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Monday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:33:44 PM EST
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Our morning thread is about to close (we close them automatically at 200 comments.) Here's another one until one of us gets done with work and has time to post. (BTD is in court and I'm dong jail visits. Maybe TChris will pop in, but he's a busy lawyer too.)

All topics welcome.

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    Monday Afternoon Open Thread | 186 comments (186 topical)

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    I've feel like I'm being cheated out (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by vml68 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:47:53 PM EST
    of summer with all this rain that we've been getting.
    Yesterday evening we had such a loud thunderstorm that my 2 year old dog who did not have issues with thunderstorms before bolted of the bed and hid under the chair where I was sitting.
    We just had another loud thunderstorm and he is panting like mad and looking sideways at the window like he expects something horrible to come after him. I am hoping this is not the beginning of anxiety attacks.

    its been a very weird summer (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:50:54 PM EST
    here also.  very cool.  it has been in the 60s and 70s here.  50's at night.  in freaking July.


    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by eric on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:55:30 PM EST
    too cold here in Minnesota, as well.  Tomatoes are way behind.  Many days have been pleasant, and it is nice to avoid those really hot days.  But it just seems like summer never kicked in.

    Parent
    I'll trade ya (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:59:22 PM EST
    Although it's been pretty good up unitl this point, summer came with a vengeance in the last week here in DC.  Today it's like 90 and the humidity feels like we are in the rice paddies of Vietnam.

    Give me October - football weather, sweatshirt wearing weather - and 50 degrees and sunshine!

    Parent

    its 80s today (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:58:24 PM EST
    for the first time in a long time.  I dont even remember how long.

    Parent
    for some perspective (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:59:56 PM EST
    I ride my bike to work a lot of the time.  it has not been warm enough in the morning for my breath to not steam up the face shield more than a day or two all summer.
    that is weird.


    Parent
    No kidding (none / 0) (#5)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:55:28 PM EST
    Some of us were looking forward to a little "global warming".  They definitely lied.  No wonder they changed it to "climate change".  Too much false advertising.

    Parent
    Hot, hot, hot in the Pacific NW (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:28:52 PM EST
    Today we begin a several days long stretch of triple digit temps. We usually get around 10 days a summer of 90 + degree weather, most if not all of it in August. Yesterday, July 26, was our 10th day in the 90s so far this year.

    This is a little too much heat for us. Many, many people do not have a/c, myself included, because we usually have so few days of really hot weather. Loaves and Fishes and some other groups are operating as "cooling stations," places with a/c where the elderly and the disabled can spend the day, and into the evening, in cool temps.

    Parent

    My 8 yr old dog did the same thing (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by ruffian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:06:21 PM EST
    the other night. He has never had a problem before. Did not get worried yeaterday, so that's good.

    My other dog never had a problem till we moved to Florida when he was 7 or so. The lightning and thunder here in central FL are the worst I have ever seen, and indeed we are the lightning capital of the US.

    Really is sad when they start getting that anxiety. Hard to see them so scared. Hope your doggie's is only temorary.

    Parent

    Iirc (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:17:07 PM EST
    They can be fine with T-storms when they are young and then as they mature decide they are not ok and in fact downright scary. My dog used to play in the thunder storms the first summer I had her. She's currently in her "thunderstorm position" at my feet between the couch and coffee table. She prob won't come out for awhile. She needs to know for sure it's stopped . . .

    If we have mild storms during the night, she sometimes lets me sleep. Other times, she whines me awake. It's like she knows which ones are going to get nasty loud. If I happen to not wake up, she moves to a concerned bark.

    Dot had a series of events that I think contributed to her fear. Hopefully your pup will decide they aren't that bad after all. Or at least only some are :) Does he have a fav chew toy or a kong? Good for stress relief.


    Parent

    Yes, he's got a couple of favorite toys (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by vml68 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:27:38 PM EST
    but unfortunately right now they are off limits. He has a frog and a duck that he is extremely possesive about and he is starting to get aggressive, so we really want to nip that in the bud. We've started to realise that he is like that with toys that have squeakers in them, even if he has already squeaked them to death and they no longer make any noise.

    Parent
    I speculated that maybe my dogs' (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by ruffian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:28:34 PM EST
    hearing was starting to go bad. Maybe he didn't hear all the ambient noise so much, so the loud noises startled him more. Who knows. Then one day the neighbors down the street let off a firecracker when we were out for a walk. Not on purpose or aimed at hime or anything, just happened to be outside at the same time. Poor Ruffy ran all the way home. That was it for him and loud noises. Hid under my desk or whatever chair I was in after that. I really came to dread New Years Eve and 4th of July just as much as he did.

    Parent
    trust the dog (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:32:50 PM EST
    My nine year old dog was very anxious during one thunderstorm last year, whining and pacing, asking to go out, come in, go out,...   He'd never, ever shown any shyness about loud noises or previous storms.  

    The radar showed a very strange front, unlike anything I had seen before.  Nothing happened down on the ground, perhaps there were atmospheric anomalies he could sense?

    Parent

    Managing Thunder-Phobia (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:41:35 PM EST
    Here is some info for those with dogs who have thunder phobia.

    My first dog had it bad, and I have dog friends who have it bad. Really painful to watch..

    The anxiety blanket and storm defender, mentioned in above link,  are said to work quite well. They relate to Temple Grandin's squeeze box.

    Parent

    I hope... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:53:38 PM EST
    your dog don't know something we don't vml...like something worse brewing than crappy weather.

    All this rain has sucked...I think I'll be playing softball halfway into football season this year with all the rain-outs we have to make up.  But at least it hasn't been stoopid hot and humid either...the energy grid has gotten a break without all the ac's working overtime.

    Parent

    I think dogs (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:57:39 PM EST
    should be listened to about such things.  my dog does not usually freak out during storms but he did the other day so I joined him in the secure hallway away from the windows for a few minutes.  

    Parent
    Absolutely... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:01:45 PM EST
    I trust my dog's sixth sense just as much as my five.

    Parent
    I really did not think about that. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by vml68 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:04:40 PM EST
    I think dogs should be listened to about such things.

    The wind was pretty fierce too yesterday and my dining area was flooded in a couple of mins. I had all the windows open and it is one of those circular,turret looking things.

    Parent

    From the Department of Duh... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:09:07 PM EST
    Today Gawker has audio and transcript of the 911 call regarding Professor Gates. This is Gawker's conclusion:
    We owe Whalen an apology. Relying on [Police Officer] Crowley's report, we called her a racist [snip]...It's obvious from the call that she didn't know that they were black, that she was calling out of an excess of caution, and that she expected that if it was their home, then a police officer would simply check their ID and be on his way. Which is what should have happened.

    Note to Gawker: barn door now shut, horse still gone.

