Report: California Has No Immigrant Crime Problem

By Jeralyn, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 07:24:49 PM EST
Tags: immgration and crime (all tags)

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Via the Crime Report:

Violent crime in California dropped dramatically during the same period of intense immigration to the state, found a new study by Barry Krisberg of the Berkeley Center for Criminal Justice, which is based at the School of Law. The study, which disputes the link between violent crime and immigration, also found that the increase in state prison populations is not related to the influx of immigrants.

Here's the full study, Where Is The Fire?

Data obtained from the Department of Finance and the Department of Justice reveal that during a long period of new immigration, crime has shown a large and steady decline in California.

[More...]

The study cites similar findings elsewhere:

Other scholars who have conducted a detailed examination of the crime‐immigration connection in California have reached the same conclusion. A 2000‐2005 analysis by the Public Policy Institute of California looked at 29 California cities and found that there was no statistically significant relationship between the number of recent foreign‐born immigrants and rates of property crime, and in fact, increased immigration was correlated with declining rates of violent crime. The finding is consistent with research on Chicago which actually concluded that immigrants were responsible for a drop in crime.

Another finding:

The large growth in the California immigrant population does not appear to be associated with a significant increase in foreign‐born immigrants in state prisons.

Bottom Line:

[There is] no support for the assertion that immigration increases crime, particularly violent crime.

The message:

The data in this paper confirms that there is no evidence that California is in the midst of a crime emergency as a result of substantial migration of persons born in other nations. To allow this myth to guide public policy discussions about newly arrived noncitizens and future American citizens is harmful.

California is facing a myriad of serious social and economic challenges33 in the years ahead. The danger is to fall prey to Governing through Crime – turning meaningful conversations about policy issues into opinions based on fear, myths, and political manipulation.

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Report: California Has No Immigrant Crime Problem | 70 comments (70 topical)

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Well, to be perfectly logical about it (none / 0) (#1)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:28:51 AM EST

crimes are committed by some illegal immigrants.

If there were no illegal immigrants, there would be no crimes committed by them, and therefore there would be less crime overall.

I could make the same argument about ... (5.00 / 0) (#2)
by cymro on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:56:37 AM EST

... any group. Southern Baptists, gun owners, and English majors all contribute to the crime totals. What should we do about them?


Shorter SUO (5.00 / 3) (#3)
by Harry Saxon on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 05:46:21 AM EST

When the facts don't confirm my prejudices, I'll keep
my prejudices anyway.


Oooo, you're so dark and avengy... (none / 0) (#5)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:30:17 AM EST

: If you have an accusation to make (none / 0) (#67)
by Harry Saxon on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 07:14:26 PM EST

state it unequivocally.

: Barking up Wrong Tree (none / 0) (#69)
by squeaky on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 07:37:26 PM EST

Dark Avenger was not tough on crime and weeping about victims over unjust and onerous laws.

I was responding to the statement: (none / 0) (#4)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:28:48 AM EST

California Has No Immigrant Crime Problem

This is patently untrue.

If we did not have illegal immigrants we would not have the problem of crime committed by illegal immigrants.


Not really (none / 0) (#6)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:40:41 AM EST

The more immigrants, the less crime as a percentage, no?

By your thinking, we have a white Republican crime problem because white Republicans commit crimes too. So, let's get rid of them....

In fact, I'd bet that there are more white Republicans that commit crimes than Latinos....So, in order to reduce crime, let's replace white Republicans with Latinos....


Yes really (none / 0) (#8)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:50:19 AM EST

There is crime committed by illegal immigrants in California.

If there were no illegal immigrants hee, we would not have the problem of the crime committed by them.

The headline/statement is false.


You twist the meaning of "problem" (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:13:50 PM EST

The article above says two studies actually show that immigrants reduce the violent crime rate.

Very few immigrants cause crime, and not so many undocumented commit crime either. It is a matter of self-selection....Someone who comes here to scrub toilets to feed their family is simply unlikely to commit crime.

If the very small percentage of those here illegally commit crime--in rates lower than citizens--then that is not a "problem." If anything, it suggests that more immigrant communities and fewer non-immigrants communities would lead to less crime overall. In other words, if the rest of society could mimick immigrant communiteis, there would less crime--in absolute terms and as a rate. That is not a "problem."

