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Political Demographics, Identity Politics And The Potential For Progressive Policy Dominance

In Monday's meeting with former President Bill Clinton, I reminded him of a speech he gave in 1993 at an event for the reelection of then-NYC Mayor David Dinkins. In that speech, President Clinton discussed the issue of folks being able to "vote for people who look different than ourselves." It was a brave speech for the first year of a first term President. I asked President Clinton about the issue in light of the election of the first African American President in our history. In response, President Clinton mused about the new state of our identity politics and told a story about his own paternal cousins and their own struggles with identity politics (both for and against them.) It was an interesting answer and got me to thinking.

Regular readers know I am disdainful of claims of persecution coming from white males. The history of the world has shown that is has been a man's world and the last millenium belonged to white men. In a way, I think Clinton was giving me a slightly veiled warning about demonizing white males generally. I take his point. What struck me at the time is President Barack Obama is truly President Clinton's political heir regarding this aspect of politics. With one important difference - Obama operates from a position of political strength electorally -- the Emerging Democratic Majority predicted by Texeira and Judis is largely upon us and strengthening. But Democratic political strength has not translated into progressive policy strength. I'll explore these themes on the flip.

A few days ago, Matt Yglesias wrote about a Ron Brownstein article discussing, without saying so, the Emerging Democratic Majority. Yglesias wrote:

Roundabout 2005, a lot of people were working on the idea that Karl Rove and George W. Bush had cemented some kind of permanent Republican lock on the government. Many of the people doing this were rightwingers crowing about their own genius. But many seemed to be envious critics, simultaneously horrified by and admiring of Rove’s brilliance. Ron Brownstein and Democracy had the neat idea of running a “re-review” of several books from this era and looking back at where they went wrong. It’s a very interesting essay and I recommend it, but I think it has two flaws.

. . . The other shortcoming of Brownstein’s analysis is what Ed Kilgore points to here, namely the fact that you can’t really leave the governing out of the story. . . . The evidence . . . suggests that objective events in the world—as opposed to political tactics—have a huge impact on policy outcomes. Which means, in turn, that the actual quality of the policymaking coming from incumbent politicians winds up making a difference. Under the circumstances, one of the main things the Republican triumphalists missed was simply the possibility that Bush’s policies would work out really poorly and help drive a backlash. But that’s exactly what happened, first in Iraq and then with the arrival of a global economic crisis.

(Emphasis supplied.) I have much more critical words for Brownstein's piece than does Yglesias. Brownstein entirely misses the point that it was not the process of how Bush enacted policies that drove Republicans over the cliff, it was almost entirely the RESULTS of those policies (yes, I have written this line umpteen times now.)

Even while coming somewhat to this view, Ed Kilgore refuses to make the final leap:

None of these observations [by Brownstein] in any way contradicts Brownstein's contention that Rove's strategic failures, not Democratic emulation of his tactics, did most to make the 2006 and 2008 Democratic victories possible. That's generally true, though in part because relatively few base-oriented and pro-polarization Democrats thought of Rove as a role-model or embraced the cynicism of his approach to policy. But if we are to learn from Rove's mistakes and avoid repeating them, it's important to understand that "base" and "swing" strategies--or for that matter, "polarization" and "bipartisan" strategies--work or fail not because of their intrinsic value for good or for ill, but because they put any political party's values and policies to the test of voter preferences and real-world results.

(Emphasis supplied.) This paragraph from Kilgore makes no sense. Karl Rove was a wildly successful political operative. His client, the President of the United States, was able to almost wholly enact his policy agenda, the Republican agenda. And it was an unmitigated disaster. Rove did not fail. Bush's policies failed. Republican policies failed. President Clinton's fabulous speech at the Democratic Convention laid this out remarkably clearly and people like Brownstein and Kilgore simply do not want to accept it - RESULTS matter. That is why the Democrats control the federal government except for the Supreme Court. The question now is how to keep this control.

When FDR won his landslide in 1932, the coalition he formed had no knotty "identity politics" issues. Or at least he choose to not address them. The FDR coalition was blown up, admirably, by LBJ AFTER winning the biggest landslide victory since FDR's. By enacting the Civil Rights laws in 1965.

But President Obama, while enjoying the strongest electoral and political position a Democrat has seen since 1964, does still face the problem of "identity politics." For power in the United States does not stem solely from the ballot box.

While it is true that on many specifics, President Obama has basically repudiated his campaign promises, on a very basic one, he has not -- he did not present himself as a figure who was going to kick over the existing Establishment - which is white and male. He promised to navigate it. Sure, "Yes We Can" and "Change" are what the Left blogs fooled themselves into believing Obama was about, but the reality is Obama presented himself as an incrementalist who would engage everyone (and, except for the progressive base, he largely has.)

There is a reason for this - Clinton put his finger on it, the white male Establishment and the white male who thinks the Establishment is protecting him, are still together. This is still a strong power that impedes progressivism.

President Obama is, I think trying to take a page from President Clinton's old "I feel your pain" political style and applying it to the one group that can stand in his way. FDR used to do this with business interests during the New Deal.

This raises two issues for me. The first is for Obama - to what extent can he or should he trim his policies to placate the irrational fears of the white male Establishment and other white males who identify themselves with that Establishment (never mind that Establishment has been screwing them for decades and centuries). In the end, a politician will be judged on results.

The other question is for Progressives. Understanding that President Obama is acting like a politician, what will they do to make him have to address their concerns?

