home

Palin's Miranda Bashing

Kudos to the New York Times editorialists for calling attention to an issue of critical importance to TalkLeft and to Americans who care about the Constitution:

“Al Qaeda terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America, and he’s worried that someone won’t read them their rights,” Ms. Palin said. Mr. Obama, in reality, wants to give basic human rights to prisoners in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, only a handful of whom are Qaeda members, and shield them from torture. So, once upon a time, did Mr. McCain, but there was no mention of that in St. Paul, or of the bill he wrote protecting those prisoners.

"Miranda" is a conservative code word for "stupid rights that unfairly keep criminals from being brought to justice." Miranda has nothing to do with rendition, with never-ending detention in the absence of probable cause, with tortured confessions, or with sham trials based on secret evidence that fail to provide due process. Miranda has nothing to do with the unconstitutional suspension of habeas corpus. Those are the rights John McCain and Sarah Palin are denigrating, and those are the rights that Barack Obama has repeatedly pledged to protect.

< McCain = Bush's Third Term | Media's Revenge: Ignore Palin >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    if the (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by mymy on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:54:49 AM EST
    press keeps going after her the way they have,McCain/Palin will win in a landslipe.Look at her favorables today.The press could end up being the Democrats worst enemy

    Bull (none / 0) (#87)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 07:38:41 PM EST
    It's the job of the press to expose phonies.

    Not that they do it when they should, but if they DID, it would be a positive development.  Why would anyone want them to pull  punches on this unimpressive excuse for a human female?

    Sunlight is a disinfectant.  Shine the light into dark places.

    Your post is eerily reminiscent of those Dems of the last 30 years who are afraid to take the fight to the enemy, because someone might object.  How did that work out?

    Parent

    parphrasing (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by TimNCGuy on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:11:25 AM EST
    what was said and turning it into "basic human rights" when what was said is "reading them their rights" could be somewhat misleading.

    You did something similar to another speaker at the convention in one of your "condensed" versions by using the word "brainwashed" by Europeans.  In that speech what was actually said was that we shouldn't fear Obama taking ideas to Europe, but should fear the ideas he brings back.  There was never any mention of the word "brainwash".  But, those who didn't listen to the speech and relied on your condensed version wouldn't be faulted for assuming that the speaker had accused Obama of having been brainwashed.

    No one on either side of the political spectrum likes to have words "inserted" into what they said that weren't actually there.  This is true for everyone no matter who they support.

    I think it was clear (3.00 / 0) (#15)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:28:21 AM EST
    from context that I took comedic license with the condensations.  I didn't pretend they were direct quotes.

    Parent
    The right to be presumed innocent (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:22:19 AM EST
    and the right not to be imprisoned indefinitely without an ability to challenge the imprisonment or defend yourself against actual charges, are fundamental human rights.

    Why do we want to tell the world that if we even suspect you of being a terrorist, we can jail you, torture you, and never ever let you prove that your imprisonment was wrongful -- just because you aren't American, just because you look or sound like a Muslim, just because someone with a name like yours is on some watch list?

    I have to repeat Bill Clinton's line from last week:

    People the world over have always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power.

    Why should we expect the world to respect us, to listen to us, to cooperate with us, when we are prepared to treat them as if they weren't even human?

    Correct, there are no (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Radix on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:48:05 AM EST
    "World Wide Rights" as described by our Miranda rights, guaranteed by our constitution. That's the point though. Our "Freedoms" are what's made the USA the envy of many a country, at least along the human rights area. More over, it was our long cherished willingness to grant these rights to others, because we supposedly believed that although others may not view these right as inalienable human rights, we did.

    Parent
    Says the Magna Carta (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:48:18 AM EST
    The Magna Carta recognized that right as fundamental in 1215.  The fact that not all governments respect fundamental human rights does not mean those rights are not fundamental or universal.  You might also take note of our own Declaration of Independence, which recognizes "liberty" as an unalienable right with which we are "all" endowed by our Creator (not just Americans, but "all" who have been created).  The right to liberty is meaningless if we can be deprived of it arbitrarily and forever with no recourse.

