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Not A Game: Time To Talk Reconciliation

Via dougj, sardine:

The reality is this debate really isn’t about politics, it’s about health care. It’s not left or right, it’s about all of us. People need help. They can’t afford their health care bills. People are dying. The crazy health care expenses are hurting businesses. Please don’t turn your back on these people. If you join with the Republicans and block health care reform, you’re basically saying to the American people – go f*ck yourselves.

I want to expand this plea to the people who can decide they do not have to depend on Ben Nelson, Mary Landrieu or Blanche Lincoln. They are President Obama, Senate Majority Leader Reid and Speaker Pelosi. They know they can pass a bill via reconciliation. Of course they prefer not to. But they MUST let the players know they will if they are forced to. And they need to let people know NOW. This is not a game.

Speaking for me only

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    Of course it's a game (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:26:18 AM EST
    You think they really care about the people? Only as far as "the people" will continue to give them money and re-elect them.  But since something like 95% of incumbents get re-elected, and this seemingly false sense of security Dems have from convincing themselves the Republican party is in complete shambles, then no one is really concerned with what "the people" want or need.

    Of course it's a game - about power and influence.

    And don't overlook the fact (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by SOS on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:10:14 PM EST
    there are over 6 million people unemployed over the age of 65 looking for work. People who can't afford "retirement." As record unemployment continues to snowball in the meantime.

    Don't forget to send us your $25, $60, or $100 contribution today though and everything will be great.

    Parent

    Because it's a game for Versailles... (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by lambert on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:37:11 AM EST
    ... doesn't mean that the peasants don't really die. Remember this from Taibbi?
    Certain members of one of the president's cabinet departments only got wind of how hard it is out there for ordinary people to pay their bills when they invited in a major corporation to give them a presentation about their financial outlook for the holiday season -- and through that report found out that this company's prospective customers were spending less because large numbers of them had been laid off, or had huge medical bills, or had maxed out their credit, and so on.

    Letters from customers, survey answers and such, were read to the cabinet group. And they were shocked. This is how they find out about the economic reality of this country -- accidentally, from a major campaign contributor! That's how out of touch these people are.


    Remember, Versailles hates the smelly peasants, always has.


    This is so true about this administration (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:47:09 PM EST
    They are so out of touch.  They can't think in terms of little people, average people, people dodging bullets, people dodging airstrikes....that is where this administration is very scary.

    Parent
    For example: pronouncement re (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:52:42 PM EST
    swine flu is national emergency.  And, oh, BTW, not enough vaccine available.  Ho hum.

    Parent
    I know (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:55:27 PM EST
    And what is extremely pathetic is that most of us could have called that upcoming reality now visiting us all.

    Parent
    Vaccine MIA (none / 0) (#41)
    by norris morris on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:14:25 PM EST
    Bad planning to say the least. We were made aware well in advance that Swine Flu was a serious killer of epidemic proportions.

    So not enough was ordered, and maybe [??] if the doses prepared for women were smaller, there'd be more to go around?

    It does take time to grow a virus and prepare  vaccines, but this should also have been planned for. This is a sloppy effort and falls short of giving us the protection we deserve.

    Parent

    Why don't you (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 04:37:58 PM EST
    actually read up on a couple news stories about the reason for the underproduction of vaccine.  It would be less fun than making stuff up to suit your preferred narrative, I realize, but you'd sure look smarter.

    Parent
    Vaccine actually ahead of schedule (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by huzzlewhat on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 04:58:01 PM EST
    As I understand it, It takes 6 months at minimum to produce a vaccine, and researchers usually work from the previous year's virus sample. H1N1 was only identified in April of this year, so the researchers didn't have a virus to develop a vaccine from until then. So the fact that we have vaccine now is pretty much the best that could be hoped for.