    Can someone explain to me why it would (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:16:22 PM EST
    have been racist of her to say that they were black?

    When they thought she had described the men as black, she was called a racist. When they found out she didn't, everything was fine.

    Are we not supposed to describe people we think are committing crimes?

    "I saw a man or a woman, black or white, old or young, short or tall..."

    Parent

    It isn't (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:26:17 PM EST
    except perhaps to those that speak before they think.

    Parent
    The allegation (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:45:00 PM EST
    is that she only called the cops because she saw two black men, that she wouldn't have assumed it was a burglary if she had seen two white men.

    The fact that she told the cops she had no idea what race the men were proves that this allegation is false.  That's all.

    If she had said they were black, it wouldn't have made her guilty of profiling; but the fact that she didn't know they were black certainly serves to prove that she's innocent!

    Of course, lots of people guilty of jumping to conclusions on both sides of this particular issue, so let's hope it serves as a "teachable moment" for someone.

    Parent

    What Is Clear Now (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:56:19 PM EST
    Is that Whalen would not have noticed anything. An elderly neighbor of Gates asked Whalen to call the cops..

    Parent
    Controlled Test (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:57:54 PM EST
    the allegation that she only called the cops because she saw two black men, that she wouldn't have assumed it was a burglary if she had seen two white men.

    Interesting that some people would believe that with such confidence.  The only way to be make that belief stick would be by conducting a controlled test involving only this woman.

    Even if she had identified the two men by race, that wouldn't have meant that her call was motivated by that fact.

    I don't believe this woman's "innocence" or guilt is a proper idea.  

    Being a good Samaritan ain't easy.


    Parent

    I think you missed the (none / 0) (#140)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:09:40 PM EST
    "Someone should call the authorities - but I don't want it to be me?" discussion yesterday.

    Apparently, it's common enough to ask someone else to place the call, so you don't have to be the name on the report.  It happened to me once.

    Parent

    You're right (none / 0) (#183)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 08:46:53 PM EST
    I did miss the discussion.  Many, many chores and one of our four-legged family members was ill.

    Did a neighbor ask a passerby to call?

    Parent

    Multiple instances. (none / 0) (#187)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 07:02:06 AM EST
    I was asked to call social services on an elderly neighbor by her friend.  She was concerned, but didn't want to be a Judas.  (Elder care took custody of my neighbor until a relative could come to get her.)

    Parent
    ALSO (none / 0) (#48)
    by eric on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:51:50 PM EST
    it shows that the police account was wrong.  Crowley was apparently NOT told to be looking for two black men.  His report said that Whalen had told him that.

    Parent
    There seems to be some thought (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:16:45 PM EST
    that Crowley may have actually talked to the elderly woman, and not Whalen, and that that is the source of the confusion.

    Parent
    Confusion or something else... (none / 0) (#131)
    by BigElephant on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:06:44 PM EST
    Crowley's report stated that the person he talked to was identified as Lucia Whalen.  Apparently it was not.  He says that when he comes to the scene the lady he talked to said she made the call and that she had a phone in her hand.  So is the case then that the elderly lady is lying?  

    Almost no matter how you slice, something in that police report does not add up.  I'm not saying who is right or who is wrong... I'm just saying that even outside of Gates, the police report and witness accounts aren't adding up.

    Parent

    No argument form me, some details do not add up. (none / 0) (#143)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:11:44 PM EST
    My guess is that there was some confusion on Crowley's part regarding the two women.

    But, maybe not...

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#149)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:16:46 PM EST
    Another reason Crowley should be assigned to desk duty.

    An elderly neighbor and a young (40) olive skinned woman working nearby.

    Seems like those two people would not be easily confused for one another.

    Parent

    He runs the evidence room (none / 0) (#154)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:23:08 PM EST
    from the original articles written on this event.

    Parent
    Wrong I'm afaid (none / 0) (#73)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:23:59 PM EST
    Read the report. It says nothing about what race he was looking for. And the recording today of the police communications verifies that because the dispatcher specifically tells Crowley the caller could not identify the race of either man although she said one "may be" Hispanic but she couldn't be sure. The caller by the way was Portuguese and has olive colored skin herself.

    Parent
    We should all probably be very specific (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:38:11 PM EST
    when we use the word "report" from now on as there are/will be several/many reports floating around, but if you are talking about Crowley's police report, he did say that a woman (who he said he later identified as Whalen) called out to him as he climbed the steps to Gates' house and described that she had seen two black men.

    Parent
    Good (none / 0) (#120)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:58:11 PM EST
    That was probably the elderly lady who initially say them forcing the door open. The cops need to know that type of info.

    Parent
    Indeed, (none / 0) (#130)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:05:37 PM EST
    911 operators are trained to ask callers to identify race in situations like this.

    Parent
    Very Funny (none / 0) (#76)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:27:59 PM EST
    As in people jumping to conclusions that the police report could be inaccurate with not a thread of evidence that it was or could be. That's jumping to conclusions. Especially when Gates has had plenty of opportunity to dispute what it says and has not.

    Parent
    I get it (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:33:32 PM EST
    If you claim enough times that Gates has not disputed the police report, even though he has, you think it will become true!  Sheesh.

    Saying that a disputed police report might or might not be true is now "jumping to conclusions."  Sheesh.  Only on Planet Talex are such arguments taken seriously.

    Parent

    C'mon Steve (none / 0) (#133)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:07:46 PM EST
    given events in this country in the last three decades it's pretty obvious we've become the Planet Talex.

    Parent
    Your line of argument last night (none / 0) (#134)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:07:48 PM EST
    was way more than yo are painting it now. Add to that your 'proof' of a sirius radio interview where Gates disputed what was said and then another poster posted the link to said show which had Gates saying no such thing. The went your credibility.

    And oh yeah, this talex person. I've noticed with several posters every time you're in Sh*t up to you eyeballs you accuse them of being this talex person. Very funny and very predictable. I'm surprised you didn't accuse BTD of being that person when he corrected you on one of your posts this morning which took you 3 additional posts to weasel you way out of. heh.

    Yeah Gates was not out of line. Crowley just called for additional cars and a wagon within minutes of arriving on the scene because he was having a bad day. And then Obama himself said he felt Gates went a little overboard. Like I said yesterday you can't seem to add up the obvious. But then you never really think of the obvious.

    Parent

    Excuse me? (5.00 / 0) (#152)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:19:55 PM EST
    You are seriously contending that I made up the Sirius interview?  Wow.  Better call the cops on Ben Smith because he appears to be making things up too.

    Henry Louis Gates gave a long interview on Sirius's Oprah Radio to Gayle King, a sympathetic interviewer who also pushes him on the key points; it's worth a listen in full.

