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Saturday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:10:43 AM EST
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It's 70 degrees and sunny, time to head outdoors.

What's going on in your neck of the woods? This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

BTD - Read this from Glenn Greenwald on the value of public anger. An excellent piece.

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    Saturday Open Thread | 133 comments (133 topical)

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    Auburn and Florida (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:22:18 AM EST
    are still in the little dance... one win away from Madison Square Garden, baby!

    And both games (none / 0) (#83)
    by CoralGables on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 09:24:50 PM EST
    are on ESPN Tuesday night so we can root both to victory, and onto the Faux Four.

    Parent
    For MTracy and Fabian (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:31:49 AM EST
    and others who think that the comment was not a "big nothing," my local Sunday paper's editorial page gets it:  No One's Laughing.

    Cream, MT, and Fabian (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by jbindc on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:40:48 AM EST
    and anyone else who's interested...

    Ban the R-Word

    Parent

    Thanks -- and this: March 31 (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:55:41 AM EST
    will be a "national day of awareness," thanks to the generation of my child with a disability -- and she is sharing it with others in her classes who are studying to be special-needs teachers, too.  So I hear that, here in the bowling capital of the country -- where she has bowled for Camp Heartland (and worked and marched for many other causes, not just her own, because of the blessing of empathy gained by growing up going so often to our children's hospital) -- there is talk of a "bowling for awareness" event.:-)  

    Parent
    As trite and simple as it sounds, (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Anne on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 09:29:15 PM EST
    people need to treat others with the same respect with which they would like to be treated, and they need to understand that disparaging and demeaning comments are no less so just because those about whom they are being said are not present to hear them - and the absence of those people doesn't make the comments funny.

    Have we all been guilty of being mean and petty and politically incorrect?  I'm pretty sure we have; but most of us, I hope, probably aren't particularly proud of having stooped to those levels.

    I guess what bothers me about what Obama thought was a throw-away line that people would find funny is that it came from a man who is a father.  A man who has been blessed with two healthy, normal children who have all the advantages it is possible to give them.  What parent has not worried and feared for their child's health, hoped and prayed they would be "normal?"  And what parent does not understand that, there but for the grace of God, the great good fortune of having a normal, healthy child might not be?

    How could he not know the pain such a remark would deliver to the hearts of so many parents whose children have faced challenges and met so many of those challenges with courage and grace and strength?  How could he not understand that their children are not objects meant to make others feel better about themselves, not meant to be reduced to jokes?

    That's what I don't get.  How does he not know these essential truths?  

    Does he chide his children when they look clumsy or awkward that maybe they should join the Special Olympics?  Because I have to say that the ease with which he tossed off that line made me wonder when and where else it has been trotted out.

    And I really hate to think it's part of the Obama family sense of humor.

    Parent

    I fear that you are right, (4.00 / 3) (#111)
    by BrassTacks on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:37:19 PM EST
    This was not the first time he made this ''joke''.   It must be common in his world, for it to have been such a spontaneous utterance.  Sickening.  

    Parent
    Really (none / 0) (#106)
    by MrConservative on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:05:33 PM EST
    I make off color comments far worse than that all the time.  But I'm not a public figure.  I'd never, for instance, make a harsh crack about Christians in front of any of my Christian friends.  And, of course, a public figure choosing to make an off-color comment is going in front of all the minorities in the world.  It's just bizarre that it would go through his head that this was an appropriate thing for the president to say.  I still support him, I just hope he realizes what he did wrong.

    It's not just about being politically correct.  There's a difference between being needlessly politically correct to the point of avoiding reason, and just having common decency.

    Parent

    He must say it so often, (3.00 / 2) (#113)
    by BrassTacks on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:43:08 PM EST
    That he didn't even think about it.  What else could it be?  

    Parent
    Have you (none / 0) (#126)
    by eric on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 03:07:47 AM EST
    never been in a high stress situation and said something that you would not have otherwise said?  I know I have.  I remember one time, in college, saying something really, really bad that I would not otherwise say, but because I was on the spot.  It was almost as if my mind froze and I became someone else.  It wasn't something I ever said before.

    Parent
    Oh geeze . . . (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 03:32:47 AM EST
    if the stress of being on Leno causes an issue for our new President . . . we're up the creek. {head meet desk}

    Parent
    This defense would be funny, huh? (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 08:29:23 AM EST
    If it weren't so sad.  And worrisome, if true, that going on teevee is too much harrrrrd worrrrrk. . . .

    Parent
    With all due respect... (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by kdog on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:01:42 PM EST
    to those with disabilities, I don't get down with banning words.

    Words do not harm, people and the context they use words in do.  There is nothing inherently wrong with any word in our language, only in how they are sometimes used.

    Parent

    With due respect, read the link (5.00 / 6) (#14)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:12:03 PM EST
    which says that the campaign is, as you say, "to eliminate the demeaning use of the r-word."  To quote Obama:  
    "'Just words'?  Don't tell me words don't matter."


    Parent
    Words are only demeaning... (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 03:45:33 PM EST
    ...if you give someone else the power for them to be.  Like the word "liberal".  Somehow, we've allowed it to become some sort of insult.

    When someone tries to insult me, I'll be damned if they're going to get the satisfaction of it affecting me as such.  

    Parent

    Many Demeaning Words (5.00 / 5) (#54)
    by daring grace on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:28:53 PM EST
    were once in 'proper' and even in clinical usage.

    Horrifying to realize this now just as it's horrifying to learn how the disabled have been treated down through the centuries.

    I had a great aunt who was taken from her family in 1913 by the county because she was deemed to difficult for her mother to raise. The county shipped her off to (I'm afraid I'm not kidding): the Rome State Asylum for Unteachable Idiots

    snip: "In 1893, New York state purchased the former Oneida County Poorhouse and converted it into the Rome Custodial Asylum for Unteachable Idiots, with locked doors and iron gates, designed for the non-educable retarded. ("Idiot" was a technical term in those days, denoting the most severely retarded. It soon fell into disfavor as pejorative, and the facility was renamed the Rome State School in 1919.) Rome was the first state institution of this type, and served the entire state until similar institutions were established at other locations."

    I came to know my aunt before her very hard death from cancer when I was about eight. And, I don't know how she presented as a child, but through the eyes of THIS child, she was lovely. I remember her holding me in her lap and reading my storybooks to me. My older brother who would have been about 15 recalls her coming out on the basketball court with his friends and him and shooting hoops.

    She was institutionalized her entire life and I only came to know her because my mother, her nephew's wife, insisted she come to our house for Sunday dinner several times a year when no one in her own family would have much to do with her.

    Some day I'll inherit this set of steak knives with faux bone handles she bought at Woolworth's and presented to our family when she came for Christmas one year. My mother cherishes them and has constantly reminded me how little Aunt Viola had and how much she must have had to save to buy them.

