home

Can The GOP Win The Presidency In 2012?

Silly topic (silly in discussing it now) - can the GOP win the Presidency in 2012? Let's take President Obama's election in 2008 as the baseline and see how it goes.

In 2008, President Obama won with 365 electoral votes, thus with 95 electoral votes to spare. In other words, the GOP would have to pick up 97 EVs to win. What states did Obama win that can go GOP in 2012? Colorado (9 EVs), Florida (projected 29 EVs in 2012), Indiana (11 EVs), Iowa (projected 6 EVs in 2012), Michigan (17 EVs), Nevada (projected 6 EVs in 2012), North Carolina (15 EVs), Ohio (projected 18 EVs in 2012), Pennsylvania (projected 19 EVs in 2012), Virginia (13 EVs) and Wisconsin (10 EVs). In addition, GOP states Texas, Arizona, Georgia, and Utah will add a projected 7 EVs will GOP states Missouri and Louisiana will lose a projected 2 EVs for a net gain of 5 for the GOP. Adding these up we get a total of 154 electoral votes, which would easily put a GOP candidate over the top (195 + 154 = 349.) More . .

I ended up listing a lot of states but the bulk of the electoral votes come from Florida (29), Pennsylvania (19), Ohio (18) Michigan (17), North Carolina (15), Virginia (13), and Indiana (11).

As for the rest, if Harry Reid can win Nevada THIS YEAR, then so SHOULD Obama in 2012, if Bennet can win Colorado THIS YEAR, then so should Obama in 2012. Iowa and Wisconsin, who knows? But let's be optimistic and say Obama holds them. As for the sure losses, Well, let's put North Carolina and Indiana in that column, giving the GOP a 26 EV gain. Add the 5 EV gain from the Census change, and the GOP looks like it has an easy 31 EV gain, leaving 66 EVs to go.

They can get close to half of that by winning Florida's 29 EVs. Right now you would have favor a non-Palin GOP candidate in Florida over Obama. Now they need just 37 EVs more.

Virginia gets them 13 EVs. Only 24 more needed. Win 2 of Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania and the GOP can make Obama a one term President.

Looks like a toss up at best.

Speaking for me only

< Good Leaks, Bad Leaks | Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Short answer? (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 12:45:07 PM EST
    Yes.  It's all about the economy.

    You mention Reid and Bennett, but let's also look at Feingold, and the fact that Obama's Senate seat - in blue Illinois, went to a Republican.  Let's also look at Scott Brown in MA.

    Let's also look that the Dems are defending 23 Senate seats in 2012 (as well as the WH), while the Republicans are defending only 9 (which should be relatively safe).

    Yes, it's all about the economy.

    The Dems defending 23 (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oldpro on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 12:51:42 PM EST
    senate seats should galvanize the GOTV effort in those states, helping Obama at least marginally.  Sort of the reverse coattails strategy...this time it won't be all about him so I wonder what the 'coordinated campaign' will look like...if there is one.

    Parent
    I can tell you (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 12:54:11 PM EST
    anecdotally I know a lot of democrats who voted for Obama in 08 who will not be voting for him again.  a lot.  and not just the blue dog types in arkansas.


    Parent
    A lot of democrats (2.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:14:13 PM EST
    swore they wouldn't vote for him the first time, but did when they actually faced the ballot. It's easy to be bold when it's all just talk.

    My guess is that it will all depend on who runs on the R ticket as to how bold the disgruntled Ds are at ballot time. As horrible as things have gotten, I will vote for the D no matter what in 2012, because things have not hit rock bottom yet.

    I would never, ever have believed that GWB could have won a second term after all the known horrors he delivered to us.

    Parent

    On the other hand (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by sj on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:56:29 PM EST
    A lot of democrats swore they wouldn't vote for him the first time ... and they didn't.

    I know some of them.  And can link to some others.

    Parent

    And, some who swore they wouldn't, and (3.50 / 2) (#187)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:53:12 PM EST
    didn't in 2008, will vote for him in 2012 if it appears a candidate from the opposing party stands a chance of winning.

    He doesn't have a named opponent at this moment, so it's pretty darn hard to say what the outcome will be before we know how much worse or better the other choice is.


    Parent

    yep, that's fair (none / 0) (#196)
    by sj on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:11:47 PM EST
    GWB (none / 0) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:17:38 PM EST
    won a second term because he had the worst democratic challenger since Al Gore.  there are so many reasons that Obamas situation in no way parallels Bushs.

    lets just say it.  there is the race factor for one.

    Parent

    Sure (none / 0) (#4)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 12:53:53 PM EST
    But the Repubs will already have a galvanzied GOTV effort to win the WH, and they also know they are within a hair of taking back the Senate as well.  It just depends who has the better GOTV effort.

    They smell blood in the water.

    Parent

    who would have believed (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 12:52:31 PM EST
    two years ago it would be a toss up?

    Actually (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 12:54:25 PM EST
    I thought so.

    Parent
    Ditto (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by cal1942 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:41:38 PM EST
    I felt that Obama would do great damage to the Democratic Party during the primaries.

    The last thing Democrats (and the nation) needed was to nominate a 'conciliator' with obvious conservative leanings.

    Democrats needed determined solid leadership at the top to get a backbone.  Didn't happen and wasn't going to happen with Obama as the nominee.

    This was and is no time for process liberals.

    Parent

    Dems always fall for (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:17:19 PM EST
    the dynamic orators with highly idealistic themes of Unity and One Happy Purple America.

    Add to that someone with some qualities candidate Joe Biden described so ably in 2007, and with many in the party looking for a Hillary beater other than Edwards, he emerged, thin resume and physique and all.

    I did my best in my own way to warn folks, but, well, in the immortal words of that great stateswoman Chér, You fall in love with who you fall in love with, and meanwhile my preferred candidate was determined to run an uninspiring Orthogonian campaign.

    Parent

    Ahhh, the Orthogonians! (none / 0) (#185)
    by oldpro on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:51:04 PM EST
    Been reading Nixonland?

    Parent
    Moreover (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by sj on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:21:34 PM EST
    The last thing Democrats (and the nation) needed was to nominate a 'conciliator' ...
    ... who can't conciliate his way out of a paper bag.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:30:58 PM EST
    if you look at the polling from 2008 it was neck and neck with McCain until the financial meltdown. So this is no surprise to me.

    Parent
    hey (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:36:33 PM EST
    I get sh!t all the time for saying if not for the meltdown McCain would have won.  who knows but the fact is he literally captured lightening in a bottle.  all he would have had to do is what he said he was going to do.  or even TRY to do those things.

    I was thinking about that.  I think he really does not understand why people are upset.  the reason is he promised them nothing.  well except for ending DADT, public option, etc.  but basically I think he thought he was doing what pols do.  and no one would care if he did not deliver.  to a large degree I think he won because many MANY people projected their own hope and change into that mantra.  maybe it was genius marketing or maybe it was dumb luck but it was an amazing thing.

    but I really think in his own mind he is governing exactly the way the campaigned.  as there is an argument to be made that he is.


    Parent

    He also doesn't seem to grasp (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by nycstray on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:42:30 PM EST
    what people's lives are really like. He's disconnected.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:49:14 PM EST
    I mostly agree. I think that he never articulated clearly an agenda so people pretty much decided what he was for and he did just mirror their wants.

    I was never much of a fan of Dean back in 2004 but there are some things to be learned from his campaign. He picked four issues and drove them home continually. Hillary understood this too. Obama not so much.

    Obama never campaigned for a mandate on issues so he didn't get one therefore this huge pile of mush that is happening on legislation. It's kind of like Jimmy Carter campaigning on the fact that he would never lie to the country and what was the issues there?

    Parent

    he was (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:52:11 PM EST
    sort of the ultimate blank slate.  who ended up being an empty suit.

    Parent
    An empty suit like a fox (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:01:33 PM EST
    He's getting EXACTLY what he wants.

    Parent
    he wanted to be (3.00 / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:05:01 PM EST
    a punchline.  a contender for the worst president since the last one and the biggest disaster for democrats since Jimmy Carter?

    if you say so.

    Parent

    You're forgetting (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:16:15 PM EST
    You're forgetting that HE will never see it that way.

    And his efforts will reap large financial rewards for himself.  

    He has 2 things going for him.  Egotistical denial and forthcoming riches.  He is putting himself in the best possible position.

    Parent

    I think the bubble (none / 0) (#165)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:21:38 PM EST
    will only last so long.

