home

Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread

Busy day.

This is an Open Thread.

Good TV ratings for the Vancouver Olympics.

< The Politics Of Citizens United | The Key To Job Growth Is Increased Spending >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    1000 Rabbis Warn . . . (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 02:52:21 PM EST
    Open Homosexuality in the Military is a Disaster and May Cause Further Natural Disasters

    first of all, after "1000 Rabbis warn" who cares what it says after that.
    also, you mean like it ruined Israel's military back in 1993?

    via stinque.com

    The title of your post (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:32:04 PM EST
    Sounds like the beginning of a joke. I expect them to walk into a bar.

    Parent
    the post I took it from (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:33:10 PM EST
    started exactly that way.

    I first read it "1000 rabbits walk into a leather bar . . . "

    Parent

    1000[clergy] can become a bloviational metric (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Ellie on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:25:12 PM EST
    ... to quantify the hot air behind a talking point or position, esp. those designed to erode people's inviolable constitutional rights.

    It's certainly more "scientific" than that modern-day superstition of superstitions, poll points.

    It can be like horse[power] or [kilo]wattage, but for bullsh!t. Example:

    If a trope leaving Altoona on Monday advanced x[poll points] with the force of y[1000][lying sacks of sh!t] how long would it take before [random media drama queen]'s head exploded on Sunday Morning Blather?

    Eventually it will eliminate the fraud that if "both sides do it", they're doing it at equal force and in an equal number of forums.

    The formula needs work, but that's because I'm with you on my brain screeching to halt at the mental image of a 1K Rabbis.

    Parent

    Oy, veh! (none / 0) (#26)
    by Zorba on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:02:03 PM EST
    Maybe these rabbis need to talk to Israel.  Israeli law prohibits discrimination against gay and lesbian soldiers, and they are allowed to serve openly in the Israeli military.  

    Parent
    Anyone else feel weird... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:00:31 PM EST
    Doubt I'll be watching.... (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:35:31 PM EST
    What is CreditCards.com?

    CreditCards.com is the leading online credit card marketplace connecting consumers with multiple credit card issuers. CreditCards.com enables consumers to search for, compare and apply for credit cards and offers credit card advice, news, statistics and tools. In 2009, more than 12 million consumers used CreditCards.com to make smart choices about credit cards.

    What I would want this web company to have to disclose is beyond what they will. Beyond donations, I would be interested to know how many cc applications get made through their site for the weeks to follow.

    It seems a conflict of interest to me.

    Parent

    I 'm not sure this fits here but here goes... (none / 0) (#68)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 01:46:17 PM EST
    Update from yesterday's news, Desperate Times Call for Desperate Measures:
    A small plane has crashed into an office building in Austin, Texas, that houses local FBI, CIA, and IRS offices. The scene is 20 miles from the nearest airport, and witnesses say the plane "hit the building full-throttle."

    The pilot, Joseph Andrew Stack, left an online suicide note. The note is a rant against bankers, accountants, politicians, the IRS, and "monsters of organized religion." Stack, an engineer who worked in aviation, says he ran into business troubles after a Reagan-era IRS ruling that changed the way he could account for freelance income, and goes on to tally various business and financial failures, almost all of which he blames on government collusion with big business.

    Postscript: I just read the suicide note about 10 minutes ago via the above link at Gawker. I made a pdf, thinking this "populist rant" isn't going to be up here for long. Guess what, it's been vanished in the time it took me to write this comment.

    Parent

    Smoking Gun... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 01:58:04 PM EST
    and others still have it up Foxhole.  

    Parent
    Thanks for that kdog... (none / 0) (#73)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 02:18:36 PM EST
    I also just noticed BTD has an NPR link to the note/letter in a recent post on the subject.

    Parent
    The Obama White House? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Anne on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:11:07 PM EST
    Nah - seems perfectly normal to me.

    Unfortunately.

    Parent

    Hmmm..do they notify when (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:23:39 PM EST
    administration officials appear on the talking heads TV shows too? I don't see it any differently right off the top of my head.

    Parent
    Well, it's a "town hall" (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:47:08 PM EST
    which sounds public to me. Public events should be held in public places.

    And surely the TV shows are, at least notionally, news gathering entities? This organization is no such thing. What next? A "town hall" on nutrition on the Monsanto site? A "town hall" on investment opportunities at Goldman Sachs?

    Parent

    How about... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Anne on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:58:57 PM EST
    (snark)

    The Health Care Summit, brought to you by our proud supporters at Wellpoint, Aetna, BlueCross BlueShield, Cigna, United Health...and by all of the people they insure, who make it possible for campaign coffers to swell like Aunt Bertha's ankles after we denied her that medication she needed.