    Parent

    DGrace, your story (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:18:11 PM EST
    of your aunt is like that of an uncle of mine -- those horrors happened across the country.  The name of the institution here was not as awful, but close: the "Home for the Feeble-Minded."  And he was put there at birth more than a decade after your aunt -- and not because he actually was "feeble-minded."  He had a cleft palate! so easily fixed today.  But it was presumed then that it meant he was mentally impaired.  And my grandmother died in childbirth -- in another trauma so easily avoided today -- so my grandfather was too distraught, we were told, to know what to do, and with five other children, too.  He had to do all he could, in the Depression, to keep them all from being put out to adoption.

    My uncle's story was not as sad as that of your aunt, in that when he turned 21, he was turned out by the state -- but with little schooling and not training, since he was supposedly "feeble-minded."  And none of his siblings even knew of his existence, as my grandfather was so shamed to have given up his child.  So the eldest sibling, my father, got a call out of the blue from the state to take over the care of his brother whom he never even knew existed.  Can you imagine?

    But my parents took him in and gave us a great example.  With many mouths to feed, too, they took on extra jobs to get my uncle plastic surgery, as the cleft palate had been so badly bungled.  They got him a job on a farm, as that was all he knew -- and then we watched as he soon schooled himself . . . and the tragic thing to see was that he actually was quite intelligent, an amazingly fast learner.  I taught him the game of checkers just once, and I never beat him again.  He borrowed our books and soon moved past our grade-school level, getting a library card and consuming every book that he could.

    But it was like Flowers for Algernon.  The more that he realized what had been done to him, the more he hurt and never really could recover.  The details of his decline are so sad.  He lived an unhappy life in the end, as he had at the start.  He disappeared for years at a time -- and the last time, with my parents long gone, we finally were found only to give him a funeral.

    It was a sad but beautiful service in a church downtown in our city, and as it turned out, it was a church that often took in the homeless, as my uncle had been.  We found out about that when, as we took turns talking about him, one homeless man after another quietly came in and took places in the pews -- and came up afterward to talk with us.  To this day, we make an annual donation to that church for them on my uncle's birthday.

    Anyway, this is a long way around to thanking you for your story.  I still am finding out how sadly often these awful stories happened in a time not that long ago, as I also often find out how much ignorance there still is about disabilities.  My uncle's institution also was, as the link says, where people with seizure disorders were put for years, even their lifetimes.  Today, that would mean institutionalizing Senator Kennedy and the Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. . . .

    Parent

    Oh, DaringGrace (none / 0) (#75)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:36:19 PM EST
    what a sad story.  It reminds me a little of Rosemary Kennedy, who was lobotomized and then institutionalized when she reached adolescence and her normal hormones began to kick up and make her "difficult."  It happened to so many in that era.

    I used to sometimes go birdwatching around a long-closed and essentially abandoned state mental hospital, and one day stumbled on a little cemetery in an out-of-the-way place.  Little stone markers for every grave, but with numbers only, no names, so as not to shame the families, presumably.  So sad to think of the human beings treated that way.

    Your childish high spirits and natural friendliness probably meant a very great deal to your great-aunt, as well as your mother's dinner invitations.


    Parent

    Again, the great speaker (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:37:02 PM EST
    has spoken on the power of a receiver of words "just spoken":

    "Just speeches?  It's true that speeches don't solve all problems, but what is also true is that if we can't inspire the country to believe again, then it doesn't matter how many plans and policies we have."

    I'm happy for you that you have the strength to withstand the power of the sender's words, but a lot of people are disagreeing and saying it hurt them -- so I listen to them, too.  

    But I'm sorry that you don't agree with the president that he has learned from this. He has the chance to inspire again, and on this issue, and I'm betting that he will take it on March 31.  And his mistake, as his office imputes, may have impact on his policies and plans.  I do hope that you may benefit from those, anyway.

    Parent

    Demeaning Language (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 04:37:21 PM EST
    Has to do with intent. I see no difference between calling someone a retard, moron, idiot, or empty suit.  When the terms are meant to insult someone it is demeaning. When it is used to describe someone who has an IQ of below 70 it need not be demeaning at all, it is descriptive. Best to ask the person who has the diagnosis if they are being mistreated or demeaned.

    Parent
    Sure, use 'em all (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 02:33:15 PM EST
    but use them at your possible peril. And remember that some words were coined right from beginning with the intention of scapegoating whole swathes of humanity and continue to carry that conotation.

    But ultimately, you cant legislate decency and sensitivity, particularly when the economy depends on and encourages an impulsive, adolescent mindset.


    Parent

    Absolutely.... (none / 0) (#130)
    by kdog on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 11:36:47 AM EST
    we're all responsible for what comes out of our mouths, and we should be kind and considerate to each other.  I don't see banning words getting us there...in fact I think it might hurt. My mind jumps to artistic expression when people talk about banning words....Lenny Bruce used 'em all man. Or how 'bout Patty Smith?

    Poets, Lyricists, Comedians...words are their paint or their clay...may as well tell a painter they can't use red.

    Parent

    Adults can deal with their Faux Pas (5.00 / 8) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:34:42 PM EST
    or they can grow up and deal with their Faux Pas.  It isn't like everyone doesn't do them, to dismiss them invites too much B.S.  Here, I'll even help Obama, I'll go first.  I've enjoyed excellent health and was living in the upper percentiles in just about everything society measured before my son came along.  I was so self absorbed that I didn't understand that almost EVERYONE with muscular dystrophy is living on borrowed time.  When we found out what my son had I was told that it was a rare distal form of M.D. and they wanted us to begin to attend the Muscle Clinics at Denver Childrens.  I was also told it was static, that he wouldn't die from it was all I heard......that it wasn't fatal.  The second time at muscle clinic though I've had enough.  I see groups of doctors huddled outside  of the different rooms and they look so serious.....deeply serious and concerned about the patient in the room.  When they get to our room they just lighten up or something, like what we are dealing with isn't that important.  So the doctors all gather in the room and start to share their observations with me and I tell them they seem very unconcerned about the wellbeing of my child compared to all the others.  The lead physician looked at his shoes and he was genuinely sincere in his apology because as a physician he was caught getting emotionally involved.  He told me that he was sorry, that all of the other children at the clinic were dealing with a death sentence of sorts and my son was the only one there that they would see grow up and it was hard to be not feel a little excited about that. I'm still trying to deal with what an uneducated a$$ I can be.

    Parent
    My friend (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by Steve M on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:31:40 PM EST
    who has an autistic daughter says that self-pity is virtually impossible, because no matter what there is always someone who has it worse.

    Parent
    And, my friends with special needs children (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:46:19 PM EST
    consider themselves blessed with an angel. What our children teach us is beyond measure. I see some really incredible people in the commenters who have talked about their personal experiences.

