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Monday Late Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:31:55 PM EST
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Michael Jackson mania continues. Do you really care who will be singing at his memorial tomorrow? I don't. It was his singing and dancing I liked and would want to hear, not his friends. Meanwhile, LA Observed tells us Michael will be buried tomorrow morning at Forest Lawn in the San Fernando Valley and lists several other celebrities who are interred there. Followed by:

Lucille Ball was originally interred there, but her ashes have since been moved, says Find A Grave.com.

Find A Grave.com? How gruesome. Is anyone covering the Obamas in Moscow? I think it's great that the Russian president wore jeans today , but all I've seen besides that are Michelle and the girls' outfits (very cute, especially Sasha, love this photo) and the very important news that the Obamas will vacation this summer at Martha's Vineyard. [More...]

In the gag department (as in makes you gag): Sarah Palin's lawyer says her resignation "was an act of self-sacrifice".

Hopefully, you'll have more worthwhile topics to discuss than the ones I've found today.

I'll be back after the Bachelorette (spoiler: Wes goes home tonight), Weeds and Nurse Jackie. This is an open thread, all topics welcome. And please, no defaming the dead or the living.

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    Monday Late Afternoon Open Thread | 96 comments (96 topical)

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    Sasha... (5.00 / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:34:07 PM EST
    ...is the perfect name to melt the Russian heart.

    Except in Russian ... (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:40:18 PM EST
    it's a boy's name.

    A diminutive for Alexander.

    Parent

    Girls too (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:44:25 PM EST
    Alexander and Alexandra, sasha is short for both.

    Parent
    Primarily male ... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:50:21 PM EST
    in Russia.

    Parent
    Mainly Because (none / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:57:19 PM EST
    Alexander is an extremely popular name for Russian boys, more popular that Alexandra for girls. Russian girls that are named Alexandra, though, are nicknamed Sasha.

    Parent
    Background (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:59:55 PM EST
    on Sasha

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:01:51 PM EST
    That was the link I used too, above..

    Parent
    Perhaps my age is showing, but, to me, (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:41:47 PM EST
    the death of Robert McNamara is newsworthy.

    McNamara...one of "The Best (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:43:28 PM EST
    and the Brightest" whose life and talent, when transferred to government with worldwide military impact, became a cautionary tale.  He never quite made peace with his role in US involvement in Vietnam and he took a lot of heat for it since the late 60s.  Still, he was an effective Sec. of Defense in many of his management decisions and recommendations, particularly in the battles among the services, closing of bases (one in my little hometown) etc.

    Parent
    Little known anecdote from (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:23:22 PM EST
    McN's book.

    McN became close friends with the Kennedys over the years and this continued until the end.  Sometime in the 1966-7 period, Jackie invited him over to her NY apartment for dinner.  Things were going along fine, until a point where the conversation drifted to the war, which Jackie was firmly against.

    Suddenly she turns on the SecDef, begins pounding her fists on his chest, literally, as she cried out:  "Why don't you do something to stop the slaughter!"

    My kinda former First Lady ...

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:45:35 PM EST
    It was in the newspaper. When Rummy dies it will also be newsworthy.

    Parent
    Rather dismissive, no? (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:06:37 PM EST


    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:18:05 PM EST
    I'll save my sympathies for all those who died at his hands. Not my kind of guy.

    Parent
    How so? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:45:51 PM EST
     

    Parent
    Chiming in (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:50:04 PM EST
    He was the architect of the Vietnam War - the ramifications of some of those decisions we are still dealing with today.

    Parent
    and the stupidity (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:04:12 PM EST
    of not learning the lessons of the Vietnam tragedy, but ignorantly blundering off into Afghanistan and Iran, where we didn't even have the token support of a colonial government.  

    Parent
    McNamara publicly stated (none / 0) (#32)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:27:48 PM EST
    his regrets about the Vietnam War a few years ago

    Parent
    Big deal. (none / 0) (#43)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:14:01 PM EST
    He's sorry.

    Parent
    Beg to differ (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:30:39 PM EST
    When a public figure so identified with a major political decision later states his position was wrong, it is important for all to consider what lesson could be learned from his insights as to how the mistake was made, e.g.

    Parent
    In addition, during his tenure as (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:45:04 PM EST
    Secretary of Defense he told President Johnson the war in Vietnam was unwinnable, but the President ignored that advice and then removed McNamara from his post.  

