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Roman Polanski Files Bail Request

Director Roman Polanski has filed his request for bail. A Swiss official said it could take a few weeks to decide, and the decision can be appealed.

The D.A.'s office in Los Angeles denied the recent appellate ruling (or the current round of pleadings attacking the validity of the guilty plea and arguing over whether Polanski had to be present for a ruling) were the reason for the extradition request. They say it was simply a matter of opportunity, they had enough advance notice of when he would in Zurich via the film festival's press releases.

Ms. Gibbons, the district attorney’s spokeswoman, said the appellate court ruling had nothing to do with the extradition request, which, she said, was handled by David Walgren, a deputy district attorney assigned to Mr. Polanski’s case.[More...]

Regarding the appellate case:

The question rises, in part, out of a documentary about the case released last year in which a deputy district attorney described how he had coached the judge about Mr. Polanski’s sentencing.

Los Angeles prosecutors have long argued that Mr. Polanski forfeited his rights by fleeing and has no standing to challenge his treatment unless he returns. Mr. Polanski’s representatives counter that the need to remedy corrupt justice in Los Angeles supersedes any requirement that Mr. Polanski return. The victim in the case, Samantha Geimer, has long publicly identified herself and expressed forgiveness of Mr. Polanski.

In addition to the current French Culture Minister's criticism of the U.S. justice system, a former Minister weighs in:

Jack Lang, a former French culture minister, said that for Europeans the development showed that the American system of justice had run amok.

“Sometimes, the American justice system shows an excess of formalism,” Mr. Lang said, “like an infernal machine that advances inexorably and blindly.”

Polanski pleaded guilty to one count of unlawful sex with a person under 18. The remaining charges against him, including the ones most frequently cited by those calling for his head, were dismissed. The transcript of the guilty plea hearing is here.

On page 16 of the plea colloquy, the Judge advised Polanski that the plea deal was not binding on him and he would not make a decision until he had read the probation report, and that if he decided not to go along with the plea agreement, Polanski would be allowed to withdraw his plea. As required by law, he then ordered Polanski into custody for the psych evaluation so doctors could determine whether he was (in the words of the statute) a Mentally Disordered Sex Offender. If he were found to be one, he could be sentenced to an indeterminate term in the state mental hospital.

The probation report came back finding Polanski was not a MDSO and recommended probation with no further jail time (Polanski had spent 42 days in custody for the psych eval.)

That seems to be when things really started going south -- with the Judge and the prosecutor (the one not involved in the case) cooking up a scheme to send Polanski back to to prison saying he needed more time in the psych ward and attempting to force him into a voluntary deportation. (The Judge had the power at that time to recommend against deportation should the feds institute an a proceeding, but it could not order Polanski deported or force him, as a condition of his sentence, to voluntarily deport himself.)

The victim in the case, then 13, testified before the grand jury. Polanski and his lawyers were not present at that hearing and like all grand jury testimony, the presentation of evidence was one-sided and not subject to cross-examination. That's not to say it was false, just that it was untested.

The documentary, Wanted and Desired, shows the collusion between the prosecutor and the judge via interviews with the prosecutor, Polanski's lawyers and the prosecutor handling the case. (I'm in the middle of watching it, I'll write more on it when I've finished. If you have a streaming Netflix account, it's available for immediate viewing.)

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  • Display: Sort:
    Vow to self: do not spend another minute (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:19:43 PM EST
    arguing about Roman Polanski.  No dog in this hunt.

    Excellent summary, but I have a question: (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:33:22 PM EST
    After RP failed to appear for sentencing, was a new criminal charge brought against him alleging his flight as an additional offense (whatever it might be called in California), such as bail jumping, failure to appear, whatever?  If so, is that the charge, or one of the charges, for which his extradition is presently sought?  Or is the only pending charge, and the only pending extradition request, for the underlying sex offense(s), which remain unresolved because after his plea no sentence was imposed and served?

    While I'm at it, here's another question.  The general legal rule is that you can't get a court to decide your case while you are in fugitive status.  The rationale is that the parties can have the benefit of our court system only when they manifest a willingness to accept the court's decision (whether favorable or unfavorable), before knowing what the decision will be.  The act of fleeing the jurisdiction strongly implies an unwillingness to abide by the decision if it turns out to be unfavorable, so the court will not go further with your case, at least until you return.  Assuming this is the ordinary doctrine in California, are there exceptions that would allow RP's pending motion and appeal to be decided even while he stayed in Europe?  Even if not, are the fugitive's motions or appeal generally reinstated after s/he returns to the jurisdiction, or are they dismissed as a penalty for having fled?

    These are good questions (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:58:06 PM EST
    I really don't understand how you can invoke the jurisdiction of the California courts to file a motion to dismiss, but then oppose extradition.  The authority of the courts is not contingent upon whether they rule in your favor.

    Parent
    bail (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by diogenes on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:33:27 PM EST
    Bail is meant to allow the release of a suspect and to ensure his return.  Giving a fugitive bail to allow him to return to the France that harbored him for thirty years is ridiculous unless maybe about twenty of his Hollywood buddies each signed over 100% of their future earning potential as bail, thus (perhaps) encouraging him to show up in court.

    So (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:47:38 PM EST
    Allegedly the judge in the case colluded with a prosecutor (not on the case) to cook up a scheme to sentence Polanski to more than time served than was agreed to in his very generous plea deal.  (We don't know for sure since the judge is not alive to tell his side of the story, right?).

    Even if all true, why doesn't Polanski just come back and face the music?  He seems to have a lot of people convinced that he should suffer no further repercussions of his little "transgression", and everyone seems confident he will get no jail time, so, why doesn't he come back and get this over with?

    Be a man, Polanski.

    Correct me if I'm wrong (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:13:29 PM EST
    but the alleged "collusion" referred to a conversation between the DA and the judge, after the judge let Polanksi leave the country to finish his film while on bail (almost unheard of in child-rape cases), and when pictures of Polanski whooping it up at Oktoberfest surfaced, the DA said something to the effect that "Polanski is making a fool of you."

    THAT's the big collusion?

    Parent

    I'm a little confused on whether or not (none / 0) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:24:18 PM EST
    the judge actually let Polanskileave the country to finish his film while on bail.

    The acclaimed Rosemary's Baby and Chinatown director was set free on $2,000 bond and the judge gave him a 90-day stay from prosecution so he could finish his then current film project, Hurricane. (The judge reversed his decision after Polanski took a trip to Munich to arrange film financing, even though his bail conditions were supposed to keep him in California). link


    Parent
    He let Polanski leave to finish the film (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:34:17 PM EST
    When he saw the photograph, he ordered him back for sentencing. I believe that's when he made began making improper comments to the media and made it clear he wouldn't go along with the plea bargain and worse, told Polanski's lawyers and the DA they wouldn't be allowed to argue the matters in the probation report which called for probation.

    I guess (and I'm not sure of this) since he wasn't sending Polanski to prison per se, but back to the psych ward (which was in a maximum security prison) he thought he could do this without rejecting the plea bargain which would have allowed Polanski to withdraw his plea. I'll report back when I've finished watching the film.

    I haven't read that a bail jumping charge was brought against him. I think (but don't know for sure) the extradition is just on the failure to appear for sentencing, not a separate criminal offense. If that's true, I wonder why they never separately charged him with the separate offense.