    Parent
    We brought those ideas over... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:26:49 PM EST
    and incorporated them into our own docs. But that doesn't make the Magna Carta a blanket universal document...IIRC it only applied to England.

    Parent
    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:07:19 PM EST
    to which the United States is a signatory, says:

    Article 9: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

    Article 10: Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

    Article 11:

     (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

      (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

    It is true that the Declaration of Human Rights lacks an effective international enforcement mechanism. But there does in fact exist an international document, to which the United States has officially agreed, that is intended to be an international Bill of Rights.

    There are also the Geneva Conventions, of course. These have traditionally been more practically effective than the UN's Declaration of Human Rights. The current Bush administration has been working overtime to find, and when necessary concoct, reasons why the Geneva Conventions should not apply, in cases where it finds them inconvenient.

    Parent

    We signed the Bill of Rights more than 50 (none / 0) (#43)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:39:59 PM EST
    years ago, too. Is it reasonable, in your view, to re-evaluate that agreement, signed more than half a century ago, to see whether it still applies to today's situations?

    And if not, why not?

    Parent

    You miss the point. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:15:14 PM EST
    The US Bill of Rights is held more sacrosanct than the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, in part because it is older.

    If the Bill of Rights came up for renewal every 50 years, it is highly unlikely that it would still exist in its current form. The Second Amendment would have been clarified or overturned; so would the Ninth and Tenth.


    Parent

    Dictators love.... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 05:22:38 PM EST
    unarmed peasants...especially those without Miranda rights.

    Parent
    But YOU just said... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:00:44 PM EST
    The Bill of Rights would easily pass, if it were reviewed today. "With flying colors," I think you said. Wasn't that you?

    Not that I disagree with you on the Second Amendment. But if the First Amendment had to be renewed every 50 years, I expect it would have an exception for flag-burning, or one for hate speech, or both.

    Parent

    You can put the phrase 'enemy combatants' (none / 0) (#50)
    by Don in Seattle on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:00:07 PM EST
    in quotes as many times as you like, but the phrase appears nowhere in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, nor in the US Constitution.

    Do you agree, in principle, that an innocent individual may sometimes be "picked up on the battlefield"? What legal rights should an innocent person like this have? Would you give him access to legal counsel? The right to hear and rebut the evidence against him? The presumption of innocence?

    What if, say, while you were off on a holiday in Georgia, the Russians picked you up "on the battlefield"?

    Parent

    Where have we heard that before? (none / 0) (#70)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:32:56 PM EST
    If they were there, they must be guilty.

    Parent
    Um, (none / 0) (#72)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:35:18 PM EST
    The distinction between battlefield and your living room is getting fuzzy these days.

    Parent
    has no real meaning other than it indicates that the were part of a Military action and they are not soldiers.  I had to reread the Geneva Convention (my international law class was long time ago) but doesn't deal with a situation where combatants are not state actors (soldiers, spies, non-combatant civilians, etc.)  Personally I think that not following the GC rules to the letter was a mistake... the US Military is trained to use them, and to not do so led to many of these unnecessary problems.

    On the flip side, we could have just as easily followed the same course we did today, but implemented battlefield inquires as they did in WWII to weed out non-combatants from combatants.  Moreover, with today's technology they could have been checking people for gun powder on their hands and collecting DNA samples.  In that way, even if they let the wrong person go, they would know if they ever caught him again.

    Anyway, enough rambling.  This is just my two-cents (and worth maybe half of that!)

    Parent

    The fact that not every one in the world (none / 0) (#67)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:27:32 PM EST
    can claim an enforceable legal entitlement to the presumption of innocence, habeas corpus and the right to defend oneself against criminal or other charges does not mean that we, as a civilized nation that supposedly functions as a beacon of liberty, can demand or even expect respect from other nations if we selectively deny them to people in our custody.

    Same with the right to be free from torture.

    Of course, if you don't care at all what other countries think, if you don't care that the rest of the world doesn't think it owes us loyalty or respect or cooperation, if you want to lead solely by the example of force, then nevermind.

    Parent

    Narius, we need respect from our allies (none / 0) (#78)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 05:16:45 PM EST
    We lose their respect and their cooperation when we allow our government to operate out of the bounds of what civilized societies believe is reasonable and appropriate.  We need our allies' support to fight terrorists.  This isn't about "modeling good behavior" to the bad guys, it's about being responsible world citizens.  

