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Bringing Race Into It

Look what that terrible man, Harvard Professor Henry Louis (Skip to his friends) Gates, made a nice Boston police officer do:

An officer in the Boston Police Department has been suspended after allegedly writing a racially charged e-mail about Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. to colleagues at the National Guard, a law enforcement official said.

The law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Officer Justin Barrett referred to the black scholar as a “jungle monkey’’ in the letter, written in reaction to news coverage of Gates’s arrest July 16. Barrett was suspended Tuesday, pending a termination hearing.

I blame Gates. Here are the words Gates forced upon this police officer - "If I was the officer (Gates) verbally assaulted like a banana-eating jungle monkey, I would have sprayed him in the face with OC (pepper spray) deserving of his belligerent noncompliance." Indeed. h/t Dkos diarist Dirk McQuigley.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    A "real American" trapped in Boston (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:13:02 AM EST


    I bet a dollar he isn't terminated. Probably (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:14:28 AM EST
    a letter of censure.

    I bet you a 100 dollars (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:16:11 AM EST
    He'll get a racial sensitivity training course from Officer Crowley . . .

    Parent
    Different police department. But let's (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:18:32 AM EST
    send this fellow along to the WH tonight.

    Parent
    With Al Sharpton (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:19:44 AM EST
    That is his punishment.

    Parent
    punishment (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:22:04 AM EST
    100 continuous hours of Chris Matthews.

    I know it seems cruel.


    Parent

    Glenn Beck. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:41:47 AM EST
    Beck in lederhosen (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:44:44 AM EST
    he might (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:54:21 AM EST
    like that.  

    Parent
    Olby (none / 0) (#92)
    by prittfumes on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:54:10 AM EST
    The geneticist? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:56:26 AM EST
    Nah Olbermann. (none / 0) (#109)
    by prittfumes on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:04:43 PM EST
    Sorry.

    Parent
    Nah, Beck is worse. (none / 0) (#123)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:11:06 PM EST
    He can come on all reasonable like and I'm thinking he might actually have a point and then he veers off into wingnut land again.

    Olbermann is annoying because he'll do whatever it takes to keep his ratings up.  It makes his occasional flashes of journalism disappointing.

    Parent

    Gibbs: no apologies expected (none / 0) (#162)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:51:58 PM EST
    the no comments to press by any of the three:  AP

    But will Gates and Crowley follow the script and remain silent?  

    Parent

    The apology stuff (none / 0) (#165)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:58:15 PM EST
    I think is interesting, particularly Crowley saying he won't apologize.  Each side digging in aside, I think part of the problem is that some members of police departments sometimes act like incensed minor league baseball teams with something to prove to the world.  What's wrong with an apologetic policeman.  But anyway...this picture of Crowley is friggin' ridiculous.  Perfect BAGNewsNotes fodder.

    Parent
    As should Gates (none / 0) (#69)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:44:55 AM EST
    He doesn't teach much (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:30:10 PM EST
    anyway.  The academics so often on teevee rarely, actually, teach much or see many students, especially undergrads, other than en masse.  Never thought I'd say that maybe that's a good thing. :-)

    Parent
    If this doesn't get you fired, what does? (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:16:33 AM EST
    Maybe Gates (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:07:46 PM EST
    should be suspended also for bringing down Harvard with his racial rants.

    'I'll talk to your mama outside, craka'

    LOL.

    I mean really is that up to Harvard standards for a professor?

    Parent

    Glenn Beck said (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:18:10 AM EST
    on FOX that the president hated white people and he is still employed.


    Parent
    By Fox (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:19:19 AM EST
    the more interesting character is Lou Dobbs.

    The "most trusted name in news" is sweating this one.

    Parent

    Unions my friend (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:18:30 AM EST
    They negotiate protective work rules. Do not complain now when it is someone you want fired.

    Parent
    I have no issue with union protections (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:20:33 AM EST
    But if at the end of the process he still has his job, something is wrong.

    Parent
    Um (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:23:03 AM EST
    the "something wrong" is the union contract.

    This simply is not enough for firing.

    Parent

    Very well (none / 0) (#28)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:23:45 AM EST
    Then it should be.

    Parent
    Are you sure? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:42:30 AM EST
    Consider LoCurto v. Giuliani, 447 F.3d 159 (2d Cir. 2006), which upheld the firing of police officers and firefighters who had participated in a racist parade float:

    We have no doubt that, in considering how to respond to the plaintiffs' actions, Giuliani, Safir, and Von Essen were driven largely by concerns over the public perception of the NYPD and FDNY. Where we part ways with the district court is in our recognition that the Government may, in some circumstances, legitimately regard as "disruptive" expressive activities that instantiate or perpetuate a widespread public perception of police officers and firefighters as racist...

    Police officers and firefighters alike are quintessentially public servants. As such, part of their job is to safeguard the public's opinion of them, particularly with regard to a community's view of the respect that police officers and firefighters accord the members of that community... Because someone who walks a beat "is often the representative with whom the public interacts[,] it is not difficult to see how such an officer who expresses racist views in certain situations could damage the efficient operation of the NYPD."

    Interestingly, the latter quote comes from Judge Sotomayor's dissent in Pappas v. Giuliani, 290 F.3d 143 (2002), which upheld (incorrectly, in my view) the firing of an information systems employee of the police department (i.e. not a beat cop) for sending a racist email.

    I think Judge Sotomayor's dissent in Pappas was correct, but the majority opinion carried the day, of course.  And if it's okay to fire a desk employee for sending a racist email, it's certainly okay legally to fire an active-duty cop.

    Now of course, I agree with you that the union ultimately gets to make the determination here, notwithstanding the mayor's vow that this cop is "G-O-N-E."  (Giuliani had made a similar vow in the LoCurto case, and he ultimately got his way.)

    Parent

    Perhaps I am wrong (none / 0) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:48:04 AM EST
    We'll see.

    Parent
    I don't agree with the premise the union (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:53:38 AM EST
    decides who it will permit the police chief to fire.  At least in CA, the IA report goes to the head of the law enforcement agency, who makes a decision, which the officer may appeal and ultimately writ to superior court.  

