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Can Kirk Vote Until New MA Senator Is Seated?

Personally, I do not see Massachusetts delaying the seating of its new Senator if Tuesday night's result is not disputed, but this GOP argument is ridiculous:

Appointed Senator Paul Kirk will lose his vote in the Senate after Tuesday’s election in Massachusetts of a new senator and cannot be the 60th vote for Democratic health care legislation, according to Republican attorneys. [. . .] {I]n the days after the election, it is Kirk’s status that matters, not Brown’s. Massachusetts law says that an appointed senator remains in office “until election and qualification of the person duly elected to fill the vacancy.” [. . .] [B]ased on Massachusetts law, Senate precedent, and the U.S. Constitution, Republican attorneys said Kirk will no longer be a senator after election day, period. [. . .] “Qualification” does not require state “certification,” the lawyers said.

Of course qualification depends on certification of being the winner of the election. Brown would not be the winner of the election until he is certified as the winner of the election. As I said, I do not expect that there will be a delay in certifying and seating Brown if he is a clear winner Tuesday night, but he does not officially win until the election is certified.

Speaking for me only

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    Republicans killed health care (none / 0) (#1)
    by NealB on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 09:24:37 AM EST
    last summer. It will be much better at this point if Brown wins on Tuesday so Republicans, and Republicans alone, will be on the record as having killed health care.

    "Not a single Republican in the Senate voted for health care reform!" is all I want to hear from Democrats going forward about why no health care reform was passed at the end of a long, year. Much better position for Democrats to be in than having to justify the crap Senate bill if it passes.

    Seems like you are assuming people like this (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by ruffian on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 09:37:33 AM EST
    bill and want it passed.  Republicans would get credit, not blame for killing this bill.  If it passes, they will run on the message that they did their best to stop it.

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    Everyone knows... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by NealB on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 01:32:20 PM EST
    ...the Republicans killed the good bill last summer, when they obstructed and took advantage of Obama's good faith. In the end they got everything they wanted, and still killed it. I think blaming Republicans is a much better strategy than a PR campaign to try to sell anything that might pass. If the worry is that there'll be a backlash against Democrats because they failed to pass health care reform, the only thing Democrats can do is blame it on Republicans. Whether the bill was crap or not (it is) doesn't matter if Republicans are going to try to blame Democrats for failing to pass a bill. Let them be the hypocrites. What are they going to argue...that the bill had a terrible individual mandate without a popular public option, so they had to kill it? It's not much, but it's all Democrats will have left; I think they've got to blame the failure on Republicans. It has the benefit of being mostly true.

    Parent
    yeah - except for that 60 vote supermajority (none / 0) (#37)
    by jeffhas on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 03:06:20 PM EST
    Dems had... for a year.

    Dems'll be painted as year-long failures.  Do nothing congress, yada, yada... it isn't true really, but to have promoted this all along and not been able to deliver will haunt them - almost as long as having a bad bill pass.... almost.

    Parent

    Yet another plus (none / 0) (#44)
    by NealB on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 05:20:05 PM EST
    for Democrats if Democrats lose that supermajority on Tuesday.

    Parent
    They could improve the message significantly... (none / 0) (#2)
    by NealB on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 09:27:26 AM EST
    ...if they immediately reintroduce the House bill and let Republicans defeat it again. Hell, force Republicans to defeat the best health care bills repeatedly all year long, and let's start looking toward a midterm where the party in power is looking at picking up seats, not losing them.

    Parent
    Jean Carnahan (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 09:36:32 AM EST
    was voting after Jim Talent defeated her.

    But I agree that this is an academic exercise. The votes for HCR will melt away if Coakley loses.

    Her term had not ended (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 09:45:19 AM EST
    Norm Coleman was NOT voting after the Minnesota election because his term ended.

    This is different in that the argument is that MA law is Kirk's term on election night. this is absurd. Kirk's term ends when the winner of the special election is declared. That is what certification is - a declaration of the winner of the election.

