home

"Other Than a Prisoner Of War"

Glenn Greenwald points to Sen. Russ Feingold's letter (PDF) to President Obama regarding, in part, the issue of preventive detentions. Feingold's letter is one I hope we can all applaud. For example, Feingold writes:

It is hard to imagine that our country would regard as acceptable a system in another country where an individual other than a prisoner of war is held indefinitely without charge or trial.

(Emphasis supplied.) I agree. It has been my view since the issue of "preventive detention" came into view (during the Bush Administration) that the issue of defining "enemy combatants" and establishing a proper process of review for such a designation by the Executive are the critical questions raised. To be clear, they are raised in Gitmo, in the United States AND in Bagram, Afghanistan. More . . .

In their critiques of Obama on this issue, commentators like Greenwald are accepting a GOP talking point that is flatly untrue - that President Obama's approach to these issues is a continuation of the Bush Administration approach. For example, Greenwald writes:

[O]n Meet the Press this Sunday, the same bizarre (though entirely understandable) pattern continued to assert itself whereby the hardest-core followers of George Bush can barely contain their admiration for Obama's "counter-terrorism" policies (National Review's Rich Lowry: "it's kind of a funny debate because Obama has embraced the essentials of the Bush counterterrorism program. I think that program worked, I think it's wise of him to do that and it, it reflects some admirable kind of flexibility and pragmatism").

Just because Rich Lowry says it does not make it true. The Bush Administration policy on counterterrorism was beaten back by the Supreme Court over multiple cases from 2004 through 2008. It is absurd to argue that a policy that will be formulated by all 3 branches of governnment and that will expressly call for judicial review of Executive detention decisions in any way resembles the Bush policies. It does not.

But that is a real sideshow. We need not worry about what Bush did - we can judge what Obama proposes directly. Greenwald writes, in reference to my arguments on the issue, as follows:

As acknowledged by two of the leading proponents of preventive detention -- Bush OLC lawyer Jack Goldsmith and Obama's Deputy Solicitor General Neal Katyal -- the real purpose of preventive detention (contrary to what some are arguing) is not to classify and treat all detainees as "prisoners of war" (since some of them, by Obama's own description, will get trials in real courts and others in military commissions), but rather, to give "the government an overwhelming incentive to use trials only when it is certain to win convictions and long sentences, and to place the rest in whatever detention system it creates" . . .

(Emphasis supplied.) That may be how Goldsmith and Katyal see it and a system as contemplated by Obama now may create such a perverse incentive, but that does not negate that its purpose should be to properly and openly deal with the issue of the proper definition of "enemy combatant."

As for undercutting the incentive that may be created to avoid justice for detainees, I think provision can be made that does that. Specifically, if the executive Branch is required to justify to a competent tribunal such continued detentions every 6 months, then it seems to me unlikely that the Executive will WANT to hold detainees in this category. Indeed, it is not clear to me the preference, at least of the Obama Administration, is not avoidance as much as possible of placing any terror detainees in this category.

But on to the hearings and the discussion. To argue that the very plan of a hearing on the matter by Sen. Russ Feingold on the issue, knowing that the President accepts that Congress has a lead role on the issue, is not a change from the Bush years seems folly to me.

Speaking for me only

< Memorial Day Open Thread | To Speculate Is Rational >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    It seems to me that one of the real (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:14:55 PM EST
    underlying arguments to this is that an increasingly large number of people do not believe that there is any unifying "war on terror." I am personally sympathetic to that view.

    I think if you're going to treat people as prisoners of war, you have to say exactly what war you're taking about, and probably give some indication of what might constitute success. The fact that no one seems to have been able to do that is what makes indefinite detention potentially mean forever. Your 6 month review is a release valve for that, but I wonder if, in principle, that's really enough.

    I think there is such a war (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:20:43 PM EST
    and the combatting organizations are Al Qaida and the Taliban.

    Parent
    I agree that we're fighting AQ and the Taliban (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:26:10 PM EST
    Saying so would probably be better than saying "War on Terror" (terrorism is a strategy, not an organization).

