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Why Obama Is Right (And Feingold Is Wrong) On Afghanistan

Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI), in most ways the exception that proves my rule about "pols are pols," wrote an October 24, 2008 Op-Ed in the CSM questioning the wisdom of sending more troops to Afghanistan. Feingold wrote:

Washington policymakers and others are increasingly recognizing that we need to return our attention to Afghanistan and the threat of Al Qaeda. While the administration has pursued a misguided war in Iraq, the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan, Al Qaeda has established a stronghold across the border in Pakistan, and Al Qaeda affiliates have gained strength around the world. But few people seem willing to ask whether the main solution that's being talked about– sending more troops to Afghanistan – will actually work.

Feingold wrongly presumed that "sending more troops" is "the main solution" when in fact it is only a part of the initiatives needed to provide a solution. More discussion on the flip

Feingold wrote:

For far too long, we have been fighting in Afghanistan with too few troops. It has been an "economy of force" campaign, as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff put it. But we can't just assume that additional troops will undo the damage caused by years of neglect.

Indeed, most of us agree that the Iraq Debacle did, perhaps irreparable, damage to our efforts in Afghanistan. And Feingold was correct to ask:

After seven years of war, will more troops help us achieve our strategic goals in Afghanistan? How many troops would be needed and for how long? Is there a danger that a heavier military footprint will further alienate the population, and, if so, what are the alternatives? And – with the lessons of Iraq in mind – will this approach advance our top national security priority, namely defeating Al Qaeda?

I believe the answers to these questions are, respectively - (1) yes; (2) I do not know, but at least 30,000 and for at least a few years; (3) Yes, there is a danger that a heavier military footprint will alienate the population but there is a greater danger that the failure of the US to help provide security will also alienate the Afghan population and provide a safe haven to forces that will not only be a direct threat to the US (Al Qaida), but also will be extremely destabilizing to Pakistan, India and the entire region. The reality is that given the threats of severe instability and reforming of direct threats to the US and the region, there are no other short term alternatives. (4) There can be no doubt that this will help us in our struggle with terrorism, imo.

Feingold wrote:

We must target Al Qaeda aggressively, and we cannot allow Afghanistan to be used again as a launching pad for attacks on America. It is far from clear, however, that a larger military presence there would advance these goals.

This is not clear thinking imo. The lessons of Iraq tell us that providing military presence in a theatre where Al Qaida was NOT present did severe damage to our fight in Afghanistan and strengthened the terrorist cause against the US.

But the opposite would be true of our efforts in Afghanistan. We would be bringing to bear military pressure on the terrorist organizations that did attack us and support attacks upon us. It would help stabilize the region and bring needed security to the population. It would provide evidence of our commitment to the region.

In the end, Feingold, it seems to me, misstated the strategy that will be employed in the region:

Regardless of whether we send more troops, we need to understand that, as in Iraq, there is ultimately no military solution to Afghanistan's problems. Unless we push for diplomacy and a regional approach, work to root out corruption, stamp out the country's narcotics trade, and step up development and reconstruction efforts, Afghanistan will probably continue its downward trajectory.

The Obama Administration is already engaged in these actions. In particular, Richard Holbrooke is an energetic and respected diplomat who has been on the job from day one. I am confident that the Obama Administration will take a multifaceted approach to addressing the problems in the region.

In short, the increase in military power in the region is an important and necessary, but not exclusive, part of the the aggressive and proactive strategy the Obama Administration will employ in the region.

Feingold wrote:

In the long run, regional diplomacy, government reforms, and infrastructure development may be more important to Afghanistan's success – and to our own national security – than committing additional troops.

The decision to go to war in Afghanistan was the right one, but after years of misplaced priorities and muddling through, we have to do some hard thinking before asking our military to create the stability and security that are badly needed there.

To say that some non-military initiatives are as important, or even more important, than the military initiative is not an answer for whether a military initiative is also important and necessary. I believe it clearly is and I think Feingold did not offer a compelling argument for why it is not.

Speaking for me only

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    This also (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by AlkalineDave on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:19:25 PM EST
    signals to Russia our willingness to work in the area.  With the possibility of losing Manas AFB in Kyrgyzstan, it's becoming apparent that to sustain logistics we must have Russian complicity.  In the past, (because of the former President's policy) Russia has questioned our commitment to the region.  More troops send a very strong message not only to Russia but to NATO and the rest of the world of our commitment to Afghanistan.  Very thoughtful analysis BTD.

    Russia Is Our Premier Competitor (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by tokin librul on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:06:15 PM EST
    in the trans-Caspian. The region is ringed by former Soviet 'Stans,

    The US is not in Afghanistan because of the Afghan people, to bring them freedom or any such nonsense. The US is in Afghanistan because it is the weakest State in the region from which US can extend interest into the Caspian basin, wherein lies the last big petroleum and mineral deposits in easy-to-get-to, cheaply accessible places.

    That's the reason the Busheviks went into Iraq, too. Look at a map from the Black Sea to the Khyber pass. Think of "the Grand Chessboard."

    Parent

    Is this a result (none / 0) (#109)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 10:45:02 PM EST
    of Israel's culpability in 9-11? I mean if were going to use conspiracy theories might as well go all out.  

    Look Iraq I can buy as a PNAC target and a case of neo-colonialism, however when you look at the Taliban's harboring and alliance with Al Queda it becomes a bit hard to buy that it wasn't the cause of the US invasion.

    Parent

    There is a difference between 'conspiracy' (none / 0) (#138)
    by tokin librul on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:11:14 PM EST
    which is silent and secretive, and 'strategy,' which is up-front and obvious.

    I have no idea whether Israel is complicit in the 9/11 events. I do have an idea that Bush went into Iraq at least in part at Israel's behest, to punish Saddam for his support of the Palestinians, but mainly to kill him for having launched his pathetic little SCUDs at Israel a decade earlier...

    In my opinion, there have ALWAYS been four main reasons for the ICORP (Invasion, Conquest, Occupartion, rape & Pillage) of Iraq and not in any particular order: 1) to render Iraq impotent in relation to Israel, 2) to overthrow Saddam (which was  not the same thing as #1), 3) to secure the energy resources (not to 'own' them, but to control them), and 4) to provide a land-base for the extension of USer influence throughout the region (everything between the Bosporus and the Khyber Pass is under the bomb-sights of fast, deadly USer tactical aircraft based in northern Iraq, in the Kurd region).

    Parent

    Google "Susan Lindauer" (none / 0) (#151)
    by tokin librul on Thu Mar 05, 2009 at 10:43:49 AM EST
    Mossad knew every detail.

    Parent
    Why not let the local power (none / 0) (#8)
    by Fabian on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:31:21 PM EST
    Russia, do some heavy lifting there?

    I'd be looking for a way to shift the burden.  Why are we doing all the work?

    Parent

    Holbrooke (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:35:19 PM EST
    is working.

    Parent
    BTD, I have a lot of respect for you, but (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 07:41:08 PM EST
    I fear history will prove you dead wrong on this military action in Afghanistan. When, that probable outcome manifests itself, you will bear some responsibility for supporting the policy.

    Generally speaking, the absence of overwhelming skepticism about the Afghanistan surge is dumbfounding, especially in view of the unspeakable debacle in Iraq.