    Gates gives a detailed version of the encounter, challenging a specific aspect of the police report, that he referred to Sgt. Crowley's "momma":

    "I think when they put together that report they did some historical research and watched some episodes of 'Good Times' or something," Gates said. "What kind of black person today says [that] to a big white police officer?"

    But look, don't let this stop you from continuing to claim that Gates hasn't disputed the police report.  Anyone who thinks there are two sides to the story is "jumping to conclusions" as you put it, only truly thoughtful people like yourself appreciate that there is only one side to the story.

    As for your schtick where you keep coming back with new names after being banned and insisting you never heard of any of those other people who troll in exactly the same way, I hate to break it to you, but no one is buying.  Talk about a total lack of credibility.

    Parent

    So you really expect (none / 0) (#157)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:32:50 PM EST
    Gates to admit he said that? Would you really? I wouldn't. But I don't doubt that he did.

    As for your talex thing you bring that out every time you want to slime someone. Whatever. That is who you are. Always a wise guy. Always weaseling out of things. Most here can read your posts just fine. They know who you are. We all knew at least one of you in school.

    Parent

    "weaseling out" (none / 0) (#161)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:40:14 PM EST
    is a good description for a person who was wrong about whether Gates disputed the police report, wrong about whether Gates denied the "mama" comment in his Sirius interview, but now wants to say "well I'm sure he's lying anyone so it doesn't matter I was wrong."  Okay dokee.

    Still kind of amazing to me that you persistently attempt to deny any kind of connection with your previous nicks.  Nope, one nick gets banned and then it's just a total coincidence that a new nick shows up spewing the exact same sort of abuse and venom as the previous nick.  I mean we can disagree about issues, but this sort of denial of something that is evident to everyone, including yourself, borders on a sort of mental disorder.  Anyway I'll stop feeding the troll at this point.

    Parent

    said I wasnt going to talk (none / 0) (#168)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:54:31 PM EST
    about this anymore but the inimitable Hitchens chimes in and I like it:

    Race or color are second-order considerations in this, if they are considerations at all. I was once mugged by a white man on the Lower East Side of New York, and then, having given my evidence, was laboriously shown a whole photo album of black "perps" at the local station house. The absurdity of the exercise lay not just in the inability of a half-trained and uncultured force to believe what I was telling them, but in the certainty that their stupidity was helping the guilty party to make a getaway. Professor Gates should have taken his stand on the Bill of Rights and not on his epidermis or that of the arresting officer, and, if he didn't have the presence of mind to do so, that needn't inhibit the rest of us.


    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#188)
    by ChiTownMike on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 10:13:26 AM EST
    So you don't think that Gates would admit say that then! Why would he? Why should he? I have to laugh a a whole bunch of you who just totally ignore common sense posts that you have no answers for and then launch into you your same repetitive talking points as if you post are going to change the reality of the situation. Talk about bordering on mental disorder!

    Parent
    There are no rights to protect the innocent (none / 0) (#179)
    by The Last Whimzy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:46:41 PM EST
    In a court of public opninion.

    Guilty until proven innocent is for sure.

    Parent

    It's Not (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:20:35 PM EST
    I think Whalen is being accused by all sorts of nuts of racial profiling. That is why she hired an attorney who is defending the charge that she is a racist.

    Parent
    Seems like the (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:49:43 PM EST
    beer party guest list needs to be expanded to include Ms. Whalen, and, maybe, the elderly neighbor woman.

    Parent
    I think there's still some cart before horse (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:13:30 PM EST
    going on.

    Listening to that call, it sounds like one woman is making the call for the woman who actually saw the men using aggressive means to get the door open. Not sure which woman is Whalen. But, if the caller didn't know, it's because the witness didn't.

    There was another bit of information mentioned this morning about the neighborhood having had several recent break-ins, which could make residents more inclined to report suspicious behavior.

    I wish the media would shut up on this subject until they have ALL their facts known, and straight. But, they just keep prattling on.

    Parent

    Former Senator Larry Craig of Idaho has opened (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Angel on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:21:33 PM EST
    a consulting firm, specializing in energy issues.  Don't know about y'all, but I'm kind of tired of ex-Congressmen/women becoming consultants/lobbyists.  The gravy train never dries up for these people.  

    Ya didn't think.... (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:28:07 PM EST
    he got into the politics racket to "serve" did ya Angel?

    Think of congress like college...a place you have to go for a spell to get a license to make a ton of dough later.  Simply a means to end.

    Parent

    NJ Corruption Case (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:32:36 PM EST
    U.S. Professor: I told FBI about kidney trafficking 7 years ago

    Nancy Scheper-Hughes - whose contacts in Israel define her as the world's leading authority on organ trading - says she heard reports that the suspect, 58-year-old Levy-Izhak Rosenbaum, held donors at gunpoint after they changed their minds about the operation.

    Such reports that she received from her sources compelled her to go to the authorities. She met with an FBI agent at a Manhattan hotel and gave him information about Rosenbaum, but she says that the Bureau acted only much later.

    [snip]

    One out of every five adult males in some of Moldova's poorest villages has had his kidney removed, according to Scheper-Hughes. But a 2004 State Department report stated that "it would be impossible to conceal a clandestine organ trafficking ring."

    I can only imagine that the FBI let this go on so long because it tied into a corruption investigation (reported at TL) that included a larger group than just Rosenbaum.

    Meanwhile 7 years of human organ harvesting went on at gunpoint. Horrible..  

    Kidneys? (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:51:10 PM EST
    Who dosnt have kidneys?

    Michael Phelps should have kidneys like the ones I got.

    Too big? So we'll take it in a little.

    Parent

    Ask a diabetic (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:50:32 PM EST
    Both uncontrolled diabetes and high blood pressure can cause renal complications.  Ditto for untreated urinary tract infections.

    Parent
    I have only one (none / 0) (#74)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:27:31 PM EST
    and it's not that unusual anymore.

    Parent
    My mother had only one most of her life (none / 0) (#156)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:30:15 PM EST
    It shriveled up when she was extremely sick as a child. She would be checked thoroughly after every baby, and after the 5th one, they discovered both kidneys were fully functional again.


    Parent
    Wow, that's a new one on me (none / 0) (#172)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:19:05 PM EST
    and having only one, I've read a lot on this!

    I had one removed almost half a century ago, when it still was somewhat unusual -- and I wasn't expected to live a long life.  That prognosis can have an odd effect on a kid, I'll tell ya. :-)

    Parent

    Yep, her blood type changed at the same time (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 09:08:37 PM EST
    She was her own medical journal beyond that. Astonishing. She got to 78, just died over Mother's Day weekend. They registered the death as cirrosis and renal failure. She was a "there's a pill for that" kind of gal, and a hospital stay last Sept overdid the antibiotics when she instantly contracted one of those wonderful hospital only infections...liver just can't take the amount of medications they/she put through it.