    We must not lose sight of why we have constitutional and other protections:  Because governments and govt. officials have and will abuse their powers.  


    Parent

    and so little time.

    Oh please (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:59:19 AM EST
    This isn't about the "battlefield." In fact, the Bush administration has repeatedly denied that the Geneva Conventions apply to Guantanamo prisoners.  I haven't seen any criticism of the Bush administration that would make it "legally impossible for anybody to fight a war."  The administration has been criticized for torturing prisoners and for holding them in captivity without due process and without proof that they are, in fact, the enemy. It's possible to fight a war without torture, without rendition, and without unreviewable detention.  And Barack Obama has never said that Miranda warnings need to be given to a captured enemy soldier on the battlefield -- this is a fiction that the right wing has invented out of whole cloth.  

    Well-written. Thanks. (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:38:04 AM EST


    Although I do question whether (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:06:30 AM EST
    this is accurate:

    those are the rights that Barack Obama has repeatedly pledged to protect.



    Parent
    This part of her speech (none / 0) (#2)
    by eric on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:44:42 AM EST
    really got my wife (crim. defense attorney) angry.    Me, too, of course.

    This fits with the theme that Republicans have been pushing about how Democrats wanted to prosecute these so-called terrorists in the criminal justice system.

    And while this anti-intellectual snide comment might get the Republicans at that convention all riled up, I don't think that Americans generally are going to be impressed.  Instead, I think Americans appreciate Miranda and have come to embrace the "reading your rights" stuff.

    It was also, I thought (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:58:36 AM EST
    a dig at those who worry too much about subjecting the terrorists to a little dunk in the water, as Dick Cheney might say.

    "Reading them their rights" was a direct reference to Miranda, but it was also a reference to their rights under the Geneva Convention.

    Parent

    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Claw on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:05:00 AM EST
    It was a wink at torture.  That line made me cringe.  Not just because it's stupid, not just because it doesn't really even make sense, and not because it's heartless...it was an applause line.  That is what's so frightening about these people.  They're howling for blood.

    Parent
    Oh, I so hope this is true (none / 0) (#3)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:53:37 AM EST
    Palin's comment was snide and shows an utter lack of respect for constitutional protections (assuming Miranda is constitutionally protected).  We also know what she thinks of right to privacy (pro-life).

    I think we should scour her statements to see what other constitutional guarantees she would undermine.  I will try to get statements in the hometown newspapers.  God, is Wasilla even online?  Makes it hard to research her.    

    Parent

    I would bet that she's not too keen (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:00:08 AM EST
    on the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, given her views on (1) teaching creationism in public schools, (2) banning books in the local library, (3) describing Iraq as a task from God, and (4) asking people to pray for an oil pipeline.

    Parent
    Yes, and 8th amendment (none / 0) (#18)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:38:34 AM EST
    Berry Jack, detainee repeatedly raped by cellmate, personally beseeched Palin for intervention in that he was being denied psychological treatment.  She was dismissive and supported DOC's refusal of treatment.

    8th amendment protects against cruel and unusual punishment.  Deprivation of treatment under these circumstances rises to the level of 8th amendmant violation.

    Parent

    As an attorney myself, I took this remark (none / 0) (#88)
    by Matt in Chicago on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:47:21 PM EST
    differently.  I didn't take it as a bashing of Miranda but rather a bashing of forcing the Military to use civil procedures during a Military conflict.  (Which IS a huge Republican issue)

    Personally I tend to be very wary of the idea of using the Military to make "arrests" that then lead to our civil courts.  Precedents have been established where citizens and non-citizens alike have been arrested, detained and now introduced into the civilian court system through Military channels.

    Be careful what you ask for, because you just might not like the long term results.  Remember when people wanted to U.S. to enter LA uninvited after Katrina?  Bye bye posse comitatus.

