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Fun With Labels

I always refer to my self as a Centrist, in part because I think it is expedient, but really, I think I pretty much am a Centrist, in the sense that my views fall pretty much in the middle of opinion in the country. In the Beltway, probably I would be Left, but the Beltway is a bubble all its own.

I tell you this as a preface to commenting on this from Matt Yglesias:

Self-identified conservatives outnumber self-identified liberals by a large margin and moderates are a much bigger force in the Democratic coalition than in the Republican one. So if you want a deal, appointing an orthodox conservative Republican and a moderate Democrat from North Carolina makes a lot of sense.

This is fun with labels nonsense. The Catfood Commission's proposals are filled with proposals that not only are bad, they are far outside the mainstream of what Americans want, and, more relevantly, what Congress will ever approve. I mean really - eliminate the mortgage interest deduction is going to happen? Cutting Social Security benefits is going to happen? Never. Ever. The Catfood Commission proposal is unserious and unSerious. What might it be about? I dunno, but Yglesias' post is silly.

Speaking for me only

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    I always thought that too. (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by ek hornbeck on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 05:30:44 PM EST
    But I was sadly mistaken.

    You see, I have principles I'm not willing to abandon for personalities.

    When I first voted for President in 1980, I voted (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by rhbrandon on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 02:15:27 PM EST
    as the liberal/moderate Republican I saw in my dad. The older I got the more I seem to have moved relatively liberal in some ways (social welfare, etc.), more conservative in in others (resistance to erosion of civil liberties). I guess I should like someone like Obama, but he doesn't appear to fight for what most people want.

    Oddly enough, one of the best sites I enjoy reading for legal issues of concern to defense counsel happens to be the Cato Institute.

    Parent

    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by sj on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 02:15:50 PM EST
    It's interesting that you consider resistance to erosion of civil liberties a conservative position.  Oh, I mean it should be, no doubt.  

    But the implication is that you consider the actual erosion of civil liberties (done so effectively by Bush) a liberal position.  The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) is a liberal institution that has been reviled by the Republican party for as long as I can remember.  Either you're more liberal than you consider yourself, or you're very confused.

    Parent

    The Deficit Commission (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:06:34 PM EST
    deliberations should be telecast on CSPAN.
    The Commission serves a useful purpose. It should be used to educate people on where spending cuts will come from if the deficit is to be slashed. For too long TeaPublicans have demagogued on cutting spending. Most people do not understand what cutting discretionary and mandatory spending in the Federal budget means, however a general phrase like "cutting waste" always sounds good to them.

    How many "self identified" in the (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:08:24 PM EST
    Conservative base are going to be royally ticked off about any of Obama's handpicked commissions recommendations that he may sign into law?  How many self identified Independents are going to be outraged along with all these Liberals. And duh, if anything is done with any of this and it fries a whole bunch of people across the spectrum, none of this is going to stick to Republicans.  It isn't their handpicked commission and it isn't their President and it isn't their Senate.

    If anything passes in the lame duck session, (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:16:46 PM EST
    it isn't their handpicked commission and it isn't their President and it isn't their Senate and it isn't their House. IOW the Dems will own the it lock, stock and barrel.


    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by cal1942 on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 02:10:43 AM EST
    Obama and Democrats in general will get the blame if cuts to Social Security and the elimination of mortgage interest deduction make it through.

    This would finish off the Democratic Party.

    How any Democrat can approve of allowing a signature program like Social Security, a program that identifies the Democratic Party be damaged is beyond all comprehension.  It's like saying OK cut off my testicles and I'll help.

    I don't trust Obama to understand any of this and I don't trust many of the Democrats in Congress to understand this either.

    While it may sound ludicrous that any of this can pass who in their right mind would trust Obama with any of this.  He said he wanted to "fix" Social Security and to him this may very well be fixing it.  Fixed as in castrated.

    Parent

    What Tracy said. (none / 0) (#5)
    by jawbone on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:09:51 PM EST
    Why won't voters (none / 0) (#11)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:38:53 PM EST
    in Wisconsin or New Hampshire or elsewhere note when Paul Ryan or Judd Gregg argue about cutting Social Security and Medicare or Tom Coburn talks about cutting defense spending? Why won't people note when Jan Schakowsky or Xavier Becerra argue about the need to preserve SS, Medicare and our national parks?

    The President is not going to sign anything unless 14 of the 18 members agree and sign on the whole package. This is not an easy task. 14 of the 18 are never going to agree to signing anything unless there is a general feeling that the majority of the country agrees with them.

