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The South Ossetia Conflict: Georgia Started It

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 03:58:03 PM EST
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This news should surprise no one who regularly reads this blog:

"In the Mission´s view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008. None of the explanations given by the Georgian authorities in order to provide some form of legal justification for the attack lend it a valid explanation. In particular, there was no massive Russian military invasion under way[.]"

Yet, while everyone is remembering how crazy McCain and the neocons were, no one wants to remember that Joe Biden was insane too.

Speaking for me only

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    The South Ossetia Conflict: Georgia Started It | 26 comments (26 topical)

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    Sam Nunn, amazingly (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:12:47 PM EST
    was not insane.

    That sure made me (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:22:18 AM EST
    question my own judgment on this, and BTD's.  But stopped clock and all that, I guess.

    Parent
    There are (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Zorba on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:35:01 PM EST
    no angels in this.  Georgia is not on the side of the angels, and neither is Russia.  Who suffers?  The civilians on the ground, on both sides.

    My son's alibi: (none / 0) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:36:05 PM EST
    "Mom, she hit me back first".  

    Wondering if this makes sense, but I always think of that when trying to sort out such global skirmishes.  

    Parent

    The double standard (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by aeguy on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:51:16 PM EST
    used by foreign policy hawks. Let's assume that it was indeed Russia that triggered the conflict. How dare Russia send troops across their border using the pretext of national security? The United States would never send troops to another country on the basis of national security. Never.

    No public statement by Valery (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:03:55 PM EST
    Gergiev--yet.  He was all over this in Edinburgh last summer.  

    God.....who cares?????? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:22:58 PM EST
    Are the pundits really going to go here????  I know its news but does it have to be?  It isn't as if I didn't already know this.

    Let's wait and see if Ezra picks this up! (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:25:25 PM EST


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    Will he pummel it to death? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:50:49 PM EST
    My husband hoped to build an entire second lucrative career out of identifying vehicles properly in the Georgia conflict if NATO got involved :)  I could get diamonds and stuff if stupid people can't get beyond it :)

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    Is Georgia still likely to get into NATO? (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:30:38 PM EST


    No (none / 0) (#18)
    by AlkalineDave on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:45:59 PM EST
    definitely not anytime soon.  Russia's incursion (yes Georgia started it) ensured that.

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    Mission? (none / 0) (#7)
    by koshembos on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:46:11 PM EST
    I doubt any or the mission have an objective opinion. These decisions are political and carry absolutely no moral weight. It's time to ignore all such missions, judges, committees and commissions (the 9/11 one included) whose task is distorted politically.

    Sam Nunn the guy who thinks that the US will collapse if gays will serve in the military; I thought he died in 1822.

    I'm trying to remember (none / 0) (#9)
    by Maryb2004 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:01:54 PM EST
    Joe Biden's insanity.  But your link is not helping me?  

    Here's a quote (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:31:19 PM EST
    "I left the country convinced that Russia's invasion of Georgia may be the one of the most significant event to occur in Europe since the end of communism. The claims of Georgian atrocities that provided the pretext for Russia's invasion are rapidly being disproved by international observers, and the continuing presence of Russian forces in the country has severe implications for the broader region. The war that began in Georgia is no longer about that country alone. It has become a question of whether and how the West will stand up for the rights of free people throughout the region,"  

    Biden - August 2008

    Parent

    God No (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:38:59 PM EST
    Bidenisms...they're so long

    I left the country convinced that Russia's invasion of Georgia may be the one of the most significant event to occur in Europe since the end of communism

    Tracyism

    Or Not


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    Georgia can (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:25:44 PM EST
    do no wrong because they are an ultimate good guy how ever you come up with to compare them to Russia.

    Parent
    Much more helpful (none / 0) (#12)
    by Maryb2004 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:29:56 PM EST
    than BTD's link.  Thanks.

    Parent
    I think he was (none / 0) (#25)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:24:16 AM EST
    also running around saying it was going to be a new "cold war" only worse, wasn't he?  I remember him being very, very alarmist about it.