    Parent
    Agree on invoking (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:06:56 PM EST
    some similarities with O and the '76 Carter campaign that was long on nice-sounding, idealistic, liberal rhetoric but short on substance.  I think O's backers really fell so head over heels that they couldn't or wouldn't hear anything but that he was more liberal than HRC and all the rest was just understandable campaign positioning.  

    Plenty of smart folks believed this.  And with such a scant track record in holding important elective office, it was all too easy for them to see the pol they wanted to see.

    The Q now is whether O is going to stubbornly  Jimmy Carter himself to a one-term presidency.

    Right now, I strongly suspect only an unexpected foreign crisis/terrorism incident of major proportions is going to pull his chestnuts out of the fire -- particularly when the electorate is forced between choosing Palin or O.

    Parent

    After that happened (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by cal1942 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:44:17 PM EST
    Democrats could have won running the donkey.

    Parent
    Why bother? Let Obama win reelection (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by observed on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 12:56:43 PM EST
    and they'll pass everything they want, anyway---and then be able to blame Obama for the inevitable consequences of following Republican eonomic policies. It's really a stroke of genius.
    Obama may cause a depression by being "too liberal", while he in fact is the second coming of Hoover. Just imagine what Hoover would have done in 1933, and that will help you imagine things in 2017.

    If only he'd decide not to run... (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by masslib on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:10:07 PM EST
    He's been absolutely the wrong leader for the times we are in.  Will he win?  Will the GOP?  Neither thought is anything less than depressing.

    What would convince him not to run? (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by observed on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:13:35 PM EST
    The worse the results of his decisions, the more convinced he is that he's not communicating his full genius enough. He'll never blame himself, or see his own shortcomings; on that score, Michele---you're so lucky someone this smart deigned to enter politics---will be no help either.
    I'm honestly thinking he is not as smart as W., who at least was canny.

    Obama is like the guy who is convinced he is the funniest guy in the room, when in fact no one EVER finds him funny.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:41:56 PM EST
    Bush wasn't smart. If he was smart he would not have gone into Iraq. His father was smart. W. was a big dumb bully and bullying and calling people names was how he got things done.

    W. is the uncle that comes to the holidays, gets drunk and puts the lampshade on his head.

    Obama is the puffed up uncle who comes for the holidays who spends the entire time telling you how smart he is.

    Both of them send all the family members running out of the room to get away from them.


    Parent

    Bush had a modest learning curve; (none / 0) (#22)
    by observed on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:47:06 PM EST
    Obama's is completely flat. In fact, he's gone backward.

    Parent
    Only a very narrow (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:23:31 PM EST
    set of circumstances would have to be present to stop O from running again because once there, they always want to run again.*

    Unemployment would have to be at today's levels or higher, with prospects not good for improvement, the Afghan situation drags on with troops staying longer than originally promised.  

    Then with the Dem base's support clearly collapsing in 2011, even some of his most fervent supporters, including many in the CBC and other major black leaders, get together privately and decide they need to organize a group of party leaders and elders to go to the WH to get him to step aside.

    * HST doesn't count, he'd already been prez for 8 years, nearly 2 full terms; LBJ -- well, when he got out it turns out he actually meant it only as a temporary stay on the sidelines ...

    Parent

    Step aside? For whom??? (none / 0) (#190)
    by oldpro on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:57:57 PM EST
    President Polident. (none / 0) (#193)
    by observed on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:05:02 PM EST
    Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Michigan for Obama (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by Dan the Man on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:39:32 PM EST
    I wouldn't bet too much on Nevada going Obama.  Nor Minnesota - although I would say it leans Obama.

    I would say Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Michigan are going Obama though.  Why?

    Black voters made of 20% of Virginia voters in 2008, and the white voters who supported Obama tended to be latte-imported-progressives.  Those voters are going to stick with Obama in 2012. Obama won by 6% point in 2008.  So I would say Obama wins in Virginia even if it's narrowly.

    Penn will also go Obama in 2012.  Sestek only lost by 2% point in 2010, and if you look at the exit polls, it says only 8% of the 2010 voters were black while 13% of the voters were black in 2008.  Those extra black voters will give Obama the win in 2010.

    Michigan: Obama won by 16+% point in 2008.  Black voters made up around 11% of the voters in 2008.  And the large number of academic campuses tend to be made up of latte-progressives.  Those voters are going to stick with Obama in 2012.  So even if the union vote diminishes drastically for Obama, it'll still be difficult for any Republican to win Michigan in 2012.

    I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:43:42 PM EST
    I'm from Michigan - second highest unemployment in the country, and it doesn't look to get better any time sooner. Also have a Democratic Senator up for re-election (Stabenow), who always has had tough races.  She may pull it out, but it may not be enough to drag Obama with her.  Also, no Democratic governor to rally the state party behind him.

    Virginia - I live there now.  This state is going back red.  Jim Webb is up for re-election and if he wants to win, he'll have to pull to the right.  Obama is not very popular here (except NoVa) right now. I also point to Creigh Deeds as exhibit #1 (another loss on Obama's resume).

    Parent

    With the importance of the Big 3 and unions in (none / 0) (#95)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:32:49 PM EST
    Michigan, I see no way the GOP wins there.

    Penn is always the Charlie Brown football for the GOP as well.  The Dems will scrounge up enough votes.  Its all going to be about Ohio and Florida IMO.  If the GOP wins those 2 states (right now they would), add the easy wins I believe of NC and Ind, and it will be close.  If Obama clips them in either Ohio or Florida, game over for the GOP.  Let's just hope they nominate Palin and make it easy.

    Parent

    If Obama holds serve in Penn and (none / 0) (#125)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:52:31 PM EST
    Michigan...and collects the dividends of the GOP's Latino bashing in Nevada and Colorado, he wins....

    ..... and wins even without Ohio, Florida, North Carolina or Viriginia (where according to one reputable polling outfit he is ahead right now.)

    The Latino vote in the West is becoming to the Democrats what the White vote is in the South to the Republicans....Latinos make Obama hard to beat in 2012.

    Parent

    VA is gone (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:43:43 PM EST
    Do you really think No. VA is going to show up for someone who thought freezing their salaries was a good idea?

    Parent
    You are two years out (none / 0) (#24)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:48:35 PM EST
    and nothing is gone two years out.

    Obama is at low tide right now....

    Parent

    They are (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:53:52 PM EST
    still going to be under a pay freeze in 2012 are they not?

    I don't see Obama carrying VA again. A few point swing and it's gone.

    Parent

    He is ahead in Virginia right now (none / 0) (#128)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:53:32 PM EST
    That is the actual data.....And that is the only rational basis for this premature speculation.....

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:56:16 PM EST
    same poll says he's carrying NC. Right? You really have some rose colored glasses on don't you?

    And it has a huge MOE too.

    Parent

    A different poll (none / 0) (#137)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:58:09 PM EST
    shows him competitive in NC. I say again: the burden is on you to give a reason why we should discount these polls.

    Parent
    The demographics (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:01:56 PM EST
    aren't there in NC for an Obama win if the GOP base shows up. Same for VA, Same for GA. Since this is all identity politics and there really aren't any issues to vote for anyway.

    Parent
    Different poll, same pollster (none / 0) (#202)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:32:51 PM EST
    but an accurate pollster....

    At least it is data.....

    Parent

    Indeed (none / 0) (#135)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:57:01 PM EST
    Obama is at low tide right now.... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:51:22 PM EST
    hopefully

    Parent
    I would actually put money (none / 0) (#33)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:52:57 PM EST
    on Obama winning Virginia again.

    Parent
    Why? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:54:50 PM EST
    I don't see it. Look at what happened in November. I know that's a midterm but still it was such a wipeout of the Dems in the state.

    Parent
    To begin with (none / 0) (#49)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:59:43 PM EST
    there this (PDF).

    It's all about who shows up.

    Parent

    Guess who's left Michigan? (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:02:11 PM EST
    In the greatest numbers?

    YOUNG PEOPLE.

    Parent

    Which has effall to do (none / 0) (#61)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:07:24 PM EST
    with Virginia.

    Parent
    So it's the wrong comment (none / 0) (#65)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:12:47 PM EST
    Big deal - point still remains the same for your comment downthread.

    Can't build a successful run for POTUS on the "young" vote (which, as we know, really didn't show up in 2008 in any greater numbers then they did for Kerry - how'd that work out?)

    Parent

    As you well know, (none / 0) (#78)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:20:32 PM EST
    it's not just the young. It's also the non-white.