    There seems to be a national pathology, whereby our leadership drags the country from one wrong-headed war to the next - in a perpetual quest for a war that turns out 'right' and somehow remedies the perceived humiliation of the loss in Vietnam.

    To be clear, Afghanistan isn't Obama's Vietnam; it is his version of yet another ineffectual, disastrous anti-dote to Vietnam. How sad that Obama's campaign rhetoric was so contemptuous of the generation that was obligated to fight that war.

    Parent

    very true and (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by AlkalineDave on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:38:19 PM EST
    with the President's administration cooling on certain issues (radar located in NATO countries that could track planes across Russia and the missile defense in Poland issue), we may shift into a position where we could count (or ask even) on that kind of help.  President Obama has proven quite the fox on this issue compared to President Bush being a hedgehog on his handling.

    Parent
    Russia will not be going into Afghanistan this (none / 0) (#87)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:40:11 PM EST
    soon after exiting Afghanistan. Russia also, at this point, has some leverage against the US, especially concerning supply routes to our soldiers. There is that bridge in Pakistan which was blown up, causing delays in any supplies from Pakistan.

    BushCo did not do much to relieve Russia of fears about US intentions in the region; will take some time and actual actions regain that trust.

    For both parties, it is again trust but verify.

    Parent

    It's tons cheaper (none / 0) (#112)
    by Fabian on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:44:57 AM EST
    for Russia to send anything into Afghanistan.  Plus they have even more reasons than we do to want that area stable.

    Parent
    It depends on the biggest picture of all, no? (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:41:39 PM EST
    The empire is wrong and we can't afford it; Ron Paul -- a stopped clock -- is right on that.

    So, if Afghanistan is part of getting us out of the imperial trap, I'd be for it, but I don't see that happening.

    I've got no confidence that the Village understands what AQ is, and I'm not even sure these enemies exist in the forms we are told that they do; why would I be?

    And it seems that every time, every time, the blowback happens and the cure turns out worse than the disease.

    People are right to be skeptical of this new surge, and ask for answers.

    Also, what we refer to as Taliban is actually many (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 06:09:30 PM EST
    different types of insurgents.

    The CIA guy on Charlie Rose said lots of the fighters in Pakistan are "punks with guns" paid $8/day by some groups which we lump together as Taliban, that we would do well to pay them $8.50 or $9/day and get them out of the fighting business. He said the Northern Front won against the Taliban by buying out local war lords, etc., and getting them to come over to the NF side. That in Afghanistan, that is considered how one fights wars, with as few shots fired as possible, but lots of negotiating and bargaining.

    Aha! Charlie Rose has video up now of the Af/video Pak discussion.

    Dissenter, any impressions/experience with this?

    Parent

    Paul is right (none / 0) (#153)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 09, 2009 at 02:41:44 PM EST
    But Chalmers Johnson says it better and in more detail.

    Also, funny how no one other than the "nut" Paul was allowed to use the word neocon during ANY of either parties primary debates.

    Parent

    When will we know we have won? (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Cream City on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:53:34 PM EST
    How will we know?  Etc.  Standard questions from a previous war in Asia, when we didn't address those questions and were in a quagmire for decades. . . .

    It is not clear to me from what I have read.   Poppy-stopping or not?  Replacing leadership or not?  (Oh, oh, more deja vu all over again.)

    Maybe we could just agree on a body count of American corpses now -- a level at which the American public finally will start marching in the streets -- and get out when we get to that number.  

    I would like (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by Steve M on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:27:52 PM EST
    a speech on where we're going in Afghanistan, with a defined mission statement and some benchmarks by which we and the administration can judge if the mission is being accomplished.  You know, some of the things that the Dems kept demanding from Bush all those years.

    I know people are more focused on the economic crisis, but this choice affects a lot of lives, and we shouldn't just be left wondering.

    And may I say, I am tired of hearing from folks that this is simply what Obama promised during the campaign.  Of course he promised it.  There wasn't any real discussion about it then, from the right or the left, and there's no time like the present.

    Parent

    Exactly. Thank you for putting it (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Cream City on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:01:18 PM EST
    so well, so much better, as usual.

    I have this great sense of unease that I have been here before. . . .

    Parent

    Evidentially (none / 0) (#77)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:35:52 PM EST
    What you are asking for is in the works. I believe that it is not an empty promise from this administration. My understanding is that the military demanded the troops and Obama partially acquiesced because the Afghanistan plan is being developed now.

    No doubt a speech will follow once there is a plan.

    Parent

    As you probably guessed, I would (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:45:21 PM EST
    prefer the speech preceed the re-missioning.  

    Parent
    April 7, 1965 (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ben Masel on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 08:58:05 PM EST
    "Why must we take this painful road?

    Why must this Nation hazard its ease, and its interest, and its power for the sake of a people so far away?

    We fight because we must fight if we are to live in a world where every country can shape its own destiny. And only in such a world will our own freedom be finally secure.

    This kind of world will never be built by bombs or bullets. Yet the infirmities of man are such that force must often precede reason, and the waste of war, the works of peace.

    We wish that this were not so. But we must deal with the world as it is, if it is ever to be as we wish.
    The world as it is in Asia is not a serene or peaceful place."

    President Lyndon Johnson

    Parent

    Well good (none / 0) (#88)
    by Steve M on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:40:35 PM EST
    I have heard solid arguments both for and against.  I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt as long as I can hear something that computes to me, and more importantly, at least gives me the sense that this mission has been fully thought through based upon first principles.

    During the campaign, I was frustrated with people who blithely accepted the notion of extending the war in Afghanistan, not because I knew it was bad policy but simply because I felt it was time to get past this simplistic "Iraq was the bad war, Afghanistan is the good war" mentality and actually talk about it.  Or, to put it in even more cynical terms, Afghanistan shouldn't be the marker by which liberals get to signify that they're not just anti-war in general.

    By the way, I wasn't exactly pro-Iraq war, but I gave the benefit of the doubt on that one too.  So I'm open to the notion that I'm simply a big ol' sucker.

    Parent

    Steve M, you've articulated this insight (none / 0) (#144)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:28:43 PM EST
    really well:
    Afghanistan shouldn't be the marker by which liberals get to signify that they're not just anti-war in general.

    You don't indicate where you stand, but I have no problem with being "anti-war in general". I wish more progressives would 'man-up' and advocate the common sense premise that war is a primitive option to be avoided at all costs.

    Parent

    I don't anticipate marching in the (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:01:47 PM EST
    streets here w/o a draft.

    Parent
    That was a significant trigger (none / 0) (#68)
    by Cream City on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:14:58 PM EST
    for escalation of the war at home.

    But the powder already was burning before that, and the war at home had begun.  Tracking the death rate year by year and the level of protest is informative.

    Parent

    Also, that means decades of war (none / 0) (#69)
    by Cream City on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:17:39 PM EST
    for us in Afghanistan, if it would not end until we begin the draft again.

    The first American military death in Vietnam was in . . . 1945.  It was another quarter of a century of troops there, at least some troops, until the draft.

    Babies born today would be drafted for Afghanistan.

    Parent

    University of Michigan (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:09:10 PM EST
    library exhibit on successes and failures of activism in the '60s:

    Michian Today

    Parent

    Thanks, much -- I may use that (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Cream City on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 08:52:01 PM EST
    on links for students to peruse when we get to that period.  I have others re Berkeley, Madtown -- and Kent State, an amazing and sad site put together by survivors of the May Massacre and by current students who still care.  

