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AP Analyzes Obama's Shift to the Middle

The AP has an analysis today of President Obama's "shift to the center" on economic and national security issues. The most disconcerting line:

Afghanistan "could well be Obama's Vietnam, eventually," said James Thurber, a political scientist at American University.

Another analyst says:

"Obama calls himself a pragmatist. That often ends up with fairly centrist policies," Shapiro said. "In the end, the progressives, the left in Congress, will support the president even on getting a half loaf in health care rather than a full loaf," he added.

[More..]

On the economy:

He frequently complains he inherited a $1.2 trillion deficit from President George W. Bush.

But Obama's presidency, not yet four months old, has put the government on track for a $1.8 trillion shortfall. That's almost 13 percent of the nation's gross domestic product — a level not seen since 1945.

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    "Shift"? (5.00 / 9) (#1)
    by jbindc on Tue May 19, 2009 at 07:47:25 AM EST
    This is silly.  Obama was never to the left of anybody.  The fact that his true colors are coming out now (or rather, that the press is paying attention) makes this whole "shift" theme hilarious.

    And, of course they will (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:34:57 AM EST
    "In the end, the progressives, the left in Congress, will support the president"

    They supported enough of Bush's policies, why wouldn't they support the "D" on everything.

    Until Obama does what he said he would on FISA, my lack of trust and missing enthusiasm for him will remain solid.


    Parent

    So funny (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by ruffian on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:19:44 PM EST
    More like the press's shift to listening to what Obama is actually saying.

    Parent
    Your true colors, true colors, true colors (none / 0) (#20)
    by jawbone on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:25:49 AM EST
    Shining through.

    Parent
    That half a loaf (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by WS on Tue May 19, 2009 at 07:47:52 AM EST
    on health care better contain a public option.  

    A whole loaf is better than half (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by lambert on Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:10:31 AM EST
    Just saying.

    Parent
    Moreover, (none / 0) (#15)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:06:31 AM EST
    what is the whole loaf to start with?  a pity if pita.

    Parent
    When was whole Loaf an option (none / 0) (#28)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:47:43 AM EST
    I mean last time I check Pierre Trudeau wasn't running, and the only major canidate who wasn't a big-time recipient of Health Care industry funds was Edwards and we all know right now that his canidacy was ticking time bomb.

    Parent
    Hope is not a Plan (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by kidneystones on Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:20:56 AM EST
    Personally, it seems a year or so two early to judge the effects of Obama's efforts to get the economy moving. I was pleased he decided not to jam his bible under everyone's nose as past presidents so frequently have and he has little choice but to try to ride many of the tigers set loose over the last eight years. There's something to be said for change, even if it's only the appearance of change.

    The problem isn't just one of left/right. Dems gave voters a choice between hope and experience. Voters chose hope. Each month that the economy does not improve, each month the number of jobless rises, and home starts fall, voters begin to question the wisdom of betting the future on hope.

    I expect the many bright people working to fix the problems (no facetiousness intended) are doing there best. I also think that many among this group are wondering whether to exploit their knowledge for personal gain or advancement.

    Cleaning up after Bush was never going to be easy. I have never been convinced Obama was up to the job. However, we are now all faced with either wishing for his success or working to make sure he does not fail, because if he does fail, he's still going to be the richest ex-President evah!!

    It's the rest of us who'll be on the hook for his mistakes. I say keep the heat on.

    Hillary's experience would save the economy (1.00 / 1) (#21)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:49:16 AM EST
    in what way?  From the actions of Bill Clinton and Hillary's campaign manager last year, it is apparent that Billary was still imbedded in the trade policies that have helped destroy middle and working class opportunities (or just not in control of her people).  That is exactly why many voters didn't trust her.  
    The problem isn't just one of left/right. Dems gave voters a choice between hope and experience. Voters chose hope. Each month that the economy does not improve... voters begin to question the wisdom of betting the future on hope....

    Belittling public hope for a different way to run government doesn't do a bit of good.  Even if Obama isn't doing everything progressives want, even if the public faith is misplaced, that doesn't mean those people have lost the hope, the desire and the drive to change the course of our country.  I think any Dem president coming in after BushCo would fail.  Personally, I'm somewhat glad that it's not our first woman president heading for that brick wall.

    BTW. if you're so sure Hillary's experience would solve this mess, why don't you post some specifics about what Hillary would be doing different than Obama and all the ex-Clinton administrators.  If those plans of hers would be so different from Obama's, you should share them here so those of use who are not still hung up on the primary race can suggest our president and Congress implement them.

    So what are they, these great experience-based ideas of Hillary's that could save the economy?  


    Parent

    Of course when one (none / 0) (#25)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:14:25 AM EST
    had a deaf ear to what Hilliary was saying in the campaign because they were stuck on Hope they can't remember how she was different because they never considered it.

    HOLC for one. Her Health Care Plan was way different is another. She was honest about how some lobbyists were a good thing - something that Obama would never admit - yet his administration is filled with lobbyists now.

    People can still go back and look at her voting record on corporate governance versus what was good for the public good and you can see a clear pattern that she was never in the pocket of of Big Business in the way Obama is and WAS during the primaries - a fact that his supporters conveniently ignored.

    Obama sucked and lied all the way around. Even with Clinton who he said was old school when it came to foreign policy experience he lied and then picked the best person for the job of SOS.

    You help pick the wrong President. Inexperienced. Brash. Liar. No clue on economics. ETC.


    Parent

    I'm sorry (1.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:51:18 AM EST
    but just because you were a deluded follower who still hasn't realized that the policies of the first Clinton Administration helped cause the problems we now face is no reason for you to run down those who voted for the man who while not entirely reassuring in his first 100 or so days, has still been the most progressive president we've had since Carter.


    Parent
    The "most progressive President ... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:49:51 PM EST
    ... since Carter"?  Based on 4 months?!?!

    I'm curious, though ..... Is being "the most progressive President since Carter" supposed to sound more impressive than "more progressive than Bill Clinton"?  Because Clinton was the only Democratic President "since Carter," and (presumably) you weren't trying to impress anyone with the argument that he is more progressive than Reagan, Bush I or Bush 2.  Yet below you acknowledge that

    Obama's been a pragmatic centrist with extraordinary media and public approval- he's basically been late term Bill Clinton without the scandals.
    .  