    Parent

    Of course while Polanski is free to withdraw (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:41:42 PM EST
    his plea the State is also free to reinstate the other charges against him its not like they were dismissed for cause the State willingly dropped them in exchange for his admission of guilt on the lesser charges.

    Parent
    Filming was to take place in Tahiti, (none / 0) (#123)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:52:19 PM EST
    The DA's "plenty of notice this time" (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:46:19 PM EST
    excuse is world-class lame.

    An acquaintance worked on the crew of Polanski's movie "The Ghost", which filmed in Germany late last winter and early this spring.

    I - a nobody - knew  late last year, i.e., about 6 weeks in advance, that Polanski would be in Germany, because this acquaintance was going on and on mooning about how "I'm gonna get to work on Polanski's film and to go to Berlin, too."

    "When," asked scribe.

    "After the turn of the year," says acquaintance.

    Filming dates and activity are hardly secrets, especially in The Company town of LA, and especially when someone high-profile like Polanski is involved.

    And, FWIW, Germany also has an extradition treaty with the US.

    But, LA didn't go to the Germans.
    -

    It turns out, BTW, I may have made a minor factual error the other day.  Since, contrary to my earlier belief, Switzerland is not a member of the EU, an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights might not be available to Polanski in the event the Swiss courts turn him down and order him extradited.  So, the LA DA may have engaged in a little forum-shopping to avoid the additional level of judicial review the ECHR would impose.

    Although, according to people who worked (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:49:03 PM EST
    on Ghost, Polanski sometimes directed by remote, possibly to avoid arrest.  

    Parent
    He phoned it in. Literally. That's funny. (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:53:24 PM EST
    I have not heard that. (none / 0) (#61)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:51:02 PM EST
    But it would be funny if he had.

    Parent
    When in Germany directing his latest film, (none / 0) (#73)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:04:49 PM EST
    NYT:
    When in Germany directing his latest film, "The Ghost," Mr. Polanski occasionally avoided the set, directing through a remote communications setup and leading some members of the cast and crew to believe that he was trying to make apprehension more difficult, according to a person briefed on the shoot and speaking on condition of anonymity.


    Parent
    What would the grounds of the ECHR appeal be? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:35:56 PM EST
    Are you suggesting he go for the Pinochet "too old to be held accountable defense" - just curious, if so would you apply the same standard to accused concetration camp guards whose alleged crimes occured over a half century ago and are in their late-70s at the youngest?

    Parent
    Anything which could be raised in the ECHR. (none / 0) (#64)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:53:18 PM EST
    Like I mentioned yesterday, he could start with the overcrowded, brutal conditions of the California prison system, his advanced age, the likelihood of being beaten and/or raped in prison himself, the selective (timewise) nature of the seeking extradition, etc.

    But, as I noted, it would appear that the ECHR is not available to him (though I will gladly defer to someone with greater knowlege of Euro-law than mine).

    Parent

    Switzerland is a (none / 0) (#76)
    by jnicola on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:07:47 PM EST
    signatory to the basic European Convention on Human Rights which the Court governs, and has even ratified several of the Additional Protocols which extended the basic rights laid out in the convention.

    Parent
    So, does that mean the ECHR is, or is not , (none / 0) (#77)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:09:43 PM EST
    available to Polanski in the event of a result in the Swiss courts which he deems adverse to his interests?

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#176)
    by jnicola on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 02:05:08 AM EST
    that it is available to him. Certainly Switzerland has been taken to the ECHR before, and it would seem to me that he has arguments under the Articles in the basic Convention, which Switzerland has definitely ratified, and that these should be appealable to the Court. I'm not an expert, though. It's possible that there's some rule regarding extradition cases which might prevent it, but it seems unlikely.

    Parent
    An excellent (none / 0) (#2)
    by eric on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:32:38 PM EST
    recitation of the background and facts.  I hope everyone reads it before they decide to post a comment.

    We've got another frenchmen... (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:49:49 PM EST
    worth quoting, they're on fire with their observations of our justice system across the pond...

    "Sometimes, the American justice system shows an excess of formalism," Mr. Lang said, "like an infernal machine that advances inexorably and blindly."

    You said it Mr. Lang..."an infernal machine"...wow did he nail it!

    Parent

    Funny how the French didn't seem to extend this (none / 0) (#48)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:38:47 PM EST
    leniency to a much older man, with much more ancient crimes in the case of Maurice Papon.

    Parent
    That is odd... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:02:22 PM EST
    now that I know who Maurice Papon is...sounds like he could be called a victim of France's infernal machine, or a scape-goat for France's national WWII guilt.

    Parent
    What a ridiculous comparison (none / 0) (#174)
    by caramel on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 01:33:01 AM EST
    between Papon and Polanski...

    Parent
    Mr. Polanski is willing to accept (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:36:02 PM EST
    conditions as to release on bail.  

    you lasted (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by CoralGables on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:11:14 PM EST
    16 minutes and 19 seconds :)

    (or does snark not count)

    Parent

    Pathetic, huh? (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:11:59 PM EST
    My addiction to Mr. Polanski's legal (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:28:18 PM EST
    plight resembles my earlier addiction to Sotomayor Judicial Comm. confirm. hrgs.  None of my friends heeds nor cares!

    Parent
    INAL, but I would think that (none / 0) (#18)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:34:28 PM EST
    Mr. Polanski agreed to abide by certain conditions to be released on bail in CA and chose not to do so.

    Parent
    I was snarking. Not the best ploy (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:40:16 PM EST
    to tell judge considering bail request pending extradition hrg. you are willing to have conditions attached to release on bail.  

    Parent
    My snark meter wasn't working (none / 0) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:43:25 PM EST
    on that one. Maybe, because as I said, I'm not a lawyer.

    Parent
    Let's hear it for the IANAL (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:12:52 PM EST
    I Am Not a Lawyer. (I'm on a self-imposed time-out from Jeralyn's Polanski threads, but for you I'll dip back in for a moment Mo Blue. Stay strong.)

    Parent
    According to the transcript of change of (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:56:08 PM EST
    plea, maximum state prison time for violation of PC 261.5 wss 20 years.  That is what Mr. Polanski sd. in response to the DDA's inquiry.  No one corrected him.

    Also, the transcript does include what is known in CA as a "Harvey waiver," which permits the court to take into account the factual basis of every count charged, not just the count to which defendant pleaded guilty.  Surprising.

    Transcript of change of please does NOT (none / 0) (#25)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:43:06 PM EST
    include a Harvey waiver.  Which means sentencing judge would be limited to facts as admitted by Polanski re PC 261.5 charge.  

    Parent
    Giving a near professional fugitive bail (none / 0) (#9)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:56:34 PM EST
    doesn't seem like a particularly wise move.

    So indeed (none / 0) (#10)
    by maddog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:57:10 PM EST
    I read a piece today that asked the question,  "What if this was Monsignor Polanski?"  Would your arguments change? Would you care about the length of time that he has not been allow back into the country or time served or the fact that the child who was abused didn't care anymore?  Would it matter to you if there was something fishy with the plea deal? I doubt it.

    AP Article on Polanski's request for bail (none / 0) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:04:41 PM EST
    Legal experts predicted the 76-year-old filmmaker will not be freed anytime soon from the prison in Zurich, for he is expected to stay incarcerated until the criminal court ruling and through any appeal from either side. Then, in a separate legal operation, he must contest an expected U.S. extradition request that has not yet been received by the Swiss.
    ...
    The Swiss Justice Ministry did not rule out the possibility that Polanski could be released on bail under very strict conditions that he doesn't flee Switzerland, but said house arrest had never happened before in a similar case.

