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Obama's Approach On The Health Bill

Glenn Greenwald on MSNBC this afternoon:

Good to have Glenn making some key arguments on this issue.

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    The betrayal of the Government on the (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 05:15:38 PM EST
    people of this country is almost unbearable.

    If the administration and congress are only going to consider corporate, they can get ALL their funding from them for their campaigns. The people need to contribute to the candidates who will knock these bought and paid for "what's in it for me" congressional folks out of a job.


    God the dude's brilliant (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 05:20:52 PM EST
    Glenn Greenwald speaks for me.

    Indeed ... (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 05:44:38 PM EST
    I especially like the way he slaps down the attempt to emotionalize the progressive critics of the bill.

    Parent
    I can't do it (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 09:30:03 PM EST
    People like me are very emotional about all of it.  We are either very much in need or highly exposed to people that are very much in need.  We are worn and torn and worried.  I'm grateful for his voice.

    Parent
    For the first time in almost 18 months, (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 10:49:48 PM EST
    I hope lots and lots of people watched MSNBC and caught this interview :)

    Parent
    On HCR. Maybe not on Afghanistan. (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 06:17:11 PM EST
    The minute I hit post (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 09:30:57 PM EST
    I had this flash of oculus asking me if my Afghanistan stance had changed :)

    Parent
    "The administation (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by Spamlet on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 05:47:02 PM EST
    of Rahm Emanuel": I heart Greenwald.

    Ultimate Guilt Trip: Prez to Gibson abc (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 07:26:29 PM EST
    "Anybody who says that they are concerned about deficit, concerned about debt, concerned about loading up taxes on future generations, you have to be supportive of this health care bill because if we don't do this, nobody argues with the fact that health care costs are going to consume the entire federal budget," the president said.

    What on earth?  Does he think he can fool all of the people all of the time?  

    from abcnews.com - linked at realclearpolitics


    Parent

    ROTFLMAO! (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 09:27:53 PM EST
    that one really takes the cake. Maybe we need reruns of teh scotty show starring Obama.

    Parent
    GG: lib arguments are more 'substantive' (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Ellie on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 06:31:38 PM EST
    ... and love how he lays them out, one at a time.

    I hate this onerous CW cr@p reducing Liberal objections to pettiness about Joe fricken Lieberman.

    30 years of Republican crocodile tears (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by esmense on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 07:17:33 PM EST
    over, and fear mongering aimed at, small business -- indulged in as a cover for policies meant to serve their gigantic corporate clients -- couldn't convince me that Dems didn't understand the realities of the private sector and the interests and values of those Americans who make their living in it. Most especially, that they didn't understand the constant state of economic risk in which most of those Americans, employee and employer alike, live. But a few months of this pathetic debate has made it abundantly clear that they really haven't a clue.

    If the beltway boys think objections to "reform" as it is currently being presented will only come from the "whiney," easily (by them) dismissed "Left" they are in for a big shock. Wait 'til independent and moderate voters find out what's been done to them. It is not "just" the "far left" that is getting screwed here -- it's everyone who doesn't work in the public sector and get their paychecks and health coverage paid for by the taxpayer. Public sector employees, unlike private sector employees and employers, won't see much change and what change they do see may be an improvement.

    But if you are a small business person responsible for your own and perhaps others' health care coverage, a freelancer or one of the large and rapidly growing number of contract employees, what are you being offered? Only the demand that, under threat, you turn your books over to the government, humiliate yourself before bureaucrats, and beg for a subsidy.

    These are the people most affected by the failures of the current system -- people who reform, done right, could have put into the Democratic camp for a long time to come.

    But perhaps the Dems think they can afford to write them off?

    So, how about all those people who work for large private sector employers who are currently able to offer decent coverage? Can the Dems write them off too? Incentives in this plan mean those workers will likely, over time, see the value and amount of coverage their employers provide decrease.

    Will those workers really agree with the beltway consensus that begging for subsidies to obtain coverage that is otherwise unobtainable is preferable to a competitive, well-regulated market that provides easily affordable coverage options? Or, a "socialized" system in which everyone contributes to financing quality care for all?

    That appears to be what the Dems are betting on. But I think they'll find it is the worst bet they ever made.

    Obama's never cared about the specifics (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 07:47:14 PM EST
    of any health care bill.  He just wants something passed, anything passed, so that he can claim he reformed the health care system of America.  He doesn't care if it does anything for anyone because, as usual, it's all about his image and nothing substantive.  

    He's spent his life being ''The Candidate" and is continuing to play that role as "The President".  It's ALL about his image.  There's no there, there.  Just an empty suit, standing for nothing.  

    Jay Cost on the Guilded Age (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 08:08:02 PM EST
    Cost has written a stinging piece on the Senate healthcare bill & Admin position over at realclear politics.  