    Parent

    sorry (none / 0) (#5)
    by mymy on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:56:11 AM EST
    for the mispelled words .I really should read what I write before posting

    Yup (none / 0) (#11)
    by Claw on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:07:05 AM EST
    And if you don't want to be subjected to torture or unfair prosecution, don't have a Muslim name.  Simple.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#36)
    by Claw on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:25:14 PM EST
    I wonder why they're mad at us...

    Parent
    I think it was (none / 0) (#42)
    by Claw on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:36:10 PM EST
    Because they were in Iraq.  And--easy mistake to make--we confused Iraq with Afghanistan.  It could happen to anybody.
    Seriously though, it's tough to destabilize a country and then whine about the fact that it's destabilized.  But that seems to be what you're doing...  

    Parent
    Are you kidding? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Claw on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:20:50 PM EST
    We've kidnapped people from other countries because we got their names mixed up (Germany was particularly unhappy about it).  You want everyone to have a US passport?  Carry their papers on them at all times?  Jeez.  I was joking but the fact is that we put tons of people on terror watch lists, etc. just because of their names.  Nice try with the racism thing though.  

    Parent
    Um no (none / 0) (#61)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:18:18 PM EST
    Two words: Jose Padilla

    Seriously, if yuo think interrogations are no big deal then why should we make McCain out to be a hero (he is this is suppostion) after he was just subject to "enhanced interrogation."

    Parent

    I'm all for Miranda rights ... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:23:30 AM EST
    but they've never been that popular.

    The fiery cop who stands against them has been a popular heroic figure in movies and TV since they were instituted.

    Even Dirty Harry supports Miranda rigthts (none / 0) (#20)
    by Exeter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:45:04 AM EST
    and due process:
    Eastwood said that he has a deep respect for due process and Miranda rights.

    Also interesting about Eastwood -- he is a vegan and anti-hunting.

    The Miranda reference is shorthand for (none / 0) (#21)
    by Christy1947 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:45:19 AM EST
    the recogniation of rights of citizens which governments may not breach. Anyone who thinks waterboarding to get information is OK is way beyond Miranda. If anything, what this shows about Palin is her complete indifference to the protections of citizens against government which we used to think made us different from dictators. She seems to be saying that, given the choice, she would rather be a dictator. Just think what someone like her could do with all those executive power grabs the Bush-Cheney people put into practice. She'd be on the torture committee in a hot minute.

    I disagree (none / 0) (#51)
    by suskin on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:12:34 PM EST
    I think many of you missed the point that Palin made - Palin was appealing to the wide-felt sentiment that the law protects the rights of the suspect/criminal over the rights of the victim.  Miranda is not shorthand for the rights that Government shouldn't breach, but rather shorthand for the technicalities under which many a criminal "gets away with murder".  Don't get me wrong, I am all for Miranda, but that's not what this statement was about.  IMO, it doesn't do the Democrats much good to try to stretch Palin's comment into an "approval of torture" because it will only serve to open the debate and heighten the sentiment that Democrats put victims rights last.  

    Parent
    Very well said. (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:56:13 PM EST
    Most of us abhor torture (none / 0) (#59)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:58:35 PM EST
    and recognize that it's not an effective tool.  But in reality, if five members of a terrorist cell are arrested, detained and waterboarded, and three of them respond to the imprisonment and torture with matching descriptions of a plan, the Bush Admin can claim their methods have prevented a terrorist act.  This may have already happened, and BushCo is waiting until we're closer to the election to publicize it.  In fact, they could falsely claim this and there's no way to fact check it.  

    Our intellectual arguments against waterboarding will be meaningless to the average American if they take this approach.

    Parent

    Do you think bush can waterboard American citizens (none / 0) (#92)
    by Christy1947 on Sat Sep 06, 2008 at 10:25:11 AM EST
    at home?  A lot of the question turns on whether you think human rights and civil rights are only for Americans at home, who are entitled to Miranda, and for 'others' who are entitled to nothing. One of the questions which would have been tried out as to Jose Padilla had a plea deal not been made was whether the government could strip him of his rights as a US person in the US accused of something done i nthe US because they elected to categorize him as an 'enemy combatant' a wholly internal executive administrative determination unknown to the Constitution. If you start making holes in the Constitution, it will quickly become more hole than Constitution.