    It is so hard to teach that time to students today, as they have had their heads filled with so much nonsense about it.  The high school history texts are horrible.  So, many of them often appreciate getting a greater sense of why us old folks worry when we see similarities.  

    I finally figured out, btw, to teach the period year by year by year, with PowerPoints showing the death toll year by year by year, for decades.  It was an odd research project, complicated by contradictory data from our gummint even today.  But it really helps to get across how incrementally we can be drawn into a major commitment of troops and simply lose count.

    Parent

    There is a museum in Saigon (now (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 08:57:17 PM EST
    Ho Chi Minh City)giving the statistics of the Vietnam War from the side of the victors.  A chart shows how many tanks, airplanes, ships, boats, soldiers, etc. each side had.  We should have won!  But we didn't.

    Parent
    When it comes to war.... (none / 0) (#132)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:39:15 AM EST
    there is no advantage like the home field advantage.  All the arms in the world won't change that....the Russians had the Afghans outgunned too.

    Parent
    that didn't keep sherman from destroying (none / 0) (#141)
    by cpinva on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:29:35 PM EST
    there is no advantage like the home field advantage.

    everything in his path, on his march to the sea. he faced an organized (though sometimes ineptly led) army, and a hostile civilian population. his lines of supply were intentionally cut, and his troops lived off the land, leaving a burnt out swath in their wake. sherman crushed every bit of resistance in his way, and denied the enemy the means to commit war.

    sherman invented the concept of "total war", used by the allies in wwII, to destroy nazi germany and imperial japan.

    fast forward to korea, vietnam, iraq and afghanistan. "total war" was not employed, allowing the enemy the means to continue prosecuting hostilities. never mind the reasons, this is the heart of the matter; in the absence of a "total war" approach, total victory is nearly impossible, regardless of the resources available to you.

    powell understood that in kuwait, thus his insistence that massive amounts of troops and arms be brought to bear against saddam, all at once, not piecemeal.

    it's a lesson we have to re-learn constantly.


    Parent

    Sen. Feingold's Tuesday statement (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:30:03 PM EST
    re President's announcement auth. additional U.S. military to Afghanistan:

    Sen. Feingold via Rawstory

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 06:02:33 PM EST
    More demands that we articulate our mission in Afghanistan is a good thing.

    Parent
    Count me sending kudos to questioning Feingold (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 08:00:55 PM EST
    Feingold doesn't need to sell his notions.  He isn't sending anyone into harm's way, but Obama is and when you have stuff like this going on

    Karzai is lobbying for a kinder and gentler U.S. presence. That means fewer aerial bombings, house searches and arrests. More use of Afghan troops. And more emphasis on development. Gen. Petraeus, in contrast, wants a surge in allied military support to backstop U.S. troops as they "relentlessly and tenaciously" drive out, kill or capture insurgents, "clear and hold" turf, and build ties to local leaders.

    Are Obama and Karzai on a collision course? It's too early to say. Obama has rightly told his staff to review the overall Afghan strategy in the coming months. A good plan would reconcile differences by building the government and economy, as it targets insurgents. Moreover, U.S. and allied force must be applied judiciously.

    But American frustration is growing. Karzai knows it. And many Afghans share that frustration as they await the Aug. 20 presidential election, in which Karzai hopes to win a second five-year term.

    Between now and then, Karzai and his international backers need to find a common language to describe just where the country is, where it must go, and what each partner must do to move it forward. In Munich, the major players seemed to be talking past one another.

    Link

    Why does this sound like a fresh American administration coming in and knowing they haven't killed enough innocent children yet to have to worry about whether or not they are suffering from some Cowboyitis?

    Thank you for your thoughts. (none / 0) (#102)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 08:27:38 PM EST
    Based on your comments the past few days I thought you might not welcome questions such as Sen. Feingold's.

    Parent
    I have learned a few things since 9/11 (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 08:37:38 PM EST
    and this military marriage thing.  One of them is that the worst thing that can happen to our democracy is a silent citizenship during times of war and SH*T, it's mighty silent out there right now.  I've learned the haaaaard way that someone must be asking hard questions the whole time we are making us some war.  It isn't something that we can ever Just Do when we get up in the morning because it's called for.  Not one morning ought to ever go by without accountability for why and how, and strategy, and what they like to call collateral damage!

    Parent
    Absolutely (none / 0) (#1)
    by AlkalineDave on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:12:25 PM EST
    The military is not focused on this as a serge per se.  Yes, we definitely need non-military initiatives, but it overburdens the military when we expect them to do it.  President Obama's focus shift on Afghanistan is timely and more than just "throwing more troops" at the problem.

    Has Senator Feingold spoken out (none / 0) (#2)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:14:23 PM EST
    since yesterday's written announcement the President auth. sending more troops to Afghanistan?  Sen. Feingold's op ed is dated October 24, 2008.

    I read Sen. Feingold's op ed as urging caution and studying of the options before committing additional U.S. military to Afghanistan.  Not sure that happened, which is troubling.  Holbrooke just returned from the region to D.C. and the President is in Phoenix.    

    I edited the post (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:19:10 PM EST
    to clarify that Feingold wrote this Op Ed in October 2008.

    Parent
    I should also note (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:22:04 PM EST
    that I spotted this article in a David Mizner dkos diary.

    Parent
    No he has not (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:15:37 PM EST
    But the positions have not changed.

    Parent
    I agree that (none / 0) (#7)
    by JThomas on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:23:36 PM EST
    we need to at least try not to let the situation deteriorate any further while Holbrooke,Secretary Clinton,President Obama,and Secretary Gates conduct their 60 day review of the current situation and sending long-requested additional troops is probably prudent.

    The spring offensives will begin soon in the mountains and we cannot leave our mountain bases undermanned or risk having them overrun like what happened last fall.

    Parent

    Juan Cole: (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:43:57 PM EST
    link

    He questions the re-missioned" U.S. military use to eradicate poppy fields in Afghanistan.  

    Isn't the reason we are in Afghanistan to keep the Taliban from harbouring al Quaida?  And so we can capture al Quaida forces located there?

    I should read the link (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:50:53 PM EST
    But the idea that the "remissioning" is to destroy poppy fields seem utterly inaccurate to me.

    Parent
    I read the link (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:12:32 PM EST
    and think you misstate what Cole said:

    Obama Orders 17,000 US Troops to Afghanistan

    President Barack Obama has decided to send 17,000 additional troops to Afghanistan, on the grounds that "the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan demands urgent attention". Civilian deaths from political violence increased about 40% in 2008 over 2007, reaching over 2000. They will be sent to the Pushtun south and east of the country, where guerrilla fighting is expected to pick up with the advent of warm weather. The BBC says, "The deployment will be made up of 8,000 marines, and 4,000 army soldiers, plus another 5,000 support staff." The Marines will begin arriving in May.

    What we saw in Iraq was that the sheer number of troops did not matter so much as how they are deployed and for what purpose. I hope that these troops are used well.

    McClatchy reports that the new troops will mainly be sent to Helmand Province, a major poppy-producing areas, and will have poppy eradication as a major mission. If this report is true, it is very troubling. . .

    I agree with Cole. Including his skepticism of the claim.

