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Thursday Afternoon Open Thread

President Obama is in Canada today on a visit with the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Matt Yglesias writes a good post on the importance of the US-Canada relationship.

This is an Open Thread.

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    North Korea Regime Change (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:07:43 PM EST
    News from Hillary:

    The Obama administration and America's Asian allies are preparing for a possible regime change in North Korea, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday.

    [snip]

    "If there is a succession -- even if it is a peaceful succession -- you know, that creates more uncertainty," Clinton said. "It also may encourage behaviors that are even more provocative, as a way to consolidate power within the society. So we will spend a lot of time -- I will -- trying to determine from the South Koreans and the Chinese what their information is, because obviously they have a lot of sources they can share with us."

    FOX

    How refreshing that the unilateral BushCo method is over and we are talking to other countries rather than just threatening to wipe evil axi off  the face of the earth.

    Sources (none / 0) (#12)
    by lentinel on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:23:08 PM EST
    The best source about information about North Korea would be the North Koreans. Going to interested parties like South Korea and China for information about North Korea is more theatrics that true fact finding, in my opinion.

    She should go to North Korea. Talk to any and everybody. Get a sense for what is going on. Otherwise, it's the same old game of international intrigue that never, ever, resolves.

    Parent

    May the U.S. Secretary of State enter (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:27:55 PM EST
    North Korea w/o an invitation?  May anyone?

    Parent
    Depends on if she gets caught :) (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    I dunno (none / 0) (#17)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:32:38 PM EST
    Diane Sawyer went there!  Did you see that special?  But I'm pretty sure she had to ask first.

    The kids all look happy and creepy and brainwashed, like in a cult, or on the Barney show.

    Parent

    Wouldn't everyone who wanted to travel (none / 0) (#95)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:58:56 PM EST
    there need an invitation in the form of a visa? We can't get into any foreign country that doesn't share our borders without one.


    Parent
    Not accurate. EU doesn't share an (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:21:03 PM EST
    border w/US; no visa needed for U.S. passport holders to enter and EU country.  

    Parent
    I don't know the requirements for N Korea (none / 0) (#98)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:23:42 PM EST
    but US citizens don't need a visa to enter the UK or any of the european countries that accept the schengen visa.

    Parent
    True enough (none / 0) (#107)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:51:07 PM EST
    I didn't need a visa to enter the UK; but I definitely needed one to get married there!

    Parent
    Not Possible (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:42:32 PM EST
    As far as I can tell. N Korea is the new Albania. It is one of the most secretive countries in the world.

    North Korea threatened Monday to test a missile capable of reaching the United States, as Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton began consultations with regional leaders on the security threat from the reclusive state, the global economic crisis and other issues.

    In an apparent attempt to command attention, North Korea hinted that it will test-launch a Taepodong 2 missile from its eastern coast.



    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#19)
    by bocajeff on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:33:51 PM EST
    Isn't that why we have intelligence agencies, diplomats, ambassadors, etc...to look for these things way in advance?

    So, Clinton will speak to two other countries and see what they know?

    Save the time and send an email if that's the approach...

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:35:54 PM EST
    Your insight into methods of intelligence gathering is stunning.

    Parent
    I like to gather intelligence over (none / 0) (#23)
    by ThatOneVoter on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:46:39 PM EST
    mint tea, personally.

    Parent
    The disease is spreading.... (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:42:54 PM EST
    lets call it bailout-itis....check this guy out.

    80k a year, kids in private school, two-family house recently renovated, and crying poverty.  Unreal.  Here's a clue guy...put the kids in public school and cut up the credit cards...for starters, then report back.

    What the hell is going on around here?  I was taught that you do everything within your power to help yourself first, and if that fails you loof to others for help...this guy doesn't even appear to be trying.

    Don't get me wrong, I can sympathize, NY is an expensive place.  But this is getting ridiculous.

    My office manager just nailed it... (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:54:00 PM EST
    he was describing the office, but it applies to the nation as well I think.

    "This place is like a whorehouse, the better you are the more you get screwed."

    I almost fell on the floor.

    Parent

    Of course he's trying (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:05:37 PM EST
    The way you get help in this country when you're in a tight spot is that you get yourself in the newspaper, and then all sorts of kind-hearted people come out of the woodwork to help you.  The exception seems to be that octuplet lady who is apparently getting more death threats than baby blankets.

    If I ever get behind on my rent I plan to start a Facebook group.  "I bet I can find 1,000,000 people who want Steve's daughter to have a roof over her head."

    Parent

    Not a bad idea... (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:16:09 PM EST
    next time I get tight I'll call the Daily News..."kdog has been hit hard by the economic downturn, he only makes 40k a year and is reduced to smoking regs instead of the hydro he is accustomed too...he needs Obama's help"...:)

    Seriously though...I can't even call this a tight spot.  There is probably half a million NY'ers in tighter spots...this guy has some pair.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:32:30 PM EST
    I mean, if that guy is going to be the face of the pro-bailout movement, it's going to be pretty hard to build popular support.

    On the other hand, let's not be too hard on him.  Many people send their kids to private school not as some kind of luxury, but because their local schools are really bad (although why you'd pay half a million bucks to live in a neighborhood with bad schools, I have no idea).  And it doesn't sound like he ran up $70,000 in credit card debt through frivolous spending, it sounds like he was forced to start putting money on the credit cards because it got hard to meet his mortgage payment.

    On the whole, though, the guy didn't need to be a genius to know that he shouldn't be taking out a no-money-down mortgage with a $3,400 monthly payment given his financial situation.  Any bit of common-sense advice my dad gave me growing up, any standard formula for how big your mortgage payment should be, would have told him that was a risky move.