    Parent
    Most people think Miranda rights are a (none / 0) (#25)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:55:42 AM EST
    good thing until the person who killed one of their family members gets off because the perpetrator didn't get mirandized...

    If that happens (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:02:20 PM EST
    (and for the most part, it only happens on TV) blame the police officer who didn't follow the law.  But it doesn't happen because a Miranda violation merely results in suppression of the accused's statement.  It doesn't result in the case being thrown out.  All the other evidence against the perpetrator remains available for a jury to consider.

    Parent
    Doesn't some evidence get thrown out (none / 0) (#45)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:41:04 PM EST
    from time to time....then what happens?

    Parent
    Yes, but (none / 0) (#55)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:55:13 PM EST
    only the statements obtained in violation of Miranda and the prohibition menas the prosecution cannot present those statements in his/her case in chief.  

    NOTE, THOSE STATEMENTS CAN STILL BE ADMITTED (AND BEFORE THE JURY) FOR IMPEACHMENT PURPOSES ALONE.  NOW I ASK YOU CAN THE JURY REALLY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?  NOT LIKELY.  IT IS WHAT IT IS AND CAME ABOUT TO REGULATE THE POLICE TACTICS OF COERCION AND ABUSE.  

    Parent

    Then the case goes to trial (none / 0) (#63)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:31:57 PM EST
    without those statements, unless the defendant testifies.  If the defendant testifies and says something different than he said before, the statements come into evidence to impeach the defendant.

    Parent
    People still get off? (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:59:32 AM EST
    I thought Miranda was pretty much dead anyway, I've been arrested and not advised of Miranda, and I've heard the same from friends who have been through the ringer.

    I even mentioned it to my public defender on thatv case, she said "it doesn't matter".

    Parent

    Miranda warnings (none / 0) (#30)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:04:24 PM EST
    only need to be given after an arrest if the police conduct an interrogation. It's a myth that Miranda warnings need to be given to everyone who gets arrested.  Lots of times the police catch someone in the act and they have no need to question the arrested person, so they don't bother to give a Miranda warning.  In those situations, your public defender was right -- it doesn't matter.

    Parent
    Thanks T.... (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:15:54 PM EST
    learned my new nugget for today, I was under the mistaken impression it was required whenever someone is taken into custody.

    If you don't mind, what constitutes an interrogation exactly?  Because I was asked loads of questions post-arrest...such as if I was under the influence, for example, which I would think is an incriminating question.  I thought the right to remain silent was absolute, unless compelled by a judge.  No?

    Parent

    I think you are correct....imagine you (none / 0) (#44)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:40:09 PM EST
    answer a bunch of incriminating questions prior to an interrogation, then it is fair game...doesn't make sense, but then what does these days.  Guess the best thing is if you get arrested, keep your lip zipped, except to ask for an attorney.

    Parent
    If you are in custody (none / 0) (#58)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:58:05 PM EST
    and asked a bunch of incriminating questions, then that is interrogation.

    Parent
    There is a large body (none / 0) (#64)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:35:17 PM EST
    of law on what constitutes "interrogation" and what constitutes "custody" for Miranda purposes.  If you are arrested and handcuffed and hauled to the police department, you are clearly in custody.  If you are briefly detained for questioning but not under arrest, not handcuffed, not taken anywhere, you are probably not in custody.  In between those two extremes the law can get fuzzy.  

    Parent
    So then, what you're saying is (none / 0) (#40)
    by vicndabx on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:33:12 PM EST
    this is an idealogical problem w/Gov. Palin's statement?  

    -Note, I believe everyone should be afforded certain human rights, I'm just wondering why what she said is a problem if

    Miranda warnings only need to be given after an arrest if the police conduct an interrogation.


    Parent
    What she said is a lie (none / 0) (#62)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:30:00 PM EST
    because Obama has never said anything about reading detainees their rights. He has talked about torture, due process, and habeas corpus. Those are obviously the rights Palin was denigrating, since those are the rights Obama has actually expressed concern about. Palin's speech writer lumped them all together under the umbrella of "Miranda" because that's what conservatives love to complain about, but Obama has never suggested that Miranda is the issue.