    Parent
    Here's (none / 0) (#83)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:25:49 PM EST
    Some interesting analysis from right after the election.

    It won't be as easy as you think it will be.

    Parent

    From what I know of him (none / 0) (#94)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:32:26 PM EST
    Sean Trende is a nice enough guy. But he is also a conservative Republican with an agenda. He is obviously right that recreating the 2008 electorate will not be sufficient to produce a win for Obama. But he implicitly concedes that there is a substantial difference between the 2008 and 2010 electorate, and that the difference strongly favored Republicans.


    Parent
    IMO (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:28:12 PM EST
    its not the non whites Obama should be worring about.

    Parent
    Does it have offal to do (none / 0) (#130)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:55:38 PM EST
    with Virginia?....

    Parent
    I still (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:05:04 PM EST
    don't see it even though that poll says differently. Why didn't all these people who supposedly love Obama show up when he campaigned for the Gov. and everybody else? That poll doesn't really deal with the an unmotivated base which I guess gets back to what you were saying about people showing up.

    Parent
    Midterm elections have lower (none / 0) (#140)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:59:44 PM EST
    turnout and older electorate.....

    2010 is easy to understand.  You had motivated Republicans and 9.6% unemployment.....

    The Democratic vote was average for off year elections and in some instances a little better.  The GOP vote was very high...

    If unemploymnet is in the lower 8% range and improving, Obama sails to victory....Most forecasts say that....But true, if a second round of foreclosures stalls the economy, then all bets are off.

     

    Parent

    I understand (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:06:51 PM EST
    the midterms but I don't see things changing enough between now and 2012 for Obama. I mean he's continuing to capitulate to the GOP. Unless he turns it around and shows some fight why do you think that people are going to show up in 2012 like they did in 2008? In 2008 Obama had the perfect storm. He's not going to have that in 2012. More than likely he'll still have high unemployment and he's no long the "new guy" with "no record". He can't run around expecting people to vote for PPUS when it's been a disaster and besides who trusts him to do what he says? He went around before the midterms talking about how bad the GOP was and now it's total capitulation.

    Parent
    I understand that is your view-- (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:35:33 PM EST
    some of which I share....

    But I think you project, and assume your view will be shared by the majority.....Remember, this blog is the epicenter for those who never had an overly fond view of Obama to begin with, and represents a liberal view of disappointment.....That is not your average voter.

    And there will be more Latinos in 2012.  And those young-ins will still be there and be four years older and more likely to vote just based on being older, and will be buttressed by another crop too who are now able to vote....Overall demographics favor the Democrats over time....

    Current polling, past historical elections, an economy that most show as improving if only slightly, all tend to favor an incumbent.

    Of course, events will change the current state of things....But if we are to specuclate at present, then the current state of affairs favors Obama.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:43:03 PM EST
    it's not only this blog if you are talking blogs. Have you been to Kos or FDL? There's plenty of people who feel the same way. The only difference is that he unfortunately has met my worst expectations for him or actually he's even worse than I expected.

    I fully expect Obama to well with Latinos due the GOPs hatred of them. That, however, does not translate into a lot of states like NC and VA. Right now he's even losing FL isn't he?

    I fully expect the youth vote to not be there for Obama in 2012. I will be surprised if they are. He promised them all kinds of things that he has not done and the main thing was the war wasn't it? It's not like 2008 for them. He was the shiny new toy then but he has lost his luster. That group is the hardest to get to show up too.

    I really don't see it favoring nor disfavoring him. I see it as in flux depending on who the GOP nominates and a bunch of other factors. The only thing he has going for him right now is incumbency but that also could turn out to be a huge negative too.

    Parent

    "Shiny new toy" (none / 0) (#183)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:49:25 PM EST
    You have a certain point of view that is distinct from many, many others....

    And, the Latino vote is not Democratic just based on the GOP's bigottry.....Latinos are a natural Democratic voting bloc....for many reasons....

    It is interesting to look at how left most of Latin America is now....Calderon won the Mexican Presidency because of Hugo Chavez's meddling....

    But look at Lula and everywhere else....

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#188)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:53:35 PM EST
    W. certainly did well with Latinos all things considered so I would say they are more of a swing vote in a lot of ways. Of course, he is probably the exception to that rule w/r/t the GOP.

    Parent
    I think this comment is on target (none / 0) (#178)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:40:13 PM EST
    Nevada will go for Obama (none / 0) (#32)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:52:35 PM EST
    He won it by 12% last time.  The Democratic GOTV there is insanely good.  That is why Harry Reid outperformed the public opinion polls by 8-9 points.....

    Republican Latino bashing has made Nevada a Blue state....

    Nevada is becoming a clone of California.....

    Parent

    My suspicion is (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:54:29 PM EST
    that polling in Nevada may improve once the new census results are released.

    Also, I think we're at the point where, in states where particularly young voters are a factor, cell phone free polls must be discounted.

    Parent

    Yes, all good points (none / 0) (#97)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:33:48 PM EST
    Interestingly, the internal polls of both the Reid and Angle campaigns--unlike the public polls--always showed Reid ahead....This was in a LA Times article, iirc my source....

    I remember hearing Reid's campaign say late in the cycle that they were 5 points ahead after one of the Rasmussen polls showed Angle with a clear lead--and everyone thought that Reid was just blowing smoke.  The difference in the bad polls and good internal polls was making follow up calls to the same number to get a response....that takes more money than the public polls want to spend....The harder to reach people both via land lines and cell phones are Democratic voters....The pros know this.....

    Parent

    The question is whether (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:51:46 PM EST
    we're back to the model of the two cycles before last where one state makes the difference. If we are, then we can start doing electoral vote math.

    But I suspect that Obama still has the inside track. Virginia, Colordao, and Nevada look good, but New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan are of some concern.

    I think one big thing to consider is that the electorate is now hugely polarized by age. And that works in Obama's favor.

    it only works (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:54:06 PM EST
    in his favor if young people vote.

    Parent
    I'm optimistic about this (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:57:02 PM EST
    Unless we go into severe double-dip.

    Voters are not frozen in time, and people who could vote first in a Presidential election in 2004 (i.e., my peers) are now in their mid-20s.

    Lots of new voters are minted every year, and Obama will win them 60/40.

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:59:06 PM EST
    I work with a lot of those first time voters.  and the ones I talk to are pi$$ed.

    Parent
    Young people (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Coral on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:27:31 PM EST
    will be too stressed-out trying to find jobs or find a way to pay for college.

    When Obama ran there were lots of college and early-post college kids who had the luxury of time and a much better economy and access to jobs.

    I've got a kid who was working for Obama when she had a full-time job. She is now out of work.

    Another was in a big-name college, and all her friends were going nuts for Obama. She graduated a year ago is just about the only one of her friends who has been working consistently.

    The world has changed dramatically for the worse since 2008.

    Parent

    You can only be a novelty once and only (none / 0) (#54)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:02:46 PM EST
    for so long.  In 2008, young people got excited about this new phenomenon in American politics.  In 2012, he will no longer be fresh and in mint condition.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:58:43 PM EST
    that works against Obama since the younger voters are much less likely to show up than the older voters.

    Parent
    There is a difference (none / 0) (#50)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:00:25 PM EST
    between Presidential elections and midterms.

    Parent
    One election does not make a trend line. (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:04:57 PM EST
    Usually, the candidate counting on the youth vote is the loser.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:06:21 PM EST
    anyone who thinks the young are going to show up for Obama the way they did in 08 is going to be disappointed imo.

    Parent
    Younger voters show up (none / 0) (#59)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:06:45 PM EST
    more regularly for Presidential elections. And unless you think the young people will vote for a Republican this time, the pattern will continue.

    Parent
    So does everyone else, which is the problem. (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:12:25 PM EST
    The issue is that they broke prior standards and showed up in record numbers in 2008 to support this young, new, charismatic leader running a historic candidacy.  I think if Obama needs that same level of excitement from this age group to show up in 2012, he will be disappointed.

    Parent
    Young voters (none / 0) (#69)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:15:50 PM EST
    Nationally, were about 18% of the electorate in 2008. In 2004, they were 17%.

    Parent
    Both Presidential elections (none / 0) (#75)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:18:22 PM EST
    now compare to midterm turnout and make my point for me.

    Thanks.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:07:27 PM EST
    but historically young voters have a poor record of showing up. And since Obama hasn't kept his promises to them so far, why would they show up in 2012?

    Parent
    Assuming Obama runs a competent campaign (none / 0) (#63)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:11:51 PM EST
    he will make them think it's worth their while to show up.