    On the individual mandates designed to lower premiums, taxes to coerce individuals into buying insurance and the absence of any public option or medicaid buy-in, Cost states that the Senate bill will make purchase of insurance from private companies a "condition of citizenship" and the revenues from the tax ultimately wind up in the insurance companies' hands.

    On the Senate's capitulation on a public option:

         "And now, there is a push to get the bill passed before Christmas, not because that's best for the country - but because the startlingly irresponsible 44th President correctly intuits that health care is pushing his numbers down, and he wants to move on to talk about jobs."

    Cost calls the opposition to the Senate bill the "broadest political coalition I have seen in my lifetime", points out the public's strong opposition to the Senate bill and call the bill "... one of the biggest giveaways to corporate interests in the nation's history."

    Cost goes on to point out that by intending to pay for the "plan" by cutting $1/2 trillion from Medicare, the Dems are betraying the party's historic commitment to providing a public option/safetynet for seniors.

    Cost concludes by stating that the Dems are deluding themselves by "...grossly underestimating the wisdom of the American people." He predicts massive midterm losses and raises the same point Anne did here yesterday -- that if the Senate bill passes, the Repubs will have a field day using the bill and public opposition to it to gain votes.


    Given how he's dealt with health care (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by esmense on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 09:31:02 PM EST
    I expect his jobs solution will be a lower minimum wage.

    Parent
    Jay Cost (none / 0) (#13)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 09:03:28 PM EST
    contradicts himself here:

    Link

    The public option was an overreach. The White House's erroneous belief that it could get it through the legislature - or at least that it could let four out of five congressional committees push it - was a misinterpretation of last year's election results.

    The public option was an overreach (my link), but the bill without it is perverse (today's post).  Interesting

    Parent

    How will democrats justify (none / 0) (#18)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 09:48:50 PM EST
    Voting for this monstrosity?  And on Christmas Eve or Christmas day, no less, voting on a bill that will screw all of us?  How can they look at themselves in the mirror on Christmas and do that?!  

    Parent
    In other words, corporate giveaways are fine (none / 0) (#20)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 10:15:23 PM EST
    As long as they're in Medicare Advantage.

    Parent
    I could not disagree with this more... (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 10:49:59 PM EST
    The idea that this bill does more harm than good is substantively wrong. Greenwald is looking at what the bill lost rather than what it gives us, and there are excellent reasons to pass the bill in its current form. Krugman is a notable supporter, and I trust him more on domestic policy than Greenwald.

    You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you almost have to look at this bill the same way you would look at a recipe: if you're trying to bake a chocolate cake, and you take away the flour, the eggs, and the butter, you can still make the argument that the sugar and chocolate you still have are tasty enough - but you can't make the cake if that's all you have.

    Greenwald also doesn't understand that legislation passes based on who and what arguments have genuine power behind them. And if you don't have power, then you have to buy off those who do. It's unfortunate that we had to buy off the pharmaceutical lobby, but they held their fire.

    I think Glenn understands quite well who has the power. And I think he understands who has been bought; it isn't the pharmaceutical lobby that has been bought off, but the politicians who have been bought so as to make sure the pharmaceutical lobby gets what it paid for.

    There is an alternative to buying off those with power, and that's getting your own power. And sorry but politicians do not have it. When progressives are flooding the airwaves and townhalls and pushing memes like right wingers have done for decades, then we'll have power. Until then, sad to say it, but our side is doing little else than begging paid Congressional staffers to care about us.

    Until people start fighting for policy and not personality, or thinking they can serve their own personal power goals via activism, and until it is possible to break through the wall the media has erected against any message it does not want to to include in the conversation, it won't matter how hard we try to flood the airwaves.  

    Like I've said elsewhere, this bill is NOT reform. I'm not an apologist for the lost opportunity here. This bill needs to be thought of as a health insurance assistance bill and nothing more. We will need another push for real reform, and that is deeply disappointing. However, this bill will help millions of people and save tens or hundreds of thousands of lives. It will need to be revisited because it's leaving an unsustainable system intact, but we at least have a chance to end what is currently a moral tragedy.

    I think it remains to be seen how many millions of people will be helped by a bill that does little but force them to buy insurance; as Glenn so rightly points out in his post today, "covering" people with insurance is not the same as making sure they have access to care.  The moral tragedy is not that millions do not have insurance, but that millions are prevented from accessing care by the barrier that insurance artificially places between individuals and providers of care.

    And hopefully, if we're lucky, all these people who have been screaming for the public option and single payer will remain engaged and help create a public consensus for real healthcare reform.

    "Screaming for the public option and single payer?"  That's a telling characterization, I think.  What would be better?  A polite, "please, sir, may I have another?"  I realize that "screaming" does not fit the civil and seemly standard Obama wants to set, but not making noise has never resulted in the kind of change we need to make happen here.