    Providing more information to the public is never a bad thing. Doh!!

    Parent

    We keep talking about the "dumbing down" (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by christinep on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 07:09:14 PM EST
    of society. So be it, or maybe not. There is a way to make these upcoming "deliberations" interesting...simply because most people will recognize their interest in a part of it. And, I cannot express how much I agree with you, politalkix. People can and will comprehend choices that touch their lives. Do we cut this, do we cut that, if we take one from one side should we take one from the other, and so on.

    What do we want government to do in the next 50 years, where do we want to go? Where can we compromise and where should we not? Darn...even as I child (without cable and without CSPAN) we watched hearings in my family's house, and talked about it.  

    I wonder if a major challenge for all of us is to see/to push/to call for some of that famous sunshine on these hearings. You remember the "sunshine law" movement.  We need to move this to the forefron of people's attention; talk about it; raise questions.

    I have every confidence that if these proposals are given daylight (floodlight), we will rid ourselves of the ridiculous and find an area of common ground.  The reason I say that: I believe in the US form of government, and the people that comprise it. That is not soppy or wishful or crap. Rather, it is based on my realization that there are x number and types of government around the world. I like this one. That determination really underlies another determination to believe in its citizenry. ('Cause, like it or not, that belief is at the heart of it. Even with the teapartiers or whatever the latest group of "me firsts" call themselves.)

    Parent

    The time for sunlight, for active (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 07:34:05 PM EST
    participation by the electorate was at the time the commission was convened and a charter was established.  Oh, sure, when you go the website, you'll see some dates for "public" meetings, but the working groups were deliberately structured to avoid the open meetings law.  And that's where the real work has been and is being done.  We - the people whom so much of this could affect - haven't been trusted to know what's going on.

    The commission started from a dishonest place, and it's stayed there, and I think you should ask yourself why it was so important to not just keep it so much out of the public's examination, but structure the rest of it in such a way that it would not be subject to the usual process in which decisions are supposed to be made - with open debate, with opportunity for hearings, for amendment and yes, for filibuster.

    This is not to say that the commission will agree on any of the draft recommendations, or that the Congress, if presented with any, won't refuse to be complicit in government by fiat.  Neither Harry Reid nor Nancy Pelosi should EVER have agreed to accept the conditions for voting on these recommendations, so I can't say as I feel particularly positive the full bodies will stand up against it, either.

    Had this been an honest effort, it would have had a generous helping of the transparency Obama spent a lot of time making promises about, once upon a time.  When Obama said he wanted to "change the way Washington works," did you ever imagine he would do so in a less democratic way?  I still have no idea why so many people sat back quietly to "wait and see" what happens.

    Tthe work of the commission is essentially done - it's all over but the shouting - and your happy sunshine will be too little, too late.

    Parent

    Theoretically, yes: in practice, no (none / 0) (#18)
    by christinep on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 08:58:31 PM EST
    I used to think that the time for engagement in so many areas was in the earliest of stages (even before committees/commissions were named.) But--just like the voting process, many people wait to engage, they come to decisions later than I usually do about these political matters. It forced me to a type of patience not entirely natural for me. (Now, I drive others "nuts" with the "patience" mantra.) But, that does seem to be how many large-scale, non-authoritarian decisions are made. The "process" (or the coming-to-the-question) can take awhile. Example: In the many years of marriage, my husband almost always wants political & societal issues to gel a bit...when I hound with "well, well...isn't this too much, or isn't this horrible...c'mon what do you think"...vagueness, push back, etc. is the normal response. (Oh...my husband is an activist in many area and holds a doctorate in political science, voting behavior and taught political science for awhile.)

    My point: We should all recognize where issues lead earlier. We should; but.... Believe it or don't, it has taken me many years to "wait and see" just a bit. I'm trained as a federal enforcement prosecutor type; my natural bent is to go for it. Ok? I wish the President would have that personality type; he doesn't.  It is my experience now that saying "People should have done this, realized this, done that earlier, etc." goes nowhere for the most part. It is a good venting device. And, sometimes, it really would have been better. If we take people where we find them--as at the start of oh-so-many wars--then the real conversation begins when they are ready.

    Parent

    He is the President of the United States (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 06:46:39 AM EST
    He can dismiss this panel right now with a wave of his hand.  The debates are taking place right this minute.  If he cared to know about any of them, they are right there....everyone's concerns are right out there, serious factual debate by individuals can easily be found in the buff.  This commission was design to circumvent transparency by a President who promised transparency.  It was designed to shove things down people's throats, and if it moves forward this President is finished.