    Parent
    Mine gave me so many gifts (4.42 / 7) (#34)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:51:52 PM EST
    and not in the least that she made me a much better teacher, learning about learning disabilities just for a start -- and so much more in my teaching.  (Just for a start, I learned to restructure my grading to put much more weight on work throughout a semester than on a few hours of tests.)

    But I'll be the first to say that mine is no angel.  She's such a fighter!  And that example taught me, too, as she learned to fight for the right things.

    Parent

    Perfectly put. (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:46:32 PM EST
    And it sounds like what MileHi was saying here yesterday.

    Also reminds me of my child, feeling sorry for herself after her diagnosis -- until we walked back into the children's hospital for the next visit.  She saw all the kids in wheelchairs . . . and realized that she could walk.  And after that, she always wanted to walk in there early, so that she could sit down and talk and read to and play games with so many incredible kids who gave her the gift of empathy.

    Shared that with a friend then who was fed up with her wonderfully healthy and smart kid's whining.  So when he wanted to do service credit for school, she suggested the children's hospital.  He still is a volunteer there, too.

    Parent

    To: Cream City (4.55 / 9) (#46)
    by christinep on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    Your daughter is truly a gift. What a wonderful attitude and understanding that can elude so many much older and not-so-much wiser. I suspect her parents also had a significant role in alerting her to that life-giving empathy. Thank you for the comment.

    Parent
    Self-pity is impossible to escape. (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 03:34:49 PM EST
    It will find you and it will try to sap your energy and resolve.  But, if you put things into the perspective that there is always someone worse off than you, then its a little easier to deal with.  

    That perspective helped me (and my family) get through many a dark, dark day.  It still rings true today as new problems and struggles emerge.  

    It goes hand-in-hand with somehow finding the strength to keep fighting, to keep going forward one day at a time.  

    Parent

    Right there with you (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:45:16 PM EST
    The president recognized his gaffe almost immediately, and profuse apology soon followed. But such apologies are rote in these instances.

    The use of "gaffe" irritates me to no end. It wasn't a gaffe, it was an outright insult. Betting that people who have spent social time on the golf course, basketball court, etc. with Obama have heard him use this reference before. Or, laughed when others used it. He didn't just come up with the reference on the spot for the first time while sitting with Leno.

    I'm not aware of what Obama did during his campaigning that led people to see him as compassionate or in touch with ordinary people, though. He never showed himself as understanding the problems I face in employment discrimination, or rapidly approaching retirement years.

     

    Parent

    And rote apologies from spokespeople (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:52:22 PM EST
    do not suffice, nor does a call to a member of the Kennedy clan (bless them for starting the Special Olympics).

    Interesting the switch in that sentence to the passive voice, huh?  From Obama in the active voice to "apology" (not from Obama to all of the people with disabilities, athletic or otherwise, not just to a program's director) "soon followed."

    I will be watching for words that matter, and from him, on March 31.

    Parent

    So true (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:09:25 PM EST
    Whatever made Tim Shriver think that his personal acceptance of Obama's apology would be meaningful to the millions who were justifiably insulted is something I don't grasp.

    Obama believed his comment would yield him a high five and a major laugh from Leno and the audience, because he is of the belief that ordinary people use that reference all the time. They don't in my circle, and I'm betting they don't in yours. Then, we are in touch with ordinary people and the realities of life.

    I've never expected the gov't to address all the challenges in my life. I didn't celebrate the Obama victory thinking I would never again have to worry about my mortgage or rent payments. In fact, since he took office, my worrying about that particular problem has doubled.

    Parent

    So what course of action... (none / 0) (#35)
    by Thanin on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 02:20:47 PM EST
    would repair the damage?  Or are the next 4/8 years irrevocably ruined because of this?

    Parent
    How he apologizes (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 02:29:46 PM EST
    is the topic. But, you go ahead and expand it as much as you want to amuse yourself.

    Obviously, all the people in your life have no flaws that bother you.

    Parent

    The real point is... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Thanin on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 02:39:16 PM EST
    all the people in everyones life has flaws.  Havent you said something you regretted later?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 02:47:24 PM EST
    for what its worth, Im guessing some of these are the same folk who have just started to recover from those primary eye rolls, coughs and shoulder brushes.

    Parent
    If This Is Recovery (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 02:49:40 PM EST
    Then the program is obviously not working.

    Parent
    Thanks. (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Fabian on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:00:46 PM EST
    Much appreciated.

    I think the part that bugs me the most is that the comment was intended to get a laugh - and it did.  I'd much rather it got a chilly silence.  That way it would just be on Obama.

    Parent

    Why The Hate? (1.00 / 1) (#57)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:32:53 PM EST
    I disagree that "such apologies are rote in these instances." Clearly Obama has become aware that he unintentionally offended some people. Many in the same position, as we saw in the Macaca moment, go into denial and brush off any criticisms as overreacting. That is the typical response we have seen from most politicians, not an immediate apology and taking the blame for being insensitive.

    Kolan McConiughey, according to TMZ, "is a Special Olympics competitor who has bowled three perfect 300 games, tells TMZ that the Prez has to score a lot higher than 129 to beat him. Kolan says he bowls an average of 266.

    "Kolan -- who works at a grocery store in Ann Arbor, Mich. -- said he'd love to go to the White House to beat Barack on his own lane. Kolan said, 'He's cool, but he can't beat me.'"

    Doesn't sound like Kolan was in the slightest bit offended. And it appears that Obama will invite him or others like him to the WH to get some tips on the game.

    Hardly a response from someone who harbors disgust for the disabled.

    Tim Maloney, a 38-year-old with Down Syndrome who has been bowling for 30 years, said the president needs to practice more if he wants to bring his recent score of 129 anywhere close to his average of 165.

    I would love to see some of these folks at the WH giving Obama tips on how to be a better bowler.

    Parent

    Good on them. (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Fabian on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:01:57 PM EST
    I hope they get to go on the Tonight Show and make cracks about Obama and the audience laughs along with them.

    Parent
    In My Experience (none / 0) (#64)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:07:53 PM EST
    It is usually the parents of the kids with disabilities who harbor all the anger. The kids would have a great time playing with Obama, and Leno, imo.

    Although some parents would try to coach their kids to say something mean.

    Many of these parents could take a few lessons from their kids.

    Parent

    Anger? (5.00 / 4) (#66)
    by Fabian on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:30:00 PM EST
    Possibly.  When your child has to deal with life long difficulties, it seems even more unfair that they'll have to deal with people's ignorance about them as well.  You can actually do something about the ignorance, the prejudice, the jokes and it will help not just your child, but every other person with similar problems.

    It may start out personal, but when you realize it's not just you and someone you know, but a lot of other people and their families, it becomes less personal and more principle.  

    Parent

    Yes (3.00 / 2) (#67)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:36:15 PM EST
    And that is the part I do not understand. Obama has learned that his remarks offended you, apologized and has had his conciousness raised. That is a good thing. Most kids with disabilities, had they been offended or angered by Obama's remarks would forgive him in a second.