    Parent

    It's another thing to hold a "town hall" (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:51:47 PM EST
    on Aetna's web site, no?

    Parent
    OK, this part is over the line (none / 0) (#7)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:25:34 PM EST
    What is CreditCards.com?
    CreditCards.com is the leading online credit card marketplace connecting consumers with multiple credit card issuers. CreditCards.com enables consumers to search for, compare and apply for credit cards and offers credit card advice, news, statistics and tools. In 2009, more than 12 million consumers used CreditCards.com to make smart choices about credit cards.


    Parent
    sorry Jeralyn - delete the above if (none / 0) (#8)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:27:15 PM EST
    you don't want to advertise in any way shape or form...I wasn't thinking.

    Parent
    Advertise? I (none / 0) (#12)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:37:15 PM EST
    posted the same portion....as disclosure for what is going on.

    J is welcome to delete mine, as well.

    Parent

    I'm sure the credit card industry (none / 0) (#13)
    by Anne on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:43:17 PM EST
    is just as interested in reform as the health industry is, right?

    And look how well that's going...

    Parent

    Ha ha only serious (none / 0) (#49)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:53:54 PM EST
    Maybe they'll make failure to use plastic a federal crime, just like they're trying to make failure to buy junk insurance a federal crime.

    Of course, they'd do nothing so crazy as abolishing cash money. Oh, wait...

    Parent

    It's just a freak show (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:58:32 PM EST
    On one hand you have credible economists reading us all he riot act because nobody has a savings anymore.  If we go back to having a savings though there is no reason to use plastic in any way other than the AmEx way, and use it for the convenience of daily expense spending and then write one check at the end of the month.  Why would any of us have a hefty savings account while also deciding to pay someone 12% on crap we can pay cash for?

    Parent
    Last month, my daughter told me that (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Anne on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:17:52 PM EST
    her good friend's uncle had been in Haiti during the earthquake, and no one had heard from him.

    Sadly, his body was recently recovered from the wreckage of the Hotel Montana.

    I did not know him, but it's clear that when Walt Ratterman died, the world lost one of the good guys.

    RIP

    NYPD Stop & Frisk... (5.00 / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 03:25:11 PM EST
    stats for 2009 are out, or as I like to call them, the "unjust hassling of free people and infringement on inalienable rights to free travel" stats...the news is not good, another new record, over half a million stops in '09.

    The kickers...87% of those stopped are black or latino.  Only 6% of stops led to summonses and another 6% led to arrests...that leaves 88% we are left to assume were unjustified stops. Not a very good hit rate for the fools in blue...probable cause is just a meaningless term I guess.

    In a country where many children are homeless (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by esmense on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:37:38 PM EST
    and millions of families and children must to rely on charitable feeding programs, and the number of unemployed is at Great Depression levels in some parts of the country, am I the only one who thinks it odd that the First Lady has made childhood obesity her primary issue?

    The Obama's are such yuppies! For them, the bubble boom world of the 80s and 90s doesn't seem to have ever ended.

    They can't seem to wrap their mind, or values, around the very real suffering so many Americans are experiencing in the much more difficult new century.

    poverty is a factor (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:46:57 PM EST
    in much obesity.  people are forced to eat unhealthy fast food.

    I think it is a perfectly reasonable thing for her to champion.  all you have to do is take a walk in a mall to see (and walk around) the problem.

    Bill is joining her.

    Parent

    yup (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by CST on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:50:56 PM EST
    healthy food = expensive food.  If you're broke you go for the dollar menu not whole foods.

    Also poorer neighborhoods tend to have fewer amenities for those who like to be active outdoors.

    Parent

    True enough... (none / 0) (#70)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 01:58:06 PM EST
    What you said CST:
    Healthy food = expensive food. If you're broke you go for the dollar menu not whole foods.

    Also poorer neighborhoods tend to have fewer amenities for those who like to be active outdoors.

    Why doesn't the First Lady talk about that, which is the root of the problem. Of course, talking about that would put some onus on government to rectify socio-econmic disparity, and the Obamas avoid that like the damn plague. Better to fat shame and make it a matter of individual responsibility stemming from ignorance and/or laziness. "Just move", my a$$.

    Parent

    Why does the US, a wealthy nation, (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 02:15:10 PM EST
    have the highest % of obesity in the world?

    Parent
    Because the wealth is concentrated at the TOP! (none / 0) (#81)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:32:25 PM EST
    ...and that is basically the same story (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:46:01 PM EST
    in the other countries our obesity rates are so out of whack in comparison to.

