home

Fingerpointing

In a fairly banal and not as bad as I expected Op-Ed, Evan Bayh pleases the Beltway with this line:

[Dems]were too deferential to our most zealous supporters. During election season, Congress sought to placate those on the extreme left and motivate the base — but that meant that our final efforts before the election focused on trying to allow gays in the military, change our immigration system and repeal the George W. Bush-era tax cuts. These are legitimate issues but unlikely to resonate with moderate swing voters in a season of economic discontent.

(Emphasis supplied.) There are two interesting points about this passage. First Bayh is arguing that motivating your base during election season is bad politics. Instead persuading "moderate swing voters" is the way to go. I think that's wrong, but it is an argument. Second, Bayh seems to not see a connection between governing performance and electoral results. He thinks it is all about appearances. That is just plain stupid. And of course, with regard to "placating those on the extreme left," Paul Krugman says it best:

So, we’re already getting the expected punditry: Obama needs to end his leftist policies, which consist of … well, there weren’t any, but he should stop them anyway.

Anyway, Evan Bayh is running for President in 2016. Hillary Clinton can stop him though.

Speaking for me only

< Creative Destruction | Denver Post Says Sen. Michael Bennet Wins >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Gosh, he's dim (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by esmense on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 08:47:52 AM EST
    He just glows with stupid, and smugness. He has NO chance of becoming President.

    Can you think of any accomplishment he has to run on?

    I can think of plenty of men (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:59:04 AM EST
    who threw their hat in the ring without anything to claim as an accomplishment.

    Didn't the standard change to "who would you want to have a beer with?" over the past 10 years?

    Parent

    Christine (none / 0) (#142)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:01:48 AM EST
    ODonnell

    Parent
    She ran for President? (none / 0) (#181)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:50:11 AM EST
    you need (none / 0) (#200)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:37:58 PM EST
    to be more specific

    Parent
    Even wrong on the facts (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 08:54:38 AM EST
    repeal the George W. Bush-era tax cuts.

    Uh, no Evan, that is not what is happening.

    Anyone surprised (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 08:55:16 AM EST
    by his comment? Utterly predictable.

    Aside from the whole (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:00:01 AM EST
    step aside gay civil rights thing there's this

    repeal the George W. Bush-era tax cuts. These are legitimate issues

    The middle class tax cuts could've been a home run issue for Dems.  How do they not "resonate" in a season of "economic discontent?"  The people I've spoken to who don't follow politics obsessively have been worried over the past few months that no tax cuts will be extended at all.  I don't think people are as confident that at least middle class tax cuts (and probably upper class tax cuts, however temporarily) will be extended.  These people are the people who don't believe Obama gave them a tax cut and believe Dems would be dumb enough not to extend middle class tax cuts.  They don't necessarily get that the fight is over whether to extend tax cuts for the rich, not whether to extend tax cuts, period.  There was a cloud of uncertainty there that may've affected the fortunes of some Dems.  It's a problem they could've easily resolved.  It's maddening.

    Democrats who think like Evan Bayh (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:00:35 AM EST
    are one reason they went down to defeat; duh.

    I think it won't be long before we know whether Democrats learned anything from this election, but if I could make a suggestion to those who remain, I think I would advise that they get better acquainted with their role as members of an independent branch of government, and start taking a closer look at the e-mails and letters they've received over the last two years, to see how much of what people asked them to do they actually endeavored to achieve.  And I don't mean some industry-friendly (pick an industry) legislation with a lofty title that sounds better than it is.

    The voters will reward good policy that improves their lives.  They will reward unambiguous, full-tilt efforts to stop bad policy.  I would suggest that the lame duck Democratic Congress reject, in no uncertain terms, ANY recommendation from the CatFood Commission to reduce Social Security benefits - period.  No raising the retirement age to 70.  No "re-calculating" how benefits are determined.  Give seniors the $250 - it's unbelievably meager and doesn't substitute for an actual increase to 2011 benefits, but it's something.

    Go down swinging if you have to, to extend unemployment benefits; cold weather is here, and people are hanging by an economic thread.  Do it before the huge bonuses get handed out on Wall Street or live with the "optic" of celebrating bankers and brokers juxtaposed against people holding "will work for food" signs.

    Any Democrat who lost needs to have as many meetings as it takes with actual voters until he or she understands why it happened, and that message needs to be carried to those Democrats moving on, or coming into, the next Congress.

    Someone the president trusts needs to advise him to fire his current economic team, because not only is their vision not moving the country forward, but I don't believe the people have confidence in their ability to do so; if the vision of the current team is also Obama's vision, he desperately needs corrective lenses.

    Deal with the foreclosure crisis honestly, and stop protecting the big banks; who knows how else they and their Wall Street buddies have screwed us over, but it needs to stop.  The voters don't trust any of the industries the Democrats say they have "reformed" in "historic" ways, nor do they any longer trust Democrats to protect their interests vis-à-vis these industries.  

    Where the hell is Elizabeth Warren?

    Two years of opportunities wasted; they learn from this, or it gets worse in 2012.  Much worse.  While it's always possible the newly minted members of Congress will stumble, crash and burn, I think it is far more likely that GOP leadership will enforce party discipline while Dems assume the position they are most comfortable with: disarray.

    And for what it's worth, there is no pleasure in having been right about how this was going to play out after the 2008 election, because I am living the consequences just like everyone else.  


    Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:15:13 AM EST
    The way to salvage everything is get the ones that remain in congress to stop giving the GOP cover on all their crazy legislation. Let the GOP vote for these things as a complete bloc and let the voters hold them responsible for it.

    Parent
    Their dishonesty in dealing with (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:17:59 AM EST
    our economic crisis is killing them.  Nobody trusts them because they hide things and they lie and they prosecute whistle blowers to the hilt.

    Parent
    Anne (none / 0) (#146)
    by sas on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:03:52 AM EST
    I think you are 100 percent correct in your comments.

    Parent
    Gee... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by bocajeff on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:02:22 AM EST
    Say what you will about right wing extremism, left wing extremism, or anything else...When people are out of work, when people are losing their homes, they kind of get mad...They take it out on the people in power no matter who caused the problem but because the problems aren't getting fixed...Want to win in 2012...fix the economy. Pretty simple if you ask me...

    It's the economy stupid (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:08:07 AM EST
    is exactly right.

    Parent
    Evan Bayh's prescription for (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:06:46 AM EST
    Obama and the remaining Democrats seems to be to hurry up and grab all those good Republican ideas, of which there are now a lot more of, before the Republicans act on them so that Obama and the Democrats can get the credit.

    Guess who wrote this (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:12:47 AM EST
    But even if that was a good excuse for holding back during the campaign season, now's the time to start using the bully pulpit. Obama has a notable streak of temperamental caution that serves him well, but it could also betray him. Maybe he could have turned the tide against Proposition 8 in California if he'd been willing to take a risk on its behalf. Maybe he can overcome conservative opposition to a progressive energy plan if he's willing to take some risks selling it to the public. But if he doesn't, all the congressional majorities in the world won't help him in the long run. I sure hope he understands this.

    The Democrats didn't have anything to sell, because this never really happened.  Maybe it wasn't all about the complexity of navigating Congress and the irrelevancy of the President after all, despite what the author says now.

    The Dems played inside baseball, forgot about politics, didn't pass strong enough economic policy, and didn't remind people of the good things in the policy that they did pass.

    Chime! (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:20:54 AM EST
    The Democrats didn't have anything to sell

    I'm still asking:  What was their agenda for the next two years?