    Parent

    I just read another article--NYT-- (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:18:24 PM EST
    about N.A.T.O and eradicating those poppy fields, which fund Taliban, per N.A.T.O.  

    Any response to my second paragraph above?

    Parent

    My response is (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:21:06 PM EST
    that instead of eradicating the poppy fields, what is needed is to eradicate Taliban control of the area and thus access to funds from it.

    I imagine THAT is the real military objective in that region.

    Parent

    That would be a novel approach (none / 0) (#39)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:24:10 PM EST
    for the US to take, would it not?
    The US has decided to fight the plants in country after country, in the war on drugs.

    Parent
    War on Terrorism (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:31:09 PM EST
    vs. the War on Drugs.

    Parent
    We understand each other; however, (none / 0) (#48)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:33:39 PM EST
    I find your scenario implausible.
    The notion that the US would use troops to deny the Taliban access to areas where opium is grown, without also trying to eliminate the crop itself, is hard for me to believe.

    Parent
    More than one article states (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:36:45 PM EST
    Karzai's brother is a heavyweight in the heroin market.  

    Parent
    Okay, so we have Obama and Biden (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:22:34 AM EST
    chapped and fried because they say Karzai's administration is so "corrupt", (but Bush's wasn't really).  And now I come to know that Karzai's bro is a heroin heavy weight.  Seems more and more like poppy anger could be a factor here with this administration.

    Parent
    The troops can't help it if (none / 0) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:18:29 AM EST
    the plants are killed in the process.  That's collateral damage though :)

    Parent
    NYT (Wed.) re (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:09:09 AM EST
    deaths in Afghanistan, causes, and "collateral damage."

    NYT

    Parent

    I read this, I acknowledge the stats, (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:13:55 AM EST
    and I struggle EVEN HARDER to understand how Obama got off on the wrong foot in responding to Karzai's concerns about civilian deaths. And the way we are going after the Taliban's money stream?  Isn't there a way to go about this that promotes less DEATH all the way around?  What have we attempted to do here cuz it seems to me after reading all morning that there are farmers growing stuff to stay alive and there are Taliban growing the poppies they once used to burn and kill for growing to fund their ventures now.  If the farmers only want a cash crop have we attempted offering them help and substitutes?  Wouldn't the Taliban growers start to stick out like sore thumbs then?  This strong arm violence crap sounds so familiar.....that was the methodology of the last huge failing dynamic duo that this dynamic duo was supposed to provide CHANGE from.  The more I read the more frustrated I become.  You know, Petraeus didn't help start the fire in Western Iraq that he ended up with in his lap.  He isn't a small fry in this fresh start up right now though.  He isn't the small time good cop to the idiot bad cops making all the wrong moves right out of the gate.  Who is going to save him from his strong arming self?  Snap out of it everyone!  European leaders aren't behind our strategy here.  Why?  Where are the voices that ought to be speaking out right now?

    Parent
    Exactly, MT: where is the protest from the left? (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:17:36 PM EST
    The left blogosphere has to push back NOW, or they will own the Afghanistan war in the same way the right wing and the mainstream punditocracy still own the Iraq war.

    Once the escalation is in full swing, questioning the President and the 'mission' will be effectively misconstrued as disloyal, unpatriotic, traitorous and "demoralizing to the troops".

    THIS BLOWS.

    Parent

    You seem to agree that stamping (none / 0) (#26)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:19:28 PM EST
    out the narcotics trade is a goal to pursue, right?
    Here's my proposal/question: Opium farmers rely on that trade for subsistence, but do the farmers themselves actually get much money out of it?
    Probably not, right?
    Is it possible to pay the farmers not to grow poppies? If you can do that, then you might get tolerance for efforts to eliminate poppy farms.


    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:20:05 PM EST
    I do not.

    The reverse.

    Parent

    Wes Clark's most recent (none / 0) (#12)
    by oldpro on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:44:01 PM EST
    comments?

    Latest I can find (re Afghanistan)are from last fall.

    He seems to have confidence in Obama's Defense team's ability to change strategy, make progress.  

    Huge problems and costs, though, since the Bush league screwed up Iraq AND NATO so now no one knows what 'success' in either country really is supposed to look like...much less, how we get there.

    Looks like we're on our own in both countries unless Holbrook/Hillary can pull off some miracle with our allies for support...financial, if not military.

    "the Iraq Debacle..." (none / 0) (#14)
    by desertswine on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 02:54:25 PM EST
    Yeah, well I hope in a couple of years that people aren't referring to the Afghan Conflict as "Obama's Debacle."

    I assume that would be everyone's hope (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:03:03 PM EST
    But that is hardly to the point of this discussion.

    Parent
    It may not be referred (none / 0) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:06:51 PM EST
    to as "Obama's Debacle", but in my view, it will be a debacle all same, even with another name.

    Parent
    Why do you believe so? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:09:08 PM EST
    Here is the real issue (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by dissenter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:38:03 PM EST
    As someone that has spent a year and half in Afghanistan trying to "fix" the country on the reconstruction side I will tell you that if this country gets any deeper into that swamp we had better be prepared to spend in excess of $1 trillion dollars.

    I will address a couple of posts above - The military will NOT eradicate poppy. In fact, they have been fighting the state dept over that issue for a few years. They refuse to do it. Eradication leads to assaults on our soldiers and reconstruction workers and it is counter-productive. You don't wipe out people's only livelihood until there is a replacement.

    If we are going to try and actually "save" Afghanistan, it will require massive amounts of money and reconstruction people like myself. Having said that, we must have security to do our jobs. Right now, nobody can travel anywhere outside Kabul and even that is getting dicey.

    So, not only do you have to have billions in funds to create jobs, develop agriculture, clean up the political mess in the country, address health care, law and order, legal disputes, corruption, etc - you will need massive security to carry out the mission.

    If you can't hold ground, you can't reconstruct anything.

    The military can't provide enough security. We don't have the troops to do it and they shouldn't be guarding reconstruction teams. They should be killing terrorists.  This means there must be a  huge injection of private security contractors. I know I'm not going back without better security. I've nearly lost my life 3 times.

    Problems Obama should be looking at first and foremost:

    1. Karzai has to go. Is the US willing to back a new horse and then hold leverage over them so the money can be accounted for? Right now almost everything we put into their coffers is stolen. Messing in their elections is problematic even when most Afghans hate Karzai.

    2. Is the US willing to spend a trillion to do this job because anyone that is looking to the UN, NATO or the EU for that funding is living in delusion land. They aren't going to pony up. In fact, they are going to pull their troops out of there. A good chunk of the EU is broke thanks to the the financial mess across the globe. Most EU citizens want out of Afghanistan.

    3. There are too many chiefs and not enough indians over there. We either take charge and own the mess or we don't go down that road. NATO isn't working. ISAF is a joke and it has no credibility with the Afghans.

    4. Is it right to spend a trillion on a country that refuses to give half its citizens even the most basic human rights?

    After watching the situation go from bad to worse, I have to say that I don't think this mess is fixable. I would leave in the special forces, drones, the CIA and a few other things and pull the plug.

    The truth is, we can't fix Afghanistan. The Iraq solution is no solution in Afghanistan. It is a totally different country.  I for one do not want one more of my tax dollars to go to any reconstruction unless we have total control over the money. That won't happen.