    Why hold on to the venom? Your objective has been reached. Learn from the children, they seem far ahead of the curve on this.

    Parent

    It's not Obama (none / 0) (#70)
    by Fabian on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:07:08 PM EST
    It's the people who laughed.  Ha ha - Special Olympics is funny.

    Everyone who laughed needs to be educated as well.  That's a lot of people who probably know almost nothing about Special Olympics.  A whole lotta ignorance.  

    Parent

    Ignore (4.00 / 4) (#99)
    by joanneleon on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:26:19 PM EST
    Fabian, this person is clearly never going to debate this honestly.  Looking through his/her comments, there are several statements about the parents of special needs kids that are really nasty and out of line.  I'm going to ignore this commenter from now on.  There's no chance for useful discussion, IMHO.

    Parent
    How Cowardly of YOu (none / 0) (#117)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:11:38 AM EST


    Parent
    I See (none / 0) (#110)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:25:09 PM EST
    They would not laugh at the special olympics, imo.

    Parent
    I think they feel like there is not much empathy (none / 0) (#105)
    by Amiss on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:56:11 PM EST
    coming from Obama, because he did not make a public apology, which I feel they deserve, honestly. Many of the learning disabled would not understand "his joke" but I am trying to see how I would feel if I had to walk a mile in either the parents or their child's shoes. Sometimes I feel that many public figures make light of things in our little middle income and poor lives that they themselves would never be able to handle with the grace that the "have nots" are able to do, because they lack that empathy.

    Parent
    Okay (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by joanneleon on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 09:54:33 PM EST
    Can I just interject here that there are times when, unless you've walked in someone's shoes, your opinion is worse than "unhelpful".  At those times, it's really better to just read and learn from the people who are speaking from experience.

    Parent
    My Point Exactly (none / 0) (#96)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:10:47 PM EST
    Thank you for backing me up.

    Parent
    Interesting how you only refer to kids (4.50 / 6) (#68)
    by nycstray on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:36:57 PM EST
    and talk about "playing" with Obama. Especially when above the 2 referenced by you are clearly adults . . . .

    As far as the parents go, well excuse them for being offended that the President of the United States sets such a lousy example at times. They wouldn't be the first to feel that way and I predict they won't be the last. They must be bitter? Or perhaps they cling a tad too much?


    Parent

    Adults With Disabilities Too (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:56:14 PM EST
    Kids meaning children of, not a reference to age. I have found that parents of kids (adults and children) with disabilities could learn something about forgiveness from their kids with disabilities.

    In general I have seen that hate, contempt, etc, seems to be more a tool of those without disabilities.

    Parent

    One has to wonder about the origins (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by nycstray on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:12:26 PM EST
    of all that hate and contempt you see. Does it stem from your desire to prove everyone wrong? That they have an ulterior motive, which of course is to slam Obama (He who does no wrong) at any cost?

    Seems like our dear friends the Shrivers are misguided here, wouldn't you say? They sound similar to some of the parents . . . .

    Still, Shriver said: "I think it's important to see that words hurt, and words do matter. And these words that in some respect can be seen as humiliating or a put-down to people with special needs do cause pain, and they do result in stereotypes."

    Shriver is the son of Eunice Kennedy-Shriver, who founded the Special Olympics and has championed the rights of the mentally disabled.

    His sister, Maria Shriver, wife of California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and a longtime Obama supporter, said laughing at the president's comments "hurts millions of people throughout the world."



    Parent
    Parents like the Axelrods (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:23:03 PM EST
    who are parents of a Special Olympian?  Who also didn't like Obama's comment?  Yeh, they hate him.

    Parent
    It Is Not About Liking (none / 0) (#93)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:09:12 PM EST
    Or not liking Obama's comment, it is the way he responded once becoming aware that he offended people, and it is the way people who were offended processed it.

    Most who are really advocating for disabled people have accepted Obama's apology others are using disabled people, and Obama's remark, as a way to push their own agenda against Obama.

    Parent

    What defies understanding is why (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by Anne on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:19:18 PM EST
    a 47 year old, Harvard-educated man of humble origins, who has seen more than a bit of the world, who has two children and who was involved with education to some extent, is only just now learning that there was anything wrong with what he said.

    Obama "unplugged" never fails to reveal things about himself that are very unattractive and unbecoming of someone who holds such a public position.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:48:53 PM EST
    We will call you ST Anne. Are you kidding? If not are you suggesting that Obama is an empty suit? Or that he makes fun of disabled people for sport. Like a racist would for a black person.

    Parent
    I'm suggesting that it's hard to believe (none / 0) (#134)
    by Anne on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 10:11:19 PM EST
    he didn't understand why what he said wasn't as amusing to others as it was to him.

    I've never claimed to be perfect, and am certainly nothing even close to a saint, lol.  I say all the time that I'm pretty sure I am going to burn in hell, but even I would have known better than to make light of my athletic skills by suggesting they would qualify me for the Special Olympics; is is wrong to expect the president to have had similar presence of mind and sensitivity?

    I don't think so - and I'm sorry you don't agree.

    Parent

    You Are More PC Than Obama (none / 0) (#135)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 10:28:00 PM EST
    No doubt, but it seems apparent to me that Obama quickly understood that he had offended people and moved to do damage control. You may have wanted a public apology, but for me he did the right thing. I am convinced that he has learned something.

    And I do believe that it is asking too much for anyone to have the sensitivity and similar frame of mind that you have or I have. People make mistakes and no matter how smart and successful they are they cannot be perfect. And that includes great leaders as well.

    What is important, imo, is that when someone puts their foot in their mouth, so to speak, that they recognize it and make amends. The greater person learns from the mistake, the lesser defends themselves and repeats the mistake.

    Parent

    OK (1.00 / 1) (#74)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:30:08 PM EST
    Hurts more parents of disabled than the disabled, imo. Is Shriver disabled?

    Oh and you forgot this part:

    "While I am confident that President Obama never intended to offend anyone, the response that his comments have caused, coupled with the reaction of a primetime audience, demonstrate the need to continue to educate the non-disabled community on the issues that confront those with a developmental disability.

    [snip]

    "The President's apology for his comments and his commitment to bringing the Special Olympics to the White House are important first steps in shedding light on this important issue.

    So if you gave a sh*t about those who have some kind of disability you would welcome the dialogue and Obama's apology.  But you are more intent in putting another anti Obama chink in your belt.

    How enlightned of you.

    Parent

    We await (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:39:36 PM EST
    Obama's apology.  Not his spokesperson's.  Not to a Kennedy clanner.  

    I do expect it.  He can learn.  You could learn from that.

    Parent

    How dishonest of you (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by nycstray on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 09:52:11 PM EST
    How on earth could I "forget that part" when it does not exist in the article I linked? BTW, nice link to it that you provided.

