home

Friday Late Afternoon Open Thread

Dollhouse premieres tonight on Fox at 9.

While my posts of late have been all Public Option All The Time, starting next week, that will be leavened with some Obama Administration cheerleading - specifically regarding foreign policy questions such as Afghanistan and Iran.

So my posts will become Centrist Hawk Central. I expect much pushback from our readers, and I strongly suspect, from Jeralyn too.

This is an Open Thread.

< 11 Dimensional Chess And The Public Option | "Ms Hepatitis C" Pleads Guilty, Agrees to 20 Year Sentence >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Greenwald touts a new Law & Order (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 06:38:19 PM EST
    tonight at 8EDT. I used to watch the original every Wednesday (?) night--in the 90s. I pretty much stopped watching when Carey Lowell left. But I might give it another shot. IIRC, Jeralyn doesn't think much of the show. . .

    Other than that, taking 5 days off from cardio makes it hard to get started again.

    This one puts Bush on trial (none / 0) (#6)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 06:58:16 PM EST
    says the promo -- and for that, I'll watch!


    Parent
    Dollhouse still on? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Fabian on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 06:45:07 PM EST
    Good and bad, I guess.  Whedon says he'll do web only content after Dollhouse and I'm looking forward to that day.  I'm glad he's still making a buck at the networks for now.

    I wonder if health care/insurance reform, (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 06:54:12 PM EST
    with that pesky public option back and forth, is not becoming sort of old hat for the president as well.  Besides, some Republicans have added neglect of  warring capabilities and our soldiers to their anti-health care armamentarium--which may well send shivers up, down and around the  White House.  The intelligence is not really hot off the griddle.  Moreover, the Iran nuclear capability has been, after all, an ongoing dilemma and the new intelligence is, apparently,  less definitive on weapons than the potential and  inherent abilities for weapons grade materials.

    Seemed like a good week for the PO (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by magster on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 06:59:12 PM EST
    I feel more optomistic.

    Time Magazine (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:07:19 PM EST
    Is doing a year-long series of stories on Detroit.  They bought a house in Detroit, and having their reporters report on every angle of the city.  I'm biased becasue it's my hometown, but it looks to be a great (although sad, at times) series of stories.

    This summer the editors at Time Inc. did something a little out of the ordinary for us or, frankly, for anybody: we bought a house in Detroit. As houses go, it's nice enough -- three stories, five bedrooms, 3½ baths with a yard and a basement. We paid $99,000, about $80,000 above the average price of a house in the city limits.

    Why would we ever do such a thing? Because we believe that Detroit right now is a great American story. No city has had more influence on the country's economic and social evolution. Detroit was the birthplace of both the industrial age and the nation's middle class, and the city's rise and fall -- and struggle to rise again -- are a window into the challenges facing all of modern America. From urban planning to the crisis of manufacturing, from the lingering role of race and class in our society to the struggle for better health care and education, it's all happening at its most extreme in the Motor City.

    As a story, Detroit has been misunderstood, underreported, stereotyped, avoided and exploited for decades. To get it right, we decided to become stakeholders. Over the next year, we intend to flood the D-zone with journalists, photographers, videographers and bloggers from TIME and TIME.com, Fortune and Fortune.com, CNNMoney.com, Money, even Sports Illustrated. Some will live in the house -- dubbed the "D-Shack" after Detroit-area native Kid Rock dropped by with a housewarming gift of a Gothic D (for the mantel) plus a keg of his Badass Beer -- and others will stay there while reporting. The house will be a gathering place and a clearinghouse; we've already had Mayor Dave Bing over for dinner and thrown a lawn party to greet our new neighbors.

    SNIP

    The hope is that through all these efforts, a narrative arc about Detroit will emerge over the next year that can somehow make a difference. While we do not intend to be cheerleaders or apologists, we do have a point of view: we want Detroit to recover and find its way into the future.

    Not all that long ago, Detroit was one of the richest places in the country, the citadel of the auto age, the "arsenal of democracy," the nexus of technology and innovation. Today it struggles for its life: not one national chain operates a grocery store in the entire 138-sq.-mi. city limits of Detroit. The estimated functional illiteracy rate in the city limits hovers near 50%. The unsolved-murder rate is about 70%, and unemployment is around an astonishing 29%.

    Our challenge is to bring a sense of surprise, discovery, enlightenment, horror, joy, inspiration and fun to the reality of Detroit. And that reality is that Detroit, like all other cities, is human. Beneath the statistics and the headlines, people live there. They struggle with profound change, they fight to raise and educate their families, they mourn the past, and they hope for a brighter future.

