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Bill Clinton On The Wall Street Crisis

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    "The system was blinking red" (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 09:51:43 AM EST
    for months and months, years, even. Anyone with eyes could have seen it.  Ray Charles could have seen it (had he been alive).

    And the Republicans and their friends on Wall Street continued on their merry way, looting and raping the economy for their own private profit.

    And now, they want us to bail them out so they can continue to do the same thing.

    Two sets of people (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:00:43 AM EST
    In reading comments on right/left blogs and in conversation with my friends I'm finding two distinct kinds of camps developing:

    1. The camp that believes it is completely the other party's fault.  Both D's and R's have plenty of video/press/etc to support their assualt on the other party. (it's THEIR fault).

    2. The camp that ma believe one party is more responsible than the other, but are expending their energy in rage at both parties. (They ALL have a piece of the blame).

    In my personal relationships I'm seeing a lot more of the latter and am actually having some highly productive discussions with people when, in the past, it was a lot more difficult to do.

    I fall in the latter and am magnanimous in my outrage.

    Parent

    The set of people who I would like (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:05:29 AM EST
    to be associated with are the ones who have moved past the blame and on to the solution.

    Parent
    Solutions are hard.... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:15:02 AM EST
    hard to get elected offering solutions, sloutions often involve unpopular truths, sacrifice, hard work...band-aids are they way to go if you wanna win elections.

    Probably why we don't seem to solve many problems, we postpone them.

    Parent

    Which is how we got where (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Fabian on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:16:30 AM EST
    we are today - by punting the ball down the road.

    Parent
    Which is what I fear... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:49:12 AM EST
    the bailout is as well, a postponement of the eventual day of reckoning.

    Parent
    Well, if we don't do something to prevent (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by tigercourse on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:53:34 AM EST
    the looming short term catastrophe, then it becomes hard to ever tackle the long term problems (trade deficit, loss of industrial production, loss of intellectual capital, etc.) Preventing total economic collapse now might make it easier to address those problems.

    Parent
    I'm beginning to think.... (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:02:08 AM EST
    the Wall St. and Big Money definition of "total economic collapse" is quite different than mine, or most working people.

    I don't think anybody knows what is gonna happen whether we bail-out or we don't, especially the so-called "experts".  Where the hell have these "experts" been for the last 8-10 years?

    Parent

    Yes. Let us ask for full (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Fabian on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:19:55 PM EST
    financial disclosure on these so-called experts.  There were a lot of money making money off of shady lending practices.  I'm deeply unhappy with everyone to the appraisers who inflated property values to people who used straw buyers to the hot shots who flooded the credit market with bad paper.  Every one of them made money unethically.

    Too bad there's no way to single every one of them out of the common herd.  

    There was a story in the Columbus Dispatch Sunday about a realtor who had a 5 bedroom home in Clintonville (obviously upper Clintonville) and a Mercedes in the garage.  Now she's renter in lower class digs.  "No one saw it coming!" she claims.  Either she is embarrassingly ignorant of the housing market she made money on, or she is lying.  (Terrible at managing her money/career as well.)

    Parent

    Does massive and widespread (none / 0) (#77)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:45:51 PM EST
    layoffs by companies who depend on short-term credit to make their payrolls meet your criteria of total economic collapse?  The cascading effect once that started to happen would be impossible to stop, and that's what's threatening and what the Paulson-Dodd bill is aimed at preventing by unlocking business credit.


    Parent
    Does anyone have their head around the solution? (none / 0) (#63)
    by esmense on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:02:57 PM EST
    Does anyone even have their head around the real problem?

    As I see it, the problem is this; the mighty post WWII American 'consumer" economy is no more. But finding its end impossible to contemplate or admit we have created a facade, a financial "house of cards" as the President calls it, to mask its loss and take its place.

    That economy was created by and based in the consumer spending of a broad and broadening middle class. Spending supported by a growing job market and productivity-based rising wages.

    But, over the last 30-40 years, as a result of automation, globalization, union suppression and the political support, by both parties, of the interests of finance over manufacturing, Wall Street over Main Street, heirs and investors over wage earners, and, the elevation of the consumer interests of a more affluent but more limited meritocratic class over even the most basic survival interests of everyone else, we have transitioned to a different economy -- a borrower economy in which consumer spending is propped up to a greater and greater extent by easier and easier credit and more and more unsustainable levels of personal debt. We have become dependent on financial measures and manipulations -- the acceptance of huge amounts of debt and, most important in this crisis, reliance on ever more questionable credit instruments and practices, to maintain consumer spending while obscuring the real, fundamental problems; productivity growth that no longer leads to rising wages, rising job insecurity, record levels of income disparity (that have replaced a broad, mass market with ever richer but more limited elite markets), and, most important, average per capita wages and even "average" household incomes that can not support even basic middle class survival expectations (homeownership, health care, education, retirement), much less healthy consumer spending. Nor, of course, do they support savings.

    It is an economy in which the middle class has dwindled, working class wages have been declining for decades, and even the wages of the educated middle class have stagnated (and, most recently, started to decline). And, of course, as such, it is an economy in which the poor find entry into the middle class (thus expanding the consumer base required for a consumer economy) through good jobs and higher wages increasingly impossible.

    But, despite all these long-standing problems, we have managed to stagger along, from crisis to crisis, bubble to bubble, and actually create unprecedented fortunes for those at the top, by finessing our level of financial play and letting the whole world in on the shell game.

    For instance, in addition to the transition to two earner households, late 70s and early 80s inflation and wage stagnation was met with easier credit for greater and greater numbers of people. The "smart" strategy consumers were encouraged to pursue was to "buy now" on credit and pay later "with cheaper dollars." Credit cards went from a convenience for the affluent to an ubiquitous necessity for everyone else. (Increasingly, in many places, you couldn't even open a bank account without one.)

    By the end of the 80s, despite the fact that most middle class households now had two earners, the average middle class family was routinely using significant amounts of debt to maintain both consumer spending and the basic expectations of middle class life (home ownership, healthcare and education, secure retirement). But, they were paying an increasingly unbearable cost for doing so -- because although inflation (in consumer goods, but not in basics like health care and housing) was now under control, interest rates were still sky high. Businesses loaded with too much high interest debt went under, jobs were lost, bankruptcies spiked, consumer spending contracted. George H. Bush lost his bid for re-election.