Remember, pols are pols and do what they do. I do not condemn them for it. But it is important that progressive activists absorb this lesson. There have been some encouraging signs that the lesson is being learned. Not by the Left blogs of course (I disagree with Eric Boehlert on that.) But by other progressive activists. Let's hope the lesson is absorbed by a widening group.

Speaking for me only

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    Lots to discuss in this (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:28:44 AM EST
    Last point first: I think gay groups (or at least their members) have unequivocally come around to the view that Obama is a pol and nothing more. The true believers are bellyaching about that, but too bad.

    As for FDR, LBJ, and identity politics, I would just point out that the biggest practitioners  of identity politics in American history have been southern whites.

    And here, I think, is our problem: even the non-southern white male power establishment feels closer to white males than the emerging Democratic majority. If they felt differently, they would behave differently. And I think in American history, that has happened only twice: with the radical Republicans in the 1860s (in no small part because they were largely New England liberals and southern blacks) and with Johnson's Great Society Congress.

    Finally, I take seriously Jay Cost's observation that there are really no permanent demographic political majorities. Of course, I think that the emerging Democratic majority will sustain itself for a while.

    Good comment (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:30:45 AM EST
    But I think Jay cost ignores the inescapable paradox of the GOP identity politics position. Rove found out - you can not feed the fears of white males while at the same time reaching out to Latinos.

    It is an unsolvable political problem for the GOP.

    Parent

    American racial politics... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:37:49 AM EST
    ... are the great stumbling block for accepting what teh rest of the industrialized world have accomplished wiht educational and healthcare policy.

    what role Obama has in changing that remains to be seen.

    Parent

    I think that's probably right (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:32:35 AM EST
    The answer for Republicans will be to make latinos white. That would not be unprecedented.

    Parent
    And BTW, only Jews have rejected the (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:33:37 AM EST
    political implications of becoming "white."

    Parent
    The party identification of being white? (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:42:24 AM EST
    Although, it's interesting that voting demographics are really as much  to do with income as ethnicity.

    Parent
    That's really only true with white people (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:43:37 AM EST
    disagree (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:47:58 AM EST
    find an AA republican and you will find an upwardly mobile AA.
    its only been mostly true for white people because they have historically had most of themoney.

    Parent
    That is generally not true in my experience (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by samtaylor2 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:17:01 PM EST
    Most black republicans are either military or religiouslly confused (mostly military)

    Parent
    The polling data unequivocally disagrees with you (none / 0) (#21)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:49:17 AM EST
    "problem for the GOP" (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:41:05 AM EST
    the democrats are solving all the republicans problems for them.  if they dont start delivering the republicans wont have to do a thing.
    and I also think you have far to much confidence that the current trend toward the democratic party was anything but recoil from Bush and his disgrace of an administration.
    by 2010 and certainly by 2012 that will be ancient history.  

    Parent
    Is the GOP going to nominate someone (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:42:56 AM EST
    who plays outside of the south? I doubt it.

    Parent
    who knows. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:44:21 AM EST
    As long as he pretends to be a centrist he'll have a shot at beating Obama IMHO.

    Parent
    you (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:45:27 AM EST
    and I for that matter, would probably have said Bush would not "play outside the south".

    I was actually talking more about the congress but its true of the ONE as well.  deliver or die.


    Parent

    Even less likely that we'll lose Congress (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:48:25 AM EST
    Probably not in 2010 (none / 0) (#24)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:53:16 AM EST
    But 2012 is a long way off, politically.  A lot can happen between now and then.

    Parent
    I think any numbers now are meaningless (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:55:55 AM EST
    the country is in a position that is worse than anything since the great depression.  no one know what will happen next.  public opinion can turn quickly.

    Parent
    whatever (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:53:47 AM EST
    mark these words.  if they dont start delivering Obama will find himself in the same position as Clinton did in 94 and will be out in 2012.

    the bloom is off the rose.

    Parent

    the problem is (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by CST on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:56:57 AM EST
    Obama and congress are failing the left.  We have no where to go.  Third parties are a nice idea, but aren't viable.  And republicans are abhorrent and even worse than the democrats.

    Parent
    "worse than the democrats" (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:58:32 AM EST
    you believe that.  I may have believed that.  many people here believe that.  the rest of the country is not like us.
    they will vote their short term interests.


    Parent
    People's memories may be short (none / 0) (#31)
    by CST on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:21:20 AM EST
    but not that short.  In 2010 and 2012 they will still remember who was in charged when the economy fell off a cliff.  By 2016 that will be old news, but not by 2012, and certainly not by 2010.

    Also, the fact that Obama and Congress are failing the left also means they are failing the people who are more likely to think "republicans are worse".

    I guess it remains to be seen what happens with the economy, but I expect by the time 2012 comes along some progress will have been made.  If things are still terrible in 2012 maybe not.

    Parent

    you have far more faith (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:26:32 AM EST
    in the memory of the voting public than I do.

    Parent
    I also think (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:28:11 AM EST
    if they start pushing the idea that they are failing the left and they "have no place to go" they will be in for a surprise.


    Parent
    In 2010 (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:06:55 PM EST
    people wont care about Bush. The Dems won a landslide in '82 after Reagan having a landslide in '80. People expect Obama to deliver. He's not. He has to produce results and obviously either is too much in a cocoon or clueless or whatever to realize that regurgitating failed Bush policies is NOT the way to go. In all fairness though, it's not just him. Many of the Dems in Washington are follwing the same path.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#48)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:28:51 PM EST
    You'd have to go back many decades to find a Republican party that wasn't awful in comparison with the Democratic party.