    Soooooo, .....

    .... should we be happily impressed that Obama is a pragmatic centrist who is more progressive than Reagan or the Bushes?

    Parent

    I'm not saying that (none / 0) (#49)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:05:43 PM EST
    you should be impressed, only that the people who are downgarading Obama but at the same time look back on the Clinton years with fondness should be a little more intellectually honest.

    Parent
    How is it "intellectually dishonest"... (none / 0) (#59)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:54:47 PM EST
    ... to say positive things about the Clinton administration, yet be critical of the Obama administration?

    The two are notinconsistent.

    Parent

    The dis honest part (none / 0) (#63)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 03:46:32 PM EST
    is holding the two administrations to different standards- if one uses a single standard its impossible to critize Obama (without giving him credit for his accomplishments) and laud the Clinton administration for its accomplishments (while giving it a free pass on its shortcomings) and vice versa.

    Parent
    Who's advocating ... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 04:59:11 PM EST
    ... criticizing Obama (and ignoring his accomplishments) while lauding Clinton (and ignoring his "shortcomings")?  Obama's current "shortcomings" are relevant because he was sold to progressives as a fellow true-progressive.  Bill Clinton campaigned as a centrist Democrat and progressives never claimed anything to the contrary.  Beyond that, the criticisms in these articles is based on a desire to push Obama to more progressive positions, as he promised in the campaign.  You can go back and criticize Bill Clinton's positions all you want, but - unlike Obama - he's been out of office for over 8 years, he's not violating any campaign promises with his current (non-existent) policies, and there's no "holding his feet to the fire".

    Furthermore, it's disingenuous (at best) to claim to be merely seeking a consistent standard for Clinton and Obama, while at the same time insinuating that Hillary Clinton's centrist positions are based on "political cowardice" and Obama's centrist positions are smart politics.  Anyone still bringing up her position on Walmart's board (17 years after the fact) and admitting they were "angry" when Obama chose her as SOS is not just "seeking a single standard" of comparison, ...

    they're a Clinton-hater.

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Tue May 19, 2009 at 06:01:00 PM EST
    but, what an idiotic, bullsh*t argument: given the current military industrial financial (and campaign financing) status quo, a genuine progressive has a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting elected President in this country.

    And neither the half-a-degree to the Right Hillary or the half-a-degree to the Left Obama (or is it the other way around?), are progressives in any real world sense.

    Parent

    Well just because (none / 0) (#35)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:59:03 AM EST
    you are so deluded that you can't tell the difference between an elected President and someone who is married to him is no excuse for anything.

    Hillary and Bill are two different people and Hillary and her voting record show that. But you people NEVER wanted to acknowledge that because making them one and the same was your major talking point. Well it was false then and it is false now. That you continue to want to deny that show how disingenuous you are.

    And I got news for you. I am not trying to to run down those who voted for Obama. Obama is the one running down those who voted for him.

    Parent

    No offense (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:05:11 PM EST
    But when a canidate runs on the experience and record of their spouses administration then the drawbacks of said administration also comes into play, you can't just say: "Hillary was behind every laudable thing that occured in the Clinton administration, and opposed every thing that went wrong."  

    I could of course be mistaken- when you talked about Hillary's experience representing a choice you could have been talking about her 8 years in the senate, time in private practice as an attorney, and record as a Wal-mart board member, somehow though I think you wanted to include the years from 1992 to 2000 in that picture.

    Parent

    That's a whole lotta straw for such a ... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:26:26 PM EST
    ... little argument.

    "Hillary was behind every laudable thing that occured in the Clinton administration, and opposed every thing that went wrong."

    Who claimed that?!?!

    Parent

    I don't think there is any question (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:38:42 PM EST
    that when any person is exposed to a situation over a period of time that they have the ability to see what was right and what was wrong during that period of time. They have the ability to grow as a person, to learn, to gain understanding. Hopefully that applies to you also.

    So yes when you said I wanted to include the years from 1992 to 2000 in that picture you were right when put in the context of the paragraph above.

    You see the difference between you and I is you use the period from 1992 to 2000 as a political tool the same as Obama did to trash two people. But I see it as an opportunity for growth of a person who has lived and demonstrated that they have grown in every year of their life and a demonstrable record of helping regular people and not kowtowing to corporate America. You want to deny the obvious because it serves you in the same why denial served Obama. But yet in the end after trashing both Bill and Hillary, once he won the nomination he embraced them. He had the 'terrible' Bill campaign for him. He had the 'incompetent' Hillary campaign for him. He appointed the 'foreign policy' starved Hillary as SOS. He brought in the very same administrative people into his administration that he campaigned against. And somehow you find that admirable, upright and honest.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#48)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    to be honest appointing Hillary at state was one of the things (including the Tribunals, etc) that angered me but confirmed BTDs thesis.  I think Hillary should have been appointed head of Health and Human services where the very experience you laud her for could have been brought to bear- surely the lesson she learned the most from was Healthcare.

    But, no offense- shouldn't his bringing in those people you hold in such high esteem due to their experience be a giant in point in Obama's favor to you- I mean if appointing Hillary to State and taking in so many Clinton hand's bothered me, surely for you it was a reveleation that Obama was willing to take their experience to heart?

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#50)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    The NY Times did a long piece on (none / 0) (#82)
    by hairspray on Wed May 20, 2009 at 12:53:51 AM EST
    Hillary's tenure at Walmart. Its not the epithet that you believe it is.  If you had read that piece you would know just what she did there and it did not set their course.  In fact she tried to moderate it and suceeded in some areas. She was the token female in a southern state who was simply one of a roomful of board members.  Ever been in that situation? I doubt it.

    Parent
    Okaaayyy. So you can't stand Obama (none / 0) (#27)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:34:51 AM EST
    and voting for Obama means a person is stuck on Hope and therefore can't truly assess Hillary.  I think you're confusing some rabidly aggressive online posters (including many right wingers who deliberately posted anti-Hillary comments to "stir the pot" and divide the Democrats, as Rush Limbaugh directed) and those of us who made clear, well thought out decisions based on our experience with Billary.