    "In most cases the imprisoned person has to remain in detention for the whole process," explained Peter Cosandey, another former Zurich prosecutor.

    "The chances that he will be exempted from prison are rather small," he added, because Polanski wasn't a Swiss citizen or a permanent resident and had already jumped bail years ago in the United States.
    ...
    Yet on Tuesday, Poland's prime minister urged his Cabinet ministers to use greater restraint in defending Polanski, reminding them that it is a "case of rape and of punishment for having sex with a child."



    very interested (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:15:05 PM EST
    to hear your opinion of the documentary.  I pimped it all day yesterday.  while clearly being sympathetic to Polanski I thought it was quite even handed.

    the interviews with the woman (then girl) involved were great I thought.  

    I saw a talking head on cable last night say that the reason of the resurgence of his troubles was that film and the light it cast on the prosecutors involved.  I also wondered if you thought that was true.

    I guess I'll have to see it (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:37:02 PM EST
    Because things I've read said it's so pro-Polanski, including glossing over "sodomy", waving the grand jury testimony of the girl on a backscreen (but didn't actually show what she said about the extreme horrible nature of what happened - see here and here), discussing the fact that the judge at the center of the controversy had two girlfriends (even though there was no indication he was ever married, and which doesn't seem relevant) and supposedly kept a scrapbook of all the celebrities that came through his courtroom, while Polanski was shown as a long-suffering man and tragic figure.

    I'm just amazed that one documentary is taken as the gospel truth by so many people.

    Parent

    I've come to the conclusion (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:41:41 PM EST
    that documentaries are in the same general class of truthfulness as the stuff you read on the internet.

    Parent
    please (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:58:09 PM EST
    familiarize yourself with the facts before spouting off. I've posted the motion several times. The transcript of the documentary is attached as an exhibit. It's live interviews with the prosecutor. He goes on for pages about what he and the judge (who was his friend)talked about.

    As for the 1977 letter of the victim to the court, advocating for Polanski, it's also attached to the motion (p. 109) A second one follows it.

    Parent

    Like I said up thread (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:42:44 PM EST
    there are the facts you include in a documentary, and those you leave out.

    In addition, as the film maker, there is the context you use to present the facts you do choose to include.

    It's (meant to be) entertaining and thought-provoking, and not at all a rigorous presentation of facts...

    Parent

    not at all (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:44:36 PM EST
    a rigorous presentation of facts...

    thats funny
    I always thought that is exactly what a documentary, other than Michael Moores, is supposed to be.

    Parent

    It is funny. (none / 0) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:12:07 PM EST
    A relative used to be involved in documentaries, one of her best was on Bluegrass music, High Lonesome. None of the political "documentaries" I see today are in the same league, imo. I guess I'm old fashioned that way.

    Parent
    Did the state oppose the motion? (none / 0) (#173)
    by David B on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 12:16:27 AM EST
    Might be worth reading, as well.

    Parent
    They are great educational tools... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:51:39 PM EST
    as long as you have a functioning bs-detector to see the facts through the bias and form your own conclusion...of course nothing should be taken as gospel, even the gospel:)

    And you my friend have a bs-detector that is the envy of the TL community.

    Parent

    when all the facts (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:53:50 PM EST
    are a matter of public record and not really disputed - except on blogs like this one - I think the bs detector may not be all that required.

    Parent
    Ah, yes, the facts. (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:20:41 PM EST
    All true, even the facts the film maker forgot to include in the "documentary."

    And let us not forget the facts of how tough a childhood he had, once we see it so dramatically depicted in the movie he becomes the sympathetic character.

    "When he was 44 he planned and executed the date rape of a 13 y/o girl."

    "Yeah, but look at his childhood. My heart breaks for him."

    I'm looking forward to the documentary about the NYPD cops who raped Abner Louima with a plunger, I'm sure it'll get us all misty-eyed at their hard-luck tales...

    Parent

    Polanski (none / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:27:46 PM EST
    may be the biggest a$$hole that ever lived.  that is not the point as I see it.

    the point as I see it is simple.  even the biggest a$$hole in the world is entitled to a fair shake from the legal system.   if you bother to find out any of the things Jeralyn, for one, has been trying to tell you there is no way in hell you or anyone else could say this man got a fair shake from the legal system.

    he was right to flee.  just MO of course I will let the facts speak for themselves.

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:36:43 PM EST
    At the end of the day, even with all the injustice and abuse of process that occurred, he would have ended up serving a whopping 90 days in jail for what he did.  And you say "he was right to flee"?  Good God!

    Parent
    That to me is the true injustice of (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:55:03 PM EST
    what happened in the Polanski case. That he was given the option of spending a whopping 90 days in jail for what he did. That is where my outrage lies.

    Parent
    I suggest (5.00 / 6) (#74)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:05:41 PM EST
    that anyone wondering how the heck such a plea bargain ever came into existence in the first place ought to read the 1977 letter from the victim's lawyer which appears at pp. 102-104 of the motion to dismiss linked by Jeralyn.

    In short, it is about the desire of the victim and her family to avoid publicity at all costs, lest she suffer further emotional damage and stigma.

    To me, the fact that someone who has been the victim of a crime as terrible as rape would prefer to see the perpetrator get away with a slap on the wrist rather than go through the pain of a trial just serves to make me more disgusted at the original offense.  Imagine, you traumatize someone so badly that all they care about is not suffering any more trauma, even if it means you escape punishment.  It's certainly not an argument for leniency.

    Parent

    I knew that and agree with (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:01:15 PM EST
    To me, the fact that someone who has been the victim of a crime as terrible as rape would prefer to see the perpetrator get away with a slap on the wrist rather than go through the pain of a trial just serves to make me more disgusted at the original offense.  Imagine, you traumatize someone so badly that all they care about is not suffering any more trauma, even if it means you escape punishment.  It's certainly not an argument for leniency.



    Parent
    It's not an argument for leniency... (none / 0) (#82)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:14:48 PM EST
    its an argument for not piling more misery on a poor young girl than she has already had piled on her.

    And 30 years later, we're still piling on and piling on...and for what?  To protect society from Roman Polanski?  Nah.  To get justice for his victim that his victim is actively arguing against?  Nah, can't be it.  

    The misery train rolls on for no other reason than the system gotta get their man...no one can escape the clutches of the infernal machine, no matter the cost in misery.

    Parent

    So if he's left to run (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:21:33 PM EST
    what message does that send?  

    To me, "the more traumatic and disgusting your rape, the better the plea bargain!"  Again, it's Polanski who brought all this publicity and pain down on her head.

    Parent

    It sends the message... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:25:58 PM EST
    that the justice system is not a rigid thing that bends people to its will at any cost to victim and perp, the message that there is wiggle room for common sense and common decency in our societal systems, even if it is far too often absent from our society at large.

    Parent
    but of course (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:40:13 PM EST
    the only time that we can demonstrate this principle is when a rich white man gets a good deal, in part because he raped a woman so young that she was unwilling to go through a trial.

    I see your point on this somewhat, but Polanski in fleeing took a risk, and now he's finally been caught.  The system was pretty lenient considering he's been wandering around making movies for 30 years.