    But in any case, there's still a problem because AQ and the Taliban are damn hard to define these days.

    Parent

    oddly enough, (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by cpinva on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:41:57 AM EST
    I think there is such a war and the combatting organizations are Al Qaida and the Taliban.

    this didn't seem to be much of a problem during wwII; we declared war on germany, not the nazi party, though clearly the nazi party was in charge. george bush could have easily gone to congress, and asked them for a declaration of war against afghanistan, with all that required.

    the fascist party, with mussolini at the top, ruled italy. we declared war on italy, not mussolini and the fascists personally. bush could have asked congress to declare war against iraq. again, with all that required.

    bush specifically didn't ask for declarations of war, because that would have incited a national debate, and calls for a new draft, something the republicans wanted to avoid at all costs, because they knew it would be their death knell.

    as it is, the geneva conventions already provide a mechanism for determining if one is an "enemy combatant" or not: a competent tribunal.

    or is pres. obama going to continue the bush decision to ignore the geneva conventions, as though we aren't a signatorie to them?

    Parent

    But, where's the "front line" and (none / 0) (#4)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:26:25 PM EST
    what are they doing to fight back? That battle in Afghanistan was for drugs.

    Since the beginning of this "war" we've seen very little effort or ability for the opposing side to fight for their side. They aren't an organized military. Is there even one US soldier being held as a POW in this?

    Parent

    The terrorists KILL (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:28:01 PM EST
    American soldiers - some of them by public beheadings.

    Parent
    I realize US soldiers in active duty are (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:48:59 PM EST
    at risk of being killed. I'm asking how we justify calling this a WAR? Aren't wars between opposing military where both sides are similarly armed and guided by leaders?

    The Iraq army completely fell apart the instant Saddam disappeared.

    US Soldiers have become the enemy to more than just AQ and Taliban in the middle east because of how we've carried out the attacks.

    Parent

    The Geneva Conventions (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 02:35:07 PM EST
    takes a broader view.

    Parent
    The difference (none / 0) (#34)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:30:49 PM EST
    between terrorists and military is the size of the weapons.

    Big weapons:  Military
    Road side IUD:  Terrorist.

    If military kills civilians:  collateral damage.
    Terrorists kill civilians:  Scoop up every brown skinned person in the vicinity of the incident and hold them undefinitely under "6 month unilateral review".

     

    Parent

    Selective memory (none / 0) (#54)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon May 25, 2009 at 05:47:45 PM EST
    U.S. Military: Big weapons
    Terrorists: Commercial airliners, truck bombs, bus and train bombs

    Parent
    Oh my god. You've got to be kidding. (none / 0) (#14)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 01:56:28 PM EST
    "terrorists" kill american soldiers.

    empire burlesque, BTD.  You sound famously ridiculous.

    Are you wearing a clown shoes?

    Parent

    Say what? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 02:34:35 PM EST
    Are you a caricature of a DFH?

    Or are you saying they don't?

    Do you have a clue what you are talking about?

    Parent

    caricature? here's two items from today: (none / 0) (#17)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 02:46:41 PM EST
    the snowman: (none / 0) (#18)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 02:59:41 PM EST
    BTW (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:03:38 PM EST
    Please use the links function properly.

    Parent
    the relevance of your links (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:03:17 PM EST
    to this discussion is not apparent to me.

    I will say that if you believe I was someone who EVER expected Obama to be anything other than what he is, then you clearly did not read me for the past 2 years.

    In other words, you are bringing coal to Newcastle. I guess it takes an appreciation of soot to follow your arguments.

    Parent

    You were right about Obama. (none / 0) (#29)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:20:11 PM EST
    He's a grocery clerk for empire.

    You do have an appreciation for soot that I and many others persistently fail to have.  Kudos on that.  I admit that my reserved optimism was completely unjustified.

    Still, that argument about "soldiers being killed..."  I think you can "up your game" on that one.  After all, you're not a grocer's clerk, are you?