    But in the end - here's the key point - if we're going to help out people like this, it's not because we think that individually they're so sympathetic that they deserve taxpayer help.  It's because the country is in a situation where the situation of all the people like this, collectively, is bad enough that if we just sit back and let them suffer the consequences, it's going to be bad for everyone.  Maybe not you, Mr. Off The Grid, but for most people.

    And the ultimate question is how we, as a society, can avoid getting in a position where the bad decisions of a few people have a major impact on us all.  It's like how somewhere along the line we screwed up by letting all those banks get "too big to fail."

    Parent

    Hopefully, we can improve (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:40:41 PM EST
    the safety net in the process.

    Parent
    Mr. Piker is a red herring and a small fish (none / 0) (#46)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:50:31 PM EST
    and a fish in a barrel - shooting away at him is an exercise in futility.

    It only serves to divert attention from the wholesale gluttony of the big fish on Wall Street. Still, if you must - have at it! I've had enough fish for now ;-)

    Parent

    No doubt... (none / 0) (#103)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:33:10 PM EST
    but I expect it from Wall St., the big banks , monolith corporations...that's a given:)  They've had the game rigged in their favor for a long time.  Don't do business with them, or as iittle as possible.  I don't know how we get 'em off the dole...it's rigged.

    I guess my parents were suckers for sleeping on a fold-out couch for 20 years so their kids could have the bedrooms, they coulda bought a two family right off the bat.  I guess I just expect more of my class Foxhole.

    And I kinda question the wisdom of sending money to Washington only to plead for it back...isn't that stupid?

    Parent

    I thought we were going to help the people... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:41:46 PM EST
    And the ultimate question is how we, as a society, can avoid getting in a position where the bad decisions of a few people have a major impact on us all.

    who were really struggling and would end up homeless. This man has a liveable wage and in my opinion needs learn to live within his means and downgrade his standard of living quite a bit.

    Parent

    I understand... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:42:31 PM EST
    and if all he wants is the bank to renogotiate that ain't so terrible.  Still, the nerve of this guy, it makes your blood boil.

    It's just so hard to wrap your head around ...its like the middle class just got a taste of how the working class and working poor have been livin' in good times and in bad since forever.

    If this guy can't hack it at 80k without assistance, how is a slob working in the service sector making 35k with two kids have a chance in hell?  Or does he/she not matter because when they fail it doesn't effect the rest of us as much?

    I'm so dazed and confused....

    Parent

    I'm currently employed at (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:57:12 PM EST
    something like HALF of what I was making a year ago, downsized from 3 bedrooms to 1 to control expenses, and MY taxes are being taken to help out people like him, and banks like Citibank. In my wildest dreams...

    Actually, now that I've learned the help at Main St is only for the employed people who are current with their mortgage payments, I am not the least bit happy with where my tax dollars are going on this topic.


    Parent

    Well, how much rental income do you think (none / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:43:40 PM EST
    he's getting? How much was he making when he bought the house - before his OT got slashed? Not sure the $3400 monthly nut was all that outrageous when he bought the home.

    That said, who in their right mind buys a home with 0% down and thinks that's fiscally responsible?

    Parent

    If I had to guess.... (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:54:04 PM EST
    somewhere in and around 2 grand per month for half a two-family.

    I can sympathize with the guy...but that's life bro, we didn't make the rules.  Your income goes down your quality of life goes down...its just that simple.  

    Right off the top of my dome, he could rent out where he is living now, both rents will cover the mortgage, he can rent a place he can afford on his new reduced income and still own the house in 30 years.  No "woe is me", no "Obama help me"...problem solved for at least today.


    Parent

    I think you're solution is a good one. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:05:21 PM EST
    In fact, I think it's a great one.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#60)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:30:44 PM EST
    You know, I didn't think about the rental income.  We don't really have multi-family homes where I come from.  But yeah, if you're putting 0% down, that ought to be a red flag...

    Parent
    I want Steve's daughter to have a roof (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:25:02 PM EST
    over her head..... :-)!

    Parent
    I appreciate it! (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:41:04 PM EST
    999,999 supporters to go.

    Parent
    999,998. I'm in Steve. (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:43:02 PM EST
    9999,997 as long as... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by santarita on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:49:59 PM EST
    you don't file bankruptcy and try a cramdown.

    Parent
    Make that 999,996 to go... (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by caseyOR on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:05:25 PM EST
    Soon Steve will have two little ones who need a roof. Priorities, people. Save Steve's offspring! :)

    Parent
    At this rate Steve is not going (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:18:13 PM EST
    to need to start a Facebook page. Well, maybe he can use that to start the college fund!

    Parent
    But do we really want to reward a (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:34:26 PM EST
    person who has more kids than he can afford to raise?

    Parent
    LOL..... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:42:17 PM EST
    As long as he keeps it under 14!


    Parent
    You guys are the best (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:35:50 PM EST
    What a cutie baby! (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:37:48 PM EST
    Those are mom's eyes (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:46:03 PM EST
    She's 2 1/2 now.  Baby boy due next month, we still don't have a name for him!

    Parent
    Oh, we could help you choose a name! (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:47:18 PM EST
    P.S.  Still waiting for a photo of the Palin Halloween get up.

    Parent
    I wanted a Dane and was told (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:03:10 PM EST
    that I had named mine and this one was Joshua.  Then my daughter brought my Dane home.  He was perfect too and he listened to his mother. He still is and does, he says my daughter is too wild for him though......she can only be a friend :(

    Parent
    I don't necessarily approve of (none / 0) (#81)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:57:23 PM EST
    your wanton acts of procreation (joking), but here is the best boy's name in the book (the good book): Able.

    Think about it. I've never seen the name outside the bible - too bad, because it is such a fine and noble name.

    Parent

    M Steve? (none / 0) (#82)
    by santarita on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:59:43 PM EST
    or Jr. Steve M?