    In the 90s, falling interest rates allowed for an orgy of home re-financing. Middle class families used that money to pay down their debt, Wall Street boomed, the budget deficit was brought under control, the housing market picked up, and increases in home values and 401 K's made so many people members of the "investor" class that concern about wages and wage earnings became passe. When, in fact, at the end of the decade wages even, for the first time in 30 years, began to rise for those at the bottom began, many saw it as a troublesome development (that could lead to inflation in the cost of doing business) that needed to be supressed.

    2000 -- the high tech bubble began to inevitably deflate, the Bush administration made tax breaks for the investor class its only priority. Gains for working people from the 90s were lost and reversed. Jobs contracted. But, although the average guy's 401K may have been hammered, there were HUGE amounts of money in the hands of the real investor class. Where to put it? In investment in America's infrastructure? In development of new technologies, industries and jobs? Naw. Not enough profit in that. What's needed is another bubble. More questionable, easy money, high profit financial instruments. More suckers trying to grasp at the American dream in the only ways open to them.

    Do we really have any more bubbles in us? And if we don't, how do we start addressing a problem too many powerful people no longer even see as a problem (in fact, see as a benefit for themselves) -- the destruction of real wage and job growth.

    Parent

    You've got a lot of it right (none / 0) (#79)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:53:43 PM EST
    I think, but it looks like you're missing two related pieces of the overall picture.

    One is that manufacturing in this country didn't just decline on a whim, it declined because it simply couldn't compete with dirt cheap Chinese and other foreign manfacturing, even by U.S.-owned companies.  How many of us bought, for instance, an expensive (and honestly not terribly well-made) American-made TV set back in the day there still was such a thing and passed over the cheaper, better mostly Asian-made sets?  Same thing with cars, major and minor appliances, power tools, heck, you name it.

    Secondly, there's a genuine boom going on in China primarily, but other places, too, and vast pools of money looking for a home.  My understanding is that horrors like mortgage-backed securities and credit default swaps and were invented largely in order to have something to sell to that vast amount of foreign capital sloshing around.

    Parent

    You are right that manufacturing (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by hairspray on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:20:57 PM EST
    was lost to a cheaper labor pool.  However, that wasn't the entire story.  We passed laws that actually encouraged and rewarded companies to go overseas.  We gave all sorts of tax breaks to people who didn't produce in this country, but sold almost exclusively to the US. We sanctioned the Cayman Islands and offshore corporations.  We didn't need to do that. I heard Hillary say during the primaries in Indiana that we had better options than shovelling our jobs out the door.In fact she said they are begging for access to our markets, and we should use that leverage.  We certainly could have made our trade deals more fair.  We didn't need to fall apart the way we did.  It was all of the business hyperbole.  When the Soviets fell, Capitalism became king, especially with the free market people and the laissez faire types.

    Parent
    gave all sorts of tax breaks to people who didn't produce in this country, but sold almost exclusively to the US.

    No snark, I've seen the claim but never followed up on verifying it.

    Parent
    I've seen this on fact check.org (none / 0) (#92)
    by hairspray on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:01:28 PM EST
    and a couple of other places but here it is from USA today in reponse to claims from both Democratic candidates.
    Martin Sullivan, a contributing editor to Tax Notes, a non-profit publication that tracks tax issues reports:  At issue is the U.S. tax code's treatment of profits earned by foreign subsidiaries of American corporations. Profits earned in the United States are subject to the 35% corporate tax. But multinational corporations can defer paying U.S. taxes on their overseas profits until they return them to the USA -- transfers that often don't happen for years. General Electric, for example, has $62 billion in "undistributed earnings" parked offshore, according to recent Securities and Exchange Commission filings. Drug giant Pfizer boasts $60 billion. ExxonMobil has $56 billion.
    "If you had two companies in Pittsburgh that both were going to expand capacity and create 100 jobs, our tax code puts the company who chooses to put the plant in Pittsburgh at a competitive disadvantage over the company that chooses to move to a tax haven," says former White House economist Gene Sperling, a Clinton adviser.
    The Democrats, saying the United States has overlooked the costs to working Americans in its rush to embrace globalization, have vowed to eliminate any tax incentive for further offshoring.


    Parent
    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:33:50 PM EST
    If the co's now go to such lengths to set up divisions outside the US in which to keep "offshore" profits un-taxed by the US, I wonder if they'd just up and move the entire co outside the US if the laws were changed such that their "offshore" profits were taxed by the US.

    Parent
    Interesting question. (none / 0) (#100)
    by hairspray on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:37:38 PM EST
    that's why there are (none / 0) (#109)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:33:26 PM EST
    boycotts...

    Parent
    Thanks very much for this (none / 0) (#103)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 04:12:06 PM EST
    It's very good to see it spelled out clearly.

    Parent
    gyrfalcon -- (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by esmense on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:25:02 PM EST
    No, I don't think I missed that -- I just touched on it lightly by referring to "globalization." Another problem in terms of declining jobs, even less talked about than globalization, is automation. What manufacturing production remains in this country requires much less manpower than it did in the 1950s and 60s. "Automation" in terms of the personal computers place in the white collar work place has even had an impact on white collar, and of course pink collar, jobs. The writing on the wall in terms of automation came long before globalization, in fact. But we have never seriously addressed its consequences.

    You are correct about the "vast pools of money looking for a home." And that "mortgage-backed securities and credit default swaps and were invented largely in order to have something to sell to that vast amount of foreign capital sloshing around."

    That's the problem and the irony; lots of money has been made by a limited number, although global in scope, interests off the destruction of our once more broadly properous, consumer economy. The people who have the resources to make the investments needed to revive broad prosperity on a newer, more modern footing, are the same people who benefitted most from its destruction, and will experience the least personal pain at its demise.  

    Parent

    True enough, and well said (none / 0) (#102)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 04:10:24 PM EST
    The "financialization," if I can make up such an ugly word, of a large part of the U.S. economy is why it's been able to go more or less booming along while workers and ordinary folk are earning less and less in real dollars.  The jerks at the top of the money heap don't even notice, and wouldn't care if they did, because it's all working the way it's supposed to from their perspective.  Gah.

    Good discussion here, Esmense.  Thanks for the post.  Far more useful than just running around yelling about "fat cats" ripping us all off.  The issue is how they got so fat, and whether there's anything at all that could conceivably be done to make a real and large-scale difference.