    Parent

    Goes without saying... (none / 0) (#147)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:38:51 PM EST
    equality under the law is one of our fairy tales...no doubt Polanki got rich man's justice in '77, and it ain't right.  But that ain't news.

    That isn't what the debate is about for me, its about the rigid formality of our brand of justice and how it serves no one in this case, and how we should maybe reign in the infernal machine when its formalities serve no one, when the rigid formalities only cause harm and grief.  

    I feel like we the people are being fed to our systems instead of our systems feeding we the people.  We've lost control of our tool, and now we are the tools.  Much bigger issues at stake in my mind than one sc*mbag rapist getting away with it because he's an aristocrat, at least in my mind.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:23:54 PM EST
    yeah, a lot of people are arguing for leniency based upon the fact that the victim managed to put all this behind her.  As if she did so out of some kind of benevolent Christian goodness that we all ought to seek to emulate, as opposed to a completely understandable desire to avoid spending the rest of her life known as that girl who Roman Polanski raped.

    It's unfortunate that the only choices our imperfect world can offer a rape victim are (1) undergo the pain and stigma of a public trial or (2) let the perpetrator escape justice, but we ought to keep in mind that if the victim elects the latter option, that doesn't mean we have anything to be proud of.

    Parent

    You're forgetting choice 3.... (none / 0) (#148)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:45:05 PM EST
    street justice.  I'd much prefer a justice seeker hop a flight to Europe and castrate him if thats what they feel needs to be done, I can live with that...don't sully a whole system of justice anymore than it already is sullied.

    Parent
    Respect for the judicial system. He (none / 0) (#125)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:57:00 PM EST
    FTA'd for felony sentencing hrg.  

    Parent
    Really, the least of the concerns (none / 0) (#157)
    by MKS on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:48:02 PM EST
    First and foremost:  What will happen to the victim, and I agree it is a crummy world that makes her not want to go forward with a trial.

    Second, protecting society from Polanski:  Deport him to France forever.  He's 70 years old.  Everyone knows he is a rapist.  Polanski poses no real threat.

    Third, punishing Polanski. He deserves it...but how to punish more without hurting the victim more.  He has been publicly branded.  

    Fourth, respect for the judicial system.

    I would like to see what Susan Estrich has to say about this.  She is responsible for the rape shield laws; she was raped while in college and told to let it go because nothing could really be done.      

    Parent

    then you problem is with (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:57:52 PM EST
    law makers.  because that is exactly what would have happened to anyone else in the same situation.

    Parent
    Incorrect (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:09:49 PM EST
    the letter from the victim's lawyer states that "the plea in this case is a departure from the general policy of the District Attorney" and, in fact, argued that it was only justified by the presence of "unusual or extraordinary circumstances."

    NOT TO BURDEN YOU WITH TOO MANY FACTS OR ANYTHING, a snotty comment that I would ordinarily eschew but for your equally snotty comment #57.  I'm glad you watched this documentary, but you do not have some kind of monopoly on the facts.

    Parent

    thats funny (none / 0) (#111)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:21:54 PM EST
    did you read you own comment?

    the letter from the victim's lawyer states that "the plea in this case is a departure from the general policy of the District Attorney" and, in fact, argued that it was only justified by the presence of "unusual or extraordinary circumstances."

    the victims lawyer said this.  the victims.
    so
    the departure was justified, according to the victims lawyer because of "unusual or extraordinary circumstances."  as I assume they would have been for anyone else.  so its normal.

    Im done.
    this is pointless.  Jeralyn I eagerly await your review of the film.
    I think I will watch it again tonight.  I saw is almost a year ago.


    Parent

    Haha (none / 0) (#116)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:40:27 PM EST
    Nice logic there, my friend!

    Parent
    Not the lawmakers, as, in his change of (none / 0) (#124)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:55:44 PM EST
    plea, Polanski acknowledges poss. time in state prison could range up to 20 years.  Judge decides where on that sliding scale, if at all, a person convicted of violating PC 261.5 fits.

    Parent
    where do you get (none / 0) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:37:44 PM EST
    the 90 days?


    Parent
    Like this (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:39:42 PM EST
    42 he actually served, plus the 48 days of "additional evaluation time" the judge was going to improperly sentence him to.

    Parent
    so you have (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:41:05 PM EST
    absolute faith in what this "judge" would do in spite of the fact that he did nothing but lie and dissemble right through this whole episode?

    maybe Polanski did not share your faith.


    Parent

    btw (none / 0) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:42:37 PM EST
    if I remember correctly is was the prosecutor who told him to flee.  or at least alerted him so he could.

    Parent
    btw (none / 0) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:46:04 PM EST
    just one other small fact.  dont want to burden anyone with to many.

    the judge made it well known to everyone including the prosecutor who alerted Polanski that he was going to "get" him.

    Parent

    In fairness to the judge (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:49:17 PM EST
    It looks like the prosecutor was basically colluding with the defense in order to let a powerful man get away with a crime in a way that wouldn't have happened with an ordinary defendant.

    Parent
    unbelievable (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:50:17 PM EST
    what makes one think that (none / 0) (#167)
    by sancho on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 10:04:13 PM EST
    if he were an ordinary defendant that he would have been charged? also, isnt it true that "what happened" was because polanski was not ordinary? to ask such questions is not to excuse what polanski did or to suggest that "rape" is an under-reported crime.

    Parent
    great point (none / 0) (#171)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 12:12:07 AM EST
    I mean we as a society are usually known for our amazing benevolence and understanding towards sexual predators- especially those who prey on children.

    Parent
    Oh for heaven's sake (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:52:51 PM EST
    even by the evidence cited in Polanski's own motion, "getting him" amounted to giving him a whopping 90 days of jail time instead of probation.  Even Polanski doesn't claim he was afraid of additional, speculative consequences.

    You're making up justifications for his behavior that the man himself hasn't asserted.

    Parent

    Apparently the judge told the DDA and (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:16:23 PM EST
    defense attorney what the judge planned to do.  Doesn't sound like Polanski was present.  I gather Polanski's counsel told him and Polanski decided to skip the next court hrg.   One article I just read said defense counsel then went to France to try and persuade Polanski to surrender to the court's jurisdiction for sentencing but Polanski wouldn't.  Purportedly because he didn't want TV at the sentencing hrg.  

    Parent
    Yeah. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:10:53 PM EST
    Polanski keeps on coming across as a coward to me.   Bernie Madoff had gonadal fortitude.  Polanski?  Gonadal insufficiency.

    Parent
    The point is (none / 0) (#42)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:31:47 PM EST
    He's had 30 years after a plea deal that no regular child rapist would ever have gotten. He got cold feet because of something he heard migh happen.  Fine.

    Now he has a chance to get a fair shake in front of the US justice system, with lots of sympathy on his side, but he is refusing to avail himself of that justice system, except when it benefits him.

    Parent

    as a matter of "fact" (none / 0) (#44)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:35:02 PM EST
    as I understand it, what happened to him was absolutely standard procedure in such cases right up until the time the Judge said he would not accept the recommendation of the people "observing" him in the nut house and go for the publicity.

    so your framing is a little off.

    Parent

    Thats where the... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:29:33 PM EST
    bs detector comes into play...the facts left out.

    The same bias and incomplete reporting can be found in books, ancient scrolls, oral histories...no form of media is immune.  If bias is disqualification ya can't go on anything but your own fact-finding investigation, and even then your own convictions and bias come into play, conciously of subconciously.