    I use to be someone that wanted to do whatever necessary to help the Afghans. After watching what has gone on over there, I have decided that the only real option is to kill bad guys and let those Afghans that have helped us immigrate to the US. Right now, they are all on kill lists for helping us. We owe them.

    For those that think we can ever control the frontier land, I say go over there. You will quickly decide we can't control anything and the best option is to get out.

    Afghanistan is truly the graveyard of empires. Nobody has ever pacified that country and we are naive if we think we are going to.

    That is just my two cents.

    Parent

    Please provide your input to (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:46:02 PM EST
    Congress and the White House as well as the the Congressperson mentioned above who is quite outspoken against increasing U.S. presence in Afghanistan.

    Parent
    Waste of Time (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by dissenter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:51:17 PM EST
    I can tell you that there are more than a few people that would like to hand over vast amounts of information to our govt on numerous things.

    That won't happen for one reason. There is no effective whistle blower law for most of us. If you go to the IG, you can be sure you will never work again.

    Until there is effective whistle blower laws, nobody is coming forward. They have watched too many others destroyed for doing so.

    Parent

    sad commentary. (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:58:40 PM EST
    Expect any change about this under Obama admin? (none / 0) (#94)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 06:13:08 PM EST
    Did you see Jesselyn's diary at DK (none / 0) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:57:42 AM EST
    about Gates continuing the past whistle blower lynching parties.  Looks like Obama is going to give it to him too, sick, sad, and wrong!

    Parent
    Thanks for the information, especially (none / 0) (#56)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:41:08 PM EST
    the part about the military and poppies.

    Parent
    I, too, have (none / 0) (#67)
    by KeysDan on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:08:18 PM EST
    great respect for Richard Holbrooke, but I, like many commenters here, have foundational concerns such as history, mission, who and what is the enemy in 2009, and will American troop escalation further destabilize the region.  The approach may well be "multifaceted" to address the "problems" of the region but the repurposed furniture still looks like a one-legged stool.  The first, new visible step was to cede to the military's request of additional ground troops (yes, less than requested, but the military does not negotiate with itself) even before the previously announced strategic review has been completed.  As we all know, too well, it is easier to put troops in than take them out.  Moreover, the costs of this waring along with the continuing expenses of the recognized debacle that is Iraq need to be taken into account.   With our too recent history with so called slam dunks as well as quagmires, I think the better question to seriously ponder is why would the Afghan escalation not be a debacle?

    Parent
    How much incursion into Pakistan (none / 0) (#16)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:05:44 PM EST
    is necessary to fight terrorism in the region?


    A very good question (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:08:36 PM EST
    n my view, a great deal more than anyone want to say publically.

    Parent
    yup (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:17:14 PM EST
    The biggest risk, IMO, is that we destabilize the Pakistani government.

    Parent
    Or we might stabilize it (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:19:30 PM EST
    Hope we don't Cambodia-ize Pakistan -- I'm pretty (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:47:33 PM EST
    sure Nixon did not plan on the US invasion leading to Khmer Rouge takeover in Cambodia. And certainly not the Killing Fields.

    War is unpredicatable, and its outcomes are unpredicatable.

    Parent

    I hope (none / 0) (#37)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:23:06 PM EST
    Is it your opinion Pakistan's government (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:20:04 PM EST
    is stable now?  I especially inquire due to the recent dev. of gov't. saying--o.k. you guys do Sharia law.  The rest of us will stick with the civil code.

    Parent
    Not particularly (none / 0) (#35)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:22:50 PM EST
    What they need is to find some way to neutralize the militants. I'm not sure if that can be done easily or at all. I hope it can.

    Parent
    What do you make (none / 0) (#28)
    by Steve M on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:19:57 PM EST
    of Sen. Feinstein's unfortunate gaffe from the other day?

    Parent
    Feinstein has never been (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:23:03 PM EST
    the sharpest pencil in the box.

    Parent
    I much prefer Barbara Boxer (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:24:37 PM EST
    She's the closest I have to ideological representation in the Senate.

    Parent
    I adore her in every way. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lobary on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:33:54 PM EST
    What I wouldn't give to have her as my senator instead of that toad Cornyn.

    Parent
    she's not a bad actress either! (none / 0) (#55)
    by lilburro on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:40:25 PM EST
    (Curb Your Enthusiasm)

    Parent
    A friend explained it thusly: this (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:20:54 PM EST
    was something Sen. Feinstein read in the paper and wasn't vouching for.  Do you buy that?

    Parent
    I do not (none / 0) (#42)
    by Steve M on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:29:46 PM EST
    I've never heard anything remotely like this before, and Pakistan certainly seems to have reacted like it was a big secret.  And the reaction seems to suggest that it's true rather than false.

    Parent
    I didn't buy it either. (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:33:46 PM EST
    If Pakistan is doing that, the government there certainly didn't want it publicized.  

    Parent
    Really (none / 0) (#53)
    by lilburro on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:38:20 PM EST
    what paper is she reading?  She should've blamed the blogs.

    Parent
    I agree with you and Andgarden. (none / 0) (#31)
    by ThatOneVoter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:20:24 PM EST
    Good question. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Fabian on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:08:51 PM EST
    It will be difficult to remove the Taliban threat if they flee across the border and slink back again when the coast is clear.

    Parent
    There was a former CIA Af/Pak expert on Charlie (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:50:25 PM EST
    Rose who said the border is arbitrary, then essentially said US should just ignore it and do what the US gov't/military feels needs to be done.

    How's that for respecting international law and nations' sovereignty?

    And the US would react just how to some country taking that approach to our borders?

    Parent

    Martha Radditz and others on Rose panel said 30K (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 06:01:12 PM EST
    troops (with additional support personel) is a drop in the bucket for the spread out threats in Afghanistan.  

    On CBS News just now reporter said 60K boots on the ground needed -- will probably be sent in before end of the year. Welladay.

    Several dissenting views as to wisdom of going big in Af/Pak.

    Now, the expense of supplying troops in Afghanistan is far greater per person being supplied than in Iraq. In Iraq there are modern roads, most of the troops are in urban areas. In Afghanistan, troops are needed in far more rural and rugged areas. What roads?  The troops are not that far from seaports in Iraq. Quite different in Afghanistan.

    Bernhard at Moon of Alabama has had several indepth posts about the supply problems facing th US military:

    Parent

    Mission objective (none / 0) (#23)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:17:40 PM EST
    Who will we be fighting in Afghanistan? AQ or Taliban or both?

    Will we accept the Taliban ruling the country? If so, how does that benefit the people in Afghanistan? Taliban rule didn't work out for our interests the last time. Yet they must have a significant hold on the people (Religion?). They've been run out before and yet they've managed to work their way back into control.

    I'd like to know the adminstrations answers to those questions before I decide.

    Do you foresee the Taliban (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:19:06 PM EST
    winning an election?

    Parent
    They control most of country (none / 0) (#41)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:28:48 PM EST
    No one expected Hamas to win in the Palestinian territory.

    I'm just not convinced that the Afghan people want rid of the Taliban. They were rid of them and yet within a couple of years they were back. They must have support. They aren't just the military power. They're the religous power also and that's a lot harder to defeat.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Steve M on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:31:25 PM EST
    No one expected Hamas to win?  Are you sure you don't mean that lots of people expected Hamas to win?

    In the last poll I saw of the Afghani people, 4% of them wanted the Taliban back in charge of the country.  Ron Paul has more support than that.