    I also disagree with Greenwald on another point. Passing this bill, flaws and all, will send a message that we can actually pass massive healthcare bills. If we kill it, then healthcare reform becomes radioactive and it's 1994 all over again. Does anyone honestly believe that a failed legislative effort is going to improve in 2010?

    I have to disagree.  Horrid legislation is horrid legislation, and all passing it does is prove we had neither the courage of our convictions nor the stamina to fight til the last dog died; no one is going to thank Democrats for passing bad legislation.

    It's become clearer in recent days that what is on the table is exactly what Obama wanted all along; Congress can either stand up to him and speak for the people, send a clear message that they are not going to roll the people for the benefit of the corporate interests, and at the same time send a message that if Obama thinks he is going to do to Social Security and Medicare what he is doing to health care, he needs to think again - or they can roll over and pave the way for more of what we're seeing now.

    I don't have a lot of confidence that the Congress will do the right thing, and that scares me a lot more than "just" a bad health care bill.

    Amen (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:03:49 PM EST
    at the same time send a message that if Obama thinks he is going to do to Social Security and Medicare what he is doing to health care, he needs to think again - or they can roll over and pave the way for more of what we're seeing now.

    Parent
    I'm going to just cover one point (none / 0) (#26)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:08:03 PM EST
    Most of what I can say in disagreement would merely be rehashing what I've already written. However, I must take issue with two points, as they mischaracterize what I'm saying:

    You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think you almost have to look at this bill the same way you would look at a recipe: if you're trying to bake a chocolate cake, and you take away the flour, the eggs, and the butter, you can still make the argument that the sugar and chocolate you still have are tasty enough - but you can't make the cake if that's all you have.

    I'm agreeing that this isn't a reform bill. It's health insurance assistance. It's not cake, it's some kind of syrupy chocolate pudding.

    So no matter what title they put on the bill, I'm agreeing with you and making the case that reform failed. That point, however, is not incompatible with my point, which is that the bill as-is will help people in the medium term.

    "Screaming for the public option and single payer?"  That's a telling characterization, I think.  What would be better?  A polite, "please, sir, may I have another?"  I realize that "screaming" does not fit the civil and seemly standard Obama wants to set, but not making noise has never resulted in the kind of change we need to make happen here.

    If you think that's a "telling characterization", then you are interpreting my words 180 degrees backwards. I'm not Obama, and I don't care about civil discourse. In fact I think the discourse on our side needs to get uncivil if it's going to survive. We play polite eggheads while they shout us down, like we're trapped in Hannity and Colmes.

    My objection to the "kill the bill" crowd on the left is that they're not seeing the good parts of the Senate bill, of which there are many. It makes for an acceptable health insurance assistance bill (NOT a reform bill). And where I agree with the "kill the bill" crowd is that we should be deeply disappointed that we're not getting actual reform, and that we need to organize around passing a real bill with a better Senate and a White House that takes progressives seriously. (Whether it's all the same politicians or new ones, what matters is that they see people organizing around single payer as a genuine source of power.)

    I also think the House bill MUST NOT be allowed to get trampled, and that House Progressives need to stand up and flex their muscles. They actually have leverage, if Obama wants his bill before his SOTU speech. I wonder if they realize that?

    Parent

    And not to belabor the issue, (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Anne on Thu Dec 17, 2009 at 07:20:11 AM EST
    but while I recognize that there may be some good in this bill-which-is-not-a-bill-yet, I think there is still enough bad in it that it may not be worth it; if the goal is now to assist, then let's do that, but what they're pretending here is that they are reforming the system.  And they are doing what Bush did a lot of: simply saying something is so and expecting that if they say it enough, it will be so, even if anyone with two eyes, two ears and a reasonably functional brain is - or should be - aware that it is not, and not likely to ever be.

    Before we can accomplish the kinds of change in the health system that will do the things people want, we need to do a better job of identifying where the focus needs to be.  And we need to educate people to the reality that having insurance is not the same as having care - and those who need the most educating seem to be members of Congress, unfortunately.

    It's been clear to me that if the goal of reform was to broaden access to care and make it affordable for everyone, there were too many people left out of the discussion, and the wrong people were tasked with coming up with a plan; Max Baucus was not ever going to be looking out for us.

    Barack Obama is the one who anointed Baucus to be the lead planner, which should tell you pretty much what we need to know about Obama's commitment to improving the health care system for us.

    Parent

    Okay I lied :) (none / 0) (#27)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:08:25 PM EST
    I covered two points. Maybe more. :)

    Parent
    Greenwald is kind of a johnny-come-lately (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 06:16:14 PM EST
    re HCR.  But he does his homework.  