    Parent
    I think it will depend on the current (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:21:33 AM EST
    contents of his citizen complaint file.

    Parent
    I don't really see how anything could possibly (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:23:14 AM EST
    excuse this outburst.

    Parent
    If there are past sustained citizen (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:26:03 AM EST
    complaints of this officer treating people unfairly due to ethnicity, he's in trouble.

    Parent
    Hey (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:29:49 AM EST
    We agree.

    Hell, I can even think this is sound policy.

    Maybe he can check his racism while on duty and confines it to incoherent screeds to the Boston Globe.

    Parent

    I doubt it. People are probably (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:34:10 AM EST
    flooding Boston PD with e mails and phone calls even as we type.

    Parent
    Mayor (none / 0) (#55)
    by eric on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:38:58 AM EST
    says that he is gone.  I think this one is bad enough to get the boot.

    Parent
    Shades of Palin's Alaska state police (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:41:59 AM EST
    brother-in-law.  Stay tuned.  

    Parent
    The enitre e-mail (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:15:37 AM EST
    here. I really enjoyed this part:

    "Your defense of Gates is assuming he has rights when he is a suspect."

    Thank you. Thank you very much. Ed Meese is happy today.

    Ed Meese - nice touch (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:08:14 PM EST
    Truly the root of so many evils. He does not get enough credit.

    Parent
    I pity his english students (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:17:39 AM EST
    BTW, there's absolutely no misreading that email (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:19:30 AM EST
    I think it speaks for itself: this guy is a racist.

    I disagree (5.00 / 8) (#18)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:20:36 AM EST
    He explicitly says he's not a racist.  That's not something a racist would say.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:22:13 AM EST
    And some of his best friends and colleagues (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:23:29 AM EST
    are . . . .

    Parent
    ...not racists either! (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:40:13 AM EST
    (Sorry, couldn't pass up a straight line.)

    Parent
    well, (none / 0) (#76)
    by coigue on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:47:40 AM EST
    the black ones are reverse-racists.

    Parent
    That's a funny defense that almost makes sense (none / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:22:25 AM EST
    Kinda like "I am not a crook."

    Parent
    Or.."I'm not one to complain, but....." (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by coigue on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:47:04 AM EST
    Just what we need more of (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:29:25 AM EST
    Law enforcement who aren't public servants

    The words... (5.00 / 0) (#147)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:27:44 PM EST
    ..."to serve and protect" seem to have lost all meaning.  

    Now they're just an empty slogan on the side of squad cars.

    Parent

    May I suggest... (none / 0) (#161)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:51:21 PM EST
    a new slogan..."to endanger and provide a disservice, and don't give us no lip!"

    Parent
    I was thinking more along the lines of... (5.00 / 0) (#169)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:06:08 PM EST
    ...to oppress and inflame, and I dare you to make me use this cool new and improved Taser I just got thanks to Homeland Security.

    Parent
    Per usual... (5.00 / 0) (#181)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:13:30 PM EST
    more eloquent than I my friend.

    Our slogan remains the same..."Don't tase me bro!"

    Parent

    Eloquent? (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:23:11 PM EST
    LOL, I'm not so sure of that.  After 3 days of no food this last weekend and lovely little procedure on Monday, I'm still having a hard time even remembering what my own name is.

    They could tase me and I wouldn't know the difference.  

    I do recall a piece I saw on the news about the new tasers they were showing off and the glee in demonstrating them.  Made the hole in my stomach worse.  

    Parent

    Ugh. Get well soon. (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:26:26 PM EST
    And yeh, I've had a few procedures that actually were, when I think about, basically being tasered surgically.  I hope yours didn't involve such electrical instruments.

    Parent
    Actually, it did. (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:33:03 PM EST
    That's not the worst part though, it's the prepping for the procedure that s*cks.

    Thanks for the well wishes.  I'm going OK, it's my stomach that is very, very unhappy with me.    

    Parent

    Sorry to hear that man... (none / 0) (#207)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:35:31 PM EST
    coulda fooled me, you are on your game, feel better

    And please remember your name if you should come across John Law, I can stomach a lot but chains and a cage for my Mile Hi homeboy might just drive me to take up arms against our oppressors...and I don't wanna end up in a cage or dead!...:)

    Parent

    I still think (none / 0) (#188)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:20:40 PM EST
    the slogan on the bad Tranformer cop car was the best

    "to punish and enslave"

    Parent

    This is very disappointing. (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:39:46 AM EST
    I think this is beneath you, BTD.

    Not the highlighting of a racist and racially insensitive  and ugly e-mail written by a member of the Boston PD, but the snide and snarky tone that accompanies it, which manages to slime everyone in the police department who wears a uniform.  And, in spite of your denial that this has anything to do with Crowley, everyone knows that many who actually do know Crowley described him as a nice person, so your use of "that nice police officer" is hard to take any other way.

    Maybe you weren't in the mood to be as thoughtful as you normally are, but this post just seems like button-pushing to me, when it could be something a whole lot better.  


    I guess it was not beneath me (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:45:20 AM EST
    after all.

    Believe me, if I told you what I thought of some of the comments I have read here on some of these issues, then you would know that this post is not at all beneath me. It is rather dignified considering what I REALLY think of some of what has been written here.

    Hold the chastisements, I got plenty to shoot back at a lof people here.  

    Parent

    I disagree (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:45:35 AM EST
    that Sgt. Crowley owns the copyright on the descriptor "nice."  I certainly would never, not in a million years, have made the connection that because BTD used the word "nice" he must have been snarking on Crowley.

    Parent
    I fear you are going around the bend (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:47:12 AM EST
    here, steve m.  

    Parent
    For the record (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:49:54 AM EST
    I was not thinking of Crowley to tell you the truth.

    What I WAS thinking of is revealed in the title of my post.

    A week of discussion of how Gates "brought race into it" specifically.

