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Ambinder: Obama Will Toss Public Option

Marc Ambinder:

The White House and Senate Democrats won't buckle to demands from liberals that they revise their health care strategy, officials said today. . . . A White House official conceded today that Obama would have to weather anger from liberals for a while.

. . . House Democrats are on a different track, and it's hard to see how it intersects with the White House's. Leaders plan to redouble the sales pitch for a public plan, reasoning that if they can move public opinion a few degrees -- largely by exciting liberals -- they can help their colleagues respond to conservative pressure. Privately, White House aides have communicated to the House leadership that the onus on changing minds about the public plan is on Congress, not on the president.

(Emphasis supplied.) In case you were wondering if Obama is going to fight for the public option. Ezra Klein rules our world.

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    And this (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:11:45 PM EST
    should surpise who? I guess at this point any reform is dead.

    Oh (5.00 / 10) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:13:12 PM EST
    and I should give huge kudos to those in the house, especially Weiner, who is doing some very heavy lifting and working his butt off to get something done which is more than I can say for a lot of them.

    Parent
    Why did this guy even want to be President? (5.00 / 9) (#2)
    by JoeCHI on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:12:45 PM EST


    Ego. (5.00 / 12) (#4)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:14:30 PM EST
    Reminds me of a headline (5.00 / 8) (#7)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:18:37 PM EST
    I noted in an earlier comment on another thread, about Brett Favre:  "The Ego Has Landed."

    But in Obama's case, he has crash-landed.

    Parent

    Some wings (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:25:58 PM EST
    need to be clipped . . . .

    Parent
    I'm sorry (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:49:10 PM EST
    but that's too funny. You have a wicked sense of humor.

    Parent
    I'm really worried about Obama's brand... (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Exeter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:10:29 PM EST
    It's not about us, its about him.

    Parent
    Because he could (none / 0) (#107)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:06:42 PM EST
    Pretty simple.

    Parent
    You know what Sarah Palin said (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:15:43 PM EST
    "There is only one man in this election who has ever really fought for you..."

    Maybe not for me (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:23:37 PM EST
    But at least for someone.


    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:19:32 PM EST
    that nyt article that everyone's buzzing about... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Turkana on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:18:08 PM EST
    the one that says the dems may go it alone...

    hidden inside it is the real story:

    With no need to negotiate with Republicans, Democrats might be better able to move more quickly, relying on their large majorities in both houses.

    Democratic senators might feel more empowered, for example, to define the authority of the nonprofit insurance cooperatives that are emerging as an alternative to a public insurance plan.

    um.

    Interesting if the Dem community (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:19:54 PM EST
    organizes Obama on this, rather than the reverse.  The commenter here who explained Obama's methods in terms of community organizing really called it as to why that model simply does not apply.  

    Parent
    judging from the wapo article (5.00 / 8) (#13)
    by Turkana on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:23:54 PM EST
    he barely notices us.

    Parent
    Why would he? (5.00 / 5) (#86)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:00:32 PM EST
    With all due respect, if he figures that you'll never vote for the opposition he has little to no reason to curry favor with you. It isn't like the progressive community hasn't declared where all their proverbial eggs are placed(firmly in the Democratic basket).

    Parent
    Because he may need the votes (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:46:18 PM EST
    the way that it's going.  Elections are won or lost by who stays home (ask the Republicans re 2008).

    Parent
    He's got your votes (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:56:56 PM EST
    It's a two party system. It's either him or the GOP. Considering the progressive groups derision of anything Republican he figures you're a sure thing.

    Parent
    No, he doesn't. Again (5.00 / 5) (#114)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:35:02 PM EST
    you are not factoring in turnout.  Again, see the 2008 turnout, which was not an increase.  But Republicans stayed home.  

    A lot of Obama's votes were from new voters.  Some will not get as excited again about the newness of it all -- of them as voters, of an AA president -- and especially if they see that instead of hope and change, he's just the same-old, same-old.

    Parent

    If you stay home (none / 0) (#116)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:45:18 PM EST
    then you are essentially voting to replace him.

    In 2008 McCain got a vote of no confidence from the conservative community, the net result was Obama won.

    I am factoring in turnout.

    Obama is essentially banking on your continued position that a ineffectual Democrat is better than the alternative(a Republican).

    Call me tinfoilly but I particularly think Palin's death panels were played up in hopes that the progressives would charge to his rescue on health care.

    Parent

    Of course, you also (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:55:57 PM EST
    are ignoring the Electoral College.  It didn't matter what I did with my ballot in my state in the presidential race this time -- so for the first time, I did a write-in on that line.  What the heck, voting for Dems, I haven't voted for a winner in a long time, anyway.

    And now more than ever, I know that I cast my vote wisely -- because I did not vote for an ineffectual Democrat.  I voted for a very effective one.

    Parent

    My state was one of the cusp ones (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:16:53 PM EST
    My vote wasn't enough though. I get to watch the term liberal and left be tarnished by someone who isn't in any way, shape or form even remotely interested in pretending he cares about the left side of the aisle.

    I got to be considered "bitter"(among other lovely terms) following the primary. I guess now it will be the rest of the party's chance to experience "bitter". I would gladly exchange my opportunity to say I told you so for Obama to actually support reform on health care or the banking industry(he can pick)in a NY minute.

    This is kinda like watching a avoidable train wreck for me.


    Parent

    Do you also knit? (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:24:44 PM EST
    I do. I find the qualifier "bitter" coupled with knitter quite refreshing. It's kinda like bitter herbs. . .

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 6) (#126)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:33:36 PM EST
    I qualify as one of those "uneducated Appalachian hillbillies", who is just too slow to understand that all the candidates were "basically the same". I did consider knitting but I'd have had to put down the gun that I cling to dontcha know.

    Parent
    Working class (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:45:56 PM EST
    Well you've been warming a seat under the bus for quite some time. . . Welcome aboard mate!