    During her treatment months, I picked up what I thought was the absolute best information published on Chronic Kidney Disease. I learned all the things her doctors weren't doing and/or weren't telling us.

    Parent

    Francis Collins (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:42:31 PM EST
    from the previous open thread-- personally, I thought that NYT op-ed was an absolute disgrace.  Collins is an astounding scientist (headed up the Human Genome Project, just for starters) and a very, very skilled team leader/manager, just what is needed at NIH.  The fact that he's an evangelical Christian is interesting, but it's interesting because he's a living example of the fact that it's entirely possible to separate personal religious beliefs from what one does in the real world, and especially from science.

    The guy writing the op-ed is attempting to slime the guy for having religious faith, period.  The fact that there's zero indication in Collins's record that his religious beliefs have in any way affected his scientific judgment is what's important.

    How many people here believe that someone who's capable of letting his fundamentalist religious beliefs interfere with his scientific judgment would be capable of directing the Human Genome Project?

    I heard Collins interviewed extensively a fair number of times while the HGP was going on, including some exploration of how his religious faith relates to his scientific efforts, and he is one unbelievably impressive guy.  There hasn't been the least hint in anything I've heard from him, including on subjects like AIDS, that his scientific approach is the least bit tainted by religion.

    Collins is pro-choice, rejects creationism and intelligent design and supports embryonic stem cell research.

    Read up on him and how he ran the HGP, particularly his insistence that his study's data be made public and available to other researchers worldwide as it was established, and see if you don't think this guy is absolutely ideal for the NIH.

    he may well be stellar (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:56:38 PM EST
    it just seemed like a weird juxtaposition.   maybe my minor freakout can be attributed to the reaction I would have had to such news during the Bush administration.

    not used to this post partisan, post racial, post modern presidency yet.


    Parent

    I tend to agree (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:57:36 PM EST
    There is a syllogism that goes something like this:

    (1) Any true scientist believes in skepticism and the scientific method;

    (2) Religion has too many mysteries and inconsistencies to be explicable under the scientific method;

    (3) Therefore, anyone who believes strongly in religion cannot be a true scientist.

    Not really something I buy to be honest.  Absent any evidence that this scientist has been throwing out findings because they ran contrary to his religious beliefs, why should I mind his beliefs one bit?

    Parent

    I would be far more comfortable (none / 0) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:03:07 PM EST
    with them if they were not a major news story.

    Parent
    in other words (none / 0) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:04:34 PM EST
    if he did not seem quite so comfortable with the "christian scientist" label.
    which he clearly is.

    Parent
    what if he were a muslim scientist? (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:07:13 PM EST
    after all we owe most of our math to the muslims...

    Parent
    What of it? (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:35:12 PM EST
    Which of those two labels should he be ashamed of?

    Frankly, if you ever hope to achieve a consensus among religious people that science is not their enemy, which is critical if we hope to continue the arc of human progress, you're going to need more people like this making the case for science, not fewer...

    Parent

    just because something is true (none / 0) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:39:22 PM EST
    which is critical if we hope to continue the arc of human progress, you're going to need more people like this making the case for science, not fewer...

    does not keep it from being pathetic.

    Parent

    anyway (none / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:42:02 PM EST
    I would disagree with that.  I think the fact that he feels the need to nominate a "christian scientist" to head the NIH means among other things that the people who consider "science their enemy" probably have wayyyyyy to much influence on every level of our society.
    just MO

    Parent
    Wrong, Capt (none / 0) (#109)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:53:25 PM EST
    He did not "feel the need to nominate a Christian scientist," he felt the need to nominate an absolutely top-notch scientist and administrator with a demonstrated lifelong record of achievement to head the NIH.

    And how the heck that relates to soothing people who "believe science is their enemy" escapes me entirely.  My guess is that bunch is going to be screaming in outrage that a guy who is pro-choice, pro-embryonic stem cell research and totally disdainful of creationism and "intelligent design" was appointed.

    You are arguing, in essence, that anybody with religious beliefs should be barred from government office.  That's just wrong.

    Parent

    actually (none / 0) (#116)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:56:14 PM EST
    I just linked to a NYTimes article that argued that.
    I am simply thinking outloud.

    I hope he is as wonderful as you seem to think.
    and for what its worth I do know that all christians are not evil.  I come from a long line of them.
    its just that most of the ones in charge are evil.  IMO.


    Parent

    No kidding, but that's (none / 0) (#186)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 12:34:47 AM EST
    not true, either.  The vast majority of "Christians who are in charge" are people you never heard of because they keep their heads down and tend to their religious business and stay out of politics.

    Parent
    Why on earth shouldn't he (none / 0) (#96)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:47:15 PM EST
    be comfortable with it?  That's what he is!

    If you read him or listen to him talk about the subject, his faith appears to drive him to want to delve deeper and deeper into the mysteries of life and untangle them scientifically.  His faith also appears to have given him an absolutely passionate commitment to relieving human suffering.

    I have a very hard time seeing anything "bad" or suspect in those things.  They're what many of us think religion is supposed to be about.  The fact that people like Jerry Falwell and Rick Warren, et al, have grossly distorted Christian beliefs to suit their own bigoted and power-hungry ends doesn't make the faith of people like Collins somehow dangerous.  I'd say the guy is pretty darn close to what I would think of as a true Christian, at least as I understand what it means, or what I think it should mean.

    "Christian" should not automatically be a dirty word any more than "Jewish" or "Muslim."  All three great religions have been polluted by charlatans, but that does not mean that every believer should also be guilty until proven innocent, IMHO.

    Note-- I am not Christian myself, nor of any other identifiable religious belief.

    Parent

    I hope you are right (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:53:36 PM EST
    and I also do not think "faith" of whatever kind should disqualify anyone from anything.

    on the other hand I also do not think it should be on the resume.


    Parent

    Who put it on the resume? (none / 0) (#185)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 28, 2009 at 12:32:42 AM EST
    Sounds to me like the op-ed writer -- and you -- have put it there, not Collins himself.

    Parent
    In case you think 2012 is too far away (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:44:16 PM EST
    They've got polls for potential matchups

    Gee - I really miss all the campaign ads, the telephone calls, the junk mail. I hope it starts soon!

    I really don't believe he and Romney are tied. (none / 0) (#52)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:58:34 PM EST
    I'd bet Obama is at least 8-10 points ahead of him.

    Parent
    Oh, I wouldn't be surprised (none / 0) (#53)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:01:25 PM EST
    Obama's numbers have been sliding, and Romney's been out of the news, so folks can look at him a little more through rose-tinted glasses.

    But geez! We're polling about this already??

    Parent

    A few things to remember (none / 0) (#56)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:04:31 PM EST
    It's a Ras poll (tends to trend republican).