    Parent
    Awe, good for you guys (none / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:59:44 PM EST
    I tried Dr. Spock too.  Girl still pretended to cook all the time and I think she still pretends, boy sets up small wars of stuff battling stuff all over house.  It is my hope you have better luck.

    Parent
    "Suo" has a special ring to it. (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:01:06 PM EST
    To me at least...

    Parent
    cannot help it (none / 0) (#110)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 12:54:44 AM EST
    must... throw... a name out!  sorry Steve M!  I suggest Preston...my bro's name!  What can I say, he turned out to be a pretty cute, good little guy!

    Parent
    She's a keeper! (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:48:15 PM EST
    Such a sweetie-pie, Steve. (none / 0) (#100)
    by caseyOR on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:52:21 PM EST
    Totally cute kid.

    Parent
    I won't need any direct relief (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:37:00 PM EST
    as long as the taxpayers keep bailing out my clients... ;)

    Parent
    Don't you find that ironic? (none / 0) (#76)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:49:26 PM EST
    Sometimes I just have to laugh at the fact that my tax dollars are saving the same people that I make money from!

    Parent
    Ah, notice (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:47:06 PM EST
    No one says anything about YOU keeping a roof over your head, though!

    : 0

    Parent

    Now if they can get those... (none / 0) (#92)
    by EL seattle on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:29:23 PM EST
    ... micropayment thingies working, you'll be talking real .0000money!

    Parent
    Remember Henrietta Hughes? (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Amiss on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:35:04 PM EST
    She spoke as if her son that was homeless with her was a little boy, he is 37 years old. She took property and signed it over to him. Charitable organizations have offered them many kinds of help yet she refused, saying that they didnt meet their needs. Among the help offered was free apartment for 3 months, after which time they would have to pay $400/mo. She refused. They offered him job counseling and help finding a job. They refused.

    Parent
    She won't get a second bite at the apple (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 07:40:58 AM EST
    Personally, I thought it was a bit phoney that just because she managed to make it to the microphone, she was put at the front of the line. "Plant" came to mind instantly.


    Parent
    Sometimes I wonder (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 08:41:42 AM EST
    where people get their news.

    Hughes was offered a place to live that same day by the wife of Florida Republican House of Representatives member Nick Thompson. Hughes and her son moved into the house yesterday.

    Parent

    The charity group (none / 0) (#137)
    by Amiss on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 11:07:02 AM EST
    had offered her help BEFORE her appearance on Teevee! Being a resident of Florida, I get my news in Florida.

    Parent
    I knew someone like that once. (none / 0) (#112)
    by Fabian on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 04:58:39 AM EST
    Medically handicapped, functionally handicapped, received SSDI - yet refused any help that had strings attached.  She even had family who were willing to help, but again, there were strings attached.  There were multiple social services available to her, but she didn't want anything to do with them.

    I helped her for a little while, but I had to stop when I realized that I was enabling her irresponsible behavior.  It was incredibly frustrating to know I could have helped her to get so much help from people and agencies whose purpose is to do just that.

    Parent

    Are you really renting a home? (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:08:09 PM EST
    I had you pegged as a business and home owner...

    Parent
    I live in NYC (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:33:24 PM EST
    where virtually everyone, except this 0% guy I guess, is a renter!  We're hoping to have that house with the white picket fence in a couple years though... although the savings in the mutual fund aren't looking as good as they were for some reason.

    Parent
    NYC... (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:54:13 PM EST
    I grew up a few miles away in NJ and (mis)spent a lot of my youth in NYC. Fun for a while, but now that I've lived in the West for a few years, I'll never live east of the Rockies again.

    Good luck on the white picket fence!

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:42:29 PM EST
    I thought the % of owners of condos or coops in NYC was much higher than virtually 0.

    I thought I saw a stat that 50% in Manhattan rented.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:45:06 PM EST
    That might be right, when I say "everyone" rents I intend it colloquially.  Where I come from renting has a definite stigma, but in a market like NYC it's often the best option even for the well-to-do.

    I have a friend who bought a co-op in Manhattan... like $350,000 for a studio.  Well, it's an L-shaped studio, so it's one room but at least the bed is around the corner a little.

    Parent

    350,000 actually isn't bad for NYC. Which (none / 0) (#77)
    by tigercourse on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:50:09 PM EST
    is insane. It's hard to believe anyone other then Trump and his immediate family can afford to live in the City.

    Parent
    "350,000 actually isn't bad for NYC" (none / 0) (#84)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:01:00 PM EST
    I think that would depend on the square footage.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:02:12 PM EST
    I used to rent, rent stabilized very low rent, and then bought in the early 90s. My loft was about the same price as your friends studio back then. A little more $$ but much much more space..

    Parent
    kodg, your link doesn't work... (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:17:59 PM EST
    Hopeless Luddite.... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:27:08 PM EST
    Lets try again....Meet Mr. Piker

    You gotta check it, I think you'll get a kick out of it.  I couldn't believe my eyes reading it.

    Parent

    How do you qualify for a $555,000 home (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:33:10 PM EST
    on a $80,000 salary with $70,000 in credit card debt? Mind boggling.
    If a penny of my tax dollars goes to help this man I will be seriously pi$$ed off.

    Parent
    That was the housing bubble (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:40:13 PM EST
    A few years back that wouldn't have even been considered one of the crazier mortgages of the week.  Although, as I point out below, it sounds like he ran up the credit card debt after he started having trouble paying the mortgage, not back before he took the mortgage.

    As I was reminded just the other day, at the height of the housing bubble you could even do better than no money down.  Some places let you take a mortgage for like 105% of the purchase price, meaning not only do you put nothing down but you even get a little cash out of the deal.