    Certainly may be a part of it, but I don't think that's anywhere near the whole answer...

    Parent

    What 'other countries' have a concentration of (none / 0) (#86)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:54:42 PM EST
    extreme wealth at the top that is equivalent to our own?

    I'd wager that in some of those other 'less-developed' countries, poor people are dying of malnutrition, as opposed to our country where the poor are dying from obesity induced by cheap, carb-loaded, processed food.

    Parent

    Ah yes, the old (none / 0) (#88)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 04:03:52 PM EST
    impossible to reach, "must be equivalent" standard. Of course no country is equivalent to another. How perfectly dreary...

    Parent
    Dreay indeed... (none / 0) (#92)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 04:29:29 PM EST
    Now don't go away mad, just go away.

    Parent
    I don't see that at all (none / 0) (#74)
    by CST on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 02:32:34 PM EST
    In fact her agenda for this is:

    • Requiring students from pre-kindergarten to grade 12 to take physical education.
    • Requiring child care providers to offer at least 60 minutes of physical activity per day.
    • Requiring schools to develop comprehensive wellness plans that include policies to offer kids more nutritious lunches.

    I think that absolutely starts adressing the root of the problem.

    Frankly, the idea that obesity is not a real problem in this country or that it's not important is unbelievable.  It's a huge public health issue, and yes, a lot of that is a matter of individual responsibility as well as government responsibility - which I think is being addressed to a certain degree with the school initiatives.

    On a more personal level, my dad had to have quadruple bypass surgery this year and a heart valve replaced.  It was terrifying, and he's not that old, he's just very overweight and has already had 2 heart attacks.  So to me, this isn't about looking pretty or shaming people, it's about saving lives.

    Parent

    NOBODY is saying obesity isn't a major (none / 0) (#76)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:08:49 PM EST
    health issue. But why doesn't the Obama Administration, and the First Lady, acknowledge the inarguable link between poverty and obesity in this country.

    Via the NYTimes: More Americans on the Road to Obesity:

    Seven of the 10 states with the highest poverty levels are also among the 10 states with the highest obesity rates.

    A recent letter to the editor of the Toronto Star put it this way:

    First Lady Michelle Obama's campaign against childhood obesity, cites the key factors for this epidemic as busy parents with little time for cooking healthy meals, schools with too few physical activities programs, corporations that produce and advertise unhealthy foods, and children who are sedentary in front of the TV and video games. Childhood poverty - the most striking factor - was not on the list.


    Parent
    Have you also read the research (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:14:05 PM EST
    that suggests obesity is a cause of less income & wealth?

    Parent
    yes (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by CST on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:23:08 PM EST
    but that doesn't address income disparity in obese children.

    Parent
    No argument, (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:50:05 PM EST
    just pointing out that there may be more to the issue than some seem to think...

    Parent
    No, but I'll read the LINKS if you (none / 0) (#79)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:30:07 PM EST
    provide them.

    Parent
    Individuals who lose small amounts of weight experience little change in net worth, but those who lose large amounts of weight have a dramatically improved financial position
    Just one of many out there...

    Parent
    SUO, could you get it any more wrong? (none / 0) (#89)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 04:15:13 PM EST
    The article you've linked to is about how the wages of individual people increase, or decrease, when they lose or gain weight:
    Weight changes and dieting appear to be associated with wealth changes. Individuals who lose small amounts of weight experience little change in net worth, but those who lose large amounts of weight have a dramatically improved financial position, with Whites showing larger changes than Blacks.

    Your article is basically about fat-prejudice, specifically how heavy people are paid less than thinner people. Good gawd read, just read.

    Here's the thing: poor children are more obese, and when they grow up and enter the work force, as fat adults, their whole demographic is paid less which then gives rise to yet another generation of poor obese children who become another generation of obese adults - and so on, and so on. Isn't that fu@ked.

    Parent

    It's like talking to a child. (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 04:24:12 PM EST
    heavy people are paid less than thinner people.

    Uh yeah, iow:

    Have you also read the research (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 12:14:05 PM PST

    that suggests obesity is a cause of less income & wealth?



    Parent
    Than stop talking to me puhleeze! (none / 0) (#93)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 04:31:47 PM EST
    actually (none / 0) (#80)
    by CST on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:31:39 PM EST
    I thought the first comment on this subject was very dismissive of obesity as a major health issue.  Your concern is different.  It seemed like the original comment was more of a "who cares?  Only yuppies" dismissive nature.