    Parent
    When Cornel Wilde (none / 0) (#80)
    by hairspray on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 10:36:04 PM EST
    says these things on The Colbert Report you know there is something to it.  On the other hand, I did see David Axelrod and his wife on 60 minutes talking about their epileptic daughter and what they have gone through.  That certainly has to have had some impact on their compassion.

    Parent
    Yes, but (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by rrot on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:22:25 PM EST
    Isn't it the case that even the bill passed in the reconciliation fantasy isn't going to end or, really, do much to reduce "crazy health care expenses?"

    That is the case, isn't it?

    We're still going to be spending twice as much, per person, on health care than every comparable country continuing into the foreseeable future -- even under the fantasy reconciliation scenario, right?

    We're just going to be trying to cap it at two times the expense, just slow the growth, yeah?  But we'll still spend twice or more what the Canadians, Germans and Swiss spend.  Two or more times what the French, Brits, Dutch and Spanish spend.

    No question, it will be a significant victory to provide some level of insurance to people who don't have anything, but let's not Kid Ourselves: nothing remotely on the table in our great nation is contemplated that has any chance at all of changing our System of "crazy health care expenses."  

    All the players agree: "crazy health care expenses" are and must remain a Permanent feature of the US system.

    Correct (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Slado on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:31:14 PM EST
    Giving people who don't have insurance insurance will not "reduce costs".  How could it?

    Without limiting regulations, allowing HSA's, serious tort reform, huge federal investment in technology sharing etc... etc... how could the system get better.

    This whole thing has become so partisan nothing good can come from it.

    If Obama really was bipartisan and wasn't trying to ram home a liberal fantasy then the government could do what it says it's going to do.

    Instead they will ram through an awful bill which will spend billions of dollars to get a few million people into the already broken system.

    Parent

    Isn't it amazing (5.00 / 10) (#20)
    by Steve M on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:33:40 PM EST
    that we have much higher costs than any other country, and yet we keep hearing that the way to fix it is a bunch of free-market solutions that don't exist in any other country either.

    Parent
    Shouldn't that be (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:45:11 PM EST
    unaffordable free market solutions?

    Parent
    well, (none / 0) (#47)
    by bocajeff on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:46:33 PM EST
    we never really answer "why are health care costs so much higher in the U.S. than elsewhere?" One side answers the quality of care and the other side says it's insurance companies fault. It can't be that simplistic and yet I don't have the full answer.

    My initial guess is that Americans demand more in every way from quality of care all the way through to lawsuits and salaries.

    Anyone have a breakdown as to why the costs are so much higher...?

    Parent

    The root of the problem is in (5.00 / 6) (#55)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:02:55 PM EST
    the widely fluctuating pricing and a system that is unreliable about paying (private insurers quixotically denying claims).  The industry is totally unstable and unpredictable and therefore it suffers from a huge problem with exorbident inflation.  The inflation is derived from a pricing structure that folds in anticipated losses.  There are people who claim that it is "unfair" for a healthy person to have to pay the same premium as a sick person, but what they don't understand is that the current system is inherently far more unfair and illogical than what we would have if we all paid the same basic premium (offset to account for wealth or lack there of) than we do with this over complicated and imprecise pricing system we have now.

    Parent
    thanks, but (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by bocajeff on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 03:19:50 PM EST
    can you give an example...

    Parent
    Well, one example would be in (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 04:35:32 PM EST
    hospitals where a patient is treated for say a heart attack.  They perform triple bypass surgery which generally runs around $80,000 to $100,000.  The patient has insurance so no problem right?  Well, the insurer comes in after the fact to review the case and finds some reason for denying the claim.  This denial can be based on an assertion that the patient didn't disclose their condition when they signed up or that the hospital should have done a far less expensive surgery or whatever.  So, the hospital is out $80,000+ and has to turn to the patient for that payment.  The patient doesn't have that kind of money or assets and the patient has too weak a heart to actually work anymore.  Or the patient up and dies and the hospital gets the estate which is maybe worth $5,000 or $10,000 total.  How do they make up for the rest of the costs?  By trying to average those kinds of losses into all of their pricing structure.  So the $80,000 to $100,000 in our original patient is a padded price that in part covers other patients who can't pay their bill.  So the more people who can't pay their bill, the more the hospital feels the need to pad the price to cover for losses.  As the potential for non-payment grows, so do the prices - all they are doing is covering risk which they have to do if they are to stay in business.  This is basically happening across all of the healthcare provider sector.  Docs have to do it, labs are doing it and pretty much every other related healthcare business is doing it because the increase in the uninsured and the increase in denial of claims has hit critical mass.  They have to cover costs and that includes sometimes huge losses as well.