    Parent
    yeah (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 08:14:29 PM EST
    but he's not factoring in the fact that there's probably a lot of people who might not sit home if it's Wingnut extravaganza against Obama who scares people vs. Romney the be all things to all people Republican who doesnt seem so scary. I'm mean after all, how radical can a Republican from MA be right?

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 08:45:40 PM EST
    the health care reform we appear poised to adopt is right out of the RomneyCare playbook.

    It guaranttes the private corporations a captive market.

    Parent

    Well his official thinks he can woe me (5.00 / 8) (#141)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 09:43:49 PM EST
    [...] They believe that Obama's favorability rating declines, largely from independents (and within that group, women), can be reversed if he reminds these voters of the bipartisan instincts in his bones.  link  

    As an independent and a woman, let me say the "bipartisan instincts in his bones" really turns me off. Now a strong leader able to push a single payer health care bill through Congress would turn me on big time.

    Parent

    Ditto (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:07:16 PM EST
    As an independent and a woman, let me say the "bipartisan instincts in his bones" really turns me off. Now a strong leader able to push a single payer health care bill through Congress would turn me on big time.



    Parent
    I am hearing you (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:22:18 PM EST
    The last time I did anything with this kind of bone instinct my role was something like barefoot and pregnant :)

    Parent
    White House really reading (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:34:08 PM EST
    those polls wrongly, I would say.  Obama sees this as a sign to cut and run.  What do women want?  What won a woman more than 18 million votes: a fighter.

    Parent
    The liberal leaning seldom have need (none / 0) (#148)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:07:42 PM EST
    of a lover :)

    Parent
    I am so willing to be wooed (5.00 / 4) (#149)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:18:27 PM EST
    I'll put my purdiest dress on and vote for him if he gives me a reason to. The plan as he and Congress have it though is garbage. Not even worth shaving my legs for.

    I'll be darned if I'm going to do all the work in this relationship from the get go. Nosirree, I'm not easy. If he wants me he'll have to work for it. He can start with REAL health care reform.

    Parent

    Hah! (none / 0) (#151)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 01:20:14 AM EST
    Bravo.  Well said!

    Parent
    D@mn you are good (none / 0) (#152)
    by MO Blue on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 07:47:04 AM EST
    Wish I had written that.

    Parent
    D@mn you are good (none / 0) (#153)
    by MO Blue on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 07:47:17 AM EST
    Wish I had written that.

    Parent
    Well, Gibbs refuted that claim today (5.00 / 11) (#25)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:47:12 PM EST
    saying that they are as committed as ever to bipartisan legislation - which is basically a pretty clear sign in my mind that Obama et al have no intention of instigating real healthcare reform on any level.

    Parent
    Gibbs has to say that (none / 0) (#30)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:56:36 PM EST
    Sure, Obama and Gibss still have to give lip service to bipartisanship--but something like we would certainly enjoy Republican support for a public option would be the type of bipartisanship I'd be looking for.

    Parent
    No I really don't think that in this case (5.00 / 6) (#40)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:44:06 PM EST
    he has to say that.  He could say, we are committed to "real reform" and if the Republicans would like to join us in producing relief for the American people we would welcome them, but we aren't going to allow them to obstruct important and critical legislation - that the American people need.  He doesn't even need to say "public option" in that statement.

    Parent
    I am being hopeful (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:24:49 PM EST
    but I hope Ambinder is just talking to a bunch of blowhards inside the WH and nobody important.

    If Obama won't support the public option, it's because he prefers bipartisanship.  And that is sickening...the worst of the possible "I Told You Sos."

    Well, Ambinder has long been (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by dk on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:27:40 PM EST
    Obama's stenographer.  So, it is either a) true or b) what Obama wants America to believe.  Regardless, the outcome is the same.

    Well some people are benefiting (5.00 / 6) (#18)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:31:35 PM EST
    from Obama dropping the public option.

    WellPoint's stock price surged as the prospects for a new "public" health insurance plan appear to be fading.

    Shares of the Indianapolis-based health insurance giant rose Monday -- a down day for the broader market -- in reaction to recent comments from the Obama administration that a public plan is not essential to health-care reform.

    WellPoint shares shot up 3 percent to close at $53.70 on Monday, even as the S&P 500 index fell 2.4 percent. Other insurers, such as UnitedHealth Group and Aetna, also saw their share prices rise. link



    That really tells you (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by CST on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:34:40 PM EST
    all you need to know about why to support a public option.

    Parent
    I thought it was very telling (5.00 / 9) (#22)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:42:12 PM EST
    Maybe I need to buy health insurance stock so that I can afford to pay my premiums and other out of pocket health care expenses.

    A new Democratic plan in the making? :)

    Parent

    As I suggested up thread ... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:59:20 PM EST
    voices supporting this sector are probably the main sources in Ambinder's piece.

    Parent
    except (2.00 / 1) (#37)
    by bocajeff on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:26:41 PM EST
    that you're wrong. Since this week in 2005, 4 years ago, wellpoint has gone from roughly 72 per share to 53 per share. that's over 20% loss.

    Parent
    Amazing! (5.00 / 9) (#38)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:35:12 PM EST
    Course, since the entire S&P index is down roughly 20% in the last 4 years, I'm not sure what we're supposed to infer from that.

    But more to the point, responding to a post about how Wellpoint was benefited from recent news about the public option by pointing out their stock price from four years ago is the very definition of a non sequitur.

    Parent

    I should remind you (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:49:47 PM EST
    that the stock market took quite a tumble about a year ago.

    Here's a chart comparing Wellpoint to the Dow and the S&P averages -- from 7 years ago, rather than 5.

    Link (hopefully this link works.  If not, use Yahoo Finance compare)

    And note that it's often very easy to pick two points in a company's history to say anything you want about their stock.