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    Coleman not voting (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 09:46:24 AM EST
    after January 6, 2009 when his term ended.

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    Remember she was appointed (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 09:54:34 AM EST
    and Talent was elected to fill the unexpired term. It it exactly the same situation.

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    Good point (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 10:52:13 AM EST
    My mistake.

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    Doesn't a term end (none / 0) (#10)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 10:58:03 AM EST
    in this case, and the next term begin, when the Senate says so?  The state certifies only to send the results to Congress, where the results are accepted -- or not.  Ala Burris delay -- or, historically, House refusal to seat Berger despite state certification.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 11:29:04 AM EST
    MA law would govern here imo.

    Parent
    And here, I thought that precedent (none / 0) (#12)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 11:39:23 AM EST
    mattered.  And especially in the Senate, which sets laws or at least rules and regs unto itself.

    Btw, even MA law requires more than certification.  The wording is certification and qualification.  Now, does qualification mean simply age, citizenship, etc.?  Apparently, some in the MA state legislature say it means more.  I think that they are wrong, but this suggests long legislative snarls could be setting up as we cyberspeak.


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    Surely qualification includes (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 11:48:28 AM EST
    having been elected. No one is elected until the election is certified.

    Parent
    Of course, redundancy is endemic (none / 0) (#18)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 12:21:31 PM EST
    in the law, but this one does seem to indicate that they are different factors -- as does law about qualifications for Senate office (and other office, i.e., the presidency requires qualifications, etc.).

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    The Consitution says: (none / 0) (#13)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 11:43:03 AM EST
    The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.


    Parent
    Not sure how that covers (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 11:47:49 AM EST
    the issue of the length of Kirk's term.

    Parent
    The vacancy issue is covered here: (none / 0) (#16)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 12:04:15 PM EST
    When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

    I read this as the state being the controlling authority here.

    Parent

    Well, that was the Burris debate (none / 0) (#19)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 12:24:16 PM EST
    in large part, too.  And the Berger debate.  And etc. . . .  And so far, Congress seems to have been able to assert its authority over state legislatures.

    Of course, it's all really more a political than legal debate -- and the political factors are far different for a Brown than a Burris, since the Senate does not seem short of white males. :-)

    Parent

    Just as long as the Supreme Court ... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 12:40:43 PM EST
    doesn't weigh in on another election.

    ;)

    Parent

    Burris debate: (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 12:55:51 PM EST
    Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members, . . .
      Article I, section 5.  

    Parent
    That's it -- thanks. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 01:01:42 PM EST
    And the MA leg could simply cancel the election (none / 0) (#23)
    by andgarden on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    but that's not gonna happen.

    Parent
    It's all about delaying (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 01:14:36 PM EST
    not canceling.  And the former is more easily done, because it is so much more confusing to media.

    Parent
    Interesting flip on what I read (none / 0) (#8)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 10:04:33 AM EST
    that MA Dems in the state legislature are talking about, which is that if Coakley loses, the state Dems would do a Burris to delay Brown taking office.  That is, talking about some legislation that would keep the interim in office past the standard installation date to get through the health insurance bill vote.  It's a continuation of the argument a couple of months ago, as Kennedy declined, that meant a change in legislation so that MA would not be without representation in the Senate.  Now, it's the same argument -- but this time, it would be because of a Burris-style delay.

    In sum, it sounds like all this is making life in the MA legislature lively of late on both sides.

    I do not think that's a good idea (none / 0) (#30)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:29:22 PM EST
    Many people across the country would view that unfavorably, cheating the system.  If Obama and the democrats have to go to such lengths to pass this bill, what does that say about the bill?  

    Parent
    Agreed. But bad ideas have abounded (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 03:09:46 PM EST
    from the beginning in the entire handling of this Corporate Health Insurance Premium Assistance debacle -- as more and more people are catching up and figuring out that it isn't much about health care.

