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Springtime For Hitler

Limbaugh: "Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate"

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    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:32:00 PM EST
    "Hitler said he didn't need to meet with his cabinet."

    Sounds like a supporter of the unitary executive theory to me!

    Heh (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:49:04 PM EST
    I post on a "bipartisan" blog and I continually ask conservatives why they didn't complain when Bush was doing some of these same things. Crickets is about all you hear or they ignore you.

    Parent
    You get the same thing here (2.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:51:08 PM EST
    except it's the opposite side.

    Nature of the beast,

    Parent

    Acutally (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:01:42 PM EST
    there are plenty people here who ream Obama for his Bush like behavior. You apparently are confusing Talkleft with one of the other sites that does what you are talking about.

    Parent
    Actually I have been here for over 6 years (2.00 / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:47:30 PM EST
    so I have a pretty good idea who the players are.. and yes, there are some Hillary and Kucinich fans who zap Obama but they always basically support the main agenda just as many Paul supporters will do the same on the Repub side.. We can argue who does this the most if you like but I see it as a waste of time since my point was that both sides do it.

    Parent
    we agree on policy (5.00 / 0) (#114)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:28:13 PM EST
    and criticize our leaders when they fail to live up to the ideal.

    That is the nature of OUR beast.

    The nature of your beast is to shut up and stay in line.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 10:56:24 PM EST
    Since I am not a Repub I don't know which beast I have... but I see just as many Repubs beating up other Repubs as you see Demos...

    Or perhaps you have never heard of Colin Powell..

    Parent

    You mean they guy (none / 0) (#152)
    by coigue on Mon Aug 10, 2009 at 09:43:30 AM EST
    who sold the Iraq war to the UN...ya, I've heard of him. He came to Jesus waaaaayyy late in the game.

    Parent
    You've been doing it (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:03:40 PM EST
    in every comment since he won the primaries.

    Or do I exaggerate?

    Parent

    Oh (1.00 / 0) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:19:51 PM EST
    goody it's my troll!!! Yeah, I know if you ever say anything critical of "the one" the messiah you must hate everything he does. Right?

    Parent
    I thought you were my troll (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:21:51 PM EST
    no fair!

    Get over the primaries, please, for your own well-being.

    Parent

    You're the one (5.00 / 0) (#80)
    by sallywally on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:35:00 PM EST
    who brought up the primaries. You get over them, instead of using them as a smoke screen for refusing to look at some (not all) of what the Obama admin. has chosen to do.

    Parent
    Good grief. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:24:16 PM EST
    You're the one that needs to get over the primaries apparently. I hardly ever mention them but you do constantly. Now quit blog stalking me. You're not going to convince me that Obama is the messiah so dont waste your time.

    Parent
    There's no messiah (5.00 / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:26:48 PM EST
    in the political realm or the spirtual realm.

    And if you're being "stalked" I have no doubt that that's a first for you.

    Parent

    Ouch .... and ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:39:58 PM EST
    LOL!

    Parent
    Your troll?? (2.00 / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:48:00 PM EST
    jondee! Have you been running 'round on me?

    Parent
    Nature of YOUR beast. (none / 0) (#41)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:39:25 PM EST
    Democrats, OTOH, are masters of the circular firing squad.

    Think about it...you know this.

    Parent

    Whoa... (none / 0) (#85)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:45:27 PM EST
    QED, above.

    Parent
    the original (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:32:21 PM EST
    The other day (none / 0) (#81)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:35:46 PM EST
    you responded to a poster who linked to something Dick morris had said. You told that poster: 'Who cares what Dick Morris says?'. I didn't post so but I agreed with your sentiment.

    So now I ask: Who cares what Limbaugh says?

    Parent

    I do....mostly (none / 0) (#86)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:46:35 PM EST
    because nutjobs are going around to town hall meetings (meant to educate) and parroting Limbaugh.

    Parent
    So because (none / 0) (#89)
    by ChiTownMike on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:55:51 PM EST
    NUTJOBS parrot LIMBUGH then the whole is greater than the sum of its parts?

    Parent
    It's easier to stop change (none / 0) (#90)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:08:20 PM EST
    than to make change....which is why yelling and screaming "nazi" whenever someone tried to fully explain the bill can work.

    But is that really what we want to encourage in our society?