    And a terrible hit for (none / 0) (#8)
    by Andy08 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 06:38:02 PM EST
    the middle class with the ABSURD EXCISE TAX!!  If this was that Pres. Obama's agenda as well then I am doubly furious about it.....
    I hate Baucus/Reid/Senate/Obama's (?) idea of asking "us"  blue collar/middle class to pay for this and us alone. I really do. Why??

    And  why not offering the health insurance our dear Rep&Sen. have? What, are those "cadillac plans" as well? I am sure then there is a provision in there that exempts them from being passed the tax since they probably pay no premiums anyway....

    Greenwald gets it wrong (none / 0) (#19)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 10:12:23 PM EST
    The idea that this bill does more harm than good is substantively wrong. Greenwald is looking at what the bill lost rather than what it gives us, and there are excellent reasons to pass the bill in its current form. Krugman is a notable supporter, and I trust him more on domestic policy than Greenwald.

    Greenwald also doesn't understand that legislation passes based on who and what arguments have genuine power behind them. And if you don't have power, then you have to buy off those who do. It's unfortunate that we had to buy off the pharmaceutical lobby, but they held their fire.

    There is an alternative to buying off those with power, and that's getting your own power. And sorry but politicians do not have it. When progressives are flooding the airwaves and townhalls and pushing memes like right wingers have done for decades, then we'll have power. Until then, sad to say it, but our side is doing little else than begging paid Congressional staffers to care about us.

    Like I've said elsewhere, this bill is NOT reform. I'm not an apologist for the lost opportunity here. This bill needs to be thought of as a health insurance assistance bill and nothing more. We will need another push for real reform, and that is deeply disappointing. However, this bill will help millions of people and save tens or hundreds of thousands of lives. It will need to be revisited because it's leaving an unsustainable system intact, but we at least have a chance to end what is currently a moral tragedy.

    And hopefully, if we're lucky, all these people who have been screaming for the public option and single payer will remain engaged and help create a public consensus for real healthcare reform.

    I also disagree with Greenwald on another point. Passing this bill, flaws and all, will send a message that we can actually pass massive healthcare bills. If we kill it, then healthcare reform becomes radioactive and it's 1994 all over again. Does anyone honestly believe that a failed legislative effort is going to improve in 2010?

    Actually Greenwald did not argue (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 10:40:46 PM EST
    the substantive points. He argued that the opposition to the bill is BASED on substantive points, not emotion, as the Village is insisting.

    Now, when you address the substantive points made by the opponents, let me know and we can discuss it.

    Parent

    Listen around 2:28 (none / 0) (#31)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:22:22 PM EST
    He's making substantive arguments against the bill, though using a "some say" framing. He clearly believes what he's saying and that he's not simply presenting an argument made by others.

    Though I agree with his point that the arguments against the bill are substantive, not based on emotion. The Village is indeed wrong on that point. There is a substantive debate to be had over mandates and over the political wisdom (or lack thereof) of passing a mandate without a public option, and dismissing that as "liberals are crying in their lattes" is deeply insulting.

    BTW I've addressed the substantive points made by opponents in several comments on this site. I've argued for why mandates are good policy for months, and as recently as today. I realize you can't keep up with every commenter on this site, of course.

    Parent

    Glenn;s a good friend of mine (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:27:11 PM EST
    I can assure you that he has no developed opinions on the proposal as of yet.

    Parent
    I will take your word for it, then (none / 0) (#34)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:28:13 PM EST
    But he sure sounded like it on the TV. :)

    Parent
    Krugman is a grudging supporter (none / 0) (#24)
    by FreakyBeaky on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 10:59:20 PM EST
    And he's just about had it.  

    Parent
    I'm with Krugman on the grudging (none / 0) (#28)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:13:21 PM EST
    It's not reform, it's a mess, but it will help people. And if history is any guide, passing a bill will help pass better bills. Failing to pass a bill will lead to worse bills or no bills for another decade or so.

    So count me as a grudging supporter. And I refuse to call it "reform". Leaving our system almost completely mostly intact is not reform. When we have a government program for everyone, a gutted and whipped private insurance industry, a decoupling of insurance and employment, or any combination of those, then we can call it reform.

    Parent

    Quite reasonable <n/t> (none / 0) (#29)
    by FreakyBeaky on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:16:29 PM EST
    Let's wait for the final version (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:18:05 PM EST
    Good call (none / 0) (#32)
    by s5 on Wed Dec 16, 2009 at 11:24:11 PM EST
    I'm still wondering what, if anything, Grijalva plans to do if the Senate bill gets worse.

    Parent
    With the excise tax in? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Andy08 on Thu Dec 17, 2009 at 08:02:55 AM EST
    As long as they keep that in it's a terribly unfair bill no matter what.

    Parent