    While you do have a legitimate point about the nature of obesity, I don't really understand your gripe.  If the goal is to combat childhood obesity - we should encourage that goal.  Increasing the healthiness of schools seems to be a good way to reach people of all economic backgrounds - particularly the poor - who often have limited alternative outlets.

    Parent

    My 'gripe' is that the Obama administration (none / 0) (#82)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:44:42 PM EST
    is shoveling trillions of dollars into the gaping maw of Wall Street without doing a damn thing to alleviate the abject poverty of obese and malnourished children who can't even afford to live on Main Street, let alone buy their food there.

    I wish they'd shut their yaps about fat and put their money where their mouth is.

    Parent

    so essentially (none / 0) (#87)
    by CST on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:56:46 PM EST
    your gripe is you don't like the Obama admin and so even when they propose something you might otherwise agree with - you are ticked off because they aren't adressing the problems you think are more important.

    Got it.

    Personally, I don't criticize someone for agreeing with me.  I find it perfectly easy to be ticked off about the lack of an effective economic plan, and still think that combating childhood obesity is a worthy goal.  I didn't harp on Bush for trying immigration reform just because he was a terrible president otherwise.  

    Parent

    Poverty requires primary attention! (none / 0) (#90)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 04:22:51 PM EST
    Because, among other grave social ills, poverty is a root cause of obesity.

    In other words, don't pay us $hit wages and then tell us to exercise to lose the weight we gain from eating the only cheap food we can afford.

    Put the cart before the horse - it's easier that way. Oh, don't tell me to haul the cart either ;-)

    Parent

    also (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by CST on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:52:18 PM EST
    considering the health care debate we are having it's entirely appropriate.  This is a ticking time bomb of medical expense.

    Parent
    Or you could say she is (5.00 / 0) (#25)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:54:08 PM EST
    joining Bill. He's been at it a bit longer than her ;)

    The Bloomberg Admin has also been involved in the issue. Fresh whole foods more available, wiping out 'food deserts', making food stamps worth more at the farmers markets etc. And many food charities are across the country are working on getting more 'real' food in their programs (and some are holding cooking and nutrition sessions for their guests). All of our leftover distribution from our CSA goes to a food charity for the 22 weeks we are receiving the harvest. They get a decent haul from us.

    There's a lot to be said for trying to keep people healthy.

    Parent

    true (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:02:23 PM EST
    Bill has been doing it since his days as governor of AR

    Parent
    True. So why not make her cause childhood (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by esmense on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:11:34 PM EST
    nutrition. Put the focus on making sure all children are able to get good, healthy food -- and make access to healthy food the problem, not the children and their weight.

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:14:31 PM EST
    if you are asking my personal opinion I think weight needs to be talked about.  kids need to know that its not ok to be fat.  which many of them will not know since they have two fat parents.

    the tiptoeing around the subject of fat always rubbed my rhubarb.

    of course this is just MO.

    Parent

    Well if we're not going to "tip-toe" (none / 0) (#71)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 02:05:31 PM EST
    around the subject of weight, we could start by asking whether the First Lady has an ideal BMI underneath those billowing, full-skirted Donna Reed dresses. Or is that off limits? I know, I know, she has reaalllly toned arms, but why stop there? Just askin'.

    Parent
    full disclosure (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:16:03 PM EST
    I have an extremely obese sister.  and I give her sh!t about it all the time.  I am probably the only person she know who has refused to give up the use of the word "fat".

    you see, I care about her and I dont want her to die.  

    Parent

    Why is she over-weight? Does she eat poorly (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by esmense on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 06:04:30 PM EST
    or too much?

    I've been skinny all my life and so is everyone in my family. My son, on the other hand, has fought his weight ever since he was about 7 years old. I fed him a diet like the one I grew up on -- lots of fresh fruit and vegetables, no desserts other than fruit, no baked goods except on holidays, no sweet cereals, candy, snacks or soft drinks. He was, in fact, a very picky eater who rarely finished his food -- and always ate much less than any of his friends. And yet, he was heavier than most. He was a large baby (9 lbs. 10 ounces when he was born) and extremely active. At 9 months he was rearranging the furniture in the living room. At a year he weighed 30 lbs. When I expressed concern about his weight at one year, the pediatrician pointed out that it was all muscle, which was true.

    The simple fact is he has a very difficult metabolism -- to stay thin he has to be much, much, much more active than most people and it has to be VERY intense physical activity. He had no trouble staying slim as a very active toddler -- but once he started school and spent most hours forced to be still and mostly sitting, he started to gain weight. In some earlier human period when food was scarce and life was physically very hard his metabolism would be a blessing. In the modern world, it is a curse.