    Parent

    Well, I know this may not be popular but (none / 0) (#52)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:56:29 PM EST
    we need not forgo our capitalist economy to provide folks w/the services that they need affordably.  Can we reserve judgement and see what actually is offered before we throw out the baby with the bath water?  I mean the CBO themselves say insurance plans have advantages over gov't run insurance as it exists today.  The issue is, surprisingly, how much is paid to providers for the services they render.
    Medicare's FFS program provides a generally unmanaged approach to the delivery of medicine because providers are paid for the number of services they deliver and not for the quality of the outcomes they bring about.[14]  Health plans may be more able to manage care through their knowledge of members' health conditions, contact with providers, and centralized administrative arrangements.
    FYI, FFS = Fee For Service, i.e. Traditional Medicare.  

    Two points I'm making.  1 - There are things that are working today, let's improve them.  2 - I'm not necessarily a fan of capitalism.  I don't think however that we should demonize whole industries and risk hundreds of thousands of jobs because we don't like capitalism.  It's not fair to those targeted.  If that's the case, why not start a lobby to replace doctor's and lawyers with robots?  Our whole society is based on the making of money.  We all deserve some security in our careers.

    Parent

    The public option (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:01:17 PM EST
    is a market-based solution!

    Parent
    That isn't entirely true (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:13:13 PM EST
    The public option being sold is limited in scope. If you have a private plan through your employer you don't qualify for the public option. The public plan being purposed is a perversion of a market plan.

    A real market solution would open up the market to anyone for a price and then let the people decide which solution is more cost effective, a government option or a private option. The private companies don't want that though. They want their turn at the trough.

    Parent

    Sure, if that public option is (none / 0) (#59)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:07:41 PM EST
    Medicare advantage like.  

    Parent
    At least (5.00 / 6) (#19)
    by NYShooter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:33:24 PM EST
    We got that straightened out; we're the problem, the people who voted for him.

    And all this time I thought it was the Republicans.

    Whew! Now that we know he's got his priorities straight, we can move on.


    Independants (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:44:22 PM EST
    Obama and his advisers must have decided that the only people he has to pacify for reelection are the independants. Republican's won't back him and Democrat's have no choice. So the only group you have to worry about are the independants.

    I preferred GWB's philosphy better. Take care of the base and to h$ll with all the others. It seemed to work well for him.

    Which independants? (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:14:39 PM EST
    Certainly not THIS independant. I didn't vote for him last cycle and if he succeeds in passing this piece of cr@p I won't be voting for him again.

    Parent
    Could just turn a few more (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:19:06 PM EST
    "yellow dog" Dems into independents.

    Parent
    I'm actually hoping that at least (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:31:14 PM EST
    that much will come out of it. When we can get past the idea that picking sides is the best way to address issues perhaps we can move forward.

    Particularly when the sides seem limited to "bad" and "worse"

    Parent

    Both parties play the (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:41:12 PM EST
    American public like banjoes. The current theme both employ is the equivalent of I may be bad but the other guy is worse. End result is that we, the public, never get what we need. We just get bad policies that benefit the high stake holders.

    Parent
    Not really (none / 0) (#27)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:48:14 PM EST
    appeasing his base forced him to make decisions that resulted in plummeting job approval numbers because those decisions did not work.

    we, as progressives, believe all of our ideas are sound and practical (well, they are dammit!), so by following his base Obama would undoubtedly become the most successful president since FDR.


    Parent

    And we don't care ... (none / 0) (#29)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:55:35 PM EST
    if he's dragged there kicking and screaming.  It's the policies that matter.

    I don't believe the "Obama is next FDR" is dead yet.  Progressives in congress, and in the public at large, still have the ability to make it come true.

    Parent

    If the progressives do it, (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:46:05 PM EST
    WE are the new FDR. Obama will still be whatever he is, but no way he will ever resemble FDR.

    Parent
    "We are the ones we've been waiting for" (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by shoephone on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:49:33 PM EST
    LOL - but maybe so! . (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:28:05 PM EST
    "We" not including Obama, that is.

    Parent
    Harper's had an article.. (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:02:24 PM EST
    in July actually comparing Obama not to FDR, but to Herbert Hoover. Some of the similarities were unsettling. Sorry only the first page was available online.

    Barack Hoover Obama: the best and the brightest blow it again.

    Parent

    That's just Pols ... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:59:53 PM EST
    they're all led by some group.

    Parent
    Seems like Ambinder is suggesting that a (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:45:08 PM EST
    page from the playbook used to pacify neglected gay and lesbian organizations will be attempted to mollify the left of the lefts on health care/insurance.  Maybe they think that a nice cocktail party, or its legislative equivalent, will do the trick.  

    Better throw a party for the union (5.00 / 9) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:03:11 PM EST
    real quick.

    RIchard Trumka, likely the next president of the AFL-CIO, threatened over the weekend to withhold union support from those politicians. The White House isn't scared. An AFL-CIO official close to Trumka said that no one from the administration has been in touch with him to protest his words or endorse him.

    Wonder how the union feels about being publicly dismissed.


    Parent

    Welcome to the bottom of the bus! n/t. (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:47:35 PM EST
    Most of that article is ... (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:47:15 PM EST
    based on unsourced comments from "White House advisers and Democratic strategists" probably mostly people with ties to the Insurance industry fighting for their position.

    As long as the Progressive Caucus stands firm, the White House has only one direction to jump.

    The Progressive Caucus has 83 members.  The bill can't pass the House without them.

    I hope they have the cohones (none / 0) (#46)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:49:18 PM EST
    or the sense of perspective Obama apparently doesn't have.

    Parent
    They should really ... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    see it as a time for "enlightened self interest."

    If they want to be at the center of the debate for the next few years, and gain more power, this is the way to get them there.

    Parent

    That sentence you highlighted is amazing (5.00 / 7) (#31)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:58:52 PM EST
    Did they also communicate to House leadership that the WH staff would be out there undercutting them by telling the public that the public option was not essential?

    Couldn't be any clearer that in a battle between progressive interests and Republican/Blue Dog interests, the WH stands with the latter. Noted for future reference.

    I can see the headlines now. "15 years after (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by tigercourse on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:59:37 PM EST
    Hillarycare, Democrats fail at Healthcare reform again".

    Before this is over (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:26:24 PM EST
    I predict "left's left" will handcuff Ted Kennedy to his bed to ensure that he doesn't block a filibuster.