    Parent
    He is the President, yes (none / 0) (#26)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 11:30:37 AM EST
    But, wave of the hand stuff (and salutes) don't go over too well in the civilian arena. (I say this as a daughter of a proud Marine Corps.) Really, MT...sometimes things have to play out/work out. He has to direct at some point on the Commission; but, preemptive here isn't necessary. There is a lot of smoke and gas now. Get the real issues on the table first before squandering the bully pulpit.

    Parent
    Nice try (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 11:59:48 AM EST
    this is his commission.  And this isn't a military issue so I haven't a clue where in the hell you are pouring a paragraph of verbal porridge from.  This is a political, economic, policy issue....and this is his created commission and nobody elses.  There isn't nearly as much smoke and gas as you want everyone to believe either.  He is on the record as declaring that entitlements must be dealt with and tweaked.  He has known what Peter G. Peterson wants.  He has known exactly what Simpson was going to fight for.  He invited these people into this debate and embued them with power.  It is his power that empowers them and nothing else.

    Parent
    Sorry, imbued (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 12:02:11 PM EST
    I get too frustrated in reading stuff like you just put up, because it is all a front of B.S.  I have to ask myself if you aren't some paid hack who purposefully goes around talking total bull highjacking discussions that could be making powerful greedy people uncomfortable.

    Parent
    No porridge (none / 0) (#29)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 01:32:08 PM EST
    Just not authoritarianism. MT: Magic waves and wands don't work except in fairy tales. My comments addressed what I consider a misguided view that the President in this country has a kind of authority of telling/commanding/ordering in the civilian realm as he does as CIC. My point: As you have noted many times, you have an understanding of how the military operates, including the role of the strong CIC...but, the real and perceived limitations in the US President's civilian role are more circumscribed by expectation and tradition. If, for example, a Presidential Commission is established, then most people would expect that their work should be completed before being dismissed. To do otherwise would undoubtedly cause a negative media and public sensation where none need exist. (And, judging by the controversy and negative reaction from quarters on the right and left, it would make sense for this situation to sort a bit more. Nothing would be done before the new Congress in any event. Heck--once again--I raise the general question : Has anyone heard from Boehner yet?)

    My apology for not being more direct in the earlier comment.

    Parent

    Condescending pap. (none / 0) (#32)
    by observed on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 02:10:40 PM EST
    And, I thank you too. (none / 0) (#34)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 02:23:57 PM EST
    When you say that 14 must agree (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 07:28:56 PM EST
    and sign on to the whole package I guess you mean the the items that are in the final package and not the items in the co-chairs recommendations.

    The final package could conceivably only contain one or two items that 14 members of the 18 member committee agree upon. If any of the items impact people's Social Security or Medicare benefits, I don't think that people will pay much attention to who said what. They will pay attention and judge the final results.

    All the media headlines that I saw were a variation of Obama's panel recommends Social Security cuts and elimination of mortgage interest deduction. That IMO will be the same theme that will be played nonstop if changes are made to the Social Security or Medicare.    

    Parent

    The final results are all that (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 06:36:38 AM EST
    matters to anyone who has no say in any part of any process, unless you are some sort of phile.  People in the blogosphere often mistake their dedicated fascinations as something that the rest of the world also possesses or even has time to engage in during the most horrible time of financial instablility and destruction in their lifetimes, and that to me is the height of arrogance. Obama also designed this commission, he is responsible for everyone being there and having the ability to vote.  He is responsible for granting them any power whatsoever.  HE IS RESPONSIBLE.

    Parent
    The Denver Post has editorialized (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 01:36:04 PM EST
    that President Obama and others need to listen to some of the suggestions preliminarily disclosed. Yesterday's paper here refers to the task of the independent Commission. That also seems to be the take of PBS Jim Lehrer. I guess we will see.

    Parent
    I think I've heard the MS media (none / 0) (#37)
    by sallywally on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 09:31:12 PM EST
    sound like these are reasonable proposals that may have "shocked the base" or something like that. At least I think I remember being irritated as all get-out during network and possibly CNN news (though I usually bypass CNN and remember doing that really quickly in the last couple of days at the sight of Gloria Borger)

    Parent
    Usage question: I see "cat food" on my (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jawbone on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:08:28 PM EST
    cat's food labels. Google sends me to "cat food" when I search for food for cats. But it sent me to mostly blog posts about the "Catfood Commission" when I included "catfood" in my search.

