home

The Polls - 9/19

We now have 5 organizations I know of doing daily tracking polls of the Presidential race - Gallup, Rasmussen, DKos/R2000, Hotline/Diageo and the Battleground poll. The trend this week in all 5 has been clearly and decisively in Obama's favor.

Gallup has gone from a 2 point McCain lead in polling in the 9/12-14 period to a 4 point Obama lead in the 9/15-17 period - and Obama now leads in the tracker, 48-44. More . . .

Ras has moved from a McCain 3 point lead for the period 9/10-14 to a tie in the 9/15-17 period.

The Battleground Poll has moved from a 4 point McCain lead in the 9/9-11 period, to a tie in the 9/18 poll (which includes the 9/9 and 9/11 dates, so Obama would be up 4 in the 9/17-18 period.)

The Hotline/Diageo poll has actually shown, imo, the strangest results. While it has Obama up 4 currently - this is no change in the race, in essence for 10 days. In any event, it shows Obama up 4 currently.

Finally, the DKos/R2000 poll now has Obama up 7, 49-42. The trend in this poll is clear as it started in the 9/9-11 with Obama up 47-45. The first two day actually pushed the race back to a tie, 47-47, for the 9/11-13 period. But the last 6 days of pollins, particularly the last 3 days have been all Obama. In the last single days of polling, the DKos/R2000 poll has had Obama up 5, 8 and 8.

Clearly, the extreme defensiveness of the Palinpaloozers notwithstanding, the driving force in the strong move towards Obama has been the economic news this week along with Obama's strong campaigning and perhaps the defining moment of this campaign - McCain's statement on Monday that the fundamentals of the economy are strong. McCain's statement will likely be remembered the same way we remember John Kerry's "I was for it before I was against it" moment in the 2004 election. It has defined this election I think.

But the Palinpalooza rationalizers will insist their work was critical. DemfromCt provides one iteration of the rationalization:

On Palin:

Pew found no lopsided shift of women to the Republican candidate, like Gallup, despite some premature reports that Palin’s place on the GOP ticket had caused a rush of female support to McCain.

There were no such premature reports here. What we saw were the polls that suggested that Palin was divisive and partisan, and a mixed picture with voters.

This is, in a word, silly. No one rational thought any VP choice was going to cause a permanent "rush of female support" to the Republican ticket. This is swatting at strawmen. The argument has been, at least from me, that focusing on Palin instead of the issues was not an effective strategy for Obama and/or his supporters. Indeed, the Obama campaign found its legs precisely when Palinpalooza faded from the Media coverage. To state that any political candidate is "divisive and partisan" is to state that water is wet. Palin had one important lasting effect in this race - she energized the Republican base. Does anyone REALLY believe McCain would be better off in this race without her? Does anyone really believe that Palinpalooza helped Obama? It did not. And the return of issues, especially the economy and the John McCain/George W. Bush connection, as the dominant narratives of the campaign is what has driven Obama to the lead.

Daily Kos has been obsessed with Palin's fav/unfav numbers as if these provide a strong correlation to the topline numbers. But Daily Kos' own polling data demonstrates this is nonsense. What has driven Obama's surge in its poll is the number of people who rate the economy the top issue in the campaign. Driving up Palin unfavorables among certain Democratic voters changes the topline numbers - the ones that matter on Election Day - not one iota.

The economy and George W. Bush did drive the topline numbers.

In the end, this is all water under the bridge - we are where we are and Palinpalooza is basically over now. And I feel confident the Obama campaign is thrilled about that and where they are in the campaign now. It is McCain who now scrambles for a game changer. His last chance will likely come at the September 26 debate.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Late Night: Miles From Nowhere | Has McCain's Week Decided The Election? >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Since the economy has (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by mg7505 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 07:59:35 AM EST
    figured prominently in the past week (and may explain some shift towards Obama), are there any reliable numbers on whether it's helping him with rural voters or Pennsylvania, Michigan etc?

    Also, what's the most reliable electoral map? I have been reading the NYTimes one. Not that polls like Gallup etc aren't helpful; but it would be nice to have more knowledge of key swing states.