    Parent

    A question (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:22:53 PM EST
    Is it your position that Al Qaida has not killed American soldiers and civilians in acts which intend a political effect?

    Do you disbelieve al Qaida and the Taliban when they state that they are in armed conflict with the United States? If so, why?

    Parent

    2 questions (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:23:06 PM EST
    excuse me...what's the Pentagon's budget again? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:26:51 PM EST
    We owned the world, until we bankrupted it.

    al Qaeda?  The Taliban?  You jest.

    Parent

    I do not (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:32:35 PM EST
    And you did not answer either of my questions.

    Parent
    Is it your position that the US does not kill (none / 0) (#38)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:44:00 PM EST
    people for political effect?  Shock and awe, so to speak?  Seriously, are you kidding?

    Who created al Qaeda?  Carter or Reagan?  

    Parent

    To clarify: Yours is not an argument that can (none / 0) (#42)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:03:27 PM EST
    be won on "enlightenment principles."  To argue that it's okay to bonk people over the head in order to control their resources is not an argument that can be won.  Unpossible.

    If one wants to dispense with the enlightenment, and make an evolutionary argument, it is quite the winner.  If you want to argue the merits of "Nature Red in Tooth and Claw," it is a very robust line of reasoning.  In that respect, I strongly endorse Colin Powell and Dick Cheney and torture.  And Barack Obama for that matter.

    However, even that argument (the selfish gene), as robust as it seems on its face, ignores the complications of group selection.

    Parent

    The US engages in combat (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:06:30 PM EST
    And oftentimes violates the laws of war.

    I understand that.

    Parent

    true, but it's not just that it violates the laws (none / 0) (#47)
    by Compound F on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:20:59 PM EST
    of war: as acts of aggression, it contains the "accumulated evil of the whole."

    Parent
    Wasn't the Bush Administration (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:44:09 PM EST
    pretty clear that they didn't want to classify these "detainees" as POWs because they didn't want to have to follow international laws with respect to treatment and priviledges that would have come along with the POW moniker?

    I think that was sort of the whole point of creating this new class of prisoners.

    As a Dick Cheney bonus, it also happens to be a lot easier to torture people without scrutiny too.

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:48:33 PM EST
    It surprises me that so many forget that.

    Parent
    Well sure (none / 0) (#10)
    by andgarden on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:49:55 PM EST
    But I don't really know how that changes what the new regime will do.

    Parent
    How do you (none / 0) (#40)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:00:51 PM EST
    classify them as POW's when under the laws of warfare (Geneva Conventions) they do not qualify as lawful combatants therefore they don't qualify as POW's. They are unlawful combatants - more commonly known terrorists.

    Parent
    Well, terrorists and spies can be executed (none / 0) (#41)
    by andgarden on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:03:26 PM EST
    if there's sufficient evidence.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#48)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:25:52 PM EST
    They can be executed.

    I think there is a legitimate case to be made that
    that while US terrorists and spies who commit crimes against the US should be tried in our judicial system, that foreign terrorists and spies who commit their crimes against the US or US allies on foreign soil should not be tried in our judicial system.

    Parent

    The American Patriots in the (none / 0) (#67)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue May 26, 2009 at 10:41:54 AM EST
    Revolutionary War were for all intents and purposes "unlawful combatants".  George Washington was really pissed too when the British chose to treat them as such and not adhere to proper rules of holding POWs.

    Besides, it was the United States that declared a "War on Terror".  All of this is silly semantics and we should have taken the high road and prosecuted them as terrorists in our court system.  Instead we took the low road and abducted people, held them without charges and tortured them.  It was a bad decision.

    Parent

    I have no doubt that an (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2009 at 12:35:35 PM EST
    executive branch that made the initial decision to continue to hold these in-limbo detainees would have no trouble justifying their continued detention every six months.  The question is, whether the tribunal to which the justification is being made would be a rubber stamp, or would be a legitimate body that could and would override a request for continued detention.