    Parent

    I, being the only one who has (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:33:00 PM EST
    actually SEEN this documentary before offering their opinion, am still waiting to hear what "facts" were omitted.

    Parent
    OK, (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:10:10 PM EST
    The act of s*d*my was completely glossed-over in the documentary.

    In "Wanted and Desired," Zenovich casts Polanski, whose face repeatedly fills the screen with a Byronic luminosity, as a tragic figure, a child survivor of the Holocaust haunted by the murder of his wife, the actress Sharon Tate, at the hands of the Manson family. His friends are uniformly supportive: "This is somebody who could not be a rapist!" one exclaims.

    [Major Snip}

    It's a drag to include a scene of an*l rape of a 13-year-old in your moody documentary about such a Byronic figure, but it's also fairly relevant.

    (PS: I'm not sure why my original response to capn's comment was deleted, but hopefully this one is toned-down enough to make the point and not trigger censure. I apologize for whatever was wrong with my first comment.)

    Parent
    I actually saw the first one (none / 0) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:24:45 PM EST
    I would be interested is where that came from and who wrote it.
    fwiw I could quote and equal number of reviews that are glowing and full of praise.

    Parent
    btw (none / 0) (#113)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:25:35 PM EST
    I dont recall anything being "glossed over"
    but I plan to watch it again this evening or tomorrow.

    Parent
    You asked a question, I answered it. (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:46:37 PM EST
    You may read the review on Salon.

    Again, not everyone agrees with your opinion that the doc is fair and balanced.

    It happens.

    Parent

    accepted (none / 0) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:58:32 PM EST
    which makes me more curious to hear Jeralyns opinion.

    btw
    on Rotten Tomatoes it has 88%.  thats pretty high.
    38 positive reviews 5 negative.  so Im pretty comfortable with my view.

    Parent

    Would you like your fate in a court of (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:15:44 PM EST
    law to hinge on a "documentary" film?  

    Parent
    I am puzzled by this comment (none / 0) (#141)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:20:29 PM EST
    no earthly idea what you are talking about.
    but thats fine.  I am puzzled by a lot being said in this thread.

    and I am going home now so argue nicely among yourselves.


    Parent

    Is it not you who advances the documentary (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:27:11 PM EST
    as proof Polanski was mistreated by the judicial system?

    Parent
    cant resist (none / 0) (#128)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:00:09 PM EST
    posting the blurb from the very first review on the list.

    Though Marina Zenovich's film deals with the notorious case of the film director who pleaded guilty to having sex with a 13-year-old, the film's real subject is the California legal system turned upside down by celebrity and media pressure.

    which sounds a lot like exactly what I have been saying.

    Parent

    "who pleaded guilty to having sex" (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:06:20 PM EST
    ok well that is technically true ...but puts Polanski here in a good light - and it's sad to consider that "having sex with a 13-year old" is a good light to be standing in.

    Parent
    how exactly (none / 0) (#133)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:09:19 PM EST
    does that do that again?

    Parent
    I mean (none / 0) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:11:11 PM EST
    how does saying he plead guilty blah blah put him in a good light.

    I dont get that.


    Parent

    sex with a minor (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:14:09 PM EST
    sounds better than the original charges:

    rape by use of drugs, perversion, sodomy, lewd and lascivious act upon a child under 14, and furnishing a controlled substance (methaqualone) to a minor.

    which I think are under little dispute, especially by those who feel compelled to use the victim's word to boost their case that Polanski be left alone.

    Parent

    Couldn't agree more. (none / 0) (#135)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:12:23 PM EST
    His celebrity got him off with only 90 days for date-raping a 13 y/o.

    Parent
    False again (none / 0) (#175)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 01:55:09 AM EST
    Why don't you listen to the statement of the psychiatrist appointed by the court to determine if he was a sex offender -- or the reports on the findings of the probation department. The probation department recommended probation and no jail. It had nothing to do with his celebrity.

    Parent
    I'm not going to argue with you. (none / 0) (#178)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 03:08:13 AM EST
    I do not believe his celebrity had no effect on his sojourn through LA's criminal justice system.

    For good or for bad, from what I've seen, having made my living in the industry for almost 20 years now, celebrity always has an effect, one way or the other.

    For example, if he had had no celebrity, his victim would almost assuredly not have been so willing to accept his plea bargain, which she did accept only to avoid the publicity that was due to his celebrity.

    If he had no celebrity he would almost assuredly have been tried on all six counts, and I think we both know that the outcome would have been much worse for him. And rightly so.

    The court had multiple sentencing options ranging from an indeterminate commitment to a state hospital for psych treatment to 50 years in prison.

    Polanski went to a prison psych ward for 42 days - which he did after the 90-day delay the courts gave him so he could work on a movie in Tahiti - before he bailed on his bail.

    I tend to think if his name was Joe Schmoe and he was a lowly transpo driver instead of a famous - tragically famous, even - movie director, he would not have been so lucky.

    You certainly do not have to agree.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#180)
    by jnicola on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:15:54 AM EST
    A ten minute search throws back the following cases in California which share similarities with the Polanski case and where the defendants do not seem to me to have been significantly worse treated, despite their lack of celebrity.

    Here's a guy who was convicted of statutory rape under CPC 261.5 (one count), lewd and lascivicious conduct with a minor using threats of force under CPC 288a(b)(1) (four counts), and lewd and lascivicious conduct with a dependent minor using threats of force under CPC 288a(b)(2) (two counts). He got six months County time and probation.

    Here's someone who was convicted of statutory rape under CPC 261.5 and lewd conduct with a dependent minor using threats of force under CPC 288(b)(2). He got five years probation.

    This chap started his recorded criminal career in April 1989, when he was convicted of possession of a narcotic substance for sale. In November 1989, he was convicted of receiving stolen property. In May 1990, he was convicted of carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle.  In March 1993, he was convicted of misdemeanor battery.  In April 1994, he was convicted of committing battery causing serious bodily injury. In August 1994, he was convicted of taking a vehicle without the owner's consent. In April 1995, he was again convicted of misdemeanor battery, sentenced to 75 days in jail, and placed on probation. With all of that on his record - in 1995, he was convicted of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor under CPC 261.5, given 15 days in jail, and placed on probation.

    Another one, who was accused of drugging and raping his sister, was charged with rape by use of a controlled substance (CPC 261(a)(3)), incest (CPC 285), transporting a controlled substance (HSC 11379(a)), committing a controlled substance violation through use of a minor (HSC 11380(a)), unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor (CPC 261.5 (c)), use of a controlled substance (HSC 11550 (a)), indecent exposure (CPC 314(1)), and two counts of committing degrading, immoral, or vicious practices in the presence of children (CPC 273 (g)). He agreed to plead guilty to the incest charge and was given three years probation.


    This guy
    molested one child and raped another. He was charged with unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor more than 10 years youger (CPC 261.5(c), rape by a foreign object (CPC 289(h)), misdemeanor child molestation (CPC 647.6(a)]) and lewd act on a child (CPC 288(a)) and convicted on all counts. His sentence was 1 year local time and 5 years probation, despite having fought all counts instead of pleading, and despite having been convicted on all counts.

    All of these cases are far more recent than Polanski's, and for better or worse, statutory rape was treated less seriously then, particuarly of 'bad girls'. I don't think time served, at 42 days, was an outlandish sentence given the circumstances of the time.