    But again, please delineate those great plans and experience-based ideas of Hillary's that would rescue the economy.

    Parent

    Too Funny (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:49:11 AM EST
    Blame it on Right Wingers, lol. That is the same sophomoric nonsense that of the primaries

    And Billary?!!! They are two different people. Ask any married person if their spouse agrees with them on all matters including politics. That is such a sorry and uninformed comment to make. Look at Hillary's voting record on Corporate governance for starters. Then look at the "compromises" Obama made in the Illinois Senate. Quite a contrast.

    And then this silliness:

    please delineate those great plans and experience-based ideas of Hillary's that would rescue the economy.

    Sure. But first please delineate the great plans Obama is going to have in one year on any subject that will be so great. What a lame question to ask.

    The fact that you ignored two full paragraphs that partly answered what you asked and what I responded to tells me all I need to know about where you are coming from, and it isn't a pretty place.


    HOLC for one. Her Health Care Plan was way different is another. She was honest about how some lobbyists were a good thing - something that Obama would never admit - yet his administration is filled with lobbyists now.

    People can still go back and look at her voting record on corporate governance versus what was good for the public good and you can see a clear pattern that she was never in the pocket of of Big Business in the way Obama is and WAS during the primaries - a fact that his supporters conveniently ignored.



    Parent
    I don't support Obama's economic plans (1.00 / 1) (#60)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 02:31:03 PM EST
    and I've posted that opinion here many times.  My response was to your statement that insults voters who carefully and deliberately chose Obama over Hillary:

    Dems gave voters a choice between hope and experience. Voters chose hope. Each month that the economy does not improve... voters begin to question the wisdom of betting the future on hope.

    I'm not going to defend Obama's plans that I don't agree with.  But you are apparently unwilling or unable to defend the mythical Hillary plans that would be experience-based and oh-so-different from Obama's.  I think that's a bunch of BS.  Her plan would have been Geithner's plan (or someone like him) which is Obama's plan.  And to be frank, both the Clinton and the Bush Administration enacted policies that have led to the current economic crisis.

    I support HOLC, which was what Hillary et. al. presented last fall (not during the primaries).  Would she have supported it if she was the Dem candidate for president, or would she have stayed in alignment with whatever caused her to betray the little guys with her Yes vote on the bankruptcy bill in 2001?  I've written to my senators and reps asking them to support main street bailout instead of Obama's plans.  I've written a blog post, letters to the editors and many comments in support of the concept.  Have you?  Or would you rather spend your time presenting brilliant concepts like "Hope is not a Plan" and telling me I'm silly to ask you for how Hillary would be fixing the economy.  

    And by the way, Billary refers to the fact that voters couldn't trust Hillary as long as Bill was in the picture.  For all his popularity when he was Prez, he threw it all away with his juvenile behavior in the Oval Office.  He handed our opponents exactly what they needed to beat us.  I don't care about his sex life, I care about the dishonesty and manipulation and the political ramifications of his actions.  Our man got impeached for lying under oath.  Bill's weaknesses and dishonesty destroyed the legacy our party built and gave us Republican Rule, which led to the destruction of our economy, war for oil, torture policy change, etc.  He threw away the hard work of millions of Democrats, and from the information that came out about the Columbia trade deal in the makings this past year, I'd say he was still willing to squander his legacy, and Hillary's as well.  To me, Billary means we don't really know who Hillary is, which is a real shame.  

    Parent

    No, "Billary"... (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 02:48:59 PM EST
    ... was a phrase coined by the right-wing to conflate Bill and Hillary Clinton in the eyes of the public, attributing to her all of the "sins" that they saw in him.

    Most people - well, most Democrats, at least - are smart enough to recognize that.

    Parent

    I see you've become defensive enough (none / 0) (#64)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 04:43:34 PM EST
    to stoop to insulting my intelligence. "Most people are smart enough..." blah blah blah. I'm unwilling to worship Hillary and overlook her failings, so I guess that means I'm not smart enough to accept your narrow definition of "Billary."

    Some of us recognize that there's often a grain of truth in those right wing catch phrases, which is why they're so effective. Hillary and Bill are not conflated in my mind, but you guys feel free to keep declaring that they're actually "two different people!"

    After what Bill Clinton did as president, and with his involvement during the primary race, it was obvious to many people that electing Hillary meant empowering Bill again. I don't like what he did to our party and our progressive agenda. I know that's not a popular opinion on this site, where posters couch his behavior in such innocuous words as "indiscretions," as if to say "boys will be boys," or maybe, "Powerful Men have Powerful Needs!" I don't trust him, and nether did many other Democrats who voted for Hillary's opponents.

    Obama may not ever give us what we want, but you can be sure that the movement to reclaim our government will not end with him. If he fails, there will be another to take his place. And hopefully it'll be a better person than either Hillary or Obama.  In the meantime, Big O is who we have, and the more time we waste rehashing the primary, the less effective we are in holding Obama's feet to the fire.

    Parent

    See, that's the problem ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 05:34:25 PM EST
    ... with the "true-prog" Clinton haters.  It was never really about Obama, ... he was just a means to an end.  It was about getting back at Bill Clinton through Hillary Clinton, and trying to destroy the Clinton/centrist wing of the Democratic party.  You'll admit that now -
    Obama may not ever give us what we want, but you can be sure that the movement to reclaim our government will not end with him. If he fails, there will be another to take his place. And hopefully it'll be a better person than either Hillary or Obama.
    but Obama was sold as the only "truly progressive" candidate throughout the primary.  Now,..... maybe he is, maybe he isn't?  Oh well, .... we'll get it right next time.

    So the true-progs, who sold Obama as the progressive candidate and vilified the Clintons as Republican-lite racists (and worse), even adopting the language of the right wing haters ("Billary", "Clintonistas", "Slick Willie", etc.) now suggest we shouldn't criticize them for their use of "Hope" and "Change" to sell Obama and (more importantly) defeat "Billary"?  Now they want a "kumbayah" moment (while continuing their attacks) in order to "hold Obama's feet to the fire"?

    Uhhhhm, ....

    .... no thanks.