    Parent

    Good to hear (none / 0) (#54)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:40:17 PM EST
    I hadn't read that. Thanks. Maybe this time it will work.

    Parent
    how vare polls coinducted in that land? (none / 0) (#120)
    by Salo on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:04:59 AM EST
    what data could possibly be taken seriously?

    Parent
    Hm? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:18:14 AM EST
    There have been public opinion polls taken in Iraq all the time over the last several years.  It's not like the entire country is perpetually under a hail of bullets.

    Parent
    wrong country (none / 0) (#127)
    by CST on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:42:54 AM EST
    afghanistan...

    Parent
    Do I have to spell it out? (none / 0) (#128)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:52:30 AM EST
    If they can take poll after poll in Iraq given the conditions of the last several years, there's no reason to think they couldn't take polls in Afghanistan as well.

    Parent
    apparently... (none / 0) (#129)
    by CST on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:03:43 AM EST
    you do :)

    I didn't get that before, makes sense though.

    Parent

    Most of the people (none / 0) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:29:58 PM EST
    live near and in Kabul

    Parent
    Which is the area Karzai (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:32:07 PM EST
    reallly rules, isn't it?  Don't the tribal leaders and Taliban pretty much have the rest of the county?  

    Additional U.S. troops to Afghanistan before national election.

    Parent

    Not true (none / 0) (#58)
    by dissenter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    A ton of people are migrating to Kabul because they are starving but while Kabul is the largest city in Afghanistan most people live outside of the city.

    Additionally, Karzai can't even control Kabul. There are Taliban all over the city and they can attack at will.

    And yes, Taliban sympathizers can win the election. I know nobody wants to hear that but they will win just like Hamas won because while they may not be loved, they are the only people providing services like health care, settling legal disputes, etc in the country. More to the point, they already control two thirds of the country. They can do whatever they want to the ballot boxes.

    Parent

    Live near (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:55:04 PM EST
    Nope (none / 0) (#64)
    by dissenter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:58:25 PM EST
    Herat is huge. Mazar is huge. Kandahar is huge.

    Population is far more spread out than you would imagine.

    Parent

    FWIW (none / 0) (#70)
    by daring grace on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:17:54 PM EST
    Hm (none / 0) (#75)
    by Steve M on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:28:50 PM EST
    That map looks a little dated.

    Parent
    So It Is (none / 0) (#85)
    by daring grace on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:10:12 PM EST
    Relief Web has a map from the UN Refugee Agency featuring graphs of 'Afghanistan Estimated Population 2008-2009' and 'Assisted Refugees 2002-2008'.

    The map downloads as a PDF file here.

    Parent

    They had (none / 0) (#47)
    by CST on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:32:56 PM EST
    money and guns...

    that's all the power most tyrants need.

    Parent

    I do not believe it (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:23:55 PM EST
    Sorry, I do not.

    And the more I look this morning (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:51:38 AM EST
    the more it looks like we are ramping up to make war on poppies.  This from the Chicago Tribune reporting on their National Guardsmen there.

    NAD ALI DISTRICT, Afghanistan--The Afghan police drove the tractors efficiently, turning over the soil and the green shoots and within minutes destroying almost 4 acres of this country's most valuable crop--poppies, used to produce the world's largest supply of heroin.

    Off in the distance, a ring of Afghan and U.S. soldiers protected the police, part of a new program in troublesome Helmand province that marks the first time international forces have been this involved in poppy eradication since the fall of the Taliban regime in late 2001.

    On that perimeter, 1st Lt. William Sandell, an Illinois National Guard soldier from Johnsburg, Ill., waited for the enemy, knowing it could be just about anyone. Farmers, Taliban, residents of a nearby village--no one from around here wants the poppy crop destroyed. The operation had been attacked four of the previous five days.

    Is this going to finish Canada off in serving with us in Afghanistan?  They have already fought their hearts out.  They took some serious losses and they are one of the few NATO committed who can really fight side by side with us.  Other countries have regulations about what their soldiers can be used for.  Canada isn't going to like this.  The NATO commander is onboard for making war on the poppy right now too, and he is one of ours - an ugly American.  This isn't the stuff of good diplomacy.

    At a time when the Obama administration is refocusing the fight against terrorism in the region, this is a major change in policy. But it also is highly controversial with many European leaders, who worry that NATO involvement in eradicating drugs could prove counterproductive, legally questionable and helpful as a propaganda tool for the Taliban.



    Parent
    Gates wants to take on poppies (none / 0) (#113)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:16:14 AM EST
    Has said that this is one of "his" priorities.  I hope this whole deal isn't headed in that direction. If I thought someone in the house was ticked about having to drive people out of the ammo dumps in Iraq via dust and wind whipping helicopter while the Bush administration ignored the existence of those dumps for years, I probably haven't heard any real complaining yet until he has to run people out of fields of flowers with one.

    Parent
    One of the weekly news magazines has (none / 0) (#62)
    by esmense on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 03:54:21 PM EST
    already had the cover "Obama's Vietnam" (I think it ran a week after he took office) -- which was in my view outrageous. It is a fact that no Western power has had success in Afghanistan. It is also a fact that we absolutely do need a successful outcome in Afghanistan. That won't be achieved by military force alone, but, it also can't be achieved without it.

    Even though history says failure is likely, for our security and the stability of the region we can't afford to leave the situation in the mess it's in now. Since Obama promised more engagement in Afghanistan from the very beginning of his campaign for the presidency, I presume he and his advisors have given a lot of thought to what needs to be done and how it might be accomplished. And, I hope they're right.

    Flowers and Candy (none / 0) (#71)
    by SOS on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:20:58 PM EST
    Gen. David McKiernan, commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, predicted Wednesday that the additional 17,000 U.S. military forces to be sent to Afghanistan will remain there for as long as five years.

    Stalemate in S. Afghanistan at (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:24:41 PM EST
    We have entered (none / 0) (#74)
    by SOS on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:28:08 PM EST
    a phase where we must sustain the growth of all the companies profiting from war.

    Sounds about right.

    Let's at least recognize it's Agh-Pak, the (none / 0) (#76)
    by masslib on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    war has largely moved over to Pakistan.  I'm not sure this will help.  I tend to agree with what John Kerry said four years ago, it's mainly an intelligence/policing mission, not military.  I agree with Feingold that diplomacy and investment are more important than the military presence.  But I also understand what's happening in Pakistan.  The Taliban are taking over, and Pakistan has nuclear weapons.  I'm just glad Holbrooke is on the job.  It's a mess there, and he's an excellent diplomat.

    Didn't they attack us... (none / 0) (#79)
    by Samuel on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:47:24 PM EST
    to provoke a war in the first place?  

    We trained Osama on bankrupting imperialist powers through war profiteer enabling provocation, not on killing random people.  

    There's no money to be made and no safety to be gained from doing this.  

    They? (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 04:58:51 PM EST
    Can you identify them?

    Parent
    The alleged. (none / 0) (#118)
    by Samuel on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:10:47 AM EST
    Terrorists silly.  What were you implying?

    I even said Osama in my post.

    Parent

    FYI (none / 0) (#119)
    by CST on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:46:23 AM EST
    Osama and his "buddies" are mostly Saudi.

    The Taliban helped protect them, but they were not one and the same.