    I use "Cat Food Commission" when I write about the Obama/Peterson deficit reduction commission (which Obama set up by executive order after the Dems in Congress refused to vote for it, and Obama stacked it with deficit hawks, Austerians (those who favor auterity measures to manage the current economic situation), and those who favor "fixing" SocSec, most by making cuts to benefits and moving the age for full benefits to 70.
    ."

    So -- many in the blogosphere write "catfood." Why? Whassup with that? Easier to avoid the space and thus having to capitalize "Food"?

    Given that the name comes from the notion that poor seniors may be reduced to eating cat food, shouldn't the generally recognized spelling be used?  

    Of course, the only cat food seniors on reduced SocSec rations will be able to afford will be the large cans of the cheap canned cat food, the stuff that really smells awful.

    As to Iglesias's attempt to call Bowles a moderate Dem? Oh, LOL!

    In the US... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by seabe on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:23:32 PM EST
    I'm far-left.

    If I were in Germany, before this entire financial crisis, there would be a chance I'd have voted for Merkel because she puts climate change at the forefront of her policy. To steal David Roberts' word, I am a climate hawk.

    If I were in Sweden, I would probably swing between both major parties (SSDP and MP).

    So I guess with respect to the world, I'm center-left. With respect to the US, I'm pretty much a Commie.

    The best way to describe my ideology is technocratic: whatever logically works, I support. I am not ideologically driven, except when it comes to civil liberties.

    The point is... (none / 0) (#9)
    by seabe on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:25:34 PM EST
    once again, labels are stupid and pointless. Everything is relative.

    Is being a civil libertarian left or right? It's neither.

    Is supporting a carbon tax left or right? In my opinion, it's neither. It's the most efficient and effective way of dealing with climate change.

    Parent

    It is sad what passes for center (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 07:47:23 AM EST
    now in the U.S. though.  I've never been a bleeding heart in my life.  In a family of Democrats I was always making the suck it up argument.  Suck it up is now the hippy position in the United States at this time if I listen to the media, and suck it is the center argument.  But it is all lies because the people in their little boxes made out of ticky tacky are all flaming P.O.ed.  Someone is telling a lot of lies out there and simply getting away with it at the moment.

    Parent
    But here the left and right have opposing (none / 0) (#38)
    by sallywally on Sun Nov 14, 2010 at 09:38:32 PM EST
    views on it, so it is effectively a right or left issue.

    Were all the parties involved not climate-change deniers, this might be seen as a useful, if centrist, way of handling the problem, but it seems unlikely with the right-wing's attitude toward Obama and the Democrats.

    Parent

    people seem to taking it serious (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by kdm251 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:35:11 PM EST
    I hope you are right about no one following the recomendations of the catfood commission,  but it seems like a lot of people in charge are starting to talk about it.  Sort of reminds me of the Iraq invasion, it started out as a joke and the next thing you know we are invading

    That is because--in Irag--Bush had (none / 0) (#31)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 01:53:18 PM EST
    the authority (or, at least, the Congress wasn't going to challenge him.) While I take your concern that this could morph and get out-of-hand, my somewhat cynical observation is that the Chairs' proposals "gore too many oxen" and just downright invade too many interests that it is not going anywhere fast. Talk is what it generates. The question will be whether there can be a reasonable distillation of a couple items that the populace won't rise up against? There could be a few productive areas. We don't know that yet.

    Parent
    Has anyone given any thought to (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 07:05:48 PM EST
    what might be what David Dayen calls the real "killer app" in the draft of the chairmen's report?

    The killer app here is the spending and revenue cap. This is what will basically stop progressive governance permanently. Instead of saying "We as a society want to do certain things for our citizens, and we want to pay for them," this says that you can only do so much, up to about 21% of GDP, before you have to stop. This commenter at Josh Marshall's place noted it right away:

    Doesn't that exceed the mandate here? We are looking to these guys to tell us how to bring the budget into balance, not what the role and size of government ought to be. I would think liberals and conservatives ought to be able to agree in saying, who the hell are these guys to put their finger arbitrarily on the number 21% and tell us that's where it should be (I'd assume conservatives would like to see it lower, and I don't necessarily disagree with the number, but don't know why we'd set it in stone)? Its like my accountant telling me how much my income should be, in addition to how I should balance my family budget.