    But most of all, Detroiters are proud of their city. They fight to open charter schools. To jail criminals and bring back the rule of law. To band together and renew their neighborhoods. To open restaurants, stores and clinics. To make great music and try to beat the Yankees.

    For the next year, we'll be right there with them, and we hope you'll join us for this adventure. It matters.

    John Huey is Time Inc.'s editor-in-chief.



    It is interesting (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:19:59 PM EST
    that about the time Obama's approval is threatening to slip below 50% for the first time, suddenly media is talking about capturing terrorists, nukes, etc, etc etc.

    I know, it's just a coincidence, but I have no faith in Govt.  And I believe Obama learned plenty about public manipulation from the Bush administration.

    Like Clinton (none / 0) (#18)
    by NealB on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 08:11:07 PM EST
    who continued fawningly in the path of Reagan / Bush. The more things don't change, the less they stay the same.

    Parent
    I don't remember (none / 0) (#25)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 09:24:16 PM EST
    terrorist threats when Clinton's approval numbers were flailing.

    Parent
    BTD, while you are cheerleading, please (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by oculus on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:26:38 PM EST
    explain why you believe it is crucial for U.S. military to be in Afghanistan, what your goals for U.S. military remaining there, and at what point, and based on what markers, you believe the U.S. military should leave there.  Thank you.

    Yes, please. (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Fabian on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 08:24:20 PM EST
    Afghanistan is what it is and our being there doesn't appear to have changed that.  So nation building looks to be useless - and propping up the central government.

    If it's al Quaeda and the Taliban we are to defeat, how is it to be done?  

    Parent

    I'm very sorry that Amy Acker (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 09:36:31 PM EST
    is only going to be on a few episodes of Dollhouse this year.  She does an outstanding job on that show.  I hope they don't waste her on whatever show she's going to.

    Next week... (none / 0) (#1)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 06:36:33 PM EST
    ...is a long way away.  Football however, is tomorrow.  

    Nudge, nudge.  Wink, wink.  Say no more...

    I dunno (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 06:58:10 PM EST
    You might not like it tomorrow.

    I'm leaning the other way right now.

    Parent

    That would be a shame. (none / 0) (#13)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:24:01 PM EST
    Keep in mind that KF is 6 and 2 against PSU.  Some suggest that he's got JoPa's number, I think it's more of a personal thing.  

    Q. Did you grow up a Penn State football fan?

    COACH FERENTZ: I did. I did. My goal was to go there, probably like everybody in the state, and at that time, I'll just qualify it, when I was in high school, Pitt was Iowa. That's not a good analogy, but they were 1 and 10, I think 1 and 10 my senior year, and I went down and saw them play at UCLA, and it was like 73 to 7 or something like that, or 77 to 3.

    Besides, I would hate to have to taunt you should be be wrong.  

    What's the line?

    Parent

    Ducks play Cal Bears (none / 0) (#22)
    by caseyOR on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 09:05:31 PM EST
    And it is on the TeeVee! Can Oregon win against Cal? The Ducks do have more than 300 uniform combinations. Perhaps they can dazzle Cal with their sartorial splendor.

    Parent
    You may have hit upon their only hope ... (none / 0) (#40)
    by cymro on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 03:38:31 AM EST
    ... but do the coaches know that? I expect Cal to win by at least a TD.

    Parent
    Closing weekend at Emerald Downs (none / 0) (#9)
    by shoephone on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:10:30 PM EST
    I'll be at the horse races tomorrow afternoon with a few friends. My new strategy: bet only the longshots. It seems to work as well as anything. Then it's home to congregate in the kitchen where we will all bake original and inventive pizzas for my birthday dinner.

    (Since the Huskies won last Saturday, I feel justified in taking one weekend off from college football.)

    Bet jockeys, not horses. (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:20:29 PM EST
    Find out who's been riding winners and bet the jockeys.

    And happy birthday!

    Parent

    My daughter had a large gray pony (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 10:51:13 PM EST
    who was just gorgeous; she competed on him on the local and regional circuit for about three years.  As with most dapple grays, he's now almost completely white, but still just a great-looking animal.

    After about 5 years of not riding much - she's almost 23 - she's thinking about getting back into it; those horse show years were grueling in many respects, but the barn is a great place for a pre-teen and teenage girl.  During those years when other girls were rejecting their mothers and rebelling to a fare-thee-well, we were going to horse shows and spending time together that helped get us over the worst of those years.