    I won't even get into the problem of the insurance companies' negotiated rates which basically puts pressure on the providers to do more with a lot less and incentivizes them to inflate prices on whatever they feel they can get paid for in order to keep their full compliment of services in tact.

    Parent

    A short answer (that gets longer) (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by rrot on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 05:24:27 PM EST
    Is that it's Because of The Free Market.

    We insist that there must be multiple levels of Profit Making in our system.  Those profits (and don't doubt for a minute that there's also graft and fraud in there as well) increase our costs over other countries.

    Those multiple levels of profit making are all accompanied by multiple levels of administration.  The administration doesn't improve outcomes (most people who Actually Have insurance find that when they use it there's a nightmarish administrative paperstorm coming from their insurers, doctors, and hospitals).  These multiple levels of administration are hugely expensive.

    Examples, you ask for below?  Get real!  The entire American system is an example.  Ask how it's done in any other western country.  That's the explanation for our costs: The rest of the sane world doesn't do it this way!

    (By the way, you say "one side answers the quality of care."  Bwah ha ha!  The USA Does Not Have better quality of care.  We don't have better outcomes.  We don't have better infant mortality.  We don't have better lifespans.  These other countries are getting just as good health care as we are.)

    Parent

    I couldn't agree more (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:44:50 PM EST
    The people have been so demoralized too, but they can't take much more.  This is the time to draw that HARD line.  Once this is done too, everybody who tried to kill it could find themselves in a patch of big trouble with their little people.  The corporations have bled us all dry to the point they are going to be going bankrupt next election cycle.  Will my dollars ever buy me my representatives back?

    It's not just Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by SOS on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:51:34 PM EST
    the biggest problem is our shift to de facto Absolute Corporatism.

    How can we can cultivate a sane Health Care system under this type of scenario?

    They're all going to be going broke (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:53:20 PM EST
    I think the worship of the corporation is on its way out.

    Parent
    But they control everything (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by SOS on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    now. We're the American people given a seat at the negotiating table when it was decided our tax dollars would bail out these Behemoths?

    No, we were not.

    Parent

    No we were not (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:11:05 PM EST
    And they have proven what they will do to us with all of the checks and no balances.  If corporations are now next to humanoid...well, they are our tweaking junkie Uncles who burnt our house down for an insurance policy that now can't pay and they are holding up the gas station this minute.

    Parent
    How long can theTaxpayers (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by SOS on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:21:26 PM EST
    of the United States afford to keep these Entities solvent? And for what? So CEO's can golf in Scotland or run a U.S. corporation from a Villa in Croatia? Or hang out with Balmer in France?

    This isn't going to end pretty. That's what I think.

    Parent

    I don't (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by magster on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:31:42 PM EST
    In many ways this health care reform debate is about who do Democrats represent, corporations or people.

    As if health care reform was not important enough on its own.

    Parent

    Unfortunately (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by magster on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:52:43 PM EST
    it is a game, and its the progressives play.  Time for an anonymous source to leak that a bill with a stronger public option meant to comply with budget reconciliation rules is being prepared for the parliamentarians review.

    Show the Conservadems that reconciliation isn't a bluff.

