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Monday Morning Open Thread

Your Monday Krugman:

Mr. Obama still has immense power, if he chooses to use it. At home, he has the veto pen, control of the Senate and the bully pulpit. He still has substantial executive authority to act on things like mortgage relief — there are billions of dollars not yet spent, not to mention the enormous leverage the government has via its ownership of Fannie and Freddie. Abroad, he still leads the world’s greatest economic power — and one area where he surely would get bipartisan support would be taking a tougher stand on China and other international bad actors. But none of this will matter unless the president can find it within himself to use his power, to actually take a stand.

Open thread.

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    I think he's been reading (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:00:11 AM EST
    me. :D

    Ezra Klein (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:14:12 AM EST
    wrote an interesting article recently that addresses the policy/process question and he links to Yglesias, who writes in his article:

    I'm not surprised that liberals don't like the Simpson-Bowles proposals and I'm not surprised that people who aren't liberal disagree with liberals about that. But I am surprised that there are people out there professing to be surprised that liberals are hostile to the proposal. But what are liberals supposed to think? It's a proposal hashed out between a conservative Republican and a moderate Democrat. So of course liberals don't like it. Imagine the conservative reaction to a deficit proposal written by Lincoln Chaffee and Russ Feingold.

    I think some people want us to applaud Obama for not pandering, but in reality he does pander, just not to liberals.  There is some policy benefit to be gained from demanding to be pandered to, IMO.

    Parent

    Completely wrong way to address the (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:33:41 AM EST
    "Reverse Robin Hood" proposals of Simpson-Bowles. IMO the discussion should be based solely around the fact that the policies are horrible and the entire commission should be dissolved immediately.

    If the pundits feel a real need to go beyond that statement, discuss the issue and leave ideology out of the discussion. The issue is very simple do the majority of the people in the U.S. want to cut Social Security and Medicare benefits for more tax cuts for rich individuals and corporations. Is making it impossible for many of the elderly to survive an American value?

    Parent

    Before any of those on the commission (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by hairspray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:08:59 PM EST
    begin negotiating away things that cost a lot of money, an important fact must be addressed. Today 1% of the richest Americans take almost 25% of the country's wealth compared to that same 1% taking less than 10% of the country's wealth 35 years ago.  A maldistribution of wealth must be addressed FIRST.  After that the other issues can be examined in that light.  We need someone like a lefty Ross Perot telling us the elephant in the room is this fact. And americans need to get up in arms about this.

    Parent
    Actually that one percent (none / 0) (#160)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 08:40:30 AM EST
    owns more than 33 percent of the wealth.

    Parent
    Regardless of who (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:51:24 AM EST
    hashed it out, the proposals are unacceptable to liberals because they are terrible policy. It wouldn't matter if Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny had created this proposal.

    And Krugman is right. The commission's mandate wasn't to come up with a laundry list of proposals for us to debate and choose from. It was supposed to come up with a deficit reduction package that could be passed in toto by congress. Anyone who says 'but they had some good proposals in there' is missing the point. The commission is a total failure and should be completely ignored.

    Parent

    Agree with you (none / 0) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:13:39 AM EST
    and I belong to the same group as you do.

    Parent
    Clinton and Reagan have in common (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by observed on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:07:30 AM EST
    that they executed effective changes in the middle of their administration.
    Change was possible with Reagan because he was a senile puppet, and with Clinton because he is intelligent and flexible.
    Obama seems to have a W.-like stubbornness and unwillingness to admit error.

    Except When (5.00 / 8) (#19)
    by The Maven on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:20:02 AM EST
    he's admitting to precisely the wrong kind of error:  not being bipartisan enough.  As noted in the NYT's Caucus blog,
    President Obama refused to acknowledge that he had underestimated how hard it would be to change the way Washington works.

    But as the president returned home on Sunday to face an even more rigidly divided capital city, Mr. Obama went even further: he blamed himself for the failure to do what he had repeatedly promised: to change the tone.

    He said his own "obsessive" focus on implementing the right policies had led him to ignore a part of the reason voters handed him a mandate in 2008.

    "I neglected some things that matter a lot to people, and rightly so: maintaining a bipartisan tone in Washington," he told reporters in a brief question-and-answer session aboard Air Force One as he returned from a 10-day trip abroad. "I'm going to redouble my efforts to go back to some of those first principles," he promised.


    Yeah, clearly the main reason that voters turned towards the Republicans in the elections was because Obama had neglected to maintain a bipartisan tone and that he was too obsessed with implementing the "right" policies -- I can't even begin to describe the scope of that type of cluelessness.

    Parent
    Could it be that the same people who put Reagan (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by mogal on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:25:49 AM EST
    and father and son Bush in office also put Obama in office? Just think GE and MSNBC as one example.

    Parent
    The banksters (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by sj on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:46:23 AM EST
    provided the seed money for O.

    Parent
    Agree, but it is (none / 0) (#16)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:18:57 AM EST
    BO who has dug in his heels or his advisers, or a combo of both?

    Parent
    GEEZUZ (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by cal1942 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:12:56 AM EST
    Obama has the final say.  To put all of this off on his staff or leave Obama an out by suggesting that staff is responsible is ridiculous.

    His team picked the staff with his approval, he is the final arbiter of policy coming out of the White House.

    His staff is terrible but it's HIS staff.

    If it were other than that Obama would be even less qualified than he's already demonstrated.

    Parent

    One legged man in an ... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by dead dancer on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:16:52 AM EST
    But none of this will matter unless the president can find it within himself to use his power, to actually take a stand.

    The Obama team has no offense, and their defense is second string. Get ready for an arse kicking.

    It appears... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 08:48:12 AM EST
    the bloodsuckers have developed a taste for bloodsuckers...bedbugs infest the Manhattan, Brooklyn, & Bronx DA's offices within the past year...Manhattan twice.

    This could be a sign of intelligent life:)

    They've already (none / 0) (#71)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:30:08 PM EST
    Sucked the blood dry from the prisoners.  :)

    Parent
    Oh well... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:10:14 PM EST
    scratch that intelligent life theory...must be mindless beasts to feast on the feasted, too cold!

    Parent
    And fashion models (none / 0) (#84)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:34:35 PM EST
    Who weigh 12 pounds - they were probably starving!

    Parent
    I feel as though this should not be news (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 08:57:49 AM EST
    but such is our political dynamic (WaPo via Steve Benen):

    The advisers are deeply concerned about winning back political independents, who supported Obama two years ago by an eight-point margin but backed Republicans for the House this year by 19 points. To do so, they think he must forge partnerships with Republicans on key issues and make noticeable progress on his oft-repeated campaign pledge to change the ways of Washington.

    Even more important, senior administration officials said, Obama will need to oversee tangible improvements in the economy. They cannot just keep arguing, as Democrats did during the recent campaign, that things would have been worse if not for administration policies.  [emphasis mine]

    At least they realize there's a problem.  

    Their answer to the problem (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:06:49 AM EST
    To do so, they think he must forge partnerships with Republicans on key issues and make noticeable progress on his oft-repeated campaign pledge to change the ways of Washington.

    The Republicans don't do partnerships. The only "compromise" legislation that will be passed will be strictly conservative legislation and only after the Republicans have publicly humiliate the president and the Democrats.

    It will make great theater. Let the kabuki continue. The only people who will be harmed will be the poor and the middle class. The rich will thrive.

    Parent

    More Krugman (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 08:59:58 AM EST
    In retrospect, the roots of current Democratic despond go all the way back to the way Mr. Obama ran for president. Again and again, he defined America's problem as one of process, not substance -- we were in trouble not because we had been governed by people with the wrong ideas, but because partisan divisions and politics as usual had prevented men and women of good will from coming together to solve our problems. And he promised to transcend those partisan divisions.
    ...
    Even given the economy's troubles, however, the administration's efforts to limit the political damage were amazingly weak. There were no catchy slogans, no clear statements of principle; the administration's political messaging was not so much ineffective as invisible. How many voters even noticed the ever-changing campaign themes -- does anyone remember the "Summer of Recovery" -- that were rolled out as catastrophe loomed?



    I wish we could get one thing straight: (5.00 / 8) (#21)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:31:22 AM EST
    this isn't a matter of the power not being there, it's a matter of Obama, and the Democratic caucus, picking and choosing when and where they want to exercise that power.  And when you look at where the power has been brought to bear, and where it has not, it ought to be fairly obvious which interests these Dems are serving, and which ones they are not.

    How many more times do we have to bemoan the fact that the interests of everyday Americans are being subordinated to the interests of the wealthy and powerful before we conclude that that's the way they want it?  

    At what point do we acknowledge that the reason Obama has been less-than-protective of a host of rights is because he's less comfortable with protecting the power reserved in the people than he is in keeping the balance of power in his own control?

    Whatever "re-tooling" will be done in the aftermath of the mid-terms is not - NOT - going to focus on moving to the left, it's going to be all about the center, about wooing back independents and "working with" Republicans and conservatives to reach consensus...in other words, more of the same.

