home

Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread

Your turn.

This is an Open Thread.

< GOP Intelligence Ranking Member Calls For Release Of Torture Info | Who Protects The Torturers? Barack Obama >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Anglachel (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by jbindc on Tue May 12, 2009 at 12:56:18 PM EST
    is back....

    I was so happy to see that yesterday. (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Dr Molly on Tue May 12, 2009 at 12:59:54 PM EST
    SO SO happy.

    Parent
    Loved the comment (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 12, 2009 at 01:25:15 PM EST
    The netroots will not rescue the Republic, or something like that.

    Persactly. The netroots at times need their own rescuers.  I wonder if Geithner has a plan for them ;-).

    Parent

    I'll be listening to what she (none / 0) (#13)
    by Joelarama on Tue May 12, 2009 at 01:41:49 PM EST
    has to say.  There's very little heterodoxy among the lefty blogs, or at least among those that managed to stay rational during the primaries.

    Parent
    Social Security? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:21:29 PM EST
    I remember some of us were worried about Obama's position on Social Security, the rumblings are starting again.  

    Stellaaa! (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by jbindc on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:30:56 PM EST
    Don't be silly.  He's really a big ol' lefty who wouldn't do anything to Social Security...<snark>

    Good to see you again!

    Parent

    It was only a matter of time... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Anne on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:31:57 PM EST
    and seeing how health care "reform" is, um, shaping up, I can hardly wait to see what horror awaits us on the Social Security front.

    [nice to see you, by the way!)

    Parent

    LAT on medicare: (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:32:53 PM EST
    They start with the fear (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:37:22 PM EST
    Salon front page has a great article, I linked to it, countering all the faux arguments.  

    Oculus I remember that was one of the issues you were afraid of how he would handle.  Cream City as well.   Lets see where it goes.  

    Since most of the things I worried about are coming true, I am gardening and watching silly videos on You Tube.  

    Parent

    Good plan (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:52:35 PM EST
    Since most of the things I worried about are coming true, I am gardening and watching silly videos on You Tube.

    Probably should learn to be self-sufficient and hot to barter since our economy, Social Security, and healthcare system is about to collapse. Might need to take some self-defense classes as well to keep the vultures away....

    Parent

    I think you have the right idea. (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:02:33 PM EST
    I had best get keep my legal skills honed in case I need to return to the workplace sans medicare and Social Security.  

    Parent
    And so it begins (none / 0) (#42)
    by jbindc on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:05:05 PM EST
    Yup. (none / 0) (#43)
    by nycstray on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:05:30 PM EST
    When I woke up and saw the report was due out today on MC and SS, gosh, it wasn't hard to figure out what the day would hold . . .

    Parent
    That table 's been put in the center of the room (none / 0) (#53)
    by jawbone on Tue May 12, 2009 at 08:34:05 PM EST
    today, and some leaves have been put in to handle everything that's going to be put "on the table." Heh.

    Geithner was out saying SocSec has to be reformed, sooner better than later.

    Sebelius was out saying Medicare is in trouble, and she said the president hopes its reform will be part of the healthcare reform legislation -- which is supposed to be ready in July, with votes coming later in the summer.

    I didn't hear anything aboug Medicaid, but it can't be far behind.

    What's left of the safety net, of the FDR's and LBJ's social programs for Obama to "reform"?

    Parent

    On The Table is this year's (none / 0) (#54)
    by ruffian on Tue May 12, 2009 at 10:07:28 PM EST
    Under the Bus

    Parent
    Very cool . . . (none / 0) (#55)
    by nycstray on Tue May 12, 2009 at 11:02:04 PM EST
    Masters of the Universe taking care of our SS. Reforming Medicare with the same crew. Republicans must be happy.

    Wonder when welfare reform hits the table along with our food stamp program?

    Parent

    I'm hard at academic work (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue May 12, 2009 at 12:07:32 PM EST
    but Somerby is a must read today:

    There we see the full story arc of David Souter in the District. When he arrived, he moved into the building because a Respected Insider lived there. By the time he left, his presence there showed what a big kook he is.

    Your "press corps" dreams up novels--and "quotes." This is the way their tiny minds work.




    Agree - a classic (none / 0) (#24)
    by ruffian on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:04:00 PM EST
    Today's edition... (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 12:26:24 PM EST
    of police state madness brought to you be Philadelphia.

    Detained for asking a question...a blind man no less.

    Land of the free?  Coulda fooled me.

    Well, maybe now that John Yoo has (none / 0) (#3)
    by Anne on Tue May 12, 2009 at 12:30:56 PM EST
    a regular gig with the Phila. Inquirer, he can opine on these kinds of topics; perhaps advise the Philly PD on suggested interrogation techniques?

    Parent
    Seems the local authorities.... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 12:43:30 PM EST
    already have gotten copies of the memos.