    Parent

    I am too (none / 0) (#23)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:24:30 AM EST
    War on terror and tax-cutting. (none / 0) (#33)
    by observed on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:39:27 AM EST
    I sure hope that (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:10:07 AM EST
    Evan Bayh is not the ghost writer for President Obama's press conference today.

    All this is irrelevant. This is going to be like (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by steviez314 on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:27:43 AM EST
    the TARP vote in September 2008:

    After yesterday's vote, the stock market drops 2,000 points today, and they have a re-vote by Friday.

    Well, that was my dream last night anyway.

    Booman says that it is (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:04:45 AM EST
    because white people don't feel represented by the Dems anymore.  What an idiot!  Nobody but the banks and Wall Street and the corporations feels represented by the Democrats Booman.

    How on earth can you still (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:56:37 AM EST
    read Booman, lol?

    Seriously, is there something Obama's done for people of color that would lead Caucasians to feel abandoned?

    Or is this just Booman trying out one more reason why something isn't Obama's fault - what's next?  The American people don't like Obama's dog?  

    I really just don't get how Booman thinks his loyalty is serving any constructive purpose, but I do think he mirrors a lot of Obama's messaging - when your message is "make me do it," and it doesn't happen, you can always say, "well, I guess you all didn't want it bad enough."

    Someone in this thread - or maybe it was one of the other ones, asked how someone could call Obama conservative, and reconcile that with the "real" conservatives in the GOP.  My initial reaction to that was, "because Obama's one of them - he IS a Republican, regardless of what letter appears after his name.  Strip out his name and party affiliation from a list of what he has done and said for the two years of his presidency - and I am not referring to the list of "accomplishments" that loyalists like Booman trot out - with a straight face - as proof that Obama is the best progressive EVER - and he's a Republican.  Maybe a moderate one, on some issues, but that still makes him a Republican.

    Really, Tracy, reading Booman is bad for your blood pressure, unless you medicate before you read...


    Parent

    We were talking about fingerpointing (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:03:11 AM EST
    I knew he would have something really terrific up today :)  He did not disappoint.  I was feeling a little low today, and I have that low blood pressure problem :)

    Parent
    Well, I do have a (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:08:33 AM EST
    finger  - actually, one on each hand - that I typically use to express my feelings about what Booman usually has to say...lol.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:12:07 AM EST
    if he believes that then isn't he conceding Obama's complete defeat in '12?

    Parent
    If we are that freaked out (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:14:08 AM EST
    by brown people, how did Obama ever get in?

    Parent
    You're (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:17:49 AM EST
    trying to promote a rational argument where Booman is concerned. Good luck with that!

    Parent
    because a lot of brown (none / 0) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:06:35 AM EST
    people and young people voted who never had before and my never again.  along with enough of us to pull it off.

    that and the economic collapse without which I still say McCain would have won.

    Parent

    I don't think McCain would have beaten (none / 0) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:15:15 AM EST
    Obama without the economic collapse.  People were chit full of Repubs at that time and their absolute lack of ethics or morals while they were trying to foist morals on everyone else. And then McCain chose Palin. Remember when people could afford to be upset too about how many soldiers died for the Bush/Cheney lie in Iraq and people preaching traditional marriage values while sexting paiges and married secretaries?  Nobody can afford to pay attention to the wars though anymore, people can afford precious little.

    Parent
    McCain never stood a chance (none / 0) (#197)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:31:11 PM EST
    no matter who the Democratic nominee was. IMO

    Bozo the Clown could have run and won. Everyone was tired of the R brand after Bush.

    Parent

    Booman evidently has not read (none / 0) (#31)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:36:34 AM EST
    the unemployment data over that last two years. African Americans and Hispanics are experiencing unemployment rates two to three times higher than their white counterparts. This is much closer to the truth IMO.

    Nobody but the banks and Wall Street and the corporations feels represented by the Democrats Booman.

    In fact, I will take it one step farther and say that no one but the banks and Wall Street and the corporations feels represented by the government regardless of what party is in power.

    Parent

    The voters that put the Republicans in (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:39:29 AM EST
    power hope that they will have a change of heart.  Not likely, but it was all they had to work with.

    Parent
    Think it has more to do (none / 0) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:48:20 AM EST
    with the fact that the voters were in a "Throw the bums out" mode than any faith in the Republican party. Will see if voters will override upcoming redistricting in Republican's favor and "Throw the bums out" again in 2012.  

    Parent
    the average voter (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:52:40 AM EST
    isn't usually aware of what redistricting does to them or even how it comes about.  I doubt many voters took upcoming redistricting into consideration when they voted yesterday.  Most of them probably hadn't heard anything on that particular issue.  If they had, I wonder if it would have changed their mood much?

    Parent
    I think on some issues Republican voters (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:05:16 AM EST
    have been better educated by their party than Dem voters.

    In my experience, Republican voters are much more aware of political ramifications on things like judgeships and redistricting than their Dem counterparts.

    Parent

    We had lunch with friends (none / 0) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:16:46 AM EST
    yesterday who generally vote Republican.  The wife is very involved with her work right now and her husband was instructing her that when she leaves work at 4:30 to go here and vote.  I'm sure he called her too around that time.  Republicans had no chance of losing yesterday in Alabama but our friends are religious about voting.

    Parent
    Redistricting (none / 0) (#203)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:47:18 PM EST
    We had Constitutional amendment 5 on our ballot here in Florida yesterday which dealt with redistricting. I can't seem to find it online yet whether it passed or not.

    Parent
    it (none / 0) (#204)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:50:45 PM EST
    Got it, thanks (none / 0) (#205)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:51:29 PM EST
    Great point (none / 0) (#51)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:01:29 AM EST
    Rubio made a similar comment last night in his speech.

    Parent
    I caught the speech (none / 0) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:09:27 AM EST
    Fricken Rubio gets it....in a Republican way I guess.  Try as I might to transcend, I'm a Democrat in my bones (at least what I was taught the label meant growing up).  When a Republican talks like Rubio did last night I get Reagan flashbacks and then I need an Alka-Seltzer.  Our problems are profound right now.  I like my Republicans Gingrich stoopid at the moment because I don't for one minute think the current breed cand deal with or fix any of this.  I trust slapped awake Democrats more.  Andrew Card called Gingrich the Republican "idea man" this morning and I fell down laughing.  Rubio intimidates me far more than Newt the nutty idea fruitcake.

    Parent
    Sermon (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:02:05 AM EST
    His speech started out like a sermon and I couldn't shake the fear so I missed the message :)


    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#214)
    by dandelion on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 03:08:44 PM EST
    My sister is a life long Texas Republican married to a former Anne Richards campaign worker (don't ask me how that works for them) and NEITHER one of them feel represented in any way by EITHER party.

    It's not right v. left anymore or Republican v. Democrat; it's the people v. the elite.  Right now, no one at all speaks for the people, no one.

    I would not be at all surprised to see someone emerge from the wings in 2012 -- like Perot in 92 (another time of horrible recession and financial failure, though not nearly as bad as now)  -- and throw a real spanner into the works.  

       

    Parent

    How is filibuster reform looking (none / 0) (#10)
    by magster on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:08:50 AM EST
    Rand Paul talking nutty on GMA...

    Coburn still around.  Nothing will get done.

    Krugman v Krugman (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dan the Man on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:11:37 AM EST
    Now
    Obama needs to end his leftist policies, which consist of well, there werent any

    Then:


    Numerical notes on health care reform.  Guys, this is a major program to aid lower- and lower-middle-income families. How is that not a big progressive victory?


    I am pretty sure (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:13:07 AM EST
    he was thinking in terms of the economy.

    Parent
    Evan Bayh is running for President in 2016 (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:19:48 AM EST
    what about 2012

    as and indie (none / 0) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:20:10 AM EST
    after all his dem bashing would he run as one?