    Parent

    Am I really? (5.00 / 0) (#89)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:53:22 AM EST
    Do you think this post is meant to imply that Crowley and the gentleman who sent the offensive email are two peas in a pod?

    Parent
    Although BTD says the thought (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:05:44 PM EST
    never entered his mind, the comments here indicate Gates/Crowley isn't a dead letter yet.  

    Parent
    Proving my point I think (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:08:54 PM EST
    And yet (5.00 / 0) (#143)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:25:25 PM EST
    it wasn't your point.

    Huh.

    Parent

    Maybe BTD is trying to help (none / 0) (#157)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:43:58 PM EST
    J sell "Bare Necessities."  Ever thought of that?

    Parent
    I suppose one could say (none / 0) (#119)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:08:55 PM EST
    that Crowley is always in it.

    Parent
    That you didn't make any connection (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:02:10 PM EST
    does not mean that others couldn't.

    For the most part, I have stayed away from posts that reference Gates, since only relatively few commenters seem able to bring even a modicum of objectivity to the discussion.

    I find the language in the Boston police officer's e-mail ugly and shameful; his views about citizens' rights do not please me, either.  If he's bringing those attitudes to his job, that's a problem.

    I just didn't find the "see what he made me do" part particularly useful to a thoughtful discussion; as red meat, it worked quite well.

    Parent

    You missed a week (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:08:25 PM EST
    of "see what Gates made people do" comments and posts and articles apparently.

    That was my reference.

    Parent

    Well, there you go... (none / 0) (#129)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:14:10 PM EST
    I was AWOL for that, and I'm going to be away from the computer tomorrow through Sunday, so heaven knows what I will miss out on.

    Didn't mean any disrespect; probably should not have even waded in...

    Parent

    Disrespect away (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:18:02 PM EST
    There has been too much kowing to "authority," such as it is in this country for too long.

    Fight the Power!

    Parent

    Amen bro... (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:45:57 PM EST
    Fight The Power (5.00 / 0) (#184)
    by daring grace on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:16:26 PM EST
    I guess that's the next step after Question Authority.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#105)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:03:49 PM EST
    It may be that I am just too thick to draw the connection.

    I certainly respect your opinion in this, as always.

    Parent

    beneath BTD? (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by coigue on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:54:13 AM EST
    (grin)

    Parent
    which came first (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:20:23 PM EST
    Crowley or Gates...

    Or all around sh*tty disrespectful treatment, especially of African Americans, by police officers.  

    Hmm..

    Parent

    I saw this earlier on CNN (5.00 / 0) (#164)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:57:55 PM EST
    and indeed linked to it in the Cornyn thread as an example of the kinds of people Cornyn and his ilk "give cover" to on a routine basis, and thus Cornyn's deranged comments about Sotomayor.

    Saying BTD meant it to slam Crowley and all police officers is a real stretch. The snark was clear to me - 'nice' people driven to such extremes by that dastardly Professor Gates. In this case it happened to be a cop, but I am quite sure there have been instances in many professions in the last two weeks.

    Parent

    Strange Reaction (5.00 / 0) (#180)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:12:32 PM EST
    Do you think that this should be swept under the rug? Obviously many Police are in agreement with the ugly sentiment of the email. Were it not the case we would not have the horrendous racial disparity in our prisons, and Officers like Crowley would not have to be teaching racial sensitivity courses.

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant, a little snark just right, to give the disinfectant that zesty lemony scent.

    Parent

    Why this stretch? (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:28:03 PM EST
    Obviously many Police are in agreement with the ugly sentiment of the email. Were it not the case we would not have the horrendous racial disparity in our prisons,


    Parent
    Stretch? (5.00 / 0) (#213)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:37:54 PM EST
    How do you explain the disparity in arrest rates along racial lines?

    How do you explain the glee of NYC police when they utter the phrase Guiliana time.

    Why do police have to take racial profiling and racial sensitivity classes?

    Hardly a stretch, the statistics don't lie.

    Parent

    Your reaction, on the other hand, (5.00 / 4) (#209)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:36:36 PM EST
    is so predictable I wish I had put money on your having it.

    Guess you missed my later comment:

    I find the language in the Boston police officer's e-mail ugly and shameful; his views about citizens' rights do not please me, either.  If he's bringing those attitudes to his job, that's a problem.

    I never said, in the original comment, or in the later one, anything about sweeping anything under the rug, so I don't know why you would ask me that question, other than because you'd rather respond to an imaginary comment than a real one.

    Conversation would be so much more productive, and the ability to learn something from each other would be so much more possible, if people would make some attempt to improve their comprehension skills, and engage others with more honesty.


    Parent

    Somerby (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:53:55 AM EST
    has an (excuse me) "teachable moment" about this kind of post today.

    In other words I hope that when an economically underprivileged black male is shot or unduly incarcerated by police, you, BTD (not Jeralyn, because I know she does this), will make ten posts about it...some snarky, some nice.

    The fact here, is that a member of your village was pilloried, in your eyes -- you, as a self-proclaimed elitist -- and that's why it makes you so mad, and so "snarky".

    And this is why Democrats lose (as Somerby says).  Yeah, and Democrats may be temporarily in winnership now, but it won't last.

    Somerby (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:55:40 AM EST
    has been utterly offensive on this issue for a week now.

    Out of respect for his good works, I have decided to ignore his offensive and idiotic work on the subject.

    Parent

    You have my sincere thanks. (none / 0) (#103)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:03:27 PM EST
    I've been reading posts on similar themes.  It's discouraging.  There are forced narratives galore.

    Parent
    Boston (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by souvarine on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:07:29 PM EST
    The Boston police have a bad reputation on race for a reason. So it was easy to assume that Crowley was part of that culture.

    The evidence suggests that Crowley is not part of that culture.


    What evidence is that? (5.00 / 0) (#127)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:13:51 PM EST
    I certainly have no evidence to argue that Crowley is like Barrett and never made that argument.

    Indeed, this post to me was about how too many, including many here, argued that Gates "brought race into it." My argument was never that Crowley was racial in his actions - how would I know? My argument is and remains that race is in everything all the time.