To deal in absolute terms is very misleading--because that is not how we look at broad problems in society...Historically, we look at crime rates. Because absolute numbers are generally misleading, given population increases over time.

So, when we talk about the crime "problem" as a whole, we talk about crime rates. You switch the meaning of "problem" to mean the absolute number of crimes as opposed the crime rate.

Yours is the classical logical fallacy of equivocation.

Republicans do this all the time. A good example is the argument that a three day old embryo is a "human being"--because it has human DNA and is "alive." But that is not the standard meaning/connotation of what it means to be a human being.....

Word games.....Not substance....Fundamentally dishonest....Standard conservative tripe.....


Completely dishonest MKS, not that I'm surprised.. (2.00 / 1) (#18)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:35:27 PM EST

The headline

is absolute, and is false.

Cali has the problem of crime committed by illegal immigrants.

Standard tripe from you, MKS, however not standard from liberals in my experience...


No... (5.00 / 3) (#21)
by kdog on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:44:40 PM EST

The statement "California has no immigrant crime." would be false...it's seems pretty clear that the stats indicate the amount of crime commited by immigrants is not enough to rate as a "problem".

I mean some crime is to be expected from any and all human sub-groups, the rub is how much constitutes a "problem".

I certainly think fear-mongering about an immigrant crime "problem" is inaccurate at best, willfully dishonest at worst.


thanks (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by CST on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:46:57 PM EST

this is what I was trying to get at, but you said it much more succinctly and clearly.


: You said it well too... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by kdog on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:48:26 PM EST

I actually chimed in before reading your comments below...a bad habit, I start chomping at the bit and can't help myself:)

I think it's clear (5.00 / 2) (#35)
by lilburro on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:10:57 PM EST

that the headline is written in response to fear-mongering that illegal immigrants are somehow a more criminal population than any other in the US. "Immigrant crime problem" being a type of phrasing used by groups such as the Center for Immigration Studies.


So one must be specifically familiar with (none / 0) (#39)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:25:44 PM EST

the "type of phrasing used by groups such as the Center for Immigration Studies" in order to be able to decipher the non-standard meanings of the words used in the headline. iow, it's written in code. Great.


No, you are using the non-standard (5.00 / 1) (#42)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:31:48 PM EST

meaning of the word "problem."

With respect to crime, "problem" has always been used in the context of crime rates....That is how crime is reported and measured and the basis on which resources are deployed....I think Jeralyn would be familiar with that usage and context and that was what she meant, no?

But, at least you are recognizing that this phony issue that you raise is all about how you define "problem."


Yowza, so now (none / 0) (#46)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:40:36 PM EST

one must be specifically familiar with the "type of phrasing used by groups such as the Center for Immigration Studies" AND "how crime is reported and measured and the basis on which resources are deployed" in order to decipher the non-standard meanings of the words used in the headline.

Sounds a little far-fetched to me so I'll just go with what the headline actually says, despite your efforts to twist the words.


Yes (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by lilburro on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:43:22 PM EST

you go with what the headline actually says, bringing up illegal immigration when nowhere in the headline does it actually say illegal immigration. You're the literal one.


Irrelevant. (none / 0) (#53)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:52:05 PM EST

There is also the problem of crimes committed in Cali by immigrants, legal and illegal.

Does it surprise you that some people think about crimes committed by illegal immigrants differently than crimes committed by legal immigrants and citizens?


You are obsessed with this (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:55:37 PM EST

And you completely miss the point about the crime rates being lower among immigrant communities.

There is no rational basis for the hostility toward immigrants or even those here illegally....


More misinformation by you. Purposefully? (none / 0) (#60)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:04:11 PM EST

Now you're backpedaling, which is (none / 0) (#19)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 09:42:34 AM PST
understandable considering your comments.
The headline is completely false.
Had it said something along the lines of "Studies show immigrant violent crime rate less than California average" I'd have had no quarrels.

: Why go out of your way to make (5.00 / 1) (#62)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:08:49 PM EST

such a petty point?--even assuming you were right, which you are not.

Good grief, now now we're parsing (none / 0) (#27)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:56:00 PM EST

and quibbling over when and if crime is a problem?