    Parent

    Why do you think change is always good? (2.00 / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:50:22 PM EST
    did I say that? (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:57:07 PM EST
    Yes. yes you did. (1.00 / 1) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 10:57:21 PM EST
    No, no he/she didn't (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by cal1942 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:20:24 AM EST
    Comprehension PPJ, comprehension

    Parent
    Intent and understanding and context (1.00 / 1) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 07:08:28 AM EST
    are your friends.

    Parent
    I thought town hall meetings were (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:49:47 PM EST
     to let the citizen tell their Representatives what they wanted.... not be "educated."

    There I go thinking this is a constitutional republic again...

    Parent

    no. they were educational events (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:59:19 PM EST
    that's why they have panelists. The bill is 1200 pages long, and it needs to be explained to the constituents.

    Repubs are certainly welcome to have their own panels, of course. But birthers shouting "socialist" do nothing to further the discussion.

    Parent

    So the Demo (2.00 / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 11:01:46 PM EST
    Congressman now speaks only to Demos??? They represent only Demos??

    Who knew?? I thought my Demo represented me. (Badly, but he still does,)

    Whatever happened to the Big Tent Democrats??

    Town Hall meetings are for the voters to tell the Representatives what the voters want, not to be "educated" by the Reps.... That is the job of the voter..

    Parent

    You should know all about this (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by cal1942 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:22:31 AM EST
    PPJ.  Your boy W staged every one of his "townhalls"

    Parent
    I thought we were speaking (none / 0) (#150)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:05:36 PM EST
    of Congress Critters, but if you insist..

    Two Muslim women at Barack Obama's rally in Detroit on Monday were barred from sitting behind the podium by campaign volunteers seeking to prevent the women's headscarves from appearing in photographs or on television with the candidate.

    Link

    Parent

    And I suppose (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by cal1942 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:33:08 AM EST
    that by your frame a Rep can't explain the details of a given bill in that forum.

    If the Rep isn't allowed to explain to a questioner that the bill doesn't require the elderly on Medicare be counseled to end their lives then why have the townhall.

    If the townhall is intended only to hear demands why not just send staffers to take notes.

    Parent

    No that's not right. (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 07:20:33 AM EST
    Why not just a staffer? Because it is the Reps job.

    Sure. The Rep can try to explain, but first the Rep is going to have to listen to the screaming and develop some type of believable position with the voters.

    Given the deep and obvious divide between the Rep and he voters it may take a while. Some may lose elections and be replaced. (That's what happens in a Constitutional Republic.)

    The facts are that our elected Reps have positioned themselves as royalty with their many perks, gold plated medical care, gold plated retirement and upper middle class salary. Resentment has been building for years. The health care "plan" has torched it off.

    Parent

    See... (none / 0) (#120)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:56:19 PM EST
    I told yas Carlin was right about golf.

    Parent
    Listen to the entire clip (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by JL on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:47:20 PM EST
    As further "evidence" Limbaugh submits that Hitler was called "the decider."  I wonder who Rush is really calling Hitler.

    Must be a concerted effort (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:58:37 PM EST
    There was a big sandwich-board sign with pictures of Obama with a Hitler mustache, and people handing out flyers about something at the Metro stop when I left work.  I had my headphones on and ignored them as I walked by, but I sooooo desperately wanted to go up to them and tell them that facism is a right-wing ideology, so they must be upset that he is too much like Bush.  But I didn't.

    godwin's law (5.00 / 0) (#142)
    by The Last Whimzy on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 07:50:40 AM EST
    if we look honestly into our own hearts, i bet none of us can say we haven't been tempted.

    and yes, this sort of thing is only made all the more infuriating within the context of the last 8 years and an executive who really did govern by dictate.  the decider and all that.

    phhhhtttttttppppp.

    OMG (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:29:43 PM EST
    why didnt I see it before?

    Nazis (none / 0) (#4)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:33:04 PM EST
    as environmentalists.  Heh.

    and animal rights (none / 0) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:34:57 PM EST
    advocates.

    I never noticed it before but Rusbo sort of looks like Himmler.

    Himmler was the fat one, right?


    Parent

    Herman Goering was the fat one... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:40:05 PM EST
    ...Himmler was the little guy with glasses.

    Parent
    ah (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:57:55 PM EST
    Goering was the one who liked drugs and boys.

    yes that one

    Parent

    He was a morphine addict (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:01:03 PM EST
    But I dunno about the boys. (You're probably thinking of Ernst Röhm).