    How this happened is that we allowed a system to arise where the banks who offered these mortgages didn't have to carry the risk of default.  You know there's no way anyone would have offered terms like that if they were the ones who would be screwed in the event of a default!

    Parent

    I knew it was crazy.... (none / 0) (#49)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:55:06 PM EST
    but it is not till I look at the numbers that I realize how crazy it was!
    Someone I know who works for one of the major brokerage firms (not anymore I guess!) is in over his head for the same reason. He has three high end properties in the NY/NJ metro area. He was even willing to let me rent one of his places for less than what he was paying for his monthly mortgage because he was so desperate but it made me too uncomfortable.

    Parent
    Not Unusual (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:01:46 PM EST
    FYI It is not unusual rent to not entirely cover the mortgage. Most are happy to get close.

    Parent
    Yeah.... (none / 0) (#57)
    by vml68 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:11:25 PM EST
    but I knew I would be paying him $800 less than his previous tenant and it made me feel like I was robbing him.
    Ofcourse I had no problem doing that to my current landlord because I went through a realtor and so it was not personal.

    Parent
    Two-Family Home - He rents out the other side (none / 0) (#53)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:02:02 PM EST
    "[Obama is] trying to take a deserving person whose mortgage is worth more than the property is and refinance them," he said. "It's not good to have people default. It's better to [give] them a lower rate."

    Wonder how the undeserving people feel about this.

    Parent

    Wow kdog. Before I left my long-time job, (none / 0) (#33)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:33:40 PM EST
    I made more money than that man did and there's no way in you know where I would have taken out a $555,000 mortgage. What was he thinking? I guess he rents part of it, but still.

    Parent
    Update... (none / 0) (#135)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:50:07 AM EST
    the Daily News also gives us a glimpse of the life of an anti-piker, this woman is living the right way...and striving to live even smarter.  Sun god bless her.

    Hope there are more like her...a lot more.  We all can't be on subsidies, somebody needs to subsidize...and it looks like it will be the working class opening her bosom for the big fat babies on Wall St.

    Parent

    Radley Balko (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by jnicola on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:31:08 PM EST
    has broken a story suggesting that the Mississippi prosecutorial establishment and their cohorts have been faking evidence to try and get a man killed, and are stupid enough to video the faking process. (Warning - the videos embedded in the story are more than a bit disturbing, in several ways.)

    Makes me want to vomit. (none / 0) (#47)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:53:08 PM EST
    Also makes me wonder why the hell would anyone voluntarily videotape themselves falsifying evidence.

    Parent
    Wow this is heinous. (none / 0) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:34:18 PM EST
    Financial meltdown (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:46:39 PM EST
    PBS's Frontline had a good program this week on the sequence of events "Inside the Meltdown," the first of apparently four programs they're doing on the subject.

    If you know a little bit about it, it's rivetingly presented, but not a whole lot of new info.  But on the program Web site, as is usual with Frontline, there's a whole lot of additional fascinating material, including transcripts of the extended interviews with the major talking heads in the film, everybody from Paul Krugman to Sheila Bair to "Ace" Greenberg, and Adam Davidson from NPR's "Planet Money" and a bunch of other economists, reporters and banking types.

    If you missed the program, you can watch it on line at the site, and there should be a transcript up soon, as well.

    The site map is here.

    Highly recommended.  Good stuff.

    Agree - I've only seen the first half (none / 0) (#45)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:49:59 PM EST
    hour, because I had to watch Top Chef - priorities, you know - but will watch the rest tonight.

    There certainly is something about that narrator's voice that makes you pay attention, isn't there?

    Everyone who ever wondered how we got here should watch that show.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#91)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:16:04 PM EST
    That narrator, Will Lyman, has been The Voice of PBS documentary programs for at least 30 years, maybe more.  He sounds like the omniscient voice of God, but he's probably some little pipsqueaky-looking guy.  What a great profession to be in, though!


    Parent
    Check him out yourself (none / 0) (#119)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 08:51:28 AM EST
    What was Stefan's deal? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Samuel on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:23:25 AM EST
    Bizarre.

    Parent
    I think he should have gone home; (none / 0) (#126)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:30:26 AM EST
    he's had a couple weeks of sub-par Elimination Challenge entries, and his attitude stinks - but, I think the conflict his presence generates is good for ratings, and that's why he's still there.  Is he a better chef than Fabio?  I guess it depends on your definition of "better," and whether it should be just the food that matters, or if other elements have to be part of the equation.

    I'm preparing to be disappointed at the finale - remember, every season, the chef that won the first Elimination Challenge went on to win it all, and Stefan won that first challenge.  Ugh.  Time for a break in the pattern, I think.


    Parent

    My Cynical Theory (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by daring grace on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:38:05 AM EST
    is that Top Chef keeps the obnoxious, but gifted contestants as long as possible for the drama.

    You're right. If elimination were based merely on the meal quality in each challenge, Stefan should have been gone by now.

    I'm expecting to be disappointed too.

    But it was a kick seeing Carla win this week!

    Parent

    I think he was euro clubbing... (none / 0) (#130)
    by Samuel on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:27:54 AM EST
    the entire break.  Look at his eyes in that episode - wild.

    I'm rooting for him because he's Fabio endorsed.  I really like Carla though...  

    Emeril looks like GWB.

    Parent

    I'll Check Out the Website... (none / 0) (#50)
    by santarita on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:55:55 PM EST
    thanks for the info.

    I didn't look at it in part because it sounded like there wasn't going to much new stuff.  And the NY Times compared it to "House of Cards" on CNBC (aka Stock Market Cheerleading Network) and thought House of Cards was better.  

    Parent

    No new stuff (none / 0) (#90)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:13:37 PM EST
    no, but I found the tick-tock riveting, since a lot of the stuff that went on we didn't really find out about until later, so having it all in sequence is useful for me.