    According to something I just read (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:50:09 PM EST
    over at dk, the House bill has a weaker PO as of just a short while ago - they couldn't whip the votes for Medicare +5 so it's out apparently.

    So... The stronger version thing, probably isn't going to happen - but I love the idea.

    Parent

    Did you see this? (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:56:53 PM EST
    From FDL News Desk:

    The Hill has now published that House whip count on a Medicare + 5% public option referred to by Greg Sargent and a couple others yesterday. It would be good to know who leaked this and exactly where they stand on the public option. Because Chris Bowers, citing a source, one we share and one who is more inclined toward the Medicare + 5% public option, says that the whip list is inaccurate.
    All of the 12 undecideds, except one (Representative Ann Kirkpatrick), are actually "yes" votes. That brings the total to 200.

    Further, two of the "no" votes listed on the document, Eric Massa and Artur Davis, are actually "yes" votes. That makes 202.

    Also, after November 3rd, at least one new supporter of the public option will be sworn into the House (the winner of the CA-10 special election). That makes 203.

    Yet further, six of the "lean no" votes are actually "lean yes" votes, and that five of the members listed as "no" votes are actually "lean yes" votes. Those 11 "lean yes" votes are Representatives Giffords, Klein, Maffei, Nye, Sanchez, Scott, Lipinski, Scott Murphy, Costa, Cardozza. That would make 214.

    Finally, the source argues to me that if the whip count was conducted differently, then the Progressives could probably get over the top. Specifically, instead of asking members if they will vote for a health care bill with Medicare +5% public option, the whip should be asking if a Medicare +5% public option is a dealbreaker for members.

    Basically, there are 53 targets, then, for progressives - the 11 "lean yes" and "undecided" votes (Ann Kirkpatrick is undecided), and the 42 Blue Dogs and ConservaDems who have been leaning no. That would be two listed in the "Lean No" category on the public whip doc (Boyd and Halvorson), along with 40 in the No column (everyone but the seven listed above). There will be an all-out effort from the netroots and progressives over the next 36 hours to corner those 53 and ask them whether they would vote against a bill with Medicare + 5% rates. Basically the decision will be made between now and then, and progressives need to flip 15 of those 53, getting the 11 to be hard yes votes and flipping four other no votes.

    Bold is mine.

    Parent

    Not reconciliation (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by MikeDitto on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:27:46 PM EST
    Nuclear option. The obstructionism of everything from nominees to bills to setting the schedule is completely unprecedented. The cloture process was supposed to be for extraordinary circumstances only. They can't even get unemployment insurance extended in the middle of the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression. They can't get a surgeon general confirmed in the middle of the worst flu pandemic since 1918.

    I'm ready to go nuclear.

    Sure, sounds good to me (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by andgarden on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:30:01 PM EST
    Nuclear (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by norris morris on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:24:12 PM EST
    The White House and this Democratic majority in both houses has produced really NOTHING.

    I voted for change.  I got screwed.

    Democrats do not know how to rule. This entire Healthcare mess along with other messes shows Dems as disorganized, selfish, politically scattered and inept, and most of all ineffective and spineless.

    Obama's clear need for political cover by sitting on the fence during the Healthcare Debate is  the sign of weak and opportunistic leadership.

    So far Obama has not offered us the leadership he promised.

    I too have gone nuclear.

    Parent

    Let's call it something else (none / 0) (#81)
    by FreakyBeaky on Thu Oct 29, 2009 at 12:43:39 AM EST
    Nuclear Option sounds so scary.  Let's try Majority Vote Option, Upperdown Option (particularly like that one), or Democracy Option.

    But my all means, let's get rid of the filibuster - if not the Senate.

    Parent

    Corporate America will win again (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:59:33 PM EST
    The days of a Senator "of the people" is long gone. Campaign costs are in the multi-millions today. Corporations aren't spending millions of dollars each year on candidates because they believe in democracy. They're paying them very well to do their bidding.