    With all due respect to Krugman, Obama absolutely knows he has the power to do what needs to be done, one way or the other; it's time to stop pretending he just hasn't had time to read the WH owner's manual.

    So, if he's not going to work with us, it's time to work around him, as much as possible; he should understand that he consigns us to irrelevance at his own political peril - and we need to understand that we consign ourselves to irrelevance at our own peril.  


    You know, I don't think that (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:17:33 PM EST
    Obama has much imagination.  I don't think that he is all that clever where it comes to understanding people which definitely limits his ability to really understand our democratic government.

    AND I think that he is a fairly rigid ideologue - probably because the kind of people who lack imagination tend to need to latch onto ideological frameworks so that they can know what to do and where to be.

    His power is frustrated largely by the specific ideology to which he's attached himself.  He picked a vague middle of the road ideology that is entirely defined by what he perceives to be the edges of the road - meaning that there is no there there - there is no core value other than comparative values defined by what other people think and are doing - not by principles intrinsic to the ideology itself.

    So, I am not entirely sure that he is aware of his power and certain that he's not got the acumen to use it effectively; and on some level, having seen how he has performed to date, I am not sure that I really want him to become fully aware of his power.  I don't see any core values that would make he trust his judgment.

    Parent

    Awareness of his power (none / 0) (#75)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:04:13 PM EST
    clearly in evidence when the arm-twisting of Congressional Dems was used to get votes for the stimulus.

    I don't think the Pres is naive; I think the core you write about is more the point.

    Parent

    I don't think that he is naive (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:11:16 PM EST
    either.  I think that he lacks the imagination and the core to negotiate the world as effectively as he could were he to have more of those two attributes.

    He seems to view himself almost exclusively as a mediator.  Even when he is picking a side like when he goes after Congressional Dems, I think that his rationale for doing so is basically all about relativism and that it has very little to do with what would be right or wrong actions to take.  The actions themselves are not assessed on the merits - only within the context of the political landscape that he perceives.

    He's the kind of guy who can't just enjoy a hot fudge sundae.  He has to think about what other people think about hot fudge sundaes and whether or not the approve of them etc., etc. etc.

    Parent

    Chicago Foreclosures (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:52:56 AM EST
    Chicago Sheriff Thomas Dart's refuses to enforce foreclosures. When he had a sample of foreclosures reviewed, he found that only five percent of them had all their paperwork in order.

    After reading about problems such as banks "robo-signing" foreclosure documents without verifying their accuracy, Dart asked that attorneys for mortgage companies sign something personally confirming that evictions are justified. None did. So Dart has refused to honor their requests.
    ...
    In Illinois, Dart said in an interview that, after hearing about improperly prepared paperwork at major lenders, he and his deputies pulled an admittedly unscientific sample of 400 foreclosure cases processed by the courts. He said they found that only 20 of them had the proper paperwork and that the others were missing "very significant" documents. link



    That's what I like to hear... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:22:11 AM EST
    any sheriff who takes his/her job seriously should be doing the same thing....protect and serve your community, not the banks.

    Parent
    Posse Comitatus (none / 0) (#41)
    by Rojas on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:43:38 AM EST
    OMG

    Parent
    Pardon me... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:30:46 AM EST
    for agreeing with Matt Drudge, but he nails it today...big pic of a nun getting molested at the airport with the headline..."The Terrorists Have Won."  I'll spare y'all the link.

    No kidding Matt, shame it took a Brand D pres to make you realize it.

    Troubling reports of small children getting the full body treatment too...and my little nieces are off on a flight to this week for family vacay...I told my bro-in-law to keep a close eye on the TSA gropers.

    Did you read this... (none / 0) (#55)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:20:54 AM EST
    Pilots urged to avoid body scanning

    Unions are encouraging pilots to request private pat-downs. USAPA urges members to make sure a witness is present during the procedure.
    USAPA refers to incidents where Transportation Security Administration officers may have implemented the screening technique inappropriately.
    One pilot described his experience as "sexual molestation," according to Cleary's letter. Bates wrote, "There is absolutely no denying that the enhanced pat-down is a demeaning experience."

    As someone who will opt for a pat-down instead of the body scanning....that line worries me.

    Parent

    All the flyers... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:53:30 AM EST
    are getting a taste of what drug suspects have experienced for years...legalized misdemeanor sexual assault.

    Good for the pilots, maybe their clout can put a stop to it...we certainly don't have any.

    Parent

    No scanner for me, ever (none / 0) (#66)
    by republicratitarian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:06:29 PM EST
    This was a good one on the same thing.

    Parent
    do they really call them (none / 0) (#68)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:17:26 PM EST
    "groin checks"?! How can they NOT see a problem with that?!

    so glad my last flight was pre-"enhanced" pat downs . . .

    Parent

    digby (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:50:18 AM EST
    Who knew that Peter Orszag was such a comedian. He tells us that the social security shortfall years from now has nothing to do with the federal deficit but says it should be cut anyway. Evidently, it is necessary to solve a problem that doesn't exist in order to establish "credibility."

    [E]ven though Social Security is not a major contributor to our long-term deficits, reforming it could help the federal government establish much-needed credibility on solving out-year fiscal problems -- which in turn could improve the political prospects for providing additional short-term stimulus for the economy. All of which suggests that Democrats in Congress should support the basic construct of the Bowles-Simpson proposal, while arguing for some changes to improve it. That has not, however, been their reaction thus far.

    ...
    He concludes with this side-splitter:

    It is therefore crucial that the Obama administration recognize the opportunity and respond to it more positively. The White House has been handed a highly progressive reform plan for Social Security that could attract Republican support as well. link



    No surprise (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by cal1942 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:23:06 AM EST
    As I've said before, we're living in a nation sized insane asylum.

    I'll also bet that Orszag doesn't have to worry about living on Social Security.  Any takers?

    Parent

    Candidate Obama stated he (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:47:58 PM EST
    is "an empty vessel."

    From "The Audacity of Hope" (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:54:17 PM EST
    "I serve as a blank screen, on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views." He notifies readers that "my treatment of the issues is often partial and incomplete."


    Parent
    I always remember (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by kmblue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:03:33 PM EST
     the "blank screen" thang.  For once, Obama speaks of himself with complete accuracy.  

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by lentinel on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 02:25:12 PM EST
    "Empty vessel" says it for me.

    Parent
    The irony (none / 0) (#120)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:51:08 PM EST
    is that the country needs most right now is a bad guy to point the finger at and absorb all of the rage over the economy, regardless of whether he deserves it.

    Whether you are a liberal or a conservative, Obama is what's wrong with the country.

    He was completely right.

    Parent

    I interpret (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by kmblue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:18:51 PM EST
    Obama's comment a different away.  

    He's saying that people can project whatever their desires are onto him, as if he is a movie screen.

    But don't blame the screen--and don't hold the screen to account for what it promised.

    After all, who is dumb enough to trust a blank screen?  ;)

    (daily kos)

    Parent

    Not so. (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by lentinel on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:02:58 PM EST
    What the country is looking for, and has been looking for, is someone who capable and determined to improve the lives of the American people.

    I suppose Obama referred to himself as an empty vessel as a means of describing himself as someone open to ideas. Another interpretation from his point of view, I suppose, is that people project onto to him what they wish to see.

    Phooey.

    He is an empty vessel because he is empty.
    He exhibits no convictions about anything.

    Parent

    It's just me, (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by lentinel on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 02:23:08 PM EST
    but I would rather that Obama exercise his power by, say, ending the war in Afghanistan than by starting a row with China, our largest creditor

    Well, Mr. Budget Czar, (none / 0) (#3)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:12:52 AM EST
    (you got MY vote, anyway,) what's your take on the Cam Newton situation? I have some thoughts, which include bad actors, but not the principle actors... think this is a possibility?

    Yes (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:22:37 AM EST
    but people with a conciliatory nature rarely use that power. They hand it over to others as we have seen so far.

    GOProud and TeaParty (none / 0) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 08:43:30 AM EST
    say stay from social issues:

    Dear Senator McConnell and Representative Boehner

    On behalf of limited government conservatives everywhere we write to urge you and your colleagues in Washington to put forward a legislative agenda in the next Congress that reflects the principles of the Tea Party movement.
    Poll after poll confirms that the Tea Party's laser focus on issues of economic freedom and limited government resonated with the American people on Election Day. The Tea Party movement galvanized around a desire to return to constitutional government and against excessive spending, taxation and government intrusion into the lives of the American people.
    The Tea Party movement is a non-partisan movement, focused on issues of economic freedom and limited government, and a movement that will be as vigilant with a Republican-controlled Congress as we were with a Democratic-controlled Congress.
    This election was not a mandate for the Republican Party, nor was it a mandate to act on any social issue, nor should it be interpreted as a political blank check.
    Already, there are Washington insiders and special interest groups that hope to co-opt the Tea Party's message and use it to push their own agenda - particularly as it relates to social issues. We are disappointed but not surprised by this development. We recognize the importance of values but believe strongly that those values should be taught by families and our houses of worship and not legislated from Washington, D.C.
    We urge you to stay focused on the issues that got you and your colleagues elected and to resist the urge to run down any social issue rabbit holes in order to appease the special interests.
    The Tea Party movement is not going away and we intend to continue to hold Washington accountable.
    Sincerely,

    Atrios (Sunday) (none / 0) (#9)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 08:52:16 AM EST
    And They're Back

    Congress returns tomorrow. Not optimistic they'll do anything good, and worried they'll do something awful. I'll just remain in crouch position until the final quack.