    New poll of Midwest swing states (none / 0) (#24)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:38:26 AM EST
    is here, done by U of Wisconsin.  It shows a lot of ties.

    Parent
    poll conducted September 14-17 (none / 0) (#54)
    by wystler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:11:10 AM EST
    link here

    There's been well-demonstrated movement since they surveyed in other polling. It would make sense that the numbers in the sampled areas have also changed.

    One of the real problems that poll-citers often ignore is data currency.

    Parent

    Huh? The 17th was two days ago (none / 0) (#57)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:19:59 AM EST
    can you cite a more recent poll of these states?  Btw, the Kos poll in the same period for the entire Midwest put McCain well ahead.

    Parent
    devil's residence (none / 0) (#60)
    by wystler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:24:12 AM EST
    details, details

    in DKos/R2K polling, midwest region includes Texas

    Parent

    more details (none / 0) (#61)
    by wystler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:25:08 AM EST
    also includes Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska and the Dakotas

    Parent
    Most of those four are correct (none / 0) (#66)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:32:27 AM EST
    The Midwest is 12 states including Kansas, Nebraska, and both Dakotas.

    Not the Okies and Texans, though.  Much as they might wish they were in the Midwest.

    Parent

    Texas is midwest??? (none / 0) (#65)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:31:13 AM EST
    in DKos/R2K? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by wystler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:44:05 AM EST
    yes

    Midwest:
    IL, MN, MI, OH, WI, IA, MO, KS, IN, ND, SD, OK, TX, NE, CO


    Parent
    And you're switching your argument (none / 0) (#67)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:33:51 AM EST
    from time to place.

    Please explain why a poll ending the 17th is stale on the 19th -- compared to the polls you prefer that are older and thus, um, more "stale."

    Parent

    because ... (none / 0) (#75)
    by wystler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:45:51 AM EST
    ... it includes data from the 14th. How much? Can't say. Don't know. Not publicly available.

    All the trackers show huge movement from the 15th forward

    Parent

    Now you're really digging (none / 0) (#78)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:03:21 AM EST
    and not looking at the considerable info linked, info not provided by many polls you prefer, and I'm done with this.  Dismiss it all you want --  and see you on November 5.

    Parent
    done? (none / 0) (#80)
    by wystler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:55:18 AM EST
    you might look into this analysis on DKos (if you can bring yourself around to clicking) to see somebody else's critique of Big10 methodology

    Parent
    There may be good cause to critique (none / 0) (#83)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 02:10:26 PM EST
    the poll, but that link sure is not it.  The critiques are based on national numbers for gender, presuming that those apply in these states, without evidence of that, and disputing the use of population figures.  Then the critique demand use of population figures for racial groups -- although there has been evidence for some time of undervoting by AAs.  In both cases, there could be reasons for these critiques, such as that AA voting can be expected to be up this time, but the critique is illogical and not offering the evidence to counter the poll.

    And then, the crowning evidence given is the Wisconsin primary!  The writer clearly does not know about the Wisconsin primary, its rules, its history of crossovers that were huge again this year -- that evidence is easily available, widely written about, including here -- etc.  I could see some valid criticism on the points above . . . until I saw this, which is laughable.

    So, no, that is not the critique that convinces me in the least.  It wasn't worth the click.  

    Parent

    Wait... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 02:29:42 PM EST
    youre saying in these states women dont outvote men?

    Parent
    Sure they do. And AAs undervote (none / 0) (#85)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 03:23:03 PM EST
    so the critique of the evidence is inconsistent, as I said above, in both groups -- women and AAs.  You can try to be cute by pointing only to one, but that will not show the inconsistency, when it comes from the critique of both.

    And also problematic in a poll of only some states is to impose national stats on voting.  The stats are available for voting by women and AAs in those states.  If the critic used those, rather than national voting behaviors, to question this poll methodology, that would be valuable.