    Parent
    So? (none / 0) (#81)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:35:12 AM EST
    Johnson had an even bigger ego that McNamara.
    So?

    There are probably a bunch of enablers who said to Bush at one point or other that the war in Iraq was unwinnable.

    A lot of good that does.
    All those deaths later.

    Parent

    Another McNamara Contribution (none / 0) (#100)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:59:30 PM EST
    As shown in the movie, 13 Days, and true to the tapes of the Centcom meetings, it was McNamara who came up with the notion of a quarantine as an action short of blockade.  

    Parent
    His decision to commit the U.S. to (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:42:39 PM EST
    war in Vietnam had a tremdously adverse impact on people of my generation.  

    Parent
    Ummm no. He wasn't the president (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:52:26 PM EST
    and he wasn't in the congress.  He was only the Secretary of Defense.  One man.

    I place far more blame on President Johnson (just listen to those tapes of his agonizing conversations with Richard Russell) and General (light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel) Westmoreland.  And then, of course, the Republicans and Richard Nixon...and the public who fell for a 'secret plan to end the war.'

    No.  The problem was never really McNamara.  The problem, then and now, was us.

    Parent

    Have you read today's NYT article on (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:56:02 PM EST
    McNamara?  I don't disagree w/your assessment; just asking.  I still think it is important to acknowledge McNamara's life and death.  

    Parent
    Tim Weiner's? Yes. (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:18:58 PM EST
    A very fair obituary, on balance.

    I can't imagine how tortured McNamara must have been from '67 on, having concluded...and told President Johnson...to stop bombing North Vietnam and negotiate a settlement with the enemy.  Johnson fired him.

    His tenure at the World Bank taught similar lessons re unintended consequences of acting without knowledge and understanding in foreign affairs, economic as well as cultural.

    Parent

    Check as to Johnson (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:14:06 PM EST
    and Westy.  Two very stubborn men who refused time after time to reevaluate their overall strategy and instead insisted on doing more of the same.  By early 68, ferchrissakes Westmoreland wanted an additional 200,000 troops to add to the 550,000 already there.  Insane.

    As for Nixon, that great statesman was out there in the crucial 63-4 period publicly warning two different Dem presidents about the dangers to our nat'l security if we didn't stand tough over there.  Then once we were deeply in, thanks to Johnson following such advice, from Dick, Ike and others, he benefitted from the political conditions created by the quagmire in 68 to achieve the WH.

    Of course, too many of the public bought Nixon's "secret" plan to end the war.  In large part that was because too many in the unskeptical MSM of the day failed to press Dick on the matter, and since he learned his lesson from 1960, there were no debate opportunities for Humphrey to grill him about it.

    Parent

    I will never (none / 0) (#42)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:12:49 PM EST
    never forgive McNamara.
    He was a salesman. Like Powell.

    He had an agenda.
    The dominos.
    He lied.

    Johnson deserves his place where they roast eternally - but McNamara should be by his side.

    Nothing he ever did as a manager can excuse what he did to the country. How many lives were destroyed because of that war.
    The country, our country, has never regained whatever affection it once had from the world. The depth of immorality and corruption expressed and spawned by that war is with us still. It was the playbook for the war in Iraq;

    Parent

    Very interesting personal story, Don. (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:33:17 PM EST
    The situation with Diem was a real mess, and Kennedy by the fall of 63 was having difficulty keeping everyone on the same page re carrying out our policy over there, including on the matter of whether or when to remove the very repressive and unpopular Diem.

    It's my understanding that Kennedy's unfortunate choice for US Ambassador to VN, one Henry Cabot Lodge, failed to follow explicit orders from Kennedy not to allow a move against Diem absent his explicit instructions.  Lodge, and the CIA over there, together with a few disloyal types back here like Averill Harriman, appeared to have their own ideas about what was good policy, and largely because of their doing, imo, Diem of course was not only removed but murdered.

    As of late Nov 1963, Kennedy had called Lodge back to Washington, there to meet with Kennedy and be relieved of his duties as ambassador.  But Dallas happened, and instead Lodge held a briefing for a friendlier Lyndon Johnson, the meeting where LBJ told the assembled nat'l security group that he wasn't about to be the first president to lose a war.

    Parent

    Forgot to say, (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:47:09 PM EST
    sorry Don about your father.  

    Our family was a little luckier in avoiding the direct physical danger of the war.  