    Of course, if he runs an incompetent campaign, he will lose.

    Parent

    I honestly (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:14:08 PM EST
    dont think the campaign had that much to do with his appeal to young people.  

    he was the bright shiny new thing.  and as has been said.  the shine had dulled.  the thrill is gone.

    Parent

    Lots of time between now and 2012 (none / 0) (#73)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:17:36 PM EST
    My view is that Obama has more upside potential than down.

    Parent
    Of courrse, he does (none / 0) (#87)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:27:29 PM EST
    That is the best objective reading of history and actual data....Rather than people's individual guts.....

    Parent
    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:30:14 PM EST
    has been sloppin over with "potential upside" for two years.  what the hell has he done with it.

    that is exactly the problem.

    Parent

    Capt., the real issue (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:40:22 PM EST
    is not whether Obama will win....The odds strongly favor him....All this compromising that most here hate, will most likely help.....Look at how Gallup is moving....

    As much as many here do not like Sully, he is a type of Independent voter who Obama got last time....and they like the Catfoot Commission two-step.  I do not advocate that approach and think an approach to favor the base a la Rove and Bush would be better.  But the way to protect Social Security is to give the Democratic Senators backbone--all you need is 41 Democrats to do that....Republicans and Obama notwithstanding....

    The real issue is what would an Obama second term mean for liberals?.....That is the more interesting question.  

    Obama will find a way to win....

    Parent

    IMO you are far to confident (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:44:58 PM EST
    if possibly correct.  the thing is Obama won the last time with a perfect storm of high turnout among the young and a financial collapse that as someone said would probably have propelled a donkey into the oval office.  

    the next time he will have neither of those.  what he WILL have is a disillusioned base, a whole bunch of pi$$ed off and terrified old white peolle and a hella motivated tea party.

    Parent

    But Obama also faced (none / 0) (#194)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:05:45 PM EST
    disadvantages too.....He was too foreign....he was too inexperienced on foreign policy....This Jeremiah Wright stuff hurt....

    He was a terrorist who hung out with Bill Ayers....but now has bombed the bejesus out of Pakistan....

    Now, he is Mr. Middle of the road Moderate....People (maybe not here) will have a greater comfort level with him in general....especially if the economy does well.

    As much as it may not suit many here, or me to a certain extent, Obama is getting high marks on foreign policy.....Unless Afghanistan blows up, he would have knocked down McCain's best argument--that he was too inexperienced and would blow it in foreign policy.....

    Does anyone think Obama naive on foreign policy anymore?  Looking a little too much like Kissinger for my likes.....

    Parent

    sorry this seems rather disconnected (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:13:20 PM EST
    first I think its mostly Hillary who is getting hight marks for FP.
    and who, seriously, do you know who "have a greater comfort level with him in general".
    he is still too foreign.

    and "Mr. Middle of the road Moderate" are you freakin kidding me.  he is a marxist socialist revolutionary.

    and while I get the "many here" references, please do not include me in that.  I have been supporting and defending him for two years as much as I possibly could.  nothing I have said has the slightest thing to do with Hillary or the primary.

    I get the need to spin for the guy you want to win.  I do it.  but I would seriously suggest to you that you are seeing a far rosier picture than the one that actually exists.


    Parent

    The (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:45:23 PM EST
    compromising completely de-motivates the people he needs to show up and independents say they like bipartisanship but in reality all they really like are results.

    Parent
    He'll completely lose his base (none / 0) (#122)
    by masslib on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:50:57 PM EST
    if he tries to please the few Andrew Sullivan voters out there by effing with SS.  The Republicans got totally burned by that in 2006.  It's not just a Democratic issue.  Most Americans don't want SS touched.

    I agree though, he certainly is the favorite to win, but not because of his unity shtick.   More because there is no room to the Right of him to appeal that appeals to enough voters, and there's no one to the Left of him.

    Parent

    there's no one to the Left of him. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:52:52 PM EST
    yet

    Parent
    There won't be in 2012. (none / 0) (#129)
    by masslib on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:54:34 PM EST
    No one who can attract enough voters to dislodge him anyway.

    Parent
    could easily (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:55:54 PM EST
    be Nadered IMO

    Parent
    Howard Dean or Russ (none / 0) (#195)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:06:45 PM EST
    are only viable possibilities....and they probably won't run....

    Parent
    its two years away (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:15:59 PM EST
    we could not possibly have the slightest idea who could appear in the next two years.

    and the do not even have to have a chance to win to be able to suck enough votes from him to make him lose.

    Parent

    I agree. It's not whether he wins it's what he (none / 0) (#204)
    by esmense on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:41:57 PM EST
    does that's most important. For a majority of the country's citizens sake it would be better if he based his policies on what is best for the broadest number of Americans long term, rather than what he thinks is best for his election prospects short term. But he's a pol, and that's not going to happen.

    Like many other business owners I can tell you that we started seeing sales tick up in October -- we think 2010 was the bottom (for awhile at least) and we anticipate substantial improvements in the spring. Many middle class, and certainly most affluent, voters (who vote in greater percentages than the working class, the young and the poor) have taken their economic  hits from the recession, recovered (or discovered they weren't hit that bad afterall) and are once again (rightly or wrongly) confident and willing to spend. It's quite likely they'll also be feeling much better about the economy (at least as it affects them) in 2012.

    Like other small business owners in my industry who I have talked with recently, I can't help but notice that our recent increased sales is based almost entirely in the return of the most affluent customers and their willingness to purchase big ticket items. The working class hobbyist isn't back in the market yet, and may never be. What was left of the broad American consumer market after the last deep recession, in the early 80s, will, unless one more shaky credit bubble can be concocted, probably be finished off by this one. If you can compete successfully with everyone else to serve the most upscale, small in number but ever richer, market of consumers you'll do okay. Which is, apparently, the strategy both Democrats and Republicans have settled on for political survival too.

    It's likely to be a workable strategy too. Until and unless the growing number of people who haven't been and won't be well served by this state of affairs (who coincidentally are the people least likely to vote) decide to cause trouble and demand change.

    Parent

    Yes in that an incumbent P (none / 0) (#99)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:36:28 PM EST
    always has a slight advantage, and things can happen unexpectedly.

    How many predicted the financial collapse which helped push O over the top against McLame?

    We could see similar, only in the foreign crisis/terrorism area, and so far the country has given him good marks here, trumping civil liberties concerns mostly from the lib left.  Though the recent TSA nonsense has nicked him.

    Rs still need to put up a plausible alternative no matter how much discontent O is now getting from his base.  If it's Palin or Gingrich, I like his chances.

    Parent

    Are you factoring in the Cat Food (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by observed on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:55:25 PM EST
    SS cuts?
    Do you really think Obama will win after being the Democratic President who slashes the single most successful and popular Democratic program ever???

    or not (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:57:53 PM EST

    Delaying Vote, Debt Panel Splits on Taxes and Spending

    WASHINGTON -- The chairmen of President Obama's debt-reduction commission have been unable to win support from any of the panel's elected officials for their proposed spending cuts and tax increases, underscoring the reluctance of both parties to risk short-term political backlash in pursuit of the nation's long-term fiscal health.

    in any case the whole point of the commission is so he can avoid responsibility.  just like the one he formed yesterday with Baucus representing democrats.  he forms a commission so when it comes time to do what he said he would never ever do he can blame someone else.

    Parent

    Mosy of this discussion (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:24:25 PM EST
    frankly reminds me of the period after the Pennsylvania primary in 2008.

    That's why I always look to the polls before I make pronouncements based on my sense of the political environment. The head-to-head polling shows that Obama is in an arguably precarious position right now, but far from dead.  

    Everything else is just noise (mostly people projecting their own feelings onto the electorate).

    *most (none / 0) (#82)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:24:42 PM EST
    trust me (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:26:42 PM EST
    when I say I think Obama has a better than even chance of losing it has absolutely nothing to do with my projected feelings about him.  only his chances dispassionately observed.

    Parent
    Unless you consider the polling, (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:27:53 PM EST
    I would say that your analysis lacks rigor.

    Parent
    and I think (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:31:37 PM EST
    you put far to much faith in polling.  particularly this far out it is meaningless.

    Parent
    It is more meaningful (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:33:15 PM EST
    than conjecture about what people you know say and feel.