    Parent

    Try to be cute? (none / 0) (#87)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 03:51:47 PM EST
    It was a legitimate question, not any kind of insult or snark.  Youre a little unhinged.  Chill out.

    Parent
    From you, I have yet to see (none / 0) (#88)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 04:55:08 PM EST
    a legitimate question -- or answer.  Still waiting for you to answer the questions from your comment about you being a Native American.  Again, for starters, which tribe?

    Parent
    How could I respond to that... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 05:04:35 PM EST
    when the thread was closed from 200+ comments?  

    As for my tribe, Im Osage.  Why do you ask?  And you've never seen a legitimate question from me?  Ever?  If thats an absolute statement on your part, sounds biased to me.

    Parent

    I asked again in a later thread, but okay (none / 0) (#91)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 06:11:59 PM EST
    -- now we're caught up on that, and that yours is a tribe far from my area may explain the differences we were discussing.  So your tribe requires one-fourth heritage for tribal benefits?  If so, I will have to raise that with the Native American office and financial aid office at my institution, which states otherwise.

    Parent
    Actually... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 06:33:21 PM EST
    we dont have any blood quantum for membership or any benefits.  Also, we have no tribal benefits for education, other than one scholarship you can apply for, which amounts to about 500$ at the university of oklahoma each academic year.  Moreover, because almost no Osage applies for it, its usually given to others and when an actual Osage applies for it, they fight it.  Good times.

    By the way, can we have a truce?  I know Ive been lame to you, as youve been lame to me, so how about we from now on not be insulting and snarky towards each other?  I think we can both agree that this kind of discourse is much better than the alternative.

    Parent

    Skip it -- I looked up Osage now (none / 0) (#92)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 06:27:54 PM EST
    and see that tribal membership is for any degree of descendancy, more liberal than even I had discussed; tribes where I am tend to require more.  

    You do have a complicated problem with the voting on the council, only to descendants from the allotment rolls, and with so few of those left.  I gather that has not been resolved yet with BIA, but that's not what we were talking about, anyway.  

    Parent

    Ahh... (none / 0) (#96)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 06:40:10 PM EST
    the headache level with this tribe (as with a lot of tribe) when it comes to NA law is just stupid... and its even worse than that.

    Headrights are what give the member a right to vote on the minerals council (though not the tribal congress).  Moreover, headrights, which are passed down through wills, can be split up, just as some abstract property can be.  So if you have 1/2 a headright, you get 1/2 a vote.  Plus, theres no clear power separation from the council and the congress, yet one can only be voted on by people with a headright.  Its just amazingly stupid.

    By the way, a headright is the property right of the oil being leased.

    Parent

    Btw, interesting example (none / 0) (#93)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 06:30:01 PM EST
    of multiculturalism that you have a Thai name, or at least a Thai sig here.  I also have a multicultural moniker, only in America. . . .

    Parent
    Yeah thats what my GF told me... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 06:34:48 PM EST
    about my screen name.  I just liked the way it looked, heh.

    Parent
    The surprise may be Iowa in this (none / 0) (#33)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:06:57 AM EST
    poll by the U of Wisconsin:

    In the Big Ten poll, the contest in [seven of the eight] states was a statistical dead heat (within the margin of error of four percentage points). Obama held narrow leads in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio and Minnesota.  They were tied in Pennsylvania and Iowa, while McCain led in Indiana.


    Parent
    That has to be an outlier. The last (none / 0) (#40)
    by tigercourse on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:24:07 AM EST
    2 polls had Obama up 12 and 15.

    Parent
    Well, it may be an outlier (none / 0) (#43)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:34:43 AM EST
    as in my verb choice; it doesn't have to be one.

    On Iowa, I would tend to trust the Des Moines Register poll, true.  But it began 10 days before this one.  Maybe there has been some sort of shift.  It would be interesting to know which ads are being run there.  We're being inundated, and especially by McCain ads, in my tv market in Wisconsin.