    It's good that you've been able to forgive though.  I don't know how I'd react in your circumstances.

    Parent

    The record I've read (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 09:47:59 PM EST
    on Diem's removal shows a muddled one with, still, many key records either not declassified or missing, or that was the case last I checked up on this issue.  

    US officials both in DC and Saigon were divided on whether to push for a coup, and Kennedy was caught with a tough choice of either continuing to back a very repressive and intransigent regime, or roll the dice with a coup and hope the replacement would improve the situation.

    It's possible that Kennedy in the end did green light a move (though clearly not the brutal manner in which it was carried out), just as it's possible that he wanted to continue staying with the status quo for a while longer and that the generals and CIA in Saigon misread some perhaps less than clear instruction cables from the subtle and highly nuanced Bundy.  

    As to McNamara, towards the end he did advise Kennedy that he needed a firmer policy one way or the other re Diem, and iirc McN personally may have preferred Diem be gone.  Whether he or some other higher up at the Pentagon sent something out to Saigon re definitively moving on Diem, I just don't know if the documentary record is clear.  

    Parent

    You might find David Talbot's book (none / 0) (#101)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:17:41 PM EST
    Brothers somewhat enlightening on the relationship of Pres. Kennedy and what Talbot calls -- somethink like the national security community -- (CIA (from its OSS roots), etc), its antipathy to JFK leanings on foreign policy. The book is actually about Bobby Kennedy's belief that his brother was killed by a conspiracy, and Bobby's attempt to find out who was involved. In order to explain his views, Talbot begins the book with the history of this national security community, from its roots in the OSS.  The book ends with Bobby Kennedy's run for the presidency.  It is one of the most poignant books I have ever read, and for those who didn't live through the 1960s, a ring-side seat to the politics of the era.

    Parent
    Newsworthy (none / 0) (#18)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    When someone who perpetrated such evil as did McNamara leaves this world, it's as if some lurking funky presence has finally drifted away.

    Parent
    More to consider with same-sex marriage (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:48:11 PM EST
    Apparently this will be a challenge to the 2010 census:

    The Census Bureau faces logistical challenges next year in classifying legally married same-sex couples as married.

    The agency has said that the 2010 Census will report the number of married same-sex couples for the first time, a decision that thrills gay-rights advocates. It may seem like a simple change, but adjusting how the Census tallies people is not a simple matter, requiring everything from redesigning computer programs to testing accuracy.

    SNIP

    Some of the challenges:

    • Changing the software that processes Census questionnaires so that it doesn't automatically convert same-sex married couples to unmarried partners. Census is not confident it can make the change by 2010.

    • The federal marriage act may not apply to the Census but it does apply to every other federal agency that uses Census data to dole out federal funds and enforce fair housing and equal opportunity laws.

    • Any change in the way the Census is tabulated has a domino effect on most other data collected. Counting same-sex couples as married stretches the definition of family. Data used by all federal agencies - from family income to family size - would have to be reclassified.

    "We know for certain the vast majority (of same-sex couples) are not legally married," said Gary Gates, demographer at UCLA's Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation Law and Public Policy.

    Gates estimates 35,000 same-sex couples are married, but recent surveys show that 10 times as many report that they are.

    How the Census will report its findings is still to be decided. "This is an important issue and legitimate question that we're working to resolve," Kimball said.
    As much as I'm over MJ (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:02:57 PM EST
    a friend just showed me an DVD homage he made to MJ. Apparently MJ became a very positive and motivating force in my friend's life, and, for the past dozen years or so, a personal friend.

    Federer-Roddick final Wimbledon (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:27:14 PM EST
    men's match was simply stunning, exceeding the expectations of everyone.

    Andy Roddick is back.

    Game (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:06:00 PM EST
    I thought the fifth set would never end.
    It seemed as if neither player would lose his serve.

    It was like watching a perfectly oiled perpetual motion machine.

    Then - two little mistakes - and it's over.

    But I do think that Federer is in a class by himself.
    As one of the commentators said, he makes it look so easy.

    Andy can play, that's for sure.
    But he doesn't make it look easy.

    Then is something unaccountable about Federer.

    Parent

    Nukes and business (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:01:25 PM EST
    Obama is supposedly negotiating a reduction in nuclear stockpiles.
    There would still be enough to end the earth, so no one need fear.

    What is the stumbling block to negotiations, you may ask?
    Hold on to your hats:
    It is Obama's insistence on deploying those missile systems close to Russia.