    I don't really see a way to get our consumer-based manufacturing economy back, at least not until the Chinese, et al, get so completely caught up to us in terms of lifestyle and economic expectations that U.S. manufacturing can begin to compete again, but that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.  And in any case, there will be other developing countries right behind them to pick up the slack.

    Parent

    I can't entirely agree with you (none / 0) (#74)
    by SarahSpin on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:38:57 PM EST
    I would like to see some of the people whose reckless spending drove this crisis pay more than I do.  I don't own a house.  I don't have a fancy kitchen and an SUV.  I would like to see some of these people have to downsize a little (or a lot).  

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 8) (#10)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:09:09 AM EST
    Both parties have to share in the blame, but only one ideology is to blame.

    As long as people understand that a extremist doctrine of free market fetishism and radical deregulation got us into the mess we're in today, that's what really matters.  Everything else will come out in the wash.

    Parent

    So I presume (none / 0) (#12)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:10:31 AM EST
    You are more in the first camp than the second...

    Parent
    And I presume (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:29:29 AM EST
    that you could not have missed the point any wider if you had tried.

    Parent
    A question (none / 0) (#28)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:34:03 AM EST
    So you believe the sole root cause for this is de-regulation? I am just trying to understand here.

    Parent
    It is the primary cause (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42:09 AM EST
    If someone can show me how increased regulation of the financial markets contributed to the problem, though, I'm happy to work that in.

    I would caution you against a Broderesque obsession with declaring "both sides are to blame" that gets in the way of identifying actual root causes.  In the context of saying that both political parties have contributed to the problem, sure, that's valid.  In the context of claiming that both regulation and deregulation have contributed to the problem, if you're going to drill down to that level in the pursuit of evenhandedness above all, then I think you're going to have a hard time drawing actual conclusions.

    Parent

    Your distinction (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by frankly0 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:56:04 AM EST
    between the "ideological" underpinnings of the Republicans, and whatever you imagine lies behind the Democrats' responsibility for this crisis, is completely forced.

    The Republicans were in favor of the relevant piece of deregulation because they are generally in favor of deregulation, by ideology.

    The Democrats were in favor the relevant piece of deregulation because they are generally in favor of extending credit to middle class/working class/lower middle class constituents (a sizable number of them minorities), again by ideology. Democrats have been pushing in this direction for many, many years.

    Both parties would also assert, I'm sure, that their ideologies, "properly understood", should not have entailed the particular deregulation, and lack of oversight, that led to this crisis. I'm sure Republicans will say that deregulation, properly understood, should not have allowed the  financial industry such leeway that they could have extended so many bad loans; this, they will say, is one of the things that should have been regulated. I'm sure Democrats likewise will say that extending credit to their constituents should never have been done in such a way that truly bad credit risks were allowed on a systematic basis.

    How you can claim that one party is responsible for the relevant "ideology" and not the other you never explain -- you simply assert, as if it's obvious. What's certainly true is that it is in no way an accident for either party that they have had a hand in enabling this fiasco: it derives from policies they have been pursuing for decades.

    A moment of honesty on these points might be appreciated.

    Parent

    You said it... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:58:48 AM EST
    ...much better than I.  Everyone's hands are all over this.  Some people realize this, some don't.

    Parent
    Breath of fresh air, the both of you. (none / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:25:51 PM EST
    Stick around.

    Parent
    just because some people wanted (none / 0) (#93)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:05:45 PM EST
    credit extended to lower-middle class families and middle class families didn't mean that they wanted these people taken advantage of by these mortgage brokerage firms that are now extinct (the ones that popped up in a mirrored black office building on a floor like in the movie Boiler Room and hired any and every person with any crappy business degree to call people unsolicited and move numbers around so that it made the people think they could afford more than they could)...

    sure, you'll get this Adjustable rate, but you can just refinance in 6 months because the house will SURELY be worth more then than it is now, you'll have no problem refinancing at a better, flat rate, no problem at all....the numbers work I'm telling you...

    of course, most of those people couldn't refinance at a flat rate and then the TOTALLY OBSCENE, immoral Adjustable rates kicked in and the people could no longer afford their houses...

    I know that this goes against economics at its root, but I never understood why people think that those who make less money should be charged more money to borrow, thus making it harder for them to pay back the loan...yes, I understand risk and economics, but I understand BEING HUMAN and having COMMON SENSE even more...

    Parent

    My feelings on root cause (none / 0) (#34)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:06:32 AM EST
    go back a little further towards "ideological" legislation that imposed behavioral requirements to open up money making housing more available.  I would suggest that is one of the earliest dominoes in the chain.  Imposing that without anticipating downstream effects was a mistake, with many other dominoes lined up for a perfect storm.

    My initial point in making the root post was sincerely not to initiate a root-cause analysis but to share observations on how many on both sides are expressing their frustration.

    Parent

    Root cause # 1.... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:00:47 PM EST
    is an unsustainable paper-pushing economy.

    I have the feeling if we had more machinists, and less lawyers (sorry guys:), stock brockers, paper-pushers, and desk jockeys...we wouldn't be in this mess.  Ya know...more people who actually produce something tangible, and less middle men.  We are a nation of middle men, and middle men always run the risk of getting arsed out.

    Parent

    History, kdog, history... (none / 0) (#68)
    by oldpro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:23:48 PM EST
    RE more machinists and fewer lawyers, etc:  you are aware that you are describing the case that existed during 'the great depression' of the 30s, no?

    Parent
    I don't think the great depression... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:01:26 PM EST
    came about because we had too few brokers and lawyers and too many skilled craftsmen....but I guess I could be wrong.

    I know what helped us out of it was a government investment in machinists...for the war effort.  But it need not be a war, this time we could invest in machinists and engineers to invent an engine that could solve the energy crisis.

    If we must involve the government at all....I still think we let these "to big to fail" outfits fail...there are plenty of billionaires to loan money to those with sound business models for a fee.

    Parent

    No one I kinow said it was (none / 0) (#114)
    by oldpro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:35:23 PM EST
    cause and effect...it was simply the state of affairs when the depression occured and it sure didn't prevent it, so your prescription doesn't work for me.

    Relying on someone to 'invent an engine' to solve the energy crisis seems more than a bit far fetched.

    And, while my heart is with you on letting those "too big to fail" fail, my head says those billionaires won't be lending the neighbor's kid money to go to college at a rate he can afford.