    Watched Charlie this morning (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:14:05 AM EST
    I dunno what to think at this point :)  But if this is going to be a dogfight Charlie can be a dog :)

    I certainly hope HE doesn't have control of the (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dan the Man on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:17:52 AM EST
    Senate.  Democrats have control of the Senate not Obama.  Obama almost lost the Senate for them.  Harry Reid did not re-win his seat because of Obama.  Reid won it despite of Obama.  If Senate Democrats had a brain and want to win elections (which is not a given), they should look at the policies Reid ran on to win re-election -- because Obama won't care to look at it.

    Reid (none / 0) (#153)
    by cal1942 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:27:12 AM EST
    Won because of organization and his opponent was a complete lunatic.  Even at that it was close.

    Parent
    He has taken a stand (none / 0) (#17)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:19:32 AM EST

    Don't forget those big unions and big corporations that got Obamacare waivers.

    Why do some still expect O to ... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Yes2Truth on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:19:38 AM EST

    be anything other than a shill for Wall Street and
    the military/security establishment -- oh, an also
    the insurance industry SS privatizers etc.?

    Dime Dropper of the Week... (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:31:03 AM EST
    Power trippin' councilman breaks up a bake sale via dime drop....in a just world he might be charged with child abuse and endangerment.

    this is his excuse? (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:01:37 AM EST
    "In hindsight, maybe I should have done that, but I wasn't sure if I was allowed to do that," he said. "The police are trained to deal with these sorts of issues."

    how hard is it to approach a couple of kids and mention it to them and suggest they ask their parents to check into it?

    Parent

    Easy there sparky, don't go talking sense (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by republicratitarian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:23:39 AM EST
    Sh*t... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:23:16 AM EST
    how hard is it to buy a cupcake.

    Parent
    I suspect you prefer brownies :) (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by republicratitarian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:29:44 AM EST
    Cupcake, cookie, brownie... (none / 0) (#82)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:13:49 PM EST
    peanut butter cup, tootsie roll, straight ganja butter...all good bro!

    But we know these were straight-edge treats, or else the boys woulda been charged as adults:)

    Parent

    How dare those kids! (none / 0) (#42)
    by republicratitarian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:45:08 AM EST
    Try sell baked goods on public property? Where is Uncle Sam's take? Kidding of course. At least they weren't arrested and charged as adults.

    Parent
    Maybe its better they learn young... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:52:30 AM EST
    that the free market is a myth...every dollar earned is subject to beuracratic review....sorry boys, you're not worthy...next time try a kickback or bribe first.

    Parent
    Simplistic (none / 0) (#22)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:37:26 AM EST
    That's the way so much of the analysis of Obama seems from Krugman and the left.  Reading these comments is a mirror image of what's being said on Red State and Malkin.

    Krugman at least acknowledges the limits of Obama's power to move legislation through congress.  Almost every comment made on this topic thus far, for example, assumes that if Obama steps up and "fights" (whatever that means) for a more liberal agenda that somehow, someway, congress will heed his call, the republican majority in the house will disappear and the barely democratic senate will fall into line as well.

    We know that won't happen.

    And when Obama looks at what Clinton did, how is he supposed to take from that that he needs to avoid compromise. It worked for Clinton.  

    And the reality is that Obama gave the country the most liberal 2 years of legislation since LBJ. Easily. And after doing that the left is calling him a conservative and painting all of his efforts as terrible.  I mean just read these comments.

    If I were him, I'd start cutting deals on things everyone can agree with and work from there.

    As the last 2 years have shown conclusively, the left side of his base won't give him credit so he needs to do what he can do to fix the economy and ignore everything else.

    He has already cut deals with each (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:44:18 AM EST
    industry on every issue. I definitely expect more of the same.

    Parent
    interesting . . . . (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:00:55 AM EST
    assumes that if Obama steps up and "fights" (whatever that means)

    that you can't figure out what that means . . . .

    Parent

    "Fight" (none / 0) (#51)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:04:54 AM EST
    Well I know what I am told it means.  But I don't call that fighting.  I call that "demanding actions that you know will not occur for the sake of looking more liberal to voters on the left."

    Another synonym for this is "waste of time".

    At the end of the day, Obama is not going to be able to get the policies enacted that people want him to fight for. It is not possible and in fact, there is very little he gets from it in terms of bargaining power. The conservatives aren't going to be MORE willing to compromise because he moved left.  They'll just say NO much faster and with more authority.

    He has to put out proposals that are so clearly right that conservatives can't deny their value.  That means coming to the center.  We all knew this would happen. The first 2 years, Obama pulled off a lot of liberal agenda items (people that say otherwise aren't being objective IMHO). The next 2 years we knew he'd have to come to the middle a bit more.

    I'd rather him do that than waste time and resources fighting a losing battle to prove to 15% of the country that is on the further left that he's a liberal.  They are as likely to believe that as a Tea Party type is to believe that Obama is a moderate.

    So ignore them all and do what you have to do.  That's what I want from him. Cut deals, kiss ass, do whatever.

    Just get the jobs back.  If he does, everything will work out, regardless of how conservatives liberals believe he is.

    The proof of how he's doing isn't satisfying the liberal checklist, it's that d*mn unemployment number.

    Parent

    Deals are already in the works (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:25:56 AM EST
    Deals to "fix" the health insurance legislation to remove the few watered down regulations that remain in the bill. Wait for it coming in soon to D.C. Oh and btw, the mandate will remain since it was the main reason for the legislation.

    Funny how you keep claiming how liberal Obama's legislation in the first two years has been and Obama keeps claiming it was all based on Republican "good ideas." Conservatives are going to continue to pass their agenda and Obama and the Dems are going to continue to do their little "powerless" dance while you continue to clap in the background.

    Parent

    Oh, brother... (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:54:19 AM EST
    Well I know what I am told it means.  But I don't call that fighting.  I call that "demanding actions that you know will not occur for the sake of looking more liberal to voters on the left."

    So, I see you are operating out of the Obama dictionary, borrowed apparently from the Cheshire Cat, for whom words mean whatever he says they do; good to know that "fighting" has nothing to do with leadership - it's just optics.

    Another synonym for this is "waste of time".

    Not in my dictionary.

    At the end of the day, Obama is not going to be able to get the policies enacted that people want him to fight for. It is not possible and in fact, there is very little he gets from it in terms of bargaining power. The conservatives aren't going to be MORE willing to compromise because he moved left.  They'll just say NO much faster and with more authority.

    So, why, pray tell, was he elected, if not to fight for the policies that matter to people - and that he ran on?  Did I miss the memo where the Office of the POTUS became the Office of the National Community Organizer?  This is the guy who ran on "Yes! We Can!" and now you want to tell us it's about, "Well, No, We Really Can't, Especially If There's Nothing In It For Me."  Splendid.  I'm sure that will be one winning Campaign 2012 bumper sticker...

    He has to put out proposals that are so clearly right that conservatives can't deny their value.  That means coming to the center.  We all knew this would happen. The first 2 years, Obama pulled off a lot of liberal agenda items (people that say otherwise aren't being objective IMHO). The next 2 years we knew he'd have to come to the middle a bit more.

    Uh, no he doesn't.  Leaders define the center, they don't let others do it for them, and there is no reason why - if he were a believer in progressive policy - he could not have defined the center quite a bit left of where it is now, with the strength of Congressional majorities and very high approval ratings behind him; he manages to get what he wants when he wants it, so I cannot and will not accept that he needed to pander to the right.  Ever.

    As for Obama pulling off a lot of liberal agenda items, surely you jest.  Or else you are so conservative that you think what has been "accomplished" - or, as I like to think of it, "shoved down our throats whether we liked it or not," actually is liberal.

    I'd rather him do that than waste time and resources fighting a losing battle to prove to 15% of the country that is on the further left that he's a liberal.  They are as likely to believe that as a Tea Party type is to believe that Obama is a moderate.

    So ignore them all and do what you have to do.  That's what I want from him. Cut deals, kiss ass, do whatever.

    See, it's statements like this that reveal your conservative nature: it's not about "proving" anything, it's about advocating for the best policy.  That's what leaders do - they lead.  They lead people to a better place where they can see and feel the improvement in their lives - and then they are yours forever.  Ignore them, ignore what you know will lift them up, and you lose - we all lose.  

    And not to worry, if Obama is nothing else, he's really big on cutting deals; too bad they don't seem to benefit the average citizen, though - he's got some work to do there if, in fact, he gives a crap.