    The good, the bad, the ugly.

    To pretend Gates "brought race into it" was offensive to me. It still is.

    Parent

    Is you comment premised on (none / 0) (#148)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:27:54 PM EST
    disbelieving Crowley and Figueroa that, when Crowley asked Gates for id, Gates sd., why, because I'm a black man in America?

    Parent
    It's premised on (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:35:20 PM EST
    the fact that race was in it long before Crowley and Gate knew of each other.

    Life and stories do not start at a moment in time.

    Parent

    I don't quite get this... (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by vml68 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:51:13 PM EST
    the fact that race was in it long before Crowley and Gate knew of each other.
    Life and stories do not start at a moment in time.

    Assuming what you say is true, then gender, class, culture, nationality, etc are all in it long before any interaction.
    So when someone says "Gates/Crowley brought race in to it", I take it to mean that while all these other components are always part of the story, Gates/Crowley just focused on one component at that point in time.

    Parent

    The clear and direct question (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:56:33 PM EST
    is the fact that we live in a racist society, all by itself without any other information provided, grounds to accuse one person of being racist.

    perhaps it's a semantic disconnect.  i mean, we can choose different words.

    let's not say that gates brought race into it.

    let's say that race was always in it but that gates let his feelings about that precondition get the better of him and he made a false accusation applying a general to a specific.


    Parent

    If a society is racist (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:15:49 PM EST
    does that mean every individual in that society is racist until proven otherwise?

    Then what motivation does anyone have to act otherwise, if that is the assumption?

    Parent

    that's why i think my distinction is so crucial (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:19:29 PM EST
    and branding everyone a racist just because they live in a racist society, in a way, is a nice excuse for the boston officer.

    "I'm just like everyone else."

    Parent

    We live in a judgmental society (none / 0) (#167)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:04:14 PM EST
    Good point. (none / 0) (#166)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:02:19 PM EST
    Especially when we first meet someone, we consciously and subconsciously analyze every external visual cue such that we can "better" evaluate and communicate, etc.

    That it is very true that race, etc., were in it long before the two met is one thing, that Crowley's perception is that Gates accused him - HIM! - of being racist is quite another.

    Parent

    I don't think it's just a perception (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:07:44 PM EST
    gates called him a racist, and has continued to do so in interviews.

    and yet no proof has been given besides the fact that crowely is part of a system that is regarded by intelligent people as racist.

    we have proof about the boston cop.  

    my thesis is NOT that race isn't always in it.  It would be a strawman to attack me as if I did and i hope no one has worked themselves up thinking I did say racism is not part of our society, that race isn't always with us.

    my thesis is that it is not grounds to call someone a racist.


    Parent

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#178)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:11:30 PM EST
    I said "perception" because there is some disagreement as to exactly what Gates said during the incident...

    Parent
    If there is an argument out there (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:13:33 PM EST
    That Gates did not call Crowely a racist, then I have yet to see it.

    The argument I have seen so far is that calling someone a racist is not enough of a reason to arrest Gates.

    I agree with that.


    Parent

    I believe I read a Gates interview (none / 0) (#193)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:24:58 PM EST
    where he disagreed with Crowely's representation of his "black man in America" comment. Gates' version was much less inflammatory, iirc.

    However it's of little importance to the bigger issue, and I'm way too lazy to try to find the interview...

    Parent

    i also wanted to add (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:10:50 PM EST
    a witness has been called a racist just for, allegedly, providing a more thorough description of someone.

    so she had to defend herself and set the record straight sending the message to all of us that a mere thorough description of someone is grounds to brand us a racist.


    Parent

    It was Crowley (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:18:06 PM EST
    who wrote up his police report in such a way that the witness appeared racist.  Blame it on him.

    And you can't lock someone up for calling you a racist, btw.  

    Parent

    i have no reason to question (none / 0) (#189)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:22:05 PM EST
    Crowely's report regarding Gates's behavior and Gatess behavior and statements, after the incident, remains consistent with that report.

    I don't know how many times i have to say i think it was an improper arrest.


    Parent

    Even though Crowley's (5.00 / 0) (#191)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:24:34 PM EST
    report now has been exposed as having lies woven into it?

    Parent
    Discrepancies (none / 0) (#194)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:26:15 PM EST
    If i neglect to mention a blue ford, and in the police report Crowely says i mentioned a blue ford, no one's calling Crowely a liar.


    Parent
    Not so (5.00 / 0) (#198)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:28:05 PM EST
    One of Crowley's witnesses has come forward very upset by what the media has been told her involvement was.  In Crowley's report he claims to have spoken to her and he did not.  He also claims that she made statements that she did not make to him or dispatch.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:36:40 PM EST
    The media made an issue of this and she had to clear her name because she was being called a racist.

    Parent
    Be fair. (none / 0) (#204)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:33:09 PM EST
    Who he said he talked to and what she said are one issue, not two "Smoking Guns!!!"

    It seems pretty possible and plausible that he believed what he was writing was factual.

    Parent

    He said he talked to her (5.00 / 0) (#211)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:37:38 PM EST
    She says she talked to nobody but the phone when she phoned her concerns in.  And she said nothing about black men, when she was asked for a discription at all she said that she thought that one of them might be Hispanic.  We have some lies here.  We have his conversations with the dispatcher.

    Parent
    BTD called Crowley a liar. (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:31:09 PM EST
    You commented all over (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:37:44 PM EST
    BOTH threads dedicated to what Crowley wrote about Whalen.  And yet you somehow missed the point - that Whalen did NOT speak to Crowley and did not say ANYTHING about the race of the men in question???

    Where btw is Crowley's apology for this detail of his report which has now been debunked?

    Parent

    I makes no difference (none / 0) (#208)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:35:37 PM EST
    how many times you say it.  distinctions that fine seem to be pointless in this discussion.

    Parent
    And again (none / 0) (#159)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:46:33 PM EST
    you're not acknowledging the difference I have outlined prior.

    Calling you a racist without proof is different than us both acknowledging that we belong to a system that is inherently racist.