    Parent
    Thanks for the clarification. (none / 0) (#81)
    by vicndabx on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 05:53:45 PM EST
    Since I'm not a lawyer, it helps to dialogue w/someone who understands this stuff better.

    Parent
    it probably did not matter in your case (none / 0) (#57)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:56:51 PM EST
    because you did not make incriminating statements and/or there was enough evidence, aside from the statements, to convict.  

    Parent
    If I may chime in.... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:56:56 AM EST
    but why is it that we continue to try to extend our rights to the world

    I'd like to see our constitutionally protected rights be made universal, for every living breathing human being on earth.  We can't force other nations to codify human rights protections (unfortunately), but we can practice what we preach and recognize the human rights of every individual on this planet we have dealings with.  What's wrong with that?  Isn't that something worth striving for?

    I think.... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:49:29 PM EST
    what is costing us dough is denying basic human rights.  Guantanamo costs money, Abu Gharib costs money, running the CIA costs money.

    Respecting human rights is a bargain by comparison.

    Parent

    No one is talking about enforcing our (none / 0) (#68)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:30:32 PM EST
    rights all over the world.  That's what Bush claimed to be doing when he invaded Iraq -- after, of course, it turned out there was no WMD.  "Oh, we're spreading democracy, blah blah blah."

    What I am talking about is granting certain basic rights to people in our custody and control.  If the U.S. government is holding you in custody, it cannot hold you forever without charges, without giving you a chance to challenge your detention, without giving you a chance to prove you are innocent.  At least, not if America wants to stay American.

    Parent

    Lyle is right (none / 0) (#54)
    by AlSmith on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:25:45 PM EST

    You are never going to get the public to agree that a non-US citizen enemy combatant is supposed to get Mirandized.  

    This is a losing issue.


    Now that Bush and Cheney have trampled (none / 0) (#60)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:00:03 PM EST
    all over our Bill of Rights, this indifference toward our Constitutional rights by Palin's is nothing short of chilling.  In reality, Conservatives are wary of unlimited government power.  Palin's statement is an opportunity to reach them where they have reason to fear: in their own backyard.  An argument for Miranda and other rights needs to be made in terms our government having the power to hurt regular Americans.  Our opponents are framing this discussion in terms of coddling terrorists, but it's more than that.  We need a good sound bite in response.  

    The real issue is that without protections, regular Americans can be secreted away for protesting or other activities that should be protected by the Constitution.  An American here on American soil becomes an enemy combatant if the government accuses them of terrorism.  Right now, journalists who don't cooperate with Dubya are punished by restricted access; in the extreme, those people are at risk for imprisonment.  Conspiracy theories aside, it's not unreasonable to be concerned that the financial interests that back the current Repub admin could create a crisis that endangers Americans before the election this fall.  Now that additional states are requiring paper ballots, and because of increased scrutiny and the registration drive we'll be conducting in Sept. and Oct, there's less opportunity for massive election fraud by the Repubs.  If the election is clearly going to the Democrats, we're at risk for more extreme measures like the implementation of Bush's continuity of government signing statement which can only be responded to after the fact, given that this presidential directive lacks concrete plans and instead appoints people to work on a plan.  (Note also that it seems to put Dubya in charge of all three branches of government, not just the Executive branch.)  Given the current makeup of the SC, their previous decision declaring Bush won the presidential election, the ability to manipulate public discourse by making lefties the bad guys, the willingness of the military and even the police to unquestingly participate in undisclosed activities, and the secret provisions of Bush's signing statement (the classified Continuity Annexes), we could be in for electoral interference currently untested by the courts.  

    Long post, but back to what I started with:  We need our own sound bite to counteract this because Palin just showed us she can talk the talk even though they don't walk the walk.  


    I posted this in another topic but I'll repeat it (none / 0) (#66)
    by Monda on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:23:56 PM EST
    I would like to point out one thing about the Miranda issue.  Let's not take it out of context.  That was mentioned in relations to terrorists and Al Qaida.  
    This story just hit the news the other day.  Three 18 year old girls in a village in Pakistan, who swore to marry for love, and not forced marriage by their parents, were shot and buried alive the other day.  Nobody read their "rights" before shooting them.  Looking at the bigger picture, as a someone who has studied the Middle East and further, who knows about sharia law and its implications etc, I would like people to bear in mind that we are talking about different things here.  
    Not for one moment I would advocate for abuse of power.  However, let's not kid ourselves that fondamentalism does not exist, (whether islamic, christian, etc) and reading the Miranda rights to it cannot be the first priority.  