    It's 2009.

    Mitt Romney is better in theory than in practice.

    Parent

    True, but (none / 0) (#59)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:05:49 PM EST
    Ras doesn't think the young vote will be all atwitter as they were in 2008.  I tend to agree with him.  While some may come back and vote, the novelty will have worn off and they will be on to a different shiny object.

    Parent
    I doubt it (none / 0) (#62)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:08:10 PM EST
    The "young" vote is growing up, and there are also 4 more years worth of "young" voters in 2012.  Due to the state of the country and economic collapse, we are still paying close attention as well.

    Parent
    We'll see (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:10:11 PM EST
    How they come out to vote in 2010.  My guess is, turnout will be low (as it will be for all age groups).

    Parent
    2010 (none / 0) (#64)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:15:03 PM EST
    low, yes, but I agree, across all age groups.

    I guess I am saying, I wouldn't expect it to dip in 2012 more than any other age group.  Most of the young people I know are still fairly engaged (those that were before).  There is a general feeling that we can't afford not to be engaged.  Also, Bush comes off particularly bad when there is only Clinton and Obama to compare him to, and he left some serious scars.  Plus, the lackluster job market has greatly affected new grads.

    Parent

    CQ says (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:27:34 PM EST
    2010 House Outlook: Democrats Look Secure

    Parent
    Thanks. So even if there is (none / 0) (#115)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:55:07 PM EST
    the usual slippage at midterm time, it is unlikely to affect the majority status.  Good analysis of good numbers there.

    Of course, seeing the Dems really use their majority status is the next step.

    Parent

    And will the AA vote be back (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:42:21 PM EST
    in such numbers is another question -- as will the question of whether the GOP rallies its voters back to the polls.  

    Turnout declined in 2008 overall, with a drop in the white vote to 66% participation, so it was the AA vote with a record 65% participation that won for the Dems.  And yes, the youth vote was just flat; no different from the previous years, owing to great GOTV efforts on campuses then.  But those efforts did not necessarily keep those then-kids voting when some segued into the next age group.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:44:36 PM EST
    by 2012 all of this will be irrelevant.

    "it's the economy stupid" will determine the winner.

    By 2012, things better be turning around.  If not, Obama's in trouble, if so, he's probably a shoe-in.

    Parent

    Yep. But then, that's why (none / 0) (#105)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:49:58 PM EST
    I was so disappointed in both of the candidates left standing in the last campaign, as I had read enough to figure out at the start of 2008 that the economy would be the crucial issue -- and it looked like neither of the candidates we were left with would be good on economic issues.  McCain admitted he wasn't good on the issues, and Obama was going with the U of Chicago thinkers, and I disagree with so much of their thinking.

    So I'm still not sanguine about the economy or the Dems' chances in 2010 or 2012 -- and the only hope for them is a Palin sort of pick.  I can't stand Romney, but with his experience, he would have been the good pick for the GOP in 2008, and he will be baaaaack.

    Parent

    Romney terrifies me (none / 0) (#121)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    to be honest, I think he's the rethugs best shot.

    That being said, I still take this poll with a grain of salt.  For the three reasons I listed, but the main one being, it's 2009.

    I wouldn't say I was "sanguine" about the economy.  More like, I have no idea what it's gonna be like.  My "hunch" tells me things will be better by then (mostly because they can't get worse???), but that could easily just be wishfull thinking.  Once the economy crashed in '08 none of the republicans stood a chance.  They were all tarred.  So my best answer to that is "we'll see".

    Parent

    Romney terrifies me (none / 0) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:01:46 PM EST
    too.

    especially if the economy is still limping.

    Parent

    Another myth bites the dust (none / 0) (#114)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:54:47 PM EST
    "the youth vote was just flat; no different from the previous years"

    Parent
    then I guess (none / 0) (#125)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:00:44 PM EST
    we shouldn't expect a drop off.

    Parent
    Yeh, several myths spewed (none / 0) (#173)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:21:22 PM EST
    at the time of the election have been dispelled by more careful analysis.  Did you see the one this week?  Fascinating.

    Parent
    How is he even good in theory (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:15:18 PM EST
    is what I'd like to know.

    Or, by "theory" do you mean some ultra-bright, Mitt and Sarah, Kodak-moment fantasy?

    Parent

    That's exactly what I mean (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:17:36 PM EST
    P.S. I despise Mitt Romney, so I really can't discuss him rationally.

    But yes, he looks like a Ken doll.

    Parent

    As CST suggest, he's the only Republican who (none / 0) (#82)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:36:52 PM EST
    looked like someone you'd want to have as President.

    Parent
    wow (none / 0) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:01:43 PM EST
    Obama, Romney Tied at 45%; Obama 48%, Palin 42%

    makes you almost hope 2012 is the end of the world.


    Parent

    Irrelevent (none / 0) (#66)
    by eric on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:16:14 PM EST
    the end of the world will come shortly after the election, anyway.

    Parent
    wow that's sad (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by eric on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:17:10 PM EST
    I can't even spell irrelevant.  

    Parent
    So why are we wasting so much time on (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:18:34 PM EST
    health insurance reform that doesn't even kick in until 2013?!

    Parent
    Sen. Bunning retiring (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:04:32 PM EST
    It's that time of year when Congress-critters who are going to retire start announcing.  Bunning is the first.

    answer to your question... (none / 0) (#69)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:17:23 PM EST
    "BOSTON - A police sergeant who responded to a 911 call about a possible break-in at the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. can be heard calling Gates uncooperative during a radio communication with a police dispatcher.

    Sgt. James Crowley said he was with a man who claims to live in the house and with identification showing he was Gates. Crowley said the man was not cooperating and told the dispatcher to "keep the cars coming."

    I ain't sayin Gates was not a butthead, but I believe this refutes your assumption that he still wasn't sure who was in the house and about his "safety".  

    So Gates was a screamer and Crowley was a liar.  Gates was verbally abusive and Crowley abused his power.

    Keep them cars coming.........

    Parent

    Not To Mention (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:32:02 PM EST
    That Gates could hear, loud and clear Crowey saying "keep the cars coming."

    Disgusting, Crowley should be put on desk duty for a while, at best, imo.

    Parent

    Devil's advocate . . . (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:43:55 PM EST
    Could it be perhaps since Crowley has said he didn't understand why Gates was so agitated, that at that point he wasn't quite sure what the whole story was? Perhaps those "2 larger guys" were in fact in the house? Was he alone at that point? Maybe he also wanted back up/witness in case Gates decided to go all Rambo on him (age and cane don't make an agitated man safe). /end DA  ;)

    The white chick in the subway ended up with quite a show of police numbers. At least 4 cars, iirc. I happened to be walking by when it was going down and was surprised to find out later what actually happened. Is it perhaps procedure or something?