    Just get the jobs back.  If he does, everything will work out, regardless of how conservatives liberals believe he is.
     

    Is he still awaiting the arrival of the magic economy wand?  Is there something getting in the way of leading on policy that would help the economy?  I mean, he thinks HAMP is a fine program and we don't need HOLC because some people who don't deserve help might get some.  He still thinks tax cuts for businesses will create jobs when we know that those cuts have not created one single new job for anyone.  He's floundering, in spite of a wealth of advice about what to do to get things moving.

    The proof of how he's doing isn't satisfying the liberal checklist, it's that d*mn unemployment number.

    Well, only if you think that on every other issue, Obama and the Dems have just been knocking them out of the park.  For reasons that escape me, this seems to be all about making sure Dems get re-elected, regardless of what they're doing on every other front, as long as they help get the unemployment numbers down.

    The truth is, they basically suck.


    Parent

    That pretty much sums it up. (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:04:59 PM EST
    The truth is, they basically suck.


    Parent
    Leaders Define the Center (none / 0) (#109)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:24:11 PM EST
    With all due respect that is absolute hogwash.

    The center is for the most part incredibly stable. On a few issues (gay marriage, drug laws, etc.) there has been a noticeable shift, but on most issues the center is very constant regardless of who is president.

    In addition, Obama is facing the most massive and concentrated conservative media force faced by any president.  Conservatives now control cable news, radio and some of the most popular sites online.

    Those items are much more likely to "move the center" than anything Obama is able to do.  The man isn't Jesus. He's just President. The best leaders we've evenr had (Lincoln for example) could move the center of the country only small amounts. No one has been able to move the center in the ways that you are discussing.

    Let me say that again.

    No president has been able to move the center of the country in the way that you are now indicating. Not Reagan. Not Kennedy. Not FDR. Not Lincoln.

    No one.

    But that's your test of whether Obama is being a good "leader".

    Well let me answer it before we even get to the end: Obama is going to fail your impossible test, so let's move into the realm of what is actually possible.

    Parent

    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:51:57 PM EST
    That you blame the media

    In addition, Obama is facing the most massive and concentrated conservative media force faced by any president.

    When no candidate, nor president, in history had the backing of an adoring media for so long.

    Parent

    And plus (none / 0) (#111)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:27:37 PM EST
    You don't know me like that.

    If I am a liberal, accept that I am a liberal.  Liberals can disagree on what is possible and not possible and how things are going without you reading my mind, dipping into your book of liberal certification criteria and deeming me a conservative.

    Let's keep it constructive. Calling someone you don't know a "conservative" is fighting words on my block.

    I assume we're all liberals here, but liberals with different opinions.  We're here to hash things out and have a good discussion, not make judgment calls about people we don't know.

    Parent

    PS (none / 0) (#112)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:31:28 PM EST
    If the criteria you are using to define liberal was applied to Clinton's presidency, he'd be a conservative too.

    Just saying. DADT, DOMA, repeal of Glass Steagal.  A lot of the stuff that Obama is being pounded for were enacted on Bill's watch.

    Now I love Bill to death and think he was fantastic, but I am not the one creating these standards of conservative/liberal for the POTUS.  If you hate Obama's methods but like what Clinton did, you've got some work to do to make those opinions work consistently.

    Obama didn't perfect Triangulation and compromise.  Bill did.

    Parent

    Get (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:52:45 PM EST
    back to me when Obama starts vetoing GOP legislation like Bill did.

    Parent
    Or raised taxes when he (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by hairspray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:27:07 PM EST
    was skewered by everyone.  It was the right thing to do.  I want Obama to do things because it is the "right thing to do" not because we have to keep everyone in the boat happy.

    Parent
    Acknowledge (none / 0) (#124)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:59:06 PM EST
    that he did something good when he does.

    I think he's going to do just that when it comes to HCR and a number of other issues.

    He hasn't had to do it yet but I think he will.

    Parent

    I will (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 06:18:16 PM EST
    be more than glad to but I don't have high hopes. If he thinks that he was too "liberal" by passing it, he might just sign what the GOP hands up.

    Parent
    On job creation, per Obama (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:29:36 PM EST
    Larry Summers, has done a "Heckuva Job."

    Among Summers' many recent failures, the biggest is probably how completely he underestimated the scale of the economic downturn, which is best expressed by Summers' refusal to even present to Obama suggestions by Christine Romer that the stimulus might need to be as large as $1.2 trillion.  link

    9.6% is a wee bit higher than less than 8% but what the heck it was a "Heckuva Job."

    Parent

    heh, interesting how (none / 0) (#53)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:12:21 AM EST
    leadership never entered in your thought process . . . .

    That's what I want from him. Cut deals, kiss ass, do whatever.  . .

    Oy.

    Parent

    "Leadership" (none / 0) (#125)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:03:42 PM EST
    is just a word and a concept.

    If Obama sat in a hole in the ground and only came out to eat and relieve himself but found a way to get the employment number down 2-3 points, I'd be just fine with it.

    I want results.  I don't care how you do it.  The country and the congress are more partisan than ever before. The moderates just got cleaned out of congress for the most part.

    In that environment, it's silly to think that he's going to be able to move the opposition to support things his way.  

    I voted for Obama because I wanted someone who would find a way to create a positive outcome and be pragmatic when others would not.

    For me, the test of his greatness starts now, and success (at least for me) isn't defined by how far left he can move us. It is defined by how effective the policies and actions he takes are in solving problems.

    I am a liberal but I am not so arrogant as to think that liberals have the right position on every issue. People that believe that are no different than Hannity and Beck IMHO.

    Just solve the freaking problems and stop focusing on what to call the solutions.

    Parent

    You know what? (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 06:20:37 PM EST
    Your right about the moderates being wiped out however that at least gives Obama an opportunity. Now, whether he's willing to do it or not. Frankly, gridlock is preferable to what he's planning to do so far.

    At least if he stops the GOP from implementing their radical agenda, then maybe he has a chance but so far he's been trying to sell "reducing the deficit" while handing out money to millionaires. It just doesn't work that way.

    Parent

    Obama caves (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:02:01 AM EST
    That's the difference. He caves. Every time. He caves. He does not want to lead, he wants to facilitate. And he is, at heart, more conservative than he is liberal, by far.

    If he TRIED to lead, if he TRIED to stand up for something and no back down, if he just TRIED, a lot more people would have a lot more respect him and a lot more hope for that changey stuff.

    One thing that doesn't help is is the constant excuse-making. I have never heard a pol have more excuses made for him than for Obama. It is embarrassing.  His failures are his own, and that he doesn't seem to understand the true nature of those failures, well, that's par for the course with him.

    Parent

    Cave? Or kabuki? (none / 0) (#144)
    by Pacific John on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 09:58:19 PM EST
    Everyone who has ever bought a used car knows you start low to end up in the middle. Obama's not dumb. He's not as brilliant as his fawning supporters think, but he can do math. In each negotiation, most people here have known what was likely obvious to Obama, that the eventual agreements would be conservative.

    It's much less frustrating when you aren't burdened with the belief that he is, like us here, left of center.

    Parent

    Definitely kabuki (none / 0) (#145)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:48:02 PM EST
    Obama got the legislation that he wanted.

    Parent
    Okay, so which is it: (5.00 / 8) (#31)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:22:48 AM EST
    is he powerless to make Congress do anything, or is he responsible for (your words) the "most liberal 2 years of legislation?"  For what it's worth, some of us would regard "fighting for a more liberal agenda" as actual leadership, but you're telling us that fighting is pointless because it wouldn't change anything.  So, he's just kind of hanging out organizing bipartisan coalitions with a goal of everyone being real nice to each other, because politely cutting the legs out from under the average Joe is so much more civilized that way.

    And I don't know whether you've noticed, but (1) it's been almost 18 years since Bill Clinton first took office and 10 years since he left, (2) there are a lot of different people sitting in those Congressional seats now and (3) there's been a whole lot of dynamic from 1993 to now that has quite a lot to do with where we are.  Obama could be a Bill Clinton clone, but he would still have to govern and lead, with no guarantee that anything would turn out the same, so it might be a better use of your time to stop bringing Clinton into every conversation about Obama.

    That last sentence of yours is a doozy.  "The left" should have been able to figure out that Obama wasn't really interested in them beyond their ability to send money and vote for him, but we're two years in, and Obama is not just actively ignoring the left, but is holding them up to ridicule, and if you think that's just because he's bitter that he's not getting enough credit, you should consider (1) whether he really has the maturity to be president if this is how he's going to react to criticism from people who, at one time, supported him or (2) whether he was never on board with the left's agenda to begin with, or (3) both.

    You and I are not going to agree that Obama is liberal in any way, shape or form; you can insist that he is until you turn blue, but it won't make it so - what he's done doesn't make it so, what he intends to do won't make it so.

    As for him just going ahead and doing what he can do to fix the economy - what's stopping him?  What stopped him from the beginning?  When you figure out whose interests have been served, I think you'll have your answer.