    Parent

    And I'm sure there are many cases, (none / 0) (#181)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 11:38:39 AM EST
    also similar to Polanski's, in which the defendents' sentences were more onerous, so what does that prove?

    That aside, your comment does not address my point:

    if he had had no celebrity, his victim would almost assuredly not have been so willing to accept his plea bargain, which she did accept only to avoid the publicity that was due to his celebrity.
    So, because of his celebrity, he gets 6 indictments pled down to one.

    It's all opinion, you are certainly free to have your own.

    Parent

    Misuse of psychiatry here (none / 0) (#183)
    by diogenes on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 09:24:52 PM EST
    1.  If he was a sex offender, then he needed prison to contain him.
    2.  If he was NOT a sex offender, then he CHOSE to drug/rape a thirteen year old on the strength of some sort of belief that he is above the moral and legal standards that apply to ordinary people.  People like this need prison for deterrence.  If he hadn't been arrested, don't you think that he would have hot-tubbed another thirteen year old at a Hollywood party the following month?


    Parent
    I would say (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:42:45 PM EST
    see it BEFORE having an opinion but thats just me

    Parent
    I'd say (5.00 / 4) (#115)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:38:29 PM EST
    Do your own extensive research before seeing it so you can spend a fair portion of it going

    "Huh?  What about this?  Hey, nice cherry picking of data!  Oh, listen to the dramatic music!  Check out that great mood lighting!".

    Documentaries are rarely exhaustive investigations of all the facts.  That would put people to sleep!  Instead, they are about as real as reality shows.  There's always a narrative and the facts that support the narrative are given prominence and facts that don't are downplayed.

    Parent

    And the film maker expressly stated not (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:59:25 PM EST
    intent to delve into facts of underlying crime.

    Parent
    One of the things that bugs me (none / 0) (#16)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:26:01 PM EST
    about all of this is the constant repetition of "the victim publicly forgave him in 1997."

    Well, what if her position was that he should be publicly castrated, would her position be so important then?

    PS: Anyone have a link to her actual quote from that 1997 People Mag interview where she apparently "forgave" Polanski?

    All I can find are references to it, not the actual interview/quote itself...

    In my civilian opinion (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:53:17 PM EST
    I'm glad that the victim has done what she needs to do to deal with the incident.  It HAS been thirty years, and was almost twenty years at the time of that article.  

    But the legal system is about the law and primarily the wishes of the State, so the wishes of the victim should be heard, but the State is under no obligation to be swayed by them.

    Parent

    Jeralyn has posted the (none / 0) (#24)
    by Faust on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:43:00 PM EST
    statment that she has filed asking that the entire thing be dismissed.

    Here

    As far as I'm concerned that seals the deal. I view these crimes from a consequentialist perspective. As for your question: if she wanted him prosecuted would that matter? Yes. It would to me.

    Parent

    This whole take on putting (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by coast on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:01:51 PM EST
    emphasis on what the victim thinks is puzzling to me.  Do you think the same about batterers whose victims tell police they don't want to press charges or have thier batterer taken to jail.  Are the police wrong for taking these men away in cuffs?

    Parent
    Please read the change of plea (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:45:58 PM EST
    transcript and attachments.  The victim's attorney urged the court to accept the change of plea to violation of PC 261.5 to protect the girl's privacy, as the press had not revealed her identity.  

    Parent
    I'm not clear what that has to do with what (none / 0) (#54)
    by Faust on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:43:49 PM EST
    is happening at present. Are you saying that she has changed her mind, or are you talking about the original case? My understanding is that her current position is that she wants it dropped. I'm only interested in what is happening right now. What happened in the past seems pretty much a disaster no matter what angle I look at it from.

    Parent
    Strictly the past. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:03:17 PM EST
    The plea agreement was reached with the consent of the mother (parents?) in order to protect her daughter's privacy and spare her the trauma of a public trial.  I wonder if her parents were given the impression that Polanski's punishment was to be a psych eval, probation and possible deportation.  I don't understand the concept of how probation applies to someone who spends time abroad.  Unsupervised probation?  Don't get caught again?

    I doubt the justice system would make more sense even if I knew more about it.

    Parent

    her letter is attached to the motion to dismiss (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:02:48 PM EST
    At p. 109. She advocates for Polanski

    Parent
    I am talking about the 1997 People Magazine interview with her that your quote:
    The victim in the case, Samantha Geimer, has long publicly identified herself and expressed forgiveness of Mr. Polanski
    is in reference to.

    Try google, all the 10's of thousands of hits that reference her "long ago public forgiveness" are to that 1997 article.

    Parent

    speaking only for me (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:30:59 PM EST
    and I dont think I have said this, who cares.
    her opinion is not the point as interesting as it is.
    the point is what happened to him in the legal system.


    Parent
    Then don't respond to my question. (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:43:55 PM EST
    You are not obliged to be interested in what interests me.

    Parent
    actually (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:56:56 PM EST
    it may have been a reply to your comment but is was a response to the "she forgave him" crap.

    Parent
    The People interview (none / 0) (#59)
    by jnicola on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:50:02 PM EST
    doesn't seem to be on the web, but here's a more recent one where she says 'I forgive him. It was a long time ago. It's been a long hard road for both of us, so I have no hard feelings.'

    Parent
    Thank you. (none / 0) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:05:42 PM EST
    that quote came from the NY Times (none / 0) (#95)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:39:36 PM EST
    and if you won't read her 1997 letter that I provided the link to, then I can't help you.

    Parent
    We are not communicating well. (none / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:04:16 PM EST
    It happens.

    Parent
    Page 16 (none / 0) (#22)
    by racymind on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:42:34 PM EST
    On page 16 of the plea colloquy, the Judge advised Polanski that the plea deal was not binding on him and he would not make a decision until he had read the probation report, and that if he decided not to go along with the plea agreement, Polanski would be allowed to withdraw his plea

    To make sure I got it... if the judge stays with the reduced charges in Polanski's plea, he can vary the sentencing without allowing Polanski the chance to withdraw his plea?  I mean, it is bad form, and lying to the defendant, but that is how I read it.

    I don't see that the judge is required to allow a plea withdrawal as long as the reduced charges stay the same. (Yes, it is lying and undermines the entire plea bargain process upon which we depend).

    Maybe I read it wrong.

    I don't buy it, (none / 0) (#37)
    by bocajeff on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:24:04 PM EST
    I think this is a prime case where lawyers and lay people start to diverge.

    Nobody is disputing that he had sex with a 13 year old. Nobody is disputing that there were drugs and alcohol involved. To most of us this is where the story ends. Rape, statutory rape, the culmination of forbidden love,...

    Everything else is for the lawyers to screw up or fix. Don't care either way. Polanski is a tragic and f**d up individual one way or the other.

    I do know that if I went out and had sex with a 13 year old girl that I would be held accountable...as I would if I fled...

    Seriously with all of the focus on the judge (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:54:52 PM EST
    supposedly being overzealous and unethical for wanting Polanski to serve more than a month and half for raping a 6th grader people seem to be overlooking the simple fact that even Polanski admits (in his autobiography- forget the plea) to having sex with a 6th grader as a 44 year old- if he was a priest or a School Teacher or her Softball coach no one would be coming to his defense arguing that she "wasn't a virgin" , etc.  

    Parent
    Well played... (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by bocajeff on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:15:00 PM EST
    For a site that, at least politically, is about the less fortunate in our society there does seem to be a lot of support for a man who raped a young girl. I'm sorry, had sex with...