    If you look back at the banking industry, between the bankruptcy bill and the bail out, they've done extremely well on their investment.

    The same is true of Cheney's do nothing energy bill as well as the telecommunications bill.

    So why would we expect anything different in HCR? The corporate players aren't about to lose.

    In early 2010, Obama will move leftish (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Yes2Truth on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 04:07:45 PM EST

    Expect Obama to pander to liberals (aka today as
    Centrists) beginning right after New Years.

    His pandering will take the form of faux concern
    for gay rights, senior citizens (maybe a "hard" push for that big $250 "bailout" - or maybe even
    a call for SS COLAs to include the price of food,
    housing, and energy), or maybe an overture to
    illegal aliens (amnesty?).

    Will it work. Yes.  Will it inoculate Obama against
    any potential rivals for the D nomination in 2012?
    Yes.  Will it be enough, in conjunction with his
    corporate/financial puppet masters to ensure his
    re-election in 2012?  My guess is that it will.

    Well, you certainly called your shot (none / 0) (#78)
    by lambert on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 07:39:37 PM EST
    If the depression is W or L shaped, though, all bets are off. I think "Too little, too late" is going to be the reaction of many people.

    Another reason why the "progressive" refusal to push Obama left was so damaging, at least if you consider the larger interests of the American people -- there's no baseline to set Obama's pandering against.

    Parent

    There's a problem with this arguement (4.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Slado on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:17:57 PM EST
    The actual democratic proposals will not help the system.

    We'll spend billions of dollars to make sure some of the uninsured are insured (and they can already get healthcare).

    All the rest will still happen because this is not healthcare reform, it's insurance reform.

    Democrats have not sold the American people that their version of insurance reform will stop any of the problems from happening.

    Enriching The Insurance Industry (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by norris morris on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:14:11 PM EST
    Without a strong public option and well thought out implementation and design, anything else simply enriches  the Insurance Monopoly beyond their wildest dreams.

    Millions will still be left uninsured, and a bad bill will force many to do what we are doing now. Paying an intermediary [Ins Co] huge premiums for
    inadequate coverage, and delivering millions of new victims to them.

    Healthcare Insurance companies provide nothing. They sit at desks, deny claims, and as an itermediary they are allowed to get away with robbery and murder.

    And today we finally read in the NYTimes that Billy Tauzin, the Drug Industry lobbyist earning $2million a yr has made a deal with Senate Finance Committee for 80 billion over 10 years in a drug deal approved by the White House.

     Tauzin is the rat that gave Seniors the rotten MedicareRx PlanD with it's doughnut hole, meaning NO coverage while Seniors still continue to pay premiums.  Billy Tauzin once a Democratic Congressman and now a Republican, fashioned this monster along with Tom Delay who pushed the vote through three times until at midnight the vote  sought was arrived at. A victory for Big Pharma.

    This is who the White House has cut a deal with. What deal exactly? Tauzin has kept the DETAILS along with the WH close to their vests. Of course if we the people knew what was in this bill we might object.  This is very discouraging when we sit by passively as Obama and crew cut deals like this with Big Pharma and don't inform the public.

    Transparency? Honesty? Change?

    Baloney.

    Parent

    Enriching the insurance monopoly (none / 0) (#60)
    by lambert on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:44:37 PM EST
    That's the feature part. Where's the bug?

    Parent
    there is a reason (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:21:12 AM EST
    the health care and pharma industries have spent more than anyone else on the planet to buy legislators.

    its pucker time.  

    Why? (none / 0) (#2)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:23:52 AM EST
    Of course they prefer not to.


    because they are gutless (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:35:18 AM EST
    mewling bought and paid for and they do not want to bite the hand feeding them so generously.


    Parent
    I expected the answer to be: bipartisanship. (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:23:20 PM EST
    Well, a definition of bipartisanship (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Cream City on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:37:41 PM EST
    these days is mewling.  Darned unseemly for a party that allegedly won and is in power but instead behaving like a herd of mewling pussies, huh?

