed there, or near there, and loved it, so come back.  That's what my aunt and uncle did, anyway. The cost of living is relatively low, so it is easier to retire there than, say, Colorado Springs.

    I wouldn't mind ending up there myself - I love Santa Fe and Taos too.

    Parent

    Still wrong. (none / 0) (#43)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:57:05 AM EST
    There were two VA polls,  SUSA shows Obama with a 4 point lead 50-46,  the other shows it a tie at 48-48.  

    Unambiguously good news on both those polls for Obama imho, and obviously it can't be characterised as Obama not being in front anywhere.

    Parent

    SUSA (none / 0) (#148)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:07:00 AM EST
    Had Obama +4 in VA yesterday.

    Parent
    That was the only good news ... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:06:36 AM EST
    Obama got from the new FOX/RAS state polls.

    Parent
    what? (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:58:26 AM EST
    no bonus points?  

    damn

    :-)

    Parent

    there are only (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:29:29 AM EST
    bonus points in dem primaries.

    Parent
    ah, gotcha! (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:41:15 AM EST
    thanks

    :-)

    Parent

    my opinion is that (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:20:27 AM EST
    National Polls help to set the Media Narrative for the campaigns, but the State Polls are where the real money -- or I should say the Real Race -- is at.

    Doesn't mean squat if you're ahead or behind by 5 points nationally if you're losing or fighting for the States your Party's Nominee won last time and your Electoral College numbers are drifting decidedly downward while your Opponent's are steadily climbing up.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#4)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:47:22 AM EST
    I know that.  That's why I want to see new CO polls to see if other polls see the same thing.

    Parent
    I wonder about it too. Even last week when (none / 0) (#5)
    by Teresa on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:53:34 AM EST
    every tracking poll I know of showed McCain ahead, this one still had Obama up. That's at least a six point variance when McCain is up 4 in many polls but behind by two or more in this poll.

    BTD seems to trust their internals so maybe it's right.

    Parent

    10% more democrats (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:14:11 AM EST
    in that poll on a regular basis.  Throw out the extra 10% of demos and make it a clean poll.  He explains the difference but the fact remains, when you sample 10% more demos you get more dem votes.  

    Parent
    the last i read (none / 0) (#103)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:04:22 AM EST
    was that after the repug convention the dems had lost their lead in the party identification category and now there are equal numbers of voetrs identifying as repugs and dems.

    Parent
    Not Lost, But Slipped (none / 0) (#135)
    by daring grace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:43:58 AM EST
    Gallup

    The text explains that this is common after conventions although the Dems didn't have an increase (which the writer attributes to the fact that their positives were already pretty high). Likewise, the Republicans' increase was very strong, but may likely be because their numbers were so low before.

    It also states that these increases tend to settle down after the initial convention buzz (I wonder if Palin's star power could change that.) And that the electoral landscape still favors the Dems.

    Parent

    I'm disinclined to believe a poll (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Shainzona on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:05:46 AM EST
    ...labeled "Daily Kos".  They probably already have their poll results for next week written and ready to post.

    Parent
    Kos just funded the poll... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Addison on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:19:06 AM EST
    ...it's done by Research 2000 and all the internals are there for you to see and argue about.

    Parent
    Kind of like research results on new drugs... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Shainzona on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:51:10 AM EST
    that's been funded by the Pharmaceutical companies?  Results you can believe in.  

    Very.  Suspect.

    Parent

    The internals are RIGHT THERE... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Addison on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:11:50 AM EST
    ...if you find them suspect argue about that.


    Parent
    See the comment above about... (none / 0) (#115)
    by Shainzona on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:19:19 AM EST
    10% more Dems in this poll...at a time when Dem ID is at its lowest in years.

    Parent
    Ridiculous (5.00 / 0) (#120)
    by andgarden on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:27:41 AM EST
    You seem not to have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

    Parent
    Do you trust Ras? (none / 0) (#149)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:08:51 AM EST
    Their funded by Fox if one follows your line of reasoning then shouldn't we also discount them?

    Parent
    Say what you like about Kos (none / 0) (#90)
    by Faust on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:44:17 AM EST
    he's not interested in poll massaging imo.

    Parent
    Say what you like about Kos. . . (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:51:54 AM EST
    or rather, what I like, and you're likely to get banned here!