    One's fightin' words in my opinion.

    The other is a healthy discussion about race.


    Parent

    i think (none / 0) (#124)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:11:17 PM EST
    the evidence suggests he was the public face of the seamy underbelly.

    Parent
    You can say that again. (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:09:53 PM EST
    Barrett got into hot water after he fired off the note to his buddies in the Guard - and, inexplicably, The Boston Globe.
    Inexplicable indeed.

    You think so (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:11:44 PM EST
    I think there are a few potential explanations.

    Parent
    Don't keep us in suspense... (none / 0) (#131)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:14:35 PM EST
    Low IQ . . . (none / 0) (#135)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:16:42 PM EST
    Please note user id of commenter. (none / 0) (#132)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:15:05 PM EST
    You ever read the comments section (none / 0) (#126)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:13:42 PM EST
    in most newspapers? This was par for the course.

    Parent
    I guess not, are you telling me that (none / 0) (#138)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:18:47 PM EST
    Cops & national guard officers write in to the comments sections of newspapers using racial epitaphs, and those comments get printed? With the author's name? This is something you/anyone sees regularly/ever printed in a newspaper?

    Parent
    A Freudian slip there (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:20:10 PM EST
    "epitaph" indeed.

    Parent
    I think most people don't use their real names (none / 0) (#142)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:21:57 PM EST
    But I'm sure I've seen comments this bad. It's amazing how many stupid bigots are driven to write letters.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#134)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:16:28 PM EST
    "inexplicable" in the sense that it is unclear why he would jeopardize his job this way.

    But the original email was written by the cop to a Globe writer who the cop felt had written a stupid article.  So it's not as though he just copied the Globe because he thought they might be interested in his private thoughts.  He read something in the paper he didn't like and wanted to give the writer a piece of his mind.

    Parent

    Ah, that explains it. (none / 0) (#145)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:26:56 PM EST
    He didn't send it "to the newspaper" in a public sense, he sent it privately (or so he thought) to the article's author.

    I should have actually read BTD's link instead of just skimming it...

    Never mind!

    Parent

    Oh, I gave you too much credit! (none / 0) (#150)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:29:21 PM EST
    Sorry. I have no excuse. (none / 0) (#152)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:30:32 PM EST
    I don't understand how Gates made him do it (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:43:41 PM EST
    There seems to be more sarcasm there than a valid point.

    But Gates brought race into it and now a cop in Boston has responded by exposing himself as a racist.  So he will now lose his job with cause.

    The racist cop's response will be regarded by everyone as not Gates's responsibility precisely because the Boston cop has given us proof of his racism, and Crowely, because there still has not been any proof provided to show that he is racist (aside from general statements, "there is systemic racism and Crowely is part of the system."), Crowely will still appear sympathetic to anyone who has also been unjustly called a racist.

    Your last sentence is one (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:19:36 PM EST
    that I am hearing in conversation about this.  And that is unhealthy in terms of ever having the national conversation about race.

    Of course, more than 18 million of us were called racists quite recently and even here, on a lawyers' blog, and based on even less evidence.  Interesting me that aspect really has not been part of blogging about this recent event in Cambridge, as I think it's part of the reason why this incident is resonating so much with so many here and elsewhere.

    Parent

    i don't think gates's motives (none / 0) (#192)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:24:53 PM EST
    Have been a concern for me.  He's not running for office.

    Parent
    Restaurant adds 'Sgt. Crowley burger' (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:07:50 PM EST
    Restaurant adds 'Sgt. Crowley burger' to join 'Skip Gates burger' already on menu.

    Bartley's Burger Cottage in Harvard Square has had the "Skip Gates burger" -- a teriyaki burger with a grilled pineapple and side of onion rings -- on the menu for several years.

    Owner Joe Bartley said Wednesday he's introducing the "Sgt. Crowley burger:" a cheeseburger with grilled onions and gravy french fries.



    Please explain the significance of (none / 0) (#202)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:32:55 PM EST
    gravy french fries.

    Parent
    Ahhh, Bartley's burgers! (none / 0) (#215)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:41:48 PM EST
    How I miss them!

    Parent
    MT, it is entirely possible that (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:41:29 PM EST
    he spoke to someone in front of the house who he thought was Whalen. And/or plenty of other possibilities, none of which are stretches.

    Reply to Anne (5.00 / 0) (#216)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:51:06 PM EST
    I never said, in the original comment, or in the later one, anything about sweeping anything under the rug, so I don't know why you would ask me that question, other than because you'd rather respond to an imaginary comment than a real one.

    Sure you did. You took offense at the so called snark, which is exactly what makes BTD's comment excellent.

    That is what you want swept under the rug. You would prefer that Barret's ugly statement be isolated as something coming from one  "bad apple" and that any generalizing is out of line.

    Well I disagree. And I applaud BTD for his "snark". Of course your attempt to write off BTD's "snark" with the hyperbolic statement that what BTD is doing is as

    something which manages to slime everyone in the police department who wears a uniform.  
    is well noted as another absurd statement meant to apologize for the well documented fact that racism is prevalent in PD's all over the US.

    Disappointment for BTD (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by moderateman on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:05:41 PM EST
    BTD, long time lurker, first time poster.  I've followed this blog for almost a year now and I've become familiar with a lot of the personalities that post.  During the time I've followed this blog, you have consistently been my favorite to read because you are insightful and explain well.

    Like the other poster said, this post is beneath you.  I've noticed that with this episode (the whole Gates-Crowley-Obama affair) in particular, your tone has changed a lot.  It's not just snarky.  It's downright mean.  And not mean in a good way where you punish someone that deserves it.  It's mean in a "I've lost all sense of objectivity on this issue" way.  Come on BTD, live up to your name and provide a big tent for the different viewpoints on this issue.  There's room for disagreement here without getting snarky and mean.  That's what I've always respected you for and honestly, why I still read this blog.

    Please don't turn this blog into another shriekfest of how Republicans suck.  It's not interesting nor does it affect the opinions of anyone that doesn't already agree with you.