    Bush lives.

    So, how does everyone feel about the (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:14:25 PM EST
    issue of abortion coverage as it pertains to health reform?

    There's this from Think Progress:

    As Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT) prepares to unveil the Senate Finance Committee's bipartisan health care reform legislation later this week, several blogs are reporting that Republicans on the Committee are pushing legislation that would require insurers operating within the new Exchange to to deny coverage for abortion services. From Raising Women's Voices:

    The Senate Finance Committee has been writing a health care reform bill and struggling to create legislation that will have bipartisan support. Chairman Max Baucus (pictured left) considered several compromises to win Republican support, so they can claim it is bipartisan legislation. One of these potential compromises comes in the form of an abortion exclusion, which would prevent abortion services from being covered by some or all insurance plans in the Health Insurance Exchange. We fear that members of the Senate Finance Committee are considering such a compromise.

    Should it pass, the Senate Finance version would be the only bill that specifically prohibits a medical service. As the Wonk Room points out, "if denying abortion services to women is the price of bipartisanship, then perhaps winning those one or two Republican votes isn't worth the price of jeopardizing women's health and well-being."

    And this, from US News & World Report:

    June 25, 2009

    Dear Honorable Pelosi:

    As the debate on health care reform continues and legislation is produced, it is imperative that the issue of abortion not be overlooked. Plans to mandate coverage for abortions, either directly or indirectly is unacceptable.

    We believe in a culture that supports and respects the right to life and is dedicated to the protection and preservation of families. Therefore, we cannot support any health care reform proposal unless it explicitly excludes abortion from the scope of any government-defined or subsidized health insurance plan. We believe that a government-defined or subsidized health insurance plan, should not be used to fund abortion.

    Furthermore, we want to ensure that the Health Benefits Advisory Committee cannot recommend abortion services be included under covered benefits or as part of a benefits package. Without an explicit exclusion, abortion could be included in a government subsidized health care plan under general health care. The health care reform package produced by Congress will be landmark, and with legislation as important as this, abortion must be addressed clearly in the bill text.

    Furthermore, funding restrictions save lives by reducing the number of abortions. The Guttmacher Policy Review, a leading pro-choice research organization noted "that about one third of women who would have had an abortion if support were available carried their pregnancies to term when the abortion fund was unavailable."

    Thank you for taking the time to consider our request. By ensuring that abortions are not funded through any health care reform package, we will take this controversial issue off the table so that Congress can focus on crafting a broadly-supported health care reform bill.

    Respectfully yours,

    Reps. Dan Boren (D-OK); Bart Stupak (D-MI); Colin Peterson (D-MN); Tim Holden (D-PA); Travis Childers (D-MS); Lincoln Davis (D-TN); Heath Shuler (D-NC) Solomon Ortiz (D-TX); Mike McIntyre (D-NC); Jerry Costello (D-IL); Gene Taylor (D-MS); James Oberstar (D-MN); Bobby Bright (D-AL); Steve Driehaus (D-OH); Marcy Kaptur (D-OH); Charlie Melancon (D-LA); John Murtha (D-PA); Paul Kanjorski (D-PA); and Kathleen Dahlkemper (D-PA).

    Nice, huh?  Gotta love Max Baucus and those Blue Dog House Dems.

    There is less and less about this effort to reform the system - I'd just like to know why it is that abortion rights are always deemed expendable.

    I've really had it with these people.

    Aggravating in the extreme. (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:37:29 PM EST
    If men got pregnant, . . .

    Parent
    Respectfully yours, (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 12:51:08 AM EST
    Reps. Dan Boren (D-OK); Bart Stupak (D-MI); Colin Peterson (D-MN); Tim Holden (D-PA); Travis Childers (D-MS); Lincoln Davis (D-TN); Heath Shuler (D-NC) Solomon Ortiz (D-TX); Mike McIntyre (D-NC); Jerry Costello (D-IL); Gene Taylor (D-MS); James Oberstar (D-MN); Bobby Bright (D-AL); Steve Driehaus (D-OH); Marcy Kaptur (D-OH); Charlie Melancon (D-LA); John Murtha (D-PA); Paul Kanjorski (D-PA); and Kathleen Dahlkemper (D-PA).


    Parent
    How do I feel about it? (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Radiowalla on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 11:45:32 PM EST
    I'll let you know after I finish setting my hair on fire.