    Parent

    it's not an outlier (none / 0) (#56)
    by wystler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:18:14 AM EST
    what it is: stale

    the poll's data was taken 9/14-17

    other trackers have shown marked movement from the 15th, so these samples should be questioned (especially since there's no published daily breakout)

    additionally, though there were i.d. screens employed, there's no methodology stated regarding whether there were adjustments for the screens

    Parent

    Yup. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Fabian on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:02:36 AM EST
    It's not Palin, it's McCain.
    It's not Iraq/religion/guns, it's the economy, ___.

    Fortunately, Obama himself is shrewder than some of his supporters and steered clear of most of the Palin mess.  Imagine how poorly it would reflect on him if he had spent his time peering into Palin's past instead of the economic crisis in front of us.

    Do not be distracted.  (Take it from someone with ADD - distractions are usually not productive.)

    I wouldn't say that (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by david mizner on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:07:47 AM EST
    MCain's last chance for a game-changer is the debate. If there's an international crisis that takes the focus off the economy, all bets are off.

    But you're surely right about the Palin-obsessives. Kos's post patting himself on the back yesterday was embarrassing.

    I hear (none / 0) (#21)
    by Lahdee on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:25:57 AM EST
    Kos (none / 0) (#58)
    by MTSINAIMAMA on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:23:01 AM EST
    What do you expect from him? He did the same thing with his pathetic Elizabeth Edwards post.

    Parent
    We should see Obama (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by bjorn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:21:16 AM EST
    holding his lead or increasing it now because the economy is not going to get better over night.  His speeches in the last three days have been very Clinton-like on the economy and that is a good thing.  

    A few possible game changers: (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by EL seattle on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:29:46 AM EST
    I'd think that any of the following could (and probably will) change the dynamics of the race.

    1.) Any one of the debates.  (Each debate will have their own 'story', after all.

    2.) Public announcements of Secretary of State selections.  (I'm convinced that this was a significant game changer for Bush in 2000.)

    3.) News of the day variables.

    4a.) Effective positive ads.

    4b.) Effective negative ads.

    5.) Screw ups.

    6.) Scandals.

    7.) A bored national media that's willing to invent narrative to fill time for ratings.

    I definitely think we have a few weeks to go until this race is over.

    #7's practically a certainty. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Pegasus on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:40:20 AM EST
    The Media Wants It To Be Close is a truism as far as I'm concerned.  Political news is a hot commodity, and it's much hotter when we're looking at a dead heat (or when people think we are).

    If Obama expands his lead, which I expect him to do, I'd bet $20 against a share of WaMu that media coverage turns against him for no apparent reason.  That's infotainment for you.

    Parent

    how do you explain (none / 0) (#1)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 07:56:11 AM EST
    in Ras that in their polling McCain leads 47-45 as better prepared for the economy?

    The question is (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 07:59:20 AM EST
    how does Ras explain it? Their data stands alone on this point. It is not credible.

    Parent
    I don't know how they explain it (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:04:52 AM EST
    was hoping you did.  I said 2 months ago when the market crashed the tide would change.  Same thing happened 15 years ago.  

    I cannot have any confidence in the RAS poll when nearly every major poll, pundit and blogger states the economy is the reason for the turn and their poll states that McCain leads in voter confidence on the issue by two points.  If that were the case, daddy mac would be up 6 points by now.

    Parent

    If you're accurately reporting (none / 0) (#44)
    by frankly0 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:39:44 AM EST
    the polling question, whether McCain or Obama is better prepared to deal with the economy, I can see why McCain's numbers are so good.

    As cast, that question is really one at least as much about level of experience as it is about potential results.

    If the question were instead, Who will do a better job with the economy? I'd expect pretty different, and far less favorable, numbers.

    Parent

    here is the q (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:00:42 AM EST
    "As for the political implications, polling conducted last night shows that 47% trust McCain more than Obama on economic issues while 45% trust Obama. "

    What do you make of that?


    Parent

    Let's just say (none / 0) (#59)
    by frankly0 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:24:12 AM EST
    that I find Ras' numbers pretty surprising.

    Parent
    trust is vastly different from prepared (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:01:17 AM EST
    I had not posed it correctly.