    It's not a cheap sport, that's for sure, and there is a time commitment that is daunting, but we made life-long friends, and cemented our own relationship, and that, as they say, is priceless!

    Parent

    Thx for the birthday wishes (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by shoephone on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 11:56:13 PM EST
    I'm pretending I'm not really turning __ years old.

    I used to always bet the jockeys, then the horses, then the jockeys+horses+track conditions and I usually won one or two races. Then two years ago I lost every race and got bored with studying stats. LAst year I threw caution to the wind, bet only the longshots and won two races. Came home with more $ in my pocket then I went there with.

    I'll probably use this same strategy until I start another losing streak and after that... it'll be "eeny-meeny-miney-mo" on into my senior years.

    (Secret to staying afloat: I never bring more than $40 cash with me to the track... and only go there once a year!)

    Parent

    Had lunch last week with a long-time (none / 0) (#49)
    by Anne on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 11:08:48 PM EST
    friend, and we were yakking about our kids, and my friend said..."things are just so much different than they were 20 years ago..."  I just busted out laughing and said..."you do realize that it's been 40 years since we were 16, don't you?"

    Put that way, it's hard not to feel ancient, but on the other hand, I am really happy that I have had this friend for 40 years...

    Parent

    Happy birthday! (none / 0) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:18:05 PM EST
    The Huskies didn't just win, they beat USC!  Given that my first degree is from WSU, I normally say Huck the Fuskies, but there's something really satisfying about any Washington team that beats USC.

    Parent
    Thx Teresa (none / 0) (#37)
    by shoephone on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 12:00:35 AM EST
    It's the first time I've rooted that hard for the Dawgs. They really deserved it. I almost cried. (But I'm a traitor anyway. My friend's kid plays for USC, and I just can't help it, I love to see him do well too.)

    Parent
    Happy Birthday (none / 0) (#38)
    by MO Blue on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 01:19:09 AM EST
    and good luck at the track.

     Use to go to the track with my dad. We had a lot of fun. Me with my $2 bets and him betting quite a bit more.

    Parent

    Thx Mo Blue. (none / 0) (#39)
    by shoephone on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 01:56:11 AM EST
    (At the end of the day, $2 bettors often come out on top!)

    Parent
    So, was there a Top Chef discussion (none / 0) (#14)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:26:36 PM EST
    that I missed?  Andgarden, did you watch or DVR this week's episode?  I won't mention who went home until I know whether you watched.

    Also, did anyone watch Flash Forward last night?  Interesting premise for a show -looks worth watching more of.

    Now, I have to catch up on Fringe...

    Yup, I watched (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 07:53:37 PM EST
    Nothing special IMO.

    Parent
    Yeah, it wasn't one of my favorite (none / 0) (#17)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 08:09:22 PM EST
    episodes; it was almost like, "we've still got some dead weight we need to get rid of, so let's just cut to the chase."

    Don't you think it's telling that two of the three who had the most trouble with the decontstruction are the ones who really need to hit the road?  Almost like the elimination challenge was designed to do just what it did.

    I was really hoping to see Robyn go...maybe next episode.

    Parent

    Yup, she's overstayed (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 08:18:19 PM EST
    her welcome IMO. But Ron was pretty awful too, so I wasn't exactly sorry about the result. Jennifer makes it to the final 3, that's my call.

    Parent
    i loved ron's story, tho (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Dadler on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 09:27:48 PM EST
    and he seemed like a big sweet guy, who genuinely appreciated everything this country has enabled him to earn.  

    Parent
    How could one not be touched (none / 0) (#27)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 09:33:56 PM EST
    by his comment about the American Dream?

    I liked him because of his story, but I think he was way overmatched in terms of his culinary skill.

    Michael Voltaggio seems to be eclipsing his brother, Bryan, and I think Kevin and Jennifer are still strong; I don't see how these are not the final four.

    Told my husband we have to go to Bryan's restaurant, Volt - it's about 45 minutes from us.

    Parent

    that is the MAJOR problem... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 08:05:30 AM EST
    ...with TOP CHEF.  In other such shows (Project Runway, let's say), you can decide for yourself what is good and deserving of a win or not, with TOP CHEF you can't taste the food.  Frustrates me sometimes, but it's really a personality show anyway.  I also find that these shows never seem set up to find out who's really the best at something, but who can be the best with a stopwatch and a whip at their behind.  Which is fine.  It was interesting also to watch TOP CHEF MASTERS and see accomplished chefs realize that it was no way to really cook good food, just to scramble and HOPE something turns out good.  I would have loved to see Tom Collichio (sic?) on MASTERS, and I think it was kind of a copout he wasn't.  Probably knew he'd get killed, why bother with it?