    But the interviews, which I haven't read all of yet, have much more detail, although whether there's anything there you don't already know, I don't know.

    But there's really been precious little in any kind of media or blogs that explains all this in detail regular folks can begin to follow, so we get all this crap about "bailing out Wall Street fat cats!" and the like.


    Parent

    My Favorite Explanations... (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by santarita on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:45:00 PM EST
      It's Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's fault.    
      It's Clinton's fault.
      It's greed's fault.

    It's so much easier to understand complex event when you can boil them down to either meaningless soundbites or soundbites not based on facts.

    I caught a little bit of Washington Journal today with economists Dean Baker and Alex Pollack (from American Enterprise Institute).  Some caller called in and started on the Freddie and Fannie thing.  Even Pollack said that they were not a major cause although their meltdown was a major story.  

    There are many more moving parts to this story, some of which have not been fully explored, like the political aspects.  And I still think that there is going to be some hefty fines and some jail time.  Or at least there should be.  

    Parent

    Moving parts (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:53:25 PM EST
    Oh, boy, ain't that the truth.  Makes it very hard for those of us trying to learn about this stuff, and it also means that shoving (or halting) any one of those moving parts can have unforeseen consequences, which is why I'm OK with them going a little slow as they figure it out.

    Whether anybody significant did anything illegal, though, I'm skeptical.  These investment banks (RIP) employed all kinds of what they called "rocket scientists" to sit in back rooms with computers and try to dream up stuff that isn't regulated (because nobody'd thought about it) and could make them buckets of money.

    One of the things I found fascinating in the Frontline interviews is the change in the way investment banks operated, which I hadn't realized.  The idea of them actually purchasing and holding these crazy securitizations was new in the last however many years.

    They were buying and selling them on behalf of their clients and making a few bucks per transaction either way. But watching their clients get fantastically rich off of them, they decided to start buying and selling them for themselves.  Made them a lot of $$ for a while, but exposed them to huge risk they'd never been exposed to before, when they'd make their small but steady cash just from handling the transactions.

    Parent

    I Don't Fault the Quants... (none / 0) (#102)
    by santarita on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:18:53 PM EST
    they were just coming up with tools.  It's how those tools were used that created the problems.  And I suspect that the risk management departments at most of the institutions were doing their jobs.  I can only imagine the CYA memos to files.  The problems are at the higher levels, the people making management decisions regarding capitalization levels are the ones to look at.  And of course, the regulatory agencies and the credit rating agencies who drank the Kool-Aid.  

    You don't put people in jail for making honest mistakes,  But I'm not sure that these are all honest mistakes.  And when these mistakes cause trillions of taxpayer dollars to be transferred to the institutions and on an at risk basis - I'd spend a little time looking at boards  to make sure that they did more than just collect their honorariums and senior management to make sure that they did their jobs.

    Parent

    Of all these folks, the only (none / 0) (#109)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 11:58:23 PM EST
    ones I think might be criminally liable are the ratings agencies, but I don't know enough about criminal law as it relates to finance to know.  But these folks should have been the capitalist system's prime backstop, and they simply did not do their job, vouched for stuff they knew or should have known was toxic or at the very least couldn't be assessed at all.

    Does that violate any criminal code?  I don't know.

    Lord knows, most of the people involved in the whole mess are probably civilly liable to somebody, but you can't get milk out of a stone at this point.  It would certainly be nice to have a shareholder, investor or even employee suit against Dick Fuld (one of whose many homes is in the next town to mine, where I suspect but don't know he's been hiding out since none of the papers seemed to have figured out he has it-- probaby in somebody else's name-- but I digress...)

    But anyway, just because it's morally wrong and damages other people financially doesn't, unfortunately, mean it's prosecutable.

    You're sooo right about the CYA memos in the files, I'm sure.  But who's really going to make a big stink when they, along with everybody else including the secretaries, is getting rich?

    Other than the ratings agencies, I doubt anybody's going to find much actual outright criminal fraud.

    What the heck's a "quant"?


    Parent

    Quant..... (none / 0) (#117)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 08:28:35 AM EST
    is a quantitative analyst. They do the mathematical modeling needed for pricing, structure, etc of financial products and they are responsible for all the financial engineering you saw coming out of Wall St. Most of the ones here on Wall St have PhDs in Mathematics or Physics.

    Parent
    Gotcha. Thanks! (none / 0) (#125)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:28:16 AM EST
    Skipped dinner with the Canadians (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:13:55 PM EST
    I just heard on the news that Obama declined a dinner invitation in Canada after his visit with the PM because he didn't want the pictures of it coming back to the US. They actually said he didn't want people here to see him having dinner when they are suffering so much at home! He's hosting weekly cocktail parties, but doesn't want us to see him eating dinner.

    Is there anyone who resents him having dinner with the leaders he meets with? He really gives us credit for nothing...except maybe the deep recession that he says is going to take a very long time to climb out of.


    That sounds way too clumsy to me. (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by EL seattle on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:37:12 PM EST
    If the Obama folks wanted to cut things short, I'm sure they could have come up with a much better excuse.  (Maybe something about the kids and school or time with the kids, or keeping and eye on that wild and crazy veep, etc.)

    But maybe they're serious.  Maybe they've furloughed their private chef back to only a couple of days a week.  Maybe Tuesdays are now "Leftover Night" at the White House, and Thursdays are "Spaghetti Night."  It would save some money, I'm sure.

    Parent

    but it's OK for him to use Air Force One at (4.00 / 3) (#113)
    by suzieg on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 05:04:46 AM EST
    $69,000 a hour to fly to both Denver and Phoenix for his photo-ops.....

    Parent
    Do You REALLY Believe (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by daring grace on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:54:10 AM EST
    in the extreme emergency of the economic times we're living in that the president going to sign bills outside Washington among citizens is merely a political action? Really?