    Parent

    You're distorting what I said. (none / 0) (#73)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 07:36:55 PM EST
    Obama wasn't a way to get back at Bill Clinton, he was simply the best option at the time. If he fails, if he turns out to be a stealth Republican, we'll try again. All we can do is try to make the best assessment we can based on each candidates words and actions, and the people around them.  I've always liked and respected Hillary Clinton, but unfortunately I felt that I couldn't trust her to create the kind of government I want because of Bill Clinton's involvement and, for a lack of a better description, the Clinton Political Machine. When Bill and Mark Penn cruised down to Columbia last year, it certainly seemed that they were in the process of setting up a new trade betrayal of working Americans, arranging a pact between Columbian thugs and the next Clinton Administration. Billary in action. But how could that be if Hillary is the populist leader you make her out to be? She would never undermine those blue collar voters in PA she was courting, right?

    Look, Hillary's certainly on my side of most issues, and has shown she's willing to vote in the Senate in our interests, most of the time. But we have plenty of senators and representatives who do so ALL of the time, for a much longer time than just her two term stretch, and they're not attached to a powerful, manipulative, dishonest ex-president.

    I wish we had a strong female candidate who made her own way in politics and could lead our country with steadfast feminist and Democratic values. Instead, Hillary came to power in the Senate possibly because her husband bought the NY Hispanic vote by pardoning Hispanic terrorists. That is exactly the kind of politics that made Democrats look beyond Hillary to the other contenders. Heck, I originally picked John Edwards, who has the same disregard for the potential effect of infidelity and dishonesty on the Dem party as Bill Clinton had. We sure dodged a bullet dumping him.  Anyhow, regardless of who coined the name, the perception of the existence of Billary is widespread, and is what I think finally destroyed her chances.

    Politicians will be politicians, and Obama has obviously said many things that got him elected but won't pan out under his administration. That's disappointing, but we're here now, and I don't think it's useful to continue the "good Hillary, bad, bad Obama" discussion that occupied this site for so many months last year.  Let's just get back to work on getting what we can from the current administration.


    Parent

    So, in short .... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:49:03 PM EST
    ... you held her responsible for the sins of Bill and the "Clinton machine" (where have I heard that phrase before?).  Exactly.

    I know that if there's anyone the CDS crowd hates more than the Clintons, it's Mark Penn, but I couldn't care less that he was lobbying for the CFTA.  He's a lobbyist/PR firm CEO ... that's what they do.  I also could care less that Bill Clinton was in favor of the CFTA, since Hillary was the candidate, and she would have been the President.  She's what we generally refer to as an "autonomous individual," as opposed to someone sharing a mind with her husband, or "Billary," as some call her.  Hillary Clinton (the candidate) was clear in her opposition to the CFTA and never waivered, so while I appreciate your heartfelt concern for her potential betrayal of "those blue collar voters in PA she was courting", you needn't be so worried.  I mean, .... it's not like we're talking about NAFTA and she's already reneged on her campaign promise to renegotiate NAFTA, right?  That would be undermining "those blue collar voters in OH he was courting."

    Ouch.

    BTW - Still stuck on the fact that Clinton had an affair, huh?

    Shocker ....

    Parent

    You're distorting my words again. (none / 0) (#78)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:05:53 PM EST
    I'll try to be completely clear:

    1. Hillary as President means Bill Clinton empowered. The man who single-handedly destroyed the work of millions of good Democrats gets to be a public figure associated with the White House doing whatever he wants.  No thanks.
    2. "Billary" refers the combined problems these two create, it does not imply Hillary doesn't have her own mind.
    3. Hillary is not responsible for Bill Clinton.  She just can't control him.  Hence, voting for Hillary means enabling out-of-control Bill.
    4. Obama is absolutely deserting American workers by supporting trade agreements.  
    5. I don't care if Clinton had affairs.  I care that his stupidity took down our party and our progressive agenda.  BTW, getting a BJ from an adoring underling is not an affair, it's an abuse of a powerful position.  Sadly, he wasn't man enough to even admit he did it, hence his impeachment for lying under oath. He's both a liar and a wimp.


    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#80)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:30:50 PM EST
    Like I said, imputing Bill's "sins" to Hillary, hence the "combined problems these two create."

    The man who "single-handedly destroyed the work of millions of good Democrats"?  Sorry.  I'm one of those Democrats, and like the vast majority of them, recognize that Bill Clinton did nothing of the kind.  As a matter of fact, despite years of the Republican attack machine attacking him, and even after the Republicans managed to impeach him with a partisan impeachment vote, he left office with the highest approval ratings of any President ever.  Pretty amazing, considering the Clinton-haters think he "took down our party and our progressive agenda."

    BTW - Getting a consentual BJ from an adult who, by her own admission, went after him, is an "abuse of a powerful position"?  Funny, he wasn't impeached for that.  He's a "liar and a wimp" for not admitting to something that was none of anyone else's business?

    TSFW ...

    BTW - If lying about a private, consentual affair makes BC a "liar and a wimp" who "took down our party and our progressive agenda," what does lying about reforming NAFTA - you know, an issue that's actually relevant - make Obama?

    Parent

    Discussing this with you is like (none / 0) (#84)
    by MyLeftMind on Wed May 20, 2009 at 02:30:57 PM EST
    talking with a stubborn, petulant child. Every time I say that's not what I said or meant, you come back and say it is what I meant.  

    One more time: "combined problems" doesn't mean imputing Bill's sins to Hillary, it means Hillary isn't able to stop Bill from breaking the law or acting in ways that degrade our party. Hence, Hillary as Prez = Bill's actions can damage the Dem Party, again.  (Impute means to attribute the fault or responsibility to, or to assign as a characteristic.  Hillary is not responsible for Bill's actions.  But voting for her empowers him to continue to damage our agenda.)

    You don't have to believe that Bill's mistakes took down our party, but millions of people across the country have recognized that he gave Republicans their chance at the White House. I don't care if he had high approval ratings, I care that our Dem candidates were impacted for the next eight years. Democrats ought to be able to blow Repubs out of the water just on our populist goals and policies, except wingers get to use the mistakes of our leaders against us.