    Parent
    With Kos it's all BO all the time. (none / 0) (#92)
    by Shainzona on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:48:37 AM EST
    So I suspect that you're wrong and that he is definitely interested in massaging any poll he can - in BO's favor.

    Parent
    I have to give ya a heh rating (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:35:51 AM EST
    Not an outlier (none / 0) (#89)
    by Faust on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:43:25 AM EST
    It's very consistent with the trend that the R2k has been showing, i.e. movement to Obama. I suppose you could say that the entire R2k poll's methodology favors democrats since it has been pretty consistently Obama's best poll since Kos started it, but that's a different issue altogether.

    I bet we see movement in Gallup and Ras to show a tie or McCain +1 based on how they track relative to the R2k poll.

    Parent

    So if a poll's methodology (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by frankly0 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:10:17 AM EST
    consistently favors Democrats -- how and why should anyone take its absolute numbers seriously (as opposed to the relative numbers from day to day)?

    Why act as if the results of such a poll should be taken with the same seriousness that, say, a Gallup poll might deserve, if the Gallup poll doesn't exhibit such a tilt?

    And why act as though it's a fine poll overall, and should be used along with polls like the Gallup to calculate an aggregate poll result?

    Parent

    And, very importantly, (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by frankly0 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:11:33 AM EST
    if the methodology favors Democrats, why pretend that the DKos sponsorship isn't in fact affecting its results?

    Parent
    Several points (none / 0) (#118)
    by Faust on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:23:16 AM EST
    1. I said it could be an issue with methodology. I have no idea personally but I've seen not a single good argument that it does have a problem. It might have a problem and it might not. "This poll was comissioned by Kos" is not, by itself, an argument anymore than "Ras is comissioned by Fox" is an argument against Ras. I would require a direct discussion of its methodology as compared with the other polls to be convinced of much of anything. If it hsa bias I want to know the specific way in which the bias is produced in the poll.

    2. Lets assume for the moment that there IS bias in Ras due to Fox and R2k due to Kos. It still doesn't make the R2k an outlier. It just makes it biased. Outlier and biased are two different things. That was the point of my original comment.


    Parent
    It is certainly (none / 0) (#140)
    by frankly0 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:51:04 AM EST
    a far more damning fact about a set of polls if they are biased than if they are, occasionally, outliers. Outliers can simply come about by chance. But bias basically means that their absolute numbers can't be taken with anything like the seriousness of other, unbiased polls in any instance.

    And as far as whether that bias exists, it is sufficient that it deviates in a certain direction consistently from the actual truth of the matter. If we consider other well regarded polls such as the Gallup poll as accurate to the ground truth over time, and the DKos poll always deviates in a specific direction from it, then there almost certainly is a methodological problem with the DKos poll.

    I won't believe the DKos polls' absolute numbers, or its methodology, until I see that, over time, it goes as often against the Democrats, when compared to reliable polls, as it now does against the Republicans.

    Parent

    I don't disagree (none / 0) (#150)
    by Faust on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:10:49 AM EST
    with your first paragraph.

    However, I have no reason at this time to believe that Gallup should function as the baseline for accuracy. Do you have data showing that Gallup is a better pollster than Research 2000? No arguments from authority please. Actual data showing that it has been more accurate in predicting election results.

    Parent

    Except that (none / 0) (#172)
    by coigue on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 03:23:08 PM EST
    state poll results lagged behind national polls after the roll out of Sarah Palin.

    Could be the same thing here.

    Parent

    a kos poll? (4.50 / 2) (#22)
    by kenosharick on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:13:32 AM EST
    might be as good as a zogby poll, but I doubt it.

    It's a Research 2000 poll, and all the internals (none / 0) (#45)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:58:55 AM EST
    and raw data is released along with the numbers.  I don't see why it's any less credible than a Fox poll.

    Parent
    exactly my point (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:04:03 AM EST
    I think Kos releasing all his internals makes his poll worthy of being rad along side all the other tracking polls.

    thats why I follow people who average the 4 tracking polls daily.

    no single 1 of them is 100% but averaging them out and watching the trends tells us alot.

    and right now the race is tied, and McCain has been slowly dropping

    Parent

    Totally Rad! (none / 0) (#54)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:09:14 AM EST
    Kos releasing all his internals makes his poll worthy of being rad

    ;)

    Parent

    It's an actual, real poll. . . (none / 0) (#65)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:18:54 AM EST
    by a respected polling organization -- not withstanding that it always (over it's admittedly short life so far) seems to be running about four points better for Obama than most other polls.