    Parent
    according to my (2.00 / 1) (#124)
    by JamesTX on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 10:11:17 PM EST
    History Channel, Hitler's personality was, like Kennedy's, a pure pharmaceutical construction. That is, his public life and appearances were limited and coordinated around the few minutes of rushing ecstasy that followed regular amphetamine injections. Aside from those precious moments, he was either knocked out like Michael Jackson or essentially unable to get out of bed. The Kennedy era was probably about the last time a prez could live like that, before the Nixonian WOD was born and it could no longer be concealed under the heading of "medical treatment". That is why it is so difficult to understand the behavior of early 20th century leaders, because so many of them were just syringes. It is a sort of presentist bias to look at them as people of a type that most any of us could understand.

    Parent
    hermann (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:11:06 PM EST
    this one.  I think the history channel (or the Hitler Channel as I like to call it) said he liked boys.  but I may be confusing my Nazis.

    if rush had hair he would be a ringer.


    Parent

    or (none / 0) (#129)
    by ding7777 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:14:51 AM EST
    Joseph Goebbels

    Parent
    IOIYAN (none / 0) (#42)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:40:29 PM EST
    It's OK if you are a NAZI??? Did Germany have it's own C Street club?

    Parent
    more that one I think (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:54:16 PM EST
    are you familar with Champaign or are you talking about the DC "C Street club"?


    Parent
    "The Family" in DC (none / 0) (#53)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:55:50 PM EST
    What is Champaign?

    Parent
    ah (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:57:17 PM EST
    Champaign IL (where I sit) has a gay bar called C Street or Chester Street which made the whole DC C Street thing funnier to me.

    Parent
    How do you pronounce "Urbana"? (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:58:47 PM EST
    or (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:03:46 PM EST
    you can go with the hip version

    ChamBana

    Parent

    like (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:00:45 PM EST
    a mash up of Urban and Cabana

    Urbana

    Parent

    Rhymes with Havana (none / 0) (#61)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:00:59 PM EST
    Speaking of the C Street Club, (none / 0) (#56)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:58:18 PM EST
    I hope everyone's been reading Doonsebury this week...

    Monday

    Tuesday

    Wednesday

    Thursday

    It's classic Trudeau.

    Parent

    IMO, the NYT is losing money (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:02:54 PM EST
    precisely because it doesn't include Doonesbury and/or advice columns.

    Parent
    a friend once said of the NYT (none / 0) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:04:35 PM EST
    sunday edition.

    why in hell would I buy a 10 pound newspaper without comics?

    Parent

    My reasons: "modern love," wedding of (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:07:32 PM EST
    the week and follow up on some of the couples, oh, and the arts section--my fave.

    Parent
    the Doonesbury (none / 0) (#71)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:17:16 PM EST
    probably almost writes itself....lol!

    Parent
    Picture of hermann (none / 0) (#78)
    by DFLer on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:27:54 PM EST
    does he remind you of Rush?

    link


    Parent
    And one time (none / 0) (#133)
    by cal1942 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:50:28 AM EST
    chicken rangler.

    Parent
    Have you read "The Zookeeper's Wife"? (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:55:32 PM EST
    Until I read it recently, I was not aware one of Hitler's closest associates (can't remember which) was trying to cull non-native animals from Germany and replace with species which originated there but not longer existed there.  Fascinating portion of the book.

    Parent
    Surely (none / 0) (#7)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:39:30 PM EST
    this cannot be your first experience with the "Hitler was a vegetarian" schtick.  The attempt to paint Hitler as a man of the left never gets old.

    PS: Yes, I said "schtick." Suck on that, Adolf!

    Parent

    Liberal Fascism (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:41:20 PM EST
    There are people who seriously believe (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:53:33 PM EST
    that cr@p. The same kinds of people who lied about Reconstruction for 100 years.

    Parent
    Suck on that Schtick (none / 0) (#13)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:43:17 PM EST
    Adolph??!!

    Parent
    However you spell it (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:46:00 PM EST
    One of my Swedish friends has the letter O with 2 dots over it in his name.  I called it an "umlaut," and he said "Just call it two dots.  You won the war!"

    Parent
    It wasn't meant to be a spelling (none / 0) (#18)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:51:42 PM EST
    correction. I didn't even notice that we spelled it differently. I was just trying to put a finer point on what we wanted Adolf to suck on!