    Clinton's a wimp because instead of abiding by his marriage commitment, he chose to sneak around and used the Oval Office for his little ego trip. Patriarchal power imbalances permeate our culture, which is why we see that pattern. I guess you don't see the U.S. President-Intern power disparity as emblematic of a deeper problem, just like all those women pressured to have sex with their bosses, but hey, they're consenting adults too, it's all good...

    Regardless, Clinton's a wimp for not standing up and saying what he did was no one's business except his and Monica's. Instead he lied under oath and gave the Republicans a reason to impeach him. What a jerk.

    Reality check: Understanding the effects of Bill's actions on our Dem party and agenda does not make one a "Clinton hater."  It just affects our vote.  After your twisting and distorting of my posts, I have to say thank g-d your side didn't win.  


    Parent

    No,... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 09:49:55 PM EST
    ... it's like a child trying to explain that they didn't mean to say what they obviously said.

    "Millions of American believed he gave Republicans their chance at the White House"?  Strange, since apparently millions more gave him the highest approval ratings of any departing POTUS .... ever, based on his actual performance, not his sexual indiscretions.  The only people who cared about his affairs are the right-wing moralists who want to impose their sexual mores on everyone else, and they were never going to vote for a Democratic candidate anyway.

    "Patriarchal power imbalances" were responsible for Lewinsky's affair with Clinton?  Also strange, since by her own admission it was she who pursued him.  He's a "wimp" for having an affair and not saying it's "nobody else's business?"  Please .....that would have been political suicide.  You think that make's him a "wimp"?  What a surprise.

    A "reality check" from a Clinton-hater"?

    Now that's funny!

    BTW - Thank God that my side didn't win?  "My side" was Edwards.

    Yet another instance where you're wrong.

    Parent

    Ummm! Not really true (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by hairspray on Wed May 20, 2009 at 12:48:52 AM EST
    "Dems gave voters a choice between hope and experience. Voters chose hope."   Sorry but I was watching and it was the caucuses and the insider delegates who were strong arming the votes.  I don't think Obama won in the way you think he did.  We got him and frankly I am glad he is taking the GOP hits for a change.  But BTD was right, the press loved him and it made the whole thing easier to go down.

    Parent
    "Billary"? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:23:36 PM EST
    No "Slick Willy" references?

    Tooooo funny...

    Parent

    Thanks for completely mis-reading my comment (none / 0) (#69)
    by kidneystones on Tue May 19, 2009 at 06:10:50 PM EST
    Dems gave voters a choice: Obama (Hope) versus McCain (Experience). Suggesting it's too soon to judge the actual success of Obama's economic plans evidently isn't enough for you, one has to judge them a stunning success or provide a set of counter-factuals. Here's one: HRC's well-established centrism might, had she won, another variable, have kept the market from tanking quite so severely, with all the attendant knock-on effects.

    Obama voters will likely be defending their tactics and their decision many years in the future. Personally, I think smearing Obama critics as racists, as Jacob Weisburg, is one of the most profoundly obscene political tactics of the last hundred years. That's all unhappy water under the bridge now.

    The failure of hope allows Republicans to present a candidate in the future, as I'm sure they will, with considerably more real-world experience than the current President. But unlike folks who see this as a battle between Democrat good and Republican evil, I'm actually interested in the efficacy of policies and largely indifferent to the source.

    I supported McCain last time out because McCain presents nuclear energy as the interim way forward. I always thought Dems would trump McCain on the economy and I'm frankly stunned Obama could have made such a hash of it out of the gate.

    Your guy won. I've suggested that we help him succeed, in part, by holding his feet to the fire.

    Hillary is the racist face of America, or it it 'Billary'? That's an extremely repulsive way of referring to any individual. You're a peach.

    Parent

    My bad (none / 0) (#75)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:17:07 PM EST
    I thought you meant Obama lacked experience.  But OMG, you think McCain's experience would be a good thing?  McSame, the guy who voted for BushCo policies most of the time, the veteran who voted against the GI Bill, the man who would have put Sarah PushthebuttonforArmageddonin2012 Palin on the path to the presidency?  The guy who dumped his wife when she was sick, married a rich woman and now can't remember how many houses he owns yet pretends to be "just a regular American?"  What has his experience taught him except to support miserable Republican policies, like those against equal pay for women (Ledbetter Fair Pay Act), blocking equal rights for gays, committing war crimes in a war for oil, giving tax breaks to the super rich... I could go on, but I'm guessing from this Hillary discussion I won't convince you than no matter how much Obama fails, he couldn't be as bad as McSame.

    But here's another gem:  Nominating Hillary might have kept the market from tanking quite so severely.  

    You do worship Hillary after all!

    Just kidding.  BTW, I never said Hillary was racist.  Please remember that many of us chose Obama over Hillary for reasons other than skin color.


    Parent

    What's missing in this article (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by lilburro on Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:32:36 AM EST
    is the sense that Obama is garnering popular support for any particular initiative, namely healthcare.  It's missing because perhaps its just not there.  I think if he hits the ground running again, does a lot of town halls, and makes a major speech or two about healthcare, he can change the dynamic of the debate which is now a bunch of Congressional back and forth on what is possible.  Public demand should create the possible.


    Usually a good public (none / 0) (#8)
    by Fabian on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:10:47 AM EST
    relations push will do the job.

    The exception has to be President Bush's dog and pony show to reform Social Security.  That was a painful and laughable failure.  That might be a lesson for anyone who is expecting a strong second term for Obama. Better get it done now or at least before the mid terms next year, or else I'd put our chances for real reform at close to zero.

    Parent

    Big difference, though (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:24:03 AM EST
    The public never thought privatizing Social Security was something they wanted, and Bush was a terrible salesman.  A lot of the public liked his tough talk on national security issues, but he was never convincing on domestic stuff.

    Obama is a very good salesman and the public increasingly thinks the health care system is broken and wants something done about it.

    I'm in no way optimistic about the chances for truly revolutionary change, but I think there's at least a good possibility of making some kind of large step forward.  Especially if that "public option" somehow stays in, which it may well not, all by itself that will upend the health care applecart and make major future change possible.