    Parent
    IMO, Top Chef Masters (none / 0) (#42)
    by andgarden on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 08:07:55 AM EST
    was a much better show. In a sense, it's what Top Chef should have been in the first place.

    Parent
    agreed (none / 0) (#45)
    by Dadler on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 08:43:15 AM EST
    project runway needs a similar side-event.  love to see michael kors or zac posen or whomever try to make a decent garment in six hours with a hundred-fifty bucks.

    what i really would like to see is a reality show where average people get to present their plans for remaking, rejuvinating the nation, and then one of them gets elected "president" by a viewer call vote.  something where alternative voices and plans are presented by normal folks on a wide, projected scale, rather than in the soundbites and skewed stories they get in media blurbs.  sure, you'd have to have a few crazies in the mix, but all the better to let them show their real "representative" colors.

    Parent

    I've watched Project Runway maybe twice (none / 0) (#46)
    by andgarden on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 08:45:04 AM EST
    I do not have the fashion bug.

    Parent
    i don't have the bug (none / 0) (#48)
    by Dadler on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 09:35:05 AM EST
    but of all those shows, runway is the most impressive to me, simply for the skill needed design an outfit, choose fabric on a shoestring budget, and then sew it up in a ridiculously restricted amount of time.

    Parent
    But they lost. . . (none / 0) (#23)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 09:15:34 PM EST


    Disagree (none / 0) (#31)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 10:27:27 PM EST
    I think it was the right decision supported by ages of precedent.

    Parent
    Justice Stevens, for the majority: (none / 0) (#33)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 10:32:32 PM EST
    Two polar propositions are perfectly clear. On the one hand, it has long been accepted that the sovereign may not take the property of A for the sole purpose of transferring it to another private party B, even though A is paid just compensation. On the other hand, it is equally clear that a State may transfer property from one private party to another if future "use by the public" is the purpose of the taking; the condemnation of land for a railroad with common-carrier duties is a familiar example. Neither of these propositions, however, determines the disposition of this case.

         As for the first proposition, the City would no doubt be forbidden from taking petitioners' land for the purpose of conferring a private benefit on a particular private party. See Midkiff, 467 U. S., at 245 ("A purely private taking could not withstand the scrutiny of the public use requirement; it would serve no legitimate purpose of government and would thus be void"); Missouri Pacific R. Co. v. Nebraska, 164 U. S. 403 (1896).5 Nor would the City be allowed to take property under the mere pretext of a public purpose, when its actual purpose was to bestow a private benefit. The takings before us, however, would be executed pursuant to a "carefully considered" development plan. 268 Conn., at 54, 843 A. 2d, at 536. The trial judge and all the members of the Supreme Court of Connecticut agreed that there was no evidence of an illegitimate purpose in this case.6 Therefore, as was true of the statute challenged in Midkiff, 467 U. S., at 245, the City's development plan was not adopted "to benefit a particular class of identifiable individuals."

         On the other hand, this is not a case in which the City is planning to open the condemned land--at least not in its entirety--to use by the general public. Nor will the private lessees of the land in any sense be required to operate like common carriers, making their services available to all comers. But although such a projected use would be sufficient to satisfy the public use requirement, this "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public." Id., at 244. Indeed, while many state courts in the mid-19th century endorsed "use by the public" as the proper definition of public use, that narrow view steadily eroded over time. Not only was the "use by the public" test difficult to administer (e.g., what proportion of the public need have access to the property? at what price?),7 but it proved to be impractical given the diverse and always evolving needs of society.8 Accordingly, when this Court began applying the Fifth Amendment to the States at the close of the 19th century, it embraced the broader and more natural interpretation of public use as "public purpose." See, e.g., Fallbrook Irrigation Dist. v. Bradley, 164 U. S. 112, 158-164 (1896). Thus, in a case upholding a mining company's use of an aerial bucket line to transport ore over property it did not own, Justice Holmes' opinion for the Court stressed "the inadequacy of use by the general public as a universal test." Strickley v. Highland Boy Gold Mining Co., 200 U. S. 527, 531 (1906).9 We have repeatedly and consistently rejected that narrow test ever since.10

         The disposition of this case therefore turns on the question whether the City's development plan serves a "public purpose." Without exception, our cases have defined that concept broadly, reflecting our longstanding policy of deference to legislative judgments in this field.