    I, too, wish the world were a lot simpler than it evidently is.  Wishing, like hoping, isn't going to solve any problems no matter what Jiminy Cricket says.

    Parent

    Any less far fetched than... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 07:48:13 PM EST
    throwing 700 more billion to the crooks in Washington and Lower Manhattan, after the 683 billion in Iraq through 2009,  12 billion per year total cost for the drug war, drilling every last drop of oil out of the gound and so on.  That prescription ain't really working for me oldpro.

    "Something is rotten in Denmark"...either we can attempt to fix it, or we can hope a future generation has the courage and imagination to do it.

    I know I'm a knucklehead and don't know jack...maybe I'll starve if Fannie and Freddie and Goldie and AIG don't get paid...but sh*t man I feel like this is an opportunity to wake the f*ck up as a nation.

    Like Ralph Kramden used to say..."Thats all I can stands I can't stands no more!"...:)

    Parent

    Heh...Ralph Kramden... (none / 0) (#119)
    by oldpro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 09:57:50 PM EST
    So...FWIW, I agree with your general description of how screwed up this mess is.  And, FYI, I'm not for bailing them out in the way the congress is considering...

    See James Galbraith's column in Wapo today...sorry, can't link...but it's entitled "A Bailout We Don't Need."

    I'm with Galbraith.

    Parent

    No one I kinow said it was (none / 0) (#115)
    by oldpro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 06:36:33 PM EST
    cause and effect...it was simply the state of affairs when the depression occured and it sure didn't prevent it, so your prescription doesn't work for me.

    Relying on someone to 'invent an engine' to solve the energy crisis seems more than a bit far fetched.

    And, while my heart is with you on letting those "too big to fail" fail, my head says those billionaires won't be lending the neighbor's kid money to go to college at a rate he can afford.

    I, too, wish the world were a lot simpler than it evidently is.  Wishing, like hoping, isn't going to solve any problems no matter what Jiminy Cricket says.

    Parent

    Oh I get it now. It was the desire (none / 0) (#85)
    by hairspray on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:27:36 PM EST
    to make home ownership more available in bills like the CRA act that Clinton was pushing when he fought Phil Gramm, Chris Dodd, and Chuck Schumer on their desire to overturn the Glass Steagal Act. That is a GOP talking point isn't it?

    Parent
    A talking point refuted by Frank as linked here (none / 0) (#89)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:48:52 PM EST
    very recently.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Faust on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:29:45 AM EST
    they are not mutually exclusive. I propose a third camp:

    People who are mad at both parties.

    Mad at Republicans because they favor the idiocy of the "invisible hand" all the while fighting for corporate welfare.

    Mad at Democrats for moving to the center, triangulating, and buying into the the Republican's bull$hit.

    See? I'm mad at both. But one side has been primarily responsible for championing the religion of the free market to the exclusion of all other ideas about how things can be run.

    Parent

    well. (none / 0) (#20)
    by connecticut yankee on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:18:37 AM EST
    The two schools of thought appear to be

    A) Republicans did it through deregulation and lax oversight at the SEC.

    B) Democrats did it by supporting Fannie and Freddie in the face of evidence of cooked books.

    It's still early days so it's difficult to trace the full chain of responsibility but the fact that the WSJ and republican posters are trying to distance John McCain and the GOP from deregulation is amusing.

    Everyone agrees that more regulation is coming and Bush himself said we can't allow companies to get into a position where they are too large to fail.

    Parent

    A little more to add (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:31:33 AM EST
    I'm hearing more than just that and it's hard to express in one posting.  However, I think that the view that de-regulation = evil and regulation = good is an oversimplified strawman that both parties are trying to politically deal with, the R's less successfully at the moment.

    Extremes in either case are not productive IMO.  There is "bad" regulation as well as "bad" de-regulation and the complete story would include examples of both as contributors.  My point of view is that the short-term benefits of housing growth rewarded both parties to the point that where whistles were blown they weren't blown loud enough and weren't responded to.

    You are correct in that the de-regulation bogeyman (all de-regulation is evil) is playing well to the crowd and that is obviously something R's haven't figured out how to address.

    Parent

    really we don't need regulation (none / 0) (#94)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:10:32 PM EST
    we just need ethics, morals and transparency...

    but we know that we have never had any of that on a large scale and never will, so the only substitute is choking regulation that suffocates change...

    if the elite won't have morals, then give them suffocating regulation...seems fair to me...

    greed is good, but only greed that looks for honest betterment....not slimy greed that just looks to cook books and mess with numbers like companies now do on WS...

    Parent

    you're right about there being two sets of (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by scribe on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:21:20 AM EST
    people on this issue, and there is some merit to the "both parties' fault" position.

    But, the underlying cause of the whole debacle remains the philosophy that holds as its tenets:

    • more tax cuts for the wealthy
    • grow by borrowing, rather than reinvesting and creating real jobs which pay well
    • make yourself wealthy by financial chicanery and casino-like "investment"
    • labor is purely an expense, which can be cut by shipping the jobs offshore to be done by slaves at slave wages.
    • regulation of financial markets, industry, or anything (other than criminalizing people who are poor, dark, or both) is anethema.

    That philosophy controls the Republican party and has been driving its policy choices and decisions at all times since about 1980.

    Besides, what ever happened to the Pottery Barn Rule:  "You break it, you own it"?

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by connecticut yankee on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:24:09 AM EST
    If you break it you hire a lawyer who argues you were never in the store in the first place.  If there are witnesses they are just partisan liars.

    Rinse and repeat for any circumstance.

    Parent

    Actually... (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by santarita on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:07:25 AM EST
    you hire a marketing consultant who advises you how to convince the public that not only did you break it, but breaking it was a good thing and the other side shouldn't complain about picking up the pieces.

    Parent
    Now this is the BINGO (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:41:58 AM EST
    moment.  This is how the right winger did it...it is the sick geniuses of the neocons.  Most recent example...how the hell did the right wing convince the people that John Kerry, purple heart winner, was a war coward, and George W, AWOL frat boy, drug user, was a military hero?  And yet they did it,

    I say it goes back decades to the Reagan era.  To this day, there are people who refuse to acknowledge the evil perpetrated on the world with th help of the Reagan administration. To this day, he is a hero.....he lied, he spun and he is a hero. Go figure.