    Parent
    "Mewling pussies" (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Spamlet on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:39:03 PM EST
    Please do not insult my cats. I prefer "craven weasels."

    Parent
    Wish BTD would answer my question though. (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:39:37 PM EST
    Do Reid and Pelosi care about bipartisanship?  We know Pres. Obama does, but what about the others?

    Parent
    IMO, Pelosi no, Reid yes (none / 0) (#36)
    by DFLer on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:01:15 PM EST
    A couple of reasons I can think of (none / 0) (#46)
    by Demi Moaned on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:44:33 PM EST
    1. It will require multiple bills. Even those most willing to adopt reconciliation concede that only part of the program is eligible (the money parts). Granted these are the most important parts, but that still leaves another bill that you have to get through both houses of Congress and that would presumably still be subject to filibuster.
    2. Even so, it's somewhat controversial whether these matters are eligible. It's pretty clear that the Democrats can override the objections, but many would prefer not to go there.


    Parent
    Do I recall a blogger asking: (none / 0) (#4)
    by ChiTownDenny on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:29:05 AM EST
    "Will Obama Fight For The Public Option?"
    Proof is in the Pudding!  Time to hold this WH's feet to the fire.

    Just what can be done (none / 0) (#5)
    by MKS on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:35:09 AM EST
    via reconciliation remains unclear....

    Can the public option be deemed a budgetary matter and approved via reconciliation?

    I'd like to see the whole bill put through via reconciliation--with 51 votes, or 50 with Biden casting the tie breaker.  

    Clinton's tax increase in 1993 needed Gore to cast the tie breaker vote....

    The Public Option is (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:56:12 AM EST
    not at risk as it is budget germane.

    The mandate might be though.

    Certainly the "regulatory" stuff would be out.

    I like having the mandate be up to the Parliamentarian. Scare the insurance hacks.

    Parent

    Since you can't do the mandate without the (none / 0) (#17)
    by steviez314 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:23:24 PM EST
    subsidies, they would both be budget germane.

    Even without a public option, the subsidies (that would end up with the insurance companies) would be a budget item.

    Parent

    The subsidies (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:28:08 PM EST
    are budget germane. The mandate is not.

    The public option requires seed funding for organization and is therefore budget germane.

    The Medicaid eligibility and money is budget germane.

    The roll of the dice here is for the insurance hacks, not progressives.

    They have a lot more to lose.  

    Parent

    I don't want to put 60 Dems in the position of (none / 0) (#24)
    by steviez314 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:40:07 PM EST
    having to vote to force people to buy insurance (especially since the assistance for them to do so is in the other bill).

    But I do want to put 40 Republicans (and 1 putz) in the position in having to vote against making the insurance companies drop their evil pre-existing and recission policies.

    It just seems cleaner to keep the mandates and subsidies together, so I wouldn't push the parlimentarian on that one.

    Parent

    That's not anyone's call (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:50:14 PM EST
    but the Parliamentarian's.

    He decides what he will opine on. If you put the mandates in with the subsidies, it is obvious the subsidies are germane and the mandates are not.

    It is pretty simple.

    Parent

    Except the Dems can overrule the parliamentarian (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by magster on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:57:12 PM EST
    with a 50 + 1 vote.

    All the RealDems need to do in that case is make a convincing case that mandates plus subsidies combined is germane.  Shouldn't be too hard for a group of lawyers to do -- I make up stuff that sounds convincing all the time.

    Parent

    Speaking of the parliamentarian.... (none / 0) (#34)
    by steviez314 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:56:31 PM EST
    does Jeralyn know him?  He grew up in New Rochelle and went to New Rochelle HS.

    Parent
    Hilarity (none / 0) (#62)
    by lambert on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:49:13 PM EST
    It really couln't be funnier and sadder.