    Parent
    he kept that 10 million (none / 0) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:23:00 AM EST
    for something and something tells me its not 6 years away.

    Parent
    If he thinks he is what the American (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:36:57 AM EST
    people weren't running away from, he would be exactly 100% wrong.  The problem was that there wasn't anything to run to.

    Parent
    maybe I am not being clear (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:39:48 AM EST
    I dont think that is what he thinks at all.  he seems to think he is what the country needs.  more mushy right of center centrism.
    this op ed and other things he has done lately (like keeping his 10 million dollar war chest much to the chagrin of many democrats) seem to me to suggest he is considering another run. for something.  and probably not in 6 years.

    just MO.

    Parent

    I'm not being clear either (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:43:46 AM EST
    It is obvious he thinks he is the solution the people seek.  He is a career politician with a family history of career politics.  He knows that a few years on the sidelines allows you to reinvent yourself and also be forgiven and he keeps that option open for himself.

    Parent
    No Dem is running in 2012 (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:34:31 AM EST
    except Barack Obama.

    I do not know why people continue with this absurdity.

    Parent

    not dem indie. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:35:48 AM EST
    he seems to love to bash dems a bit to much.

    Parent
    If unemployment remains over 9% & SS is cut (none / 0) (#52)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:01:53 AM EST
    I got $100 says Obama gets a leftist challenger, and he will have deserved it.

    Parent
    If Social Security gets cut, (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:36:16 AM EST
    the Dems might as well pick up their tent and leave D.C. for good.

    Parent
    I'm with Bob on this (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:25:25 AM EST
    If the economic horror persists and Obama doesn't decide not to run, I'm betting he experiences a true Jimmy Carter moment.  I read last night that certain people within the party want Obama to let them know by December if he is running in 2012, names of those certain people were not given though.

    Parent
    I think it can persist and he can still win (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:09:42 AM EST
    without a primary challenge IF he would just lay out a PLAN for the four years that gives people reason to believe he is actually working on the problems they face.

    Parent
    He is giving away 500 billion more (none / 0) (#158)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:21:33 AM EST
    to Wall Street today....stuff that nobody gets to vote on.  Whatever he says his plan is, his challenger will just bring up all this stuff.  With this going on, giving the wealthy another two years of tax cuts, and cutting Social Security...I predict he is done.

    Parent
    If he cuts Social Security, who is left to (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:23:19 AM EST
    vote for him except, maybe, the catfood commission.  

    Parent
    I said (none / 0) (#187)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:12:21 PM EST
    IF he proves to the people he has a plan that shows he is working on their needs.

    Now, of course, if he works AGAINST their needs, we're talking a different scenario.

    @MT - his giving of money to Wall Street will only work against him if the people don't end up benefitting. Got to spend money to make money.

    Parent

    I read that too (none / 0) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:27:51 AM EST
    it was from John Fund.  so I am not basing any long range plans on it.  

    personally I dont think there is a chance in the world Obama will not run again.  at least at this point.

    Parent

    I haven't a clue (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:30:47 AM EST
    what Obama can deal with and not deal with, four years of hell is a lot of hell :)

    Parent
    I just cant imagine a world (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:40:53 AM EST
    in which Obama quits because he thinks he has failed or something.  its not in his nature.

    Parent
    heck (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:50:11 AM EST
    he's quit tons of times in his life. He quit the senate. He quit the Il legislature. So why not quit the presidency? If he sees that he is not going to win why not quit instead of go down?

    Parent
    It could be seen as . . . (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by nycstray on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:17:03 AM EST
    "historic"  :)

    Parent
    there is a world of difference (none / 0) (#157)
    by CST on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:21:13 AM EST
    between "moving up" and quitting.  Obama was and (I think) still is a very ambitious man.

    Parent
    Plus he'd be labelled a "Palin." (none / 0) (#159)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:22:22 AM EST
    I think his ambition is not matched (none / 0) (#161)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:24:08 AM EST
    by his actual talent outside of campaigning and speechifying, and campaigning and making speeches only goes so far.

    Parent
    it rarely is (none / 0) (#163)
    by CST on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:26:41 AM EST
    but do you see him quitting?

    I sure don't.

    Parent

    At this point I can't tell (none / 0) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:30:07 AM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#166)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:31:33 AM EST
    but at this point there is nowhere to "move up" to is there?

    Parent
    i'd say (none / 0) (#174)
    by CST on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:36:43 AM EST
    2 term pres > 1 term pres

    Parent
    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:39:23 AM EST
    know he just doesn't seem much too interested in the job of President.

    Parent
    No surprise there (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by nycstray on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:53:28 AM EST
    he wasn't all that interested in Sen either. what in his history says he actually has a passion for doing the jobs?

    Parent
    Who wants to go down in history (none / 0) (#190)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:21:09 PM EST
    as the "quitter President?"  Seriously.  Especially if Obama is "only interested in his legacy" as some people here seem to believe.

    I think oddly enough what Obama is not interested in is media manipulation, spin, etc.  Which stands out after having GW and Karl Rove for 8 years.

    Parent

    new position (none / 0) (#215)
    by dandelion on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 03:12:16 PM EST
    Hmmm... well could we create a kind of emeritus position he could be gently shoved up and into?  

    Parent
    He will quit if he thinks he has done (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:36:14 PM EST
    enough to get him on the Million Dollar circuit for speeches and enough $50 Million Dollar book deals. I always did think he was more interested in being a former President - Bill Clinton makes it look like a pretty nice gig.

    Parent
    based on (none / 0) (#151)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:08:20 AM EST
    what?

    Parent
    I did not know much about the author (none / 0) (#111)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:41:26 AM EST
    Bleh....I went and read up on him.  Why does the WSJ employ him?  It would seem that when he has named a source as anonymous, it is a source that lives in his rectum :)

    Parent
    HRC in 2016? (none / 0) (#24)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:29:32 AM EST
    why?  What is this fixation with HRC running or becoming Pres?  In the next six years the likelihood that another Democrat(s) will emerge as a leader is pretty high.  And the need in 2016 for a real progressive, not a DLCer-3rd Way like Obama or HRC, will be even more dire.  The most disappointing response from any Democrat, in my view, was Hillary's assertion that the results will not change US foreign policy.  Too bad, it is horrible and has been for decades.

    Bayh doesn't need to be stopped, he'll never get off the launch pad unless he plans to run as a Republican.

    This is nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:33:42 AM EST
    " In the next six years the likelihood that another Democrat(s) will emerge as a leader is pretty high."

    The likelihood is ZERO, UNLESS Obama loses in 2012.

    Parent

    HRC has a clear path to the 2016 nomination? (none / 0) (#50)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:59:19 AM EST
    & no one  over the next 6 years will emerge over the next six years other than Bayh to challenge her? Did anyone in 2002 predict that OBama, at the time an IL state senator, would contend for much less win the Presidency?

    There's nonsense in this thread but it ain't coming from me.

    Parent

    This is absurd (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:24:42 AM EST
    In 2008, the Dems were not the governing party. they did not have the Presidency for the previous 8 years.

    That you point to 2008 is indicative that you have no idea what you are talking about here.

    Who was the Democratic leader  who "emerged" between 1994 and 2000?

    Parent

    Why is 1994-2000 the only relevant period? (none / 0) (#108)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:39:20 AM EST
    In that instance you had a VP wanting to run, here it is unlikely Biden has any interest in 2016.  The 2016 Dem primaries will be as much a free for all as 2008 GOP primaries.  

    Parent
    Pick your relevant period then (none / 0) (#113)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:43:13 AM EST
    when the party with the Presidency had a "leader" emerge?