    Parent
    that would make (none / 0) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:35:02 PM EST
    this an entirely pointless conversation.  

    which is what I suppose this

    (silly in discussing it now)

    means


    Parent

    Let me just say this: (none / 0) (#101)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:37:20 PM EST
    People who say "don't trust the polls" have a pretty heavy burden to overcome.

    Parent
    that not what I said actually (none / 0) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:39:06 PM EST
    but the fact is the sort of polls you are talking about had Harry Reid losing for a year.

    Parent
    I will take my licks on Reid, (none / 0) (#108)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:41:36 PM EST
    but he is the exception that proves the rule (along with Nevada in general).

    Parent
    Also Colorado (none / 0) (#157)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:15:18 PM EST
    All the public polls had Buck ahead of Bennet.  

    Most of the polls in fact understated Democratic support even in those states where the Democrat lost....

    It is the failure to poll cell phones and hard to reach land lines.....

    Parent

    Ah, but those polls (none / 0) (#154)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:13:19 PM EST
    understated Democratic support.....because they did not poll cell phones or hard to get land lines....

    Harry's internals always showed him ahead...

    So, if anything the current polls may understate Obama's strength....

    That is why it is interesting to look at the issue polls and the overall job approval polls that Gallup does.   On very single issue poll,  Obama is abysmal.  Overall job approval much better and at 47% today.  In the black by two points....I chalk up that difference to unhappy and worried people (thus the issue polls) who like Obama personally and want him to succeed (the reason for the better overall job approval).

    Parent

    but...but!! (none / 0) (#152)
    by lilburro on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:12:11 PM EST
    I have a friend!!

    I'm not too worried about 2012.  I am curious as to how different Obama's campaign will be though (in terms of fundraising, grassroots support, etc.).  If he needs to, maybe he'll throw the Hail Mary of having Hillary Clinton as his VP.  That will probably seal up the black magic former Senatorial candidate vote, anyway.

    Parent

    "black magic?" (none / 0) (#159)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:16:09 PM EST
    WTF?

    Parent
    Talking about (none / 0) (#171)
    by lilburro on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:29:46 PM EST
    Christine O'Donnell...link

    Parent
    Got it....thanks,,,, (none / 0) (#189)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:55:42 PM EST
    yeah (none / 0) (#105)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:39:30 PM EST
    but none of the polling has a realistic likely voter model at this point either.

    Parent
    Likely voter models in Presidential elections (none / 0) (#111)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:43:58 PM EST
    are much easier than midterms.

    Likely voters in Presidential elections look substantially like registered voters.

    That said, if you have some specific reason to think that current polling is wrong for some reason, please say so.

    Parent

    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:48:36 PM EST
    it's taking into account how motivated the GOP is at this point to get rid of Obama and how unmotivated the Dem base is. Of course, that's the kind of thing that will likely show up closer to the Presidential election.

    Parent
    And the Democratic base won't similarly (none / 0) (#121)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:50:28 PM EST
    turn out to reelect Obama. If that is your prediction, say so.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:58:26 PM EST
    pretty much unless something changes over the next two years. I would think that a lot of the Dem base is going to be sitting it out.

    Parent
    This is where you need to show your work (none / 0) (#142)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:00:42 PM EST
    Where is your evidence?

    Parent
    Total (5.00 / 3) (#153)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:13:14 PM EST
    capitulation to the GOP on every issue. Do you think that motivates Dems to come out? I can tell you in my experience it does not. And if there's a third party to park their votes on, they will probably get over the 5%.

    I mean what are people going to show up for? Obama can't use Roe v. Wade anymore after the Stupak capitulation. SS? Total capitulation with the cat food commission? Get us out of Iraq? We'll still be there in 2012. Is the Dem base now supposed to support tax cuts for millionaires and bailouts of Wall Street? Total capitulation on DADT so far? In a close election, the gay population sitting home could cause a loss for Obama.

    Parent

    You can vomit up all sorts (none / 0) (#158)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:15:41 PM EST
    of valid reasons to be furious with the President. However, we're still talking about a Presidential election. The base will have a reason to vote, count on it.

    Parent
    Give me hope (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by sj on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:23:56 PM EST
    What will that reason be?  

    Because lesser of two evils is no longer cutting it.

    Parent

    For you, maybe? (5.00 / 0) (#168)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:24:53 PM EST
    For most Democrats, including me, the Supreme Court is more than enough.

    Parent
    It's important, to be sure (none / 0) (#175)
    by sj on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:34:55 PM EST
    And I can see it being a tipping factor.  But is it enough to bring some one to the polls?

    The call for the Supreme Court has traditionally been coupled with Roe v Wade and there's no strong Dem support there anymore.

    You say it's enough for you.  That's not nothing.  But I don't think any one individual -- you or me -- should even pretend that we speak for most Democrats.  

    Parent

    Don't (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:28:37 PM EST
    bet on it. I've seen them sit home before so I wouldn't bet on them showing up this time either. He's going to have to come up with something better than he's come up with so far to get people to the polls.

    Are you old enough to remember Jimmy Carter? Not that I think Obama would lose to a Republican in a landslide because there are enough people that hate the GOP now but enough sitting home could throw the election.

    Parent

    The Democratic base (none / 0) (#161)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:19:50 PM EST
    was not all that unmotivated historically for midterm elections....The Republicans were just more motivated.....

    The polling this time around gave short shrift to  major Democratic candidates....Brown, Boxer, Reid, Bennet, and even Russ did better on election day than the public polls....

    Parent

    And what's (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:30:48 PM EST
    to say that they aren't even more unmotivated after two more years of this crap Obama's been serving? I mean really it's getting to the point that someone like Romney who is squishy on social issues could collect some votes after so many of Obama's capitulations.

    Parent
    Obama would skewer Romney (none / 0) (#200)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:20:54 PM EST
    Obama was itching to run against Romney in 2008--needling him to no end about this and that.  At one point, Obama said that on a per delegate-won basis, Obama was spending far less money....and said that Obama's "ROI" was much better than Romney the financial tycoon's.  Tossing in a little CEO-speak to taunt Romney as he was flailing....

    ....Romney would have to explain Romneycare and abortion and being Mormon (again) and firing workers being while in the private sector, and opposing a successful auto bailout.....explain, explain, explain.....

    And the Primary, Huckabee will blast him on Romneycare....Huckabee already has a commerical about repealing Obamacare....Palin will hit Mr. Ken Doll hard as an out-of-touch elitist.  What is left of Romney will take one for the team.

    The Mormon to watch is not Romney but Huntsman....but he is in China.....courtesy of Obama.....

    Regardless of his policies, which have their problems, Obama knows how to win and marginalize his opponents.....Does anyone here really disbelieve that?

    The only candidate who really has a good chance of winning is Huckabee.  Obama would have a hard time getting a fix on him.....This is why I hope Palin runs--to split the social conservative vote and let Romney squeek through....  

    Parent

    It (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:31:45 PM EST
    isn't 2008 and Obama is going to have a record to run on and it's not a good one so far. You know Romney can win by default just like Obama did.

    Actually the fact that he might have to explain his stance on abortion and the fact that he is squishy on those issues might help him.

    And Obama is hardly going to go after him for "romney care" when he passed pretty much the same thing.

    Romney would definitely make it interesting. He would probably do well out west even making a state like Nevada a challenge for Obama but making the south closer IMO.

    The GOP will never nominate Huckabee. The club for growthers hate the guy whereas Romney is at least tolerable to them.

    And frankly, I think a lot of people have an arrogant attitude with regards to a lot of these candidates. Reminds me of Carter in 1980 who said he wanted to go against Reagan. How did that end up?

    In the end any of them could win the presidential election because I've seen too many times how the "ideal" opponent ended up winning against someone you thought "couldn't lose".

    If Obama is smart he won't underestimate ANY of these candidates but he seems to think that he can't lose. Big mistake.

    Parent

    evidence? (none / 0) (#145)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:03:11 PM EST
    you are serious?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#150)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:07:48 PM EST
    Fully.

    Parent
    thats (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:10:10 PM EST
    funny.  its sort of like being asked to prove there is air.


    Parent
    Not even close (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:14:07 PM EST
    I can point to the polls right now. What can you point to, and why is it better evidence?

    Parent
    He's (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:31:25 PM EST
    becoming a punchline of jokes. That's never a good thing.

    Parent
    We can't have this discussion (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:37:13 PM EST
    Without factoring in Senate races and key House races, as well as gubernatorial races.  Obama doesn't have coattails - he proved that in 2008 - he will again have to ride the coattails of the downticket races.