    But I agree with what you said about the rest of the country.  Most people simply don't pay close attention and have short memories.  Today most Americans have zero interest in history, don't really think through political decisions and for that matter don't really like politics.

    Parent

    also (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:59:55 AM EST
    staying home can be the same as voting republican.
    how many progressives do you think will stay home next time if things dont change?

    I say many.


    Parent

    Actually, it's possible (none / 0) (#41)
    by Klio on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:56:41 AM EST
    But it will require creating a solidarity among all men against the women.

    I shudder.

    Parent

    History agrees with you (none / 0) (#6)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:36:32 AM EST
    Finally, I take seriously Jay Cost's observation that there are really no permanent demographic political majorities. Of course, I think that the emerging Democratic majority will sustain itself for a while.

    The pendulum always swings back.  What differs is how far it swings back.  And to some extent, it should.  A lare majority of this country is in the middle, politically, leaning one way or another depending on the issue.  If the poltiics get too far left or right, it always comes back to center.

    Much was made about "the young people" who came to vote in Obama and transform the country, except, that really never happened.  And for those who were energized for the first time, only time will tell if they will work for the Dems and support future Dems (and down - ticket) Dems to help build the party.  That also did not prove to be true in this election - many of those votes were for the personality of Obama, and not for the Democrats' platform.

    Remember - there was a "youth revolution" in the 60s too.  What happened to them? Many of them grew up, got jobs, had families, and gave us the Reagan Revolution and the Gordon Gecko "Greed is good" 80s.

    Parent

    Nate Silver has shown (none / 0) (#58)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:42:51 PM EST
    that boomers are largely Democrats, those who first started to vote in the 80s are the most Republican of any group, the Millenials (under 30 now) are very Democratic, and those who grew up under FDR are Democrats too.

    In short, Nate showed a high correlation of who was President when people first vote and how they vote now.

    Parent

    A recent develoment (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:24:38 PM EST
    And not enough data to show a pattern.  According to your summary, Silver showed one generation - those that started voting in the 80's (like me) to now.  Historically, people have gotten more conservative in many aspects of their lives (not just politically) as they get older. They usually have more money and more assets they want to protect, and because it is certainly easy to be idealistic when you are in your 20s and have nothing and think all government is all good and can help all people.  Being battered down by the world and living in reality can tamper that down.

    Now it can work in reverse - someone is is raised to be so uptight and so conservative can open up a bit as they grow older and wiser and realize the world is not black and white.

    But since my original point was that the hippies of the 60s and early 70s who hated war and voted for the Dems for civil rights, womens' rights, choice, environmental policy, social welfare, etc. (but not LBJ's war in Vietnam) voted in Reagan in one of the biggest landslides in history.  with Reagan came fiscally conservative policy - lower corporate tax and less regulation, and things like social welfare (remember the welfare queens?) went out the door.  Reagan was re-elected by a huge margin.  It wasn't just rural southerners who voted for him. This was in one generation.

    And again - the election results don't show a strong correlation between young and new Obama voters being "Democrats".  This election may not really show what is true - a cat could have run as a Democrat and won this year, because people hated Bush. And I doubt many cross-over Republicans will be back for another dip in the pool - they just didn't like McCain.

    Parent

    all that plus (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:30:50 PM EST
    the fact that there are all kinds of variables at play right now in the country that have never existed before.


    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#68)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:52:39 PM EST
    Nate showed a current breakdown of party ID by age of all age-groups.  The most Republican of the group were the 35-45 (approx) age group--those who started voting or became adults under Reagan.

    The boomers are still democrats, Reagan nothwithstanding.

    The GOP likes to think that the huge margin Democrats ran up among the 20-30 group will change as these "kids" become more responsible.  That did not happen to the boomers or the FDR generation.  (This argument is yet another instance of GOP ideology trumping actual experience.)  

    Nate's point is that the success or failure of the President when one starts to vote correlates with future voting patterns.  Hardwired voting patterns from youth continue on.  Thus, the "success" of Reagan and the failure of Bush II leave indelible marks....And, the success of Bill also shows up among current party ID of those who first started to vote when he was President.

    So a successful policy matters.  But it takes awhile for peoples' views to change...

    And, it wasn't just Obama who got elected.  Democratic majorities in the House, Senate and Governorships....Democrats had a clean sweep....Bush's failures mattered.  And, given Nate's data, those who first become of age or vote during Bush II are likely to remain Democrats.  

    Parent

    Not quite (none / 0) (#73)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 04:56:17 PM EST
    First of all "boomers" are not the age group you are talking about - they are not 35-45.  Those are Gen Xer's (I know -I'm one of 'em).  "Boomers" most certainly did vote for Reagan after coming of age in the 60s and 70s (Boomers were born between 1945-1964, which makes them 45-64). Some may have come back to the Democratic Party but I but not a lot of them.

    And, it wasn't just Obama who got elected.  Democratic majorities in the House, Senate and Governorships....Democrats had a clean sweep....Bush's failures mattered.  And, given Nate's data, those who first become of age or vote during Bush II are likely to remain Democrats.

    Not entirely true - Republicans across the whole south flipped state houses, some for the first time in many decades, that they've been Reoublican majorities.  I can't remember the exact statistic (but I've talked about it several times here), but out of the 1900+ state legislators who were up for election this year, the Dems picked up only 10 seats. That's not a revolution - that's a country sick of Bush and many Senate retirements that left an opening to ride the wave of Obama.