    Parent

    What do you think I'm saying? (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Samuel on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:06:32 AM EST
    This is a misunderstanding between you and I.

    I was asserting that we trained Osama in the 80s on how to bankrupt an imperialist power specifically by provoking a war with no clear objective in Afghanistan. This was clearly the goal of 9/11 - to give war profiteers the opportunity to profit while crashing our economy.  

    Maybe the "religious fanatics" did not realize this was the big picture when they were killing themselves (just like our soldiers have no clue that the fact we're paying them is 'letting the terrorists win' since it was clearly their objective) but it's clear that the CIA tactics to bring down the Soviet economy were being used against us.

    The purpose of my comment was to raise the question "why is escalation good?" since it seemed the debate had fallen into little details of strategy and was ignoring that we're just squandering resources, risking Americans and killing innocents for no particularly compelling reason - all the while destroying our economy - the exact reason we were attacked.  

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#125)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:37:04 AM EST
    I misread your earlier comment, my bad. Thought you were supporting the escalation..

    Parent
    Yea I reread... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Samuel on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:35:08 PM EST
    I would have done the same with that subject.  Sounded ridiculously ignorant.  I posted some more junk on the subject just below in response to the other guy - fyi since you seem like minded.  


    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#126)
    by CST on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:41:44 AM EST
    Misunderstood

    And I have no comment about the rest of it.  I really don't know what the right move to make is at this point.  You bring up a good question though.  Although I am not sure I agree with this:
    "for no particularly compelling reason"

    but I am kinda a bleeding heart for girls that get acid thrown at them for trying to go to school.  And yes, I am well aware that's not why we were there in the first place, but it sure makes it hard (for me) to turn a blind eye and walk away now that we are there.

    I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers though.  For all I know, we may be making it worse...

    Parent

    yes... (none / 0) (#124)
    by Salo on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:18:45 AM EST
    ....some Saudis and Egyptians tricked America into a very expesive conflict obn ground of their own choosing.

    Parent
    My Problem (none / 0) (#84)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 05:10:03 PM EST
    With the military is that they most likely will behave the same way that they did in Iraq. Afghanistan and more specifically FATA, the region between Pakistan and Afghanistan has been tribal for ever.

    One of the big problems in Iraq, imo, was that the security forces and US military were not able to distinguish who was bad from who was being liberated. So everyone muslim looking was  al qaida.  The problem is worse in Afghanistan, especially in the tribal regions.

    And given that many seem gung ho to wreak vengance for 9/11, still. I still remember the horror stories of US troops sweeping Afghanis up and putting them in containers all day or more in the sun and then shooting at the sides of the container to see if anyone lived through the hellish torture.  

    It is not a crime for people to dislike the US or its policies. What I imagine happening is that everyone killed will just be called al qaida and we will increase the hatred toward the US rather than assuage it.

    And the predator drones are bad news, imo. Too many civilians getting killed by a machine.

    Just hit me: We've been in Afghanistan since first (none / 0) (#96)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 06:31:16 PM EST
    Sunday in October, 2001.

    (Maybe earlier, but announced on that Sunday -- I remember waking up to the news and praying that not too many Afghan people would be killed, and that Bush would live up to his promises to bring freedom and safety to the women of the country.  That he would live up to his talk about a Marshall Plan for Afghanistan which would make it into an example of a free, vibrant, economically viable nation in the area.)

    Seven years, four and a half months.

    Just hit me: We've been in Afghanistan since first (none / 0) (#97)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 06:33:03 PM EST
    Sunday of October, 2001.

    Seven years four and a half months.

    Heh, message said not posted due to no subj. line (none / 0) (#98)
    by jawbone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 06:33:45 PM EST
    Well, that was just wrong!

    Parent
    Missing the point. (none / 0) (#100)
    by Radix on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 07:46:35 PM EST
    Afghanistan is only marginaly the point of all this. Pakistan, however, is much more important. What with the nukes and all.

    Obama is going to have to sell it (none / 0) (#107)
    by vicndabx on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 09:04:19 PM EST
    just like his stimulus plan.  I for one believe we should go for the two-fer in Afghanistan since we should be there anyway to combat the Taliban and growth of AQ and their ilk in the region.  Afghanistan is a much better place for an experiment in development of Democracy than Iraq, but only if we get buy-in from both our fellow citizens along w/the rest of world so we don't go it alone.  Dissenter's post was quite informative and he/she asks a valid question:

    Is it right to spend a trillion on a country that refuses to give half its citizens even the most basic human rights?

    My answer is yes - if those in the country want those rights.  Only thru our altruism will we defeat the spread of terrorism and truly build a world community.  Indeed, sticks go quite well w/carrots.

    That is what I thought (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by dissenter on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 09:51:10 PM EST
    Until I learned that most Afghans are just fine with women being second class slaves. I couldn't wait to save women.

    It was a rude awakening to find that most Afghan women are fine with their social status. I know that is shocking to westerners but I found some of the most vial people in that entire country to be women. I am one just for the record.

    Once you get outside Kabul....it is like walking into the 13th century. Even some of the female university "graduates" defy explanation. I tried for months to hire one but I couldn't find one that I could deal with on a daily basis. Instead, I found a few young men from the university and their views towards women's rights were light years ahead of the female university graduates I interviewed.

    Do not get me wrong, I sympathize greatly with the women who want an education and want to move forward but they are very much in the minority in that tribal society. As westerners it is hard for us to comprehend that.

    I became quite ill while in country. I had to go to the military hospital. I was visited by some doctors in the middle of the night who wanted my a opinion on a case they had. They told me that a woman had been set on fire and they wanted to know whether someone would really do that to themselves or was there another more likely suspect in the story. There were differing claims on what happened.

    I listened to the story and then told them three things could have happened. Yes, the woman could have set herself on fire to get out of a bad situation. Or the husband could have done it because of some real or perceived slight. Or thirdly, and just as likely, the mother in law did it.

    All three scenarios were plausible. The military doctors were shocked and couldn't understand why the mother in law would do it. I told them that unfortunately in Afghanistan the tortured quickly become the torturers. A woman has no power in society until her son marries. She then ironically controls his life and choices. Many times, she also makes the daughter in law into her personal slave.

    While nobody wants to talk about it, a lot of women in Afghanistan are in fact torturers.  

    Like I said, unless you want to spend trillions and have the patience to watch the country develop over three generations...you better be careful what you start.

    In my opinion, we will all be dead by the time the experiment is finished and women are given basic rights in Afghanistan.

    The women who want freedom, marry more enlightened men and together they have one goal. To get the hell out of the country.

    Nobody that wants big change wants to stay. They know it is not possible in their lifetimes.

    Parent

    For context, what were you doing in Afghanistan? (none / 0) (#110)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 11:18:55 PM EST
    When were you there and for how long? (Just curious.)

    Parent
    Answer (none / 0) (#140)
    by dissenter on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:39:40 PM EST
    Agriculture reconstruction. I will have to leave it at that to protect myself. However, Jeralyn has met me in the flesh. I was actually going to become a blogger from the front for her but I almost died in country and had to come home.

    I tried to shine some light on some serious issues over there and for my trouble my career was nearly destroyed. I hope you understand that. There is nothing more lonely or depressing than being a whistle blower.

    I do hope that one day in the future I can write a dissertation about what I saw. Unfortunately, I can't do that right now.