    HAH (none / 0) (#104)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:39:10 PM EST
    People first turn up to vote for President in a Presidential election. Not House, Senate, or Governor.

    I doubt if there is an example from all history in the entire country where there were more votes in a Presidential election for a contest other than President.

    Parent

    I repeat (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:41:43 PM EST
    Obama.Did.Not.Have.Coattails in 2008.

    Look how many state legislatures flipped to Republican.  Look how many voters only voted for him and his  hope and change magic, but did not vote down ticket. That won't be there in 2012.

    The Senate is up for grabs - you think people also won't come out for that.

    Parent

    Your bolded statement is wrong (none / 0) (#119)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:49:21 PM EST
    Or, at least, not right in all cases.

    The only state legislature that flipped Republican in 2008 that I can name off the top of my head is TN and maybe OK. It didn't happen in a single state Obama won. On the contrary, turnout for him helped flip the New York state Senate and flip three Congressional seats in Virginia. Not to mention multiple open seats across the country.

    Moreover, you are not responding to my point at all. Which is basically irrefutable: nowhere in history have more people turned out for a downticket race than a Presidential election. I defy you to find me a counterexample. Just one.

    Parent

    Don't care (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by waldenpond on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:41:59 PM EST
    Couldn't care less.  I don't vote for conservatives.  Wake me up if a liberal Dem runs.

    Citizens United (none / 0) (#191)
    by waldenpond on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:00:20 PM EST
    I completely forgot about CU.... I imagine I will be laughing at the Chamber funded documentaries on Obama.  Fox will be coordinating with the makers of the billionaire brigade to complete their coup.   It should be an appropriate demonstration of the true nature of the US.

    Parent
    You might as well have asked whether (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:46:52 PM EST
    we would prefer a sharp stick in the eye or a knitting needle to the ear, because whether the GOP can win in 2012 or not, the other option - re-electing someone on track - for me - of being The Worst "Democratic" President Ever, just makes me want to vomit.  Or throw things.

    And reading through the thread, I see that we are in for two years of handicapping a horse race where no matter who wins, we're all going to lose - well, except for those top 2-per centers, who will land softly on their massive piles of cash no matter who is elected in 2012.

    How can anyone even work up a frisson of excitement or interest in re-electing a president who has failed to deliver on just about every truly Democratic issue there is - who has, on issue after issue, with the able assistance of the Congressional Democrats, stripped out most of the progressive elements, built in Republican-friendly components, and then announced his triumphant victories and accomplishments like he was Moses come down from the mountain.

    He's turned on women, he's abandoned gays, he's strengthened Bush policies on torture and surveillance and detention, he's made a mockery of the meaning of democracy and justice, he's failed on economics, he's failed on jobs - he still thinks he has a messaging problem, and not a policy problem - he's failed on health care.  But, oh, what a good job he's done for banks and insurance companies.  I can't wait for the bonus announcements.

    How do you root for someone like this to win?  Because the other guy might be marginally worse?  "The Supreme Court?"  Because we can trust an Obama with a Republican Congress - which he might have - not to cater to them in a show of bipartisan faith?  "Roe v. Wade?"  Because we can trust Obama to stand up for women's reproductive rights?

    A year from now, if things are not better, if they are worse, if there is more betrayal and more abandonment of progressive policy and embrace of conservatism, what then?  In my opinion, the GOP might not be able to lose even if they run the devil herself.

    The saddest thing I've read here is "I will vote for Obama in 2012 no matter what;" wow, what an incentive that gives for quality representation.

    It all just makes me sick at heart for what the next decade holds.

    Geezoid BTD! (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by smott on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:48:18 PM EST
    Could ya throw a bit of red meat around?  How about a post on Hillary primarying O in 2012?

    It's too quiet around here.

    please no (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:50:35 PM EST
    I really have to work

    Parent
    The talks about a third party (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by MO Blue on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:04:37 PM EST
    One of the prime supporters (ain't they proud) of the proposed no label 3rd party is Joe Lieberman. Republican, Democratic, the 3rd Way, Tea Party and 3rd Party options are all basically the same thing.

    Doesn't matter (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by CST on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 05:32:47 PM EST
    the world is gonna end that December anyway.

    Given the choice of a real Republican (5.00 / 3) (#208)
    by joanneleon on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 08:15:26 PM EST
    or a faux Republican, they're going to vote for the real Republican.

    I think it's a no brainer.  Of course they can win.  Obama is not electable right now.  And given the course of action he's indicating, he's going to be less electable in 2012.

    It's amazing how the geniuses in the Democratic advisor/consultant class don't realize that the conditions in this country and this world are entirely different than they were in 1994-96.  They're  much closer to the 1940s than the 1990s.  The dumba$$e$ think it's a good idea to move to the right to get those votes in the mythical center, and that austerity is going to get them votes.  Mindblowingly stupid.

    But then again, it's all about the BIGs anyway, not the people.

    The funniest thing is that I bet that the Obama marketing geniuses think that they can pull another vague hope/change game again and that he's a good enough snake oil salesman that people will believe once again.  Actually it's not funny at all.  But what else do we have besides gallows humor?

    You all are arguing about nothing (5.00 / 3) (#210)
    by kmblue on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 08:47:47 PM EST
    "anyway you look at it, you lose"  
    thanks Paul Simon

    As silly as it is to think about (none / 0) (#8)
    by lilburro on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:04:41 PM EST
    it's all the GOP are thinking about, so why not.  It certainly highlights the urgency.

    My prediction (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:37:18 PM EST
    right now would be that the GOP gets a Carter '76 type win.

    With PA & MI faltering, that makes it really hard for Obama to win reelection.

    Romney could take MI from Obama and I'm sure the GOP is well aware of that hence their pushing of Romney.

    If Palin is the nominee, odds are in favor of Obama but even then unless he does something to turn things around that could go down the tubes.

    Don't see it (none / 0) (#23)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:47:43 PM EST
    Michigan will go for Obama because of the auto bailout which has been successful....

    That Romney once lived in Michigan won't matter.

    Pennsylvnia and Wisconsin could be more obtainable by the Republicans.  If the economy only improves slightly, then Obama should be fine.

    Republicans have forfeited Nevada and Colorado by their Latino-bashing.....  

    Parent

    You obviously (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:48:53 PM EST
    Haven't talked to voters in Michigan in a while.

    Parent
    I'll take history and actual polling (none / 0) (#40)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:55:35 PM EST
    over your biased anecdotes....

    Parent
    Sure (3.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:57:18 PM EST
    Living there for 30+ years gives me no insight.

    All-righty.

    Parent

    You have hated Obama from the beginning (2.00 / 1) (#72)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    and have consistently predicted his electoral doom for more than 2 years.

    You are hopelessly biased against him.  Your personal opinion is not worth much weight.

    Parent

    I don't hate anybody (none / 0) (#79)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:21:33 PM EST
    And you are a Pollyanna, so I'm not sure that your opinion carries any more weight. You would defend Obama if he were photographed with a dead boy in his bed, so, whatever.

    History doesn't mean anything, unless you look at just the last election.  Demographics have changed, we have 24 hour "media", blogs, etc. - none of which previous presidents in real trouble faced.

    Parent

    Has anyone looked at Obama's current (none / 0) (#42)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:56:41 PM EST
    job approval rating?

    Take a look at the actual data....

    Parent

    His (none / 0) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:01:26 PM EST
    job approval ratings are worthless. Going by those there's no way that he should have lost 60+ seats last November. Those approval ratings are more to the tune of losing around 45 seats.

    Parent
    Okay, then look at the head to head (none / 0) (#68)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:15:41 PM EST
    polling.

    PPP, which is a Democratic outfit, but hit the nail on the head in 2008, calling Indiana for Obama by one, and was described by WSJ as the second most accurate pollster last time around, has this to say about North Carolina:

    Still in the big picture these are good numbers for Obama. Some were quick to look at the 2010 results in North Carolina and say Obama would have no chance to win here again in 2012 but the reality is that a huge part of the Republican victories was Democrats staying at home and that's not likely to happen again the next time around. If Republicans can't get a better candidate than Palin, Romney, or Gingrich and the Obama wave voters from 2008 get reenergized he has at least a 50/50 chance of starting a Democratic winning streak at the Presidential level in North Carolina.

    And the current head-to-head in North Carolina:

    Huckabee is also the only one of the Republicans who Obama trails in a hypothetical reelection contest. The former Arkansas Governor edges him 48-44. Huckabee does the best job both of unifying Republican voters (87% support from them) and earning crossover support from Democratic voters (winning over 21% of them.)