    Parent
    Their track record begs to differ. (none / 0) (#77)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:29:49 AM EST
    Research 2000 are rated comfortably ahead of standard Zogby polls,  and are on another planet from Zogby Interactive polls.  

    R2000 have a pollster introduced error of 1.73
    Zogby is 2.16
    Zogby Interactive is 5.73

    link

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#142)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:54:23 AM EST
    that R2000 is a good polling company.  But the Dkos sponsorship makes it sound odd sort of like if there was a National Enquirer/Gallup Poll.  

    Parent
    or a Fox Rasmussen poll. (none / 0) (#162)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:58:35 AM EST
    At the end of the day Research 2000 have put their name on it as well,  and are lending their credibility to it.  Theres no reason to believe that they would squander that by fiddling the figures to make Obama look good imho.   I suppose the fact that it is an LV screen does mean that there is some potential for bias creeping in if Kos had input on the screen,  however it seems pretty reliably picking up a national trend away from McCain which the other tracking polls are also getting.

    Parent
    Senate polls (4.50 / 2) (#34)
    by MikeDitto on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:36:25 AM EST
    I would make a plea that TalkLeft do more coverage on the Senate polls, and the Senate races in general.

    The Senate, after all, is the Supreme Court's last line of defense against rabid ideologues cloaked in the mantle of "strict constructionism."

    If, God forbid, John McCain wins, the Senate will be the only thing standing in the way of another Bork or Alito replacing Ginsburg or Stevens.

    BTD: This isn't August anymore (4.50 / 2) (#50)
    by Cream City on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:05:18 AM EST
    and there's less time than your headline suggests.  When you're back . . . it's 9/16 now (ditto for a fix to your first sentence:-).

    Voting in Ohio starts in 2 Weeks (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:20:08 AM EST
    Do you know where your candidates are?

    Parent
    Yer cracking me up (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:48:20 AM EST
    I think I just saw the next Obama ad.  It's 3:00 am and the phone rings........Obama is at his desk in the darkened oval office with the desk lamp on and he's working.......McCain is sitting slumped on one of the oval offices sofa's and his mouth is hanging open while he's snoring and his top denture is falling partially out.

    Parent
    that's a good one (none / 0) (#144)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:59:39 AM EST
    they should get on it ;-) It's 3 am - where is your president?

    Parent
    On the other hand (none / 0) (#71)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:22:10 AM EST
    Having over a month to get out the vote can only help.

    Parent
    Obama will gain (4.50 / 2) (#55)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:11:51 AM EST
    today and tomorrow, which of course exactly what I predicted last week.  Which of course goes against the "stop talking about Sarah Palin" meme you have been espousing.  

    Her star is fading, (I said that), her interview with Gibson was so-so, and they KNOW it which is why they are still not allowing her to take questions.  Which of course is only going to give the media bloodthirst, which of course I predicted.

    I also predicted that the economy would tank when the stimulus ran out.  And that the polling numbers would would roll with them.  

    Obama has barely changed his message, Biden is still lobbing shots at Palin and McCain and the left wing blogs are still chasing Palin stories non-stop.

    Hmmmm.. Seems to me that the economy, a fading star and the big Palinpalooza is not sustainable.  It would seem to me that lying and lying some more is not working all that well either, which of course makes the media (hell even the WSJ called her out) more bloodthirsty does not play well either.

    So tell me, when the polls close today where will Obama be? Where will he be in 10 days?


    Amusing... (5.00 / 4) (#100)
    by ks on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:56:11 AM EST
    It's amazing that some folks still think that "talking", actually it was and is obsessing about Palin, was and is a good idea.  Especially since the unhinged reaction to her from the Lefty blogs helped create Palinpalozza in the first place.  Of course McCain's convention bounce, which a lot of wags thought he might not even have, is going to fade but it appears to be going to undecideds and he has certainly gained in EC map.  This race is a dead heat when it should be a stroll of Obama.  