    My experience with my son has taught me that the usual ideas about why people weigh what they do are often just wrong.  

    Parent

    How is his weight now? (none / 0) (#41)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 06:32:23 PM EST
    it's true that metabolism plays in for some (and other factors), but poor diet is a factor in many low income communities and the diet you feed would be very helpful.

    Parent
    He's stocky and broad shouldered. He has to (none / 0) (#55)
    by esmense on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:20:18 PM EST
    constantly work to keep his weight down. During times when work or school interfer with opportunities to get out and hike and indulge in other strenous activity regularly, he gains weight. He has set up a gym in his apartment and he cooks most of his own meals -- thai and other asian food especially, with small amounts of lean meat and lots of vegetables. He doesn't drink much and he pretty much avoids fast food. He's not a fan of sweets -- he doesn't even eat fruit or fruit juice on a regular basis and has never liked chocolate, candy or cake (He never wants a birthday cake). He's still a picky eater and he still has to be really active to keep his weight in check. I don't think he's ever asked for seconds in his life. Lattes are his one big weakness (this is Seattle). He never has and never will look lean and thin, and he never has been able to indulge in second helpings, birthday cake, the occasional candy bar, over-sized steak or cheesy platter of Mexican food -- the way his thinner family members routinely do, but he's healthy.

    Parent
    Joshua is very underweight (none / 0) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:48:48 PM EST
    and is so picky....he eats mostly garbage in my opinion.  Because of the structure of his metabolism though I'm told he will always have a problem keeping weight on.  And the Ortho surgeon we visited in Colorado told him that he needs to try to gain weight or he will develop osteoporosis very quickly when he begins to age.  There are certainly many factors in play where weight is concerned but Josh is also not the norm.  His father is, and when you put junk in him he gets junk in his trunk :)

    Parent
    I'm sure Bill has a deeper understanding (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:15:12 PM EST
    of the many sides to childhood obesity. He has spoken out on it many times over the past decades. He recognizes the impact low wages, depression, latch key kids whose mothers HAVE to work, etc. has on the problem and he works hard for all those issues.


    Parent
    Oh please (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:52:10 PM EST
    the average real wages of lower income workers went up how much while he was President..and how many more latch key kids were created by that welfare reform travesty?

    Parent
    Let them eat NAFTA (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 06:08:36 PM EST
    flavored cake. And Chinese lead paint chips.

    Parent
    Or let them catch Hepatitis... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 06:16:10 PM EST
    in the cages he cared to enough to keep fillin' over the brim.  It's so good to be looked after so...

    Parent
    Well Bill thinks that approach (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 06:31:06 PM EST
    works. He said his brother Roger would still be on drugs today if they'd been legalized.

    And Roger said Bill would be in prison if they passed a law against harassing donut shop waitresses.

    Parent

    You have a very good memory (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:36:56 PM EST
    My daughter was a latchkey kid, and I remember the state of Colorado lowering the age that children could be to be alone because too many couldn't afford childcare.  Not a proud moment.

    Parent
    Agreed: fat shd be discussed rationally, honestly (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Ellie on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:48:55 PM EST
    ... and compassionately -- not just on (superficial) visuals &or the stealth landmine of failure that's built-in to miracle, fast results programs to "cure" only obesity.

    What's now termed obesity in our cultural model -- botoxed, liposucked celebs who gain OMFG 20-30 lbs -- promotes an anguish-ridden binge and purge lifestyle as "normal". (Look, the poor thing became a martyr for looking beautiful for the camera ... for US!!!!)

    I lament the double-thumbs up for societally piling on people for assumed bad behavior before factoring in other contributing elements:

    • individual body and personality types, predispositions
    • personal responsibilities (work, family, home)
    • lifestyle and simple preferences
    • what anyone does to make him or herself feel good after daily responsibilities can be tweaked to be more healthy.
    • health and well being isn't as simple as a size, or a number, or a shape.

    I hope everyone will have universal access to the best medically based, sound advice on feeling well and feeling good. For most people in SuperSize Me Land, thinner actually is better, but not driven to depression because s/he's not a Size Zero. (I mean, WTF???)

    I hate those standing ovations because someone reached a goal of being a Fashion Size (Whatever) over, say, wanting to enjoy a day more and/or do more of what they love, even "bad" stuff, in a healthier way.

    Parent

    It works both ways . . . (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 08:37:12 PM EST
    There's a lot of assumption and negativity towards the "Size Zero Fashion Sized" folks also. You "touched" on it nicely as do others daily, especially when discussing obesity . . . . nice back slap to the other end of the spectrum.