    [snip]

    That's the real goal here: to permanently shrink government. You could not run the Affordable Care Act under the proposal of capping revenue and the growth of federal health expenditures at GDP+1%/year after 2020. You certainly couldn't run anything improving upon it. You could not run a cap and trade system, even if like health care it was paid for. If revenues are capped, you wouldn't be able to take in money from a carbon tax or a financial transaction tax without reducing income tax revenues, effectively defeating the purpose.

    Some would say that there's no enforcement mechanism for the cap, and that one Congress cannot be bound by another in terms of budget levels. But the enforcement mechanism would be the announcement of the numbers themselves, and the Village self-policing that would go on if any Congress dared exceed it. There would be enormous pressure to stay within the confines of a report passed by Congress and signed by the President.

    And that's why, contrary to those world-weary types who think this thing cannot pass, we should fear this proposal. Sooner or later, Republicans will come around to the fact that this deficit reduction plan uses 75% spending solutions and 25% revenue solutions, and then locks those in over time to make any increases impossible. You can already see this in the initial reviews. In fact, they've already started the pivot to saying that 21% of GDP for spending is too high. And then you have willing dupes like Kent Conrad saying that he'd be willing to sacrifice a political career for this plan. He'd be sacrificing a political party.

    I hadn't focused on this part at all, although I do remember it bothering me in the background - when I read this, I understood why.

    As for labels, I'm an unabashed liberal, for all that that matters, and I admit to getting more defiant about it over the last couple of years; I don't run from it, I'm not afraid of it.

    Don't quite understand the obsession with them, but maybe I'm not a Serious enough person...

    Interesting also (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by cal1942 on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 02:20:43 AM EST
    that a revenue cap is the first item and the last item is deficit reduction.

    If this commission was charged to examine budget balancing then why would a revenue cap be the first order of business?

    The only answer is the above - a subterfuge to cripple government.

    A responsible lawmaker should take one look at this and immediately reject it as nonsense.  Any publicly elected official who says he/she will study it is an unfit moron.

    Parent

    Yes, I saw that (none / 0) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 07:33:18 PM EST
    Real bad recommendation and I agree with what kind of consequences it could have.  

    Parent
    LABEL: democratic socialist (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 08:23:50 PM EST
    The Vermont Independent said that he will work with members of Congress, labor unions, seniors' organizations and others to develop alternative suggestions. And while he didn't get into the weeds, he did offer a few general areas that he hopes to target, including ending Bush-era tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans, chopping off Cold War-era Pentagon programs and eliminating of tax credits for big oil companies.

    The likelihood that a progressive alternative for deficit reduction would get a vote in the Senate, let alone a hearing, is slimmer than the chances of Simpson and Bowles' recommendations making it to the floor unscathed. But Sander's effort isn't necessarily about getting a vote. Rather, there is, currently, one blueprint being offered for the task of deficit reduction and it's largely anathema to the progressive community. Having a second proposal out there serves the purpose of giving the negotiations a bit of bearing.

    "We all know that there are a number of fair and progressive ways to address the deficit crisis that would not harm the middle class and those who have already lost their jobs, homes, life savings and ability to send their kids to college," Sanders writes, in a letter to those he's inviting for discussions. "The time has come to put these proposals into a package so that the progressive view becomes a part of the national discussion." LINK

    Go Bernie, go.

    Self Identification (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by cal1942 on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 02:24:35 AM EST
    polls are worthless.

    What the Village people don't get is that ordinary people don't often think of conservative, moderate and liberal the same way that the DC crowd does.


    Among the many scams (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by cal1942 on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 02:40:21 AM EST
    in the CFC is the idea that Social Security is part of the budget.

    It's NOT a part of the budget.

    The budget, the one that's in deficit is based on appropriations.  Social Security is not an appropriation it is a self supporting program.

    Social Security benefits have nothing to do with the deficit.

    What I (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 12, 2010 at 06:21:06 PM EST
    think is misleading to many people about the label "centrist" is that people think it means you are in the middle of every issue. Actually to me centrist means that you may hold some views from the right and some from the left. I categorize myself left of center because of where my political stances fall on the spectrum.  Of course, the political spectrum is always moving so I guess what constitutes a centrist would also change over the years.

    I'm old enough to remember Reagan and he was pretty far right for the times but now he would probably fall in the middle of the spectrum. Heck, by GOP standards he would be a "cut and runner" in foreign policy.

    The lantern finally found an honest man (none / 0) (#35)
    by diogenes on Sat Nov 13, 2010 at 06:47:44 PM EST
    "I always refer to my self as a Centrist, in part because I think it is expedient..."