    Parent
    There's an ON-GOING assault on family planning... (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 01:02:43 AM EST
    It started with the big Stimulus Bill back in February with the stripping of a provision that would have allowed states to more easily extend Medicaid coverage for contraceptive services. (Within the first 5 years these services would have helped an estimated 2.3 million low-income women prevent unintended pregnancies; and during that period it would have saved 200 million dollars according to the Congressional Budget Office.)

    And now we have so-called Democrats preemptively eviscerating upcoming health care legislation with this hideous letter to the Speaker of the House, proclaiming:

    we cannot support any health care reform proposal unless it explicitly excludes abortion from the scope of any government-defined or subsidized health insurance plan.

    The Blue Dogs cohort appears to have an orchestrated agenda to govern in a more regressive manner than the GOP - that much is becoming increasingly undeniable. But I wonder when folks will wake up and recognize this right-ward anti-democratic tilt actually begins at the top. Bob Herbert recently said:

    Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House.

    Talk about a low standard. Aren't GOP derived policies doubly wrong under Obama; after all this Democratic President and Congress were elected to neutralize the GOP and represent the progressive will of the people. Obama was given that mandate, yet he treats it like the buzzing of a pesky swarm of flies. What next.


    Parent

    Seriously p!ssed off. (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:59:15 AM EST
    and not much faith that our health needs will be protected.

    Parent
    Bob Herbert (5.00 / 6) (#71)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 11:07:47 PM EST
    turns in what may be his best column ever.

    The hardest lesson for people in power to accept is that wars are unrelentingly hideous enterprises, that they butcher people without mercy and therefore should be undertaken only when absolutely necessary.

    [. . .]

    The obscenity of war is lost on most Americans, and that drains the death of Robert McNamara of any real significance.

    He makes a fairly conclusory statement about Afghanistan that I'm not sure I agree with, but otherwise it's powerful. Go read.

    Yes. (none / 0) (#80)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 05:17:08 AM EST
    I just was about to link to the column by Herbert about McNamara and the war in VIetnam when I saw that you had done so.

    I am moved that he didn't mitigate his anger just because McN said "I'm sorry".

    It made my head swim when I read comments on this blog that said, in effect, that McNamara had some good points - a good manager, etc.

    Like saying Hitler made the trains run on time.

    I do agree with his statement about our current involvement in Afghanistan. Obama has yet to articulate a purpose or a goal for this exercise. I suspect because he hasn't a clue.

    And the war in Iraq - started in the same way as the war in Vietnam - by lies - goes on.

    I hold our government and our press in deep contempt.

    When someone writes something so clear, personal, and heartfelt as Herbert, it gives me hope.

    I hope his editors read it.

    Parent

    Froomkin (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:01:25 AM EST
    picked up by the Huffington Post.

    Per Glenn:

    Froomkin will be its Washington Bureau Chief and regular columnist/blogger.  Froomkin will oversee a staff of four reporters and an Assistant Editor, guide The Huffington Post's Washington reporting, and write at least two posts per week to be featured on its main page and Politics page.
    My initial reaction is that (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:31:21 AM EST
    I'm a little disappointed about this development; could be because I gave up reading HuffPo a long time ago.  Froomkin's really much too good to be hanging out at HuffPo, a place that I think brands him as a liberal whose views can now be dismissed out of hand, and whose stable of writers includes some who really lower the level of discourse.  I mean, would you want to be associated with a place that published that "humorous" piece about Sarah and Trig Palin that was utterly repulsive and served no purpose other than to trash Palin?  Me either.

    Well, maybe he will have something to say about general editorial content and raise the overall standard.  That would be a welcome development, so I guess I will wait and see what happens.

    Parent

    I completely agree (none / 0) (#97)
    by jbindc on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:51:54 AM EST


    Parent
    david rosenberg (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:23:24 AM EST
    on Squawk Box this morning (per the big picture, ritholtz; site)

    Unemployment is usually a lagging indicator when we are dealing with an inventory or manufacturing recession; During a credit crisis recession, Unemployment is a coincident indicator cycling back into the economy in a negative way;

    http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/

    i think that pretty much sums this up in its entirety.  The administration is trying to address this recession as if this were 1973.  It isn't.  We have 2 trillion in consumer debt, unless people have jobs and stop getting their hours/wages cut, more people will lose their jobs due to decreased consumption.  