    Parent
    I wouldn't condemn anyone's ACTUAL anguish ... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Ellie on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 08:56:34 PM EST
    ... but I had it with the faux, fishing for compliments dramatic crapola I heard way too often in LaLaLand:

    Star wades into social event, estabishes self as the thinnest one there, loudly proclaims: I. Am. Such. A. WHALE! (to cries of No! Look at you! You're the fairest in the land!)

    Body dysmorphia is a real and tragic condition. Malnutrition isn't a fat/thin thing, nor is pain. I don't abide the "Mean Girl" model of getting to be cruel to others based on thinness.

    Talk to me after a year of lunches in CA where you're the only one not taking "breaks" between courses and, at the end of the meal the "healthiest" (AKA thinnest one) pontificate on his/her strenuous workouts.

    (I've seen workouts, suh, and preening next to exercise equipment between sneaking smokes, suh, is no workout.)

    Parent

    I was born and raised in Ca. (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:18:09 PM EST
    And if you think that the way you speak of the thin set there is limited to them, you are dead wrong. It reaches out to the rest of the thin population. And how/why we are thin. You just feed into the assumption that we are starving/unhealthy etc, especially if we are a woman. Sure, SoCal may have a higher number of the superficial set, but your attitude is not specific to the women there for others across the country. Us thin women get thrown under the same bus you just threw them under. And for the many that do live healthy lifestyles, they aren't sacrificing as much as you like to assume. Enjoying a day to it's fullest isn't that much of a mind bender, TYVM.

    Parent
    Oh btw, plse don't construe ... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ellie on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:10:01 PM EST
    ... my frustrated comment as being negative towards you in any way. I've always loved your fresh & local, hands-on approach towards food. (So sorry if that's how it came off.) :-P

    Any b!tchiness in my comment was about how repeatedly shocked I am at Caulifornia's (Left Coast's) tragic culture of not appreciating their bounty of beautiful, fresh, healthy food while simultaneously hating on those without access to the same wealth.

    When you do pack and move, you and your taste buds (and dogs') will love it.

    Parent

    I just get frustrated with it (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:36:50 PM EST
    There's a def backlash against the thinner set. I know it too well as I live with it. :-/

    Lining up all my farmers for Ca. Have 2 CSAs to try, tracking down ranchers for proteins and will have my own garden for storage and canning produce and a farmers market a couple blocks away. Whew! And my farmers market has better prices than others in the region. Mom says she'll come up and shop with me :)

    There is a certain effed up mentality in some areas of Ca with regards to food and image, but it's not limited to Ca. I high-tailed it out of SoCal for a reason and avoid other pockets of the same mentality. Still, it's a small percentage that tends to effect a larger population.

    Parent

    My approach to health is to establish a baseline (2.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Ellie on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:56:50 PM EST
    ... as the point at which everyone feels well and good, finding a balance between what they eat and how they lie, rather than an arbitrary thin/fat, big/small "number", or what the going beauty scle of the day is.

    I've always worked out regularly because my family was sports/activities oriented and I got to try out a lot of different ones before finding my loves.

    Everyone has a range, too, and while the thinner amongst us also might get slammed for social assumptions, I promise you, it's nothing near what the fatter ones must endure. (My range is a fairly small window of Thinner Me to a more cushiony Fatter Me while always being able to fit into my clothes. I'm also able to get down to my "fighting weight" fairly quickly, within 3-6 wks.)

    Ideally, everyone should be able to find their best way to be, which is what universal health care should be about (and which should be MORE possible in the US out of anyplace in the world, yet traagically is not.)

    I achieved Instructor Class at my dojo(s) and have been working on a sideline "open source" program based on Find Your Menu / Find Your Sport that can flex all incomes and circumstances.

    Parent

    What a load of crap. (2.00 / 1) (#62)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 09:12:08 AM EST
    I promise you, it's nothing near what the fatter ones must endure.

    You clearly don't have any idea what I must endure on a daily basis and it is offensive for you to assume that it is any less than what "fatter ones" deal with.  

    Parent

    No I don't have any idea what YOU individually .. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ellie on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:18:04 AM EST
    ... must endure, because I don't conduct surveillance on YOUR individual life (owing to having neither the time nor the interest.)

    Clearly, you didn't bother reading (or deliberately pretend not to comprehend for the purpose of indulging your personal sense of outrage) that the basis of good health and proper care begin with looking at:

    - individual body and personality types, predispositions
    • personal responsibilities (work, family, home)
    • lifestyle and simple preferences
    • what anyone does to make him or herself feel good after daily responsibilities can be tweaked to be more healthy. [and that]
    • health and well being isn't as simple as a size, or a number, or a shape.