    Parent

    Kerry/Bush yes... (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by oldpro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:31:09 PM EST
    not to mention the copycat Dems smearing the Clintons with racism...the Clintons!  Racism!  How in Gawd's name could any sentient human being buy that one?  Yet many did.

    Unforgiveable in my book.

    Parent

    Yea, that pretty much did me in too (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:08:11 PM EST
    And yet still on some blogs, the "evil Bill Clinton" meme persists with the help of people like Chris Rock and too many of the writers at Huffpo.  It still disgusts me...

    Parent
    Ignorance and stupidity. (none / 0) (#86)
    by oldpro on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST
    What a combo.

    If the Olympics ever establish events in either one I think we can field the gold-medal team from the blogs alone.

    Parent

    Another bingo: (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:08:22 PM EST
    in this case, a single indivual (Pickens) with the means and mercenary agenda to fund 90% of that smear campaign directed at Kerry -- while the benighted herd lapped it up.

    Meanwhile, no one in the (beneficiary) MSM has the cajones to broach the the subject of the extent to which those holding the purse strings have effectivly hi-jacked the democratic process -- which, last time I looked, was supposed to weigh equally in the balance the interests of ALL of the citizenry.

    Yet, after all this, many here still say people like Ralph Nader "go too far" and are craaaazy for even publicly talking about this state of affairs.

    Parent

    I think you have described "Supply side (none / 0) (#88)
    by hairspray on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:33:56 PM EST
    Economics," championed by David Stockman and Ronald Reagan.  After that tenure, we went from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation in 26 short years.  You may not be able to make a perfect cause vs effect argument, but you can sure get a very strong correlational argument.  I would say above 75%.

    Parent
    Solution first (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:24:03 PM EST
    Finding fault later.

    Except, of course, making sure that senior execs don't get compensated for leading us to the brink of disaster.

    Parent

    "I am magnanimous" (none / 0) (#58)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:37:06 PM EST
    Isn't that special.

    Parent
    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 09:52:52 AM EST
    there's no text or links only a title?

    There is a video (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 09:55:35 AM EST
    Okay (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 09:59:41 AM EST
    then something is wrong with my browser because it's not showing up.

    Parent
    I'm not getting the video either nt (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jpete on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:02:07 AM EST
    Try Firefox (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM EST
    It's off center, so you get too much (none / 0) (#14)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:14:43 AM EST
    of the left of the video pane.

    Parent
    Classic. (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:32:36 PM EST
    Tell your readers to go eat cake.

    Parent
    I don't see the video either (none / 0) (#54)
    by litigatormom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:24:22 PM EST
    Scary. Me neither. (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:26:44 PM EST
    Does anyone have the link to the video some of us (none / 0) (#117)
    by jawbone on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 08:35:38 PM EST
    can't see? T/U.

    Parent
    Clinton's own words (5.00 / 8) (#18)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:17:53 AM EST
    on another interview he said something that I thought was much more to the point:  The economy was relying on housing and borrowing for it's growth the last 8 years.  

    The lending in lower income areas under his administration, which he does not know the details, did not ask for FNMA and freddie to abandon the underwriting standards.   The Investment bankers after the bust of the dot.com started doing MBS/s without the standards.  With an underlying lie that home values would always go up.  

    Not sure if it's the same interview.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:55:11 AM EST
    but on ABC he said that Democrats for years have been "resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac".

    Bill knows everyone has their hands on this thing.

    Parent

    If you're sincere (none / 0) (#57)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:35:11 PM EST
    you should be saying, Everyone to the right of the political spectrum has their hands on this.  As it stands you're engaging in Broderist misleading.

    Parent
    Sincerity (none / 0) (#59)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:38:29 PM EST
    I'm sincerely saying that everyone has their hands on this.  Question the validity of my point, but not my sincerity please.  I do not know you sir/madam nor do you know me well enough to judge that.  Thank you.

    Parent
    Take a supportable position (none / 0) (#60)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:51:20 PM EST
    consistent with your claims.  "Everybody's hands are on this" is trivially false.

    Parent
    Continuing... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:56:27 PM EST
    Your assertion that "Everybody's hands are on this" is trivially false" is trivially false.  See... I can do that too.

    Take up your trivially false arguments with President Clinton.

    Parent

    Right, you're working to obscure what happened (none / 0) (#62)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    A sincere commenter would be interested in learning whether McCain's votes or Feingold's votes had more to do with this crisis - whether Gingrich or Kucinich or Clinton or Bush or Obama are at fault or more at fault.  A Republican plant would know the answer to the above - that conservative ideology got us into this mess - and be interested in convincing people it's everybody's fault.

    Parent
    So Bill Clinton is (none / 0) (#65)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:11:26 PM EST
    a Republican plant? Did you watch the video?

    Parent
    Did you even read this thread? (none / 0) (#67)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:23:34 PM EST
    Here's a simple refutation of the even-blame-spreading propaganda.  Which isn't Clinton's position.  

    Parent
    Check your link (none / 0) (#70)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:27:04 PM EST
    All this thread does is discuss different points of view with different people coming down on at least 3-4 sides.

    Is this really the thread you meant?

    Parent

    Hmmmm.... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:20:04 PM EST
    A disjointedly partisan Repub "plant" would be making the case that it's all the Dem's fault - likewise on the other side.  Your reference to Broder is laughable as he is one of the most reviled commentators (along with Gergen and his ilk) in the community of right wing bloggers that comment on such things.

    You would see me post a bunch of talking points concluding that the Dems only created this mess.  Easy enough to cut and paste.  However, I don't believe this.

    I am a moderate R and self-proclaimed in the past on this site, yet I've been capable of having productive conversation with others on this board previously. No fear, Sir or Madam, you're not outing me, I already have in the past.

    Now... do not question my sincerity anymore and take up your argument with President Clinton, who sees root cause as being pervasive among parties.

    Parent

    'A disjointedly partisan Repub "plant"' (none / 0) (#73)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:33:10 PM EST
    I didn't imply that you were disjointedly partisan, whatever that means, just that you're working to obscure the truth.  I'm just reminding readers that saying both parties bear some blame for the crisis is not the same as everyone is at fault (so no one is) - the former claim is true, but not very useful, the latter is misinformation.

    If you read this site then you know that your above claim that widening loan access to poor communities is behind this crisis is a lie.    If you read this site then you know conservatism is primarily at fault.  Admit that, and you can have productive conversations about whether "primarily" means "90% of all blame" or whether it means "50% conservatism, 10% liberalism, 50% human nature".