    No public option indeed!  I'll buy the handcuffs!

    The irony will be if the Democrats are the ones who finally drive me to move to Canada!

    We could carpool. (none / 0) (#44)
    by shoephone on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:46:38 PM EST
    I'd drive over 1-90 to come get you.

    Parent
    I'm there! (none / 0) (#50)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:52:33 PM EST
    Just let me know what time you want to go! ;-).

    Parent
    Fighter (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by TheRealFrank on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:45:30 PM EST
    During the primaries, one reason that I supported Hillary, is because I knew her better, and knew that she would put up a fight for some things.

    Their positions and plans weren't far apart, and I knew I was going to disagree with a number of things that either of them would do. But I felt like Hillary was more of a known quantity, who would, in some cases, more strongly fight for Democratic values.

    During the general election campaign, it seemed that Obama was moving towards being a fighter. But now it seems like he's more of a consensus builder after all. Which is not what this situation calls for.


    Wouldn't matter... (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by BigElephant on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:55:14 PM EST
    In this case being a fighter or not isn't the issue.  You could have Mike Tyson in office and things would look the same as Obama and Clinton.  The problem here is that things took too long to get going.  Obama should have done what Hillary did before, but failed.  Drafted this himself, and then got some folks in congress to carry it for him.  Game over.  There would have never been a fight.  

    Admittedly, that's easier when you're also not still fighting a couple of wars and trying to make sense of the economic mess, but that's what needed to be done.

    Parent

    She was to his left (5.00 / 12) (#60)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:09:12 PM EST
    on almost everything, health care (and the economy) among the top issues, as Paul Krugman repeatedly pointed out.

    She was used to being treated badly by the Repubs and the media. She wouldn't have been where she was had she not been a hell of a fighter.

    She definitely knew the Repubs and their methods inside and out; no Bambi in the headlights there.

    Parent

    Having experienced negotiating with them before, (5.00 / 9) (#74)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:38:12 PM EST
    she would have assumed the Republicans, and probably the Blue Dogs, were not going to cooperate. I can't see her taking anything off the table to appease them before they even started talking.

    Parent
    Not only that (5.00 / 5) (#140)
    by jen on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 09:39:04 PM EST
    but her time in the Senate earned her a lot of respect from some Repubs. Obama didn't spend enough time in the Senate to earn anything and it shows. He merely used it as a stepping stone to the next place.

    Parent
    He folded on us so fast on FISA (5.00 / 10) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:13:05 PM EST
    I didn't trust him an iota after that.....I mean come on man!  He was just a pol.....on a flying unicorn of hope and unity.

    Parent
    ToldJaSo (none / 0) (#78)
    by prittfumes on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:39:51 PM EST
    way way back when there was still time to do something, but you wouldn't listen. Remember?

    Parent
    I know there's a bunch of people around (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:45:13 PM EST
    here with really good crystal balls.  A round of cookies bartender....it's on me.  Make it all doubles.  Now I'm still stuck in today though and this is our President and this is what is going down.  I didn't support Obama until he got the nomination.  Jesus, who was I going to support....McCain?  Not in this lifetime

    Parent
    A McCain presidency (5.00 / 7) (#98)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:48:25 PM EST
    would have meant a fresh chance with someone actually committed to liberal principles in 2012.

    If we were going to get a conservative committed to protecting private interests I would rather have had one wearing the label Republican(as opposed to what we have now). At least then we'd have had a chance later on down the line. As it stands both "brands" appear to be the same and more people identify with the conservative label. Prepare to drift right again in 4 years since this will be seen as a Democratic fail.

    Parent

    Similarly (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:59:09 PM EST
    a Bush presidency in 2000 would have meant a fresh chance with someone actually committed to liberal principles in 2004.

    Not only did Bush end up more or less destroying the world, but we didn't even get a noticeably more liberal nominee in 2004!

    Meanwhile Justice Sotomayor's seat, and maybe one or two others, would be filled with Samuel Alito clones between now and 2012.  No thank you.

    Parent

    What? (none / 0) (#109)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:12:34 PM EST
    I thought Gore was pretty in tune with liberalism. Why would I have voted for Bush over Gore in 2000?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#110)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:16:36 PM EST
    that's not the way Nader and his voters looked at it.  Gore was supposed to be this corporate tool who was virtually indistinguishable from Bush.

    Of course, maybe that argument was completely wrong, and yet it's still true that Obama is virtually indistinguishable from McCain... but I'm instinctively suspicious of the same bad argument dressed up in a new set of clothes.  As disappointing as the Democrats can be, these elections still matter.

    Parent

    I wasn't a Naderite (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:34:56 PM EST
    and can happily say that I supported a "lockbox".

    I never said elections didn't matter. On the contrary, my position is this particular election mattered enough that I was willing to vote for the "real" conservative over the conservative dressed up in democratic clothing.

    Goolsbee and the stimulus, Harry and Louise along with the assertion that a government plan would mean asking the poor to choose between rent and health care, the Reagan reverance, the willingness to toss gays under the bus to score political points, and FISA were all "tells" for me.

    My vote was not given lightly.


    Parent

    Oh but we were staying the course in Iraq (none / 0) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:51:36 PM EST
    I just can't go there friend

    Parent
    We're (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 08:26:35 PM EST
    sending 1000's of troops back to Iraq, even as I write:

    Link

    Parent

    I know this is hard for some to understand (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 09:26:30 PM EST
    but human lives are never a black and white issue.  Pulling back has gone well in other places, but not in the North.  To be honest I figured something else somewhere else was going to pop first.  This has all been anticipated.  If we pull back and civil war breaks out we are going to reapply force to stop it if we deem that we can or until we deem that it is futile.  We broke Iraq.  I know almost nobody in uniform who is interested in watching the whole place run in blood because we destroyed the stability.  Look, we are still going to lose....we are at a place where all we get to have are degrees of loss.  We are pulling back though, when things like this flare we will do what we can because we are already f*ck#rs, we are attempting to contain how horrible we actually end up being and how much blood is on our hands and our souls.  Lives hang in the balance....real lives of real people.  We can't unbreak it....we own it until we don't need to or we simply can't sanely do it.  We always will have shame though where Iraq is concerned.  That's what happens when you lie, cheat, and steal....