    Parent
    Ras doesn't show ... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:16:52 AM EST
    an Obama gain.  It shows a drop in McCain's number.  Obama's number stayed the same.

    Undecideds gained.

    Parent

    ras isn't the only poll (none / 0) (#75)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:28:20 AM EST
    and the gains will come.  There is almost a complete lack of big picture strategy with the avoid palin at all costs meme.  The only reason for daddy macs bounce was palinpalooza.  If the media and left blogs had stayed away from her, daddy mac would be gaining.  More importantly, foxnews and most republicans have been hoping the economy would simply "hold" until November which is exactly why we are in this mess.

    The polls will reflect the peoples disgust with the economy, fortunately for the democrats, they passed a stimulus bill which allowed the bubble to burst in september as opposed to July.  Now you have 45 days to watch the economy spiral and McCains support with it.  

    Parent

    And you fail to take into (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by frankly0 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:33:31 AM EST
    account the fact that there is almost always a fade in a convention bounce -- indeed, it is usually far more extreme than it has been so far with McCain. What's quite remarkable to most savvy observers is how long the bounce has stayed in place, far past its natural appointed time.

    Yet now you are taking the very gradual fade -- as opposed to the typically quite rapid fade -- as evidence of something the Obama side must be doing that's very successful, such as attacking Palin relentlessly.

    My own guess is that some of these attacks might be taking some toll on the perception of Palin, but that they come at a great cost to the long term success of the Obama campaign. The media attacks do likely make people think less positively of Palin, but, as all negative attacks do, they also greatly diminish the public's opinion of the attacker: in this case both the media and the Obama campaign.

    And why will it be a problem if the media's own reputation for fairness is in the dump? Because the McCain camp can then successfully dismiss all media criticisms as based on irrational hatred. This means they can lie more and distort more, and no one will be believed as objective when they call him out on those lies and distortions.

    That will not work out well for Obama.

    Parent

    Putting it simply ... (none / 0) (#159)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:53:34 AM EST
    a slowly fading bounce doesn't indicate that Obama is doing anything correctly.

    Parent
    you are correct (none / 0) (#165)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 01:08:50 PM EST
    bounces can fade, sometimes quickly:

    "Historically, this has been truer on the Democratic side. Jimmy Carter slid from 63 percent after his convention to 51 percent on Election Day 1976, Michael Dukakis from 54 percent to 46 percent in 1988; and Bill Clinton from 59 percent to 43 percent in 1992." centerforpolitics

    So a gradual fade based on the excitement of an unknown with no access to the press other than scripted interviews, is  entirely expected.

    Sympathy for victims of press attacks?

    Did Bill Clinton get a majority of americans giving him sympathy? Hillary Clinton? Geraldine Ferraro?  Dukakis?

    Palin will receive sympathy moreso than the aforementioned but Americans will say that the media got it right for the most part and will come to the opinion that she is not ready.  

    I argue that O needs to be stronger and conduct more press conferences as it is important to look presidential.

    But I have long argued that the economy is the achilles heel this year and with 18 months on the trail O is not going to make a significant enough error for the people of this country not to lump McCain's economics with Bush.  In fact, in the latest Gallup poll less than 3% of those voting for McCain were voting for him because of his change/reform platform.

    Parent

    Uh... (4.50 / 2) (#114)
    by BrandingIron on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:15:10 AM EST

    ...I came here to see how everyone's doing and was thrown off a bit by the subject line.  I think you mean 9/16...unless you're talking about month old polls, LOL.

    Kos? (3.00 / 3) (#23)
    by supertroopers on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:13:42 AM EST
    Desperation.

    McCain-Palin are still enjoying a growing Palin bump as the press keeps attacking her. Not to mention she will be very effective in rural PN, all of CO, etc.

    Based on what? (none / 0) (#52)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:08:24 AM EST
    All the polling averages show the Palin-McSame bump dissipating.  Gallup has gone from McCain up by 5 down to him up by 2.  The Research 2000 is trending away from McCain, as is the Rasmussen national tracker. Rasmussen show McCain by 1 today,  down from a 2 and 3 point leads from the last two releases of the poll.

    Palin's net favourability ratings have dropped through the floor over the last week or so.

    The trend is obvious to me,  but I'm obviously seeing something different to you.