    Thanks for supporting my theory that you do see everything through the eyes of "everyone is out to get Obama Paranoia", lol!~

    I honestly doubt Obama is going to do anything about having a dialogue around the subject, nor have I heard a public apology from his lips (I am aware he called Shriver). I'm sure he's hoping it will go away. If not, perhaps a speech is in order . . .

    Listen, the dude is tone deaf and lacks sensitivity. If you can't see that . . . well . . . not much I can say. Nor do I feel like wasting my breath defending myself against your delusion  as to my "motives" behind my comments. I'm not into collecting "belt chinks", project much?

    Parent

    Not Dishonest (none / 0) (#112)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:39:14 PM EST
    I assumed that you had read Schriver's statement and left out the lines that support Obama because you do not like him.

    A dialogue would be welcome, I expect that we will be hearing more on the subject, and hope Shriver keeps up the pressure.

    Being tone deaf is a far cry from being some kind of bigot. And, personally I do not see him as so tone deaf anyway.

    Parent

    If that were the case (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:17:53 AM EST
    I would have linked the statement. As it was, I linked my source. I was cruising around looking for the age of the bowler when I came across it.

    I never said he was a bigot and don't think he is. I think he is tone deaf, insensitive and  does have a tendency to look down on others. Kind of a yuppie/frat boy type of 'tude. I'd say he also has latte liberal tendencies, but I don't see the liberal in him, lol!~

    And before you start sayin' I'm an Obama hater, no, I'm an observer. A trained one at that ;)

    Interesting that you hope Shriver will continue to push for dialogue/keep up the pressure . . . one would hope O wouldn't need pressure after his "joke" . . .  

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#119)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:23:41 AM EST
    Kind of a yuppie/frat boy type of 'tude.
    Sounds like bigots to me.

    Why is it strange that I hope Shriver keeps up the pressure, I said earlier that I would love to see Special Olympic bowlers come to the WH and give Obama tips on how to improve his game.

    I think he is a quick learner and could even get his score up to 160 or more, with some help from disabled people.

    Parent

    I guess I never really associated them that way (none / 0) (#122)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:50:59 AM EST
    I always saw it as more of a "popular thing" and equal willingness to "discriminate" against their own. lol!~ so bigot wasn't really a label I would put there. Snob on the other hand . . . .

    Why about the pressure? Read it again. If the experience of his "gaffe" had any impact on him, how much pressure should be necessary for him to do the right thing?  

    We'll see his true learning ability if he gets a puppy, lol!~  ;)

    Parent

    That's true, I suppose (none / 0) (#121)
    by sj on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:37:29 AM EST
    In my experience the mentally disabled are more forgiving.  They just shouldn't have so much to forgive.

    Parent
    Okay, now I'm laughing (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:05:36 PM EST
    at reading this roundup of reaction.  Read to the end:  A Special Olympian himself would like us to know that Obama also has his facts wrong.  Why?  Obama's roll of a 129, although showing much improvement, is still not good enough to get him . . . into the ranks of the very special people good enough for the Special Olympics.  

    Parent
    Now that is funny. (none / 0) (#92)
    by Thanin on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:07:37 PM EST


    Parent
    It is interesting that there's not one word... (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 08:40:30 PM EST
    ...of anger for the actions that speak louder than any words.

    The biggest single chunk of money that Palin is turning down is about $170 million for education, including money that would go for programs to help economically disadvantaged and special needs students.

    Here is a special needs mother turning away funding that would actually make a difference in these kids lives to further her own political agenda.  To me POV, much more heinious than anything Obama said.  

    Parent

    Are you willing to consider (none / 0) (#82)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 09:07:47 PM EST
    that the refusal of this money, which was not all for special needs education, might have something to do with her tripling the funding just a few months ago for special needs education?

    The bashing of this governor is such a non-stop media sport, that it's hard to believe much of anything published.

    Newsweek, however, investigated claims made and found her to be quite generous in addressing the needs of special children in Alaska after the first claim she had cut funding.

    So, are you willing to consider the article may not be representing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

    Parent

    So... (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 09:50:42 PM EST
    ...when the rubber meets the road, and an opportunity presents itself to provide even more help to these kids, its about poor sainted Sarah and not those that desperately need all the assistance they can get. How very noble of you.

    Any yes, I'm going to give more credibility to a current local article over an outdated Newsweek article and your unsourced claim of increased current funding.  

    If these programs are as well funded into the future as you seem to think, then why is she using the excuse of "expanding govenment programs" in her rationale for rejecting the money?

    It is a matter of discussing with our lawmakers if the expansion there is something we're willing to pick up the tab for when the federal dollars dry up, when they no longer flow into Alaska

    Sure sounds like the schools aren't seeing all of this supposed funding...

    Anchorage School Superintendent Carol Comeau said she is "shocked and very disappointed" that Palin would reject the schools money. She said it could be used for job preservation, teacher training, and helping kids who need it.

    Newsweek "investigated"--that's a laugh.  Here's a little fact for you--Governors don't "triple funding" for anything--that function belongs to the Legislature. And I hope they over-ride her politically motivated refusal of this funding.

    Parent

    So, the answer is "no" (none / 0) (#89)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:02:52 PM EST
    you won't consider that just about every article published about Palin has been fabricated and exaggerated. I'm simply judging the media thrill over slamming her and her family at every opportunity. So far, nothing printed has proven itself to be true.

    My criticism is that we cannot trust the accuracy of journalists when it comes to Alaska's governor.

    Good grief! Fair reporting was my point. But, if it makes you feel good to blast it into a form that is unrecognizable, go right ahead.


    Parent

    If youre going to question... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Thanin on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:07:14 PM EST
    the validity of the media based off of fair reporting, how can you ever site anything printed?

    Parent
    READ (none / 0) (#95)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:10:32 PM EST
    When it comes to Palin there is so much inaccurate reporting done, it has become impossible to know the level of truth in anything printed about her.

    Signing off...argue amongst yourselves.


    Parent

    Heh... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Thanin on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:34:18 PM EST
    it can be argued that those terms could apply to most anyone or most any subject.  That was the point.  

    Theres no need for you to cop out and run, but suit yourself.

    Parent

    Numerous governors are refusing all or some (none / 0) (#124)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 01:24:03 AM EST
    of the stimulus money. The reasons range from the money being only a portion of a greater amount needed that is being put on the states to find when they are running on tight budgets as it is to huge strings attached and requirements to report back to the administration at a level of detail that would take more resources than the states have right now.

    The governors who are refusing all the money are certainly turning down money for special needs students, so dig up a critical article on one of them and give equal disdain their way.

    If you think the whole story is in that one little article, give it a few days and let the rest leak out. You'll probably find the truthful article somewhere hidden among the grocery ads.


    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 01:28:02 PM EST
    They are refusing but their state will go around them to get the money. It is political posturing, they will all take the money.

    Parent
    How much of that 170 ed funding was slated (none / 0) (#88)
    by nycstray on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:00:00 PM EST
    for special ed? Sounds like it was an equal opportunity refusal. Like all of the ed funding?