    Senator Al! (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:19:36 AM EST


    Yeah! (none / 0) (#102)
    by weltec2 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:42:57 PM EST
    I like the sound of that.

    Parent
    Buried (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:37:08 PM EST
    Without his brain, evidentially..

    I just came through LAX this afternoon (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:30:24 PM EST
    and the airport security for all the celebs is going to cost a fortune -- the usual staff is on overtime four times as many homeland security forces as usual are on duty now.  Many are new to the job; we saw the mass meeting to train them.  

    And the hottest item in the LA airport today is a bin! the white plastic bins for all the stuff to go through the x-ray.  So many bins were set aside for the practice run for the training that there was a shortage in the regular line.  Finally, we were told to just leave our shoes on the belt but not in a bin.  Horrors, what a breach of homeland security!  

    Parent

    I've been wondering where you were (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:33:24 PM EST
    vis a vis TL.  Welcome back.

    Parent
    Thanks. Back from the outback (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 01:10:24 AM EST
    of Australia, a fantastic trip for a wonderful wedding as well as treks to visit ancient flora and fun fauna -- I cuddled a 'roo and an emu, conversed with a cockatoo, and saw penguins that formed a colony in the most populated part of an urban area.  And the indigenous peoples' art, wow . . . all an incredible lesson in the adaptability of some of the oldest human and animal and plant cultures in the world.

    Amazingly modern as it is in the big cities, too, the internet is iffier there, so I had little time for TL.  After all, between BTD and a cockatoo . . . well, the cockatoo kept telling us we were "loverly."  It won, hands down.

    Parent

    What part of the country? (2.00 / 0) (#78)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 03:18:16 AM EST
    I've lived in Queensland and Victoria. Great vacation spot.

    Parent
    Beautiful Victoria (none / 0) (#98)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 01:33:05 PM EST
    -- mostly marvelous Melbourne from the historic laneways to the incredible royal botanic gardens, 2000-year-old trees and all, but also Bunyip, Warragul, and other rural outskirts in the bush.

    We'll be going back to see more, now that we have family there . . . but only after I can forget how bad air travel is these days.  Ugh.

    Parent

    Melbourne is lovely (none / 0) (#99)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 05:23:20 PM EST
    I found it a very difficult country to live in, though. Do they still put a fried egg and slice of pickled beet on their hamburgers?

    Parent
    Yes! Ghastly combination (none / 0) (#103)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 08, 2009 at 09:59:15 AM EST
    plus pineapple, too!  And ketchup ("tomato sauce") -- for fries ("chips") costs extra.  But there were so many great and amazing restaurants and bakeries and more that I managed just fine without a real burger.:-)  

    Came home to have a good burger, though, and Mexican cuisine tonight, since Mexican is so rare there in Melbourne.  We found only one Mexican restaurant, where burritos cost mucho bucks.  Tried to tell Melburnians that it was the cheapest food in the U.S.  They didn't believe it. . . .

    Parent

    I will tactfully avoid ... (none / 0) (#5)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:42:15 PM EST
    all the possible punchlines to that.

    Parent
    and his coffin will be (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:45:10 PM EST
    encased in concrete so no one can rob the grave. And I thought findagrave was gruesome.

    Parent
    All graves are concrete lined (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:57:29 PM EST
    We just buried my mother.

    Parent
    Even Pine Boxes? (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:00:26 PM EST
    Orthodox jews would be turning in their graves were this true.

    Parent
    Not sure (none / 0) (#25)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:03:32 PM EST
    this was a Catholic cemetary. I was surprised. Didn't realize all graves house the coffin in a concrete "vault". I suppose it makes sense or the wood coffins would deteriorate from water soaking the ground after rains.

    Parent
    Not Required (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:09:41 PM EST
    Many cemeteries use cement liners for their graves, but it is not law. Some cemeteries are "green" and do not allow any liners at all.

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:46:44 PM EST
    So much for resurrection etc, although maybe concrete is porous enough for transmigration.

    Parent
    I've never heard of problems (none / 0) (#29)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:13:13 PM EST
    at celebrity graves. Did Elvis have special securities put in place?

    Parent
    elvis is buried (none / 0) (#79)
    by cpinva on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 04:00:04 AM EST
    at graceland, so i assume their security system guards his tomb.

    Parent
    Oy. (none / 0) (#31)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:27:44 PM EST
    Sure makes ya think twice about wanting to be an uber-star!

    Totally tacky alert!:

    Wonder if they will clone said brain?