    Parent
    McCain is better prepared (none / 0) (#64)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:30:20 AM EST
    to make BAD choices wrt the economy.

    Same with foreign policy, IMO

    Parent

    I agree the bad economic news (none / 0) (#6)
    by kenosharick on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:07:10 AM EST
    helps Obama. Is there any validity to the assertion that one of his top economic advisors drove Fannie Mae inti the ground, while raking in 90 million for himself? If so, mccain would be smart to hammer that in.

    An absolute falsehood (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:10:22 AM EST
    Please keep the lying GOP smears out of my threads.

    Parent
    I was asking (none / 0) (#11)
    by kenosharick on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:13:54 AM EST
    saw it reported on a "news" channel last night. didn't mean to upset you so.

    Parent
    It was reported as a false smear (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:16:26 AM EST
    At least in my threads, we do not take GOP bait.

    Parent
    I say delete it (none / 0) (#29)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:48:52 AM EST
    Why promote a harmful rumor.

    Parent
    Is This a smear? (none / 0) (#47)
    by rennies on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:49:50 AM EST
     Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson both ran Fannie Mae and Raines paid almost $25 million dollars for his role in a Fannie Mae (100 million) accounting scandal. Obama initially named Johnson to head up his VP search team. IIRC Raines is still an adviser.

    Parent
    Yes it is (none / 0) (#53)
    by CST on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:09:06 AM EST
    Raines is not an advisor, at least not according to Raines.  And the only insinuation was that he "took calls" from the Obama campaign, although he said he didn't even do that.  He was never considered a formal advisor to the Obama campaign.

    Parent
    He said he did before he said he didn't (none / 0) (#69)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:35:09 AM EST
    take calls, according to an earlier WaPo story in which Raines said Obama called for advice.

    Parent
    Ok (none / 0) (#76)
    by CST on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:46:52 AM EST
    Taking calls from someone doesn't really make you an "advisor" though, even if they are asking for advice, IMO.  He is no Phill Gramm with a (formerly) public role in the campaign.

    Parent
    Agreed. The odd thing now is that (none / 0) (#89)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 04:56:32 PM EST
    Raines is denying that he said to the reporter that he did get the call.  So he is making this a story when it need not be.

    Parent
    The only validity (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by rooge04 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:13:47 AM EST
    is that the GOP, including John McCain, were for almost no regulation up until I dunno, yesterday.  I heard a snippet of Obama's speech yesterday at a campaign stop and he got me fired up.  Ripping into the Republican ideology at its core.   And then I almost spit out my coffee laughing when McCain said that Obama is not real change...he's what's wrong with Washington.  I cannot believe the man that's been there 26 yrs can say that with a straight face.

    Parent
    McCain's pointing to a speech he made (none / 0) (#46)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:48:46 AM EST
    back in 2006 with an "I predicted that something like this might happen." GovTrack has his speech and the legislation it was related to.

    Parent
    I also heard a snippet (none / 0) (#48)
    by rooge04 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:52:10 AM EST
    from a speech he made only like a month ago where he said, "I believe in MORE deregulation"

    Parent
    Do you have a link? (none / 0) (#55)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:15:13 AM EST
    I'd like to see...

    Parent
    March (none / 0) (#68)
    by CST on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:34:51 AM EST
    Not exactly last month.  but this is what he said in March:

    "In financial institutions, there is no substitute for adequate capital to serve as a buffer against losses. Our financial market approach should include encouraging increased capital in financial institutions by removing regulatory, accounting and tax impediments to raising capital."

    From Fox News

    The rest of his speech isn't terrible in tone, but in policy I disagree with most of it.

    Parent

    In the interests of accuracy, (none / 0) (#49)
    by rennies on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:53:32 AM EST
    which is prized here at TL, read the WAPO editorial today on McCain and regulation: http://tinyurl.com/47nqto

    Parent
    Good (none / 0) (#8)
    by Lahdee on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:09:50 AM EST
    Now that Palinpalooza is over we can concentrate on the candidate that brought us an unqualified vice presidential candidate and the man who will continue those oh so fine Bush policies and practices.
    46 days.