    Parent

    Remember that the first boomers (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Spamlet on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 07:13:20 PM EST
    were born in 1946 but could not vote for president until 1972.

    Thus the oldest of the boomers first voted for president in the autumn of the year they turned 26. In the formative "campus unrest" year of 1968, they and the cohort born between 1947 and 1950 were college students, and the oldest of these boomers would have been college freshmen in 1964, when Mario Savio and the Free Speech Movement appeared on the Berkeley campus.

    Now, really, how many of the oldest boomers--along with the boomer cohort that was still in high school when the Kennedys and King were assassinated, and when Nixon was elected twice--voted for Reagan even the first time, in 1980?

    These are generalizations, of course, and I'm skipping over a lot of history and explanations. But if you want to see boomers voting for Reagan, you mostly have to look at people born at the very end of the boom (1958-1961). After that, we're not talking about boomers. We're basically talking about people born between 1962 and 1967 (the year that more or less marks the start of Generation X).

    The Reagan-loving in-between generation born between 1962 and 1966 is analogous to the "silent generation" that came of age in the 1950s, the generation to which John McCain belongs.

    Parent

    Of course, boomers (none / 0) (#78)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 06:57:12 PM EST
    are not in the 35-45 age range--they are Gen Xers and the most likely to self-identify as Republicans today--more so than any other group.  More so than the folks over 65--the GI Generation.

    When I was talking about the 35-45 age range, of course I was talking 'bout your generation. Why are your cohorts more conservative, more Republican than any other?

     

    Parent

    I am a boomer (none / 0) (#74)
    by Jjc2008 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 04:56:36 PM EST
    Of all my friends, acquaintances, colleagues and relatives, very few are republican and they were all republicans, or at the very least, "anti hippies" when we were young.
    Contrary to the "you get more conservative as you age", all of my liberal friends have gotten more liberal.  And the conservative ones pretty much are the same as when we were young, all about the money.

    Now my sister's generation, just a few years older than the boomers, started conservative, stayed conservative....

    Honestly the only people that I know who still love Reagan and insist he was great were the people a generation after me...mid thirties and forty somethings.
    Seriously, I know very few conservatives in my age group.

    Parent

    These gay activists may be the proverbial... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:40:16 AM EST
    ...canary in the coalmine.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#10)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:42:02 AM EST
    Obama's theory of political change is wrong and borderline incoherent IMO. We'll try to force him into another one.

    Parent
    "Borderline incoherent": (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:21:35 AM EST
    Good one. Incoherent on purpose?

    I did see a CNN headline stating the majority of people are judging Obama on what he does not what he says. But does signing weak tea proclamations qualify as doing?

    Parent

    I 'm thinking who's next? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:43:26 AM EST
    after seeing his behaviour on this one.

    Parent
    Obama is in a better position... (5.00 / 0) (#5)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:35:35 AM EST
    ...with his 52% than Clinton ever was with his "minority" government.  If there had been a run off I expect he'd have beaten Bush Senior--but this status really was a weakness in Bill's first term.

    I was having a chat with my girl on the commute today, and she asked me what I thought about Britain, France, Germany and Japan all had some variation of UHC and the US  not. ( I come from teh UK)   I suggested it might be because white people don't want to lend a hand to black people, and see a UHC system as a form of "welfare" for "shiftless inner city types". Other industrialized nations don't a have a cultural or ethnic issue that impedes universal principles on healthcare or education.  It might be that simple and crude that we have no UHC system.  

    Obama is part of that "white" power structure: Harvard, Columbia Obama etc allow him to be part of the club. But he's also seen as an Alterior figure by many voters both white and Black for different reasons. He will probably need to address this American attitude about universal principles at some point. To some extent Obama's election was an emetic that flushed out the racist fringe and the conservatives who exploit those sentiments--but on the other hand his term in office may confirm and buttress stereotypes and get i the way of policy reform.

    I sometimes think we might be better off if he doesn't push too hard on any issue and simply hope that congress is ideologically committed to universal ideas.  The legacy of his presidency will be rather huge as it relates to white attitudes about blacks independently of his policy reforms.  That legacy may turn out to be far more important than any policy he actually enacts because  race relations are so central to the reactionary character of American politics--if the racism falls away we might have a chance at UHC or proper educational funding.

    It's not the blacks... (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:47:36 AM EST
    ...so much as it is the "illegal aliens" for the the xenophobes/nativists crowd.  At least in my neck of the woods.  

    There is definately a sentiment of it being "welfare for the shiftless" though--no matter the skin color.  

    Parent

    if it's about Alterity... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:50:31 AM EST
    ... a Latino is as good a Black.

    Parent
    Additionally... (none / 0) (#23)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:51:52 AM EST
    ...the way it has been blocked historically--back to Truman here--has involved racial politics.

    Parent
    Although the demographic... (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:18:48 AM EST
    ...of the homeless and destitute is changing.  Many more whites, including females with children than before.

    It would seem these days it is just as much class politics as it is a racial divide.

    The saddest thing I read yesterday...