    Parent

    It's #3 (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by mogal on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:30:50 AM EST
    Obama is a liberal (none / 0) (#54)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:15:26 AM EST
    You are right. We won't agree on this point.

    But if you talk to any political scholar out there, almost all of them agree that his two years have been extremely progressive and effective.  There are a number of studies that go through, law and regulation by law and regulation, and analyze his track record that support my point.

    And the bottom line is this:

    35 million people will have healthcare that didn't and he eliminated pre-existing conditions.  That alone would make it the most progressive 2 years in a loooong time.

    Hell, even Krugman (who those here trust) says that. This was how he viewed healthcare reform when it passed:

    "Without question, the campaign of fear was effective: health reform went from being highly popular to wide disapproval, although the numbers have been improving lately. But the question was, would it actually be enough to block reform? And the answer is no. The Democrats have done it. The House has passed the Senate version of health reform, and an improved version will be achieved through reconciliation.  This is, of course, a political victory for President Obama, and a triumph for Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker. But it is also a victory for America's soul. In the end, a vicious, unprincipled fear offensive failed to block reform. This time, fear struck out."

    It wasn't perfect and he was one of the biggest critics of the concessions, but even he acknowledged what it mean on a macro level. Obama fundamentally reframed the entire healthcare apparatus in the country in a more liberal direction.

    If you are arguing that healthcare reform was a conservative's dream, I can't help you because the facts don't matter for you.

    Parent

    8,000 people have health insurance (5.00 / 5) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:45:46 AM EST
    that they did not have before. That is the number who have signed up for the high risk pool.

    Nearly 59 million Americans went without health insurance coverage for at least part of 2010, many of them with conditions or diseases that needed treatment, federal health officials said on Tuesday.

    They said 4 million more Americans went without insurance in the first part of 2010 than during the same time in 2008.

    "Both adults and kids lost private coverage over the past decade," Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, told a news briefing. link

    All people have is legislation that could lead to more people getting health insurance in the distant future. Actual health care under that proposal is debatable. Indications are that other than the mandates for people to purchase overpriced products, large portions of the legislation may not get implemented if funding is cut. Meanwhile, more and more people are unable to afford the cost of health care as insurance premiums skyrocket for less and less coverage. More and more of the expense is being transferred to the individual to the point that actual health care is beyond what people can afford. Of course, that is part of the stated plan. If people forgo treatment due to costs, we will reduce the total spent for health care in the U.S.

    Parent

    Well uhm yeah (none / 0) (#113)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:35:23 PM EST
    The bulk of the provisions don't kick in until 2014.

    So you're right, it's not working now.  Talk to me in 2016 or so about whether it has failed.

    Doing it before the provisions that really matter kick in seems silly.

    [PS: Your numbers don't include kids who got to stay on their parents policies, others who got to stay on their policies despite certain conditions, others who got insurance despite preexisting conditions and thousands of others who have insurance not that would not otherwise.]

    Parent

    My data does say that the number (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:04:03 PM EST
    of people without health insurance went from 45 million to 59 million while Obama and the Dems were making back room deals with the insurance and health care industries. The quote also says that many of the people without coverage had conditions or diseases that needed treatment.

    While the provisions say that insurance must be issued despite preexisting conditions on "new plans", there is no limits to how much the companies can charge.

    A few thousand may have been helped but most people are faced with double digit premium increases for less and less coverage and more out of pocket expenses and 59 million people have been  with out health care in 2010.

    Let me make that even clearer. A few thousand have been helped and millions are worse off than before or have no health care.    

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#128)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:09:12 PM EST
    that we're in the biggest economic recession in decades and people lost their jobs (and insurance) right?

    This bill fills in a lot of gaps but it never purported to fill all of them in or be instantaneous.

    Your position is hard to address because it is basically "HCR didn't solve every problem with healthcare instantly so it is a failure."

    That's one standard for evaluating it. That's just not the standard I'd use. Or for that matter tha=e standard used to evaluate social security for example.

    When FDR got that through it had some provisions that were just flat out racist. By your thinking SS was a complete failure and never should have happened.  We now know that to be a stupid position. SS was refined over the years and is now very good.

    But if we listened to the position you are taking at the time, we wouldn't have it today.

    Parent

    and if we had a REAL public option (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:17:01 PM EST
    in the bill (that also didn't start years down the road), those unemployed/underemployed might just be covered. the bill is not nearly "progressive" enough and all many of us have to look forward to is mandated unaffordable junk insurance in 2014, TYVM.

    Parent
    Yes, and in the biggest economic (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:28:16 PM EST
    recession in decades, with people losing jobs and insurance, what model does Obama decide is the best one, the most uniquely American one we should have?  Why, the employer-based model, of course.  

    And in this big recession, with functional unemployment near 20%, how does Obama address this urgent and critical problem?  Why, by delaying implementation of most of it for four years - I guess this would be the equivalent of arriving at the hospital ER in shock and being parked in the hallway, while the occasional nurse or doctor assured you that if you could just hang on, eventually, you would get some help.  

    Eventually.

    You may not have noticed, but your arguments are not helping your case, but are, in fact, pointing out the insufficiency of the plan to address an urgent problem.

    I bet you still think there's a pony somewhere under all that manure, don't you?  Well, ever hopeful, I guess - good luck!

    Parent

    The question is why did Obama make the (none / 0) (#136)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:56:58 PM EST
    choices he made based on the reality on the ground now. Did Obama not know that we're in the biggest economic recession in decades and people lost their jobs (and insurance) when he chose delaying implementation until 2014? He could have chosen another more practical model than an employer based model when unemployment is growing in leaps and  bounds. He could have chosen a system that would have provided affordable health care now for the millions of people who are uninsured or under insured.

    You're right he did not chose to fill all the gaps or provide much needed health care now. He chose instead to fill the coffers of the health insurance and medical industries rather than providing people with affordable health care. Even after spending almost a trillion dollars the U.S. will pay 2 - 3 times more for health care and 35 - 50% more for prescription drugs than other countries.

     

    Parent

    Social Security (none / 0) (#155)
    by cal1942 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:55:36 AM EST
    Did not change in substance.  The change to Social Security was extended coverage.

    The problem with the health care bill is its dependence on employer provided insurance. A weak reed in a weak economy when so many people are out of work and so many employers are cutting back on or dropping health care insurance.

    While it is great that Medicaid was extended and kids can stay on parents plan until age 26, the fact is that the premise of basing the rest on private insurance is a major substantive flaw.

    Another problem is quite simply that the Obama administration  went for health insurance reform before going all out to improve the economy.  Jobs, jobs, jobs are THE issue and nothing else should be tended to until people are back at work.

    He compromised the recovery act before even submitting it and then accepted what Congress trimmed without so much as a squeak.

    Not at all surprising.

    Extending Medicaid and passing stringent regulations on the health care insurance industry would have been an appropriate start.

    The economy is always the most important issue.  If people are working and confident they'll continue working they're more amenable to change.  

    It's not surprizing that a neo-liberal (a conservative one at that) would consider process and benefits to be more important than jobs.

    Parent

    I do not believe (none / 0) (#165)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 11:03:24 AM EST
    that healthcare reform that eradicated the existing employer based system was possible.  Entire industries would be destroyed, company compensation plans thrown into complete disarray, etc.

    That change was, I firmly believe, too big.

    We probably disagree, but the difference between whether you like or hate HCR seems to be whether the public option was possible and whether you think a sharp move away from employer systems was possible.

    I believe neither. In that context, HCR looks very successful, but i could see why you believe otherwise.

    Agree to disagree I guess. We'll never know.

    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#123)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:55:54 PM EST
    that was the big fail of Obama's plan. It's likely now that most of it will be defunded and we'll be left with buying junk insurance. How do you think that's going to work out?

    Parent
    I think well (none / 0) (#127)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:06:00 PM EST
    because I don't think it will be defunded. I think you are listening to the GOP spin and believing it to be fact for some reason.

    When it happens, you'll have a point. Until then, you are griping about an event that hasn't even happened yet and probably never will.

    Parent

    When the legislation actually helps millions (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:43:32 PM EST
    of people get affordable health care then maybe you will have have a point. Until then, all you have is is the "hope that people will have health insurance" based on a program than hasn't even happened, may never happen and may never provide affordable health care even if it is implemented. If you think that having health insurance is the same as having affordable health care, you have been listening to Dem spin and chose to believe it even though much has been written about people who have insurance not being able to afford health care.

    In the meantime, we are faced with what is actually happening right here, right now. Health insurance premiums are skyrocketing, people are paying more and more for less and less coverage, more health cost are being transferred to individuals. More people are without health care and the number went from 45 million people without health insurance to 59 million people. That is reality people are faced with now.

    The fierce urgency of now stopped the minute Obama became president and turned into maybe sometime down the road. The message is until then just cope and quit whining.  