    Parent
    It's actually (none / 0) (#134)
    by cal1942 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:53:24 AM EST
    spelled Adolf.

    Steve M was right.

    Parent

    "Wars have consequences." (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:02:15 PM EST
    Some of them spelling-related! (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:42:58 PM EST
    As I like to point out, if things had gone differently for Washington at the Battle of Long Island, we'd all be speaking English today.

    Parent
    Weak! (none / 0) (#45)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:43:41 PM EST
    LOL! (none / 0) (#43)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:41:28 PM EST
    Nazis are liberals (none / 0) (#6)
    by Lora on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:39:12 PM EST
    More Orwellian logic.  Who could have guessed how ahead of his time ole' George was?  He was off by only about 16 years or so.

    Most people toss around the world (2.00 / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:53:50 PM EST
    "liberal" when what they mean is Far Left.

    Parent
    Or (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:57:22 PM EST
    When they are calling themselves social liberals but actually far right.

    Parent
    For those who don't know........... (2.00 / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:58:07 PM EST
    squeaky's snark is about me...

    Hey squeaky! How many on the far right are for gay rights (including marriage),minority rights, women rights, pro choice, National Health Care (single payer)???

    And I have been posting and commenting same for years and you know that to be a fact.

    I am pro national defense and anti-illegal aliens so if that bothers you... well be bothered.

    Now if you insist I can again show your feeling towards facts..... in your own words.

    Parent

    And all for getting... (none / 0) (#102)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:11:51 PM EST
    John Law off the backs of recreational drug users if I'm not mistaken..and pro-gambling!

    There's a lot to love there:)

    Parent

    True, but (2.00 / 0) (#138)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 07:27:07 AM EST
    none of that matters to DA, Jondee and squeaky.. Because...gasp... I am a hawk on national defense...

    ;-)

    Parent

    Nobody is perfect... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 08:03:22 AM EST
    there is hope for you yet Darth Vader, I can sense the good in you:)

    Parent
    Sounds like you got your knckles rapped. (none / 0) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 07:28:34 AM EST
    could be. (none / 0) (#35)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:22:24 PM EST
    I was thinking specifically of the big communist examples. (I know there are exceptions).

    Parent
    And, the "Far Left", (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:43:43 PM EST
    or Communists, fought Hitler.  So, Liberals and Progressives are both Nazis and Communists/Socialists?

    It is quite simple: liberals are plainly evil because the local pastor says so.

    Parent

    Liberal is NOT (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by cal1942 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:55:28 AM EST
    far left.  

    Parent
    There is really little difference (3.00 / 0) (#23)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:57:04 PM EST
    between the way far left and the far right, IMO.

    Parent
    I agree in that both are (2.00 / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:52:53 PM EST
    extreme in their different views.

    Parent
    How far? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Lora on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:02:12 PM EST
    go far enough (none / 0) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:09:20 PM EST
    in either direction and you will find Nazis

    Parent
    I would say that there (none / 0) (#32)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:11:27 PM EST
    is a very big difference.  While one might say that both the Far Left and the Far Right both have an authoritarian tendency, and when they gain power they do tend to gravitate toward dictatorship, the similarities stop there.  Communists and Nazis do not have much in common, as was established in WWII.

    Parent
    I disagree. (none / 0) (#33)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:17:09 PM EST
    Just because they fought each other does not mean that they are dissimilar.

    Totalitarian...check
    Racist...check
    anti-gay....check
    anti-Jew....check

    Parent

    exactly (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:19:09 PM EST
    just because they were enemies in the war doesnt mean they had nothing in common.  particularly if you are talking about Stalin.  he just didnt want to share power.

    like I said, go far enough in either direction . . .

    Parent

    Stalin (none / 0) (#37)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:25:13 PM EST
    wasn't a leftist in my opinion.  I guess I am thinking more about economics and social policy.

    Parent
    He wasn't ... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:32:57 PM EST
    and that tired old idea that the Right and Left meet at the extremes never held much water.

    And the reason people trot out that argument is always suspect.

    Parent

    I dont know (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:46:33 PM EST
    I read The Corner, I read Kos.  I dont see much difference in approach maybe difference in policy.

    I listen the crazy christians in my home town make ridiculous sweeping generalizations about the left and I see (some) people even here (gasp) make ridiculous sweeping generalizations about religious people.