    Parent
    To be more explicit, Justice Kennedy (none / 0) (#34)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 10:39:43 PM EST
    makes clear that the Court will continue to be deferential on economic matters:

         Justice Kennedy, concurring.

         I join the opinion for the Court and add these further observations.

         

    This Court has declared that a taking should be upheld as consistent with the Public Use Clause, U. S. Const., Amdt. 5., as long as it is "rationally related to a conceivable public purpose." Hawaii Housing Authority v. Midkiff, 467 U. S. 229, 241 (1984); see also Berman v. Parker, 348 U. S. 26 (1954). This deferential standard of review echoes the rational-basis test used to review economic regulation under the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses, see, e.g., FCC v. Beach Communications, Inc., 508 U. S. 307, 313-314 (1993); Williamson v. Lee Optical of Okla., Inc., 348 U. S. 483 (1955). The determination that a rational-basis standard of review is appropriate does not, however, alter the fact that transfers intended to confer benefits on particular, favored private entities, and with only incidental or pretextual public benefits, are forbidden by the Public Use Clause.

         A court applying rational-basis review under the Public Use Clause should strike down a taking that, by a clear showing, is intended to favor a particular private party, with only incidental or pretextual public benefits, just as a court applying rational-basis review under the Equal Protection Clause must strike down a government classification that is clearly intended to injure a particular class of private parties, with only incidental or pretextual public justifications. See Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, Inc., 473 U. S. 432, 446-447, 450 (1985); Department of Agriculture v. Moreno, 413 U. S. 528, 533-536 (1973). As the trial court in this case was correct to observe, "Where the purpose [of a taking] is economic development and that development is to be carried out by private parties or private parties will be benefited, the court must decide if the stated public purpose--economic advantage to a city sorely in need of it--is only incidental to the benefits that will be confined on private parties of a development plan." 2 App. to Pet. for Cert. 263. See also ante, at 7.

         A court confronted with a plausible accusation of impermissible favoritism to private parties should treat the objection as a serious one and review the record to see if it has merit, though with the presumption that the government's actions were reasonable and intended to serve a public purpose. Here, the trial court conducted a careful and extensive inquiry into "whether, in fact, the development plan is of primary benefit to ... the developer [i.e., Corcoran Jennison], and private businesses which may eventually locate in the plan area [e.g., Pfizer], and in that regard, only of incidental benefit to the city." 2 App. to Pet. for Cert. 261. The trial court considered testimony from government officials and corporate officers; id., at 266-271; documentary evidence of communications between these parties, ibid.; respondents' awareness of New London's depressed economic condition and evidence corroborating the validity of this concern, id., at 272-273, 278-279; the substantial commitment of public funds by the State to the development project before most of the private beneficiaries were known, id., at 276; evidence that respondents reviewed a variety of development plans and chose a private developer from a group of applicants rather than picking out a particular transferee beforehand, id., at 273, 278; and the fact that the other private beneficiaries of the project are still unknown because the office space proposed to be built has not yet been rented, id., at 278.

         The trial court concluded, based on these findings, that benefiting Pfizer was not "the primary motivation or effect of this development plan"; instead, "the primary motivation for [respondents] was to take advantage of Pfizer's presence." Id., at 276. Likewise, the trial court concluded that "[t]here is nothing in the record to indicate that ... [respondents] were motivated by a desire to aid [other] particular private entities." Id., at 278. See also ante, at 7-8. Even the dissenting justices on the Connecticut Supreme Court agreed that respondents' development plan was intended to revitalize the local economy, not to serve the interests of Pfizer, Corcoran Jennison, or any other private party. 268 Conn. 1, 159, 843 A. 2d 500, 595 (2004) (Zarella, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part). This case, then, survives the meaningful rational basis review that in my view is required under the Public Use Clause.



    Parent
    Mixed. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ben Masel on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 08:10:49 AM EST
    While the SCOTUS upheld eminent powers, in the resulting furor several (many?) States enacted statutes curtailing their use.

    Parent
    That is entirely consistent (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 08:14:47 AM EST
    with the majority opinion. The minority wanted to overturn precedent and impose a national rule.

    Parent
    Anthony Weiner on the late local news (none / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 09:18:11 PM EST
    talking up the public option.