    Even Ted Kennedy was an old established political power when he rose to challenge Carter.

    Parent

    If 1980 and 1968 don't satisfy you 1952 & 1920 (none / 0) (#141)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:59:26 AM EST
    How would 1980 prove your point? (none / 0) (#173)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:36:30 AM EST
    How does 1952, which was like 1968 (and 1980), a revolt against a sitting President?

    Unless you are imagining a revolt against Obama  for 2012, I simply do not see what you are getting at?

    I admit to not understanding your 1920 reference. Who was the great Dem leader that emerged during the Wilson Administration? In fact, do you remember who the Dem nominee was for that election?


    Parent

    First off, we are talking about 2016 (none / 0) (#218)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 06:32:26 PM EST
    there will be no challenge to Obama in 2016, one way or the other he will be through by then.

    Again both in 1920 and 1952 you had an incumbent Administration with retiring President where the VP was not running.  In both instances you had Governors, Cox in '20 and Stevenson in '52 as the nominee.  Newcomers to national politics in both instances.  McCarthy was new to the national scene when he challenged Johnson who had not yet announced and forced him from the race.

    What difference does it make whether, as in 68, it was a challenge to a sitting President?  Your contention is that new challengers from within a party never arise when their party holds office.  I've given you several examples now 1920, 1952, 1968.  Others mentioned '80 which I did not.  Unlike each of the years I did mention the incumbent President himself ran in 1980 & as you correctly note Ted Kennedy was already a national figure.

    I think your contention that the 2016 nomination is Hillary's for the asking is way premature and precludes the very real likelihood that other challengers will arise over the course of the next 6 years.  

    In responding to your challenge I am not addressing 2012.  However, regarding separately 2012, I would not at all be surprised if Obama faces a challenge  particularly if he goes along with the Catfood Comm cuts to SS and unemployment (as it almost assuredly will in the absence of serious and large govt stimulus) remains high.

    I doubt Hillary will win the nomination in 2016 as I expect a class of newcomers to jump in just as happened in the 2008 GOP primaries.  Democratic candidates don't get the respect for having been around a while to the same extent that that happens in the GOP (see Dole, McCain).  

    Parent

    Reagan 1976 (none / 0) (#145)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:03:23 AM EST
    if Nixon/Agnew had served without incident I doubt ole Spiro would have been the '76 GOP nominee.  As it was the incumbent appointed GOP President nearly lost his party's nomination.

    Parent
    So you again point (none / 0) (#175)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:37:48 AM EST
    to a challenge to a sitting President (albeit an appointed one) as your example?

    It seems to me you are pointing to a challenge to Obama in 2012.

    Parent

    Not pointing, just hoping (none / 0) (#219)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 06:34:27 PM EST
    but again we are discussing 2016 and what you contend is Hillary's unobstructed path to the nomination.

    Parent
    One: (none / 0) (#179)
    by cal1942 on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:48:42 AM EST
    The Conservative jihad had been gaining traction through the 70s.

    Two:

    Ford was viewed by many as a temporary fill in President.  Which is exactly what he was.

    Parent

    In 2002 (none / 0) (#56)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:03:52 AM EST
    I don't think anyone thought of Hillary as a viable canidate- I think at that point a lot of people assumed Gore would run again- or that McCain would pull a party switch, this of course only serves to strengthen your point.

    Parent
    The point is ridiculous (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:26:36 AM EST
    party leaders "emerge" when the party does not control the White House.

    I am amazed at the obtuseness on this point.

    Parent

    It is a bit odd (none / 0) (#119)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:48:19 AM EST
    I mean the only possible alternative to Hillary would be another Obama admin figure (none of whom are currently close- it'd have to be a Sec Def or AG level figure though)- or Al Gore (which isn't going to happen).

    Parent
    How can you say that 6 years prior??? (none / 0) (#147)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:04:49 AM EST
    look at the Dem Governors and Congresspeople.  Who knows who will strike a chord with the voting public in 2016?

    Parent
    well (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:10:51 AM EST
    there's no one else in the party right now that has the appeal that Hillary does to the working class, women and hispanics. It's not looking like there's going to be anyone else since it's the now it's become the "new" democratic coalition consisting of only upper income whites and African Americans.

    Parent
    Six years (none / 0) (#75)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:16:36 AM EST
    is a geological significant age in politics.

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:21:16 AM EST
    but the creative class has been insistent on running off a lot of the "FDR Coalition" and what the party consists of right now is not conducive to producing that type of candidate.

    Six years is a long time but I'm not seeing anybody right now that could take up that mantle.

    Parent

    I ask you again (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:25:31 AM EST
    Give me an example of someone "emerging" as a party leader when the party controlled the White House? It simply does not happen ever.

    Parent
    McCarthy (none / 0) (#102)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:36:05 AM EST
    whose emergence would have resulted in RFK's nomination but for . . . .   1952 Stevenson was not in Truman's Administration.  1920 Cox was not in Wilson's Administration.

    And as for cabinet officials who successfully ran their party's nomination to to succeed the President they served, this century I can only think of Hoover.

    Parent

    So you expect (none / 0) (#114)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:44:42 AM EST
    a 1968 in 2016?

    Really?

    Oh BTW, the Democratic candidate for the Presidency in 1968 was Hubert Humphrey.

    And Bobby Kennedy was hardly an out of the blue candidate.

    Parent

    Had McCarthy not beat LBJ in NH (none / 0) (#123)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:49:30 AM EST
    Kennedy would not have run.  Had RFK not been killed he would have won the nomination, not HHH.

    Then there remains 1952 and 1920 both examples of Democratic nominees not of the incumbent Democratic Administration in years where the VP was not interested in running.   And such will be the case in 2016, assuming Obama is re-elected in 2012.

    Parent

    oh, and lingering wars that take resources away (none / 0) (#139)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:57:50 AM EST
    from combating what will be by 2016 a well entrenched lost economic decade could certainly lead to 1968-like political landscape.

    And that is not even taken into consideration expansion to conflict with Iran which I am sure HRC, Gates & the GOP will be pressuring Obama to do.

    These are as politically volatile as they are interesting.

    Parent

    Was gonna mention (none / 0) (#115)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:45:05 AM EST
    Gene McC, although Lyndon (and many Dems who knew him well) didn't really consider him much of a leader, let alone a serious threat for the nom.

    In 1952 though, I think the chronology was HST said he wouldn't run again, then privately went to Gov Stevenson and had to practically browbeat him to get him to step forth as a "leader" for the nom.

    Parent

    Well Lyndon should have taken him more seriously (none / 0) (#126)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:50:14 AM EST
    McCarthy knocked him out of politics.

    Parent
    1968 (none / 0) (#122)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:49:08 AM EST
    only happened because LBJ stepped down though.

    Parent
    Correction (none / 0) (#128)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:51:09 AM EST
    LBJ stepped down after McCarthy won or came in strong second in 1968 NH primary.  And LBJ's stepping down shocked the country.

    Parent
    Nah, LBJ stepped aside (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:12:31 AM EST
    (he intended only for the duration of the primaries, as earlier discussed, as was discovered years later) not because backbencher McC ran a strong NH race -- Lyndon might have been embarrassed but wasn't worried at all about losing to Gene about whom he thought little as a political threat.  

    LBJ left the race after RFK announced his candidacy several days after NH.  Kennedy was the guy Lyndon didn't want to face -- LBJ was always actually conflict averse, and here he didn't want to yet again lose to another Kennedy.

    Parent

    LBJ "conflict averse"? (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:28:20 AM EST
    I know....whew (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:32:22 AM EST
    There was two LBJs and I only know of one of them

    Parent
    Yes. Look at how (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:42:56 AM EST
    he ran his 1960 candidacy -- avoiding the primaries and Kennedy.