    Parent

    Pretty (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:42:24 AM EST
    much count on the public option not being there. He isn't even going to get all the dems to go along with that one simply because he can't explain why we need it. And frankly I think the way his proposal is written for a public option (Yes, I actually have read it) has made that option doomed for failure. The easiest way and the biggest sale would be simply to open up Medicare to everybody.

    Parent
    Public option or bust. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Fabian on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:46:11 AM EST
    The private companies whine about the public option because it would change the playing field considerably.  Their most sought after demographic - young, healthy adults - would have have a choice other than the private players.  They'd either have to compete harder than they ever have to keep them or they'd have to compete for the other demographics and that means actually providing care.

    Now the private companies want you to be healthy and/or wealthy and let the government programs provide for the poor and ill.  It's hard to feel sorry for the private companies.  What other industry can skim the cream off of the market like that?

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:07:43 AM EST
    I'm going to have to quit politics. The GOP is winning once again with Obama constantly deciding well after all Bush really did have good policies. On the bipartisan blog I post on the GOP is estatic that Obama is basically conceding time and again that they were right to torture, that Bush really did have the right ideas on the economy after all etc. It makes my blood pressure shoot up.

    Gotta just say (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:51:39 AM EST
    This all really pisses off an ostracized PUMA.  And it wasn't the actual ostracization cuz I've been ostracized by less arrogant jackasses and I was all the finer for it. The arrogance though......the political uncivil primary war that earned us this Obama........grrrrrrrr.  His worshippers were so fervent yet hateful and contempt filled for others.  Sure makes it hard to ummmmmm have to wake up huh?  Didn't BTD warn and warn and warn them about the possible environment they were setting all of us up for having to survive, that they took an excessively active role in creating?

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:12:06 AM EST
    I think there's still a lot of anger simmering underground about all that. I'm tired of being proven right about Obama. Maybe he'll suprise me one time but his history of cowardice pretty much told us what he'd do once in office.

    Parent
    I didn't like his damn ambiguity (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:17:30 AM EST
    I never knew what it meant, I only knew what it didn't mean :)  He doesn't seem to think he needs to be accountable at all to his base though.....and ummmmm they are having a hard time not agreeing with him on that too cuz they beat the hell out of anyone who questioned him like a herd of frothing at the mouth rabid ponyless children :)

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:19:21 AM EST
    well IMO they created this monster so they'll have to deal with it. I'm like you. I saw it from the very beginning.

    Parent
    Cowardice (none / 0) (#22)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:59:02 AM EST
    What makes you think Obama is afraid?  Do you really think that's what drives him?

    That's like saying Bush was a tough guy, when he mostly likely was simply a puppet for oil interests and the military-industrial complex.


    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:03:42 AM EST
    he has a history of cowardly behavior and that's what I'm basing my statement on.

    Parent
    Personally (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:56:06 AM EST
    I find the embrace of the counterfactual by some desperate souls who couldn't let go during the primaries to be hilarious- sure, Hillary would have been awesome! I mean by almost any measrue Obama is the most liberal president we've had since Carter and he's done so while maintaining extraordinarily high levels of public approval- yes he's moved slower than I would have liked on some things, but by maintaining his approval he's eased future actions.

    Parent
    I don't know how Hillary would have been (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:05:06 PM EST
    That's not reality.  The reality is that the way that Obama supporters went about expressing themselves and supporting him was counter to being able to hold a politician responsible for jack chit.

    Parent
    There has been some dissent (none / 0) (#41)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:14:58 PM EST
    but any successful politician carries his base with him trhough apparent betrayals (the loss of this ability is what dropped Bush from 40-45% approval to 25-35%- his base basically took any action away from the pure party line as a betrayal instead of just accepting it- a large percentage of the people Bush lost late in his term were lost due to him being less brutal and authoritarian than they wanted- see the reaction to amnesty) be it Reagan and some tax raises, Clinton and Sex as well as Welfare Reform (the former would have rightly bothered feminists if a less pro-choice/liberal President had enetered a relationship with simialr power-imbalances, the latter would have outraged the left due to its betrayal of the poor), so while Obama has disappointed the fact that he's delivered on a number of other fronts (Leadbetter, Gag Rule, the move to close Gitmo, re-emphasizing science, etc.) as well as his personal appeal has maintained his core support.  

    Parent
    Hey it's your reality (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:47:08 PM EST
    and you are entitled to it.  It's just my take, but every politician is just one election away from unemployment if they eff their base and Obama has been telling his base to shove off real hard and real fast.  

    Parent
    If Welfare Reform (none / 0) (#53)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:10:28 PM EST
    didn't cost Clinton in 1996, I have a hard time seeing how anything Obama's done to date would cost him dearly in 2012.  He's delivered on a lot of things, and failed to do so on a relative handful.  

    Parent
    Well ummmmm, we were all either (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:15:47 PM EST
    in school and/or employed and our 401ks were starting to get strikingly dot com phat.  Very different times.  Very different political circumstances.  Very different presidents.  Of course we may all become too hungry to care about whether or not we torture in Afghanistan.  Who knows?

    Parent
    So just to clarify (none / 0) (#58)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:33:30 PM EST
    by the Left you mean the left-leaning middle class? Because a lot of America was adversely effected by "Welfare Reform", also I'd debate the "very different presidents"- I mean the more Obama disappoints the more he resembles Clinton- sure we all hope they turn out to be very different presidents, but when we feel pessimistic we fear that they are very much the same- Politically Gifted centrists who co-opt there opponents issues and in doing so destroy their opposition while maintaining their base due to less publicized but still relevant actions.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#26)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:25:09 AM EST
    BTD warn? He supported Obama. He said there was not a nickels worth of difference between Obama and Clinton and chose Obama because he was the Media Darling!

    Parent
    Gawd Lordy (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:57:11 AM EST
    Okay......BTD never gave them all a ton of crapola for being worshippers and haters.  He never said anything like that at all and I'm just pulling this notion out of my.........................

    Parent
    And while (none / 0) (#33)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:57:34 AM EST
    I hate to admit it, BTD's been largely proven right- Obama's been a pragmatic centrist with extraordinary media and public approval- he's basically been late term Bill Clinton without the scandals.