Knock yourself out, too ridiculous for me.


If all crime is a problem... (5.00 / 0) (#30)
by kdog on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:02:47 PM EST

then we will always have a crime problem, with any and all sub-groups...no point in discussing "crime problems".

And if that is the case, thank the sun god for the crime problems, cuz I don't wanna imagine living in a society without crime problems, at least under our existing over-criminalizing system of laws...such a society would resemble pure hell.


Of course we'll always have a crime problem (none / 0) (#32)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:05:35 PM EST

with any and all subgroups, I'm not the one who put the term in my headline. Complain to J, not to me.


So, you recognize the broader point (5.00 / 2) (#34)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:10:41 PM EST

but thought you'd be cute by parsing the word "problem" and twisting it to make the headline inaccurate in your view?


I just read what it says in plain english, (none / 0) (#36)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:14:23 PM EST

unlike you.


Plain English? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
by squeaky on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:18:25 PM EST

What are you a computer? Language is better understood by humans.


Because language (none / 0) (#38)
by lilburro on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:19:10 PM EST

and word selection is never influenced by political or cultural context? All this fighting over a few (debatably) missing quotation marks?


You lost me, where might quotation marks be put? (none / 0) (#41)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:29:51 PM EST

You really have no idea? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:36:17 PM EST

With all the discussion of a certain particular word?

The meaning was clear--both the headline and the comment about quotation marks.

I think use of the word in question without quotation marks is appropriate here because it is properly used given the context. Your use of the word would require quotation marks....because you imply a non-standard usage.


around (5.00 / 0) (#45)
by lilburro on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:38:16 PM EST

your "interest" in immigration issues, since the framing used in this piece and the entire subject and reason this study was published is completely unfamiliar to you. I would suggest reading the PDF at the link above.


Or, the headline could have been written better. (none / 0) (#49)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:43:28 PM EST

Kinda my point.


Stupid point (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:56:54 PM EST

wrong too....

No point except to try and salvage an attack on immigrants and Latinos....


No (5.00 / 1) (#57)
by lilburro on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:57:17 PM EST

your point is that if illegal immigrants were not here, they would be unable to commit crimes.

The point of the headline, and study as a whole, is that immigrants do not commit crimes more than the average population.

Jeralyn's post is about what it says it's about. Your initial comment is disingenuous. This post was not about illegal immigration. And your comment necessarily points to one solution, deportation. Because if we granted amnesty they would stay in the country. And if that happened we would not have "less crime overall."


: Now you are just making things up. (none / 0) (#63)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:09:09 PM EST

Crime Problem (none / 0) (#33)
by squeaky on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:10:05 PM EST

If there were a crime problem in CA you would be hiding under your bed.

A "problem" is something that affects you personally, but you know that.


I honestly don't see any problem... (none / 0) (#40)
by kdog on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:28:06 PM EST

with J's headline Sao Sarc...there is no immigrant crime problem, despite the many (self-serving) claims to the contrary.

In fact, I see self-servers with "solutions" trying to invent "problems" that don't exist...I think we should keep an eye on that crew, not the paperless crew. No paperless cat ever tried to lump me in with a crime "problem" du jour...I can't say the same for politicians, bueracrats, and certain special interests.


I honestly don't understand (none / 0) (#43)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:35:47 PM EST

you can look at crime - violent crime in this case - and say "oh, that's no problem. It's only a problem when X number of people get hurt, beaten, whatever, and we're not there yet."

To be fair, I am only quarreling about crime committed by illegal immigrants although the study is about all immigrants, legal and illegal.


well the headline doesn't say (5.00 / 0) (#47)
by lilburro on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:42:00 PM EST

illegal immigrants. You are "quarreling" with your own imagination.


: You think he really distinguishes (none / 0) (#54)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:52:55 PM EST

between the two....Despite any protestatiosns to the contrary, I wonder....Going out his way to manufacture a (wrong) argument about the headline on this subject.

Ah, see, that is the equivocation (5.00 / 1) (#52)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:49:21 PM EST

Any crime, given your definition, is always a problem.....

But we are talking about overall trends and crime in general...So, the percentages and the rates are the issue.

The inherent dishonesty in your approach is that you don't apply the same standard to all--just to the brown people.....