    Look at how he intended to win again in 1968 -- avoid the primaries and come back later after the 2 contenders destroyed each other, etc.

    I think you're focusing too much on that "Treatment" business.  That tended to happen in legis settings where LBJ knew he actually held the dominant position.  Easy to deliver the Treatment when you know you're going to steamroller the oppo anyway.

    In electoral settings, however, definitely conflict averse.

    And, as prez, in his strong preference for having only yes men around him -- no conflict allowed.

    Conflict averse.

    Parent

    McNamara, per McNamara, finally (none / 0) (#182)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:52:17 AM EST
    advised LBJ to stop the war in Vietnam.  Way too late, of course.

    Parent
    And look what happened (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:08:07 PM EST
    to Mac -- shown the door (according to some insider accounts), fired for daring to doubt Lyndon's policy.  Though McN to the end, as he often said, never was sure he had been fired.

    Similar to what happened a coupla yrs earlier with Mac Bundy, who didn't disagree with LBJ on waging war, just that he wanted the admin to be more open with the public about the escalation and why it was necessary.  LBJ sent him the message, though without ever directly firing him (he sent Bill Moyers, twice, to tell Bundy he was no longer needed, and Bundy, to his credit, refused for a good while to accept the delivery).  

    Conflict averse.

    Parent

    And yet (none / 0) (#192)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:24:17 PM EST
    despite all that he was a much, much, much better president than Kennedy was, go figure.

    Parent
    ON the contrary, LBJ (none / 0) (#196)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:31:04 PM EST
    ended up a disaster.  Unnecessary war, lied to public constantly about it a lot else, didn't take care of the economy re paying for the war, working with J Edgar to disrupt and destroy the antiwar left, and eventually split the party and the country, enabling the complete resurrection of Dick Nixon.  

    Other than that, fine fine president ...

    Parent

    True on many counts, but (none / 0) (#202)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:42:20 PM EST
    let's be clear that what split the party and the country was the courage to push for the Civil Rights Act -- the first real Civil Rights Act in the long series of acts so named for a century.

    Parent
    Not sure what "emerging" (none / 0) (#212)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:47:31 PM EST
    encompasses, but if it's somebody unexpected who comes from relative obscurity to a viable candidate in a fairly short period of time, wouldn't you call Gene McCarthy one?

    Parent
    control (none / 0) (#216)
    by dandelion on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 03:17:42 PM EST
    Except it's not very clear how much control Obama really has over the Democratic political operation.  Rather than having a lot of operatives owe him, it seems he owes a lot to others -- the exact inverse of control.  When he does try to "assist" the party -- he's seen as damaging.  

    The problem is that Obama has created a power vacuum at the top.  He could still correct that, but if he doesn't it's not at all clear what will fill that void.

    Parent

    I'd like to argue with you (none / 0) (#58)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:05:24 AM EST
    but yeah- you have a point- other the the 1968 election (which was an anomaly) I can't think of a time a non-affiliated political figure rose to get the nomination of the incumbents party.

    Parent
    I am talking about a 2016 Dem challenging for (none / 0) (#72)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:15:27 AM EST
    the 2016 nomination, not a third party challenger

    Parent
    So am I (none / 0) (#86)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:25:14 AM EST
    think about it if as BTD is presuming (and is a pretty good bet- frankly I might put money down if last night skews the odds a bit more)- Obama wins re-election, then an Obama admin figure will almost certainly be the 2016 nominee: look at all of the elections post-incumbent in the modern era- Gore, Bush I, Nixon, Truman, the last time a two term president wasn't succeeded as his party's nominee by a figure prominently involved in his admin (almost invariably his VP) was Wilson in 1920.

    Parent
    HIllary will run, no doubt, Biden will not (none / 0) (#93)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:28:32 AM EST
    all I am saying is she will not run alone in 2016 against Bayh, she will have serious competition and will be far from a shoo-in to be the nominee.

    Parent
    You're (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:30:19 AM EST
    assuming no independent candidate and a lot of other things there. Obama might not even run. MT talked about an article where some members of the party have asked them to tell them know if he is going to run again by December. Obama doesn't seen particularly interested in doing the job of President.

    Parent
    Again, I think folks are (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:39:22 AM EST
    wasting their time wondering whether O will run again.  To borrow from BTD, pols are pols and do what they do.  

    What pol-presidents do is run for re-election, almost without exception.  In extraordinary circumstances that is not so -- 1968 -- but even that one turned out to be an intended feint.  Step aside momentarily, while the other two contenders beat each other up and split delegates, then come back later as party healer and take the nom

    O will run again even with 9% unemployment.  Besides being a pol, he knows, as a reasonably smart one (though far from genius) that the other side has to put forth a viable alternative.

    As Lawr O'D was noting last night, the GOP looks like they have no one stronger than a 1996 Bob Dole.  I think that's about right.  Advantage O.

    Parent

    If (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:48:43 AM EST
    unemployment is still hovering around 9% I predict a Bob Dole win this time. People are not going to reward Obama for bad policy just like they didn't reward the Dems yesterday for bad policy.

    Parent
    It really depends on the GOP canidate (none / 0) (#129)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:51:18 AM EST
    even with an extraordinarily bad economy if the GOP does the Presidential equivalent of an O'Donnell/Miller/Angle nomination- i.e. Palin- then Obama wins- likely in a walk.

    Parent
    That (none / 0) (#133)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:54:13 AM EST
    is the ONLY way he wins then and the GOP knows it. McConnell et al. are determined NOT to have a tea party candidate. We shall see if that works out.

    Parent
    indeed (none / 0) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:54:27 AM EST
    and it is written that there are only two possibilities and never shall there be another.  and because it was said, it was so.


    Parent
    O would get a partial (none / 0) (#137)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:57:07 AM EST
    break as they consider the uncooperative corporatist GOP House with its unhelpful tax cuts for the rich, outsourcing, and obstructionist mindset.

    Then we must also consider the possibility in 2012 of other non-economic factors that a president in this era still has to deal with.  One major international crisis he successfully resolves with skill, or terrorist threat -- real and of 9-11 or greater proportions, and thwarted by good O admin preventative measures -- could turn the tide easily.  Especially if his major opponent is Palin or some other lightweight or wacko.  At such times, the electorate would rally around O, or at least want the comfort of the known quantity as against the unknown.

    Fact is, when looking at the list of GOP possibles, they may not -- do not actually -- even match up to the stature of a Bob Dole, who was the best the GOP could offer back then but who at least projected gravitas.

    Advantage O.

    Parent

    I hate the thought (none / 0) (#138)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:57:28 AM EST
    They are announcing more "easing" today though.  Another 500 billion give away to Wall Street, and the jobs situation will not be fixed by it either.  We are so fecked.  The next President will be a Republican in 2012.

    Parent
    Didn't people say to exit pollers they (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:32:15 AM EST
    were pissed about the admins. bailing out Wall St.?

    Parent
    Do you know what happened to (none / 0) (#180)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:49:24 AM EST
    most of the loan money that was freed up too supposedly for the little people and businesses?  Most people had a very difficult time qualifying for it under the old rules of loaning money returning.  The only people who looked like they had enough assets to safely loan the money to was Wall Street playas......so Wall Street has been drinking that too.  Now if Wall Street flushes, all the new loans will be defaulted on too.  Everyone running our economic policy at this moment is a phucking idiot.