    Before I boarded the train, I saw one the most pathetic homeless people I have seen in years. No surprise here: New York is full of homeless people again. They are everywhere. They are younger and whiter. There are more females. And they are in really bad shape. It is awful. The line at the soup kitchen on my corner gets longer every day. I would guess this woman I saw today was in her late sixties. She was small of stature, but her legs were swollen to what must have been twice their regular size and they were also covered with sores. Even if she had shoes, she couldn't have worn them. She had just given up, plopped herself down on a terrifically busy subway platform, with what must have been every single one of her possessions in at least six different plastic shopping bags. I stopped to give her money and a woman standing behind her told me she had called the police. I didn't know what else to do. Every time I see a person like this I think, "This is someone's baby".

    Link
       

    Parent

    if it is just class politics... (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:24:26 AM EST
    ... The GOP would not have been able to obstruct.

    Parent
    Don't you think the difference may (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:29:01 AM EST
    be the original EU countries (including UK) and Scandanavia had UHC b/4 their ethnic purity was diluted by immigration?  Now the original EU countries afr. Trying to limit who gets benefits

    Parent
    When UHC like things were passed... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:55:05 AM EST
    ... into law there were fewer ethnic minorities around. So there is a tribal aspect about it

    Parent
    The failure to enact UHC is not racism (none / 0) (#52)
    by BobTinKY on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:55:51 PM EST
    it is because we have two parties that work for multinational corporations.  One, the GOP, work in an unapolgetic effort to directly represent the interests of the well heeled and Big business.  The other, the Democrats, get hired when the GOP oversteps and it is time mollify the public with gestures and rhetoric aimed at convincing them their interets are being tended to.

    Margaret Thatcher once said she wished Britain had two business parties like the GOP and Democratic Party in the US.  I thought at the time she was sadly mistaken, that Democrats represented labor and the less affluent.  And they do when compared to the GOP.  But is that really saying much?

    The Clinton and now first six months of the Obama Administration, with its continuation of the Bush Big Bank Bailouts and other capitulations to right wing orthodoxy, have made clear to me that the interests of capital are first and foremost served regardless of which party is in power, just as Thatcher observed.


    Parent

    it uses racism as a tool. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:29:05 PM EST
    ...

    Parent
    Not very effectively if 76% of the (none / 0) (#59)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:45:20 PM EST
    country says it supports a public option.

    Parent
    Apparently corporate support, when properly (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by BobTinKY on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:59:47 PM EST
    weighted by amount of campaign contributions, is significantly less.  

    If 76% of individuals support public option, with overwhelming Democartic majorities in Congress and Obama in the White House and we still get no public option, what else can we conclude?

    Parent

    Are you talking about (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by dk on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 10:47:56 AM EST
    economic policy?  Foreign policy?  Civil rights?  I think it matters.

    As far as civil rights is concerned, for example, Obama's conservative words and deeds with respect to the two major groups whose civil rights are still legally limited in this country (women and GLBT) seem less directed toward placating straight white men per se than in placating conservative religious people of all colors.  Obama's support for government funding for faith based orgs and religious education also fit in this category.

    What I would really like to see (5.00 / 5) (#43)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:05:51 PM EST
    strengthened is less identity by race or gender or region or class, and more identity with ideas and policies and political philosophy - so tht it matters less that I am a white over-50 female from the Mid-Atlantic, and someone else is a black under-40 male from the South, and more that we both believe that torture is wrong, that women should have the right to choose, that health care is a right, that privacy is important, that keeping religion out of government is non-negotiable, that addressing climate change is important, and so on.  

    More agreement on the issues and less focus on ourselves would be refreshing.

    And this is where I think Obama goes off the rails, and where I think someone with real leadership skills would be able to make more use of the power of the majority.  Sure, you need the ability to speak to people across all of these various divisions, but you also have to have the ability to bring those people together around common beliefs and interests and agenda - and then get those on the other side of the partisan divide to see that your ideas and agenda and policies are better: make them come to you - LEAD, for crying out loud - and stop doubling back and going in circles and changing the route to the goal by trying to accomodate those who aren't going to be persuaded.

    It's been enormously frustrating to see the nascent promise of a liberal/progressive agenda (yes, I know that Obama is not a liberal - that's another part of the problem) be squandered by someone who cannot commit to the principles that are so important to us.  

    We also may just have to face the fact that Obama was driven by and cared more about the prize at the end of the contest - winning - than he ever did about any of the issues being fought over.

    Obama: another chance (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Spamlet on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 03:10:52 PM EST
    to win.

    We also may just have to face the fact that Obama was driven by and cared more about the prize at the end of the contest - winning - than he ever did about any of the issues being fought over.


    Parent
    I cannot and probably will not let (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Jjc2008 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 04:59:01 PM EST
    go of gender identity politics until I see a woman, preferably a liberal democratic one, elected.  But alas, at 63 I do not think I will see it in my lifetime.  Just like the women's vote, I suspect it will take another generation until women get the presidency.

    Parent
    Results DO matter and that is why (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by BobTinKY on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:44:50 PM EST
    Obama's inclination to appease the right wing nuts is so dangerous.  As a result of this appeasement, Obama may well in 2012 be responsible for a failed health insurance reform bill, a failed bank bailout(s),  failed re-regulation of the financial sector among other as yet uncontemplated capitulation-induced policy failures.   Not to mention a potential quagmire in Afghanistan, which would not result from a capitulaiotn to the GOP but Obama's (and other Democrats) own efforts.  

    Concessions to the GOP on health insurance, economic recovery and financial re-regulation/bailout are putting success of his initiatives at needless risk.  

    Progressives need to support progressive primary challengers to send the message that we will fight for our agenda and pols, including the President, need to do the same if they want our continued support.