    Parent
    Well if saying things (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:52:16 PM EST
    like you oppose FISA and then voting for it is not a scandal you are right. If opposing enemy combatants right to fair trail is not a scandal you are right. If doing all the things that people here including BTD have criticized Obama on, and the list is way to long, is not a scandal then you are right.

    So if your measure of a good president is a Centrist , GOP kowtowing, Ben Nelson type who consistently says one thing and does another but didn't lie about a BJ in the WH then you are right.

    On the other hand there are those who actually count the things this blog has criticized Obama about.

    Parent

    Wait (none / 0) (#51)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:07:59 PM EST
    I don't get it was Bill Clinton a good president or not- because if he was a good president then it seems odd to judge Obama by a different standard simply because you may not personally like the guy.

    Parent
    I addressed Hillary (none / 0) (#52)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:10:07 PM EST
    Well for Hillary (1.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:13:39 PM EST
    we have no idea how she would have done- she had a largely centrist voting record, but admittedly she only had 7 years or so of experience in elected office so she may have been a stealth progressive who only voted for things like land mines and banning flag burning out of political cowardice and not real conviction.

    Parent
    So Hillary's either a centrist ... (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 02:38:35 PM EST
    ... or a "political coward"?  She "may have been a stealth progressive who only voted for things like land mines and banning flag burning out of political cowardice and not real conviction"?  Really?  Because when Obama fails to push a progressive agenda item, you claim it's just "smart politics":
    ... by almost any measrue Obama is the most liberal president we've had since Carter and he's done so while maintaining extraordinarily high levels of public approval- yes he's moved slower than I would have liked on some things, but by maintaining his approval he's eased future actions.

    Interesting double standard.  I don't recall Hillary ever promising to vote to ban land mines or to protect flag burning.  I do recall Obama's promise to filibuster the FISA compromise.  I remember the two-year lobbyist ban promise.  The promise to release the torture photographs.  The promise to end warrantless wiretaps.   There's military tribunals, continuing (expanding) Bush's executive privilege arguments, the renegotiation of NAFTA, .... should I keep going?

    What's funny is the same Clinton-haters who claim Clinton's centrist positions are the result of her "political cowardice" are only too willing to chalk up Obama's centrist positions (and even broken campaign promises) as "smart politics".

    "Intellectual honesty"?

    Funny.

    Parent

    Oh kiss my grits (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue May 19, 2009 at 04:59:22 PM EST
    Like I already said her votes on corporate governance are on the record and they make Obama's Illinois days look really bad. Of course you want to ignore that. But doing so doesn't change the truth.

    Face it. You kids have a lot to learn about politics. You made a mistake. You bought a smile and Hope and bought into he is a Black man.

    What you got is a perpetual smile that lied to you, continues to lie to you and is showing more of his White greedy side than his Black compassionate side.

    Truth is you look damned foolish trying to pretend he is still something he is not and will never be. Damned foolish.

    Parent

    This is the sort of condescension (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 06:36:10 PM EST
    that got old around February of 2008- "You kids got a lot to learn" yadda, yadda, yadda, okay bud you're the rational ones- I mean sure a large number of the "rational" ones supported a canidate long past the point of genuine viability largely because of some sort of nostalgia for the 90s- I get it, you're getting up there and its just not fair that you're generation only got two presidents, but suck it up and deal with it.  There is that condescending enough for you- I mean you seem determined to think that only your canidate could have had people who thought about and understood the issues, and frankly if you can't see the inherent offensiveness in that logic (which wouldn't be all that suprising given how many of that particular grouping can't move beyond binary left-right thinking) then I don't know what to tell you.

    Parent
    Votes of Corporate Governance (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 06:42:05 PM EST
    You mean like voting for the Bankruptcy Reform Bill- probably the single most significant piece of Corporate-Consumer legislation to face Congress in the last 20 years- yeah that was totally awesome- you know if you're a Credit Card company.

    Parent
    Be more specific (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Yman on Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:08:26 PM EST
    Depends on which "Bankruptcy Reform Bill" you're talking about, and which Clinton.  If you're talking about the '98 bill, HC opposed it and BC threatened a veto.  BC then vetoed the BRA of 2000 in December, 2000.  Then, in 2001, HC (along with 36 other Democratic Senators) voted in favor of the BRA of 2001.  The bill never became law.  

    When it came to the BRA of 2005 (the one that actually was enacted), HC missed a vote due to Bill having heart surgery the day of the vote (indicating she would have opposed it), while Obama voted Nay.  Both HC and BO voted Nay for closure of the BRA of 2005.

    BTW - In applying a "single standard" to Clinton and Obama, you may want to know that Clinton voted in favor of the Dayton amendment to the BRA of 2005 - setting a federal cap on the maximum interest rate credit card companies could charge.  Obama voted Nay.  Yeah, that was totally awesome ..... you know, ...

    .... if you're a credit card company.

    Parent

    Doesn't it make you wish you could (none / 0) (#76)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue May 19, 2009 at 08:26:05 PM EST
    just give politicians a lie detector test so you'd know for sure where they really stand, or more importantly, what their decisions will likely be in the future.

    Actually, we're probably not going to ever gain true control over our country until we merge representative democracy with real people power, the initiative process.  Of course, that has it's dangers as well, as we can see with all the anti-gay rights laws passed in so many states...


    Parent

    If one believe the lies one is telling, (none / 0) (#79)
    by Anne on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:14:55 PM EST
    passing a polygraph would be a piece of cake - and I suspect there are a lot of politicians who could do it.

    Parent
    This is the sort of condescension (none / 0) (#70)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 06:36:10 PM EST
    that got old around February of 2008- "You kids got a lot to learn" yadda, yadda, yadda, okay bud you're the rational ones- I mean sure a large number of the "rational" ones supported a canidate long past the point of genuine viability largely because of some sort of nostalgia for the 90s- I get it, you're getting up there and its just not fair that you're generation only got two presidents, but suck it up and deal with it.  There is that condescending enough for you- I mean you seem determined to think that only your canidate could have had people who thought about and understood the issues, and frankly if you can't see the inherent offensiveness in that logic (which wouldn't be all that suprising given how many of that particular grouping can't move beyond binary left-right thinking) then I don't know what to tell you.