    Oh, and the people of Alaska are pissed, as is their right. Should it be a nationwide discussion?


    Parent

    Because the special needs kids... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:09:51 PM EST
    ...in Alaska are any less important than anywhere else?  Of course it should be a nationwide discussion, its that important.  After all, the measure of a society is how it treats the least of its citizens.

    Do you have an idea of what's it is like to be a young child and be soooo very different from the rest of your peers?  To be pointed at, shunned, physically mistreated?  And how frightening and isolating it truly is at that age?

    It ain't the number of dollars in this case, it is the action (and their consequences) itself.

    Parent

    I guess I'm having a bit of a problem here (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:06:54 AM EST
    because she isn't just refusing special ed funds, it's all funds. To me it would be different if it was only special ed and/or low income funding, but she's refusing education funding in total along with other funding. I don't see how that action is specific to special needs kids. I do see how it is specific to Alaskans who have special needs, have special needs kids, are low income and yes, who are just your average school children. This (ed funding refusal) is about all children attending P.S. in Alaska, and that happens to be what I think the conversation should be about.

    You are aware Bloomberg wants to starve poor people aren't you?

    Parent

    Doesn't seem to matter to MHH (none / 0) (#91)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:07:34 PM EST
    how much. And, not the people of Alaska, one superintendent. I question the credibility of the journalist, and know absolutely nothing about the superintendent.

    Parent
    70 and sunny indeed. (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:49:15 AM EST
    The big hills still covered in white, the bright blue Colorado sky, the tree outside my deck all abloom with bees flittering around it, the flowers popping out of ground filling the air with fragrance.  

    I don't think there is a better time of year or place than Springtime in the Rockies.

    Sun shinin' in NY too.... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:53:03 AM EST
    now if the boys will ever get outta bed we can go shoot some hoops!

    Parent
    A little blacktop... (none / 0) (#10)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:59:28 AM EST
    2 on 2?  

    Parent
    3 on 3 hopefully.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:05:43 PM EST
    or maybe some full court if there are enough heads at the park.

    Time to make a pest of myself and speed this along...

    Parent

    Don't pull anything, kdog! (none / 0) (#12)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:03:34 PM EST
    heh, just kidding.

    Parent
    that doesn't read right... (none / 0) (#15)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:16:31 PM EST
    I meant a muscle, kdog... just to be clear. Children can wear us down, physically, but it's worth it.

    Parent
    You were clear jeff... (none / 0) (#132)
    by kdog on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 11:46:22 AM EST
    I wasn't...no kids for me, "the boys" are my friends.

    All I pulled was my pride, couldn't get my jumper to fall for sh*t:)

    Parent

    Well, Greenwald's piece explains a lot (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by scribe on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:29:30 PM EST
    Yesterday, over at Emptywheel's place, there was a note on Obama's interesting reference to "financial terrorists" - guys wearing the fiscal equivalent of explosive vests and the need to talk them off the trigger.

    I commented that this was no mistake on his part, but wondered:

    The question is: at whom is Obama pointing this threat? At a company? Or at individual bankers? Or at the pitchfork and torch crowd? Or at the people stirring the rage pot?

    3. This could be a message sent as a way of facilitating hiving off the worst of the mess into a bad bank (i.e., take an axe to all of AIG's connections to the greater economy analogous to FDR's bank holiday, then get in and figure out what's going on), or overcoming some resistance to a bad bank. Or it could be a warning to the banksters, personally, to quit d*cking around with withholding information and playing cute and coy with the government. I dunno. But it does show that Obama is getting deadly serious about this.


     Having read Greenwald and his note that the elite opinion has turned like a school of fish to the direction of minimizing, mocking, denigrating and ignoring the public rage against both the AIG bonuses (themselves only the tip of the iceberg) and the corruption that reigns in government generally, I am moving toward a conclusion.  Part of that conclusion is that Obama is a part of that school of fish called "elite opinion" and is voicing his part of it.

    I saw something and wrote about it over a year ago in a post entitled OBamamania = Joementum.  In that post, I concluded:

    Reading about that [some of Obama's positions and statements], all I could hear was Joementum's sanctimony on all things.  It's a short ride to another hospital.  You shouldn't have gotten yourself raped. Mr. Clinton's behavior was excreable.  And so on.  You've all heard his holier-than-thou sanctimony and it makes my stomach turn to try to write it down.  

    Obama's sounding a lot like his mentor.


    There was also a sage comment:
    I smell William Ewart Gladstone ...
    He castigated Disraeli for fighting the Zulus and then proceeded, once won office to conduct a series of brutal colonial wars that Disraeli would never have dared to fight.
    Obama is a perfect vehicle for rebraning  Imperial Wars as a good thing.

    The other part of that conclusion is that Obama is making sure everyone knows he is the whip hand of elite opinion.  

    I suspect the target of Obama's remark was twofold:  the banksters (who underwrote a lot of his campaign and supplied a lot of the fiscal "brainpower"), and the sentient public.

    As to the banksters, he's saying pretty much the same thing Bushie said when he indicated there would be a full investigation and cooperation in it, relative to leaking Plame's identity but that he thought no one would be found:  "Stick together with me and we all come out of this all right."

    As to the ordinary populace, he's being quite direct:  "'terrorist' is a term which can be used against you.  Back off protesting and STFU."  

    Not for nothing, his administration is also pointing at al-Marri - who the government held in a military prison for years prior to charging him with some terrorism charge, the gist of which was that he was tasked by al Qaeda with using his computer skills to disrupt or bring down the US banking system.

    The latter is about as plausible as a guy going after the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch, but there it is.  That guy's doing like 20 years or so.

    So the Obama message can be summarized like this:

    Obama looks out over a crowd of ordinary people and bankers and says "Nobody gets hurt", then shifts his gaze toward the ordinary people and says "By the way, you're nobody."
    And you had better shut up and like it.
    From Greenwald (5.00 / 7) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:35:15 PM EST
    kleptocratic pillaging and deep-seated corruption in virtually every branch of our establishment institutions.

    Exactly, Mr. Greenwald.  EVERY institution.  EVERY institution, including the media AND the presidency.

    and also including (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:41:01 PM EST
    most progressive, obama-loving, head-in-the-sand blogs.

    Parent
    I just shake my head (5.00 / 8) (#22)
    by jbindc on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:37:37 PM EST
    at people I know and work with (most with college degrees and even advanced degrees) who feel the need to use this word.  I point out to them that they spent a great deal of money on education and for them to use a word that junior high kids use, tells me they need to expand their vocabulary if that's the best they can come up with to describe something that they think is stupid, idiotic, inane, dumb, doltish, obtuse, dim, nitwitted, short-sighted, or asinine. (See, I did it in about 5 seconds - it CAN be done!)