    Parent
    I think it is far more likely that when (5.00 / 3) (#171)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:35:50 AM EST
    the history books are written, the man who wants to be considered a more transformative president than Lincoln, FDR and Bill Clinton combined will be remembered as having been the president who ushered in the longest period of Republican domination in generations, continued the effort to eradicate the middle class, chose Wall Street over Main Street, thought putting Granny on the curb was smarter than sending predatory lenders and Wall Street speculators to jail, further eroded privacy and civil rights, and increased executive power to levels that made a mockery of Constitutional principles.

    Primarying him won't work, because we know that he will say whatever he has to to win, will do whatever he has to to win, and doesn't give a rat's a$$ who he has to run over to do it.

    The only way someone else runs in 2012 is if he declines to do so.  What would make him do that?  The offer of something that promises more love and affection than he will be getting from the voters or the media.  He wants what Bill Clinton has, I think - the elder statesman persona and people hanging on his every word, the big bucks rolling in.  

    His dream is becoming a nightmare, and we're all living it now; someone needs to wake him up, but I don't know who that would be.

    Parent

    Actually a lot of Dems (none / 0) (#184)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:02:45 PM EST
    not just O, need to wake up.  Their strategy and messaging for this midterm was just pathétique.  Much work needed there, and obviously some backroom shouting and face-slapping needs to take place.  

    As in Chér in that 80s movie slapping that guy and telling him to Snap out of it!   Or Brando Corleone slapping that wimp in the famous Coppola mob movie and telling him You could start acting like a man!

    Eventually, after some shouting and face slapping, I think Obama, and a few Dem leaders, will eventually wise up and toughen up.  Obama doesn't want to go down as another Jimmy Carter, even as he suspects he won't go down as another FDR.  It's not pretty now, but he knows that with some re-strategizing and a different more determined mindset, to go with a good jobs program, things can change politically in a heartbeat.

    And he knows that people, while disappointed, still basically consider him a likable fellow, not to mention a well-intended guy who was handed two huge problems by his predecessor.  That underlying positive attitude, despite the bad economic numbers, can do wonders to protect and perhaps extend a presidency especially when other unexpected factors come into play, as tends to happen in the modern presidency in this unpredictable world.

    Parent

    Are you (none / 0) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:06:12 PM EST
    sure he knows that? I'm serious. I mean how could he have ever thought he could work with the GOP? Why did he spent literally months begging then to sign onto HCR? I really don't think that he's politically astute enough to do what you think. He's too devoted to the beltway CW that says he needs to move right now.

    Cenk put up a diary at DK about how PPUS has been a failure and you wouldn't believe the vitriol hurled at him.

    Parent

    No, not sure and as I said (none / 0) (#189)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:15:39 PM EST
    this might take a few sessions of some tough grown ups in the party (if they exist) delivering to him directly a tough message about wising up about the oppo, the economy, and maybe one or two other things.

    I don't think he's naturally quite as smart as many of his 08 fervent backers believe, but I think he has enough up there, to go with ambition, plus a lack of stupid stubbornness and of course personal paranoia, that afflicted LBJ, to actually change course and attitude and get back to acting like a competent Dem who cares.

    I'm at best cautiously optimistic he'll finally get it.  He's got another year or so.  Might take that long, but he is who he is -- not Lincoln, not FDR or JFK or even Clinton.  But not as stubborn and paranoid as Johnson and not as personally vindictive and politically obtuse as Carter.

    Parent

    The nightmare I am having is that (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:26:48 PM EST
    it may not be a matter of waking him up - that the policies he is setting and the legislation he is helping craft accurately reflect who he is and what he believes in - and the only way that changes is if he has some kind of epiphany where he realizes that those policies are not what is best for the people, or the country.

    What he needs to be is a Democrat - and not the "new" kind - he needs to be partisan - but on our side of the aisle, not theirs - and I don't know if he has it in him to do that.

    Parent

    Well, he doesn't need (none / 0) (#201)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:38:12 PM EST
    to be a scientist of rocketry to figger out that 9.6% unemp is not the best thing either for the country or for re-elect.  Again, consider that he's not brilliant but not politically stupid or insane as some of his predecessors were.

    So, I suspect there's enough there there for this non-stupid and still ambitious pol to want to chart a different course, though he won't be perfect or pure in the doing, and there's probably going to be a nauseating PPUS move here or there along the way which will irritate people like me but which is something in his nature he will just have to learn, the hard way probably, to mostly keep in check.

    Parent

    Don't you think the Pres. thinks his (none / 0) (#208)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:23:07 PM EST
    policies are best for "his" people?  Does anything else matter to him?

    Parent
    People generally believe what they (none / 0) (#198)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:34:14 PM EST
    want to believe. The majority of the pundits both R and D have put out opinion pieces stating that Obama and the Dems must abandon their liberal (sick joke)  ways and move to the center. IOW he didn't do enough PPUS instead of too much.

    Since Obama's tendency seems to want to go the Republican route, it would be easier for him to believe the CW that is being promoted.  

    Parent

    It appears people did abandon liberal (none / 0) (#206)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:59:18 PM EST
    ways if one looks at how red the country became last night.

    The Democratic voters have a strange way of trying to make things better for themselves.

    Parent

    Don't see where they abandoned liberal ways (5.00 / 2) (#207)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:13:18 PM EST
    To restate a Krugman quote that BTD use in a previous post.

    So, we're already getting the expected punditry: Obama needs to end his leftist policies, which consist of ... well, there weren't any, but he should stop them anyway.

    The voters shunned weak ineffectual policies that the Dems have promoted the last two years. IMO they were not liberal policies but recycled ineffectual Republican policies.  

    Parent

    Not tracking for me. Why elect (none / 0) (#209)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:24:22 PM EST
    Republicans if you don't like Obama's tendency to push Republican policies?

    Parent
    IMO people feel that the government is not (none / 0) (#211)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:46:51 PM EST
    working for them no matter which party is in power. Voters may not understand exactly what liberal or conservative policies mean but they do know if they are working for them. There was a wave in 2006 and 2008 to replace Republicans because of this frustration. No surprise that there is a wave in 2010 due to the same frustration. Keep getting the same policies and the voters may just stay in the "Throw the bums out" mode for quite a while.  

    Parent
    I like to believe in the perfectablity of (none / 0) (#213)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:54:01 PM EST
    humans.  However, listening to tape of Voltaire's "Candide" is disabusing me of this notion!  See discussion of pigeons:  link

    Parent
    I actually posted (none / 0) (#101)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:35:49 AM EST
    a link to that thing yesterday.  its John Fund.

    so consider the source

    Parent

    indie (none / 0) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:31:59 AM EST
    indie indie indie.

    independent.  what to stop him.  pretty much everyone says the country is ready for one.

    if (IF) the candidates are Palin and Obama I would bet a paycheck there will be a viable third party candidate.  it could be Bayh.

    Parent

    You're spending way too (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:44:33 AM EST
    much time worrying about Evan "Buh" Bayh.  

    It doesn't matter if he primaries in 12 or runs in 16, no one outside of his immediate circle of family loyalists is going to get excited about a guy whose personality tends to dim the lights in the room and whose modest center-right policy proposals would barely energize 1.7% of the populace.

    His liberal father at one time -- 1976 -- had a realistic chance at the WH, but not his rather dull, corporatist son.

    Obama has nothing to fret about with Bayh, and no one else is very viable either.  He's still the odds-on fave to run and even win again in 12.

    Parent

    a scenario (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:47:38 AM EST
    in two years Obama has done nothing to excite his base or allay the fears of his detractors.  Palin runs and wins the republican nomination.

    in that scenario, and possibly others, Bayh would get a serious look from a hell of a lot of people.

    and he only needs 33.1%

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:50:43 AM EST
    bland beats scary everyday of the week.