    Beyond Huckabee though Obama does about the same or even better than he did against John McCain against the rest of the Republican contenders. He holds Mitt Romney to a 44-44 draw, has the slightest of edges over Newt Gingrich at 46-45, and leads Sarah Palin by a 48-43 spread.

    And the Virginia numbers by PPP:

    Obama leads Mitt Romney (48-43) and Mike Huckabee (49-44) each by 5 points in hypothetical contests, a margin similar to his victory over John McCain in the state. If the Republican nominee was either Newt Gingrich or Sarah Palin Obama's lead widens to 11 points, by spreads of 52-41 and 51-40 respectively

    And, look at the subpolls that Gallup has on Obama's handling of various issues--they are worse than his overall job approval rating.....America likes this President and has a reservoir of good will for him, unlike those here.....

    Obama's job approval is better than Reagan's and Clintons's at this point in their Presidencies.  

    Parent

    He's (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:29:40 PM EST
    not carrying NC. I can guarantee that. The GOP sat home in 2008. They won't do it in 2012. With the white working class anger at Obama it doubtful that he's going to carry VA either.

    Heck, he's more likely to carry GA with the minority population here than he is to carry VA.

    And this time he's going to have a record he has to defend and it's not easily defended.

    He's going to have to rerun the Bush 2004 campaign and make it all about how the other guy is worse and that seems to be the plan so far.

    Parent

    The data from a good source says (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:47:41 PM EST
    otherwise....

    And most economic models have unemployment improving slightly in the next few months...

    People's views here are colored by their dislike of Obama....

    To get rid of an incumbent President is very, very hard to do.....

    Parent

    You (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:52:32 PM EST
    are not being realistic. Obama won NC by 1% point in 2008 when he had the perfect storm. So with higher unemployment he's going to carry NC? Very unlikely.

    And we've all heard how "prosperity is just around the corner" too many times to believe it anymore. Remember the "summer of recovery" that never was?

    Parent

    please stop (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:56:20 PM EST
    asserting that "dislike" & "hate" of Obama is what is motivating people's valid expression of their considered opinions

    Parent
    How do those economic models work (5.00 / 3) (#176)
    by nycstray on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:35:06 PM EST
    when we drop over 3 million off in a couple months?

    Parent
    You do not know that. (none / 0) (#136)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:57:39 PM EST
    People's views are colored by their assessment of Obama's chances.  

    Parent
    I can't read minds, but I think (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by andgarden on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:59:53 PM EST
    it happens to be true for many people here.

    I've made it plain that I am deeply disappointed with Obama for a number of reasons. But I also believe that he is in reasonable shape for reelection.

    Parent

    So am I, but I don't want him to lose. (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:04:58 PM EST
    And, as you said (none / 0) (#71)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:17:22 PM EST
    It's 2 years out - which means while you think it will get better and be sunshine and roses for Obama, it also has time to get worse.

    Be careful what you wish for.

    Parent

    Always true, but I'd rather hope for the best (2.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:19:08 PM EST
    than the worst as you and the Republicans do.

    Parent
    Do you know what the (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:51:26 PM EST
    UE numbers are in MI? They are very high. Don't bet that Romney can't take it. Unless that turns around, he's not going to carry MI.

    Parent
    12.8% (none / 0) (#41)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:56:26 PM EST
    to answer your question

    Parent
    My money is still on Obama but it (none / 0) (#15)
    by tigercourse on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:41:04 PM EST
    won't be easy. The likely GOP candidates are somewhat weak and 3 of the last 4 Presidents have served 2 terms. Even modest economic improvement will give Obama a better hand.

    I would not Reid too much into Nevada, (none / 0) (#26)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:49:09 PM EST
    hell I could have beaten Angel.  That was more about who the GOP nominee was.  If the GOP does not nominate Palin, I think they win Nevada.

    But Reid was very, very unpopular in (none / 0) (#36)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:54:24 PM EST
    Nevada which has very, very high unemployment and foreclosures....

    The GOTV there cannot be beat....

     

    Parent

    Yes it can. The GOP ran the worst possible (none / 0) (#45)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 01:57:39 PM EST
    candidate.  Reid ran against the exact candidate he wanted to...and he barely beat her even with the vaunted Dem GOTV in Nevada.  Nevada is not a big fish anyway.  If Obama carries either Ohio or Florida, he wins.  Right now, he would not carry either one, but we are a long way off.  He won NC and Ind by less than 1% last time so I doubt he wins those.  If the GOP gets those 4 states, it will be a horserace.

    Parent
    I don't see Obama (none / 0) (#77)
    by Coral on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:20:14 PM EST
    carrying FL. I'm also thinking PA and MI will be very hard for him to carry. And OH? Forget about it.

    He is right now in the process of alienating the blue collar / union type voters whose enthusiasm is going to be necessary for a Dem to win in 2012.

    Why did Scott Brown win MA? Because of that very volatile and disaffected working class/low to middle middle class voters. When you can't fire up people with appeals to their pocket book, they are going to go for cultural appeals like pickup trucks, etc. I remember the union leaders saying that despite their endorsement of Coakley, the rank and file were voting for Brown.

    Obama is just the most recent in a long line of Democratic presidents who identify with a cerebral elite that has no touch for the actual Democratic base.

    Clinton had the touch -- he screwed us anyway, but he was able to talk a much better game.

    I don't see Obama winning 2012 unless the economy makes a fast U-turn soon.

    And I wouldn't count out Palin. She is quite similar to Brown, and Bush, in self-presentation. And there are deep roots in the American character that are struck by the 'tough-talking Cowboy' persona.

    Parent

    Good response, but I have a hard time seeing (none / 0) (#124)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:52:07 PM EST
    the GOP winning Michigan.  Obama saved the Big 3 and the auto industry.  Would McCain?  As anti-union the GOP is I just think when it is time to vote, they will line up behind Obama.  PN also always looks promising to the GOP and then poof, as election day nears, the electorate swings hard to the Dems.  I do think Ohio, Florida, Ind, and NC are very winnable for a halfway decent candidate, and that gets it pretty close.  With some other winnable states - Iowa, Wisconsin, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado - they could pull it off.  Amazing they could after 8 years of dubya.

    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 04:13:29 PM EST
    Strange that the GOP completely swept the governorship and both houses of the legislature.  And all those UAW members - a good many of them are Republican.  Ever hear of the "Reagan Democrats"? Started and centered in Macomb County, Michigan in metro Detroit - home to many UAW members. White collar Oakland County next door has wealthy voters - also a large Republican bastion.  Add to that the conservative UP and the religiosuly conservative western Michigan, and unemployment which I predict will still be around 12% (minus all the people about to be kicked off the rolls), and you get a perfect storm for the GOP to win.

    Oh, plus Romney's father was governor of Michigan and Romney can speak the language of autoworkers, since he grew up in and around the industry.

    It's entirely possible, and as I said at the beginning, it's about the economy.  Despite some rosy predictions from the ivory towers and some posters here - things aren't going to get a whole lot better before 2012.

    Parent

    It was NOT that close in Nevada (none / 0) (#85)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:26:15 PM EST
    Reid won by 5 points...

    If Obama wins Nevada and Colorado and then Kerry states, he wins--without Ohio or Florida....He is ahead in Virigina right now, which would be gravy....

    True, he must hold serve in Michigan and Pennsylvania....but history should be on his side....

    Obama is tied right now in North Carolina against Romney, behind Huckabee by 4 and ahead of Gingrich and Palin--right now at 9.6% unempolyment.

    The bias on this blog needs to be corrected by actual data....

    Parent

    We are two years out for Christ sakes (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:47:53 PM EST
    current polling is not meaningful.

    In 2008, Obama ran against a 72 year old man who was hated by his base, that he outspent 2-1, in an election year that was as favorable as any could be for a Dem with the most unpopular President in American history still in office hurting McCain, a bad economy, two unpopular wars, and the worst financial crisis since the great depression happening 4 weeks before election day.  And he wins NC and Ind by less than 1%?  He will probably not win those in 2012 regardless of what current polling states unless the GOP nominate a complete dud like they did in Nevada.

    I also never said Obama could not win the white house without Ohio and Florida, I just said that for the GOP to make a horse race out of it, they must win those two states.  If they do, along with NC and Ind, they get very close in which a state here or there gets them over the top.

    Parent

    Sure, we are two years away (none / 0) (#149)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:07:42 PM EST
    In two years time, by most accounts the economy should be better.....