    Parent

    Please Please Please (none / 0) (#76)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:40:58 PM EST
    I'm really asking you nicely not to accuse me of being insincere.  I understand that you strongly disagree with me and respect your right to do so, after all this is TalkLeft.  

    What I'm bristling at is your claim to know my motivations and your repetitive questioning of my own convictions.

    Look at past posts of mine.  They are mixed with questions and honest attempts at dialogue, many of which have been productive.  I've not positioned my self as a concern troll and have repeatedly gone on record as one who disagrees with many points of view here but admires the quality of thought on this blog as well as the generally uplifting level of discourse, even when views expressed are not my own.

    Can we come to a point where you can at least accept my views has being sincerely held, even if you vehemently disagree?

    Parent

    Sure - just admit (none / 0) (#81)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:08:33 PM EST
    that 0) the ruck of the blame falls on conservatism, that 1) you've been mistakenly arguing for a spreading-the-blame-evenly position above and that your reject it, and that 2) you accept the community lending measures aren't at the root of the problem.

    Heck, you can skip 0) for that matter.  Without 1) and 2) though you're either a troll, dumb, or have a poor grasp of English.

    Parent

    Your comment (none / 0) (#82)
    by Pianobuff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:17:24 PM EST
    sadly reveals more about you than it does about me and so it's probably better that I stop.  Take your last shot.  Bye.

    Parent
    Another voice... (none / 0) (#91)
    by christinep on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:54:32 PM EST
    Rilkefan: Scanning these comments without regard to position (tho my gut reaction about fault & philosophy would put it in the Republican lap as you do), nevertheless, you seem to be unduly provocative in your posts by hyping your point-of-view with namecalling and ad hominem attack on others. Maybe the discussion could proceed better if you reined in that aspect a bit. Even now, I'm afraid that those who "must be right" are not going to dissuade others of their political philosophy. That process takes time; bullying words at this point may well reinforce the political opposition's belief system. Given the breadth of this "economic" fiasco, I suspect that some measure of blame will get affixed...and, because unmitigated greed apart from political philosophy may play a significant role in the money grabfest of recent years, it may be that both sides of the aisle will have their poster child moments.

    Parent
    Generally I agree strongly with your approach (none / 0) (#97)
    by rilkefan on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:21:26 PM EST
    but I've been blogging for quite a while now and I think I can differentiate between honest disagreement and trolling; and I think it's clear (as brought out by my increasingly pointed comments) that the one commenter I'm arguing with above won't engage the CRA argument and other facts established here (whether made by me tersely or by others in detail) or admit he/she is (deliberately or otherwise) conflating the some-blame-on-both-parties point with an equal-blame-for-everybody-hence-effectively-none position.  If the commenter really can't follow the argument, then my bad.

    Parent
    Stellaaa's right ... (none / 0) (#106)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:12:14 PM EST
    and the ultimate issue at the heart of all this is wage stagnation for the middle class.

    Because as long as wages are stagnant any bubble will eventually burst.

    It always comes down to jobs.  And no matter how many statistics or alphabet soup that people from the financial sector throw at you, even they cannot deny this simple fact.

    Parent

    I really like (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:17:58 AM EST
    how candid he is about the Fannie/Freddie thing, how he gives a real answer instead of just offering some political slogan.  He was the same way when they criticized him over 9/11.  I certainly can't imagine Bush ever being that reflective concerning his tenure.

    Bill Clinton is one of the world's best (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:26:48 AM EST
    communicators. Bush, not so much.

    W. needs slogans because he otherwise might forget what he's talking about.

    Parent

    An interesting comparison (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:19:14 AM EST
    Clinton sounding very cerebral and presidential on the economic issue while Bush came across last night as the antithesis of FDR with ...be afraid, be very afraid.

    can't we just re-elect (none / 0) (#95)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:17:30 PM EST
    Bill Clinton...

    it's a crisis...we should be able to make rash decisions...

    I guess we had the chance to sort-of re-elect Clinton and passed it up...we might regret that as some already are...

    Parent

    65 Trillion Dollar Credit Swap Defaults (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Richard0Thomas on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:38:05 PM EST
    Most of the world doesn't know about the 65 Trillion Dollar Credit Swap Defaults still looming. It dwarfs the mortgage crises.

    The infot is on http://coinage.me. Where the flaws are articulated in detail unlike anything you see on the news and a detail solution is provided to fix the foundation. Which everyone else seems to lack.

    Many people only see the appearances they do not see the fundamental flaw in the system itself.


    Yup ... (none / 0) (#104)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 04:50:16 PM EST
    and add to that the simple fact that in many regions real estate is still over-valued.  And most stocks are still over-valued.

    From where I sit, the only solution that will work is one whereby middle class capital grows, and their debt decreases.  And that cannot be only through home values, because after a while you'll just be back where you started.

    And the bailout won't get at this.  I'm worried that at the end of the day, even with many well-meaning provisions included, it's just another case of throwing good money after bad.

    Parent

    Moon of Alabama has been writing about the CDS's (none / 0) (#118)
    by jawbone on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 08:40:50 PM EST
    for quite awhile. May want to wander around there.

    WaMu opening tomorrow under different name--per tease on ABC Ch 7 NYC area.

    Well, Bernhard said WaMu was going under on Friday...writer for Moon of AL.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#7)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:04:51 AM EST
    I caught part of it this morning, good to hear the whole clip.


    If anyone (none / 0) (#11)
    by bocajeff on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:09:55 AM EST
    If anyone believes that this isn't a problem caused by BOTH political parties and MOST of the people in BOTH parties, then they are incredibly naive and shortsighted.

    This is NOT a problem of the past seven years, but has been in motion for the better part of 40 years (since FNMA and FHLMC were 'privatized'). Both parties have had presidents and been in charge of congress since that time. Both parties, if they had really wanted to, would have fixed the problems.

    Why would they have wanted to? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Fabian on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:15:26 AM EST
    I'm sure the people who actually understood the inevitable outcome (a minority) were drowned out by the ones who declared that nothing was wrong or if something was wrong, it wasn't a problem that needed fixing right now.

    The only person I know of who was sounding the clarion call up to two years ago was not a legislator.  A professional analyst, sure, but only a blogger, not some influential lobbyist.