    Parent
    But you're argument (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 10:29:09 AM EST
    was that we would have stayed the course under McCain.  We're also staying the course under Obama.

    I know that we broke it, we bought it.  However, Obama lied about what we could do.  He said that we would leave, knowing full well we'd stay.  At least McCain was honest.

    So when will it be easy to get out?  The twelfth of never, that's when.

    Parent

    Pulling back but being able to (none / 0) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 12:02:59 PM EST
    reposition when civil war breaks out is not staying the course.  You should see how different every dynamic in motion is with a mission change like that.  Obama feel like Obama has lied about plenty but he hasn't lied about this. He said we would leave responsibly and this is what leaving responsibly looks like.  I agree with you on many issues but I cannot and will not whine about Obama containing civil war or call him a liar for doing it if he can.  Those are people's lives.....not just ideology.

    Parent
    How IS that Iraq thing going? (none / 0) (#105)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:59:33 PM EST
    Last I heard it was still a raging disaster. We moved everyone from Iraq to Afghanistan so that we can make an even bigger mess.

    Parent
    I know you're on a roll man (none / 0) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 08:02:44 PM EST
    And I hate messing up a roll, but it isn't going to be anything but a disaster as far as Iraq is concerned.  We sealed that fate in that first year of cannibalizing the place.  We aren't alone in Afghanistan though.  Islamic fundy terrorism is not just our problem.  We got rid of the Bush administration.  I have not been happy with keeping any of those in charge under him though in charge as Obama has done.  That aside, most of the NATO countries will not sell their souls....they didn't trust the Bushies and that is why so many of their troops could not even fight with us.  They could provide infrastructure support but they could not fight, and now they are showing up to fight with us if we snap out of stoopid.  In my opinion they have led us by the nose out of a lot of stoopid, but it's happening and France is showing up now.....TO FIGHT!  It isn't the same game in my opinion by a long shot.

    Parent
    The news hasn't been (none / 0) (#133)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 08:24:46 PM EST
    too optimistic. Since you have the military moniker in front of your name I'm hoping you're seeing something I'm not. I'd hate to think we are keeping families apart over and over again for no good reason(other than we are too stubborn to admit we made a mistake). I have a next door neighbor whose kid has gone to Iraq twice and will be on his way to Afghanistan. The whole entire mess is taking its toll not just on members but on their families who are left behind for what seems to be longer and longer periods of time.

    I keep hoping Obama isn't doing with Afghanistan what Cheney may have assumed he was doing with Iraq(getting some sort of warped do over to correct previous policy errors).

    Parent

    We are pulling out of Iraq ahead of schedule (none / 0) (#137)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 09:07:11 PM EST
    I don't know when it is going to look good there, probably never.  I'll be very honest with you.  I don't get info from my spouse.  He knows I blog, he tells me nothing and makes time out signs behind my head when I ask hard questions of others in his presence, he is half joking and half not :)  I still ask though and people still are very free with their opinions and their experiences inspite of spouse putting horns on the back of my head with his fingers when I can't see him :)  I have a mixed bag of perceptions of how things are going in Afghanistan right now.  Some think it isn't going well and Bush lost the situation for us long long ago, some think it is going very well considering what Bush left us with and that the situation can only improve due to diplomacy and the enlarging group effort showing up to take on islamic terrorism and what empowers it to the point it endangers America and Europe.  This is an ugly fight.  I don't know how I ended up bonded to someone who decided long long ago that if his country ever needed him for such a fight he'd gladly do it. I don't know where we will be if we don't address the environment that extremism creates in Afghanistan.  My crystal ball has never worked worth spit.  What I can tell you is that in my lifetime I have had to show up for the real fight a couple of times and I'm grateful for those who can fight this fight because I'm not one of those.  I'm as close to this thing as my soul can get without becoming devastated I think.  If something immediately endangered my children my ability to fight would be changed up a lot, but if it isn't..........I want to employ other methods.....none of which would do much in this situation

    Parent
    I know where you are coming from (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 11:42:00 PM EST
    I spent 12 years in and hubby spent 10 in. When the economy first started going south, he talked about going back in. I'm not ashamed to say I was not a happy camper and lobbied heavily against it.
    Our foreign policy has been a disaster imo and I really haven't seen us veer far to change my opinion of it.

    I'm not sure we can win a fight against extremism militarily, not over the long haul(It certainly hasn't worked out for anyone else). One of the few things Obama has done that I did agree with is provide competition to groups like Hamas, who win support for their cause by building hospitals and schools and then preaching extremism to a grateful public. I was happy to see us provide money to Abbas in Palestine. I think humanitarian aid that isn't restricted to guns and bombs could help.

    I'll say a prayer for you and your hubby. I truly wish I believed that the leadership had sufficient appreciation for people like you and your husband who day after day sacrifice(and yes spouses do sacrifice) with the belief that the endgame is better as a result of their sacrifice. More than bombs and weapons the lives of men and women who see themselves as part of something more important than themselves are a resource that we should not be squandering. If the endgame is just the status quo I'd rather them be here making our country a better place then in some foreign country accomplishing the staus quo.

    ((((Cyberhugs)))))

    Parent

    Which is worse politically: (5.00 / 13) (#54)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:58:42 PM EST
    the appearance of "giving up" on the public option, or the fallout from the growing suspicion out here in the real world that Obama never wanted to end up with any option in which the government was involved beyond making sure huge quantities of cash would be funneled to the insurance industry, thus priming the pump for future campaign coffers?

    I say Obama needs the distraction of being mildly chastised in the media for "giving up" on the public option; it helps drown out the chatter from the left of the left about the huge bonanza coming the insurance companies' way.

    I don't think he's finished in the back rooms yet, either.  