    Parent
    Yes, he did (none / 0) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 07:14:41 AM EST
    I forgot about that but he did make that prediction too.

    Parent
    In the interest of clarity for your commenters (none / 0) (#15)
    by Maryb2004 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:36:36 PM EST
    I'll restate my comment.

    Your link appears to be wrong because it doesn't mention Biden anywhere as far as I can see.

    Parent

    You are right (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:38:50 PM EST
    I mean this link.

    Parent
    Biden (none / 0) (#10)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:25:16 PM EST
    was, and is, insane.
    I remember.
    I remember him going around supporting the invasion of Iraq in that sneaky superior way he has.
    I was appalled when Obama chose him as a running mate.

    What happened in Georgia (none / 0) (#19)
    by AlkalineDave on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:49:58 PM EST
    was a direct result of Russian policy arguably starting with Clinton but definitely with Bush.  Choosing sides in Kosovo, pushing defense missiles on Poland, and quickly trying to slip more and more old Russian satellites into NATO and the EU didn't win us Russian sympathies.  And yes, missile defense was pushed on Poland.  

    Blame the US (none / 0) (#21)
    by maddog on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 08:51:20 PM EST
    So Russia invades Georgia and it is the US' fault.  Come again?  So the US and Europe want to allow small countries into NATO.  And we shouldn't have done this because?  I guess we shouldn't have even started NATO because it was a threat to Russia?  Is that what you are saying?

    You're losing me here on how it was the US' fault that Russia invaded Georgia.  If you are going to pull our involvement in Kosovo, I believe GW was still the governor of Texas.  In any event how does Kosovo connect to Russia invading Georgia?

    You sound like our current President.  If it happened it must have been the US' fault and we are sorry.

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 09:26:53 PM EST
    our implicit promise to defend Georgia couldn't have had ANYTHING to do with Georgia's decision to provoke Russia.

    I'm sure they would have been just as eager to provoke a much larger and more powerful country if they believed they were all alone.  No connection whatsoever.

    Parent

    I'll (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by AlkalineDave on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:19:30 AM EST
    link you some very good commentary on the Russia/Georgia issue if you want to read it.  After the Cold War, U.S. foreign policy towards Russia caused them to become isolated.  We ensured them we were their friends while admitting all their satellites piecemeal into NATO.  Russia's influence was beat down, while it became increasingly surrounded by NATO.  Then we pushed interceptor missiles into Poland, right on Russia's doorstep.  oh by the way, these missiles come with radar detection that can track a vast amount of Russian airspace.  The missiles were never about Iran.  Poland knew it, we knew it, and Russia definitely knew it.  Am I saying a different foreign policy approach towards Russia could have prevented Georgian provocation and Russian reaction?  Most definitely. Here's a start:
    http://www.russiablog.org/2008/08/war_in_georgia_mis-reading_ossetia.php
    George Friedman can come out with some crazy stuff sometimes, but this has some good points
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-08-10-georgia_N.htm?csp=34
    The other Friedman
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/opinion/20friedman.html?_r=1

    It's not a blame America first mentality to assess what we might have done differently in foreign policy.  Does that mean we forced Russia into anything?  No.

    In answer to your question about admitting smaller countries into NATO, we definitely should not do it when it is not in our or NATO's best interest.  

    You're not trying to argue any specific point by suggesting I am saying we should have never started NATO.  NATO was quite successful on keeping down the USSR.  Russia is not the USSR.  We won the Cold War, and equating Russia as the USSR post Cold War has gotten us into bad foreign policy.

    I was not talking about Kosovo in a Clinton era war setting.  I am referring to Kosovo's declaration of autonomy which the U.S. foreign policy position under President Bush was one of approval and recognition.  This did infuriate Russia and set a precedent involving breakaway regions in Europe.

    Finally,  I don't see how theorizing about how U.S. foreign policy might have been counterproductive to U.S. interests is wrong.

    Parent

    The South Ossetia Conflict: Georgia Started It | 26 comments (26 topical)

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