    Poor Lady Liberty...so few friends, and so many enemies...and they all seem to be heavily armed with authority.

    Parent

    Man, do NOT (none / 0) (#16)
    by Zorba on Tue May 12, 2009 at 02:02:41 PM EST
    get at all uppity on any US flight in any US city or the "security thugs" will take you away.  (I think the police and airport security enjoy jack-booting all over the passengers, or at least, many of them do.  Flying in the US has become such an unpleasant experience, I try to avoid it as much as I can.)  In his defense, the blind guy is probably much more used to airline security in western Europe, which in my experience tends to be much less obnoxious than security in the States.  (And, in the case of Sweden, at least, is extremely laid back.)

    Parent
    I was surprised to learn that they (none / 0) (#6)
    by tigercourse on Tue May 12, 2009 at 12:56:29 PM EST
    didn't just replace the commanding General in Iraq, they fired him. Usually when they want to get rid of a general they reasign him or promote him up and out. I wonder what he did to warrant this.

    Donald Trump's Traditional American Values (none / 0) (#8)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 12, 2009 at 01:03:04 PM EST
    "We have determined that the uh, that the pictures taken [of Carrie Prejean's naked or semi-naked body] are fine."

    No mention of Prejean's lies about the pictures, but the miscommunication problem between Miss CA and Prejean is totally solved.  The "miscommunication" must refer to the contract Prejean signed saying she had never taken any of nude or semi-nude pictures, and after that was revealed as a lie, she said she had only taken one picture, and then when more surfaced, she said something else...) What a farce.

    Read: Money trumps everything else, and firing Prejean would result in more public defense of her, and likely translate to a huge monetary loss for the so called beauty pageants.  Trump does NOT want those men who ogle the beauties on display to think that Carrie was fired for her opinion about gay marriage.  

    The pageants are hurting... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 01:26:38 PM EST
    they're reduced to selling controversy now in a lame attempt to stay relevant...the sooner we ignore them the sooner they go away for good.

    FWIW..I don't think the fellas turn to beauty pageants to ogle anymore...we have strip clubs for that...or Cinemax...or the internet.  The only people I know who still watch or follow them are women.

    Parent

    a beauty pageant, but the video clip they showed on TV this AM of Miss CA on stage in a bikini was some mighty fine viewing...

    Parent
    I'm a brunette man... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    myself...but point taken:)

    Parent
    Sounds like (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 12, 2009 at 02:32:56 PM EST
    you were ogling the fake beauties.

    Parent
    than an ogler, per se, but I suppose that's neither here nor there...

    Parent
    Well said... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:00:31 PM EST
    fond appreciator, I like that.

    May we never pc ourselves out of appreciating the beauty of the human form...or admitting we appreciate and admire it.  No matter where your tastes may lie.

    Parent

    Even when the key parts (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:16:59 PM EST
    are made out of plastic?  Just askin'.

    Parent
    plastic (none / 0) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:20:50 PM EST
    needs love too.

    Parent
    I don't (none / 0) (#14)
    by Zorba on Tue May 12, 2009 at 01:44:37 PM EST
    know anyone, male or female, who watches these things.  I agree- just ignore these throwbacks to an earlier, more sexist and demeaning time (and speaking of sexist and demeaning, can we ignore Donald Trump, too, while we're at it?).

    Parent
    Preferably in one sentence, please explain (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:29:38 PM EST
    what the heck Donald Trump's connection to Miss California competition is.

    Parent
    TRUMP: Well, let me just state that (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:35:11 PM EST
    TRUMP: Well, let me just state that [...] the Miss USA and the Miss Universe are on network television and Miss Universe is broadcast all over the world. Now, those are the two that I own.


    Parent
    From wikipedia Donald_Trump... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by EL seattle on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:38:53 PM EST
    The Miss Universe Organization is owned by Donald Trump and the National Broadcasting Company (NBC). The organization produces the Miss Universe, Miss USA, and Miss Teen USA pageants.

    Parent
    Geez, Oculus (none / 0) (#47)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:17:49 PM EST
    try to stay in touch with pop culture, will ya?

    Parent
    It is a lot, lot quicker to just ask here! (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:33:28 PM EST
    Trump is the pageant's P$mp (none / 0) (#56)
    by MyLeftMind on Wed May 20, 2009 at 02:43:33 PM EST
    The almighty dollar rules yet again.  And what is the best imagery for selling products?

    Oh wait, that's right, they're really just role models for young girls...


    Parent

    Lakers/Rockets (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Tue May 12, 2009 at 01:13:32 PM EST
    The momentum change in this series from Yao breaking his foot to the Rockets' young guns running the Lakers out of the house without him, in less than 24 hours, was something to behold.  My forum blue & gold had better nut up and quickly.  You have to pick the Lakers, in seven at least, but I don't think there's going to be any blowout tonight.