Would you deport (or take punitive action against) all Catholic priests? WASPs? Conservatives? Of course not....even though there are members of each of those groups that commit crime.

The implied argument is that because "illegal immigrants" cause a crime "problem," and that "problem" would be eliminated if they were all deported, we should deport them.....or if not deport them, somehow get tough with "them."

Your argument is bigotted because you do not use the same reasoning across-the-board to all crime problems, or to any problems that I can see...


Your hate gets in the way of your logic, (none / 0) (#58)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:00:15 PM EST

and then you throw in as many strawmen as you can and presto! more hate. Standard tripe from you.

To answer one of your many strawmen, I do view crimes committed here in my state/country by legal immigrants and citizens differently than crimes committed here by illegal immigrants.

I'm sure this will trigger more vehomence from a hater like you...


"Hater" (5.00 / 1) (#59)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:02:36 PM EST

When a conservative uses that word, that generally means they are tossing in the towell and are admitting defeat...

Sarah Palin loves that word....


: Thanks for the chuckle. (none / 0) (#61)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:05:04 PM EST

I can call it awful, (none / 0) (#51)
by kdog on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:47:30 PM EST

I can call it tragic...I can't call it a problem, problem implies a solution can be reached, and I just don't see it using thousands of years of human history as a guide.

Though it would be nice to have such a problem-free society that individual acts of violence rate as a societal problem...that would be real progress:)


OK, you can't call violent crime (none / 0) (#64)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:11:35 PM EST

a problem? Or you only can't call violent crime committed by certain groups a problem?


I'm afraid... (none / 0) (#65)
by kdog on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:42:48 PM EST

a certain level of violent crime is a given for the human race, especially when assembled into quasi-free societies...we will never have a murder free year.

It's a big problem for the individual victim and their loved ones, hell yeah, the biggest...but society at large? I have to say no...on the list of problems our society has, I don't think violent crime, or specifically violent crime committed by immigrants, rates as a societal problem in need of a solution right now. And I think the stats, for what they are worth, agree with that assessment.

If you're arguing one murder committed by an immigrant requires a new societal response to immigration and/or violent crime outside the standard response...I just disagree. Every violent crime is tragic, but unless there is a huge spike, our standard response to arrest, try, and convict is sufficient.


: OK, to you, violent crime is not a problem (none / 0) (#66)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:57:10 PM EST

and therefore in your opinion the headline is absolutely valid. Fair enough.

We have a crime problem with religious people (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:03:02 PM EST

We have a crime problem with Catholic priests....

We have a crime problem with white, upper class Republicans....

We have a crime problem with white protestants from the South.

We have a crime problem with conservatives....

You completely destroy the meaning of the word "problem" by applying it here....

A tedious trick that almost everyone sees through at first blush.


You did not respond to (none / 0) (#20)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:44:02 PM EST

the substance of what I wrote....

You just repeat yourself--with increasing dogmatic insistence each time....

Look up the definition of the logical--since you want to talk about "logic"-- fallacy of equivocation.


not necessarily (none / 0) (#7)
by CST on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:46:36 AM EST

there are more factors here than you are allowing for - it's not a zero sum game.

For example, I think we all assume these immigrants come there for jobs. If we did not have immigrants there to do those jobs, people from other states might come in to do them instead. Or people might start having more kids. And these populations might have a higher level of crime.

And then there are the immigrants who might report crime, and help to stop it.

Or they create and foster a community where others are also less likely to commit crime.

Say you have a scenario where a legal resident is making money off of illegal immigrants. They might then be less likely to rob, etc...

It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.


I don't think immigrants, (5.00 / 1) (#23)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:45:40 PM EST

or at least the undocumented, report crime very much....

There is less crime among this group because they are here to work, not commit crime....


Actually, the headline and my response to it (none / 0) (#9)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:53:42 AM EST

are absolutely black and white.

You can theorize about "what ifs" to your heart's content, but the headline to this thread is completely untrue.


not really (none / 0) (#10)
by CST on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:56:32 AM EST

if immigrants are responsible for stopping more crime than they commit, via all of my potential "what ifs"-which could easily be true - then your statement is false, and the headline is true.