    Finally, with all due respect, I appreciate that you can and have defined what the issues and focus should be, but I am not at all convinced that Obama sees it the same way.  Nor am I convinced he can be pushed to see it that way, and then, with a Congress that cannot make up its mind whether to uphold the Constitution or pander for votes, devise a process that will be credible, and not result in, as many of us fear, a dangerous extension of power that is contrary to constitutional rights and principles.

    exactly (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Dadler on Mon May 25, 2009 at 01:06:25 PM EST
    perhaps if this panel were made up of truly impartial members, from nations not involved in this "war" (Polynesians, Norwegians, Costa Ricans, etc.) then perhaps I could believe it capable of fairly reviewing captives status and captivity.  I just don't see any logical reason to believe we are capable of this by ourselves.

    Parent
    Agree (none / 0) (#68)
    by Lora on Tue May 26, 2009 at 11:53:50 AM EST
    BTD says:
    Indeed, it is not clear to me the preference, at least of the Obama Administration, is not avoidance as much as possible of placing any terror detainees in this category.

    Why place any detainees in this category?

    Parent

    Greenwald's conclusion (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by oldpro on Mon May 25, 2009 at 01:29:46 PM EST
    "Feingold's last point -- that the more Obama embraces radical Bush/Cheney polices, the more entrenched they become as bipartisan consensus -- is critically important, and extends to other policies as well, from the use of state secrets to block judicial review of executive branch lawbreaking, the concealment of evidence of government crimes, the veneration of "looking-forward political harmony" over the rule of law in cases of extreme government lawbreaking, and the denial of habeas corpus rights to individuals we abduct and transport to a war zone (such as Bagram)."

    Where does it all end?  I don't know the answer...

    I think that overdramtizes the issue (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:07:08 PM EST
    The definition of combatants is the issue.

    to me the issue of military commissions is by far the more serious problem Obama presents. I see no argument n support of them.

    Parent

    To focus on this one issue - (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:11:17 PM EST
    that of preventive detention, and the definition of prisoner of war - and either ignore all of the other actions Obama has taken that are continuations of Bush policy, or treat those policy decisions as being able to be separated from the whole - is extremely short-sighted, in my opinion.

    I don't think these things can be separated, and I don't think that to consider them as a whole is to overdramatize the importance of any one of them.  

    Taking a holistic approach to the preservation of freedom and justice is as important as taking a holistic approach to one's health; in and of itself, a bad headache can be nothing - perhaps two Advil will make it go away.  But look at the headache in light of other symptoms, and it changes not only how one treats the headache, but spurs treatment for the underlying cause.

    With each new decision Obama makes that patterns his presidency after Bush/Cheney, and extends and expands the reach of executive power, the more it becomes imperative to fully investigate the actions of the prior administration, if only to draw some boundaries around what has become a fairly anything-goes approach to executive branch governance.

    And speaking of executive power, Obama's SC appointment may tell us a lot about whether he intends to nominate someone who is more likely to rein in that power (Wood), or someone who is not likely to do so (Kagan)- see Charlie Savage in the NYT; that nomination may be the final piece in a puzzle that will assure more power in the executive than a lot of us are comfortable with.

    Parent

    Missing the forest for the trees (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by pluege on Mon May 25, 2009 at 11:28:13 PM EST
    The definition of combatants is the issue.

    arguing definitions is nonsense - you can argue all sides of it Ad Nauseam and never come to lasting consensus. The issue is plain black and white morality: do you detain people - take away their inherent freedom - without proving sound cause? The are no linguistic gymnastics that can get around answering that question.

    Parent

    My guess is that the administration (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 25, 2009 at 01:31:51 PM EST
    would be reluctant to re-define the "war on terror" as  the war on the Taliban and Al Qaeda.  While these entities share fundamentalist religious, pro-Wahhabi Sunni Islamist extremism, there are differences that could come to bear on POW designations.  The Taliban are involved in a more circumscribed insurgency movement, fighting a guerrilla war against the current government of Afghanistan (that they controlled from 1996 to 2001) and now Pakistan--governments that we are backing. Al Qaeda is decentralized and is probably connected to other terrorist networks through autonomous cells. Their "guerilla" tactics are to create terror and then let the terrorized  dismantle their values in response.  Preventative detention may be among these responses. Moreover, tribunals could, in contradistinction to releasing a preventative detainee on the recommendation of the Executive, decide to keep the detainee just where he is in the service of political hysteria.