    Parent
    Polanski... (none / 0) (#85)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:20:42 PM EST
    can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care...what I do care about is a criminal justice system run amok.  Sick f*cks who rape women and children have been here since the dawn of man, and will be here till the end of time...very sad but very true.  otoh, there is hope for our infernal machine of a justice system...we created it, unlike the natural world and all its sickness and sorrow.

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#91)
    by bocajeff on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:30:00 PM EST
    But one can argue far better cases as evidence of a judicial system run amok rather than taking a child rapist as their poster boy...

    Parent
    For sure... (none / 0) (#94)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:37:10 PM EST
    there are far better examples, we've been discussing them here for years...but this is the example in the news right now...an infernal machine thats gotta get its man at any price.  The victim don't matter, circumstances don't matter...only serving the machine matters.  It's crazy...We're crazy.

    Parent
    Pray tell (none / 0) (#97)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:40:48 PM EST
    What is it in this case where the justice system "ran amok"? Where the judge thought about not accepting the outrageous plea deal in place (which judges do every day, by the way) and sending Polanski back for another 48 days of psych eval? (Oh! The horror!)

    See, I hold the view (probably not too popular around here) that men who rape (especially little girls) should be castrated, and not chemcially, either, so I don't see where 48 days in a place being evaluated is as bad a deal.  

    "Ohh!  They might hurt him in prison!" some say.  Well, not condoning violence in prison, but a)people who commit crimes should think of that before they commit them, and b) he would be separated from the general population due to his age, status, fame, and oh yes, because he's a rapist.

    Parent

    And your punishment... (none / 0) (#102)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:01:02 PM EST
    ...for women who commit statutory rape would be what?  

    Parent
    Something similar (none / 0) (#105)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    So compulsory sterilization... (none / 0) (#122)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:51:19 PM EST
    ...for everyone without regard to the circumstances of their crime?

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#131)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:06:54 PM EST
    Not sterlization - something much harsher.

    But I wonder what kinds of circumstances would mitigate a brutal and violent rape?  Did a rapist trip over something and fall on top of an unwilling participant?

    Parent

    It's a simple question really. (none / 0) (#163)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 08:14:46 PM EST
    Since you advocate for a punishment that you know is could be taken as offensive/beyond the pale (i.e., "not too popular") that speaks to more than the Polanski case...  

    I hold the view (probably not too popular around here) that men who rape (especially little girls) should be castrated, and not chemcially, either, so I don't see where 48 days in a place being evaluated is as bad a deal.

    ...in a gender specific, one-size-fits-all, no grey area punishment, I simply inquired what your punishment for a female would be.  

    Your avoidance of the question makes it appears that you are incapable of answering it.  

    Interesting.

    Parent

    Oh, and by the way (none / 0) (#107)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:09:01 PM EST
    It wasn't just "statutory rape" - this was no 20year old who thought he was with an 18 year old, this was a 44 year old man who clearly knew he was drugging and forcing a 13 year girl to have sex.  It was out and out rape (and assualt, and battery, etc).

    Parent
    he's a defendant just like (none / 0) (#98)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:41:21 PM EST
    other defendants. Wealth and prominence have nothing to do with it. This site is concerned with the rights of all defendants whatever their station in life.

    Parent
    agreed, (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by bocajeff on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:50:13 PM EST
    but he already admitted to the crime of having sex with a minor (we call it rape). We can split hairs all day long but at the end of the day you have a man who had sex with a drugged child...and then fled because of the abuse of the system...

    Parent
    But (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:56:58 PM EST
    don't defendants forfeit some of those rights when they flee the jursidiction?

    And, really? You honestly think that his wealth and prominence had nothing to do with getting a 42 day stay in a psych ward, and being allowed to finish a movie?

    Parent

    Given the plea was to PC 261.5, whether (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:05:50 PM EST
    the victim was forced to have sexual intercourse or not is irrelevant.  Given the sentencing court was limited to considering only the facts supporting the PC 261.5 count, it doesn't surprise me Polansky got such limited time in custody.  

    Parent
    How about the fact (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:09:15 PM EST
    he bargained his way down to that from the other 5 or 6 counts?  Is that standard practice in California?

    Parent
    I think he lucked out the prosecutor who (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:25:47 PM EST
    helped draft the search warrants and was present when one of the warrants was executed was taken off the case.  This is the DDA who ex parte-d the sentencing judge after the plea bargain was reached.  That DDA would never have agreed to what the subsequent assigned DDA did.  Or maybe he would have because of the request of the victim's attorney.  Who knows.  

    Parent
    yeah (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:31:46 PM EST
    I think people commenting on this case are on at least two separate pages - 1, on how Polanski was treated after he plead guilty to sex with a minor, and 2, how on earth Polanski was able to get all those other charges dismissed as part of his plea bargain.  Because the deal Polanski got seems just as f*cked up if your issue is how f*cked up our criminal justice system can be.

    Parent
    If you read the transcript of the interview (none / 0) (#146)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:38:10 PM EST
    by the film makers of the DDA who issued the case, he talks about how Santa Monica gets more high profile, big publicity cases than other divisions of DA's office in LA County.  And a trial attorney in the DA's office, which is most DDAs, wants to get those cases for notoriety but not muck them up for adverse pubicity and poor reflection on elected DA. Lots of support for Polanski--see letters to probation dept. by Mia Farrow et al.  Hate to think politics reared its ugly head but I think it did.  Plus the victim's admission she had sex prior to this incident.  Plus he sd. she sd. as to whether she consented or repeatedly sd. "no."  All the sex-related charges except PC 261.5 required convincing a unanimous jury beyond a reasonable doubt the victim did NOT consent.  

    Parent
    Sounds like (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:51:52 PM EST
    the political and cultural climate really worked out in Polanski's favor, not the opposite.

    Parent
    For sure.. (none / 0) (#151)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:16:30 PM EST
    back then he got special favors, now he's getting special disfavor.

    Neither is right, but politics infects everything I guess..when it infects the justice system its particularly stomach turning...its why we gotta be so careful, limit power, and always err on the side of liberty, and dare I say, leniency.

    My rant aside...rape, murder, molestation...those are the crimes I'd keep a fraction of our prisons around for.  Polanski shoulda done time back in the day, hard to argue with that.  I just don't see the point now except a dangrously blind adherence to the law out of a so-called respect it does not deserve.

    Parent

    All the man had to do was show up for (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:39:51 PM EST
    initial sentencing hearing.  Is that so hard?  

    Parent
    I guess he panicked.... (none / 0) (#154)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:45:03 PM EST
    and from what I see when I look down the halls of justice I can't say I blame him there, even if you are rich/famous/connected.

    Parent
    What's the point? (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:47:59 PM EST
    The point is, justice has not been served.  It was not Polanksi's right to just take off and not face his sentence - no matter how scared he was of prison, or what he thought the judge might do.  If he was sentenced, he should have availed himself of the appeals process.

    As Steve M and others have so eloquently pointed out, he and his lawyers are using the jurisdiction of California to argue that he shouldn't have to face his crimes, but he doesn't want to submit to the jurisdiction when it doesn't favor him.  

    He can't have it both ways.

    Parent

    How often is justice served anywhere, ever? (none / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:55:11 PM EST
    Sh*t get a handful of people to agree on what justice is in any old scenario.