    Wait a minute (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:25:40 PM EST
    someone respects BTD because he doesn't get snarky and mean in response to disagreement?!

    Steve M. (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:33:57 PM EST
    Don't be snarky and mean.

    I'll lose respect for you.

    The Audacity of Hatred (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by Sheldon Hull on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 06:01:01 PM EST
    While President Obama is attmpting to something that no other president has done before, he faces unfair criticism from people who obviously hate him because of race. I'd like to know when a police officer has demanded an apology form a president in our country's history and gotten an invitation to sit down with the president? Meanwhile, there is still the issue of racist police who mistreat minotities and enter hostile situations with preconceived notions about who minorities are while not knowing any of us personally. Unfortunately, many minority police are brainwashed into thinking the same way as the white officers. They believe that we are all criminals, unintelligent, stereotypical realities of the portrayals perpetuated through the media. The police who supported Crowley could not possibly know what motivated him to arrest Professor Gates. They do not know for certain that his motivations were not racially urged. At the same time, I do not know that he was wrong. What I do know, is that my blood boils when I watch coverage of this issue and listen to people bash the president and the professor and proclaim that they are wrong and should apologize. If they apologize, fine. But who will apologize to all of the minorities who were and are mistreated daily? Who will apologize for the history of abuse by prejudiced police and a corrupt judicial system that protects them while they continue to mistreat us? If you want to know why there is a racial divide in this country, I know why. This is just one speck in the abyss of darkness and hatred that continues to plague America.  

    Sorry (3.50 / 2) (#16)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:20:33 AM EST
    You can't equate this a$$clown with Crowley unless you actually know what Crowley thinks, as opposed to what people insist on projecting on Crowley.

    Sorry (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:21:49 AM EST
    I did not equate him to Crowley.

    Why so defensive?

    I am actually making a different point.

    Parent

    Sorry (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:33:37 AM EST
    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the snark about  "look what Gates made him do" - implying that (sarcastically)the good and pure Gates also made that other racist cop (Crowley) do what he did.

    Never mind - I'll stay out of this discussion - I'm tired of all these people anyway.

    Parent

    Sorry snark (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:38:07 AM EST
    is what failed.

    Parent
    Matter of opinion (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:41:52 AM EST
    I suppose.

    Parent
    You're so much better (none / 0) (#146)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:27:05 PM EST
    at outrage.

    Also my opinion, of course.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:41:35 AM EST
    it seems to me you brought Crowley into it, not me.

    Parent
    No need to mention Crowley actually. (1.00 / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:24:09 AM EST
    I am pretty sure the word "Crowley" (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:28:08 AM EST
    is not in my post.

    Parent
    D*mn. You are correct--again. (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:30:54 AM EST
    Always (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:32:51 AM EST
    except when I am not. Which is NEVER . . .

    Parent
    the only reason is that (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:27:37 AM EST
    the Gates incident can not be taken a la cart.
    in spite of the fact that I think Gates was a pud his reaction, if you have ever lived and Boston you know what I mean, has to be seen against the backdrop of a city and a police department with a rich history of rampant racism.


    Parent
    So, you bringing race into it now? (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:28:42 AM EST
    race is in everything (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:30:43 AM EST
    didnt you know?

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:33:31 AM EST
    As long as Skip Gates is out there riling up nice police officers, who can expect anything else?

    Parent
    The Jury Is Out (1.00 / 0) (#99)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:58:14 AM EST
    And yes people do think Gates is out there  riling up nice police officers.

    Gates loses as have his apologists.

    Here are the numbers from the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll:

    29% say both Gates and Crowley are equally at fault.

    OK. But here is the tie breaker:

    According to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 27 percent of respondents said Gates was a fault - While only 11% said Crowley was at fault.

    Gates is clearly the loser here by 16 points.

    And in a separate article Colin Powell said this about Gates:

    "I'm saying that Skip, perhaps in this instance, might have waited a while, come outside, talked to the officer and that might have been the end of it," Powell said.  "I think he should have reflected on whether or not this was the time to make that big a deal."

    Powell also said:

    "When you're faced with an officer trying to do his job and get to the bottom of something, this is not the time to get in an argument with him," Powell told CNN's "Larry King Live."

    So basically Powell is saying Gates self-imploded by crying racist when there was no cause for him to do so and that is a fact.

    America has spoken in this poll. Gates screwed-up.

    But in Gates defense I think he did the right thing. He took full advantage of a situation that allowed him to stir the racial fires in America which according to his bio is pretty much his life purpose.

    And as a bonus he gave himself what any self-described civil right activist needs for street cred and that is a mug shot. Now he doesn't have to listen to Sharpton or Lewis any longer that he ain't all that because he has never been arrested. Now he's one of the boys.

    Perfectly orchestrated Mr. Gates. And a two-fer at that!

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:03:56 PM EST
    Well that settles it.

    You think I give a fig about that poll? I write what I think, not what the WSJ poll thinks.

    Parent

    Which is your (2.00 / 0) (#130)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:14:23 PM EST
    right to do, write what you think.

    It's just that a majority of America sees it differently than you do, as does Powell, speaking as a Black, does.

    Parent

    Kinda like how (5.00 / 0) (#136)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:17:52 PM EST
    Judge Cabranes, himself of Puerto Rican ancestry, felt differently than Judge Sotomayor about the Ricci case.

    Parent
    Cabranes (2.00 / 0) (#144)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:26:15 PM EST
    was judging the law differently.

    Powell wasn't judging the law, he was just suggesting using common sense. Something that Gates failed to exercise according to Powell.

    Parent

    Just agreeing (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:32:43 PM EST
    that it is indeed noteworthy when two people of the same race disagree about something.

    Parent
    Well yeah (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:36:41 PM EST
    My husband and I are of the same race ;)

    Parent
    Most Americans (5.00 / 0) (#115)
    by eric on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:08:22 PM EST
    are not trained in the law enough to know that this isn't a he said/she said situation.  A poll weighing the opinions of people about a cop and an "uppity black man", who is going to win?  No surprise there.