    Blah, Blah, Blah (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by pluege on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:11:51 PM EST
    obama different from bush... blah, blah blah... enemy combatant...blah, blah, blah...prisoner of war...blah, blah, blah...judicial review...blah, blah, blah... not like bush....blah, blah, blah

    these inchoate babbling sounds built upon  splitting hairs and nuance is counter-principled and is the very same platform of rationalizations and justifications as the bush regime. A few nouns and adjectives have mutated, but it is the exact same underpinning and purpose. The fallacies are legion, not the least of which include:  

    1. judicial review means NOTHING. Case in point: how many requests for wire taps has the super-secret FISA court rejected in 20 years or whatever it is? As far as we know - none. Case in point no. 2: what if judicial review includes crack pots such as scalia or thomas - don't tell me the judiciary isn't infested with them. Republicans have been working overtime for 30 years grooming the judiciary into a servant of wingnutville. Furthermore, there would be no incentive whatsoever for any judicial review to ever release a detainee, and based on what? new information? Is someone going to working on behalf of these detainees? There detention is already 8 years old. What would be the basis of release? Old age and decrepitude. This is an abomination.

    2. the principles are simple as hell: if you are going to take away a person's INALIENABLE RIGHT to freedom, you damn well better be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are an insurmountable danger to society at large. Not adhering strictly to that is immoral and a violation of basic principles of humanity and decency, not to mention the principles of the rule of law. The burden of proof is on the accuser.


    UNLESS (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:14:57 PM EST
    they are prisoners of war. Writing blah blah blah is not an argument and your utter disregard for the concept of a prisoner of war leaves me with little to respond to. If you address my points, I will try to respond. so far you have not.

    Parent
    He's addressed every one of your points (none / 0) (#28)
    by mcl on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:17:55 PM EST
    You're just too scared and too intellectually and morally bankrupt to come up with rebuttal, BigTentDemocrat.

    Parent
    Warning (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:21:13 PM EST
    One more personal attack and you will be banned form my threads.

    Parent
    Enemy combatants (none / 0) (#46)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:12:39 PM EST
    by their very nature as described in the Geneva Convention do not qualify as POW's. The POW argument for the vast majority of those held simply has no credibility.

    Parent
    That is incorrect (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:45:14 PM EST
    Geneva covers combatants who are not, technically speaking, prisoners of war.

    Beyond that, it goes to the issue of indefinite detention.

    Parent

    I read it differntly (none / 0) (#59)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon May 25, 2009 at 11:12:16 PM EST
    If you can provide a citation and a link I'll be sold. If no citation/link then I'll stick with what I read.

    Parent
    "I think there is such a war" (none / 0) (#19)
    by mcl on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:01:02 PM EST
    Just because you think we're in a war doesn't make it so, BigTentDemocrat.

    Many people claim we're in a "war on drugs." Should we start kidnapping suspected drug cartel members? Should we hold them indefinitely without charges and without trial? Why not? Lots and lots of people are calling it a "war on drugs," so let's start kidnapping klds who toke weed off the streets and hurling 'em into secret prisons. They're providing "substantial support" to the Mexican drug cartels, they deserve it. So lets' start grabbing doper kids in high schools and throwing 'em into secret prisons without charges -- after all, we're in a War On Drugs, and we'd better win it.

    How about our long-running "war on crime"?  Many people believe we're in a war against violent criminals -- read "Body Count" which posits the rise of utlra-violent criminals he calls superpredators.

    Since we're in a war against crime, we must start kidnapping suspected criminals off the streets and holding them without charges or trials. Every 6 months we can review their case.