    I dont see much difference.


    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:48:21 PM EST
    Not a lot of differences, if you set aside policy.

    Parent
    IMO (none / 0) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:52:16 PM EST
    Nazi tactics are not acceptable just because you agree with the intended result or goal.

    I thought that is what we were talking about.

    Parent

    Alot of emotion (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:57:12 PM EST
    is conducive to sweeping generalizations.

    And unfortunately, 90% of the populace is primed and seemingly hungry for sweeping generalizations and rhetorical fire and brimstone by deep-seated cultural traditions; primarily the churches.

    So you're almost forced into a fight-fire-with-fire scenario.

    Parent

    Not what I was ... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:54:31 PM EST
    talking about.

    There are idiots of every political stripe.

    The idea I was talking about, and people seemed to be referring to up thread, was that Right Wing and Left Wing philosophies meet at the ideological extremes.

    There are even stupid diagrams for this stuff, showing political ideologies in a circle.

    This idea was trotted out a lot during the Cold War.  And it was a way to do, though somewhat more cleverly, what Rush is doing here:  Equate the Left with Nazis.

    Parent

    You either give up personal rights for the good (none / 0) (#69)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:13:48 PM EST
    of the people...or for the good of the country.

    How extreme you are is a reflection of how far to the left or right you go.

    Parent

    Or how extreme the historical (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:19:10 PM EST
    situation is.

    Not that many people carped about giving up their personal freedoms during WWII in this country; not enough to make much of a ripple anyway.

    Parent

    The reality in the USA, I think, (none / 0) (#77)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:27:46 PM EST
    is that most people are socialist on some issues, libertarian on others. American liberals want reproductive and gay rights, Conservatives want to restrict those rights for the "moral good" of the country.

    Conservatives want unregulated free trade (including health care)and gun rights, liberals want regulation of these things for the good of the people.

    An extreme liberal may want to ban all air travel to curb global warming (I have never met anyone like this).

    An extreme conservative example is most of the Bush administration.


    Parent

    I am not sure (none / 0) (#40)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:33:30 PM EST
    you are correct about Stalin, there

    Parent
    Was there a free market under Stalin? (none / 0) (#70)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:14:54 PM EST
    I don't think so.

    Stalin was a totalitarian leftist.

    Parent

    Is there a free market here? (none / 0) (#84)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:44:05 PM EST
    Everything here is either too big to fail, or too small to succeed.

    Parent
    no. but we are a bit socialist here. (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:48:17 PM EST
    Thank Goodness.

    Parent
    Only if you are (none / 0) (#88)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:51:37 PM EST
    referring to ownership of the means of production by the state.  Being a liberal/leftist also means a belief in Civil Liberties--it's the ACLU and all that stuff that those on the right just hate.

    A leftist that does not believe in civil liberties?  Is that really possible?   Maybe, but such a person is just an authoritarian despot....not really all that left.   Stalin and Che are considered leftists--but what a twisted definition of a leftist...

    Parent

    Generally speaking (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:24:29 PM EST
    when they talk about whether a country has a right-wing or left-wing government, they almost always focus on the extent to which the government controls/regulates the economy, the natural resources, etc.  Whether civil liberties are protected or not has very little to do with it.

    When we talk about whether you or I are to the left of the political spectrum, of course we can talk about a wider range of issues.  And you might be left on some things and center or right on other things.

    I find there's a tendency to act like "left" means liberal in ALL things, so that if there's a person we don't like - Hitler, Stalin, whoever - we can always assign them to the right because of course a true left-winger would never do __.  It's a little silly.

    Parent

    I think we are (none / 0) (#92)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:15:03 PM EST
    at the cusp of defining the difference between left and liberal. I think left is usually an economic stance. Liberal is about civil liberties. However, if anyone has actually studied this, I'd be happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

    Interesting discussion.

    Parent

    Stalin (none / 0) (#97)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:52:01 PM EST
    was a totalitarian, but no leftist.  Lenin hated him and would never have left his legacy in his hands.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:54:05 PM EST
    Someday you'll have to tell me more about Stalin's market reforms.  But it's hardly unknown for two leftists to hate each other and consider each other apostates.  See also: People's Front of Judea.

    Parent
    He was (none / 0) (#103)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:12:47 PM EST
    a totalitarian who maintained a command economy, sure.  But he was no leftist.  He was a thug.  He had none of the intellectual background or aspirations that the Bolsheviks had.