    Parent
    Late term Bill Clinton without the scandals? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:00:20 PM EST
    I'm glad that BTD was correct about all that...... heh!  You and I either read different BTDs or one of us has been reading BTD the man and the other one has been reading BTD the dog :)

    Parent
    Um BTD (none / 0) (#39)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:07:26 PM EST
    said Obama would be a centrist who had appeal to the media and the general public- Bill Clinton was a centrist who had appeal to the general public but was loathed by much of the MSM, Obama has been Bill Clinton without said loathing- that seems to be pretty in line with BTD's prediction.

    Parent
    Okay.....I notice you take (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 12:10:26 PM EST
    something that BTD did say.  And then you wed it to a bunch of things that you say but that you want me to believe that he said.......and that isn't what he said....well, that first bit is but that's it.

    Parent
    Obama is barreling down hard on a murderous (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:10:00 AM EST
    image and a loss of soul.  I don't know what constitutes winning a war.  McChrystal is credited with why the surge ultimately "worked" though.....the use of his forces to assassinate in usually the dead of night different elements (also known as people) within Iraq that were leading the use of violence.  If they killed any innocents making these assassinations we'll never know.....it's all classified.  We still have lethal suicide bombings throughout Iraq and a steady body count from all sides to include our own.  The vaccum created simply became filled again.  Now Obama wants McChrystal to take over Afghanistan.  Didn't we not only lose Vietnam but also our very souls in the midst of the Phoenix program?

    If McChrystal wants to go all black ops (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Fabian on Tue May 19, 2009 at 09:18:49 AM EST
    in Afghanistan, I'd prefer we take the regular Army out so they won't have to be party to those tactics.

    My feelings are a bit mixed on the Taliban and their type.  The only way to truly defeat them is to wipe out either their support base (chunks of Afghanistan and Pakistan) or their leadership(black ops).  There's little point in using conventional warfare against them - it'll be slow, tedious and have limited effect.

    Plus I tire of supporting the corrupt government in Afghanistan.  Let's figure out how to smack the Taliban back to the Dark Ages, call it a day, pack our bags and go home.

    Parent

    Just me and my view (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 19, 2009 at 10:10:26 AM EST
    My military needs to only protect the civilians of Afghanistan from the Taliban.  I'd rather die protecting the innocent than lose my soul murdering the potential or suspected evil.  Course I'm Buddhist and this life is only a test.  I just hate flunking any test.

    Parent
    Protecting the civilians (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Fabian on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:01:25 AM EST
    is the job of the Afghanistan government.  And if they can't do it, then we are essentially contracting out our military as national security forces.  It doesn't sound so bad in the short term, but as the years drag by, it's another story.  

    (Plus the whole not speaking the language, not knowing the culture/politics problems that cause our efforts to always be second rate.)

    Parent

    Given Obama's aooarent interest (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Anne on Tue May 19, 2009 at 11:57:55 AM EST
    in adopting/continuing many of the Bush policies, are we now supposed to believe that the Bush policies were the centrist position?

    Well, go read Glenn today, you, too may want to weep when you are finished reading it.

    Jack Goldsmith has an article in the New Republic, which makes the case that Obama has managed, through packaging, PR and rhetoric, to convey that he is all about civil liberties and human rights, but his actions have only strengthened the policies and programs that Bush and Cheney started.

    From Glenn (emphasis was in the original):

    In his New Republic article today, Goldsmith reviews what he calls the "eleven essential elements" of "the Bush approach to counterterrorism policy" and documents how -- with only a couple of minor exceptions -- Obama has embraced all of them.  In those cases where Obama has purported to "change" these elements, those changes are almost all symbolic and ceremonial, and the few changes that have any substance to them (banning the already-empty CIA black sites and prohibiting no-longer-authorized torture techniques) are far less substantial than Obama officials purport.  None of Goldsmith's analysis is grounded in the proposition that Obama hasn't yet acted to change Bush policies, thus rendering a nonsequitur the response that "Obama needs more time; it's only been 4 months."  Goldsmith is describing affirmative steps Obama has already announced to adopt the core Bush "terrorism" policies.

    Just consider some of Goldsmith's examples:  Obama makes a melodramatic showing of ordering Guantanamo closed but then re-creates its systematic denial of detainee rights in Bagram, and "[l]ast month Secretary of Defense Gates hinted that up to 100 suspected terrorists would be detained without trial."  Obama announces that all interrogations must comply with the Army Field Manual but then has his CIA Director announce that he will seek greater interrogation authority whenever it is needed and convenes a task force to determine which enhanced interrogation methods beyond the Field Manual should be authorized.  He railed against Bush's Guantanamo military commissions but then preserved them with changes that are plainly cosmetic.

    Obama has been at least as aggressive as Bush was in asserting radical secrecy doctrines in order to prevent courts from ruling on illegal torture and spying programs and to block victims from having a day in court.  He has continued and even "ramped up" so-called "targeted killings" in Pakistan and Afghanistan which, as Goldsmith puts it, "have predictably caused more collateral damage to innocent civilians."  He has maintained not only Bush's rendition policy but also the standard used to determine to which countries a suspect can be rendered, and has kept Bush's domestic surveillance policies in place and unchanged.  Most of all, he has emphatically endorsed the Bush/Cheney paradigm that we are engaged in a "war" against Terrorists -- with all of the accompanying presidential "war powers" -- rather than the law enforcement challenge that John Kerry, among others, advocated.

    Glenn argues that by framing opposition to the Bush policies as now only coming from the far liberal left, and with the diehard Obama supporters still finding ways to agree with what he is doing, the Bush policies  - that translates to the Bush policies being in the middle and Obama now being there, too.

    Ugh - never did I suspect that it would ever be acceptable to consider the Bush policies centrist, and I am quite disappointed that Obama is managing to make those policies palatable enough, with enough people, that we are not likely to see a real reversal of what happened these last eight years.  If it doesn't change now, it ends up defining who we are.  And that may be the saddest and most dangerous legacy of the Obama years.


    And of course the irony is (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ruffian on Tue May 19, 2009 at 01:24:44 PM EST
    that the GOP  will still attack him as some kind of a raging lefty, even if he agrees with them.