    This administration is no better than the previous one on this issue although I wish Obama the best. The problem with Afghanistan is that people are easily seduced into believing they can fix things. The new bosses are as naive as the old bosses and that is being kind. If they really wanted change, they would protect the people that want to bring problems to light. They don't or they would enact whistle blower laws. From what I can see, they have gone out of their way to ensure that doesn't happen.    

    As for the grandfather's account of what he saw 80 years ago...I have no trouble believing that. Not much has changed since then.

    Like I said, Afghanistan is a graveyard. For everyone that touches it.


    Parent

    Thought provoking... (none / 0) (#143)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:00:20 PM EST
    I'm wondering why you give both the old bosses and the new boss the benefit of being naive.

    Imo, to varying degrees, they are all knowingly acting in bad faith on behalf of empire building and moneyed, private interests.

    Parent

    anacdote from my Grandfather. (none / 0) (#122)
    by Salo on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 10:15:23 AM EST
    He said that the women there were more ferocious than the men even in the 1920s. If a captured British soldier was handed over to the women around Kandahar he was often tortured and dismembered. Many Indian or British infantry really did prefer suicide over capture. There's even a military song about it...

    Sounds like nothing has changed in 70 years on gender front. The tribal society there is far too backward  or ideosyncratic to be dealt with in a way that is comprehensible to westerners.

    Parent

    But do you have any first hand experience (none / 0) (#134)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 12:49:05 PM EST
    in Afghanistan, as you earlier comment suggests:
    Even some of the female university "graduates" defy explanation. I tried for months to hire one but I couldn't find one that I could deal with on a daily basis. Instead, I found a few young men from the university and their views towards women's rights were light years ahead of the female university graduates I interviewed.

    The conclusions you reach via your grandfather (from the 1920s) aren't very credible in this context. That was more than 80 years ago and, at best, you're repeating second-hand impressions  that smack of xenophobia and gynophobia.


    Parent

    Foxhole..... (none / 0) (#135)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:02:19 PM EST
    you've got two posters mixed up. The grandfather comment was from Salo and the block quote was from Dissenter.

    Parent
    Salo, seems I confused you (none / 0) (#137)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:26:20 PM EST
    with another commenter named Dissenter who was saying some similar things - which are similarly disconcerting.

    Parent
    a "surge" in afghanistan, (none / 0) (#111)
    by cpinva on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:11:49 AM EST
    unless it includes at least a million troops, will accomplish nothing of substance. that's pretty much what was required to defeat germany during wwII, from D-Day until april, 1945. bear in mind, that was against an organized military, over reasonably flat terrain.

    unless you're prepared to start at one end of afghanistan, and literally sweep it to the other end, destroying everything that looks like an enemy in your path (much like sherman through georgia), and the means for them to continue waging war, then don't waste good resources.

    as well, you'll then have to seal the entire border, to keep those fighters that got away from returning. good luck with that.

    unless a return to the draft is contemplated, we haven't sufficient troops, and diplomacy, to secure help, from russia or anyone else, will be a total waste of time and breath.

    alas, this is the consequence of "war on the cheap", you gets what you pays for.

    Wait a minute... (none / 0) (#146)
    by TDoc on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:30:57 PM EST
    It's a tough job for Obama to explain to the nation, let alone the world, why and how this troop surge is going to do any good to the situation.

    According to this video, Americans are against it, the Afghans are angry about the civilian deaths, and the NATO allies are reluctant to increase their support.

    But then again, Bush had done a terrible job explaining before and the whole nation hasn't collapsed... let's hope Obama's decision yields different outcomes.

    My Two Cents (none / 0) (#147)
    by libertarian soldier on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:17:23 PM EST
    The additional troops will indeed--as part of a combined effort--being going after poppies in an operational sence.
    When the international community corridanted divided up responsibilities, the US took the Army (ANA), the Germans took the police (ANP), the UK took poppy eradication/drug interdiction, and Italy took the judiciary.
    The Germans failed and through up their hands, and handed over the ANP mission to the US.  As poppy growing became more widespread, the UK (despite great work by their SAS) became too overextended from both a manpower and an equipment standpoint to accomplish their mission.  Judicial reform has been a complete disaster (few resources and little experience) and USAID and DOS INL are carrying on much of that effort.
    The most successful aspect of improving security/building capacity has been with the ANA.  This is not because the US military is so great (although it is) but for structural reasons: the US poured in the most resources; the US has a half century of building capacity in 3rd World militaries; the ANA is a national institution and centrally controlled so it is less influenced by regional warlords; the widespread illiteracy has relatively less effect than in the Afghan National Police (ANP) or trying to create a judiciary (basic soldiering can be learned through hands on training, there are always supervisors/leaders present, the Afghans know how to fight, and the kind of warfare their basic mission calls for is far different than the sophisticated mid/high intensity combat Western militaries have to be able to accomplish).  Lastly, the presence of Western mentors/trainers/advisors at all levels limits opportunities for the more egregious aspects of corruption (if you have an advisor with a unit, he can count vehicles, weapons, radios, monitor fuel usage, etc.)
    The Afghans are also deploying three battalions of their mobile police from the North to the South to reinforce the efforts there.
    The general intent is for the US reinforcements to take on the tactical fight, freeing up the UK forces to increase their efforts on eradication and the ANP to deal with local security in towns and villages.
    I work with the ANP.

    Sorry (none / 0) (#148)
    by libertarian soldier on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:27:16 PM EST
    Should start out:
    The additional troops will indeed--as part of a combined effort--being going after poppies in an operational sense.
    When the international community  coordinated to divide up responsibilities

    Parent
    That's a lot to take in, but... (none / 0) (#149)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 11:02:21 AM EST
    I'm trying.

    In the meantime, what do you make of this pre-Iraq story from The Village Voice, December 11/01: How we lost Afghanistan?

    It seems to reflect many of your observations. If you want to reply on an active open thread at some later time (where more people will read it), please leave me a heads-up here on this thread. Cheers.

    Obama, Feingold, Afghanistan and Talkleft (none / 0) (#150)
    by empirefalling on Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 06:53:35 PM EST
    President Obama got my vote in the presidential elections, but doesn't get my vote on the Afghanistan decision.  There is no winning strategy for Afghanistan, if for no other reason than that we eventually have to go home and then Afghanistan will be Afghanistan.  It was a mistake to spend energy defeating the Taliban, not because they are some kind of good guys, but because there was and there is no national security reason for doing so, and, I might add, it is not our country.  The only reason to be around Afghanistan is to disarticulate Al Quaeda.  We should forget about the Taliban being our enemy, not they are not enemy to many, but they pose no threat to us.  It is a problem for the Afghanis and the region.  Concentrate on disarticulating Al Quaeda.  This is not a huge mission.  A protected base or two in Southern Afghanistan and a naval presence off the coast is good enough for the kind of intelligence gathering and ability for quick and precise strikes on Al Quaeda targets that would be needed.  No more troops.  We don't have enough troops to make Afghanistan safe for Afghanis, nor enough to extend the current government's raach beyond the capital.  Sorry, but even good presidents make mistakes.  Unfortunately, most of the time, the mistakes come in foreign policy and on questions of military strategy and national security needs.  That is where the democrats also get it wrong - Johnson on Vietnam, Clinton on Somalia and now Obama in Afghanistan.