    Parent

    Dunno (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 06:53:59 PM EST
    But the russians have Lenin's brain among others in a jar somewhere.

    Parent
    Ahhh, to be a nobody . . . (none / 0) (#46)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:35:10 PM EST
    and keep my brain ;)

    Parent
    Turkisk Reality TV (none / 0) (#11)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:48:03 PM EST
    Hmmm ... wonder if we'll get a US version?  ;)

    ISTANBUL (Reuters) - What happens when you put a Muslim imam, a Christian priest, a rabbi and a Buddhist monk in a room with 10 atheists?

    Turkish television station Kanal T hopes the answer is a ratings success as it prepares to launch a gameshow where spiritual guides from the four faiths will seek to convert a group of non-believers.

    The prize for converts will be a pilgrimage to a holy site of their chosen religion -- Mecca for Muslims, the Vatican for Christians, Jerusalem for Jews and Tibet for Buddhists.

    For the rest of the story click here.

    the premise should be reversed (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:51:36 PM EST
    the atheists should be trying to convert the religious leaders.  much more interesting.

    Parent
    Now THAT show ... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:52:25 PM EST
    I'd watch!

    Parent
    Ya never know... (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:03:12 AM EST
    that might end up happening anyway. I mean what is easier to convince somebody of...that this is it, or that there are virgins waiting in a harem in the clouds for you, or that virgins can give birth, or burning bushes can talk, or a man in the clouds hates bacon?

    Then again, the monk might have some luck, Buddhism isn't techinically a religion.  My money is on the monk or the atheists making headway...no way they get any atheists to buy the other three's mumbo jumbo.

    Parent

    You missed (none / 0) (#15)
    by lentinel on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:51:13 PM EST
    the report in Huffpo that Obama will be golfing with Tiger Woods.

    Now that is newsworthy. (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:46:01 PM EST


    Parent
    Latest Goldman Sachs FAIL (none / 0) (#40)
    by lambert on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:06:33 PM EST
    Huge Goldman Sachs FAIL as 32 megs of proprietary trading code stolen, and uploaded to a German server. Too bad these guys are, like, running the government...

    I can't wait to see if this grows (2.00 / 0) (#47)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:36:45 PM EST
    a thread as long as the one on MJ's brain or ...

    Parent
    If only drugs were legal, would this (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:38:46 PM EST
    have happened?

    I don't see how making drugs legal would (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 09:04:29 PM EST
    keep someone from harassing an ex.

    Parent
    Me neither. (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 09:06:12 PM EST


    Parent
    Knowing popular culture (none / 0) (#92)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:54:28 AM EST
    we'd have blog wars about which drugs were "cooler".  Drugs would become fads.  Drug lobbyists would pay film makers to feature the positive aspects of their drugs while portraying competing drugs as the choice of losers and has-beens.

    Marion Berry's choice of drugs wouldn't be the main topic of discussion as much as his various other activities.

    Parent

    Now that the stimulus is about 30% spent (none / 0) (#61)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:44:38 PM EST
    between tax and UI extension, is America ready for the October crash I predicted last year?

    The anemic stimulus that is supposed to kick in in the 3rd and 4th quarter will be woefully inadequate and we are headed for another big dip.

    Dow at 6800 in October, UE at 11% and home prices at 1999 levels.  You can no longer blame Bush as policy and how to address the employment CRISIS is completely in Obama's hands.  

    Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 10:47:51 PM EST
    economic advisors admitted in the NY Times that their economic models were off. Grrr...do these Univ of Chicago Milton Friedman apostles supply side idiots not realize that their own policies are what wrought this mess we're in?

    Obama should fire his ecnomic team now!!! He shouldn't wait until everything collapses and then fire them out of desperation.

    Parent

    It is my sincere hope that you are wrong. (none / 0) (#74)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 12:53:18 AM EST


    Parent
    me too (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:15:37 AM EST
    but the numbers seem obvious.  Delinquency on mortgages including alt A, heloc and credit cards are still rising, in fact rising quicker. Sub-prime is still boiling.  People are falling off UI extended benefits and employers are still having to cut payroll because consumption is woeful.  We are competing directly with last years cash in hand stimulus and the bump to seniors is come and gone in the 2nd quarter.

    Last October I said we had a jobs CRISIS, not a typical downturn in the economy but a crisis.  Americans need jobs.  600k a week are filing new UI claims and the statistical model that tells us we lost 450k last month is bunk.  The birth/death model is antiquated and we should dump it.