    Parent

    Mo, I always wondered if (none / 0) (#148)
    by hairspray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:38:06 PM EST
    the Dems simply passed a public option and let the insurance companies keep doing what they were doing without all these regulations, exchanges, etc. Wouldn't that have been a market based competitive model that would have siphoned off patients forcing the private companies to change their profit structure so as to stay in business?

    Parent
    A lot would have depended on how the (none / 0) (#149)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:05:14 AM EST
    public option was structured. IMO the final version of the public option, before it was cut completely, was purposely structured to fail. IOW it was structured so that it would not be able to compete with the insurance companies for sufficient market share to survive. IIRC there was also the very real possibility that it would suffer from adverse selection. The large insurance companies could cherry pick the younger, healthier people and force older sicker people into the public option driving up the costs.

    Would have to go back over a lot of old information to give a more detailed explanation and provide links. Not going to happen tonight for sure. Maybe one of these days I will go back and try to recreate some of the more detailed information.
     

    Parent

    Thanks. I lived in France for a while in the (none / 0) (#174)
    by hairspray on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:39:57 PM EST
    1970's and learned that anyone who had children received "mother's milk money." It started after the war to help the poor but the politicians decided to avoid creating a special category and a bureaucracy so they gave the stipend to everyone.  There was no stigma.  I was told that the costs to administer the program if it was means tested would have been more than if they simply gave a small amount to everyone. I have often thought some form of this concept could be used to compete with pvt for profit health care.  It might have been a start. Maybe not!

    Parent
    Do you (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 06:23:24 PM EST
    not think that the GOP will defund it and Obama will sign it? I mean he's already caving into them on millionaire welfare.

    Parent
    So you think (none / 0) (#156)
    by cal1942 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:59:48 AM EST
    that a GOP controlled House is going to spring for the money.

    Again, what planet are you living on?  Were you born yesterday?

    Parent

    Oh, brother, Part II... (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:15:21 PM EST
    But if you talk to any political scholar out there, almost all of them agree that his two years have been extremely progressive and effective.  There are a number of studies that go through, law and regulation by law and regulation, and analyze his track record that support my point.

    If I talked to a bunch of [insert name of team here] fans, they'd probably tell me the [insert team name] are the best team in the NFL, and they would have the stats to prove their point.  So what?  You might as well tell me that the NYT and the WaPo agree that Obama is a flaming liberal.  Again, so what?  I'm supposed to think what some scholar says I should think based on his or her "studies?"  I prefer to think for myself, but thanks.

    35 million people will have healthcare that didn't and he eliminated pre-existing conditions.  That alone would make it the most progressive 2 years in a loooong time.

    Correction: 35 million people might be able to get health insurance, although there is some doubt whether they will be able to afford to do that AND get the health CARE they need; mandating that people get insurance from the same industry that has driven this whole thing off the cliff is probably the least progressive thing that could have been done - especially since there is so little regulation in the Act as to make it a good bet that insurance companies will easily game this latest "reform" to their extreme financial reward.

    Hell, even Krugman (who those here trust) says that. This was how he viewed healthcare reform when it passed:

    "Without question, the campaign of fear was effective: health reform went from being highly popular to wide disapproval, although the numbers have been improving lately. But the question was, would it actually be enough to block reform? And the answer is no. The Democrats have done it. The House has passed the Senate version of health reform, and an improved version will be achieved through reconciliation.  This is, of course, a political victory for President Obama, and a triumph for Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker. But it is also a victory for America's soul. In the end, a vicious, unprincipled fear offensive failed to block reform. This time, fear struck out."

    Again, Krugman says so, and that makes it so?  Nope, sorry.  Krugman is talking politics, not policy, and however huge some people viewed that political victory, it has diminished significantly and we are left with crappy policy.  Boo-yah, Paul Krugman!

    It wasn't perfect and he was one of the biggest critics of the concessions, but even he acknowledged what it mean on a macro level. Obama fundamentally reframed the entire healthcare apparatus in the country in a more liberal direction.

    Yes, there are now much more liberal amounts of money pouring into insurance company coffers, as many of us can attest as we look at our premium increases; what Obama did was fundamentally squander a golden opportunity to restore to the people the balance of power that has been vested in the insurance industry for far too long, and to put this country on track to a system where health CARE is a right, not a recipe for financial disaster.

    If you are arguing that healthcare reform was a conservative's dream, I can't help you because the facts don't matter for you.

    First, you keep calling it "health care" reform - it was not about care at all, but about insurance.  And that was the dream of the industry with whom Obama cut deals in back rooms, even as he was out in public still bamboozling people about the so-called "public option."

    If you could actually argue facts, that would be a plus, but you can't do that and still hang onto your "Obama is a liberal" meme.

    Parent

    Those who call Obama a conservative (none / 0) (#114)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:37:39 PM EST
    are the ones ignoring facts.

    Just my opinion, but you are not going to step to me and try to set the parameters as if that is fact.

    I am newer here and I understand that that may work with others but not me.

    My opinion is every bit as valid as yours. We just disagree.

    And that's cool.

    Parent

    Your opinions are not a (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by observed on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:22:26 PM EST
    problem; your failure to back up any of your claims of fact is.

    Parent
    The problem with your conclusion (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:26:40 AM EST
    is that centrist or right leaning solutions will not fix the economy. They have been tried, and failed.

    Nothing will fix the economy unless a very lefty solution to the mortgage/foreclosure crisis is enacted. Obama is not that guy.

    So it appears we are stuck.

    Parent

    Kevin Drum (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:41:37 AM EST
    wrote a post that I like on this subject:

    Sometimes I think that we reality-based folks cave in to reality a little too quickly. It may be true that we're not going to get more fiscal stimulus anytime soon, but if that option is being shut down by congressional know-nothings then at least it should be clear to everyone just how many people believe it's really our first best option and why we're not getting it. If the public thinks it's just Paul Krugman yelling about stimulus, that's one thing. If they know that it's actually a pretty mainstream position outside of the tea party right, that's quite another. And in the end, public opinion matters.

    Instead of just cutting deals, you have to put your ideas out there.  The Obama Admin hasn't done enough of that, IMO.

    Parent

    Obama's only got one (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:53:57 AM EST
    idea - more bipartisanship!

    Parent
    Yes- even if you think it won't be (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:08:32 AM EST
    on the table in the end, you make sure everyone sees it there in the beginning. That's the problem with all of the behind the scenes pre-negotiating - no one sees what you already compromised. For example, they think the 'public option' was the left position, and not already the compromise position.

    But if your highest value is to look 'reasonable' to the other side, you only show your compromises.

    Parent

    I am not saying (none / 0) (#60)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:33:33 AM EST
    that you aren't making fair points.  As a progressive, of course I believe that liberal policies are the solution.

    But all of this analysis ignores the realities of his opposition.

    Think about it this way: they paint him to be a communist based on the stuff you call "conservative".

    And here is the key: it works.  It wasn't Obama's failures to trumpet the benefits of his policies that failed. It was that the right called him a socialist, Wall Street chimed in to agree and middle america bought it, hook, line a sinker. The lie was easier to believe than the truth.

    I think in that environment, the calculus that Obama's dealing with don't match up with what you'd like him to do.

    Parent

    The Democratic Party's failure (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 11:50:00 AM EST
    at the polls had everything to do with the failure of their policies and little to do with the name calling. Good policies that improved the lives of the majority of the people would have had most people rolling on the floors laughing at the descriptions.  

    Parent
    But he did not try to counter the lie! (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 02:32:42 PM EST
    Instead he said yes indeed, I have passed the most liberal agenda in 40 years!

    Parent
    Listen to yourself: (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:33:14 PM EST
    It's never his fault something didn't happen, or didn't work, or fell apart, is it?  It's never about his failure to lead, but about the other guys calling him names and making stuff up, right?

    In one of your comments, you said something to the effect that Obama couldn't accommodate the 15% (your number) of people on the left just to prove he was a libeal.  But, here, you're saying that he does have to accommodate the right so he can prove that he isn't a liberal.  Either way, good policy dies on the altar of Obama's overweening need to be liked by the people who aren't supposed to like him.

    I have news for you: Obama could follow the Republican/conservative/Tea Party script to the letter, and you know what?  They would still call him a communist.  How does he - and how do you - not know that?

    So, if they're going to demonize you for your policy, it might as well be good policy, don't you think?  If he wants to be a leader, he needs to lead.  If he wants to be a leader he needs thicker skin and some actual principles that he believes in no matter what people call him.  

    He never had the latter, and he shows no signs of developing the former; if he - and you - think he is really as powerless as you have to paint him in order for him to escape all accountability, he should just resign, or do us the courtesy of not running again in 2012.


    Parent

    What? (none / 0) (#115)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:44:15 PM EST
    I never said that. Here are the things Obama is screwing up:

    • Iraq
    • Afghanistan
    • DADT
    • Israel
    • Requesting additional stimulus
    • Explaining to america that the debt issue is second priority

    Etc.  He's doing A LOT wrong. But dang man. You read these comments and it's as if the man spent the last two years working with Rush Limbaugh and Hannity on how to screw America. He's done some really good things and he's done some really bad things.