    Parent

    sure could be (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:54:11 PM EST
    but it could also be my weiner is bigger than yours, which I think they are both guilty of....

    Parent
    Yeah, I def see that as being an issue (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:00:24 PM EST
    I can't believe how simple it should have been . . .

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#97)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:48:00 PM EST
    good one.. great imagination.. too bad, imo, that you are using it to be an apologist for the Police..

    Parent
    Gotta do something while I sit (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:53:37 PM EST
    here with my poor scared Dot {grin}

    I wasn't being an apologist, just exploring options. BTW, no thought process on your end? Any thoughts on why so many showed up for the lone white chick and her little dog too? You just got your heels in on the cop is a racist power abuser? How's that working as a "teachable moment"?

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#142)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:10:45 PM EST
    I have not really gotten to entrenched in the racism aspect, although I think that Crowley's sensitivity teaching work could use a serious brush up.

    On the face of this arrest, Crowley abused his power and should be held accountable. Doesn't matter that Gates was black. Happens to white people all the time too.

    Parent

    I don't know what SOP is. (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:01:35 PM EST
    The only time I saw a multi car response locally was when a neighbor reported she was being threatened by her ex and he had a gun.  

    [He didn't.  She had called in similar false reports before but the police have to respond like it is the real thing.  I don't envy them their job.]

    Parent

    I was surprised and thought something (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:13:12 PM EST
    "bigger" was going down. We used to joke that we could tell the threat level by how many cops were hanging around our station. It's been awhile since I had seen that kind of police presence. Took over the intersection etc. I altered my walking route so I wouldn't have to pass through the area.

    but the police have to respond like it is the real thing

    that seems to get lost in the shuffle with some folks ;)

    Parent

    Um, yeah (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:35:33 PM EST
    Gates showed him his Harvard ID, which wouldn't tell him he lived there.

    Parent
    Lol (1.00 / 0) (#94)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:45:22 PM EST
    So why didn't he arrest Gates for B&E?

    Pretty stupid logic, imo. But I guess that your thinking is clouded by your horrible experience having to defend being falsely charged with racism.

    Get some help, I am sure that you can work through the horrible pain that you are still feeling about the traumatic incident.

    Parent

    IMO it rather unfair to constantly (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:58:53 PM EST
    remind a commenter and the rest of us of an experience the commenter shared here.  

    Parent
    Comment #94, #123, and #129 just in this thread (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:19:23 PM EST
    alone. I'm positive this is at least the third topic post where links back to the comment have been thrown at jbindc.

    Parent
    UH (none / 0) (#155)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:25:05 PM EST
    Comment 94 is the comment that oculus responded to by saying 'constantly', clearly hyperbole.

    Parent
    See quote (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:32:58 PM EST
    Lol (1.00 / 1) (#94)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:45:22 PM EST

    So why didn't he arrest Gates for B&E?
    Pretty stupid logic, imo. But I guess that your thinking is clouded by your horrible experience having to defend being falsely charged with racism.
    Get some help, I am sure that you can work through the horrible pain that you are still feeling about the traumatic incident.

    [ Parent | Reply to This | 1 2 3 4 5  ]




    Parent
    Listen (none / 0) (#162)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:41:28 PM EST
    Oculus made an exaggerated statement, imo. Your comment does not support oculus' claim, imo.

    If you think that I have constantly brought up jbindc's comment since he or she made it last week, so be it.

    Following your logic this comment and the ones I have had after your claim, would also be constantly bringing up jbindc's comment.

    Absurd, imo. and quite unfounded.

    Parent

    NOT EXAGGERATED AT ALL (5.00 / 0) (#164)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:45:01 PM EST
    Do research on yourself, squeaky. You have been throwing that back at jdindc every chance you could find. That includes a multiple of comment threads in posts throughout the weekend and today.

    You research it yourself.


    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#166)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:47:26 PM EST
    Still chasing me around? Did you forget to look in the mirror, lol


    Parent
    Constantly? (none / 0) (#129)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:04:51 PM EST
    A little heavy on the hyperbole, no?

    This is the first time I brought it up. And, I have been thinking about it in terms of BTD's suggestion about empathizing with jbindc.

    It would be horrible to have to defend a false charge in the workplace, especially one so loaded as racism.

    Obviously it colors the argument for jbindc.

    Parent

    First time?! (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:08:16 PM EST


    Parent
    Not as persistent as you to research (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:09:27 PM EST
    another person's comments.  But I have seen more than one reference.  

    Parent
    More Than One (none / 0) (#147)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:13:37 PM EST
    Is hardly "constantly".  Unnecessary hyperbole on your part, imo.

    Parent
    Maybe you should just admit (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:37:43 PM EST
    that you chase people around the board who YOU believe don't fit the mold of those you think belong at TalkLeft.

    Last I heard JERALYN MERRITT owns TalkLeft and if she wants to ban all the commenters who you take such insulting whacks at constantly, then she should do that. Until then, well, you're going to get back what you give.


    Parent

    Chase People Around?? (none / 0) (#163)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:43:55 PM EST
    Look in a mirror dude or dudette.

    I made no comment to you, except in response to your silly, imo, comment above.

    You interjected yourself in this, and are in fact chasing me around.

    lol

    Parent

    History, squeaky, history (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:46:33 PM EST
    You've picked me as your target almost as often as you've picked oculus, jdindc, cream city, and that's just a start.

    Parent
    Hey (5.00 / 0) (#167)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:49:43 PM EST
    I have an idea, don't make comments that I disagree with and I will not disagree with you.

    If you want a caffee klatch, were everyone agrees and talks about food, the weather, gardening etc, this might not be the blog for you.

    Parent

    Caution advised as you are dealing (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:12:34 PM EST
    with a legacy commenter.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#180)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:48:17 PM EST
    My legacy here has been to pretty much be in agreement with the stated mission, so to speak, of this site. I mostly agree with Jeralyn, BTD and TChris.

    Your legacy, as stated by you, is that you are not so interested in the mission of this site, and mostly disagree with Jeralyn point of view, and are here only because you like BTD.

    I guess that we are each entitled to our own legacy.

    Parent

    Preacher (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 08:03:18 PM EST
    and choir makes for a pretty boring ministry.

    Gotta have a little satan in the mix or there really are no discussions, just a bunch of hallelujahs....

    Parent

    I made (none / 0) (#174)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:28:51 PM EST
    what I hoped would be a very helpful suggestion earlier but as the time worn phrase goes, you can lead a horse to water....

    Parent
    Eternal hope. (none / 0) (#176)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:38:33 PM EST


    Parent
    Listen Oculus (none / 0) (#178)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:40:01 PM EST
    YOu do not have to read my comments, ok. Fine by me.