    I feel nothing but contempt for Bush's presidency but his trip to Manhattan after 9/11 seemed entirely appropriate and necessary for the country to see our leader engaged and on site where our fears/misery are. Obama traveling around the country and speaking directly to people in their own neighborhoods at a time like this seems to me like the same thing.

    Not to mention he finally was doing something to effectively stifle the Repub drumbeat against his policies--which is a political purpose I can really get behind.

    Parent

    But, is he getting into their neighborhoods (none / 0) (#138)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 04:14:09 PM EST
    or is he making the people come to him?

    He is not out surveying the neighborhoods to see the damage this economy has done to the lives of Americans.


    Parent

    He's Being the President (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by daring grace on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 04:39:20 PM EST
    I suppose he could go out and survey the actual neighborhoods where the housing and unemployment crises are most rampant.

    But you know there are already people who criticize him for doing the small amount of travel and public interaction he is doing now.

    I think he's trying to strike a balance point between what he's needed in Washington for and what he can achieve--morale wise and symbolically as a leader by coming out into the country beyond the beltway.

    So far, in terms of the public, there seems to be approval for this.

    Parent

    Canadians were the ones hosting (none / 0) (#114)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 07:35:35 AM EST
    it was their invitation to join them that he declined. We would have heard if he was cutting back on the perks of his new red carpet ride. The perks are on the rise for him and his family here at home.


    Parent
    Can't Imagine Where You Heard That (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by daring grace on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:46:37 AM EST
    and would love a link or something because every single news story I heard about this trip focused on how brief it was going to be--that he would be back in Washington by dinner time.

    None of them went on to explain that was because the president refused a dinner invitation from the Canadians.

    Parent

    Durbin makes a statement (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:55:13 PM EST
    on Burris:

    "When we met with Roland Burris in January, we made it clear that in order for him to be seated in the U.S. Senate he needed to meet two requirements - first, that he submit the proper paperwork certifying his appointment, and second, that he appear before the General Assembly's Impeachment Committee to testify openly, honestly and completely about the nature of his relationship with the former governor, his associates and the circumstances surrounding this appointment."

    "We asked him to testify in the impeachment proceedings, not to embarrass Roland Burris, but to give him an opportunity to clear the air regarding this appointment from a tainted governor. Our hope was that he would use that opportunity to assure the people of Illinois and the other members of the United States Senate that he was not involved in any wrongdoing."

    "Now the accuracy and completeness of his testimony and affidavits have been called into serious question. Every day there are more and more revelations about contacts with Blagojevich advisors, efforts at fundraising and omissions from his list of lobbying clients. This was not the full disclosure under oath that we asked for."

    "These news reports and the public statements by Roland Burris himself are troubling and raise serious questions which need to be looked at very carefully."

    "The State's Attorney in Sangamon County is reviewing the affidavit and other materials associated with Senator Burris' testimony to see if criminal charges are warranted and the U.S. Senate Ethics Committee has begun a preliminary investigation into this matter."

    "This is the appropriate course of action and I await the outcome of those investigations. The people of Illinois deserve nothing less."


    Weak tea IMO.

    Weak tea? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Steve M on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:06:02 PM EST
    I think you'll find it's pretty darn rare for a Senator to make that sort of statement about a Senator from his own party, let alone one from the same State.

    Parent
    Well, I'm talking about my own standards (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:08:33 PM EST
    not what you would expect from a Senator.

    And this is in the context of the caucus's original letter to Blagojevich, which was stronger.

    Parent

    Barbara Boxer chairs the Senate (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:58:32 PM EST
    Ethics Committee.  Stay tuned.

    Parent
    The Democrats will lose this one (none / 0) (#5)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:06:21 PM EST
    Whether they vote to expel him or whether they do nothing, they look stupid.  The more they keep making statements like this, the dumber they look.

    Parent
    I'm perplexed. (none / 0) (#8)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:10:18 PM EST
    I just keep wondering, what was Burris thinking?

    Parent
    He was thinking (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by lentinel on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:27:30 PM EST
    that he wanted to be Senator. He wanted to add that trophy to the wall in his mausoleum. And now he can.

    Parent
    set for life (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by jedimom on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:28:42 PM EST
    he  gets the pension for life now no matter what i believe.....

    Parent
    Murder (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:56:23 PM EST
    North Dakota legislature just voted to give the rights of a fertilized egg the full rights of a human being. Sounds like anyone in prison there who is pregnant needs to be released today.

    The legislation would have the effect of banning abortion in North Dakota.

    Representatives approved the measure 51-41. It now goes to the North Dakota Senate.

    The measure says North Dakota law and the state constitution should consider anything with a single human cell as a human being, with the rights that a human being has.

    msnbc

    They're just determined, aren't they? (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:11:31 PM EST
    If a single human cell has rights, what on earth will ND do about that dry, flaky skin people get in those fierce winters?  Will balding men be subject to arrest for losing their hair?  

    This is beyond ludicrous; it's insane.

    And it sounds like a collateral effect would be the creation of a jobs program for lawyers and guardians ad litem.

    Parent

    And not to be crass (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:19:42 PM EST
    But would "being the master of your own domain" also become illegal?  Lots of single human cells there.

    Parent
    Uh, I think the penalty would be for (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:26:34 PM EST
    not being the master of your domain, lol.

    Parent
    Doesn't this mean that a zygote (none / 0) (#78)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:51:16 PM EST
    would now come under the auspices of Child Protective Services?

    If so, it would mean that at the point of fertilization the zygote has a right to be 'protected' from a mother who engages in any perceptibly risky behavior; including occupations like law enforcement or serving in the military.

    Meaning, if it would be child endangerment to take one's kid into a gun fight, wouldn't that also now pertain to a zygote inutero.  