    The only thing I know for certain is that he's nowhere near as terrible as either some here or their dopplegangers over at Red State would have you believe.

    Give him credit where it is due and blast him on the stuff that he's falling down on.

    The one sided, "Obama is the worst, most arrogant, least imaginative, most wimpy, most stubborn headed, most elitist, most uneducated, most wall street loving, most business ignorant president of all times" meme is just freaking crazy to me.

    Take a step back people.  The economy has me and everyone else angry and wanting to lash out at someone and Obama is the easiest target. I get that. But let's keep some level of perspective here.

    He's not perfect but he's not the antichrist either. Give the man some room to work. He needs our support now more than ever.

    Because the REAL bad guys. You know the real conservatives with the R's after their name.

    They aren't #@%$!ing around.

    Parent

    Unlike the Redstate crew (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by andgarden on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:53:14 PM EST
    I believe that Obama could change course and improve the situation. Our fundamental difference is this: I believe that politics is little more than defining the "center."

    The reason why poll-driven "compromise" politics doesn't work is that the other side will always be able to re-outflank you. Ezra and crew marvel at the concept that the ACA is essentially a Republican bill but the Republicans hate it. This should be no surprise: if you put your foot down and keep saying that the latest proposal is TOO LIBERAL, the "undecided voters" in the center (I just call them idiots) will begin to believe you.

    Parent

    Ooof (none / 0) (#142)
    by lentinel on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 07:10:17 PM EST
    If, as you say, Obama is screwing up Iraq and Afghanistan, and I agree with you that he is, that is enough for me to wish him an
    early retirement in favor of someone who might not screw it up.

    No one is painting Obama as perfect or the devil.

    I don't think he is anything in particular.

    Parent

    So did every other president (none / 0) (#169)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:57:33 PM EST
    He's done some really good things and he's done some really bad things.

    If that's your measuring stick, then we are all in trouble.

    Parent

    Obama's Ideas (none / 0) (#157)
    by cal1942 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:06:38 AM EST
    Well the CFC was Obama's "idea" and look what's that gotten us?


    Parent
    Oh yeah, the handout to the (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by observed on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:46:26 AM EST
    health insurance sector was better than anything LBJ did.
    You do realize that insurance rates are raising even faster since HCR passed, don't you?
    There are no tangible positive effects yet---no relief from the problems of high insurance rates.
    To boot, the Republicans will strip funding from the bill before the main parts take effect.
    No doubt Obama will cave, because he understands political realities the same way you do.

    Parent
    And the increased rates (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 12:22:31 PM EST
    due to recent implementation of certain policies pertaining to the health insurance bill are going to be the baseline from which any "exchanges" or whatever are formed in 2014.

    Yep, the new policy has made things FAR worse.

    Parent

    But people are covered, (none / 0) (#85)
    by observed on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:56:06 PM EST
    and that's what matters!

    Parent
    Do you know (none / 0) (#116)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:47:17 PM EST
    what percentage of the insurance rate increases we're seeing are attributable to healthcare reform?

    Hint: small enough to make your comment not make sense.  In Cali where they are raising rates by 15-20% in some cases, 1% is attributable to HCR.

    The issue should be pushing Obama to crack down on rate increases, not bashing HCR which will help bring those costs into line in 2014 when the relevant provisions kick in.

    Parent

    Please back up your numbers (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by observed on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:09:35 PM EST
    And,by the way, you must include skyrocketing rates when discussing HCR "success". Those high rates are a sign of HCR failure to address the problem

    Parent
    and this . . . (none / 0) (#132)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 05:19:39 PM EST
    not bashing HCR which will help bring those costs into line in 2014 when the relevant provisions kick in.


    Parent
    Obama is already (none / 0) (#27)
    by kmblue on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:13:43 AM EST
    ignoring everything, including the economy.
    I recommend Obama do what Dick Nixon used to do...
    look in the mirror and intone, "I AM the President!"

    Parent
    That (none / 0) (#37)
    by CoralGables on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:31:55 AM EST
    worked out really well for him

    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#34)
    by dk on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:29:46 AM EST
    And the reality is that Obama gave the country the most liberal 2 years of legislation since LBJ.

    Perhaps you should read up on the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, the most liberal piece of economic legislation passed since LBJ, including anything that has come after it.  Ever heard of it?

    It is really quite astounding how the Obama defenders never, ever address this piece of legislation.  Easier to rewrite history, I guess, than to study it.  

    Parent

    One of many (none / 0) (#45)
    by sj on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:46:49 AM EST
    legislative acts more liberal than anything O has ever done.

    Parent
    You've revised your premise (none / 0) (#39)
    by sj on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 10:34:43 AM EST
    And the reality is that Obama gave the country the most liberal 2 years of legislation since LBJ. Easily.

    At least you're no longer saying since FDR.  But you forgot about Nixon who established the EPA.  Nixon was more liberal.  No joke.  Okay, maybe it's a bad joke.  But it's still true.

    And seriously.  Stop obsessing about Clinton.  Obama has been the Prez for the last two years.  He has to stand on his own two feet.

    And I fully expect your "recommendations" to be executed.  He'll be cutting deals with all kinds of industries to protect their interests.

    Parent

    Nixon (none / 0) (#118)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:48:52 PM EST
    was more liberal than Obama?

    That statement makes a lot of my points for me.

    Thanks.

    Parent

    It's very sad (none / 0) (#161)
    by sj on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 09:09:47 AM EST
    I understand your visceral rejection of that statement.  But it's still true.

    Parent
    Everyone? (none / 0) (#154)
    by cal1942 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:33:26 AM EST
    If I were him, I'd start cutting deals on things everyone can agree with and work from there.

    What friggin planet are you living on.  No,  don't tell me, I know.  The planet Obama.

    Parent

    aaand (none / 0) (#76)
    by CST on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:05:24 PM EST
    my week from hell is turning into a month from hell.

    Two insane work weeks down, lightening up a bit this week, but not that much.

    And I was robbed!  Someone broke into my house this weekend and stole my laptop, my sister's laptop, and a bottle of vodka.  We have renters insurance, so we may be able to get something back, but all of our pictures, music, data, etc... is gone.  And it feels really violating to know that someone was in my house, with all my stuff.  We're lucky they didn't take anything else, as we do have other electronics/valuables, etc...

    At least the patriots won.  And a lady gave me a dollar off of my sandwich when I didn't have enough cash.  I'll take whatever good karma you feel like giving me - universe.

    In any event, seems like nothing much has changed in politics... go Nancy go!

    Good karma coming your way (none / 0) (#78)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:08:51 PM EST
    They stole a bottle of vodka????

    Parent
    yea... (none / 0) (#81)
    by CST on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:12:11 PM EST
    they broke in through the window behind where we keep our liquor.  I think they just saw it and grabbed it on the way in.

    We filed a police report for the insurance claim (we don't think there is a chance in hell they will find the person), but the cop/detective thought something (me coming in, etc...) may have startled them, based on how they left, and that's why they didn't take much else.

    Parent

    Ouch... (none / 0) (#83)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:29:09 PM EST
    been there, done that...it sucks.

    If you find yourself unable/unwilling to shrug it off, I suggest making the rounds to the local pawn shops to search for your laptops...I tell ya right now the cops ain't gonna do d*ck except file the report.  

    Parent

    They'll file that report when they git round to it (none / 0) (#91)
    by Rojas on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 02:59:23 PM EST
    I went and found my stuff one time, at a flea market.
    Cop calls into the jurisdiction it was stolen in. They hadn't got around to writing the report. They were going to give it back to the vendor with advice not to sell it...
    I had canceled checks with serial numbers for some of the stuff. Identity and company info etched in others.
    I said no, hell no.

    Parent
    Good for you... (none / 0) (#95)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:20:17 PM EST
    Rojas, thats awesome.

    I only went so far as to spread word 'round to my neighbors to keep their eyes/ears open for some punks trying to sell a Playstation and some games...no luck, but I sure as hell wasn't gonna add to the grief by calling the police...karma will get 'em eventually:)

    Parent

    Somewhat awesome (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Rojas on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 08:35:28 AM EST
    Dealing with the cops was like getting kicked in stomach all over again.
    I had spotted one of the items, a 15" miter saw, setting on display. It was sporting a new paint job but still had the serial tag and my company name was etched in the blade. I didn't say anything.

    I  headed off to the cop stand and came back with one of Texas finest in tow. I showed the cop a canceled check with a description and serial number in the memo section that matched. The name on the company check matched the name etched into the blade. The cop interviewed the vendor, a nervous little Asian guy who had been pacing all around his little 12X12 space while we examined the saw, he told the cop he had bought the saw from another vendor that morning. We picked up the saw and headed over there.

    Those two guys, a couple of rednecks, spotted me and the cop heading their way with the saw they had sold that morning. They turned to each other with that Oh Sh!t look. This was repeated a couple more  times as their gaze would switch from us to one another as we walked up to their display.