    Parent

    Privatization was a way of... (none / 0) (#42)
    by santarita on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:41:48 AM EST
    getting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac off the balance sheet.  Probably their GSE status should have been revoked.

    Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac are pieces of the larger picture, however.

    Parent

    Even I wish (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:14:19 AM EST
    he would have come down a little harder on McCain's stunt. But I think otherwise he did a good job.

    Here's the problem (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:49:58 AM EST
    Trashing McCain by the pols or their surrogates does NOT work;  just ask Wes Clark.  He was thrown under the bus for being honest.  If Bill Clinton, or Joe Biden, or even Barack Obama, do not preface anything said about McCain with "I admire and respect John McCain......" they will become the story.  

    The right wing has proven how very capable they are of owning certain issues.  Going back to Ronald Reagan, a guy who was NOT a war hero, but who played one in the movies, the right has owned and framed patriotism and heroes.
    How else can someone explain how a purple heart winner, Kerry, was mocked and derided with the press silent on it, while an AWOL frat boy, W, was painted as a hero. If I did not witness that, I would not have believe it.
    During the 90s, Bill Clinton was derided as a "draft dodger" and traitor (for protesting the Vietnam war in London).  When people say Bill should go after McCain, they are being ridiculous.  Bill, the draft dodger vs John, the POW will then become the story.    

    Clinton is smart.  Don't go after McCain...go after the issues.

    Parent

    Still trying to (none / 0) (#32)
    by JThomas on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 10:57:10 AM EST
    boil this down to its simplest terms,if possible.

    Why are we here in this fix?
    I see it as a two part answer.

    1. Lenders tried to keep the loans rolling in by using sloppy lending practices which resulted in a ton of bad credit risks getting mortgages that have balloon features that only now have really started to be realized. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac took on these carte blanche.

    2. De-regulating investment banks back in 98 allowed them to skirt normal banking regs but act like banks. Then the 02 commodities future modernization Act was passed that allowed more extensive bundling of mortgage-backed securities which were bid up to an inflated value and ended up being spread across the whole financial institution universe and are now way overvalued on the books and causing huge writeoffs that threaten the viability of these companies.

    As far as blame , yes, it can be attributed to bother parties in some cases but as was indicated above the whole de-reg philosophy of the GOP allowed it to really blow up into this nightmare.

    Maybe your two points are a little too... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by santarita on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:20:32 AM EST
    simplistic.

    If you listened to the testimony of Paulson and Bernanke they listed the following:

    Failure to regulate the credit default swaps and the derivative market in general.
    Failure to grasp the fact that some institutions were too important to fail (like AIG) and to have sufficient regulatory authority over them.
    Failure to have regulatory authority over significant players in the markets.
    Failure to exercise regulatory authority and oversight responsibilities at the administrative and legislative levels
    Improper lending standards and improper lending by lenders.
    Borrowers taking loans that they shouldn't have taken.
    Depreciation of housing prices.

    Parent

    It is (none / 0) (#50)
    by robert72 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:04:30 PM EST
    greed and incompetence. Not limited to one party or company.

    Parent
    If We Want the Simplest Explanation Possible, (none / 0) (#52)
    by santarita on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:22:09 PM EST
    why not just say:

    "It's Human Nature."?

    Parent

    A discussion of the root (none / 0) (#36)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:12:28 AM EST
    causes of the problem can be helpful in designing the best solution, but if it's conducted through the lens of blame, then the discussion becomes adversarial instead of constructive. That wastes time and also makes compromise on the solution more difficult. For example, the side that is charged with being "at fault" might try to deep six a solution that would point the finger at them in favor of a less viable solution that allows them to save face. Time to put blame aside and solve the problem. Obama and McCain can hurl charges of party incompetence at each other after the bill is voted on and signed. I fervently hope that each of them will cast a recorded vote on the finished product. The voters deserve to know where each if them stands.

    Parent
    From my pov, the root of this (none / 0) (#38)
    by votermom on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:19:01 AM EST
    is lobbying and corruption. Am I wrong?

    Parent
    I could get on board with that. (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:28:52 AM EST
    And that would mean that there is enough blame to be spread all around, and we can cut to the chase and get right to work. I'm a strong supporter of public financing of campaigns for just this reason. If the taxpayers are the only ones financing campaigns and paying legislators, then the only ones they owe anything to is us. Of course, there still might be those who would try to line the pockets of their friends, but we would be in a better position to vote those bums out. Unfortunately, the people who need to pass the laws that would make public financing of campaigns mandatory have all been supported by various lobbies and have no incentive to do it.

    Parent
    I'm a big supporter (none / 0) (#96)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:21:12 PM EST
    of making lobbying illegal...without question...

    my vote should matter, and as long as there are lobbyists out there with billions of dollars then my vote doesn't matter...

    rash I know, but I'm tired of lobbyists, and I'm tired of politicians becoming lobbyists because the pay is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better....

    Parent

    As to your point regarding investment bank ... (none / 0) (#37)
    by santarita on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:13:03 AM EST
    deregulation in 1998, can you point to a specific set of regs that applied to investment banks that were eliminated?

    Parent
    Greed (none / 0) (#41)
    by Slado on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:32:55 AM EST
    is the cause of this problem.

    The housing bubble was a gold rush and we all took part.  We all know people who "flipped" houses, got rich in 2 years by buying in a hip or start-up area.  

    We all also know people who are now sitting on two houses or can't afford the house they're in because they took out a mortgage to add on, buy a car or whatever.

    We built this problem and our politicians and financial institutions where all to happy to help us.   Crying foul now and saying the gov't is both responsible and has the ability to fix the situation is the difference between being a liberal and a conservative.

    The liberal doesn't give enough blame to the people and the conservative gives to much.

    I for one don't think a bailout is necessary.  Instead we need to remove the government which "helped" create this problem by tyring to run loan institutions in a volitile market.

    Bush, Democrats and Republicnas all pushed to get more people in their homes.   Bush crowed about it in a SOTU address.   Democrats complained that not enough people where getting in homes and republicans loosened some of the regulations on the free market that would have "helped" stop the maddness but not prevented it.

    Republicans are taking the biggest hit on this because they where driving the car for 6 of the last 8 years with the president riding shotgun the whole time.  I still don't know why a democratic congress is getting of scott free as they've driven the car into the quicksad the last two years but whatever.

    The bottom line is the government can't be trusted to fix this.    The consequence of this action are unkown and the risk not big enough IMHO to justify more meddling by the partisan hacks in Washington.