Even if they did stop more crime (none / 0) (#12)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:02:04 PM EST

than they commit, they do still commit crime, thus there is a still the problem of crime committed by illegal immigrants. The headline is false.


depends on your definition (none / 0) (#13)
by CST on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:05:50 PM EST

and use of the word "problem".

you are looking at it on a micro level instead of a macro level. That doesn't mean a macro level isn't a valid way to look at it.


Are you sure it doesn't depend on what (none / 0) (#15)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:15:06 PM EST

the definition of the word "is" is? Seriously, now you're just getting silly.


: You are the one playing word games (none / 0) (#17)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:34:23 PM EST

with the meaning of "problem."

: potato pot`ato (none / 0) (#22)
by CST on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:45:26 PM EST

personally, I think your parsing on this whole "problem" thing is beyond silly.
It's clear what was meant in the context of the post.

Absolutely black and white (none / 0) (#16)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32:15 PM EST

Some days I wish there were more things like that in life....However....Rather than create artificial, self-fullfiling and circular definitions, a look at reality is needed.

The overall idea here is what to do about crime. If the overall crime rate is lower among the immigrant community than the non-immigrant commnuity, the answer is to target the community with the higher rate. In a world of limited resources, you focus on the biggest problem first. And that is not the immigrant community.


Now you're backpedaling, which is (none / 0) (#19)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:42:34 PM EST

understandable considering your comments.

The headline is completely false.

Had it said something along the lines of "Studies show immigrant violent crime rate less than California average" I'd have had no quarrels.


: Nope, still hold the same position (none / 0) (#26)
by MKS on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:49:51 PM EST

You are committing the classical logical fallacy of equivocation by using a non-standard definition/understanding of the word "problem."

Actually, I do see now what you are saying. (none / 0) (#11)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 11:58:34 AM EST

Fine, strike the last clause from my first comment.

Well, to be perfectly logical about it, crimes are committed by some illegal immigrants.
If there were no illegal immigrants, there would be no problem of crimes committed by them.

You Are Wrong. (none / 0) (#28)
by ScottW714 on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57:13 PM EST

If they is no statistical difference there can not be a problem. Problems, by definition, are outliers, they don't conform to the rest of the population, statistically speaking.

If I have problem with my faucet it because statically speaking it's not like most others, it's an outlier. If my state has a crime problem it's because it's statistically different, again, an outlier, different in some measurable form. Our crime would have to vary from other states statically or my claim is a false claim.

If my town, Houston, is a third X, Y, and Z. If the variables they used in this study are statistically indifferent, you can't claim X is the problem because no problem exists. There is no outlier.

I believe your getting mixed up between a problem in general, as in crime, vs. the problem you personally have with immigrants. The report clearly makes the obvious point, the odds of you getting robbed by an immigrant are equal to the odds of you getting robbed in general. Remove the immigrants, your odds of getting robbed are the exact same.

Again, if every immigrant was to magically vanish, you would not be any safer.

The fact that you can't let it go leads me to believe you are more scared of getting robbed by an immigrant, making the only problem yours, not the state of California's.


How embarassing. (none / 0) (#29)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 12:59:39 PM EST

Well Let the Figment of Your Imagination.. (none / 0) (#50)
by ScottW714 on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 01:44:59 PM EST

... live on, to hell with those pesky facts. You know there is a problem, it can't proven with any meaningful metric, but yet the problem lives on because you say so.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.


: Don't bust a gut (none / 0) (#68)
by Rojas on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 07:28:55 PM EST

I'm thinkin', from your grasp of the subject matter, you may be Rick Perry's science advisor, or perhaps you spent some time as risk manager on Deepwater Horizon....

For those of us who (none / 0) (#70)
by nyrias on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 02:25:40 PM EST

actually live in CA, immigrants, legal or not, are a fact of life. Most of those I have met, are hard working and they are the ones who cut my grass and clean my house.

This report just confirms the fact that most of them are here to work. In fact, I am not surprised if they are less likely to commit a crime. Think about it. If they are here to work, and they are afraid of law enforcement, how likely it is for them to call attention to themselves by committing crimes which GUARANTEE law enforcement attention?

However, note that there the decrease of crime COINCIDE with the establishment of the 3 strike laws. Immigration may not be the ONLY factor in driving down crime.