    I hope everyone will have universal access to the best medically based, sound advice on feeling well and feeling good.

    ... as I initially posted. You have to wander pretty far outside the realm of common sense or reasonable understanding of plain English to derive offense from that.

    Besides which, it's hardly a "load of crap" that the growing size of the population -- in weight and in number -- experience more neutrally demonstrable discrimination and hostility, not just culturally but in accessing equal opportunities and simple respect.

    I'd recommend taking all that offense you're toting around and starting a support group.

    Parent

    Since it appears... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 02:35:55 PM EST
    ...to have gone right over your head, what's offensive is that you presume to know and/or judge the trials, tribulations and prejudice that another group of people experience.  

    I hope that is plain enough for you.  

    Parent

    GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!@ (none / 0) (#58)
    by observed on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:48:20 PM EST
    I teach college, and I've seen a lot of FAT kids in recent years. I had one student who was very smart, and good looking..well, except that he was over 400 lb.! His life was over at 19, because his parents didn't do their job.
    This is NOT about some kind of social imaging; it's a very serious health issue.
    There are FAT kids today who are going to be dead before I retire, because of obesity related health problems.
    Also, in the big FAT middle of the country, if you are 6' and 230-250, you are just an average size guy. It's ridiculous.
    When someone is under 18 and morbidly obese, the parents have failed, period.
    Yes, I understand the relationship between poverty and obesity.

    Parent
    Super-sizing was unheard of when I was growing up (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ellie on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 10:59:09 PM EST
    And I wasn't minimizing the children's health emergency by calling for a rational, honest and compassionate approach that's medically based.

    Simply wailing on fat kids or their "failing" parents in Indignation Nation isn't going to accomplish it this.

    Corporations and schools have been fattening their budgets while using children and young people as human dumpsters. It's not just up to parents but the whole "village" to change that.

    In case I've misinterpreted the direction of your frustration (or didnt't make clear in my own), no one's excusing bad habits. It's no more compassionate to enable mindless eating than it is to use condemnation first and alone to assign blame, and remember that super-sized kids have been trained to eat past pain.

    I take your concern for your student as being based on health rather than the visual blight of size. In that case, I'd recommend taking this particular student under your wing as a research assistant for whatever you're teaching, and (for example) having the kid walk to and from the library to retrieve materials for you.

    Our collective consumerist mindset, in the land of everything being available 24/7, always, is to regard the process as complete once we get the thing that we immediately want.

    That achievement-point should be better viewed as merely the halfway point or even lower, with individual "digestion" (or blowback) being the next phase, and, ecologically, the impact on the environment/community as a whole as the next.

    This stuff doesn't tack on a dime.

    Parent

    the whole height to weight (none / 0) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:04:18 AM EST
    this is very flexible.  I am 6' and weigh about 220-225.  but I am not fat.  I could lose 10 or 15 lbs but I am not fat.  I have a 42 inch waist.  I am just a pretty big person.  and I worked out a lot several years ago so I still have some weight in the "right" places.  
    afaiac weight is no longer about aesthetics its about survival.  
    as far as my sister and "why she is fat", if you ask her you will get one of several answers.  glands, medication, hormones etc.  but its bull.   I have seen my sister eat.
    there are certainly a tiny percentage of people who are obese because of factors other than what and how they eat.  but IMO that percentage is extremely tiny.


    Parent
    The flexibility -- and range -- approach to weight (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ellie on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 11:06:54 AM EST
    ... isn't being promoted as a natural process that can be totally unrelated simply to eating.

    I was commenting about this with HC/I reform in mind, and which failure has drawn additional hostility towards the slightly to morbidly obese because they're (a) visible and (b) they eat in public and (c) OMFG what if health care money gets "wasted" on them.

    Bad habits that the non-fat might be doing and not done as publicly as eating -- which is still legal, last I looked -- and tied to their particular health problems don't immediately draw the ire of passers-by.

    Height/weight doesn't tell the full story, nor does BMI. The point is, everyone deserves good health and good health care based on his or her individual makeup. This culling of people (on "moral" grounds) away from potentially accessing it is BS.

    Parent

    But your size is an outlier, even if (none / 0) (#94)
    by observed on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 05:14:00 PM EST
    you are healthy.