    But if we are to prematurely speculate, polls are still the most objective source....

    History favors Obama too.....Only Jimmy Carter got ousted in the 20th Century iirc--and Hoover.  And Carter's Gallup job approval at election?  37%.   Obama is at 47% today--with 9.6% unemployment.....He is doing better than he should with that kind of economy.....Americans like the guy.....

    If the economy just starts to look better, Americans will give him the benefit of the doubt and his approval will be above 50% and he will win re-election....

    Parent

    Right now the polls are useless. (none / 0) (#162)
    by Buckeye on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:20:05 PM EST
    I think your other argument about the difficulties of beating a Presidential incumbent - especially with an improving economy - is much stronger.

    Parent
    first (none / 0) (#114)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:46:38 PM EST
    remove the rose-colored glasses from thine own eyes, & then thou wilst see clearly enough to correct the putative blind spot in thy fellow commenters' eyes . . .

    Parent
    I have cited data (none / 0) (#143)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:01:39 PM EST
    Head-to-head polls and the current Gallup job approval....

    Parent
    so it follows (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:14:12 PM EST
    that you are completely w/out bias whereas others' data-derived observations are driven by Obama Derangement Syndrome

    Parent
    I make arguments based on current data (none / 0) (#169)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:26:24 PM EST
    and history....

    Not many here are doing that.....

    Parent

    I've (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:34:12 PM EST
    been making the argument that Obama won't carry NC based on history yet you seem to ignore that based on some polls that have a high MOE and Obama running close to most candidates.

    Parent
    Well, history is that he won it last time (none / 0) (#180)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:43:35 PM EST
    I know it was just barely....

    But if he is running about the same in NC as his win in 2008, and he won nationally by 7 points, it would seem consistent with another Obama win nationally....

    Obama does not need to win in NC.....but the data there is consistent with Obama doing much better than many would think.

    There is also the PPP poll in Virginia....and the Gallup job approval....

    And the Q polls nationally are not that bad for Obama.  All at 9.6% unemployment.....Yet, most here say he is doomed, doomed.....I heard from many here the same thing in June 2008.  

    Parent

    The gallup (none / 0) (#182)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:49:14 PM EST
    approval is worthless. The midterms showed that. People might like him but not enough to show up at the polls apparently or there's a Bradley factor in there somewhere that needs to be adjusted.

    In June 2008 the polls were showing Obama tied with McCain IIRC. Obama didn't pull away until the financial disaster if you recall.

    Parent

    i hope you are right (none / 0) (#186)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:52:47 PM EST
    not because of any great love for Obama but because a GOP presidency would be such an unmitigated disaster

    but if you want to talk about June 2008 & Obama looking doomed to some here, wasn't that right after Obama had lost big in a string of blue-state primary elections in which the traditional Democratic base figured heavily?

    that did not augur well for party unity, so you could hardly blame people for worrying about Obama's chances in November

    the collapse of Lehman Bros elected Barack Obama, who was actually trailing McCain just before the meltdown

    Parent

    My head hurts (none / 0) (#84)
    by ruffian on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:25:51 PM EST
    The right GOP candidate could win. But I can't tell you who that would be.

    Agree, but they are presenting (none / 0) (#102)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:38:44 PM EST
    quite a rogues gallery of curious characters, misfits, grifters, quitters and crazies.

    And it's too soon after Shrub to insert a Jebster to ride to the rescue.

    Parent

    third party (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:39:52 PM EST
    is the wild card.  there WILL be one IMO

    Parent
    don't count on it (none / 0) (#120)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:50:28 PM EST
    it's too soon after Shrub to insert a Jebster to ride to the rescue

    indeed, the Jebster is a possibility that keeps me awake at night

    call me crazy but mark my words

    Parent

    I wouldn't waste too much (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:07:42 PM EST
    energy worrying about Jebbie going in 2012.  Possible, but very long-shot compromise solution at a divided convention, but those don't happen often in modern times.

    He's almost certainly calculating along the lines I suggest -- too soon, too much a reminder of Someone Named Bush=Bad Economy and Costly Unnecessary War(s).

    Plus he's smart enough to acknowledge the incumbent advantage, usually, and O's personable appealing qualities and pretty good campaign abilities, including at the debates.

    I think Jeb prefers to consider 2016, with a party having lost again in 2012 very very hungry to get back into the WH, and being sold on the notion that it takes a Bush to get it back.

    Parent

    I was wondering (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 02:51:56 PM EST
    about Babs swipe at Palin the other day.

    Parent
    Fear of Palin (none / 0) (#163)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:21:29 PM EST
    Babs and other Republicans think she could win--and she is doing very, very well in current polling.

    Parent
    Babs and other Republicans (none / 0) (#166)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 03:23:09 PM EST
    are right

    Parent
    I can't even tell you what I'm having for lunch (none / 0) (#205)
    by steviez314 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 05:02:47 PM EST
    tomorrow.

    2012?  Who knows?

    Unhelpful changes in Wisconsin election law (none / 0) (#207)
    by Ben Masel on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 08:03:25 PM EST
    The Republicans (who swept both Chambers and the Governor's office) are looking to do  away with at the polls registration, which has always been a big factor in our top or near top turnout of young voters. It's also expected that the Primaries for non-presidential offices will be moved ahead to accomodate Federal rules for military absentees, so we won't get those freebie registrations of new college students.

    obama "runs" a HELL of a lot better... (none / 0) (#209)
    by pluege2 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 at 08:17:50 PM EST
    than he governs.

    If unemployment remains above 8% he will lose (none / 0) (#211)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:28:44 AM EST
    too much pain for too long, all seemingly on his watch.

    Primary this guy ASAP.  Force him to do things that are contrary to his apparent beliefs, beliefs that will take down the Ds in 2012.

    The National Popular Vote bill (none / 0) (#212)
    by mvymvy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:06:21 PM EST
    By 2012, The National Popular Vote bill could guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

    Every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in presidential elections. Elections wouldn't be about winning states. Every vote, everywhere would be counted for and directly assist the candidate for whom it was cast. Candidates would need to care about voters across the nation, not just undecided voters in a handful of swing states.

    Now 2/3rds of the states and voters are ignored -- 19 of the 22 smallest and medium-small states, and big states like California, Georgia, New York, and Texas.  The current winner-take-all laws (i.e., awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in each state) used by 48 of the 50 states, and not mentioned, much less endorsed, in the Constitution, ensure that the candidates do not reach out to all of the states and their voters. Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or care about the voter concerns in the dozens of states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind.  Voter turnout in the "battleground" states has been 67%, while turnout in the "spectator" states was 61%. Policies important to the citizens of `flyover' states are not as highly prioritized as policies important to `battleground' states when it comes to governing.

    The bill would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes--that is, enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

    The bill uses the power given to each state by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution to change how they award their electoral votes for president.

    The bill has been endorsed or voted for by 1,922 state legislators (in 50 states) who have sponsored and/or cast recorded votes in favor of the bill.

    In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided). The recent Washington Post, Kaiser Family Foundation, and Harvard University poll shows 72% support for direct nationwide election of the President. Support for a national popular vote is strong in virtually every state, partisan, and demographic group surveyed in recent polls in closely divided battleground states: CO-- 68%, IA --75%, MI-- 73%, MO-- 70%, NH-- 69%, NV-- 72%, NM-- 76%, NC-- 74%, OH-- 70%, PA -- 78%, VA -- 74%, and WI -- 71%; in smaller states (3 to 5 electoral votes): AK - 70%, DC - 76%, DE --75%, ME -- 77%, NE -- 74%, NH --69%, NV -- 72%, NM -- 76%, RI -- 74%, and VT -- 75%; in Southern and border states: AR --80%, KY -- 80%, MS --77%, MO -- 70%, NC -- 74%, and VA -- 74%; and in other states polled: CA -- 70%, CT -- 74% , MA -- 73%, MN - 75%, NY -- 79%, WA -- 77%, and WV- 81%.

    The National Popular Vote bill has passed 31 state legislative chambers, in 21 small, medium-small, medium, and large states, including one house in AR (6), CT (7), DE (3), DC (3), ME (4), MI (17), NV (5), NM (5), NY (31), NC (15), and OR (7), and both houses in CA (55), CO (9), HI (4), IL (21), NJ (15), MD (10), MA(12), RI (4), VT (3), and WA (11). The bill has been enacted by DC, Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, and Washington. These seven states possess 76 electoral votes -- 28% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

    See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com