    Parent

    And acorns would be protected (none / 0) (#89)
    by BernieO on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:50:38 PM EST
    under tree ordinances.

    Parent
    I wonder (none / 0) (#59)
    by CST on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:30:05 PM EST
    If they'll start sending people to jail over miscarriages.

    You know, call it "neglect" or something.


    Parent

    Didn't they jail some poor (none / 0) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:40:18 PM EST
    woman who was latino and took something that promoted miscarriage that she was able to obtain across the border when she did miscarry in Georgia or something.

    Parent
    Gah (none / 0) (#72)
    by CST on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:45:48 PM EST
    I didn't hear of that.

    That's disgusting...

    How do people even find out about that???

    Parent

    She told a neighbor about it (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:57:01 PM EST
    I really had to dig to find it.  Feels like something is trying to bury it.  It wasn't Georgia though.  It was South Carolina.

    Parent
    There are at least a few (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Fabian on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 04:42:38 AM EST
    common prescription meds that can be used to attempt an abortion, plus some natural substances like pennyroyal oil.  Some of them are toxic and none of them are 100% successful.

    In the worst case scenario, you can not only fail to abort, but you can do yourself some serious damage in the attempt.  Pennyroyal in particular can do liver and kidney damage which can be fatal.

    Miscarriages, spontaneous abortions and induced abortions can all have serious complications.  The pennyroyal link I looked up was the forensic report on a woman who attempted to to induce abortion when she had an ectopic pregnancy.  She had sepsis caused by the ruptured ectopic pregnancy and liver and kidney damage from the pennyroyal oil.  

    It doesn't take a coat hanger - fear and ignorance work just as well.

    Parent

    So this is what freedom looks like... (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:21:09 PM EST
    Link  Of course, the NY Daily News paints it like the worst thing ever...sounds pretty damned good to me:)

    Steroids are bad... (none / 0) (#93)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:32:45 PM EST
    ...mmmkay.  Farmacias are very interesting though.  

    Did you catch A-roids "we were just being stupid and didn't know what it was" excuse?  Epic fail.

    That said, I'm ready for the partay that is Opening Day at Coors Field.  One good thing about the Rockies--you know they ain't juicing by the way they play.  

    Parent

    Yeah Brother... (none / 0) (#105)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 08:53:42 PM EST
    it's that time again, spring fever...I can't believe Manny isn't signed...are teams worried about dough?  Or more pressing in my case, are the Wilpons worried about dough since Madoff got 'em good?...)

    I've got a new ballpark to go whose name I shall not utter, I guess I'll call it Shea...I've got half a mind to boycott the joint but they've got me, and there are things banks can never own.

    Parent

    Shoot... (none / 0) (#106)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 09:32:09 PM EST
    ...at least you still have some big names.  Our tight-fisted owners dumped our only star (Holliday) and we're left with Todd Helton, who hasn't been Todd Helton in years.  

    Last I heard SF was leading the Mannystakes?  Being the defensive liability that he is, I think he'd be a better fit DH'ing in the Junior League.  

    I hope Griffey has a good year for the Mariners.  Mom would enjoy going to a play-off game.

    Shea's got a nice ring to it.  Nobody out here calls Mile High by its corporate name.  

    Parent

    I should not complain... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 08:23:32 AM EST
    with our payroll, no doubt.

    Manny would be a great fit here, Minaya has always drooled over him.  He can bring a folding chair with him out to left field for all I care as long as he does his 300/30/130 thing...Beltran covers a lot of ground:)

    Ya never know...maybe the kids will strike fire in the Rockies and take you on a fun ride this season.

    Parent

    Watching Canada's PM (none / 0) (#16)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:30:23 PM EST
    who is speaking, with Obama -- I find it unsettling that every time I look at the screen, I see . . . Dan Quayle!  Is it just me, or is the Canadian PM a clone with that clean and boyish look?

    Of course, as soon as I listen, I can tell the difference.:-)

    Harper has a minority government in Canada (none / 0) (#38)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:41:51 PM EST
    so, Canadians don't much like him either. There may be another election this spring.

    Parent
    Annnndddd...The Chcago Way continues (none / 0) (#18)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:33:37 PM EST
    Really?

    Gov. Pat Quinn on Wednesday installed as his chief operating officer an appointee of ousted predecessor Rod Blagojevich who also has close ties to convicted fundraiser Antoin "Tony" Rezko.

    The decision to name longtime friend Jack Lavin as one of his top aides raised eyebrows with some who said it might send a message of politics as usual in Illinois.

    "Certainly he comes with some baggage that we have to be very sensitive about at this moment in our state's history, but personally I want to work with everyone right now to make sure we get through the very serious problems we're facing," said Senate Republican Leader Christine Radogno of Lemont. "I can only hope the governor has fully vetted his association and knows full well that they won't in any way, shape or form interfere."

    Lavin served as Blagojevich's director of the Department of Commerce and Economic Opportunity after Rezko recommended Lavin for the post. Lavin once worked as the chief financial officer for Rezko's food-related business and took more than $12,000 in donations from Rezko's firm while toying with a run for elected office in 2001.

    Quinn spokesman would not comment on Lavin's ties to Blagojevich and Rezko, but said the governor has "the utmost confidence in him."

    Lavin worked with Quinn after Quinn won the state treasurer's position in 1990. His new duties include overseeing the distribution of federal stimulus dollars.



    FBI checked out Jack Valenti (none / 0) (#88)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:10:17 PM EST
    Specifically, his se_xuality

    When Beltway insider Jack Valenti died two years ago at age 85, he was playing the role of intermediary between Washington and Hollywood as the theatrical, snowy-haired president of the Motion Picture Association of America.