    I'd be interested in hearing what you are basing your interpretation of a still growing Palin bump on other than wishful thinking?

    Parent

    roflmao (3.00 / 2) (#160)
    by environmentally blue on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:56:31 AM EST
    I'm cracking up with you guys.  

    it's a shame what this site has become.  But, you obviously chose it.

    But really, your blinded pushing of Obama through polls is just too much.  Oh yes, now quoting biased blog sites who just started their own polls as a reputable tracking. lol

    and

    " Ras ticks towards Obama, McCain's lead sliced to 1,"   ???? WHAT???? LOL  Oh yes, you must have worked for the stock market in another life... It's tumbling, crashing....1 pt down on mcCain and that's "Sliced and ticking towards Obama".

    Do you really think you're deluding people this way?

    sad, so sad.  Say anything to promote a cadidate, even if it means a divorce from reality.

    good luck.

    Nobody is deluding anybody (none / 0) (#173)
    by rdandrea on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:22:23 PM EST
    Numbers are numbers.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If you want to ascribe more to them than that, God bless you.  Go for it.

    But to anyone who has ever paid for, used, or even simply looked at a poll before, polls are just numbers.  Data, you know? Numbers that plug into whatever your model is and either validate it or disprove it.

    What's your model?

    Parent

    Yaaawn. (none / 0) (#174)
    by JoeA on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 05:58:43 AM EST
    All 4 tracking polls have shown consistent movement away from McCain over the last week.  Are you in denial or what?

    Parent
    Disturbing internal ... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:01:13 AM EST
    from Fox/Ras PA poll:

    McCain is viewed favorably by 60%, up three points from a week ago. Obama's ratings are at 52% favorable, down three points.

    I would otherwise tend to discount this poll which shows the race in PA tied 47-47, but this factoid jumped out at me.

    Even FL which Fox/Ras has McCain winning by 5%, his favorable rating is only 56%.

    I guess the Big Dog (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:09:31 AM EST
    is right:

    "Strong and wrong beats weak and right every time." (or something like that)

    McCain is making his case -- even if I disagree with it -- clearly and more forcefully than Obama (who tends more toward Professor-speak and Lecturing than Neighbor-on-the-Porch-speak interspersed with This Is How I Will Fix This) is right now and it's being reflected in the Polls.

    I fear any Team Obama staff shake-up would further drive down his Experience numbers, his Leadership numbers or his Who Is Ready To Lead numbers.

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#74)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:26:43 AM EST
    I was struck by a quote from a 75 yr old lady in the Orlando Sentinal this morning.  She saw Palin and said something like 'She just strikes me as someone who can handle anything'.

    That is what people look for in tough times.  Not necesarily the best person on the issues.

    Parent

    someone above (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:39:39 AM EST
    spoke of the Big Picture and then appeared to celebrate that the economy was likely to "spiral" from now to Election Day and, somehow, this was good for Obama.

    But the Polls seem to indicate on the Experience Question, McCain consistently polls much better than Obama.  And if people are watching the economy spiral and friends, neighbors, family and even themselves get laid off, they are MUCH less likely to put an inexperienced guy at the helm.

    If that lady you quoted is any indication, then it appears as if McCain-Palin are successfully branding themselves as not only Mavericks, but also as the Ones Who Can Fix Things.  Doesn't mean it's correct or that I agree with it.  But the branding of it is, so far, very successful.

    McCain-Palin = mavericks and stopping corruption/greed

    Obama-Biden = ambiguous Change and not the other guys

    is what it's shaping up to be.

    If there's a different, concise, bullet pointed and easy to remember and repeat message from Obama, I've yet to find it.  

    Perhaps it's buried somewhere in yesterday's five or six paragraph response to the financial crisis?

    Parent

    McCain's top Economic Advisor = Gramm (none / 0) (#95)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:51:34 AM EST
    Gramm =  US is a nation of whiners and is in a "mental recession"

    Gramm is also one of the most responsible for the deregulation in financial services in the US that lead to the current problems.

    Not sure how you can try to spin Lehman Bros going bankrupt and the other economic problems in the US as good news for John McCain,  especially given the many videos out there of him saying he "doesnt understand the economy".

    Parent

    yesterday was an interesting (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:51:44 AM EST
    opportunity to see how each campaign would craft their message to help alleviate Voter's worries about the Economy.