    I do agree LBJ blew apart the FDR coalition when he pushed for and signed Civil Rights legislation.  I would add, as I am sure most here would agree, it was well worth it.  Unlike Civil Rights, however, there is no short term political downside to doing health insurance reform right.  Most voters will benefit and recognize that benefit by 2012.

    If there is such a thing as: (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by mexboy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    the Emerging Democratic Majority
    Obama is working hard to dismantle it.  
    I'm out . I will be re-registering as an independent next week and abandoning the party that abandoned me.

    Good bye "Democratic" party.

    I know you think I have no place to go, but I voted Republican for the first time in my life, in the last election; something I would have shuddered at before The Dear One came along. You will no longer take me for granted or keep me under the bus.

    amen (none / 0) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    this is what it is going to take.

    Parent
    In a lot of states that just leaves (none / 0) (#60)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:51:50 PM EST
    fewer of us to primary and vote against Democratic incumbents who insist on throwing their party and constituents under the bus.

    And I don't believe in open primaries just for the record.  That's one of Karl Rove's leave behinds in several Southern states which has helped keep liberal Democrats off the tickets.  Many in the Blue Dog coalition have Karl Rove to thank for their seats.

    Parent

    I think we have seen that the DNC (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:57:19 PM EST
    will get the candidate it wants.  if that is Obama, LIEberman or Specter.

    Parent
    Specter is an opportunity tfor progressives (none / 0) (#67)
    by BobTinKY on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:43:56 PM EST
    if Sestak announces formally, maybe he has as I have been busy of late, I suspect progressives will quickly fill his campaign coffers.  This should send a message not only to Specter, but also to his strong WH supporters that progressives will not blindly follow our elected Democratic officials.

    And what's the downside of displaying disapproval of WH & Democratic establishment support for Specter?  Specter loses?  I can live with it.

    Parent

    IF he announces (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 03:20:40 PM EST
    I think he may be brow beaten out of even trying.
    I hope I am wrong because I think he could win.


    Parent
    I couldn't bring myself to vote (none / 0) (#81)
    by hairspray on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:08:30 PM EST
    Republican and probably will never do so in my remaining lifetime.  After I read two books "The Hunting of the President" by Joe Conasen and Gene Lyons and "The Woman who Wouldn't Talk" by Susan McDougal I understood the Southern white good old boys mean and vicious natures.  It isn't just greed and corruption that runs that group it is a kind of rottenness to the core that is indescribable.  I'd rather vote Green, Independent or not at all than vote for a GOP.

    Parent
    I understand and respect your position (none / 0) (#82)
    by mexboy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:20:31 PM EST
    My intent was to make a stand and show the good 'ol Democratic boys that I do have a choice and to take my power back.

    I'd rather live as an outsider than beg for crumbs from my "own" party.

    We always bit@h about the Democratic growing a spine and we ourselves don't.

    When enough people rise up and stop being obedient voters, that's when we'll have our party back. Now people have to work for my vote!

    Parent

    I think standing up is right. (none / 0) (#89)
    by hairspray on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Wherever you live get busy and start a reform for Instant runoff voting or ranked choice voting.   It allows you to rank your choices by 1-2-3 and more. It works like this: If #1 doesn't get 50% of the vote, the lowest vote getter (maybe #5) gets dropped and his/her 2nd votes roll over to the top candidates and it goes on until one cadidate comes up with 50%.  The beauty of this system is that there are no "spoilers"  If you have 3 candidates, often one will siphon off votes from one of the two top candidates.  Remember Nadar in Florida?  When this happens someday soon I hope, We can have some real choices at the ballot box.

    Parent
    Ask a mathematician, it's a terrible system (none / 0) (#90)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:52:55 PM EST
    IRV allows the possibility of you switching your vote to the current winner and causing him to lose.

    Parent
    The example was ludicrous (none / 0) (#92)
    by hairspray on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 05:57:29 PM EST
    What happened in the second election has NOTHING to do with the election at hand.  It is all hypothetical, meaning all three would run again.  In the real world, please!  Vote splitting, whether accidentally or deliberatley as in the case of Florida 2000 is far nmore lethal than this example.  And by the way I was married to a mathematician for many years.  These kind of "proofs" are games to obsessive mathematicians.

    Parent
    It's a very real problem: IRV isn't monotone (none / 0) (#93)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 06:20:40 PM EST
    Take four voting profiles

    1. A>B>C

    2. C>A>B

    3. B>C>A

    4. B>A>C

    Then suppose that the last voter changes his mind and decides to support the "winner:

    1. A>B>C

    2. C>A>B

    3. B>C>A

    Different winner this time!

    Parent
    Well, I have this to say about your (none / 0) (#95)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 01:23:33 AM EST
    second example, which is similar to what I said about the first one: the current system of elections most used in the US, plurality elections, suffers from nonmonotonicity much more than IRV.
     The examples used like the one you posted never make any sense, they don't mirror how real voters behave -- instead of using A, B and C, instead substitute Democrats, Republicans and Greens, or liberals, conservatives and progressives, and you see that their theoretical models have Greens voting for Republicans or Reps for Greens, or conservatives voting for progressives, etc. Their models only work when voters act irrationally, which shows that their models are irrational. And as I said before, mathematicians love this stuff.

    Parent
    Irrational fears? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jerry on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:30:35 AM EST
    Since your only concern is over irrational fears, I think you are not taking Clinton's point, or Obama's.

    "And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding."

    "I think that my daughters should
    probably be treated by any admissions officer as folks who are pretty
    advantaged, and I think that there's nothing wrong with us taking that
    into account as we consider admissions policies at universities.