    It is interesting really.  The Soviet Union, had it not been for Stalin successful power grab, might have turned out a lot differently.  Socialism would surely have developed differently.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:19:36 PM EST
    you are a little bit guilty of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy here, but I take your point.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#115)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:33:51 PM EST
    maybe.  :)

    I did a paper on this in college.  There was a guy called Nikolai Bukharin who, had he not been purged (and killed) by Stalin, would almost surely have been a leader that would have taken Soviet Socialism in a different direction.  Bolshevism did not logically lead to Stalinism, I guess is the point.

    Parent

    Lenin wasn't exactly hugs and kisses (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:21:51 PM EST
    The original formation of the Soviet Union was brutal and undemocratic.

    Parent
    As was the original and ongoing formation (none / 0) (#106)
    by DFLer on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:32:17 PM EST
    of Czarist Russia.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:34:29 PM EST
    But as you'll probably recall, Lenin did not take over from Tsarist Russia.

    Parent
    As a good Minnesota DFLer (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:54:11 PM EST
    you may recall the party platform of the 1934 Minnesota Farmer-Labor Party:

    We declare that capitalism has failed and that immediate steps must be taken by the people to abolish capitalism in a peaceful and lawful manner, and that a new, sane, and just society must be established, a system in which all the natural resources, machinery of production, transportation, and communications shall be owned by the government and operated democratically for the benefit of all the people, and not for the benefit of the few.

    LINK

    Yes, we're a little left up here in Minnesota.


    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Steve M on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 10:11:15 PM EST
    That statement could not be any more Minnesota if it was standing next to a Dala horse.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#121)
    by eric on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:59:19 PM EST
    note, for those that seem to think far-left so somehow equivalent of the far right,  this "far-left" socialism doesn't sound very fascist.  The two are very different.

    Parent
    that is presentist (none / 0) (#125)
    by JamesTX on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 10:19:28 PM EST
    bias. They are not similar at all. Those were almost universal biases in that day. That is like saying King George III and Abraham Lincoln were similar because neither had a cell phone.

    Parent
    Too little difference between far left and right.. (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:10:01 PM EST
    where it matters...namely trampling on individual rights to achieve their respective ends.

    The respective ends differ greatly in policy, but share the main goal of achieving and maintaining power.  And if actualized, I don't think either place would be much fun to live in.  

    A true anarchist society, though equally flawed, would at least be fun:)

    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#93)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:15:48 PM EST
    I have not achieved that level of cynicism...luckily.

    Parent
    Names are just names. (none / 0) (#144)
    by Bemused on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 08:05:14 AM EST
      We have a tendency (and to a degree a need) to use one word or short labels to identify schools of thought and action but this can lead to serious misunderstanding without intent and outright distortion with intent.

      Not only, for example, are liberal and socialist not synonyms, liberalism and socialism are not monolithic constructs. One can be "liberal" and reject statist oriented economies. One can be a "socialist" and and reject notions of civil rights of individuals, the virtue of peaceful resolution of political disputes.

       It's also worth remembering that not all "communists" were/are marxists, let alone marxist-leninists or stalinists. In its original conception "communism" did not include ideas such as a dictatorship of the proletariat, a revolutionary vanguard or the need to stifle dissent by eliminating enemies of the state, etc.

      Communism once meant really just a society where wealth was collectively maintained and distributed on an egalitarian basis by the members' voluntary will. In theory it actually sounds pretty good. The problem is that systems that ignore human nature have difficulty establishing themselves through voluntary choice of the citizenry. Thus,  the need of those who put ideology above humanity began justifying the use of compulsion in often exteme fashion.

      It may be a sad reflection on humanity, but fqscism and "national socialism" are probably much easier sales than communism because such systems take into account and exploit human nature more than expect it to change.

       

    Parent

    For sure.... (none / 0) (#145)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 09:00:25 AM EST
    After reading Marx, I thought his economic ideas sounded pretty damn sweet.  Until you look at every instance that they were attempted to be put into place.

    Though the same can be said for any economic system, or system of governing...never do the closely resemble the version on paper.  They all get sullied by the human nature of the participants...the greed, gluttony, laziness, and thirst for power in our nature.  

    Facism may well be an easier sell, at least in this country, appealing to greed/market rigging and hate of the "other" in our nature, as opposed to communisms appeal to the micro-manager/central planner and hate of the "other" in our nature.