    McCain started the day with a simple, concise, easy to remember statement focused on the strength of the American Worker and the Greed of the Fat Cats in Corporations.  He also was smart enough to get out there and say this, thereby giving the Media a visual on Monday morning as the crisis was being discovered by voters of him making the statement.  They woke up, learned of the new twist in this ongoing crisis and saw McCain's face and heard his voice.

    Obama started the day by releasing an unnecessarily wordy, five or six paragraph statement which said a lot of things about deregulation and policy, but -- shockingly -- exempted McCain from any blame.  No face time, no visual of him speaking.  Just a written statement.

    I agree that McCain's views on the economy are now what is needed.  But we're talking politics here and, politically, McCain's Team is running circles around Obama right now.

    McCain's current message -- until voters learn what he said months or weeks ago -- resonates with voters.  They KNOW it's not THEIR fault the company they work for is going under and McCain gets that.  For some, that may be their first impression of McCain as it pertains to the economy.

    Obama is offering his economic philosophy and his thoughts on deregulation.  And, for some, they were denied a first impression on Obama as it pertains to the economy because what he offered first was written and they saw McCain's face first.

    Which message will a worker with two jobs, five mouths to feed and insanely growing debt latch onto because it's easy to follow and easy to understand and there was a visual and voice to go with it?

    Parent

    eek! (none / 0) (#163)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 12:03:25 PM EST
    I meant to write that McCain's views on the economy are NOT what is needed, not "now" what is needed.

    Oh man.  No dessert for me tonight.  Eeek!

    My apologies.

    Preview is your friend.

    Parent

    Did the Big Dog not also say Obama (none / 0) (#79)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:31:56 AM EST
    would win comfortably?

    I'm hoping the sage of Little Rock comes up trumps on that as well.

    Parent

    he also maintained (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Lil on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:34:37 AM EST
    until June that Hillary would win.

    Parent
    Depending on how you count the votes (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:38:27 AM EST
    and if are arguing from a certain perspective,  some people think he was right on that too.

    Parent
    regardless, (none / 0) (#107)
    by Lil on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:09:48 AM EST
    Gore won in 2000 too. I love the Clintons but assurance from them right now do not appease me. Obama regaining a healthy lead would.

    Parent
    Come on, the dog doesn't play to lose (none / 0) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:42:23 AM EST
    and when he does...does anyone make humble look any better than he does?  Cripes, he puts his humble in a tux and takes it to dinner with him.

    Parent
    I find myself (none / 0) (#25)
    by frankly0 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:17:08 AM EST
    wondering how much of the relevant "methodology" of polls is really revealed by the demographic numbers they report.

    My guess is that if the demographic model of this poll is reasonable, then it probably differs little from, say, Gallup's demographic model -- and Gallup's tracking poll shows a consistent 2 pt edge for McCain -- over 6 pts deviation from this poll.

    And the problem is that a 6 pt deviation, or thereabouts, over many days can't be explained away as random fluctuations. There must be some other methodological difference underlying the discrepancy.

    And that methodological difference, again, is pretty unlikely to be revealed in the demographic models.

    well unlike ANY of the other polls (none / 0) (#32)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:29:42 AM EST
    the Daily Kos poll, releases ALL their internals so that you can look it up yourself, and if you dont agree with something you can rework it yourself,

    anyone get the Rass internals or Gallup?

    Parent

    Did you not read my comment at all? (none / 0) (#78)
    by frankly0 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:30:32 AM EST
    My point is precisely that methodological assumptions are very likely NOT reducible to "internals" of the demographic model.

    Parent
    The Kos poll has ... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:37:05 AM EST
    the 45 and over age bracket making up 49% of the sample.  In 2004, it made up 54% of the vote.

    Parent
    Age demographic (none / 0) (#44)
    by pooks1976 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:58:50 AM EST
    I looked at the exit poll #'s for 2004 and did a little math to see how much turnout would have to increase in the under 45 set to make the Kos poll correct.  According to my calculations, Obama would have to increase turnout of the under 45 set by 22% or 12,395,920 more voters than in 2004, if the over 45 set vote in the same #'s as 2004.  

    I don't keep up with how registration is going, so I don't know how possible that is.  