    It goes on and on. Where does it end?  Can't you get it through your head, BigTentDemocrat, that this is barbarism?  When you start grabbing people off the streets and throwing 'em in a secret prison without charges and without trial, you have headed straight back to the jungle. That's not law, that's not justice, that's just kidnapping. It's Somalia.

    If you love the idea of throwing out the rule of law, so much BigTentDemocrat, emigrate to Somalia. You can live in Mogadishu and see exactly what it's like when you toss out due process and people get kidnapped without charges and without trial. It's called "the war of one against all," it's Hobbes' state of nature.

    Everything gets called a "war" nowadays -- war on crime, war on drugs, war on terror, war on everything. Where do we stop?

    Explain to me, BigTentDemocrat, how we distinguish between what you call a "war on terror" and what Joe Blow over there calls a "war on drugs" and what Jane Roe over there calls a "war on crime."   Until then, you're just some guy slinging slinging the meaningless jargon phrase "war on [X]" without having any facts or evidence to back up your unsubstantiated and panicky soundbite.

    Incidentally, I think America is involved in a war against pollution. So let's start kidnapping and throwing into prison America's CEOs without charges or trial. Every 6 months we'll review their case with a national pollution court and see if they can be released.

    A little different when the shoe's on the other foot, isn't it?

    Anybody can call anything a "war." That doesn't make it so. But it does provide endless latitude for abuse when we start throwing out due process, doesn't it?

    And even if we were in a war, America has been in war before, with far more terrifying forces than a bunch of guys skulking around caves in Waziristan armed with box cutters. We faced million-man Nazi armies and 3-million-man Red Army soviet hordes, and we never had to throw out the constitution and abandon the fundamental principles gong back 2000 years to Athens and Rome that every accused has the right to be charged with a crime, to hear the evidence against him, and to be tried before a jury.

    Why now?

    Just because 19 guys hijack some planes, we suddenly have to throw out the basis of Western civilization and abandon the fundamental right to be charged with a crime and hear the evidence against you and get tried by a jury of your peers?

    That's insane. It's crazy talk. It sounds like the babbling of someone on LSD.

    I feel like I'm in a nightmare. It's surreal. All of a sudden everyone is talking about throwing away the right to hear the charges against you and the right to face your accur and the right to hear the evidence against you and the right to a trial by jury which forms the basis of western civilization as though it's some kind of dinnertime custom, like placing your salad fork to the right, instead of a RETURN TO BARBARISM.

    You know, in central Amazon tribes, whenever an accusation of witchcraft is made, the matter gets resolved by poisoning a chicken and letting it stumble around, and the whoever the chicken falls down and dies in front of, they take that person out and kill him for being a witch.

    Why don't we use that method, BigTentDemocrat? That has as much legal rational basis as kidnapping some bystander off the street and hurling him into prison without charges and without a trial on the basis of some unsubstantiated rumour.

    Ugh (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:06:04 PM EST
    If you do not see the distinction between the actual armed conflict ongoing between the United states and the Taliban and Al Qaida and metaphorical "wars" on drugs and poverty, then there is nothing I can say that will provide you the comprehension to understand it.

    Parent
    Now you're trolling (none / 0) (#24)
    by mcl on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:11:18 PM EST
    No, I dont' see the difference, and you've just admitted you can't explain the difference to me.

    More people get murdered every year in the War on Drugs than have died in your bogus so-called "War On Terror."

    You're a troll, BigTentDemocrat. I've asked you repeatedly why we suddenly have to throw out the rule of law just because 19 jerks hijacked 3 jet planes, and you can't answer.

    I demanded to know how we distinguish between your so-called "War On Terror" and the "War On Drugs" and "War On Crime" and you can't answer.

    You're spouting pure codswollop, absolute gardyloo, BigTentDemocrat, and I'm calling you on it, and all you can do is stand there with your mouth opening and closing like one of those guppies in the local fish store.

    ok, i'll bite, (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by cpinva on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:56:44 AM EST
    what the heck is
    gardyloo
    ?

    Parent
    I'm trolling? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:13:40 PM EST
    That's rich.