    We'll see what the House progressives are made of, but I'm thinking that Obama leaving them out in the cold to do it without his help is meant to be a preview of how much help they will get from him at re-election time if they choose to continue on this path.

    I'm really not one of those Hillary (5.00 / 12) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:10:00 PM EST
    wouldn't have done this to us people till now.  But I don't think Clinton would have done this to us. She would have been far too excited and busy giving the missing part of Rahm's finger to the Newt and friends crowd.  It really chaps my hide.  This really matters to me, I'm spending all my free time just to stay abreast.  If Obama wants to live as an Independent then run as one you blankety blank blank blank!  And to everyone who shouted down any hard questions asked the precious one, thanks a lot but I won't be returning the favor since when I flush my brain I'm flushing you with me!  If he had earned our support though as my grandfather taught me....perhaps it would have some worth to him.

    She had experience on this issue (5.00 / 14) (#67)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:22:40 PM EST
    Heck, she even stomached Newt Gingrich so she would have been ahead of the curve on GOP complaints against reforming the system. It was absolutely foolhardy to believe that someone who used Harry and Louise ads and believed that a universally mandated system would have meant asking "poor people to choose between rent and health care" person would go to the mat for universal care.

    I really wished I was wrong but it may be that we have squandered our chance to actually reform a system that has twice the cost and less efficacy then many of our brethren in the developed world, even with the facts on our side to reform the system. It's a gosh darn shame.

    Parent

    And guess what? (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 09:13:39 PM EST
    That same person is now trying to get a mandate without a public option, which means... forcing low-income people to choose between rent and health care, with no option to choose rent.  It really takes your breath away.

    Parent
    This was one outcome I didn't see coming (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:03:53 PM EST
    mandates with no public option (from a "Dem" that is). And it's not just low income that are going to get hit hard and have to make those decisions.

    Parent
    Yup ... (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:34:10 PM EST
    but my only hope is that Dems will see that public support gained through reform will be more valuable than the money.

    If they fully believed this we'd have Single Payer.  But if enough even partially believe it, we might still get something that doesn't totally suck.

    As I've said previously, I don't buy the "Obama bungled health care" argument, because he didn't bungle his deals with big pharma, etc.. The argument Hampsher makes above, and others have made for months, makes more sense. It's the only argument which makes all the pieces fit.

    Most of this battle was lost before it was even fought.

    But I still have a little bit of hope for the skirmish we're left with.

    It's too late for this year. (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by dk on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:38:21 PM EST
    All of the bills out of committee, whether in the House or the Senate, were shams.  

    But progressives could try again next year.

    Parent

    Greenwald (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:36:45 PM EST
    is quite good today:

    Why the health care debate is so important regardless of one's view of the "public option"

    Link to goodness

    I made this ... (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:52:33 PM EST
    point several times today:

    If those progressive House members actually adhere to their pledge, they can and will block any health care bill that lacks a public option.  They can actually thwart industry demands and the dictate of Beltway leaders; can empower a new faction in Washington (themselves) beholden to different interests (ordinary citizens)

    HCR is the best chance progressives have had to gain such power in years (decades?).

    This is all dependent on congressional progressives sticking to their guns. And they don't even need to be brave to do it. They merely need to exercise some "enlightened self interest."

    Parent

    True. (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by dk on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:57:01 PM EST
    Though none of the options on the table this year amount to real reform.  But if they block a bill this year, they could use the momentum to get a good bill through next year.

    Parent
    As they draw closer and closer to the mid (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by tigercourse on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:10:17 PM EST
    term elections, the Democrats desire to wrestle with anything substantive will get less and less.

    Parent
    It ought to be (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:25:16 PM EST
    the other way around. By 2010 they need to have a win in their column or a reason for people to put them back into office(It certainly doesn't appear the stimulus bill is going to be a reason).

    Parent
    I agree with you there. Logically, they should (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by tigercourse on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:40:58 PM EST
    be looking for a win. But this is the Democrats we are talking about. They'll be content to try to avoid a loss.

    Parent
    Glenn is basically saying the same thing as (5.00 / 7) (#91)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:10:48 PM EST
    The attempt to attract GOP support was the pretext which Democrats used to compromise continuously and water down the bill.  But -- given the impossibility of achieving that goal -- isn't it fairly obvious that a desire for GOP support wasn't really the reason the Democrats were constantly watering down their own bill?  Given the White House's central role in negotiating a secret deal with the pharmaceutical industry, its betrayal of
    as Jane Hamsher at FDL.

    Obama's clear promise to conduct negotiations out in the open (on C-SPAN no less), Rahm's protection of Blue Dogs and accompanying attacks on progressives, and the complete lack of any pressure exerted on allegedly obstructionists "centrists," it seems rather clear that the bill has been watered down, and the "public option" jettisoned, because that's the bill they want -- this was the plan all along.

    The Obama White House isn't sitting impotently by while Democratic Senators shove a bad bill down its throat.  This is the bill because this is the bill which Democratic leaders are happy to have.  It's the bill they believe in.  As important, by giving the insurance and pharmaceutical industries most everything they want, it ensures that the GOP doesn't become the repository for the largesse of those industries (and, converesly, that the Democratic Party retains that status).



    Parent
    I believe this 100% (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:02:33 PM EST
    There's going to be no backroom whoop-a** conference session where Obama gets them to put a public option in he bill. He's getting what he wants. He lImited what he wanted by what he thought was easily achievable without ruffling many feathers, and is only surprised the right was not appeased and the left won't be satisfied with his assessment if what was do-able.  

    Parent
    What he wanted was corporate money (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:40:53 PM EST
    not given to republicans. The rest is fluff, so not worth much effort. I wonder, is Obama as big a corporate whore as Bush? His actions say he's giving Bush a run for his money.

    Parent
    My what theatre! (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by hookfan on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:01:23 PM EST
    They really put on a show, but it's really all about corporate money, just like the bank bailouts. Surprise! Surprise! my vote is getting shoved so deeply in mud from being under the bus, I doubt I'm going to find it for 2010. . .or 2012.