    But the issue is about the propriety of the arrest, and I think that issue is pretty well settled.  Crowley messed up.

    Also, your characterization of Gates doing this to get a mug shot and some street cred is offensive.

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#140)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:20:15 PM EST
    Yo think the poll mentioned an "uppity black man" - which are the words you put into quotations? I rather doubt that. But you have the right to inject you bias into it. But it is still bia. Fact is you have no idea what the poll asked even though you pretend to.

    As for your comment regarding my characterization of Gates - apparently yo have never sat in with civil rights activists. Being a Latino I have and you'd be amazed at what is said behind closed doors.

    Parent

    One more time (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:30:52 PM EST
    Gates/Crowley is Cambridge, not Boston.  The (well-deserved) reputation of the Boston PD has zippo to do with the Cambridge cops.

    Parent
    said it before (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:16:51 AM EST
    I have lived and worked all over the world.
    Boston is the most racist place I have ever lived.


    I am not familiar with Boston (none / 0) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:36:40 AM EST
    But I was intrigued when I watched 'The Departed' and the Costigan character tells his black friend that, "You're a black man in Boston....you're already effed", something like that.  Casting attempted to get as many actors who grew up in the area as possible for the film so that they could bring that identity into their roles.  That line in the movie always made me wonder about how racist Boston is.

    Parent
    coming from the south (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:40:29 AM EST
    I was stunned.  I learned racism is a fact and always has been in Boston but it is a unique blend of racism and classism.  Boston police have long been famous for it.  which is why you had people saying Gates was probably lucky he got Crowley and not, for example, the guy who is the subject of this thread.


    Parent
    This officer would have pepper sprayed (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:43:54 AM EST
    and tasered Gates ASAP. And used baton if neither of the earlier steps worked.  And Prof. Gates you say those handcuffs are too tight.  Ratchet.

    Parent
    Gates is a lucky man (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:47:04 AM EST
    to have had such a nice reasonable police officer to deal with.

    Parent
    Ha. (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:48:11 AM EST
    isnt the matter of fact (none / 0) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:50:58 AM EST
    way this guy airs his nazi beliefs evidence of exactly that?

    Parent
    Uh no (none / 0) (#87)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:52:16 AM EST
    I tellin you (none / 0) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:57:28 AM EST
    Crowley, as much as you might dislike him, is not typical of Boston Police as I remember them.
    THIS guy is.  its not surprising to me that Crowley is being held up as some kind of "racial healer" by his defenders.
    compared to the rank and file he most likely absolutely is.


    Parent
    Sgt. Crowley--Cambridge PD. (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:01:03 PM EST
    they all come from the (none / 0) (#102)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:03:00 PM EST
    same irish neighborhoods

    Parent
    Irish neighborhood? Nuh-uh (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:27:32 PM EST
    FWIW, Crowley does not come from an Irish neighborhood.  I know this because I grew up there, too.  It's about as mixed an area as you get in this country, various white ethnics, black, Asian, everything.  It's also pretty well mixed socioeconomically, lots of Harvard staff and junior faculty, even some senior faculty, other professionals of various types, as well as blue-collar and white-collar workers.  The public schools, at least at the grade school leve, are pretty good and they're the same kind of mix.

    Parent
    How do you know? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:04:40 PM EST
    Do you know Crowley personally or something?

    Parent
    because he teaches (none / 0) (#117)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:08:46 PM EST
    racial sensitivity.  or what ever the hell it is the did.  none of the cops I ever encountered would ever have had that particular duty.

    Parent
    Okay (none / 0) (#122)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:10:32 PM EST
    That does not make sense to me, but ok.

    Parent
    "pepper sprayed" (none / 0) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:07:08 PM EST
    I assume you have seen the video of the cop tasered the grandmother?  who was white by the way.

    THIS is what I am talking about.

    Parent

    Attorney's explanation of the officer's (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:19:38 AM EST
    comments:

    link

    Oh GOOD GRIEF! (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:29:36 PM EST
    His actions might also be characterized as those of a white cracker, but I notice he didn't reach for that comparison.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:20:32 AM EST
    See my comments in the Benton Harbor post. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:20:39 AM EST
    This cops attitudes towards "suspects" is common amongst all police. Police generally (my father was a cop) look at the entire general public as "suspects." They have the worst "us" and "them" mentally I've ever seen.

    this I think (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:24:11 AM EST
    was the conversation opportunity that was missed in Gatesgate due to the more media rich racial aspect.

    it is a very common problem.  has nothing to do with race.

    Parent

    Nothing to do with race (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:27:33 AM EST
    Oy.

    Parent
    WCHRM (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by Spamlet on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:33:17 AM EST
    I think that What Capt Howdy Really Meant is that police officers commonly assume that a "suspect" is guilty until proved innocent, and that this attitude persists APART FROM and IN ADDITION TO racism, which is not to say that the two attitudes are never conjoined (as in the Gates incident).

    Parent
    thank you (none / 0) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:34:05 AM EST
    the larger problem (none / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:29:37 AM EST
    has absolutely noting to do with race.  they see things as us and them regardless of race.
    the larger nation wide problem of police abuse was, you must admit, glossed over a bit in this case.

    Parent
    Ah well (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:30:32 AM EST
    the "larger" problem. Oy again.

    Parent
    I dont understand (none / 0) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:33:36 AM EST
    are you saying there is not a nation wide problem of police abuse of power?

    a problem that, in fact, has nothing to do with race?

    if you are I disagree.

    it should not be an arresting offense to scream at a cop.  and it is.  and its totally colorblind.


    Parent

    I'm saying (5.00 / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:40:35 AM EST
    that the "larger problem" that does not include race in the discussion is well, problematic.

    Parent
    you need to (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:48:44 AM EST
    get out into the middle of the country where good ole white boys (and girls) are routinely abused and violated by local law enforcement.

    it got worse during the Bush years.  big surprise there.  but thats when they learned stuff like that idiotic quote about the mistake of thinking he had rights.  that is how they think. thats how they are taught to think.  hate to keep bringing it up but I have three in my family.  one good one and two bad ones.  its really not about race its about power.  are they almost always racists, of course.