    I'm a democrat, however, I come from a country who was occupied by the Ottoman Empire for 5 centuries, and I know first hand its consequences.  At the moment, there is a threat of extreme islam growing, albeit in small parts of the society.  It's there, and it's scary.  

    Again (none / 0) (#69)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:31:24 PM EST
    it's not about Miranda. It's about a panoply of human rights. That certain societies deny human rights within their boundaries is no excuse for the United States, which believes in human rights, to deny those rights within the boundaries of its authority.

    Parent
    TChrist (none / 0) (#73)
    by Monda on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:42:12 PM EST
    I respect you and Jeralyn a lot, and the work you do in this field.  However, I do believe that in present times, reading Miranda rights to suspected terrorists who are not citizens of the United States, it's not exactly a priority.  In the case of US citizens, the laws of this land must apply.  
    Geopolitically the world is not black and white.  
    Let me make myself clear, that I oppose torture of any kind.  But the mindset of these people is too dangerous to be treated lightly.  

    Parent
    "These people" (none / 0) (#76)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 04:57:15 PM EST
    You are making the dangerous assumption that everyone the Pentagon claims to be a terrorist is actually a terrorist.  Given the number of people who have been released from Guantanamo after years of detention, we know that isn't true. We have constitutional rights like due process precisely to assure that whether a person is innocent or guilty (of terrorism or any other crime) is determined fairly.

    Parent
    "TChrist" :-) (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 05:36:43 PM EST
    I appreciate the promotion (none / 0) (#83)
    by TChris on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 06:25:14 PM EST
    What Bush wants (none / 0) (#71)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 03:34:49 PM EST
    What Bush really wants -- and has in significant degree actually done -- is to create a little black hole where no law applies at all. No constraints on however he wishes to exercise his powers as commander in chief.

    Well, if there is a battlefield, why don't the military codes and the Geneva Conventions apply?  And if there is no battlefield, then why is Bush acting as commander in chief?

    Bush/Cheney have done a good job (none / 0) (#82)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 06:24:18 PM EST
    of skewing the debate about the "war on terror. We no longer seem to be able to define criminals, terrorist, enemy combatants or soldiers. They are correct in saying that this is not your traditional "war" with armies and battlefields. I don't think that the way we have gone about this "war" has been effective. Other countries use their laws and constitutions to arrest and prosecute people who want to blow things up and kill people. They call them criminals.
    In February of 1993, the WTC was attacked the first time. The perpetrators of that crime were arrested and prosecuted under our existing laws and criminal justice system. I saw no reason for the "Patriot Act", suspending habeus corpus, special courts, secret prisons or any of the things that the Bush/Cheney cabal has done to trample on the Constitution. There are many conservatives who feel as I, an alleged "liberal",do. See what Bruce Fein has to say on the Constitution and the possible war crimes that have been committed by this administration in the name of keeping this country safe from terror. Palin"s one liner about Miranda is just another way to blur the argument that this country has taken on a nebulous war that only exists because they say it does.

    Parent
    Other coutries and the International Court (none / 0) (#84)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 06:30:02 PM EST
    call them criminals and prosecute them for acts of terror.


    Parent
    Yes , he could be (none / 0) (#86)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 07:05:27 PM EST
    As well as, just about any other US President that has intervened in someone else's conflict or started one for their own agenda.
     And although war is legal under International Law, genocide is not.


    Parent
    Actually, they DO apply (none / 0) (#91)
    by litigatormom on Sat Sep 06, 2008 at 12:02:45 AM EST
    to non-uniformed combatants, including spies and saboteurs (a/k/a terrorists).  There are specific provisions in the Conventions that apply to such combatants.  While they do not have as many  procedural rights as uniformed combatants have, they are NOT in a legal black hole as far as the Conventions go. And they definitely have the right not to be tortured.

    Parent