    Eternal hope... lol

    Parent

    Helpful? (none / 0) (#177)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:38:42 PM EST
    Not here to be helpful to you by shutting up about the Gates case. Sorry.

    It is fine with me that we disagree.

    Parent

    Oh Well (none / 0) (#100)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:49:19 PM EST
    So much for empathy..

    Parent
    Ann Coulter, is that you? (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:49:55 PM EST


    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:59:14 PM EST
    Talk to me (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 24, 2009 at 12:10:07 PM EST
    when you've been falsely accused of racism at work, had to go through an investigation, and then finally be cleared.  Talk to me when you know the anguish and stress false claims of racism on you personally and professionally.

    Seems clear that this horrible event has colored your judgement and you are over identifying with Crowley..

    I have thought about it and do empathize. My entreaty to get help is sincere. Not something worth carrying around on your shoulders, imo.  

    Parent

    Um, I don't carry it around (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:12:22 PM EST
    I just think it's ridiculous the people here who will automatically jump to anything that involves the police as "they are corrupt - they are racist - they are jack booted thugs." Especially when most people here would have absolutely no idea what it takes to be a police officer and if they had to do a police officer's job, they would lay down and cry within minutes.

    Parent
    Well That Attitude May Be Prevalent (none / 0) (#171)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:15:51 PM EST
    Because this is a left leaning site that claims to be:
    The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

    Also defendant's rights are more often supported than victims of crimes. The police are not usually defended because as necessary as they may be they tend to be like an organism that will expand its power without limits if not checked.

    Many here are interested in checking the expanding power of government and police and defending civil rights and the constitution.

    As far as the Crowley case goes, he made a mistake and over reached his authority over a citizen he was sworn to protect.

    It is clear to most lawyers here that is the case. You mentioned an incident that seems to be part of your baggage. It is ugly stuff to be falsely accused of racism, especially in the workplace. IMO this case is not about racism but police acting outside of the law and showing really poor judgement.

    Happens every day. This time they got busted.


    Parent

    hmmm (none / 0) (#89)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:42:07 PM EST
    you have made up your mind it seems. you wanna take the police exam?

    Parent
    For you, JL (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:49:21 PM EST
    No thanks, passing the bar exam was enough for me.

    Parent
    thanks, I thought the squawky ones were for me (none / 0) (#107)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:51:44 PM EST
    i thought they were too rough...Congrats on passing the bar, if I were capable of doing so I wouldn't have ruined my liver at 35...

    guess we will have to agree to disagree here, still love ya jbindc.

    Parent

    You aren't rude (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:53:42 PM EST
    like squawky

    Parent
    not to you because I like you (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:56:22 PM EST
    and it is also easier because I think Gates "started it".  I just differ on the use of force and demonstration of power in this situation.  Why do i always have to put the last word in??????

    Parent
    I'll put it in (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:09:43 PM EST
    if it makes you feel better.  :)

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#98)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:48:32 PM EST
    you just get to be worse every day.

    What a small, venial person you are.

    Parent

    Meant for sqawky (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:48:57 PM EST


    Parent
    Oh! (none / 0) (#103)
    by ChiTownMike on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:49:46 PM EST
    So a people who lived in a house that the police were responding to have never shot cops? Just because they live there means they are not a threat? Are you kidding? And it they are screaming at you and being belligerent and saying hateful things in anger like 'you are a racist' the cops should just shrug his shoulders and turn his back and walk away because there is no saftey issue? Put on you thinking hat.

    I don't know about you pal but if any person of any race is yelling at me and calling me a racist I am a little more than fearful that they could explode into physical violence at any moment. How does the cop know what mental state that person is in? He could be on drugs. He could be despondent. He might have just murdered his entire family. How do you know? You don't. So SOP is to call him outside where you have more control of the situation and can sort things out. Of course if the guy keeps yelling at you then you hook him up.

    And to extend that I suppose if I am in my car - my car - then I am of no thereat because people in their own cars have never shot cops!

    Parent

    I didn't feed you troll (1.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:52:45 PM EST
    go back to your hole.

    Parent
    actually (1.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:08:53 PM EST
    you are frothing, and I am not calling for backup.......hmmmm

    Parent
    A claim is a claim and ID can be fake. (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:08:19 PM EST
    How ya been Jl??

    Parent
    too busy (none / 0) (#139)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:09:39 PM EST
    is your blog up and running?  you heard from Patrick lately?  I hope he is ok.  

    Parent
    Long time no talk (none / 0) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:14:53 PM EST
    Yes it is and no I have not.

    Parent
    sweet thanks, I bookmarked it (none / 0) (#150)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:17:02 PM EST
    how is the garden?  strange temps here has everything acting crazy and last year my tomatoes were awful so I am hoping not to have a repeat.  

    Parent
    They are cute now... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:22:46 PM EST
    but I grew up with hogs and they are far too smart and adaptable for me to want them running loose.  Trained to be a family pet, maybe.  Trained to harass tourists for food, no thanks!

    Come to the Central Valley? No thanks. (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:57:41 PM EST
    Too hot for me.

    Those pig/cs are so cute. (none / 0) (#10)
    by vml68 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 02:59:10 PM EST
    and that beautiful water brings back memories of my childhood, when I could step out the door and be in water like that. Now if I step out the door, it's the Hudson river and I am pretty sure I won't be swimming in that!

    Sweet (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:05:35 PM EST
    Super nice pics...

    Some political satire (none / 0) (#17)
    by joze46 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:08:13 PM EST
    Sean Hannity sneakily said Obama has already added up wards twenty four trillion dollars to the deficit. Giving his late night regular Demagogic Democratic report with those entire statistics is a marvel to GOP sophistry. The "Goof off Party". Surprise, statistically everyone ever born is a Conservative. Of course we all are energy converters; we take in food and do work. Even standing in an unemployment line is work.    

    Watching and listening to Sean Hannity is like trying to read Ditech commercials. Which are hard if not impossible to read? You know the ones that have like three hundred little words about two millimeters big, a font size around two quarters. With the likely disclaimer you can't read flashed up on your television screen for three seconds. That commercial is like a shoe that does not fit yet runs daily for years and people call into it. Who says American isn't stupid.

    Or free credit report dot com those pirates look like bunch of Republican frat boys pitching out your identity to who knows who. One wonders if they hacked into the NSA or that was the real reason for the wire taps. After that you can save your identity from theft for ten ninety five. Then after the commercial about Tax Masters you need to file bankruptcy just call them. They will treat you with respect. Then Hannity comes back giving full account of why the Obama Democratic Health care program won't work. Sheesh it hasn't even started yet and Hannity knows exactly whats going to happen. Mark his word.

    It looks like a break through in my personal prayers that the Federal Reserve be audited for the last few decades. Wow, perhaps the real story will finally get out. I saw Timothy Geithner on C-span spelling out the some of the new rules for the Federal Reserve. Wow, it looks like finally some sense of Transparency could be in the future.