    Kos put it a little more intelligently ... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Demi Moaned on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:18:14 AM EST
    in this post:
    ut then the worriers began to question, "Why are we focusing on Palin? McCain is getting a pass! We're tilting at windmills, since she's too popular to damage!" ...

    But we continued to focus on Palin. Republicans were busy trying to build a positive narrative about Palin -- the "hockey mom" who was so folksy she could "field dress a moose" and had "said no to the Bridge to Nowhere and other government waste" and was overflowing with "small town values". McCain had shot up in the polls because of Palin. Common sense dictated it would be hard to knock him back down as long as she consolidated her popularity. So we set out to build the negative narratives about Palin. This is stuff straight out of Taking on the System. I have a whole chapter on it, in fact.

    So we focused heavily on Palin, and make no mistake, it's exactly that intense focus that has taken its toll on her numbers:

    In effect he's saying, we didn't make the same mistake as Kerry did of ignoring the swiftboaters. Palin was the threat and we took her on.

    I'm not sure what I think about it, though clearly you're skeptical of this argument.

    I do not even (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:20:36 AM EST
    understand his point or your interpretation.

    Because Kerry got swiftboated we need to concentrate on the VP candidate instead of Bush/McCain and he economy?

    Makes no sense. More importantly, the data, Kos' OWN data demonstrates he is just plain wrong.

    The end of Palinpalooza coincided with Obama's sharp rise.

    Parent

    I do love (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by rooge04 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:26:01 AM EST
    how sure Markos is in his own analysis. When the facts plainly show he's completely wrong on it.  Any bounce Palin may have had was due to exactly this stupid strategy he thinks works so well. It's because, unlike him, Obama is actually talking about what matters...the economy and McCain that her numbers have gone down. He's snapped people back into what matters.  Kos did exactly the opposite.  So foolish.

    Parent
    Not "too popular to damage". (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Fabian on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:31:13 AM EST
    Palin is popular with the wrong voters for Obama.  Damaging Palin won't win any new voters for Obama.  

    A plus for McCain is not a minus for Obama and a minus for McCain is not a plus for Obama.  You can't build a Strong Positive Brand for Obama by tearing down Palin.  They are separate and almost unrelated issues.

    Palin was about generating media interest (controlling news cycles), rallying the base and raising money.  She's a short term gain, long term ???.  

    Parent

    Well... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Pegasus on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:16:15 AM EST
    A plus for McCain is not a minus for Obama and a minus for McCain is not a plus for Obama.

    In general, yes, a plus for McCain is a minus for Obama, etc., just in electoral terms.  Your point about not being able to build Obama's brand by attacking Republicans is well taken, though.

    Parent

    Why is the race still so close? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Saul on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:20:52 AM EST
    In a year when it shouldn't have been even close at all for the democrats, a year when it should have been a rout in the polls for the democrat nominee,  a year of major contrast from a disaster 8 years of Bush, many say it is close because of race and it will stay close to the end.   I think that is all McCain wanted to accomplish, to keep it close.

    Racism may be playing a very small role (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by bjorn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:23:56 AM EST
    but I think it is Obama's cerebral and detached personality.  He has been hitting all the right notes this past week and perhaps connecting better...hopefully that will translate to a wider lead.  But I think racism is too easy of an explanation.  Had Obama picked Clinton as VP he might also have a wider lead.

    Parent
    Don't think it's racism (none / 0) (#32)
    by Coral on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:53:13 AM EST
    I think there is an increasingly small portion of Democratic voters who were for Hillary Clinton who are still not convinced about Obama. This from anecdotal evidence -- last night -- from a friend who is canvassing for Obama in NH.

    My gut feeling is that the economy -- especially bread & butter/kitchen table issues -- is what can make the sale to this type of voter. These are the people in PA, OH, even Indiana who will vote for Obama if he reaches out to them.