    I can tell you plenty of stories of police abuse in areas where there are nothing BUT white people.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 0) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:51:41 AM EST
    anecdotal evidence is nice and all, but the quantitative data bears my point out I believe.

    Parent
    I'm a white guy (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:03:36 PM EST
    and I enough anecdotal evidence to fill a book on police abuse of power. Cap'n Howdy is right, it's not mostly about race. Look at the Crowley/Gates incident. It was pointed out that a black cop backed up Crowley. It's about power. BLUE POWER.

    Parent
    I think every situation needs to be judged (none / 0) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:08:57 PM EST
    singularly.  For the officer who is the subject of this post, race is obviously a factor.

    Parent
    One such local officer told me he (none / 0) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:55:30 AM EST
    was shocked (and he seems to have a nervous tic now too) to discover that a local person had made prepartions to snipe him from a rooftop or something across the street from where he lived.  The cop has been about as demoted as he can be at his age but he never gets fired.  He showed up here though months back to block the street when my husband accidentally downed powerlines while cutting out a dead tree.  I was not shocked at his story though.  We had met previously :)

    Parent
    yeah...duh. (none / 0) (#83)
    by coigue on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:50:27 AM EST
    How about the Caucasian lawyer (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:32:17 AM EST
    yelling "I hate police."  At midnight in DC as law enforcement was across the street.  See AP.  

    Parent
    This one is so easy for me (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:50:16 AM EST
    Probably because I live with a different sort of public servant, but being in the "role" of law enforcement is a position of authority.  My teenage daughter got mad at me a few times and called me a "being in total control of herself" person and I calmly stood there and continued to encourage the peace while her frontal lobes were momentarily challenged.  I did not get out the pepper spray or the taser.

    Parent
    Here's an idea. Sensitivity training (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:04:23 PM EST
    for male law enforcement:  be a stay at home mother of mouthy teenagers.  

    Parent
    No kidding (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:15:43 PM EST
    I can't believe how thin skinned so many of these real men with the manly man job are.  I can't believe how okay they seem to believe being so fragile skinned is for a law enforcement officer.  What a bunch of friggin cry baby wussies!

    Parent
    Read up on (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:06:50 PM EST
    oppositional defiant disorder.  People with this disorder will deliberately provoke others to react.  The only way to win the game is not to play.

    Parent
    well (none / 0) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:34:56 AM EST
    lots of people of every color hate police in Boston.

    Parent
    Link: (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:37:51 AM EST
    Certainly wasn't me (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:39:40 AM EST
    I'm Latino . . .

    Parent
    I hate the police (none / 0) (#66)
    by eric on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:42:33 AM EST
    but I know, now, better than to ever even whisper this in their presence.  They will get you.

    Parent
    You didn't know that before? (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:45:39 AM EST
    Call me naive (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by eric on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:49:13 AM EST
    I thought I was in a free country.  When I was in college, people would regularly call the cops fascists at protests, but that was the 90's.  Now, apparently one can't do that because we must comply and obey the fascists.

    Parent
    like I said (none / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:52:46 AM EST
    the problem is getting worse and worse.


    Parent
    Lots of people agree with you (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by coigue on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:51:30 AM EST
    which is a symptom of pervasive police abuse of power in our country.

    Parent
    This whole country has been on 'Giuliani Time' (none / 0) (#32)
    by steviez314 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:26:47 AM EST
    since 2000.  The damage may not be repairable.

    I'd go further back... (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:14:01 PM EST
    than 2000...I think this downward spiral into authoritarian dystopia started in the mid-80's...thats when the "tough on non-state sponsored crime" mantra really took off.

    Parent
    BTDs reference to Ed Meese above (none / 0) (#177)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:11:01 PM EST
    is spot on, IMO.

    Parent
    As Pam said (none / 0) (#168)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    at pandagon:

    I just want to point out that the fact that we're talking about a beer summit confirms the role of class in this whole brouhaha, an issue I raised earlier ("Why class does matter in the Gates arrest debate"). They are not sitting down to share a bottle of wine; the decision to "lower the class bar" by using the alcoholic beverage of the working (class) man is quite purposeful...

    [snip]

    Of course this is all artifice; Crowley is sitting down with the President of the United States and a superstar scholar from Harvard. Gates and Obama are way above Crowley's station in their professional and social spheres. However, what the Gates incident has taught us is that if you take Barack Obama, Henry Louis Gates or any prominent black man out of context--they can still easily and quickly drop well beneath Crowley's station given the right (or more accurately, wrong) circumstances. In the often-disappointing real world colored by perception and stereotypes, it's a rude awakening. If the President and Prof. Gates are anonymized into the average black man, it is still a world of driving while black, voting while black, shopping while black, hailing a cab while black, and now, being in your own home while black that they would experience.

    Imagine how different the encounter would've been if it was say Harold Bloom.

    If Harold Bloom (none / 0) (#174)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:08:50 PM EST
    Started calling him a racist and saying "you haven't heard the last of me."....

    Parent
    Um, no. (none / 0) (#175)
    by lilburro on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:10:16 PM EST
    Try using your imagination a little more.

    Parent
    I don't see relevance (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:11:56 PM EST
    Of imagination.  Harold Bloom wouldn't have started yelling at crowely calling him a racist.


    Parent
    Maybe not called him a racist, (none / 0) (#205)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:33:29 PM EST
    and I have no idea what Harold Bloom is like when riled, but for the sake of the analogy, he may have called Crowley an idiot, an ignoramus, nitwit, or even delved into the Shakespeare canon for a class/intellect based insult.

    Might have been enough to get the same rise out of Crowley.

    The class aspect of the whole thing then would be what we were discussing. And I bet it never would have made it into an Obama presser.

    Parent

    Don't you know who I am? (5.00 / 3) (#206)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:35:22 PM EST
    Well Done BTD (none / 0) (#170)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:06:36 PM EST