    At the end of the day I care little about the economic system and/or system of governing, whichever infringes least on my individual sovereignty works for me.

    Parent

    You toss it around (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:09:26 PM EST
    when you mean Left-of-Bush, from my experience.

    Cheering the Birchers now admitting gays dosnt make you a liberal.

    Parent

    Your experence is filtered (2.00 / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:00:25 PM EST
    through your bigoted feelings towards those who dare disagree with your far left positions..

    Parent
    The Birchers are admitting gays???? (none / 0) (#79)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:31:15 PM EST
    Wasn't he Stalin the other day? (none / 0) (#9)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:40:14 PM EST
    They really need to get it straight.

    Tomorrow he will be Saddam Hussein (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:45:23 PM EST
    Well, (none / 0) (#10)
    by bocajeff on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:40:49 PM EST
    Obama can't be Hitler because W. is. Geez...

    That's a good 'un. (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:33:24 PM EST
    Hitler: Health care for all!!!!! (none / 0) (#12)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:42:13 PM EST
    I did not know this!

    Heh. (none / 0) (#21)
    by andgarden on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:54:09 PM EST
    Actually, I think it was Bismark.

    Parent
    Yes....Health care for (none / 0) (#22)
    by coigue on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 04:56:11 PM EST
    All*

    Parent
    This does show that Rush ... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:24:19 PM EST
    and his cronies know they're being compared to Nazis and they think it's sticking.

    One of things Rush leaves out about the Nazi law about the humane killing of animals:  It also outlawed Kosher methods of slaughtering livestock.  In fact, that was undoubtedly its main purpose.

    since this is a Nazi thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 05:59:57 PM EST
    I guess this is not OT:

    John Holdren, the Science Czar of the United States, has long expressed an intense admiration -- one that bordered on hero-worship -- of a man named Harrison Brown . . .

    At first glance, there's nothing remarkable or amiss with this picture: one respected scientist giving credit to and paying tribute to another. Happens all the time. Except in this case, something is amiss. Grievously amiss. Because Harrison Brown, whatever good qualities Holdren might have seen in him, was also an unapologetic eugenicist who made horrifying recommendations for "sterilizing the feeble-minded" and other "unfit" substandard humans whom he thought should be "pruned from society." (See the quotes from Holdren on the left and Brown on the right for a small sampling of the evidence presented below.)



    Holdren is ... (none / 0) (#68)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:10:38 PM EST
    a dubious figure at best.

    His eugenicist leanings are also there in the writings he did with Paul Ehrlich. Though they're often couched in soft language.

    Parent

    Rush Limbaugh: Student of Joseph Goebels (none / 0) (#116)
    by AX10 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:36:01 PM EST
    Rush Limbaugh: Student of Joseph Goebels/Huto Radio Host is not one to talk about this.

    Speaking of (none / 0) (#117)
    by JamesTX on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:41:50 PM EST
    Hitler, I have a lot of analogies, but I usually get charged with some Godwin offense.

    Limbaugh: "Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate"

    ...sort of makes you yearn for the good ol' days of the Bush administration when rule was democratic...right?

    He sounds like he has a very bad case (none / 0) (#146)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 12:06:16 PM EST
    of cotton mouth.  What the heck is he on now?  Nancy looks like a swastika?

    Petulant child (none / 0) (#148)
    by Oceandweller on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 12:57:32 PM EST
    The only real aim this RL has to to fill his pockets. More you speak about aboutm more he is relevant. More you ignore him, and leave him in a vacuum of silence, more you remove from him his bread and butter and at the end, noone  ays attention to him.

    No one will win over the zealotness of Murdoch Fox news. Less you mention them, better they improve. Look at Coulter even her has improved by this strict regimen. Oh she still plays up to the loonies on Fox yet when it comes to acceptable tolerable MEDIAS, even her waters down her drink.
    So silence for Rush so he learns from solitude


    Something that troubles me :) (none / 0) (#149)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Where does Rush get that Obama "dictates", because Bush with his "decider" episodes actually did claim that dictating was his right.  Obama has never said anything like that or even acted in that fashion, but I get this feeling from racist America around here....if Obama is part of changing anything then he's dictating to them.  I could be wrong but to me and probably only me this seems to be about leadership on change from a lesser race more than actual dictating from one man.