    As for throwing out the "rule of law," if you think holding enemy combatants through a process consistent with the constitution and the Geneva Conventions is throwing out the rule of law, why should I take your comments seriously?

    I try to address arguments in a reasonable and fair manner, but when they come as you present them, there is nothing to discuss.

    Parent

    why indeed! (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by cpinva on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:55:38 AM EST
    As for throwing out the "rule of law," if you think holding enemy combatants through a process consistent with the constitution and the Geneva Conventions is throwing out the rule of law, why should I take your comments seriously?

    as near as i can tell (and stop me when you've heard this before), we are doing no such thing. in fact, we've violated so many domestic and international laws, it's gone from farce to black comedy.

    if shooting at, and being shot at, is your definition of "war", then we truly do have an ongoing "war on drugs", just ask the many victims. for that matter, we have an ongoing "war on crime" as well.

    i submit your definition of "war", for purposes of determining the status of those involved (or not) is too simplistic, if all it requires is the discharge of arms against someone else.

    Parent

    What a coincidence! (none / 0) (#55)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon May 25, 2009 at 05:55:25 PM EST
    I was about to characterize your post as codswallop and trollism.

    This is a new problem in the world, and the old terminology doesn't quite fit if you insist on being pedantic about semantics.  The old rules don't fit, either.

    Parent

    mcl (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:31:53 PM EST
    You are banned from my threads, because of your inability to comment without attacking me personally.

    All of your further comments, like your last one, will be deleted. You are of course welcome to comment in the post of Jeralyn, TChris and Ethan and in Open Threads. Do not comment anymore in my threads.

    So if China declares (none / 0) (#37)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:39:59 PM EST
    war on the US, then it will be okay to hold Americans prisoner indefinitely on 6 month review, as long as we call them prisoners of war....

    No.

    The Geneva Conventions were about Prisoner RIGHTS.   They were not provided with the intent to find loopholes to allow inhumane treatment of prisoners...which indefinite imprisonment is.

    I think a new meeting in Geneva needs to be held.  To unilaterally make determinations about how we apply the Geneva Conventions for the purpose of legalizing inhumane treatment of prisoners is not the activity of a country I want to belong to.

    Not only am I not a Democrat anymore, maybe I don't even want to be American anymore.

    You keep asking this question (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by andgarden on Mon May 25, 2009 at 03:48:29 PM EST
    but it is well established that you can hold uniformed soldiers as POWs for the duration of a conflict.

    Parent
    Uniformed soldiers is a key phrase (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon May 25, 2009 at 07:38:55 PM EST
    for me.

    I just don't get this. I'm honestly not trying to argue, I'm trying to figure it all out.

    1. We went into Afghanistan, took the Taliban out of control, and that seemed like the "appropriate response" to 9/11.

    2. Then, against millions of worldwide protests, we invaded Iraq using three major lies as justification. They did not have WMDs, they were not building nuclear, and they were not harboring or training terrorists.

    This was GWB's war for, as yet, unknown reasons.

    When did it stop being GWB's war and gain the support of democrats? (Those are public democrats, not elected.)

    Off the top of my head, I recall a lawyer from Oregon, and a Canadian doctor who were both arrested and detained as terrorists. The Canadian doctor, particularly, was detained in a secret prison for years and tortured despite the pleas of the Canadian gov't for us to let him go. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say they are not the only mistakes.

    So, again, why are there POWs in Bush's faulty, horrific, unsubstantiated war?

    Parent

    What andgarden said (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:05:10 PM EST
    uniformed soldiers (none / 0) (#65)
    by sj on Tue May 26, 2009 at 10:22:44 AM EST
    Okay, I must have missed something somewhere, but I honestly don't know -- and wouldn't recognize -- the uniform and related insignia of the US Army's opponents.

    Parent
    And adding support to my (none / 0) (#50)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:51:37 PM EST
    belief that the Congress is not going to be able to design a plan to oversee preventive detention, there's this, from cq politics:

    President Obama may not get a lot of help from Congress in designing the detention system he says he wants: something that can hold people who haven't committed any terrorists acts, but probably will, in a way that's consistent with the Constitution.