    I also point out to these same people that they think they are so progressive, wouldn't dream of using the words posted above, (and would look down on those who did use them), but think the r-word is acceptable.  They look at me with blank stares and just don't get it.

    of course (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by Bemused on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:27:58 PM EST
     
      Idiotic and dumb were also formerly pretty much clinical type words used to describe disabilities too, that are now disfavored in professional use. At one time idiot meant someone  in the lowest classification of intelligence  with a "mental age" of less than three years old, and dumb meant soemone unable to speak which was then closely associated with lack of intelligence.

      It may be just that those usages are so removed from our experience we forget, whereas for those of a certain age "retarded" was used clinically" in our memory. Those words probably don't hurt or offend as much today, but that's probably at least in part because it's been so long since they were used other than  colloquially rather as opposed the reason behind their usage to insult being different.

    Parent

    I am outraged (reply to post # 22) (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Politalkix on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:47:05 PM EST
    The word "idiot" (according to Webster) is usually associated with a person "affected with extreme mental retardation" and can be construed as offensive. The word "asinine" makes an insulting reference to one of the hardest working animals on the planet.
    People living in glass houses should not be throwing stones.....

    Parent
    Yes (3.00 / 2) (#38)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 02:33:42 PM EST
    It is utter BS, faux outrage from some of these commenters whose main job at TL is to bash Obama. Obviously calling some an idiot is exactly the same as calling them a retard. Most people with disabilities are far more forgiving than asses who are out looking  to accuse others of using so called insensitive language. It is particularly absurd when the so called offender apologizes and had zero ill intent.

    Many of the same commenters here used inflamatory language here during the campaign, with full intent to harm and made no apologies for it.

    And I wonder how many people with IQ's below 50 give a damn what they are called as long as they are treated well.

    Hell the jbindc suggested that Obama and Michele be hogtied the other day, how PC is that?

    Parent

    Hogtied? Thats nice. (none / 0) (#45)
    by Thanin on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 04:24:28 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes (1.00 / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 04:40:32 PM EST
    That is what they did to slaves who were considered no much different from livestock.

    Today it is usually used as a S&M bondage term. Don't think that was jnindc's intended meaning.

    Parent

    Yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Thanin on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:10:48 PM EST
    I'll be waiting to see if jbindc will apologize to the AA community for condoning the torture of slaves.

    Not going to be holding my breath though.

    Parent

    Huh? I don't see it in her post (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:28:55 PM EST
    only in yours.  Where am I missing its first use here?

    Parent
    Not Here (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:35:58 PM EST
    But in one of Jacob Freeze's Obama barbecues.

    Parent
    Obama-Change you can believe in (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by nellre on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:46:53 PM EST
    I see change from Bush... thank God!
    But I don't see the change he promised...yet. He seems to be trying though.

    For your amusement on this Saturday... (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by easilydistracted on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 01:26:26 PM EST
    you gotta see this picture of George (number 43) on the cover of the Dallas Magazine. I saw it at the checkout lane yesterday.
    http://www.dmagazine.com/Magazines.aspx

    This picture is nuts. (none / 0) (#77)
    by lilburro on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:42:41 PM EST
    Is this for real??

    Parent
    It's the pink sweater (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:59:31 PM EST
    and no socks, the size of his head on that body . . . c'mon, that had to be photoshopped.  Or maybe from his Yalie days?  As Dubya, he always liked to be AlphaMan in his cowboy leather and boots.

    Parent
    Montana vs Pitt WOMEN (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:03:49 PM EST
    My niece's team, although my niece just got 5 sutures in her shoulder and can't make the game.

    5:00pm today PT.

    Watch on ESPN2 or ESPN360.com if you can ;-).

    I'm off to the game!

    Hope Montana does well (none / 0) (#72)
    by cal1942 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:13:28 PM EST
    That said:

    Purdue
    by cal1942 on Thu Mar 19, 2009 at 07:37:56 AM EST

    will beat Northern Iowa in the first round.

    And then  
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Mar 19, 2009 at 04:53:10 PM EST

    lose to Washington ;-).

    Final Score: Purdue 76 - Washington 74

    Parent

    Within the margin of error ;-) (none / 0) (#103)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:34:58 PM EST
    And a case in point about why we need a "loser's bracket" in the NCAA playoffs.

    Sudden death in basketball is somewhat meaningless.  IMHO.

    Parent

    Single elimination tournaments (none / 0) (#107)
    by cal1942 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:07:41 PM EST
    are flawed.  But, the tournament field would have to be much smaller to accomodate a double loss structure.  That would certainly eliminate many schools from having any chance of participating.

    As for a loser's bracket, I wonder about the value.  In the past, the two losers in the semi-finals played each other before the championship game.  That practice has been discontinued and I can understand why.  Pretty disappointing if your team gets to the final four only to lose twice.  A bit more loss of lustre in an otherwise outstanding season. As I understand the involved teams seldom had any interest in playing the runners-up game.

    So far as within the spread is concerned; I'm not a gambler, I like sports and to me the winner is the winner whether by 1 point or 50.  There's no beggaring the point.

    There's no case in point, Purdue won the game.  Period.

    Parent

    Darn the luck for your niece (none / 0) (#80)
    by Cream City on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 08:00:09 PM EST
    but I hope all goes well for the team, as she did her part to get them there, huh?

    Parent
    THANKS (none / 0) (#100)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:26:26 PM EST
    They lost badly...worse than last year.  Oh well, making the NCAA playoffs is quite an honor.

    Yes, Misty did her part.  She's only a red shirt Freshman.  This is her first year of eligibility, but she did very well....scored 8 points in about 5 minutes of play once, that was her best game, but she'd done well.

    Parent

    Montana led most of the first half (none / 0) (#108)
    by Green26 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:15:50 PM EST
    and was done only 1 at halftime. Then Pitt kicked it in gear, using a tough trapping press, and Montana was able to score only 10 in the second half (most of which were scored in the last 5 minutes).

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    Thanks for the update (none / 0) (#114)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:02:17 AM EST
    as my teevee was taken over the by March Madness-mad spouse for other games for hours.

    You bet she ought to be proud even to be on the bench of a team that makes it to the bigtime.  I'm proud just to anonymously know the proud aunt of one of the fine young women who work so hard, I know, to get on any college team -- and stay there.  It takes incredible determination to keep up the grades while keeping up the practice schedule, training, and more that they must do.  

    Now keep us posted on the years to come of her college career.  The basketball-crazy spouse, btw, actually is a great fan of women's hoops; he goes to more of their college games here than the men's games, as he (and I) find the women's rules make it fun to watch.  So I plan to easily persuade him to clear teevee time to watch the Montana women next year, as they will be back . . . and with a rising star named Misty.:-)

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    p.s. I think I just found (none / 0) (#116)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:10:26 AM EST
    the scouting report on her.  Wow.  She must have been fun to watch -- "a revelation" -- in the state h.s. tournament.  We definitely will want to watch her next year.  So I'm counting on the Lady Griz to get to the NCAA three years in a row!