    Parent
    lets face it (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:13:19 AM EST
    in that scenario anyone but Christine ODonnell would get serious consideration.

    Parent
    Nah, he wouldn't get a (none / 0) (#70)
    by brodie on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    serious look from a lotta people because he's going to put them to sleep.

    Think Mark Warner minus all the charisma.

    A viable 3d party candidate has to have at least some minimum amount of pizzazz, solid track record of performance, and some reasonably bold platform to distinguish him/herself to get attention and cause enough voters to do something out of the ordinary and vote 3d party.  Pérot, for all his nuttiness, had most of that.  Possibly Bloomie, who has personality, and who projects strength, confidence and competence.

    But all Buh Bayh offers is a handsome well-scrubbed white face and an uninspiring platform of incrementalism.  Once people hear him speak for longer than 30 seconds however, well there will be danger spots near the back of the room as folks rush for the exits.  

    Wrong candidate with the wrong message -- except possibly for a lot of MSMers who like the bland Broderist centrism Bayh espouses.

    Parent

    Not to mention (none / 0) (#210)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:41:32 PM EST
    a guy who's strongest emotion appears to be a deep self-love.  I can't figure out how he managed to propagate.

    Parent
    The problem (none / 0) (#97)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:31:58 AM EST
    with that scenario- is that the vast, vast majority of those scared by Obama's "radicalism" are those who would vote for Sarah Palin, also in a presidential election you actually have to win states- remember Perot got 19% of the popular vote in 1992 but didn't win a single electoral vote. Seriously, you're arguing that Bayh would be able to carve out a plurality of the popular and win the electoral vote outright (because not winning outright would throw the election to the house of representatives and a third party canidate would lose badly there- heck its basically the only concievable way Palin could win the presidency- win 28% of the popular vote, lose badly in the electoral college, but have a third party splitter keep Obama from reaching 270- thus allowing the GOP majority in the house to give her the presidency).  

    Parent
    you are wrong (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:37:33 AM EST
    there are plenty of people scared by Obama who do not want to vote for Palin.  plenty.

    Parent
    How (none / 0) (#116)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:45:07 AM EST
    exactly is Obama scary- even his biggest detractors on here fault him more for his moderation than for excessive leftism- who exactly holds Obama as a "scary extremist" other than the far right- who would naturally vote Palin-- remember Obama still has a higher approval rating than Clinton or Reagan did at similar points in their first terms- given this I just don't see a huge third party opening.

    Parent
    I am not talking (none / 0) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:48:53 AM EST
    about his detractors "here"


    Parent
    and if you dont know (none / 0) (#125)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:50:11 AM EST
    how and why he scares some people I probably cant explain it to you.

    but he does.  I am not justifying this view only pointing out that its out there.  

    Parent

    After (none / 0) (#131)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:51:26 AM EST
    yesterday, do you not realize that there's nothing more worthless than Obama's approval rating?

    Parent
    Depends on the definition of scary (none / 0) (#144)
    by sj on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:02:27 AM EST
    I find him scary.  Not a bogeyman kind of way.  He's scary to me in the clueless I'll-keep-trying-this-until-it-works-all-evidence-to-the-contrary kind of way.

    And I don't fault him for his moderation.  I fault him for his conservatism.  (BTW:  Not radicalism.  Conservatism.)

    Parent

    Everyone in the country is ready for one? (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:12:04 AM EST
    How well did the Indies do getting votes this round?

    I will say, though, I am extremely impressed with the write-in campaign that took hold in Alaska. Now, that's an example of people standing their ground.

    Parent

    Bayh isn't viable (none / 0) (#100)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:33:49 AM EST
    and a third party canidate would likely need to be able to self-finance or be extraordinarily charismatic (and thus use the Obama model of small donor financing).

    Parent
    why (none / 0) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:36:53 AM EST
    you think giant corporations would not fund Bayh?

    why wouldnt they?


    Parent

    This would happen (none / 0) (#117)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:46:33 AM EST
    but it would be a boondoggle as they'd have to fund him directly on a massive scale and frankly that would undercut the whole "Different Way" advantages of a third party canidate.

    Parent
    ppffft (none / 0) (#130)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:51:19 AM EST
    you dont think Bayh would look like a "different way" from Obama and for instance Palin to the great unwashed?

    whatever.

    Parent

    The problem is (none / 0) (#103)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:36:52 AM EST
    a "real progressive" would get crushed in the primaries- seriously, with the exception of McGovern in 1972- when has the most left-leaning or even the most left-leaning of the major contenders won the nomination- In 2008- that would have been Edwards, in 2004 Dean, in 2000 Bradley, in 1992- Jeffy Brown, etc.

    Parent
    Ugh (none / 0) (#105)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:37:11 AM EST
    "Jerry" Brown.

    Parent
    FDR, LBJ (none / 0) (#112)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:43:10 AM EST
    LBJ (none / 0) (#132)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:52:21 AM EST
    never won a major contested Primary, FDR was nominated prior to the Primary process gaining any steam whatsoever.

    Parent
    LBJ swept 1964 (none / 0) (#148)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:05:56 AM EST
    Fair point (none / 0) (#162)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:25:08 AM EST
    if you know you think 1964 could be replicated and ignore the fact that LBJ was actually the President in 1964.

    Parent
    Anyone who thinks John Edwards was really (none / 0) (#118)
    by tigercourse on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:47:10 AM EST
    left leaning is a fool.

    Parent
    Gotta say, I'm pretty proud of Colorado... (none / 0) (#25)
    by magster on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:30:58 AM EST
    ... all things considering (Channel 7 in Denver reporting that Denver Post projecting Bennet win).  Looking like Dems barely keep the state houses, Governor, Sen, keeping Perlmutter, losing 2 blue dogs, all whack-job amendments defeated.

    Disproving the theory that as go the Broncos, so go the Colorado Dems.

    What worries me... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:47:12 AM EST
    ...is that Cary Kennedy lost to that trust fund corporate sell-out Bush cousin Walker Stapleton in the Treasurer's race.  Talk about putting the fox in charge of the hen house.  

    Did we learn nothing from Silverado or have we forgotten that already?

    I hope we haven't seen the last of Cary--I'd love to see her in the Gov's mansion when Hick is done with it in 8 years.


    Parent

    I'm down with that... (none / 0) (#45)
    by magster on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:55:32 AM EST
    The Bennet call by Denver Post.... (none / 0) (#27)
    by magster on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:33:27 AM EST
    Maybe (none / 0) (#79)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    its so goes the passing game so goes the Dems- I mean the Broncos suck but Orton might end up as a 5000 yard passer this year.


    Parent
    I think Bayh would cream Clinton in Iowa (none / 0) (#38)
    by tigercourse on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:46:04 AM EST
    which is a pretty big part of the nomination.

    Evan Bayh (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:58:27 AM EST
    would lose the A-A vote 95-5 to Clinton.

    He would lose the Latino vote 90-10 to Clinton.

    Evan Bayh has no chance of beating Hillary Clinton.

    Zero. Zip. None.

    In fact, if Clinton runs, Bayh won't.

    Parent

    no chance of beating Hillary (none / 0) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:03:22 AM EST
    I agree
    (which is why I think he may run as an independent in 12)

    Parent
    Clinton came in third in Iowa last time (none / 0) (#59)
    by tigercourse on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:07:52 AM EST
    with only 29% of the vote. We'll likely never know but my money would be on Bayh here.

    Parent
    I'm talking about the nomination (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:22:09 AM EST
    But you know what, I hope Bayh DOES run and DOES win Iowa so we can finally end this absurd Iowa thing.

    Hell, I hope Clinton skips Iowa altogether in that scenario.