    If you say, as I keep doing, that the bill forces people to buy junk insurance, the response from "progressives" (besides silence, of course) is that the subsidies will take care of it. (It takes GENIUS to frame universal health care as welfare, but our Dems have managed to do that.)

    The mandate (the "forces people") part is not budget germane (except to the household budgets of the American people, of course), and so it's going to go through like grass through a goose.

    The subsidy (mitigates the "junk insurance" part) is budget germane, so it's going to be hacked and slashed to the lowest possible amount.

    I'm so glad I'm not a process Democrat.

    Parent

    Actually, you have that backwards. (none / 0) (#75)
    by steviez314 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 05:50:35 PM EST
    Since the subsidies are a budget item, they only need 50+1 votes (as long as they are budget neutral over 10 years).  So, they can be big.

    The mandate, since it's not a budget item, would need 60 votes.  If you made believe that it was a stand-alone bill, you couldn't possibly get 60 votes to force people to get insurance (since the subsidies to help the poor are in another bill).

    Parent

    Finally, I've been too cynical! (none / 0) (#76)
    by lambert on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 07:32:55 PM EST
    Thanks for the correction.

    Parent
    Reid says (none / 0) (#8)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:37:51 AM EST
    "it's always an option." (HuffPo)  Durbin is okay with it too.  I realize those aren't exactly fighting words, but they're keeping the door open.

    It would be nice to see the moral argument for healthcare made.  That's just been totally lost.  The only time you hear it is when it is brought up to defend the marginal gains a Baucus type bill would bring.

    I think we can tweak Lieberman though.  

    I'd love to see the economic (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:56:57 PM EST
    argument for healthcare made.  These people keep blowing it getting sucked into the penny wise and pound foolish debates about the deficit in like 2014, but haven't a clue it seems about how spending here may well end up in huge dividends for this country.  We know for sure that the track we are on now because of exponential inflation in healthcare costs and premiums is only going to further weaken our overall economic position; and yet fixing that seems to be "too expensive".  Ridiculous.

    Parent
    Single payer folks have made this argument... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by lambert on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:52:47 PM EST
    ... over and over again.

    Unfortunately, to make that argument, you need to break the ability of the insurance companies to charge their economic rents of thirty cents on every dollar.

    That means either single payer or extremely tight regulation a la Germany.

    And nobody in Versailles, incuding "progressives," is willing to take that on.

    And so  the "little single payer advocates" are censored, and the economic argument isn't made -- because no public option advocate can make it and win.

    Parent

    Well, no weak public option proponent (none / 0) (#72)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 04:39:53 PM EST
    can make the argument and win, but a robust national public option open to all proponent could offer more hope that the economic impact would be significant enough to be worth the effort.

    Germany's model would never work here.  The regulations, if they ever passed, would be eliminated within about three Congressional terms, imo.

    Parent

    Except the robust public option was never, never.. (none / 0) (#77)
    by lambert on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 07:36:34 PM EST
    .. on offer. That's why the bait and switch from Hacker's Medicare-style program, with 130 million enrollees, today's (CBO-estimated) 9 or 10 million, was so harmful.

    Parent
    I agree with you. (none / 0) (#82)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Oct 29, 2009 at 07:27:16 AM EST
    I'm just trying to talk about the reasons why anything less than a national - universally available - public option is the only compromise solution worth passing.  Even that, has the potential to fail to meet the stated objectives of this reform exercise, but it has a better chance than any other idea that they are actually allowing for in the debate does.

    Parent
    Durbin sent out a poll this AM (none / 0) (#9)
    by nycstray on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 11:43:42 AM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:01:45 PM EST
    I will say that Pelosi seems to realize what's at stake here but I'm not sure about the others. It is just a game to Obama and has been teh whole time it seems. All he's intereseted in is getting a "win" in against the teabagger types. Reid might be shaping up here but it remains to be seen.