    But then, maybe I'm just partial to 5'10 women from the fine state of Washington -- not far from my mother's hometown, and that was my mother's height, even in her generation . . . and how she would have enjoyed women's sports getting respect, at last.:-)

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    starting a NORML chapter in GA (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Xclusionary Rule 4ever on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:32:02 PM EST
    About a dozen lawyers, doctors and activists are starting a state chapter of NORML here in Georgia. I plan on filing articles of incorporation on April 20 at 4:20 pm.
    On hemp paper!

    Rock on brother... (none / 0) (#131)
    by kdog on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 11:44:37 AM EST
    raise some hell right back at the tyrants.

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    In the spirit of March Madness (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:21:06 AM EST
    And steviez hit on this point in another thread (albeit, satirically), I think we should set up brackets on which financial giant is going to have the next scandal in the news.  Politico has an article asking "Who is the Next AIG?" where their thesis is:

    If AIG's bonus checks make you mad, keep your pitchfork handy. Here's the secret behind the government's bailouts: Any bank big enough to get billions in bailout cash is almost certainly giving out bonus checks too.

    It's just that they won't tell you.

    Huge annual bonuses -- and the secrecy around them -- are so ingrained in the culture of Wall Street that even a global economic meltdown can't stop them. Most top execs, stock traders and the like earn the vast majority of their take-home pay in the form of a bonus -- not base salary -- and some employees receive far more than $1 million.

    SNIP

    ...several of the top 10 recipients of taxpayer money from the TARP program refused to comment to POLITICO when asked how much bonus cash they doled out to employees in 2008.
    Nothings going on (none / 0) (#4)
    by SOS on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:37:56 AM EST
    Same old parallel universe we've grown accustomed to.
    I did get a chance (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 11:39:56 AM EST
    to talk to my 6 year old today, by telephone. At least until Batman came on. Sigh.

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    Knowing now what you're enduring (none / 0) (#120)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 12:34:31 AM EST
    (from another thread), how hard it must be.  I'm so sorry.  But you and we know that kids that age have the attention span of gnats, even when they're right in front of us . . . especially if a favorite tv show also is in front of them, too.

    Here's hoping that you soon will have fewer phone bills and legal bills, so that you will have more funds for renting DVD's of Batman to watch together. . . .

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    Do you watch Batman? (none / 0) (#123)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 01:04:54 AM EST
    Any chance you could Skype with your son and watch it together? I don't know what country he's in or if there's computer access, but if possible to Skype with him (watching Batman or just a chatting), it could be good for keeping things "real".

    I'm glad you got to talk to him :)

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    Good thought re Skype above (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 02:05:12 AM EST
    and if you're not familiar with it, we are now.  Software is free online, and needed hardware is in new computers, but we attached a $50 little camera to an old computer, and it works well to keep kids in touch when separated by oceans.  They sometimes go to online games at the same time, playing chess, when "how was your day" talk gets to be a stretch.

    I bet that ol' Chutes and Ladders game that my kids loved at the age of yours is online, and finishing the game -- and beating dad at it -- might rival watching Batman.  Heck, you probably know better what's out there now, maybe a Batman game?  (I got so tired of those kids' games that you may come to regret this suggestion.:-)

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    PR's former Governor (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:17:39 PM EST
    was acquitted yesterday.

    I seem to remember BTD saying that he thought the charges were BS, but I'm still a little surprised. (As I am when anyone is acquitted).

    It was a BS case (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 12:21:24 PM EST
    with no direct evidence and a lot of peal bargained testimony.

    A good result in the verdict.

    The damage done to Puerto Rico's 2008 election is not fixable.

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    Would Hillary have acted differently in..... (none / 0) (#51)
    by mikeel on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:03:53 PM EST
    1.  Choice of Treasury Secretary?
    2.  Handling of the AIG fiasco?
    3.  Choosing her economic team?
    4.  Her budget priorities?

    I'm seeing some Hillary nostalgia on this blog, that's why I'm asking this question.

    I think there would have been some different choices, but there is a lot of anger out there, and I still believe the GOP would have gone after her from day one.

    The GOP would have pounced (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by Fabian on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 06:09:12 PM EST
    on any Democrat.  Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Dennis Kucinich - any Democrat.

    Just because Obama made a point of wooing GOP voters doesn't mean that any GOP politicians were going to go weak at the knees for him.

    Sometimes it's tempting to play Alternate Histories - but now it's what Obama did and what Obama will do.

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    I was a staunch Hillary supporter in the primaries (none / 0) (#101)
    by Amiss on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:32:40 PM EST
    but I dont think it helps us or the quagmire we are in to keep on with the "What if's" I believe it deters us from moving forward and does none of us any good. We have what we have to work with and we should all move forward and try to work within that framework to get our country out of this mess we are in.

    Does it sadden me? You betcha! But if I dwell on that I can not go forward. Kinda like a death in the family, to me, at least.

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    My view (none / 0) (#128)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 22, 2009 at 08:03:49 AM EST
    Almost certainly no. There is not a dime's worth of difference between Obama and Clinton.

    Funny how no Obama supporter except me would admit that during the election.

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    The Greenwalk article mentioned Elliot Spitzer. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Green26 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:27:23 PM EST
    I wonder if things would be gone better at AIG if Spitzer hadn't forced out the long-time CEO and largest shareholder, Hank Greenberg?

    Greenberg opposed and criticized new management from the outset.

    I once saw a Greenberg quote in which he said he wouldn't have allowed investment in subprime mortgages.

    Greenberg was forced out in 2005, I believe, so some of the AIG problems, like the credit default swaps, were being done well before he left.

    Nevertheless, would he have recognized the problems earlier and taken corrective action? He would have had alot at statke. I believe most of his multi-billion dollar fortune was in AIG stock.

    I 'm disinclined to listen to (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by scribe on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:45:18 PM EST
    the "good" about Greenberg of AIG.  It was discussed over here, yesterday.

    He was an unindicted co-conspirator in a stock-manipulation scheme involving AIG stock.  Four of the five officers indicted were convicted and received lengthy sentences.

    AIG's reinsurance looks like an even bigger mess than the derivatives business.  The whole company is a snakepit.

    And, yes, Spitzer was whacked for having the temerity to bring it up.

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    Oh, yeah- BTW. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by scribe on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 05:46:10 PM EST
    The guy who started AIG?

    He was the grandfather of Kenneth Starr (yes.  him.)

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    Greenberg (none / 0) (#78)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 07:43:01 PM EST
    is doing his best to rehabilitate himself right now by pretending he was above all this, but he wasn't.  He was as big of a robber baron as we make in this country, IMHO, and the one who aggressively sent AIG down this path.


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    Part of BushCo (none / 0) (#97)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 21, 2009 at 10:13:46 PM EST


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    Saturday Open Thread | 133 comments (133 topical)

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