    We the poeple created this mess and we the people deserve to suffer the consequences.

    Sorry, but we didn't 'all take part' in (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by WillBFair on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 02:50:19 PM EST
    the housing bubble. I don't know what creepizoid world you're talking about, but my freinds, family and I were taught the standard American values of Ben Franklyn and others: hard work, frugality, integrity, etc... We live within our means and don't try to get rich by conning others.
    Your trying to blame the dem congress is as disingenous as the lifestyle you describe. The dems have not had a veto proof majority. End of discussion.
    I'm just glad Frank, Dodd, and the Clintons are on the job. They'll figure this out if anyone can.


    Parent
    I'm with you WillB ... (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:00:45 PM EST
    a lot of us weren't part of this credit crisis.  

    Parent
    You can't have it both way (none / 0) (#110)
    by Slado on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:45:08 PM EST
    YOu didn't take part in the problem but you want others to provide the tax money to fix the situation.

    We are a democracy and "We the People" ran up bad creadit card debt and having the government create money to push the pig forward for our children to pay off isn't the answer.

    We are going to have a recession.  It's coming.   The question really is do you want to delay it through this action and have you current and unborn children pay off the debt or do you want to have us around right now deal with the consequences.

    We act like this action is going to fix this.

    Right now we are in Marty McFly mode.   We stopped our father from getting hit by the car and we got hit ourselves.   Now we are racing against the clock to make sure our dad kisses mom at the prom so we can put the future back in order.   Only problem is when we get back to 1985...well you know that there where 2 more movies right?  And each one was worse then the first.

    Parent

    I have no idea ... (none / 0) (#112)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:54:48 PM EST
    what you're talking about.

    I'm supporting nothing other than WillB's statement that not all of us participated in the credit crisis.

    Sounds like you need a cup of tea ... or something.


    Parent

    We the People are suffering. (none / 0) (#44)
    by santarita on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 11:45:10 AM EST
    So let's start fixing the problems.

    Parent
    Sounds about right to me.... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 12:27:38 PM EST
    Slado.  We all, or at least too many of us, want to live high on the hog, but we don't have the cash on hand, so we live high on the hog "on the arm", as we say on the street. Big money was more than happy to oblige, racking up the interest and fees along the way, till they got too greedy and killed the golden goose, the golden goose being the American citizen perpetually in debt to big money.

    Lots of blame to go around, for sure.

    Parent

    Easy credit in one form or another (none / 0) (#108)
    by esmense on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:23:03 PM EST
    has been supporting a decaying economy for more than 3 decades now. Easy credit, along with ordinary American's addiction to and acquiesence in ever larger amounts of personal debt, has taken the sting out of stagnating wages, inflated housing values, propped up consumer spending and masked the real cost of lost jobs and industries and growing economic inequality. It has kept us from facing economic reality, allowed us to indulge in a variety of ideology based economic delusions, muted our protests, and provided us with short term gain while leading us inevitably, from one crisis to one bubble after another, to where we are today.

    Willingly or knowingly or not, we've all been complicit in creating this.

    I realized a long time ago -- during the last Bush administration when high levels of consumer debt (records which we have since zoomed past) and high interest rates were creating problems -- that it didn't matter how fiscally responsible I was, personally. Responsible or not, my economic fate is tied to the behavior of my fellow Americans -- as a business and property owner I realized I would, short term, profit off their indebtedness. But, as an individual -- no matter how personally responsible and debt free I was -- I would, long term, suffer the economic consequences when the whole house of cards fell down. (A fact that, frankly, pisses me off.)

    Middle class people who complain about the people who took advantage of these questionable financing options should remember -- those people weren't simply grabbing a bit of the American dream for themselves, they were propping up  housing values for everyone (and keeping more people employed too).

    Even if these "unqualified" people hadn't been able to get those loans, the problem of too few genuinely qualified buyers would have inevitably both had serious economic consequences. No bail out is likely to change that fact.

    Parent

    I think the root cause is this: (none / 0) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:40:27 PM EST
    when, as a politician, you ask the question "Are you better off now than you were back then?" and more and more of your constituents are able to answer "Yes. I now own a home." and you can align yourself with the mechanics that allowed your constituents to buy that home, you get yourself re-elected.

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 01:47:11 PM EST
    I was having this argument with a conservative co-worker, when he started ranting against irresponsible government policies that did too much to encourage homeownership.  I acknowledged his point, but said "you can't just go blaming 'the government' as if these policies get enacted in a vacuum.  Politicians encourage homeownership because voters send them to Washington to implement that value."

    Mind you, I'm a suburban Midwesterner, and he's a NYC guy, so we probably come from different places in terms of appreciating the intangible value of homeownership.  But when politicians of both parties take step after step, year after year, to make homeownership easier and easier, odds are they're doing it because that's what the voters want.  Sometimes we pay the price for being a democracy instead of an "enlightened dictatorship."

    Parent

    and then you had all of these (none / 0) (#98)
    by of1000Kings on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:27:35 PM EST
    REALLY crappy development companies wasting resources on horrible things they called homes and sold them to suburban sprawlers for WAAAY more than what the house was worth, based solely on the stupid metric of square footage, and not quality or location...

    so they kept building and building with no end in sight, borrowing money to do so...and then when house prices started to fall and buyers started to dry up they all just filed bankruptcy and left the bill for building all these monstrosities to the American people...

    everyone is to blame...everyone...some more than others (ahem to all you crappy mortgage brokers who are now bankrupt) but everyone is to blame...

    Parent

    I'll own up, I made this mistake. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Alexi on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:16:23 PM EST
    I clearly remember Bush talking about how good the economy was and using as an example [and this is not a verbatim quote] the fact that more people were able to buy their own homes than at any previous time in history.

    I fell for it, and I'll be paying for it, like every other taxpayer.

    And I don't even get off the hook if Clinton had any part in it, because I voted for him twice too.

    My vote this year was going to be a protest vote, but I don't have that luxury anymore.  Now I've got to start over from scratch with the decision process, and try to figure out who (if anyone) has a reasonable plan for getting us out of this mess.  Either that or just not vote at all, and hope the smarter people make the right choice - whatever it is.

    Parent

    Fannie and Freddie can't be overlooked... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Slado on Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 05:46:52 PM EST
    This is eary and from the NYT's in 1999 no less...

    NYT