    I sure hope he does. Today's NY Times front page story on the "Vast Bailout" is pretty darned scary. It seems clear that the Bush administration had to be pushed into doing something big enough to calm the markets, and to avoid further crisis. Krugman is also good today.

    Parent

    Large role, depending on how you look at it (none / 0) (#70)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:36:10 AM EST
    Dems usually have more of a shot in WVa for instance.

    Why aren't they this year? That's another one that could push Obama over the 270 mark.

    Parent

    Has Obama been to WV yet? (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:45:28 AM EST
    He never went there in the primaries, as I recall.  Voters like to be visited and asked.

    Parent
    good question (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:48:31 AM EST
    good point.

    Seems like it might be a better idea than to put efforts into GA, but what do I know?

    Parent

    Yes he has (none / 0) (#79)
    by CST on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:22:29 AM EST
    He went in May

    Right before the primary no less.

    Parent

    Good, he did go -- I recalled relatives (none / 0) (#82)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 02:00:56 PM EST
    there who were upset by his cancelled stops, which must have been earlier.  So this was too late for the primaries.  That doesn't stop him from going there again, to a state that prides itself on not going along with the South. :-)

    Parent
    It has steadily been getting (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:21:47 AM EST
    less close.

    Parent
    I am curious (none / 0) (#50)
    by rennies on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:56:22 AM EST
    as to why you did not include yesterday's Pew poll, which shows a tie.

    Parent
    Is there reason (none / 0) (#86)
    by Chisoxy on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 03:30:11 PM EST
    to think it wont get closer if things steady out ads they seem to be. It is still only about a 4 or 5 pt lead. You seem a bit overconfident BTD.

    Parent
    Insider Advantage CO poll? (none / 0) (#18)
    by WS on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:23:24 AM EST
    has O up 10 51-41.  Great news if it is but its probably an outlier.  I want to see the next set of polls in CO.

    New VA polls weren't good for Obama but there's questions over the African American turnout percentages in those polls. I really want Virginia this year.      

    McCain, thankfully, looks to be a long shot to win (none / 0) (#20)
    by barryluda on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:24:04 AM EST
    But picking Palin continues to help McCain keep the focus off more important issues as evidenced by the fact that even BTD -- who gets it more than most -- can't resist devoting a significant part of his post today discussing Palin, even if it's in critisizing those Palinpalooza rationalizers.

    A longshot? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by kenosharick on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:41:40 AM EST
    There are 8-10 states that will decide this race including Ohio, Penn, Mich, Co, Wis and they are mostly tied or within the MOE. This race could go either way- not a long shot for Obama or mccain.

    Parent
    Very much a long shot imo (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:50:56 AM EST
    I simply cannot risk (none / 0) (#71)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:37:09 AM EST
    believing you at this point.

    Kerry's loss was too devastating.

    Parent

    The Obama bounce parallels. . . (none / 0) (#25)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:38:36 AM EST
    the Palin favorability fall off.  Or, perhaps, Palin's drop off parallels the bounce.  I don't think they're unrelated but teasing out which way the causality runs is probably impossible (which, of course, makes it perfect fodder for blogging).

    I believe in attacking McCain on his strong points.  Since, for a while, Palin was his strongest point I think it's politically appropriate to undermine her value to the ticket.  I think some of the blog-fare about Palin was actually counter-productive (petty arguments that actually cast her in a positive light and false claims that embarrassed not her but the left) but that doesn't change the fact that having a VP candidate on the Republican ticket who's less popular is certainly better than having one who's wildly popular.

    Attacking Palin as one of McCain's many mistakes is a valid political argument.  If one were to hold her up today as an example of the kind of person McCain plans on appointing to supervise the economy, for instance, I think one might further alienate him from secular money Republicans.

    No it does not (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:50:11 AM EST
    That is just wrong. Palin favorability drop was continuous through the post Convention period but Obama's rise occurred this week.

    There is not even correlation, much less causation, between Palin's favorability drop and Obama's rise.