    Parent

    If Hillary Clinton skipped Iowa the howls of (none / 0) (#94)
    by tigercourse on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:30:03 AM EST
    "elitist" in the media and the party would be deafening. Quite alot of "who does that &#%(* think she is".

    Parent
    Yes otherwise (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:32:42 AM EST
    the Media would just LOVE Hillary.

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    Iowa remains only 5% minority. (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:35:47 AM EST
    And just how many... (none / 0) (#71)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:15:06 AM EST
    ...AA and Latino's live in Iowa?  Hillary will never win there.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:17:52 AM EST
    but a lot of working class whites do so I wouldn't rule her out if she did decide to run.

    If you took what edwards did in 2008 and added it to Hillary, it looks completely different.

    Parent

    I was not talking about Iowa (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:20:35 AM EST
    I was talking about the nomination.

    Parent
    A lot of Latinos/Latinas, actually (none / 0) (#127)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:50:56 AM EST
    live in Iowa, at least part of the year -- but a lot of them cannot vote.

    Parent
    4.5% in '09. (none / 0) (#136)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:57:00 AM EST
    I wouldn't call that "a lot".  Especially given that the national average is 15.8%

    Link

    Parent

    Comparatively, true (none / 0) (#150)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:08:11 AM EST
    but more than too many people think -- plus, there is the constant problem of undercounting migrants, especially in the Midwest.  

    Btw, one bright spot yesterday:  Wisconsin elected its first Latina to the state legislature.  She looks to be good (which provides some balance vs. the first Latina on the Milwaukee County Board, who continues to be an incredible exemplar of stupidity, which she only compounded yesterday).

    Parent

    And agree, HRC cannot win there (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:54:31 AM EST
    but even worse for any sanity to prevail in the process is that Iowa is too cheap to actually hold primary elections, while it still refuses to give up its hold on the calendar -- and while the Dems keep deferring to Iowans on that.  

    Iowa just must want to be gamed.

    Parent

    Why? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:51:41 AM EST
    Neighboring state?

    Parent
    Check a map! (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:57:31 AM EST
    I am (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:12:23 AM EST
    so bad at geography and I guess it shows Cream!

    Parent
    Awww, that's okay (none / 0) (#178)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:48:25 AM EST
    Easterners get all confused about "all those big square states" west of the Mississippi (repeat: west!), but I can get confused about all those teeny tiny little Eastern states, so small that the names don't even fit on them on the maps, so the names end up floating out in the Atlantic Ocean.:-)

    Parent
    He's seems like the kind of "middle of (none / 0) (#47)
    by tigercourse on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 09:56:58 AM EST
    the road" aw schucks "I'm just a simple country farmer who wants to go to Washington", jack@#& that the voters in Iowa love. He's "one of them".

    Parent
    Is that the way Obama came across (none / 0) (#169)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    in Iowa?  I always thought his touting ethanol got him the caucus win there.

    Parent
    Also helped that (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:27:11 PM EST
    he had by far the best organization since he was in a neighboring state. (and that Edwards and Hillary effectively split whatever portion of the electorate- likely no more than 5% that wouldn't have voted for a black man).

    Parent
    Curious (none / 0) (#217)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 05:35:11 PM EST
    and that Edwards and Hillary effectively split whatever portion of the electorate- likely no more than 5% that wouldn't have voted for a black man).

    Wouldn't that 5% have been more than offset by his effectively splitting whatever portion of the electorate that wouldn't have voted for a woman?

    Parent

    You're kidding. Snark? (none / 0) (#220)
    by Cream City on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 08:05:17 PM EST
    Or do you really think Iowans are that dumb?  They can smell a Chicago pol.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#74)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:16:32 AM EST
    but Iowa never pushed Gephardt over the top.

    Parent
    Liked Dave Weigels (none / 0) (#53)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:02:27 AM EST
    tweet response : "Shut up Quitter."

    Seriously, though what exactly is the constituency of a Bayh presidential run- people who thought Dick Gephardt would have been slamdunk canidate if only he'd been more of a corporate shill?   Bayh would be the single least charismatic canidate since Mondale, but lacks Mondale's resume.   But hey I guess being a lobbyist for the next half decade will really help him burnish those credentials.

    what exactly is the constituency (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:08:46 AM EST
    that would be people who fear both Obama and Palin or whatever nut the republicans put up.

    Parent
    Oh yeah (none / 0) (#69)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:14:33 AM EST
    the Mike Bloomberg constituency, only you know Bayh can't self-finance so even more of a pipe-dream.  Good luck with that Evan.

    Parent
    Bayh (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:17:02 AM EST
    walked away with a 10 million dollar war chest.  many dems who needed that money are plenty pissed about that.  another reason he wont run as a dem.

    thats a pretty good start.  and if you think he would not get doners, including Bloomberg probably, I think you are mistaken.

    Parent

    He'd siphon more GOP votes than Dems (none / 0) (#84)
    by BobTinKY on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:24:30 AM EST
    more power to him

    Parent
    I dont (none / 0) (#89)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:25:45 AM EST
    think so

    Parent
    also (none / 0) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:10:01 AM EST
    in two years the voting public, bless um, will have completely forgotten about him and he will be a "fresh face".  a country boy just like them.


    Parent
    If Haley Barbour (none / 0) (#73)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:15:32 AM EST
    makes it through the GOP Primaries in 2012 without the lobbyist thing sinking him I might think Bayh has a shot.

    Parent
    I think he (none / 0) (#80)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:19:45 AM EST
    is as likely as any of the "boys" to get the nomination.  

    Parent
    Barbour's almost a charicature of the GOP- Rich, White Southern, Good ol Boy, with shady ties to corporate money- having him against Obama in a debate just seems like it would paint the GOP in a bad light.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#68)
    by Socraticsilence on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:13:23 AM EST
    how exactly is immigration reform in any way appealing to the extreme left- many on the hard left would like a tight border control regime (because of the argument that immigration drives down wages and hurts unions)- heck, immigration may be the one issue where an actual (as opposed to the desired) moderate consensus exists- I mean there's a reason the plan the Bush almost passed had backing from a large number of figures on both sides of the aisle before Republicans decided they wanted to commit slow demographic suicide (as a political decision- nothing, and I mean nothing by either side has been as disasterous as the GOP giving into the Tancredo wing- economic mismanagement comes and goes and can tar a party for a decade or two- losing what within a decade or so will make up a third of the national electorate is just freaking moronic- I mean good god if effect is even near what it was for African Americans I just can't see how the GOP wins a Presidential election past 2020).  

    The extreme left? (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:32:48 AM EST
    The 10 people of the extreme left here in the U.S. don't have much impact on politics. Most of the world rolls on the floor laughing when people talk about there being a extreme left or even the hard left here in the good old U.S.A.  

    Parent
    yeah (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 10:38:29 AM EST
    I think the extreme left is us.

    Parent
    I sort of understand where Bayh is going here... (none / 0) (#188)
    by ellengrace on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 12:12:46 PM EST
    As always, I don't agree with him. Bayh is, once again, far too concerned with the steps he deems "necessary" in order to win elections.

    "Congress sought to placate those on the extreme left and motivate the base -- but that meant that our final efforts before the election focused on trying to allow gays in the military, change our immigration system and repeal the George W. Bush-era tax cuts. These are legitimate issues but unlikely to resonate with moderate swing voters in a season of economic discontent."

    True, but even if we focused on other, less divisive issues, the fact remains that it was a midterm election and we still would have not kept the majority in both the House and the Senate. At at least they (finally) attempted to accomplish something with their majority, instead of just pleasing the middle for votes.

    I too spy a 2016 (2012?!) Presidential run. Damn