    I think that we should take into account white kids who have been
    disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to
    have what it takes to succeed."

    and you may remember this one:

    "Russ Feingold, the only Democrat to vote not only against war in Iraq but also against the Patriot Act, doesn't become complicit in the erosion of civil liberties simply because he chooses to abide by a deeply held and legitimate view that a President, having won a popular election, is entitled to some benefit of the doubt when it comes to judicial appointments. Like it or not, that view has pretty strong support in the Constitution's design.
    ...
    A pro-choice Democrat doesn't become anti-choice because he or she isn't absolutely convinced that a twelve-year-old girl should be able to get an operation without a parent being notified.  A pro-civil rights Democrat doesn't become complicit in an anti-civil rights agenda because he or she questions the efficacy of certain affirmative action programs. And a pro-union Democrat doesn't become anti-union if he or she makes a determination that on balance, CAFTA will help American workers more than it will harm them.
    "

    For a guy that calls himself the Big Tent Democrat, you seem to be remarkable in your ability to throw people out of that tent.

    And absolutely with respect to you, I wonder why.  And I wonder how when Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both speak as to the legitimacy of certain issues, that you can still worry only about irrational fears of white people.  Do you think Clinton and Obama were disingenuous?  Or are they just wrong?

    (I do have a specific request to ask of you.  Could you link us to, or write a post about, your definitions and distinctions between progressive, liberal, and democrat?  I sometimes wonder if you are making a distinction (esp. between progressive and liberal) that I don't understand.)

    Progressive/Liberal (none / 0) (#69)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 03:09:55 PM EST
    I remember questionnaires during the campaigns that were to designed to clarify the spectrum of political belief.  I like Wiki's breakdown of progressive from liberal....

    ["Progressivism is an orientation towards politics, It's not a long-standing ideology like liberalism, but an historically-grounded concept... that accepts the world as dynamic." Progressives see progressivism as an attitude towards the world of politics that is broader than conservatism vs. liberalism, and as an attempt to break free from what they consider to be a false and divisive dichotomy.]

    Difference

    Parent

    Beyond Obama (none / 0) (#38)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 11:38:34 AM EST
    Obama is in a unique position with respect to identity politics, as I have mentioned before. He can seamlessly speak personally to Muslims one day, and white male WWII vets 2 days later. If he had been able to logistically throw in a trip to Africa in between, he would have done it.  And it is all sincere and none of it has to be in the 'I feel your pain' mode that was often mocked when Bill clinton did it.

    The question is, what next? He only has one more election. Is the DNC (I say the DNC, because as we have seen, they choose the candidate) going to try to replicate that phenomenon with someone else? Or are we going to use the Obama years to get past identity politics altogether?  We have a chance to do that only if the policies enacted work, as BTD points out. That is why it is so important that Obama not water down the policies into a moderate, post-partisan mush. Sadly, I fear the ship has sailed.

    Only strong policy successes can make identity irrelevant for Progressives in the next elections.  We'll see what happens, but I get less optimistic every day, since no Progressive policies are being enacted.

    well, (none / 0) (#44)
    by bocajeff on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:12:39 PM EST
    I believe demographics are an interesting subject. But to me, the one of the underlying issues of racism, xenophobia and anti-semitism has more to do with culture than with ethnicity and thus becomes diluted as generations move forward.

    Remember that the Irish were once discriminated against not because of language or skin color but because of religion. As generations came and went and the "irishness" became diluted then they were simply 'white'. Now, when we speak of Hispanics we are speaking mainly of Mexicans and Puerto Ricans. In three generations of mixed marriages and loss of native culture they will be considered what?

    But you do bring up something that is interesting: Illegal immigration is tolerated on the left because they see it as a way to move their political agenda. On the right it is discouraged for the same reason. Is this xenophobia or just political reality.

    The American southwest... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:17:33 PM EST
    ... has always had a huge Hispanic popluation that actually predates the arrival of the US.

    Parent
    Predating the US, yes. Huge? Not so much (none / 0) (#55)
    by DaveOinSF on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:19:13 PM EST
    The hispanic population of those areas of the American southwest that once were part of Spain or Mexico really wasn't that large.  The Spanish didn't bother heading to Alta California until around the time of the American Revolution, and, after a small burst of activity at the start of the mission era, there was little to no migration to California from Mexico due to conflicts with native americans along the route.  Similar problems were encountered in Texas; travel routes for possible settlers were blocked.  At the time of Mexican independence, there were only about 4000 Californios and 4000 Tejanos, who were soon quickly outnumbered by arriving immigrants.

    New Mexico was larger, though, with more Hispanic settlers, so I'll give you that.

    Parent

    New Mexico had about 60,000... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 01:36:58 PM EST
    ... centered around Santa Fe. It's large enough to be called larg.

    Parent
    Not quite (none / 0) (#64)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:02:04 PM EST
    always had a huge Hispanic popluation

    "Always." I don't think so. One of the problems that Mexico had holding onto Texas and other parts of the southwest was the sparse population is those areas.

    Parent

    No need to guess (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:01:31 PM EST
    One can look at actual evidence.  El Paso, Texas is a good place to start.  Is is and has been majority Latino for decades.  It has been heavily Democratic for a long time.

    The nasty rhetoric and tone of GOP attacks on illegal immigration is killing them.  I also believe that many Latinos have a greater sense of community and thus are more attracted to progressive issues.  The split among Latinos (to the extent one may exist) more often than not is a split between social-justice Catholics and socially conservatives Evangelicals.  Tancredo obliterates that split, however.