    Parent

    I guess it's possible ... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:14:47 AM EST
    Democratic vote totals jumped about 8m from '00-'04.

    And registration is high.

    Parent

    I wonder (none / 0) (#99)
    by CST on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:54:52 AM EST
    How much of that has to do with the changing demographics of the country.

    I think people tend to forget that those "youth voters" are actually a really large baby-boom that eclipses the Gen X. group by a very large margin.  And those are new voters, who weren't old enough to vote last time.  That's not to say that turnout is higher among youth voters today, just that even with a low turnout there are a whole lot more of them.

    Parent

    Quinnipiac NJ: Obama 48-45 (none / 0) (#33)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:35:38 AM EST
    I think we'll still ... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:40:33 AM EST
    win NJ, but this may indicate why PA is slipping away.

    Parent
    All I can say about PA is (none / 0) (#42)
    by votermom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:53:20 AM EST
    that Bob Casey Jr. is lucky he's not up for re-election this year.

    Parent
    Don't worry about NJ (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by skuld1 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:43:02 AM EST
    I live in NJ...  Obama will win here.

    IMO MI, WI, and PA would flip before NJ would... so if NJ is legitimately in danger of going McCain, the election is already lost...

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#76)
    by votermom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:28:56 AM EST
    Hillary or Bill will have to campaign in NJ to get back the working class Hispanic & Asian vote.

    Parent
    just how much water (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:47:20 AM EST
    are the Clintons going to have to carry for Obama in order for him to win?

    HE should get to NJ and sell HIMSELF to the working-class, Hispanic and Asian voters.  In my opinion, if he can't do that, he doesn't deserve to be the standard bearer for the Party that built it's reputation and strength on helping those voters who struggle paycheck-to-paycheck or who have chosen to begin new lives in America.  

    At the end of the day, it is Obama's name on the ballot and Obama's policies that will affect these voters, not the Clintons'.  He needs to sell this himself.

    And NJ shouldn't even be in play this year.  It's astonishing the numbers are that close.

    Parent

    I agree with you but (none / 0) (#106)
    by votermom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:09:26 AM EST
    the problem is they won't listen to him. They love the Clintons and he trashed them. I think they'll stay home unless the Clintons manage to change their minds.
    Of course that means it will be less time for them to do the same in swing states.
    What do I know. Maybe it's safest to expect NJ to come home and concentrate on the swing states.
    shrug

    Parent
    I trust NJ (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by ccpup on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:32:26 AM EST
    will go for Obama in the end.  But if he's having a difficult time connecting to voters in what is a solidly Democratic State, what does that say about his political skills or his chances of connecting to voters in Battleground States?

    If they won't listen to him, then perhaps he needs to stop and listen to THEM.  And, from that, offer policies, ideas, etc which indicate he not only heard and understood them, he also has a plan to alleviate and address their concerns.

    As far as it being close right now, I think with most elections it's always the hope of the Opponent that a Solid State will become one in which the Dem has to invest either time or money, therefore losing time in a Battleground State.  It appears as if NJ may be shaping up to be one of those States for Obama.

    Parent

    Is it just me, or does NJ not have a track (none / 0) (#98)
    by JoeA on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:53:26 AM EST
    record of looking almost winnable for GOP politicians,  and they invariably lose.

    I really don't see NJ as a swing state,  it will end up voting solidly for Obama.  If Obama loses NJ then he's already lost in a landslide anyway.

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:42:13 AM EST
    backs up another poll from NJ. Are Obama's chances in NJ fading? It certainly looks like it if the last 2 polls are correct.

    Parent
    My concern is coat tails. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Mshepnj on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:09:13 AM EST
    I would like to see Linda Stender win in NJ7 which seemed very likely earlier this year, but I'm not so sure now.

    There are also other typically Republican seats that I'd like to see flipped to D, but I'm not sure how long Obama's coat tails are.

    Parent

    RAS Daily Tracking just out (none / 0) (#37)
    by rdandrea on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:38:17 AM EST
    McCain by 1.

    Obama has held steady for the last three days, while McCain has dropped two points in two days.

    Looks like the Palin bounce is over, or maybe it's just voter pushback on all the lies.


    Problem is ... (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:06:13 AM EST
    McCain's bounce is falling into undecided, not over to Obama.