    Parent
    I just read that General (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:33:17 PM EST
    McChrystal has closed all the fast food joints that followed the troops to Afghanistan and set up shop inside the wire.  It's pretty funny in a way.  50 fast food joints at least are being closed that include Burger King, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, and Popeyes.  He is also closing the Harley Dealership at Bagram.  He said this is a war zone, not an amusement park :)  The gyms are staying open and internet cafes though.

    Parent
    The poor dont vote (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:44:42 PM EST
    "the middle class" votes.

    That's why hyper-ambitious, yuppie social climbers a,b and c running for President never mention them; the closest they come is "hardworking Americans" ie, blue collar workers in swing-states during primary season.

    The established meme is that talking about the poor is "class warfare" -- as if class warfare weren't already occurring and been made respectable by the relative silence about things like NAFTA and the WTO fifteen years ago.

    Parent

    Don't agree. Good for her, and (none / 0) (#57)
    by observed on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:43:56 PM EST
    good for her for saying "chubby" instead of some PC term.
    Next, she should get that British chef, Jamie whatsisname, a national gig in the US.

    Parent
    Amy Bishop, the Alabama professor (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by vml68 on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:22:12 PM EST
    seems to have a history of serious anger management issues.

    And guns (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:40:07 PM EST
    In talking about dumping DADT (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 07:26:24 PM EST
    It brings to mind for me probably the worst nightmare I could imagine.  Being gay and your mate comes home from the war zone in a box with a flag on it.  What has happened to these survivors?  You currently aren't allowed to technically be gay in the military so when your partner comes back in a box you aren't family.  Did your mate want to be buried at Arlington or did he or she want to be cremated and scattered on a ski slope or any hundreds of other possibilities?  Do you just sit there quietly and do as a you are told...play the part of a best friend?  Somebody out there grieves double in silence so as to never tarnish their loved one.

    this is pretty cool (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:10:11 PM EST
    Uncoiling the spiral: Maths and hallucinations


    Think drug-induced hallucinations, and the whirly, spirally, tunnel-vision-like patterns of psychedelic imagery immediately spring to mind. But it's not just hallucinogenic drugs like LSD, cannabis or mescaline that conjure up these geometric structures. People have reported seeing them in near-death experiences, as a result of disorders like epilepsy and schizophrenia, following sensory deprivation, or even just after applying pressure to the eyeballs. So common are these geometric hallucinations, that in the last century scientists began asking themselves if they couldn't tell us something fundamental about how our brains are wired up. And it seems that they can.


    The brain is heavy... (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 05:02:45 PM EST
    wild stuff man.

    Parent
    Makes me think (none / 0) (#95)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 06:15:45 PM EST
    of those "mentaculus" diagrams Larry Gopnick's brother was drawing out in A Serious Man.

    Who needs drugs when there's the Coen brothers?

    Parent

    Curling (none / 0) (#17)
    by waldenpond on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:18:59 PM EST
    Men's curling on CNBC.  Mens USA v SUI.  SUI up 2-0.

    USA up (none / 0) (#38)
    by waldenpond on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 06:12:42 PM EST
    Was SUI up 4-0.... now it's USA 5-4

    Parent
    David Paterson nominates activist judge (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 04:32:46 PM EST
    who gets results:

    [A] year in, the parameters of the Lippman court are coming into focus: he has helped turn the Court of Appeals into a scrappier, more divided and more liberal panel, its rulings and court statistics show. To get the rulings he wants, the decisions show, the new chief judge has built alliances case by case with each of the four judges who were nominated by the last Republican governor, George E. Pataki, cracking the conservative majority.

    "I am a result-oriented person," Judge Lippman said, "and the result I am looking for is not necessarily unanimity."



    I know I'm not the only one who (none / 0) (#59)
    by observed on Wed Feb 17, 2010 at 09:51:11 PM EST
    thinks Obama was a stealth candidate, groomed by Republicans and economic right wingers.
    Are there any articles on this question? Any evidence at all.. well, besides the obvious! hah

    Im sure we already know this (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 01:04:18 PM EST
    but a crazee wingnut teabagger crashed a plane into a irs office in texas.

    heres the "note"

    Just read the manifesto... (none / 0) (#67)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 01:31:54 PM EST
    find myself agreeing with the misguided fellow's sentiments quite a bit actually...especially the last line about what passes for free market capitalism in this country.

    The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

    Obviously the man lost it...but I don't know if I'd call him a wingnut teabagger...part of the screed sounds like it coulda been written by Eugene V. Debs.  

    Seems our systems played a role in driving him mad...not that there is any excuse for what he did...there is none.

    Though if our systems don't drive you at least a little bit mad, you're probably the craziest of them all.

    Parent