    I know a lot of people don't like the idea to open up the Federal Reserve secrets, but what would be even more fun is to have every living President and Treasury Secretary participate in an open public investigation of this secret resource of free money for the last one hundred years. Wow, can you imagine the middle class reparations needed to resolve the political theft. Instead of forty acres and a mule the Black and White middle class would likely get free health care, a condo in Manhattan, your choice of a BMW or Cadillac with free maintenance and gas the rest of your life. LOL.        

    Those are temps I was born and bred in! (none / 0) (#18)
    by vml68 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:09:05 PM EST
    107 degrees today

    I would prefer the 80-90 degree range but I will take 107 over 50 and below.

    That's just (none / 0) (#35)
    by vicndabx on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:33:44 PM EST
    scary

    Parent
    OMG (none / 0) (#20)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:13:01 PM EST
    This is so disturbing

    Ugh (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:47:05 PM EST
    That's horrifying.  Must be a very, very sick woman.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#44)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:47:54 PM EST
    And from reading that, it seemed like there were other adults in the house - what the heck????

    Parent
    Way too much gratuitous detail... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:50:35 PM EST
    jb, I don't fault you for linking to the story. It's just that it is reported in a manner that seems designed to ramp up the heinous nature of  the event. The level of extremely gruesome, salacious detail is beyond belief. That type of excessive style used to be the sole domain of tabloid publications. Now it's standard fare. There is an underlying 'story' here - one that warrants introspection and public consideration, but it is being entirely obstructed by the tabloidesque river of gore.

    The story mentions Postpartum Depression as an afterthought. I'm no doctor but, the description suggests this case is more on the order of acute Postpartum Mania: here, also here.

    Parent

    sounds like (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:06:24 PM EST
    she had other problems.

    Otty Sanchez's aunt, Gloria Sanchez, said her niece had been "in and out" of a psychiatric ward, and that the hospital called several months ago looking to check up on her. She did not elaborate on the nature of her niece's health problems.


    Parent
    Mental illness strikes again. (none / 0) (#86)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:40:49 PM EST
    Checking up?  That's sometimes done for schizoid disorders, which fits the description.

    There are some drugs that pregnant women shouldn't take because of the potential harm to the fetus, so it's also possible she may have been off any medication she had previously taken.

    We'll probably know more later on.  

    Parent

    Off meds and hormonal perhaps? (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:46:53 PM EST
    something went seriously wrong in her head/with her. very sad.

    Parent
    Unfortunately (none / 0) (#118)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:57:07 PM EST
    Joe and Jane Public will just latch onto the "mother kills baby" meme and grab the torches and pitchforks.  Heck, the Media will probably encourage them and at least half of the radio talk show hosts.

    I'll know things have changed when the media talks about the importance of treating mental illnesses to prevent tragedies like this.  

    Parent

    This is going to sound off (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:07:15 PM EST
    but it's meant with the best intentions . . .

    perhaps this is horrific enough that most people can see very quickly that something was horribly wrong and the right discussion happens. I can't see (I may regret saying this!) how they could possibly spin it any other way. it's beyond shocking . . . and we do need to look at what happened to stop it (and others) from ever happening again.

    Parent

    I'm with you. (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:20:15 PM EST
    Similar stories are common enough, even if they don't have the same gory details.  A young woman was sentenced last year for the death of her infant under bizarre circumstances.  

    If we had a real health care system, post partum mothers would have regular home visits so postpartum depression and psychosis could be detected and treated.

    Parent

    In cases like this, does the person (none / 0) (#159)
    by vml68 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 05:36:26 PM EST
    still go on trial or are they taken to a mental health facility immediately?


    Parent
    Good question. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:34:58 PM EST
    They should have a psych eval to be sure and receive treatment.  I think it is the prosecutor's call for the trial, although I think when death is involved, a trial is almost a certainty.

    Parent
    The problem in your links is doctors (none / 0) (#84)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:38:22 PM EST
    and pharma companies.  The manics are the doctors prescribing drugs to pregnant or post-partum women without thoroughly checking the patients' histories.  

    If that is involved in this case, it's about time that some of those sorts of docs got stopped from handing out drugs without due diligence first.  The poor women already had enough problems, and the docs made it worse.

    Parent

    drugs (none / 0) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 04:43:36 PM EST
    they probably saw advertised on Oprah and asked for.

    Parent
    Yep, I chose those links (none / 0) (#181)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 08:03:02 PM EST
    in part, because they demonstrated that the wrong combination of doctors and drugs can sometimes create psychosis; like Postpartum Mania.

    I don't care for the creepy names doctors give to some of these specifically female disorders; some of which should not even be regarded as disorders (hello "hysteria"). It seems that in Western medicine the entire female body and mind are especially over-pathologized. Which is doubly problematic, given that women's health is so underrepresented in medical research.

    Parent

    Michael Vick to play again (none / 0) (#25)
    by vicndabx on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:26:09 PM EST
    link

    I was rooting for... (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:30:49 PM EST
    full reinstatement, but its a start, good on the commish.

    Parent
    I was hoping for at least 1yr suspension (none / 0) (#45)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:49:44 PM EST
    since he never served anytime for felony animal abuse (state charges).

    Parent
    Jeff in alabama, are you shocked? (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:33:02 PM EST


    Parent
    Anti Sotomayor Republicans (none / 0) (#32)
    by Saul on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:31:12 PM EST
    Anybody got a list of republicans that have stated they will NOT vote for Sotomayor

    List (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by ruffian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:39:59 PM EST
    Here's a better list than the top of my head, fine as it may be.

    Parent
    Sessions, Hatch.... (none / 0) (#36)
    by ruffian on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:35:26 PM EST
    and Graham are the only ones I have heard announce one way or another, and of those only Graham is a 'yes'.


    Parent
    Grassley is a no (none / 0) (#38)
    by CST on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:41:14 PM EST
    I believe Collins, Snowe, Martinez and Lugar are also yesses, but they aren't on the Judiciary Committee.

    Parent
    Plus (none / 0) (#39)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 03:41:22 PM EST
    Cornyn and the dude from Nebraska.

    Parent
    Change For Sure (none / 0) (#169)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 27, 2009 at 06:05:13 PM EST
    Had not seen this from last March..  Most likely because I was not in Iran at the time.

    But Ben Smith crunches the numbers and it turns out to have been one of the most frequently youtube hits in Iran during that time period.

    Talk about smart power. Ahmadinejad's head must have exploded.

    It is clear to me, now more than ever, that BushCo and Ahmadinejad were allies. They both used each other for the same ends.

    Monday Afternoon Open Thread | 186 comments (186 topical)

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