    Parent
    That's OK (none / 0) (#82)
    by rdandrea on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:33:52 AM EST
    If they were originally undecideds that had gone over to McCain after the convention, then that's not inconsistent with either his bounce being over or people having second thoughts about him.

    Obama is actually +1 over the last 5 days.

    Parent

    Okay for you maybe ... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:51:24 AM EST
    not for me.  To me this indicates that McCain would win by 4.5% if the election were held today.

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    The election won't be held today (none / 0) (#122)
    by rdandrea on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:31:41 AM EST
    n/t

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    all about the undecideds (none / 0) (#108)
    by Faust on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:10:14 AM EST
    really for the longest time Obama's been hanging out around 46-47 percent. McCain's been very close to that as well. Fact of the matter is that this is just going to be close.

    It's going to come down to

    voter registration vs vote suppression

    and

    Bradley effect vs Bush hatred

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    And identity politics (none / 0) (#123)
    by tootired on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:32:02 AM EST
    and anger at the DNC.

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    Obama support over-counted in polls (none / 0) (#46)
    by Exeter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:59:20 AM EST
    First of all, the Help America Vote Act is going to be a disaster for Obama-- hundreds of thousands of people have been lost in the reconfiguration of voter registration roles that has occurred nationwide.  Add into that alot of new voter id laws at the state level, we're going to feel the pinch.

    Second, the Bradley Effect is still very much with us.

         

    My own fear is that (none / 0) (#48)
    by votermom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:01:26 AM EST
    if the election is close, the GOP will be able to cheat successfully.

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    Oh the irony of a close race (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:39:51 AM EST
    that shouldn't even be close.  If Obama wasn't so Republican lite we'd be smokin.

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    well (none / 0) (#70)
    by connecticut yankee on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:20:58 AM EST
    Still 7 weeks to go. My guess would be that whoever happens to have a good last week could win it.

    Demographics... (none / 0) (#80)
    by mike in dc on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:32:29 AM EST
    ...Assuming an increase in African-American turnout and Latino turnout a bit over and above the increase in white turnout, if Obama captures these kinds of percentages there (about 95% of African-American votes, 65-70% of Latino votes), he can win a majority of the vote if he just gets around 36% of the white vote.  If he gets 40% of the white vote (which I think is still doable), he wins big in both the popular vote and the electoral college.  If he wins 45% of the white vote (which I think only happens in the event of a near-total collapse by McCain), Obama will hit his support ceiling of about 54-57%, and 400+ EV.  I'm still leaning towards Obama by more than a few points, though I'm revising downward from 6-12 points to a more likely 4-8 point range.  

    What will bring the hispanic voters out? (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by votermom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:42:19 AM EST
    I haven't seen them engaged on any of the issues yet?

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    It's just an opinion (none / 0) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:21:39 AM EST
    but the Hispanic vote comes out when their loyalty is due.  They respond to those who have been there for them.  I like this about them.  You can't really sucker them.  Either you care about them or you don't and if you do they show and if you don't they don't.

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    The hispanic vote? (none / 0) (#101)
    by rooge04 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:57:05 AM EST
    There is no way Obama will get 70%. Maybe closer to 60%...but 70% is pure dreaming.

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    And when adjusted for election fraud... (none / 0) (#105)
    by Dadler on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:06:36 AM EST
    ...the polls reveal that Americans still largely have their heads in the sand about the ability of their nation to even hold a fair and accountable election. Mind boggling and utterly inexcusable.  

    As a result, charged Susan Greenhalgh, a spokeswoman for watchdog group Voter Action, the systems on which Americans will decide the race between Barack Obama and John McCain in November are "scandalously flawed"' and "the integrity of this election is in question."



    PPP OH: McCain 48-44. Mammouth NJ: Obama 49-41. (none / 0) (#121)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:29:16 AM EST
    Thx for the links and a LOL (none / 0) (#143)
    by skuld1 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:55:28 AM EST
    ... I don't think I've ever seen Monmouth misspelled like that before :P

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    Am I reading something wrong, or (none / 0) (#151)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:10:58 AM EST
    should the post title refer to the poll as 9/16 and the dates covered as 9/13-9/15?

    It is September, isn't it?

    BTD is trying ... (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:32:17 AM EST
    to buy us an extra month.

    We could probably use it too.

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