    It's why I consider OpenSecrets.org (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by shoephone on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:52:40 PM EST
    required reading.

    $$$$$...

    Parent

    The logic was evident (5.00 / 10) (#123)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:23:39 PM EST
    long before Rahm's appointment.  The logic was evident in the campaign, when the Dems went with the candidate who got almost four times as much -- more than two million bucks -- from big pharma alone (I'm still trying to find the data on the big insurance companies' bucks, but the ratio was similar, I recall) than did the other candidate.  

    This is the logical result -- the result for which the Dems broke their own rules, all to put big money back in the White House again.    

    Excuse Me (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:26:17 PM EST
    Who is president? Rahm or Obama?

    I'm I to believe that that Rahm is a rogue operator acting against Obama's wishes?

    No suprise. (3.16 / 6) (#16)
    by AX10 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:27:18 PM EST
    More and more it is looking like
    a coup occured in the 2008 primary.
    Obama was the choice of the establishment.
    Obama will not re-regulate the banks.
    Obama will not commit to a public option.
    Obama will not reconsider our trade agreements.
    Obama WILL bailout the banks that caused
    the damage to our economy though.

    Obama is consigning himself to
    one-term wonderdom.

    As for Teddy K, his blueblood ego
    is getting the way too often.
    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/8/19/12127/8372

    "Blueblood"? (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:45:59 PM EST
    HAHAHAHAHAH! <wheeze>  That's really funny!  How old are you?

    Also, I think you missed a few months worth of news.  Ted Kennedy is dying of brain cancer.

    Parent

    Well well (none / 0) (#8)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:19:09 PM EST
    "lt's beyond my control," he would say.

    He was on the verge of becoming a laughing stock.  At which point, another friend of mine, a woman decided to speak to him seriously. She explained to him that his name was in danger of being ludicrously associated with this phrase for the rest of his life.

    I feel somewhat compelled to keep posting this.  For those who want to know, it is from the Christopher Hampton script for Dangerous Liaisons.

    In the book the more literal translation from French is: "It's out of my hands."

    But now I'll add something I haven't already said.  Just to infuriate people more.  You betchah.  You know it.  If the house and the senate did all the heavy lifting and by some miracle it all worked, guess who will take all the credit?


    "Our hands are tied" (5.00 / 8) (#11)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 02:21:29 PM EST
    was something we heard from administrators on my campus so often that we declared it the new campus motto.  Translated it into Latin and photoshopped it on the campus seal, too.  Hmmm, time for yet another presidential seal?

    Parent
    Dems across the board to blame... (none / 0) (#35)
    by BigElephant on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:18:01 PM EST
    While the weight of this failure will rest on Obama's shoulders, Democrats and progressives across the country dropped the ball.  I've never seen a more lethargic bunch on such an important issue before.

    Of course you tend to get one of two responses from progressives: "Yeah it's important, but I trust congress to get this taken care of" (reading between the lines) or (this is the TalkLeft marginally Obama supporters) "I'm not doing anything, Obama must do this completely by himself."  

    At the end, while the attitudes are completely different, it's the same result, fail.  

    On top of that health care reform is generally a loser issue.  The only time it was really talked about it up to this was the Democratic primaries where they argued over trivial points that only a modest few cared about.  The Republican primaries and the general election heard nary a peep about health care reform.  

    The moral for Dems should be that if you care about issue either generate tons of support for it, or do it so quickly and swiftly that there is no opposition.  In this case we did neither.  

    I don't see (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by eric on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:39:57 PM EST
    any need to "generate support".  The Democrats generated support enough to get elected, and the next election isn't until 2010.  Just pass the legislation that you feel is right.

    Why the need to go out and argue about this on tv and at town halls?

    If it is good legislation, then vote for it.  If it is good, the people will like you for it.  If it sucks, well then they may dump you.  That's the way it goes.

    This PR effort is stupid and counterproductive.

    Parent

    Agreed... (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by BigElephant on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:50:39 PM EST
    That was basically my second option (do it swiftly).  If you meander talking about how you're just going to do it and no one can stop you, eventually you're going to get people riled up.  Either do it quickly, OR get enough support that you can do it w/o a fight.

    Remember that a large number of the people that wanted to do the town halls were Dems.  This is the wrong issue to try to get support on.

    You play the "get support" card with things like Net Neutrality, IMO.  Not with health care reform.

    Parent

    It is baffling (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by eric on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 03:58:06 PM EST
    really.  The wackos that are attacking the town hall meetings wouldn't even have an arena to get any attention.  Yet, the Democrats give it to them.  WHY?  Why hold a meeting that you know is going to be a stage for your opponents to speak?

    Is it just do-gooder naivete?  Why the town halls?

    If this inflammatory crap weren't in the media, the ignorant American public wouldn't even have Health Care Reform on their radar.

    Parent

    It's only baffling if (5.00 / 6) (#69)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:28:23 PM EST
    you believe that Obama ever really made health care a priority or even understood the need for it.

    Btw, sorry to see that the gods have wreaked vengeance for signing Favre on your lovely Twin Cities.  Seriously, I hope that you and yours were not hit by the tornado and terrible storm.  So far, no injuries, I hear -- and I hope it stays that way.  

    And I guess the football gods are not fans of us all, as the mighty wind is headed across the Mighty Muddy now.

    Parent

    Just damage (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by eric on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:38:42 PM EST
    nobody hurt.  We are keeping Favre, too.  :)

    Parent
    Not everyone attacking at a town hall is a whacko (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:38:32 PM EST
    as it stands the people selling the plan seem to be very vague and Americans have a right to ask questions about 1000 pages worth of bill and whether it actually addresses the root of health care problems(cost).

    Parent
    Baucus' chief of staff, Jon Selib, (5.00 / 10) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:50:44 PM EST
    holding a listening session for Baucus who could not attend, met one of those Americans asking questions:

    Discussing why a single-payer system of health insurance wasn't viable, Selib made reference to the more than 150 million Americans who are covered by some sort of employer-provided health care.

    "A lot of people like that," Selib said.