    I hear ya on the court sh*t, once he left Dodge he shoulda never looked back...however I don't think we should have him extradited, let the Swiss have him...I can't call this justice, just another joke.

    Parent

    It's also about (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:59:11 PM EST
    Upholding principles which we hold near and dear in this country which say that if you commit a crime, you must submit yourself to the justice system and face the consequences. On a bigger picture, there's also the whole principle of justice for the people of California - they have been trying to send a message that just becauseyou are rich and famous, you should not get away with doing horrible things and expect to skate away with no recriminations.

    Parent
    I really, REALLY (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by lilburro on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 08:02:45 AM EST
    don't think an environment where child rape is not taken seriously and charges of promiscuity could make up the defense in a rape case is equivalent to the "special disfavor" Polanski is receiving now, to wit, being brought in on an outstanding warrant.


    Parent
    At the time, public awareness re (none / 0) (#140)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:19:18 PM EST
    sexual abuse of minors was not as heightened as it has become since then.  

    Parent
    Tell me this (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:54:14 PM EST
    how can the probation report consider facts such as the victim's sexual history, et al., if the only matters at issue are the facts which underlie the statutory rape charge?  Does the PO get to consider additional mitigating, but not aggravating, facts?

    Parent
    One example of Polanski winning (none / 0) (#155)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:47:19 PM EST
    over the PO.  Another example:  why didn't mom keep better track of her underage daughter?  Oh, and those mags re mj.  

    Parent
    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    where was John Yoo's presumption of innocence, I mean he's basically been accused of being the mastermind of a torture regime but I don't recall people jumping to assume that he had rights and should have been presumed innocent, instead I saw people weighing the facts and arguing for trial and imprisonmnet. Simply put how is arguing for Polanski to face the same- trial on the charges against him assuming he is able to vacate his guilty plea, so much worse?

    Parent
    Jeralyn, despite my best efforts I have (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:24:10 PM EST
    not located the probation report, which, at this late date, should not be available to the public through the court or probation office.  But the defense motion to dismiss quotes portions of the report and there are many many media references to parts of the report.  Have you seen the entire report?  Link?  Thank you.

    The probation report (none / 0) (#92)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:30:07 PM EST
    can be found at pp. 70-98 of Polanski's motion to dismiss, linked yesterday by Jeralyn.

    Parent
    Thank you. (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:33:21 PM EST
    PO notes in detail (none / 0) (#106)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:07:53 PM EST
    Mr. Polanski's background, his "solicitude" for the victim by inquiring after the fact if she was on birth control pills, the laxity of the victim's mom, and the previous sexual experience of the victim. Written reports of the two court-ordered psychiatrists had not yet been received by PO at time of probation report, although the PO interviewed by phone the MD's whose report he hadn't received.   Interesting the probation report doesn't, as I recall, mention defendant was in custody of state corrections dept. while he underwent the psychiatiric evaluation as possible MDSO.  

    Parent
    solicitude? (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:19:09 PM EST
    Making sure he didn't end up with a paternity suit was solicitude?

    Parent
    I think Polanski "snowed" the PO, (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:34:35 PM EST
    as we used to say!

    Parent
    Hey he was kind enough to ask (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:43:56 PM EST
    if she was on the Pill before going in the "back way" against her stated objections that's got to count for something.

    Parent
    Kind of reflective (none / 0) (#120)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:44:23 PM EST
    of the prevailing mores of a bygone era regarding rape in general, frankly.  Rape and domestic violence are taken very seriously today but 'twasn't always that way.

    Parent
    Don't necessarily disagree with you (none / 0) (#160)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 07:15:30 PM EST
    but found it interesting that CA had laws against sex with underaged girls for quite a long time.

    Some news sources have reported that at the time of Polanski's crime, the age of consent was either 14 or 16. This is incorrect. California's first penal code in 1850 proscribed sex with girls under the age of 10. The age of consent was raised to 14 in 1889, to 16 in 1897, and finally to 18 in 1913, where it has remained since that time. link


    Parent
    The problem is, if the "perp" is (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 07:26:12 PM EST
    gainfully employed, and a Caucasian male, he frequently persuades the court it is very important he keep his job to support his family, which frequently includes the victim.  

    Parent
    That is disgusting. (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 07:43:26 PM EST
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 09:52:45 PM EST
    standard rape laws have been on the books for a long time, with the exception of marital rape (which is a story in itself, of course).  But as I'm sure you know, the prevailing sentiment right up until recent times was that arguments like "she had a slutty past" or "she didn't resist to the utmost, she probably wanted it" were accepted quite often in practice.  The laws were there but society wasn't really enforcing them.

    Parent
    That's because the "victim" (none / 0) (#177)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 02:50:58 AM EST
    was perceived to be the person who had the most respectability and credibility.  IOW - the guy everyone knew, who had a steady job, went to church and played poker with the guys was Somebody, a valuable member of society.  The victim?  An expendable tart, a bratty child.  (Of course, if the accused was a bum or a drifter - get out the pitchforks!)

    A jury of peers often meant the peers of the accused, not the peers of the victims, assuming that it even went that far.

    Parent

    Ick (none / 0) (#100)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:52:27 PM EST
    No matter how you slice it, Polanski served 42 days for the deliberate rape of a thirteen year old.

    Correct me if I'm wrong - but the stories I have read say that he took the young woman to Jack Nicholson's home under the pretext of a photo shoot, and proceeded to drug her before he violated her. It was not a crime of passion. It was premeditated.

    The judge may have reneged on a plea deal.
    The victim may not want any part of a court case.

    But I can't help be put off by seeing Polanski described as a director and his films being mentioned in the context of articles being written about this case. He did what he did. He paid no price. I have no sympathy for him.

    Strange justice indeed (none / 0) (#117)
    by caramel on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:42:14 PM EST
    There are really two different issues at stake. The conditions of his arrest are totally outrageous and most likely won't hold under current European law. However, talent and fame cannot place him above the law. He wasn't a teenage kid when he raped a 13-year old girl, he was 45 years old and he should answer for his crime in a court of law. That being said, look what happened to Michael Jackson... The whole thing is about politics between Switzerland and the US, it has very little to do with justice. The man has been traveling from France to his house in Switzerland for years and it's not like the warrant for his arrest was issued last week. It's very weird that he was arrested almost as Suzan Atkins died in prison for the murder of his pregnant wife.

    State Reponse to Motion? (none / 0) (#164)
    by JDB on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 08:16:51 PM EST
    Jeralyn, do you have a copy of the state's response to Polanski's motion to dismiss?  Did they address the factual allegations about the judge/DA, or did they just stand behind the "he can't ask for dismissal until he comes back to Cali" argument?

    Thanks!

    it's here (none / 0) (#182)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:35:13 PM EST
    starting on page 7. The first 6 pages recite grand jury testimony never tested by cross-examination,  proven in court or admitted or pleaded to by Polanski. I don't want them here. The discussion of the legal issues begins on p. 7.

    Parent
    AP (none / 0) (#168)
    by coast on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 10:25:07 PM EST
    Do they normally put warnings on released court documents?  Don't think I've seen that before.

    That document is particurly enlightening (none / 0) (#170)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 11:14:50 PM EST
    Exactly how the Parole Officer could call Polanski's actions "solicitude" for the victim by inquiring after the fact if she was on birth control pills after reviewing his response after she told him she was not is beyond me.