    Oh, (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:02:45 PM EST
    adn the GOP is already patting themselves on the back for "killing the bill".

    good thing the the GOP... (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Dadler on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 12:06:15 PM EST
    ...didn't try to beat their chests, as their hands would fall into those black holes where their hearts used to be.

    Parent
    Anyone have a good source for (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:12:07 PM EST
    generic info on reconciliation procedure?  Role of parliamentarian?  Etc.?  Thanks.

    A good start (none / 0) (#64)
    by robrecht on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:54:10 PM EST
    Thanks. Complicated, no? (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 03:07:28 PM EST
    Breaking: House bill has negotiated rate... (none / 0) (#48)
    by magster on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:47:09 PM EST
    and opt-out.

    Horrid news.

    What the hell?? n/t (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by lilburro on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:54:36 PM EST
    Missed the opt out in the article (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:01:34 PM EST
    also the story seems sketchy - "The price tag, topping $1 trillion over 10 years, would be paid for by taxing high-income people and cutting some $500 billion in payments to Medicare providers."

    No way that is how the House is framing it - obviously this is an AP Blue Dog fed story.

    Parent

    James Clyburn was on TV (none / 0) (#56)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:04:22 PM EST
    yesterday saying that this might happen.  So I am not sure I am quite as skeptical as you are about this story at the moment.

    Parent
    It's buried right at the end.. (none / 0) (#57)
    by magster on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:10:20 PM EST
    ... if you still don't see it.

    "Instead, the health and human services secretary would be allowed to negotiate rates with providers and the program would be optional for states, the approach preferred by moderates and the one that will be featured in the Senate's version."

    Arguably, that could mean opt-in too, although I'm sure it doesn't mean that.

    Parent

    Jon Walker at FDL (none / 0) (#61)
    by magster on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 02:44:55 PM EST
    respondend to a question about whether the AP was right about opt-out, and he said AP was wrong.

    So that's some small comfort, I guess.  

    Parent

    Doesn't get it (none / 0) (#50)
    by me only on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 01:51:28 PM EST
    Lunacy:

    The crazy health care expenses are hurting businesses.

    Reply

    Employers of 12 million Americans:

    Some of the nation's largest companies pushed back against U.S. Democrats' plans to deliver a government-run insurance option in a healthcare overhaul, decrying it as a step backward that would drive up costs for employers and their workers.



    Reconciliation--where are we (none / 0) (#69)
    by christinep on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 04:08:02 PM EST
    Two things: (1)Allow me to be odd-woman out here, because I am still optimistic even for the 60 votes on cloture.  (e.g., Landrieu needs every Democratic vote she can get with an especially large black turnout to win---hmmm, bodes well for her vote; Lincoln is from Arkansas, and I'm sure that the top-notch Democrats can figure out a way to reinforce the importance of fundraising and enthusiastic Dem turnout in the state of Arkansas of all places---hmm, doesn't sound too bad; Nelson is somewhat old school in addition to being conservative AND his comments thus far are not harsh but relatively mild about leadership--also, hmmm, and he'll be there on cloture if it is not too difficult theoretically for the state to opt out; and, his former fellow Senator Hagel just got a nice plum from the administration; and, then there is Liebermann, who may well be putting on an act for the CT insurance base and donations, and then turn to any other deal the Dems offer; unless he plans to retire in 2012, I'd bet on his cloture vote.)  (2) Noone knows what has been said in PRIVATE meetings about reconciliation. We can all speculate what the fallback position really is there...but, noone knows. My guess is that it is highly likely that the difficult Senators have been informed of the
    reconciliation reality already as BTD recommends. That is my speculation.

    Spin (none / 0) (#79)
    by diogenes on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 07:57:44 PM EST
    You could pass health care reform tomorrow without a public option and come back with a public option if problems occur without it; it could even be the plank for the 2012 election so there's a real mandate.  So who is obstructing the passage of health care reform in 2009?