    Parent
    \Steve M: where are you? (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 12:07:58 PM EST


    Driven off by an ad hominem comment (none / 0) (#25)
    by Spamlet on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 01:19:04 PM EST
    Doubt it. (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 01:25:46 PM EST
    Think he'll be back? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Spamlet on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:02:14 PM EST
    Has this happened before? He said he was done.

    Parent
    Wow. Really? (none / 0) (#31)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:30:26 PM EST
    I hate it when people are driven from forums simply because they have differing views.  Doesn't seem right.  

    Parent
    Not about differing views (none / 0) (#36)
    by Spamlet on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:59:02 PM EST
    Steve M can give and take when it comes to differing views.

    He was offended by what he, I, and some others regarded as an egregious personal remark. YMMV.

    Parent

    YMMV? (none / 0) (#40)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 03:14:26 PM EST
    Was the personal attack deleted?  I hope so and I hope that
    he will return.  

    Personal attacks come from a disagreement in views.   That's what I meant about a disagreement in views driving people off the blogs.  Some people just cannot handle someone disagreeing with them so they go personal, especially when losing the debate.  I would guess that is what happened to Steve, he bested someone and was attacked for it.  I hate that.  

    Parent

    Not quite what happened (none / 0) (#41)
    by Spamlet on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 03:34:36 PM EST
    As I said, it was an egregious personal remark, not quite an attack. The commenter said that Steve M's views on health care legislation are colored by the fact that Steve is white, male, straight, and (the commenter assumed) privileged, making a good living, and blessed with a healthy family. And while all of that may be true, and even though we all see issues through our own circumstances, no one else's comments on that thread were being attributed to his or her personal circumstances. Anyway, the topic here is the voting privileges of the appointed senator from Massachusetts, so I'll stop now.

    Parent
    Thanks Spamlet (none / 0) (#42)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM EST
    I read through the thread and you are correct.  It was an personal attack, and a presumptive one, that should not have happened.  Although Steve has often disagreed with me, I hope that he will return in spite of what happened to him here.  

    Parent
    I missed it (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 07:56:01 PM EST
    I always thought Steve was impervious so I never bothered with his exchanges.

    I hope I was right.

    I'll look for him if he stays gone.

    Parent

    Check out the thread on the 14th (none / 0) (#46)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 08:59:37 PM EST
    That's where I found the exchange that included Steve M's exit.

    Parent
    There was more going on before (none / 0) (#43)
    by Cream City on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 04:39:04 PM EST
    for a few days, too, on other threads between Steve M and another here.

    Parent
    I Was Hoping (none / 0) (#34)
    by daring grace on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:39:38 PM EST
    he meant he was done with that thread, but his comment regarding farewell was ambiguous...

    Parent
    Yup, Blue Dogs will start running for the hills (none / 0) (#32)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:34:48 PM EST
    They will finally see that Americans do not want this bill passed, not even in the bluest of blue states.  That will put the fear of God in those democrats from the south and from purple states like Indiana and Virginia.  I suspect that the close vote in MA, regardless of the outcome, had made some of those Blue Dogs reconsider their vote.  How far will they go?  Will they fall on their swords for Obama?  I don't know, but if one defaults, expect to see more of them deserting the sinking ship.  jmo

    How much more time will they waste (none / 0) (#33)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:39:00 PM EST
    Only this unpopular bill?  I don't see it happening but they between a rock and a hard place.  Their egos won't let them abandon this bill, on the other hand, the more time they spend on it, and the more who defect, the more unpopular it will become.  They are wasting a heck of a lot of political capital on trying to make Obama look good.  

    Would this have played out any (none / 0) (#35)
    by hairspray on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 02:51:32 PM EST
    differently if Ted Kennedy had stepped aside when he knew the end was near and allowed an election at that time.  Or was allowing Kirk to take an appointed interim position that best that could have happened to that seat?

    I think if Kennedy had stepped aside early, (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jeffhas on Sun Jan 17, 2010 at 03:11:00 PM EST
    He could've campaigned for the Dem replacement.

    Oh well - live by the Ego die by the Ego...


    Parent