    Parent

    Nope. . . (none / 0) (#39)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:21:04 AM EST
    Obama went positive this week, but I believe the polls had already turned around last week -- McCain's lead started slipping then.  For instance, the Gallup poll shows McCain's peak on September 7th & 8th with steady erosion happening since then.  It took a few days to wipe out McCain's lead, so Obama only moved ahead on the 15th, but the O-mentum has been with Obama since ten days ago.  The economic ka-blooey will help Obama, but you're overestimating it's importance in the current polling.

    And I don't know exactly when Palin's favorability rating started falling, but it wasn't right after the convention -- maybe a week or so.

    So if the polls started turning around some smallish number of days after Palin's favorability  was falling that's at least correlation.  As for causality, I believe there is some, but I'm not sure in which direction.

    Parent

    I always agreed with you (none / 0) (#27)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:45:54 AM EST
    that Palin should not be a target of the Obama campaign or his surrogates.   There was no upside for them to attack Palin.  

    However I am not sure that what the blogosphere did was entirely bad.  Palin is a chimera who is out of her league right now.  But the McCain campaign wanted to use her as a front to please the right and try and siphon off some women voters.  

    Delegitimizing her early makes it so that she is less of a threat.  

    The Obama campaign must continue to focus on those things that favor the Democrats.  But I don't think there is anything wrong with the blogosphere being the pitbull.  It allows Obama to keep his hands clean while pushing the media on the Palin issue.

    The efrfect on the Media (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:48:50 AM EST
    was defintiely negative. I believe the Palinpalooza the blogs insisted on infected the Media and that was, at the least, an opportunity cost for the Obama campaign.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#34)
    by flyerhawk on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:09:51 AM EST
    I would certainly agree that the blogs pushed forward some really dumb attacks on Palin.

    But they did eventually get their footing, IMO.  And now they have established a narrative in the media that Palin is truth challenged.

    Establishing that narrative will pay dividends, IMO.  When she goes toe to toe with Biden she will need to be very mindful of this or she could get Gore'd and even her innocuous comments will be spun to be sound like lies.

    Parent

    Narratives about McCain (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:14:19 AM EST
    are what matter imo.

    Palin is running for VP.

    Parent

    hm (none / 0) (#35)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:11:09 AM EST
    The debates could be important but they werent so important for Kerry.  He is generally thought to have won them (2/3) and it didnt do him much good.

    Bush led Kerry through most of the race and no apple carts were upset by Kerry's solid debate appearances.

    If I was Obama, I'd be happy with a lead going into the debates.

    Actually (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:13:47 AM EST
    the first debate particularly did Kerry a world of good.

    Parent
    hmm (none / 0) (#41)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:27:40 AM EST
    Yeah, its strange, I was readinga bout zogby, which changed little for Kerry. But gallup had him pull even with Bush after the first debate,which would be a big jump.  CBS-NYT is supposed to have a similar result but I cant find it.

    He still couldnt climb all the way out of that hole.  All of the polls I recognize had him down as the end neared.

    Parent

    The debates created a bounce for Kerry (none / 0) (#72)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:41:30 AM EST
    that faded...then the pervasive trouble of the country came back...i.e., terrorism and foreign policy.

    Terrorism and foreign policy are GOP issues, even when we had a war hero running against a slacker that allowed 911.

    This year it's the economy. It's our issue.

    With the big issues, brand wins over personality every time.

    Parent

    "This is swatting at strawmen" (none / 0) (#62)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:26:22 AM EST
    McCain appeared to genuinely believe that strawman, as evidenced by some of Palin's first words at the announcement of her VP candidacy.

    To me, this is like a huge slap in the fac from McCain. He was saying " you're a woman, she's a woman....what's the problem? You all can comiserate about pumping milk for babies during work breaks" He thought he had all the Hilary voters. Turns out he just has British Dutchesses.

    Oh, right (none / 0) (#63)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:27:50 AM EST
    you said no one "rational"

    I guess that shows us where McCain is.

    Parent

    nice (none / 0) (#81)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 12:20:50 PM EST
    New gallup. Obama leads by 5.  49-44.

    Another bump tommorrow and Ill be happy.