    While the cop was interviewing them I started gathering up more of my tools and putting them into a pile. Before long I had a pile that made up about a third of the items they had on display. The cop called for a cart and everything was hauled back up to the little cop shack.

    That's when I found out the DPS officer was actually a rent-a-cop. He had to call for an officer from the jurisdiction the flea market was in. While we were waiting I discovered that I had been keeping him from watching the football game. He asked me if I had came there looking for my stuff. I told him yes. He asked "why, don't you have insurance?". I told him yes and inquired "what the hell does that had to do with anything? I make my living with this stuff.".

    I got the impression that he thought I was not too bright and I was pretty well convinced he was not familiar with deductibles and depreciation.

    When the municipal officer showed up he asked if I had filed a police report. I had, it was in a different county and I gave him the detectives name. He called them but the detective was not on duty and no one could or would locate the report. He radioed in to his boss who told him to return my tools to the vendors. That's when I broke in and said hell no. I told him I would sign a theft complaint against the vendors, I wanted their ass arrested and they could sue me. He advised his boss that he would call him back from a phone so I couldn't hear both sides of the conversation.

    In the end, they decided to go ahead and impound the tools. It took me about a month to get them back from the police. I placed numerous calls to DAs and detectives in several jurisdictions, but it was just a circle jerk. I had recovered the big ticket items ~4k in 1980 dollars, but there was another couple grand in smaller miscellaneous items.

    Parent

    yea (none / 0) (#102)
    by CST on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:58:36 PM EST
    I don't expect them to get us our stuff back. There's no one local "flea market" around here and the options for a quick resale are vast. But we do have renter's insurance, and you need to file a police report if you want to collect.  So hopefully we will at least get paid back for the monetary loss - although no retreiving all the data.

    Parent
    Knowing you... (none / 0) (#104)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:02:29 PM EST
    probably a sh*tload of good tunes on that hard drive too...no good thieving bastards, hope karma comes for 'em soon.

    Parent
    yea (none / 0) (#108)
    by CST on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:12:18 PM EST
    it's funny/sad? how much of ones life is stored on a computer.  The ironic thing is, I thought I was ok since I had everything backed up - on my sister's computer that was also stolen.

    At least with music, I own a lot of CDs, and iTunes will replace anything you've purchased.  Of course it means I lost all my original Napster/Morpheus "free" music back when those were the only games in town for mp3s.  But even that is at least replacable.

    The biggest loss is the photos/documents.  No getting those back.  Mostly it's just the hassle of having to deal with everything, plus the general unease of knowing someone can/will get into my house.

    As for the random bottle of vodka - I'm just glad they left me my gin.  The vodka is mostly for friends, the gin is more of a personal vice :)

    Parent

    Know how you feel.... (none / 0) (#119)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:50:45 PM EST
    I couldn't care less about the stuff...it's somebody in your home.

    Thats why its great having the mutt now...nobody bustin' in here these days, no ma'am.  You allowed pets?

    Though Squeaky has a dog and still got ripped off...must be a barker, if not a barker & biter.  

    Parent

    Computers as storage (none / 0) (#140)
    by the capstan on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 06:23:28 PM EST
    All my old photos are prints; could lose them in a fire.  Some of the later ones are prints also..  I am using the computer to view them now--but I am using the net also for safety.  If I lose what's on the computer, I have uploaded almost all (if not all) to various web sites that offer free 'storage.' I have 13 such sites bookmarked on the web. And I have the monthly backups of my stuff in a fire/waterproof safe.  I figure I have done what I can!

    Parent
    Sorry CST. Hope the rest (none / 0) (#106)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:07:23 PM EST
    of the week, month, years...years are better.
    I hope they do find your stuff. For me losing the data would be worse than the monetary loss.
    My ex threw out a bunch of my stuff when I was not around and what I miss most are the photos of family,friends,my dogs.

    Parent
    Question about pawnshops... (none / 0) (#103)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:01:43 PM EST
    What can you do if you find something of yours that was stolen at a pawnshop?
    My dad's Rolex was stolen and we knew the person(close family member) who did it, so did not report it to the police and had no idea how to recover the watch.

    Parent
    You could buy it back... (none / 0) (#105)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:03:45 PM EST
    to get it back no charge the police must be involved, unless the pawn shop owner is a real stand-up person willing to take a loss to do what is right.

    Parent
    Cr@p, did not know that. (none / 0) (#107)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:11:50 PM EST
    We thought the police would have to be involved. Oh well, atleast we don't have to worry about it happening again, since said person is no longer a member of the family.

    Parent
    excellent (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    Westboro protesters face jeers and slashed tires

    To make matters worse, as their minivan slowly hobbled away on two flat tires, with a McAlester police car following behind, the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police.



    Do you have a link? (none / 0) (#89)
    by republicratitarian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 02:39:42 PM EST
    sure (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 02:49:07 PM EST
    Haha, nice (none / 0) (#97)
    by republicratitarian on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:30:54 PM EST
    Even if I wasn't a vet I'd like this one. Those protests make no sense to me. And from a Baptist church, weird.

    Thanks for the link.

    Parent

    Ya see that... (none / 0) (#96)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:28:25 PM EST
    justice served, no laws threatening free speech required.  And three cheers for the local garages turning down a sale for a good cause...not easy to do in this economy.

    My only question is...why only 2 tires?  

    Parent

    Simple answers... (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:43:43 PM EST
    to simple questions...I'd be hard-pressed not to go for 4 myself, just for the fun of it:)

    Parent
    sounds like Olby (none / 0) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:02:09 PM EST
    may have been close to unemployed after all.  if you can believe Howie Kurtz:

    "If you go on GMA, I will fire Keith," Griffin shot back. Such a move was clearly grounds for dismissal.
     

    Free advice needed. I want to get (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:09:04 PM EST
    a ticket for a concert at Miller Theatre @ Columbia Univ.  6 p.m., weekday.  Will be alone.  OK to take subway and walk to and from theatre?  Or better to take a cab both ways?  Will there be cabs outside the theatre at, say, 8:00 p.m.?  Thanks guys.  

    P.S.  I am directionally impaired but do have GPS on my phone.

    should be fine with subway (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:14:09 PM EST
    commuters and students all over the place. prob the same around 8PM. I'd check when classes get out at night, but I kinda doubt that it would be a ghost town. iirc, fairly cab friendly up there . . .

    Parent
    Columbia is essentially just part (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by andgarden on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:48:29 PM EST
    of the Upper West Side these days. You should be fine, I think.

    Parent
    Hey Oc... (none / 0) (#100)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 03:35:39 PM EST
    it's not 1983 anymore, you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

    It's people like me who have to worry walking the streets in post-Guiliani NYC:)

    That being said, I'd be happy to meet you for a nightcap after the show and see you to your hotel safely...and I promise not to flake out this time! I could be there by 8 on a worknight.

    Parent

    Very sweet indeed. (none / 0) (#150)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:05:47 AM EST
    Here's the info re the event.  Contemporary music by Japanese composers  performed on classical Japanese instruments.  Any interest?

    Calendar

    Parent

    By winds and strings... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 08:21:37 AM EST
    do they mean sax and guitars? :)

    J/K...I'd be down to expand my cultural horizons but I'd have to see if I can bang outta work early.

    Parent

    kdog, you don't need to . (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:33:01 PM EST
    fill the part of one of those guys dragged to a concert.  Plus, I'm ok with "upper West Side."  I think I'm going back further than 1983.  My ex used to tell a harrowing tale of emerging from the subway when he went to check Columbia Medical School.  That was a loooong time ago.  

    P.S.  I would enjoy mtg. you sometime though.

    Parent

    Offer still stands... (none / 0) (#170)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:10:27 PM EST
    for a nightcap...my email is in my user preferences...if you write just put TL in the subject so I don't treat ya like spam:)

    Parent
    Will do. I don't plan to get to Long (none / 0) (#173)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    Island except to and from JFK, despite the tempting prospect of visiting the Ganesha Temple!

    Parent
    Kdog's Escort Service.... :-) (none / 0) (#162)
    by vml68 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 09:19:34 AM EST
    Was that an exclusive offer for Oculus or are the rest of us also allowed to make use of this service?!

    Parent
    For all the ladies of TL... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 09:44:53 AM EST
    it's an open invitation...though my skinny arse does not pass for an intimidating bodyguard:)

    Parent
    I thought you were in India! (none / 0) (#163)
    by vml68 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 09:21:52 AM EST
    n/t

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    I got home from India Nov. 1. Now (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:33:57 PM EST
    I'm I'm just being a know-it-all commenter on the subject!

    Parent
    I want to be you! (none / 0) (#171)
    by vml68 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:14:17 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    It's great being me. But best to anonymous (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:42:29 PM EST
    re excessive travel.  Don't want BTD messing with my Social Security!

    Parent
    BTD, what happened yesterday? (none / 0) (#110)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 04:25:44 PM EST
    G-men not so elite, after all?