    And, I think that Liberals have a different take on illegal immigration because it is considered a human rights issue.  Few liberals or progressives hew to the GOP stereotype of desiring power or "big government" as ends unto themselves.

    Parent

    OK...I'll bite. What/who are they? (none / 0) (#45)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:15:38 PM EST
    "There have been some encouraging signs that the lesson is being learned. Not by the Left blogs of course (I disagree with Eric Boehlert on that.) But by other progressive activists."

    What are those encouraging signs and who are those progressive activists who might make the difference?

    indeed (none / 0) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 12:53:05 PM EST
    There was a lot to think about in this (none / 0) (#72)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 03:55:09 PM EST
    but I'm having trouble with the Clinton part of this story.  So he gave you a "veiled warning" not to demonize white men generally and you took his point.  By that I assume you meant that you agreed with him?  At least you agreed with him enough to think about modifying your behavior or your thought processes?

    What I don't understand was, what was his point?  I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of what you wrote and I found a lot of it thought provoking.  But those are YOUR points.  What was Clinton's point?    

    Based on your later comment that he "put his finger on it"  it sounds like his point was "don't demonize white males generally because the white male establishment is still VERY POWERFUL. That explains why Obama is an incrementalist and you should be an incrementalist too."  Is that the point you took?  You agree with that?  Obama is using the Clinton "I feel your pain" tactic and YOU should too?

    I'm just missing what the "veiled warning" to YOU meant.  (I get the whole problem for Obama)

    If you are planning to adopt this tactic it seems to be an abrupt 180 degree change from your prior tactic of pushing for issues relentlessly because they are right.  And by the last paragraph it doesn't sound like that is your plan anyway.

    So what was his point in the "veiled threat" to YOU that you took?  

    It seems to me we are only privy to a very (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 05:20:50 PM EST
    small part of President Clinton's sit down with some bloggers  Why did he call the mtg.?  Whom did he invite and why?  Was there an agenda? If so, what was it?  Much like the blogger conference calls w/Hillary Clinton, Plouffe, and others during the campaign, inquiring minds want/need more info.

    Parent
    I think there should be (none / 0) (#80)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 08:07:19 PM EST
    transparency in blogging!

    I don't really trust bloggers when they have private meetings.  Schmoozing in private ensures that "stories" are biased.

    When bloggers meet privately with Prez Obama, then I'll really worry...or maybe they have already.

    Parent

    I am afraid to disagree. (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 03:52:39 AM EST
    [But I do!  How do you suggest we proceed?]

    Parent
    Electronic listening devices. :' ) (none / 0) (#85)
    by Ben Masel on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 05:15:39 AM EST
    Why didn't I think of that? (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 05:32:24 AM EST
    Great emoticon, BTW.

    Parent
    $700 billion under TARP to placate white males? (none / 0) (#76)
    by lambert on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 05:14:32 PM EST
    Not buying it, sorry.

    excellent stuff (none / 0) (#83)
    by hhex65 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:58:51 AM EST
    It is great to see that Pres. Clinton continues to inspire.

    what will they do-- anything but implosion, please.

    Never been about progressive/conservative (none / 0) (#87)
    by pluege on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 08:05:36 AM EST
    But Democratic political strength has not translated into progressive policy strength.

    its always been about power and the disenfranchisement of the unempowered by the powerful. As we've seen with the Democrats since 2006 and now Obama, Democratic ascension to power means nothing for the average, and disadvantaged American as democrats are as easily corrupted by moneyed interests, and are as protective of the plutocracy as republicans.

    The rich have long waged classwarfare against the non-rich and with their control of all the information people receive through Big Media, its not likely to change anytime soon.

    The bigger problem... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Dadler on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:37:49 AM EST
    Is our de-facto one party system.  Democrats "won" largely because THEY WERE THE ONLY CHOICE.  We have almost no political variety in this nation.  So whatever one pol or prez or party does poorly, the ONLY alternative is one that is, sorry, not different enough to really stake any claim to anything but the luck of existing in a "democracy" that doesn't allow more than two lame wings of the same pathologically unimaginative corporate party.

    We are a nation, ultimately, addicted to gambling, in all areas of life, and politics is merely one casion vs. another.  Identity poltics are nothing compared to casino politics, which rule a paradigm addicted society incapable of, for one second, thinking outside of the box.

    And Clinton brave for making that speech?  Hmm.  As someone who didn't think Clinton did a single brave thing his entire presidency, I'd have to disagree and be very curious as to why ANY speech ANY pol gives is brave.  Bravery requires genuine risk.  Brave speeches, it follows, must rise to the level of offending a large swath of people to be considered courageous.  

    I think it is true (none / 0) (#91)
    by JamesTX on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 04:58:59 PM EST
    that if progressives want to maintain power, they will need White males. If they are going to have the support of White males, they are going to have to accept some part of White male culture and experience as valid. Currently, the two poles are mutually exclusive. Disenfranchised White males (now the vast majority) are likely to be good allies. They have ridden the progressive horse before when business got out of hand in the early 20th century. But it is impossible to gain the support of a group when your very identity is based on being "the opposite of that group". The identity of progressives has to be framed in terms of it's own articulated values, not just "anti-White male" identity. That is what George Lakoff was trying to tell us.

    This is most likely what Clinton was saying, although I certainly don't know.