    So far, congressional Democrats have no idea how he can do that -- which pretty much leaves him with the burden of figuring it out himself. . . .

    The problem is, the congressional Democrats he'd consult on the issue don't seem to have any suggestions for Obama on how to detain potentially dangerous people without violating the Constitution.

    "I don't know," said House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers Jr. of Michigan, who would be likely to be involved in any discussions between Obama and Congress. . . .

    Democratic Rep. Jim McGovern of Massachusetts gave Obama "credit for taking the issue on in a straightforward way," but said only that "I'd be interested to see what he's proposing" on a constitutional system of preventive detention. "Maybe he's a smarter man than I," McGovern said, but "I can't think of a system that fits within the Constitution" . . . .

    "That was one of the troubling moments in his speech, which was generally very strong on the rule of law," said Sarah Mendelson, director of the Human Rights and Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "Either you have committed a crime, and we're prosecuting you, or you haven't. I know there's no silver bullet, believe me, but I think he's got some mixed messages."

    Emphasis is mine.

    Now what?  Executive order time?


    You think Conyers is going to stand in the way (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by andgarden on Mon May 25, 2009 at 04:55:03 PM EST
    of whatever solution Obama comes up with? I don't.

    Parent
    That wan't my point, and it wasn't (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2009 at 05:22:49 PM EST
    the point of the article; the point is that no one seems to be able to see where Congress can design a constitutional framework for preventive, indefinite detention.

    I'm sure you don't feel good that Conyers is scratching his head over this, and given that he is, as are others, apparently, it would be extremely disappointing to see Conyers just fold up like a cheap lawn chair if he truly does not believe there is a constitutional way to implement the program Obama says he wants.

    That being said, I don't have a lot of confidence that enough members of Congress will have the courage of their convictions, and so expect perhaps a bigger-than-usual clusterf--k, but a clusterf--k nonetheless.

    Sad.

    Parent

    Something normally (none / 0) (#56)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon May 25, 2009 at 06:02:03 PM EST
    actually has to happen before we get all "sad" about it.

    The fact that John Conyers doesn't want to go out on any limbs right now and Jim McGovern (Jim McGovern?) can't imagine a path means quite literally nothing at this stage.

    Perhaps McGovern is right and there will need to be a constitutional amendment.  Do you imagine that wouldn't pass lickity-split?

    Be happy, not sad, that any proposed amendment will have to go through highly skeptical people first.

    Parent

    Well, of course, it's not like we haven't (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2009 at 06:20:03 PM EST
    seen Democratic skeptics cave in when push came to shove, is it?

    I offered the CQ piece more to show that there is skepticism about what Obama wants to do, that there is puzzlement about how they could legislate something that would stand up to constitutional scrutiny, that there is unease with Obama's so-called plan-that-isn't-really-a-plan-just-words.  I think there is some significance in this idea not meeting with the usual praise, and I can certainly hope that it is the beginning of the Democrats finally locating their spines, but I am pessimistic enough to think it is more likely that even if there is some time spent pushing back on this, what will happen is what always seems to happen - lots of noise and floor speeches and hearings that in the end will devolve into the liberal wing of the party going down in defeat to the Blue Dogs and the GOP.

    And, sorry, but I do think that's sad.

    Parent

    And that doesn't creep you out? (none / 0) (#66)
    by sj on Tue May 26, 2009 at 10:32:16 AM EST
    Perhaps McGovern is right and there will need to be a constitutional amendment.  Do you imagine that wouldn't pass lickity-split?

    Enshrining indefinite retention in the Constitution?  

    It creeps me out.  And it seriously scares me.  But you say let's not worry about it until it "happens".  Whatever happened to the concept of preventative action?  

    Parent

    Maybe he'll give the Consitution (none / 0) (#52)
    by nycstray on Mon May 25, 2009 at 05:13:09 PM EST
    a pony?

    Parent