    Commercial real estate and hospitality are right where i said they would be last october, in the crapper.  Auto sales inflated after tax season and will drop significantly over the next few months as people hunker down because their employers are cutting back.  State gov't, county gov't and cities will be forced to downsize this summer and making for a tsunami cocktail.  

    Not one of my fortune 500 clients foresees hiring until late in the first qtr of 2010 and possibly not until the second qtr.  They all expect anemic 3rd qtr, and are hoping for a small bump in the fourth qtr.  

    Even if the stimulus were to spend 300 bn in the 3rd and 4th qtr which it isn't, it would be consistent with last years stimulus.  We don't need free money, we need jobs and lots of them....

    Parent

    Is the continual (none / 0) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 10:49:59 PM EST
    drum of bad economic news putting anybody else in a continual foul mood?

    Of course it's your blog (none / 0) (#82)
    by Baal on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:25:22 AM EST
    but the number of posts you devoted to "the Batchelor" is the blogger equivalent of the Jackson funeral coverage.  

    Pop culture knows no boundaries! (none / 0) (#84)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:50:19 AM EST
    Especially the boundaries of taste and ethics.  Romancing someone for fame and money?   Groupies and gold diggers need better publicists and a reality show!

    Parent
    a very smart review (none / 0) (#83)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:37:59 AM EST
    of Bruno from slash film

    Rather than outline Bruno for you or chew over too many of its finer formal qualities, I want to address the film in a slightly different fashion.

    When we get to December, Bruno might not still be the best comedy of the year, but I'll eat Werner Herzog's shoe if it isn't the best documentary. Sacha Baron Cohen and team here paint a picture of our society that we really shouldn't be looking away from, and share a point of view that we shouldn't decry out of hand. Even if you decide, after careful consideration, that this movie isn't showing an accurate view of the world, you at least owe this same world that careful consideration. Myself, I've been left amazed how piercing and truthful this portrayal of people actually is.

    Like Borat before it - and before that, nothing else in all of cinema, I believe - this movie is a fiction film that intersects with reality in breathtaking fashion. Between a few cleverly conceived but, ultimately, low-point sequences of full-on, totally dramatized scenes, the film shows us a series of incredible encounters between a fictional flamboyant fashionista and a number of real members of society. Cleverly, the fictional character of Bruno is consistent and understandable, if completely and purposefully unrealistic, while at the same time not ultimately the real focus.

    Where a great piece of fiction can refract the human condition through a created character, a model in which we will recognize elements of ourselves, Bruno instead seeks to catalyze real human actions by imposing a character as a stimulus to real individuals, and capturing an image of humanity in their resulting behavior. Through their encounters with the caricature, the `real people' in Bruno are lead to reveal something of themselves, and through the film's varied selection of situations and people shown, and range of themes explored and provocations made, a fascinating tapestry of hypocrisy, stupidity and bigotry has been woven.

    ---

    This film comes recommended without any meaningful reservation. And if you think you're going to be offended then I especially want you to see it. There's really no point running away from it. Come join the debate.

    on the fence (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 10:10:21 AM EST
    so much of what cohen does is yell fire in a crowded movie theater.  let him play a stereotypical jew for two hours, lampoon his own heritage, then i'll buy it.  that would come with some REAL risk for him, as he'd have to act in a manner that makes HIM uncomfortable, not just those he wants to discomfort.  not that he can't be funny, i love some of his stuff, but i see none of the sort of groundbreaking anything to it.  it's crank phone calls come to life, esstentially.  jerky brothers with an accent and tights.

    Parent
    I don't know... (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:04:26 AM EST
    because drug-addled clowns are more entertaining in the train-wreck sense than your typical clown?

    They could do a lot worse (none / 0) (#90)
    by CST on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:22:37 AM EST
    than the vineyard.  Just spent a week there, and my stress level is waaaaay down.  Plus we finally had some nice summer weather for the fourth.  Of course, it's raining again today...

    Abe Lincoln (none / 0) (#93)
    by Sweet Sue on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 10:07:00 AM EST
    President Lincoln was disinterred and reburied under cement because the Feds had interrupted a plan to rob his grave and hold his body for ransom. If memory serves, the authorities intercepted and arrested the criminals at the original gravesite.

    Monday Late Afternoon Open Thread | 96 comments (96 topical)

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