    Then again, with my track record, there's a good chance it will be.

    Speaking of torture... (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 02:15:47 PM EST
    here is some court mandated legal torture right here in the USA on a US citizen in a psychiatric facility.  Link

    I won't pretend to understand elctro-shock therapy and whether it is a good idea for this cat, or for anybody...but I do know even the insane have the right to refuse treatment they do not want..I file that under an inalienable right.  No court should have the power to force it on a sovereign individual.

    Well, I remember, back in the day... (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 12, 2009 at 02:44:22 PM EST
    after reading "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," I told my mom how bad electroshock was and she told me that one of our "aunts" (long time family friend) had been severely depressed and electroshock saved her life. So I guess it does work, at least for Aunt Flo.

    As far as where the line should be drawn between personal freedom and protecting society, I know that's one of your big issues so I'll let you lead that battle. :-)

    Parent

    As long as it was Aunt Flo's... (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 02:56:46 PM EST
    choice, more power to her....like I said I won't pretend to understand it, apparently even the doctors who use the treatment don't really understand why or how it works...they way they described it as 'resetting' the brain made me think of CTL + ALT + DELETE for humans...when in doubt, reboot.

    I tend to think I want no part of high voltage to the brain, too scary...but then again I'm only slightly insane, nothing offical:)

    Yep..its a biggie for me...the state can't strap people down and give them shocks or shots or even a band-aid without the patients consent, or their loved ones if they are unable.  Firm line in the sand in my book.


    Parent

    Yes. (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Zorba on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:10:51 PM EST
    I majored in psychology and special education, and worked with the (severely) emotionally disturbed.  While they cannot give "informed consent" in many instances, they can be more "aware" than society thinks, if you take the time and effort (although often this depends on the day, or even the hour).  My feeling is that, while society has a right to protect itself from harm from them by, perhaps, involuntary admission to a mental hospital, and may even have a right to protect you from harming yourself, by the same process, it does not have the right to subject you to involuntary electroshock therapy or drugs.  This is a difficult decision to make in any case.  But unless you are willing to incarcerate these people forever, they are going to do whatever they are going to do when they "get out," which may include being homeless, going without help, and being destructive of themselves and society, at times.  It's not any easy decision, as I said.   Electroshock therapy is not quite the horror depicted in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," (and it sure beats pre-frontal lobotomies, which used to be done quite regularly) but, yes, it does lead to amnesia, which is usually temporary, but repeated shock therapy......who knows?  I don't think that competent studies have been done.  I would tend to err on the side of the individual's right to refuse treatment.  But that's just MY opinion (and one formed by not necessarily trusting "the state" to come up with the best solution).  Sorry if I've been way too wordy.

    Parent
    sometimes people in that position (none / 0) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:01:36 PM EST
    are not able to make a sound judgement on their own.
    I have very mixed feelings about electro shock.  I know it helps some people very much but I also know it has been used as punishment and repression.

    Parent
    Sound judgement... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:09:45 PM EST
    is way too subjective Capt....not to mention people have the right to make choices for themselves that others might deem poor, or even dangerous to themselves.

    The guy in question here basically said its causing him to lose his memory...does the state have the right to erase his mind?  Turn him from crazy to veggie because he is easier to deal with as a veggie?  

    If he again becomes violent, we have the right to lock him up, but no right to shock his mind into oblivion unless he consents.

    Parent

    not arguing with you (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:22:47 PM EST
    the state probably never.  in some cases a family member.  it does effect memory.  which is one of the reasons it works sometimes I guess.

    like I said,very mixed feelings.  for very personal reasons.  I came close to an encounter with some electrodes once before I was "of age" and already out.

    my older brothers did not like it and tried to get my mother to have me committed which would have almost certainly have gone there.  she told them to f*ck off.  otherwise I might not remember the incident.  so like I said. mixed feelings.

    but since then I have heard several stories like the one above about it saving lives.

    Parent

    Hard for me to get past the sordid history.... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:26:32 PM EST
    of electro-shock, no doubt bro...when it was used in the past in a psychotic attempt to shock, or torture, the gay out of people.  Or just the different out of people.

    Parent
    For reasons nobody understands (none / 0) (#49)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:22:43 PM EST
    it actually does "jolt" some people out of otherwise intractable deep depressions.  I know two people who've had it, and it worked for a while for both of them, but wasn't permanent.  One hated, hated, hated the memory loss (although I've read that it does come back eventually, don't know if that's true) and was very freaked out about it.  The other, an older gent, accepted it quite cheerfully as a small price to pay. He told people happily, "My wife thought I was too glum, so she had me zapped."  In truth, he was so depressed he was very close to catatonic.


    Parent
    The Issue of Force (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by daring grace on Tue May 12, 2009 at 04:10:38 PM EST
    is THE issue, as far as I'm concerned.