    When the time came for questions, McArthur stood up and asked a simple question. Looking across a standing-room-only crowd of about 275, he asked how many were happy with their employer-based health insurance.

    Fewer than 10 people raised their hands.

    "The number is bogus," McArthur said. "It's not working for 95 percent of us."    link



    Parent
    Thanks for posting this (5.00 / 4) (#88)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:01:54 PM EST
    They should follow that question up with how people feel about Medicare. Make it a 2 parter and then do some viral video to Congress.

    Parent
    That number is kinda deceptive though (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:21:55 PM EST
    The numbers don't support the statement that people aren't satisfied with the insurance they have.

    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMp0906392v1

    Note the two polls that address that question.

    Now, the number who are going without insurance has increased as has the number of people who have had to file for bankruptcy even with insurance(strong arguments for why the system needs to be reformed.)

    I just don't want to see people use arguments for single payer that are easily refuted and aren't the full picture.

    Parent

    I looked at the CNN poll (5.00 / 6) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:50:26 PM EST
    though that they pulled the numbers off of for those who were happy with their insurance and only 58% of those people were privately insured.  Since it seems that medicare and medicaid coverage is also considered along with many other forms of coverage to be insured...it is misleading to attempt to say a vast majority of those privately insured are satisfied with their coverage.  I want to see a poll of those who are only currently privately insured.

    Parent
    I wouldn't mind seeing a poll (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:21:12 PM EST
    with that info either. That being said I think that perception is part of the problem with this fight.

    I think that the strength of an argument for health care rests with a) allowing people to believe they will be offered choice and b) making the case that government run care would be more cost effective.

    I live in a fairly red area though so I tend to go with arguments I know that I can support on a factual basis rather than the ones I wish I could.

    Parent

    A Helena paper reported that incident (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:55:05 PM EST
    I have no reason to think that the account was untrue. It was the picture expressed by the people at the town hall meeting.

    I do know that all employer insurance is not equal and many are reducing the amount of their participation as well as the extent of coverage. In areas where jobs are scare, it is possible that employees are offered less in benefits than in more populous regions.

     

    Parent

    The answer will vary (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 06:25:42 PM EST
    which is why I don't use it as my argument.

    I would rather use the per capita information for how much we spend on health care and life expectancy rates of other countries.

    I also used the "death panels" ruse to my advantage. Private industry has their own brand of death panel. They make their money off hoping that people won't appeal their decision or they can run out the clock.

    The "you'll have to wait in line for care" line is easy too. Most people don't get same day appointments as it stands.

    Parent

    Too bad that's not on YouTube (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by shoephone on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:04:16 PM EST
    Town Halls, another miscalculation (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 08:39:34 PM EST
    By our team.  

    Parent
    Obama will place the blame elsewhere (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:29:12 PM EST
    I can guarantee it, he will NOT accept the blame for any failure in HCR.  Heads will roll, but they won't be his.

    Parent
    This campaign has already begun (5.00 / 6) (#83)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:53:58 PM EST
    See the ezra klein posts.

    But there's a price for that too.  

    the subtext of "Not my fault" is, regrettably, "i'm impotent."

    a failure to take responsibility will negatively impact his ability to get anything done more than people realize.


    Parent

    Yup, once trust is lost, (none / 0) (#145)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:32:59 PM EST
    It is very hard to get it back.  You are so right, this will effect so many other things that Obama wants to get done.  I am sure that he knows that.  Perhaps that will cause him to pull this out in the end.

    Parent
    Sure enough (none / 0) (#156)
    by The Last Whimzy on Thu Aug 20, 2009 at 12:58:24 PM EST
    But what I've been trying to get at for the last few days is that if Obama allowed himself to be perceived as someone who tried and failed, then at least the trust would remain intact.


    Parent
    Rahm already says that the Republicans did it (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:52:13 PM EST
    He just did in the last link BTD provided about him.  Die crazy Republican party die....but I hope I don't die first :)

    Parent
    Will be a "staffer's" fault? (none / 0) (#85)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 04:57:32 PM EST
    It's not a done deal. (none / 0) (#127)
    by prittfumes on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:40:56 PM EST
    I watch a variety of offbeat politically oriented TV programs. The first time I saw Obama was when I watched a Saturday Rainbow Push broadcast on a Saturday from Rev. James Meeks' Church in Chicago. Jesse Jackson was touting Obama that day as the "next senator from Illinois". Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought Obama would now be residing at 1600.

    Don't count him out on HRC (or anything else) just yet.

    Parent

    *did it again! (none / 0) (#128)
    by prittfumes on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 07:41:39 PM EST
    "HCR"

    Parent
    You know what? (5.00 / 10) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:47:17 PM EST
    I would be glad to advocate for a plan if there was one. All we got was a bunch of hodge podge about there is a public option/there isnt a public option. You tell me how you advocate for fairy dust?

    Parent
    Now now (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:53:02 PM EST
    There IS a plan. It just isn't a plan that benefits the masses. It's meant to help boost the profits of companies like Wellpoint and Glaxo.

    Many of us get to be the captives that get our pockets picked to pay for a small number of folks who will see health insurance all the way up until the GOP figures out how to gut it and use the money to pay for bright shiny defense projects.

    Parent

    That's the BIGGEST problem, (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 10:35:01 PM EST
    imo, Obama can't articulate what the plan is.  The public can't get behind it because they don't know what it is.  

    It will be difficult for Obama or Rahm to blame that on republicans, although he'll do his best.  

    Parent

    Everyone Must See This Video Of Hannity On Reform (none / 0) (#89)
    by kevsters on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:09:59 PM EST
    Hannity would rather see 15 million people suffer than see health care reform pass.

    Make this video viral!!!

    http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2608

    Define (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by cawaltz on Wed Aug 19, 2009 at 05:27:24 PM EST
    health reform? Frankly, I'd rather wait then have a weak bill that would be easily decimated the first time a Republican is placed in office myself.

    As it stands the public option would be largely limited to low income individuals. How long do you figure it would take the GOP to gut it once they gained control?

    Parent