    But back in 1964, Valenti was a Houston ad executive newly installed at the White House as a top aide to President Lyndon B. Johnson. And J. Edgar Hoover's FBI found itself quietly consumed with the vexing question of whether Valenti was gay.

    Previously confidential FBI files show that Hoover's deputies set out to determine whether Valenti, who had married two years earlier, maintained a relationship with a male commercial photographer. Republican Party operatives reportedly were pursuing a parallel investigation with the help of a retired FBI agent, bureau files show. No proof was ever found, but the files, obtained by The Washington Post under the federal Freedom of Information Act, provide further insight into the conduct of the FBI under Hoover, for whom damaging personal information on the powerful was a useful tool in his interactions with presidents from Franklin D. Roosevelt to Richard M. Nixon

    Ironic, since Hoover was very insecure about his own se_xualtiy.

    But here's some interesting info:

    Even Bill Moyers, a White House aide now best known as a liberal television commentator, is described in the records as seeking information on the sexual preferences of White House staff members. Moyers said by e-mail yesterday that his memory is unclear after so many years but that he may have been simply looking for details of allegations first brought to the president by Hoover.


    Jeez - the Dow opens down and (none / 0) (#120)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 08:57:19 AM EST
    is going to roller coaster all day...again.

    There seems to be a ton of anger among ordinary people, and also on Wall Street, about Obama's housing bill.  Maybe it's a function of homeowners being last on the list after the bailout of AIG and Fannie & Freddie, the two TARPs to aid other financial institutions that contributed to the conditions for the blow-up, and the auto industry assistance.

    On one level, some people do seem to understand that these institutions need to be stabilized if the economy is going to stop the free-fall, and that the mortgage/foreclosure crisis is a piece of that, but on another level, it's really hard for people who didn't go to that party - the one with no documentation loans, and 0% down, and a chance to treat one's home like an unlimited bank account - not to feel some anger and resentment at the gargantuan amount of assistance being given to people and institutions that made irresponsible and bad decisions.

    More banks will quietly fail today; I don't think there has been a Friday in weeks that one or more banks have not been taken over by our friends in the government.

    No wonder people are spending more money at the movies...anything to escape the growing feeling of dread that we have not yet seen how bad it is going to get.


    The market roller coaster is (none / 0) (#121)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:05:29 AM EST
    going to be a little more controlled for most of the day.... options expire today. I can't speak for the last hour of trading though.

    Parent
    that would be (none / 0) (#122)
    by CoralGables on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:09:43 AM EST
    five straight weeks, and yes Friday is the day the Banks go down. There was a several week bank failure break over the holidays but for the last five Fridays it has been consistent with 13 total closings over the 5 weeks, all going down on Friday.

    Parent
    Friday.... (none / 0) (#124)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:25:08 AM EST
    It gives investors time over the weekend to get their panic under control!

    Parent
    And I think it keeps those (none / 0) (#127)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:34:47 AM EST
    who are not investors/depositors in the failed banks from being aware enough of it to panic and start taking money out of banks that are not in trouble.

    Honestly, though, interest rates are so low, whatever people have on deposit at the bank might be faring just as well in the mattress/piggybank/home safe.

    Parent

    The Trillion Dollar Key (none / 0) (#128)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 09:47:35 AM EST
    Is this something anyone knew was in the works?  Maybe someone who has more knowledge than I do can explain if this is something we should be concerned about, pleased about, relieved about, taking to the streets over (emphasis is mine).

    Most banks no longer hold the loans they make, content to collect interest until the debt comes due. Instead, the loans are bundled into securities that are sold to investors, a process known as securitization.

    But the securitization markets broke down last summer after investors suffered steep losses on these investments. So banks and other finance companies can no longer shift loans off their books easily, throttling their ability to lend.

    The result has been a drastic contraction of the amount of credit available throughout the economy. By one estimate, as much as $1.9 trillion of lending capacity -- the rough equivalent of half of all the money borrowed by businesses and consumers in 2007, before the recession struck -- has been sucked out of the system.

    Banking chiefs, who have come under sharp criticism for not making more loans even as they have accepted billions of taxpayer dollars to prop themselves up, say it is the markets, not the banks, that are squeezing American borrowers.

    The Obama administration hopes to jump-start this crucial machinery by effectively subsidizing the profits of big private investment firms in the bond markets. The Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve plan to spend as much as $1 trillion to provide low-cost loans and guarantees to hedge funds and private equity firms that buy securities backed by consumer and business loans.

    The Fed is expected to start the first phase of the program, which will provide $200 billion in loans to investors, in early March.


    It may be exactly what's needed, but don't you think all people will see is that the government is going to subsidize the profits of these big firms - the same ones that were paying out huge bonuses - while more and more Americans are in dire straits?


    Investor.... (none / 0) (#129)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:11:22 AM EST
    is a synomym of gambler, or risk-taker...if we are gonna start subsidizing gamblers, I want my buy-in to this years WSOP federally subsidized:)

    I believe it was Doestevsky who said "There are two joys of gambling, the joy of winning and the joy of losing".  These clowns need to learn to appreciate the joy of losing.

    Parent

    I don't know all the details of this plan..... (none / 0) (#132)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:41:27 AM EST
    and it might not seem like the right thing to subsidize the profits of the big firms but right now our options are limited.

    If I am sitting on a pile of money right now I am going to be very hesitant to lend in this climate at the same time I want to earn reasonable interest on that money. So if someone says to me if you lend that money out (with the potential to earn 10% interest) I will guarantee that should something go wrong I will ensure that I will make you whole for your capital + 2% interest, then I will definitely take that chance. So right now we need to sweeten the pie for the people who have the cash!

    Parent

    Oops..sweeten the pot (not pie) (none / 0) (#134)
    by vml68 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 10:49:48 AM EST