    That, and the issue of labeling behavior as 'sick'.

    Reading about the way Sandford behaved when he was placed in the hospital in January, it seemed to me it could have been the behavior of someone who's 'mentally ill' or it could have been the obstreperous behavior of someone who instead gets called 'criminal'. Maybe it depends on the setting or the person's personal history--where they've been put before when they didn't conform.

    I'm not arguing anyone should be allowed to harm others as an expression of personal freedom. And I tend to favor intervention when someone is a danger to themselves. (But then doesn't THAT cover a broad swath of activities we all indulge in from time to time?).

    It's the coercive nature of this 'treatment.' If it works for some folks, and they want access to it, fine. Forcing this on someone who is in an assisted living situation and not some lock down ward is unreasonable to me. Actually, forcing it at all is unreasonable to me.

    I was recently at an advocacy training where an attorney for people with mental illness diagnoses advised us if we or someone we worked with were anytime arrested and given a choice to get a penal sentence or a mental health sentence, that we take the jail time. Because in New York state at least, apparently, mental health time can become flexible spanning years and years you didn't expect.

    Parent

    This Whole Thing (none / 0) (#39)
    by CDN Ctzn on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:53:49 PM EST
    reminds me of the premise of Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" and the theory that the brain can be reduced to a "blank slate" and reprogramed at will. That theory has led to the worst crimes against humanity in recent history.

    Parent
    2nd police state story: GPS tracking by police (none / 0) (#25)
    by jawbone on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:05:34 PM EST
    considered legal, even without warrant.

    The case comes out of Wisconsin (so sad to see my home state doing this, albeit the police did get a warrant to track the suspect) and was upheld on appeal by the 4th Circuit.

    The Chicago Tribune reports last Thursday's ruling:

    As the law currently stands, the court said police can mount GPS on cars to track people without violating their constitutional rights -- even if the drivers aren't suspects.

    Officers do not need to get warrants beforehand because GPS tracking does not involve a search or a seizure, Judge Paul Lundsten wrote for the unanimous three-judge panel based in Madison.

    That means "police are seemingly free to secretly track anyone's public movements with a GPS device," he wrote.

    One privacy advocate said the decision opened the door for greater government surveillance of citizens. Meanwhile, law enforcement officials called the decision a victory for public safety because tracking devices are an increasingly important tool in investigating criminal behavior.

    Now some entrpreneur is going to have to develop a tracker detectomg device. While this particular case involved an alleged stalker, it is now legal for police to plant one of these trackers on anyone's vehicle, with or without a warrant.

    How long before politicians, activists, "inconvenient" persons are being tracked? I'm sure the government would have loved to have this when "surveiling" all those dangerous peace groups. Well, they probably did, right?

    The court's reasoning was "the tracking did not violate constitutional protections because the device only gave police information that could have been obtained through visual surveillance."

    Of course, it now becomes much easier to track people, since no human is involved except for placing and removing the tracking GPS device. The only limitation is the money to purchase the tracking devices.

    However, the District 4 Court of Appeals said it was "more than a little troubled" by that conclusion and asked Wisconsin lawmakers to regulate GPS use to protect against abuse by police and private individuals.

    By "private individuals"? Is the court saying private persons may also use these tracking devices? Whoa. A stalker initiated this case; now stalkers have an easier and legal way to track their prey?

    When does dropping a miniaturized version into someone's purse or briefcase become legal?


    Scary stuff... (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:18:07 PM EST
    technology man...a blessing and a curse.  Killing what is left of privacy and fast too.

    I just hope the GPS jamming device hits the market soon!

    Parent

    Third time is a charm... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue May 12, 2009 at 03:54:11 PM EST
    for federal prosecutors...they got guilty verdicts for 5 of the Liberty City 6.  Link

    Attempting to con AQ out of some cash is terrorism now I guess.

    The Governor's budget (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Tue May 12, 2009 at 05:16:21 PM EST
    initiatives are on the ballot in CA May 19.  Today I received a mailer in support of Propositiona 1A and 1B.  The mailer states President Obama "offered encouragement for the governor's budget initiatives."  

    Googled but cannot find any news source as to Obama directly endorsing any of the initiatives.  

    Hitchens (none / 0) (#52)
    by lentinel on Tue May 12, 2009 at 06:32:40 PM EST
    I truly dislike Hitchens.
    The quote I will never forget or forgive is his saying, during the fever leading to the war in Iraq: "What's wrong with war for oil?"

    Having said that, I must agree with his observation concerning Wanda Sykes' performance while taking exception to his personal characterization of her.

    Obama should have been squirming, not laughing.
    There is a lot to skewer him about.
    His "looking forward" b.s. with regard to torture, for one.

    And here she is, telling him and us that everybody loves him.
    I don't love him.
    I'm mad as hell.