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Defending The Health Bills: Hey, They Might Work

I will probably be a supporter of passing the likely health bills (The Senate bill + a reconciliation fix) deal that will likely emerge from the ongoing House-Senate-White House negotiations. But not because of defenses like this one from Nick Kristof:

The debate about health care in recent months has focused on the shortcomings of the reform proposals. Critics are right to be disappointed [. . .] Critics doubt that the Senate and House bills would succeed in containing health care costs very much, and they may be right. It’s hard to know. But the existing system is a runaway roller coaster. Isn’t it prudent to try brake pedals even if we’re not sure how well they’ll work?

(Emphasis supplied.) Oy. I can do a better job of arguing for the current Senate bill than this. Here's a layup for Kristof - it will cover 31 million uninsured Americans, 15 million through an expansion of Medicaid. 'Maybe it will work' is a ridiculous argument. Why might it work? What does "work" mean?

Speaking for me only

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    I think Harkin's "starter home" defense (5.00 / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 08:03:54 AM EST
    is best.

    As long as there is no camel's nose (none / 0) (#3)
    by observed on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 08:06:22 AM EST
    in the starter home.

    Parent
    And of course, there isn't (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 08:08:55 AM EST
    If at the end of the day we don't get national regulation, this bill really is nothing more than a mandate, some subsidies, and a Medicaid expansion. The regulatory structure as envisioned would be very difficult to implement at the Federal level, but it's probably a nonstarter in 50 states.

    Parent
    I would think after the implosion... (none / 0) (#13)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:17:34 AM EST
    ... of the housing market, after the manipulations by banksters, that "starter home" would be the last metaphor that a politician who's in touch with his constituents would use. Oh, wait...

    Parent
    "Critics doubt..the bills would (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by KeysDan on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 08:45:21 AM EST
    contain health care costs very much".  Indeed, and this has been among my concerns since the very beginning, especially with regard to "Cadillac" plans and "savings without cuts in benefits" from Medicare that would not only stabilize the program and provide for new surgical and medical treatments, but also, finance about half of the new legislation.  The foundational idea and an organizing principle of the legislation that more care is not better care or high quality care can be delivered at very low costs, or even, less care (less lab tests etc) is better care was based, in large measure, on the Dartmouth Atlas. (an outdated Rand study also played its part).   The Dartmouth Atlas was must reading at the WH and lavish  praise of its ideas was made by President Obama. The study always seemed questionable,  for as noted here previously, the amount of care given and  the outcomes from their Medicare study were curious in that they  did not include those who lived, just those who died.  Well, the New England J of Medicine reports (cf. NYT for synopsis) an analysis by Sloan Kettering epidemiologist, Dr. Peter Bach, that much of the Dartmouth Atlas is flawed.  The WH declined to comment on the findings.

    Can you give me a link? (none / 0) (#8)
    by observed on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 08:47:58 AM EST
    I found the Darthmouth Atlas a couple days while I was looking for health care info---I didn't realize it as a linchpin of the WH argument.

    Parent
    New England J. of Medicine, (none / 0) (#10)
    by KeysDan on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 09:16:36 AM EST
    Peter B. Bach.  I do not have the link, but google evaluation of Dartouth Atlas,  Feb 17, 2010.   It also has comments, including Dr. Elliot Fisher, director of the Center for Health Policy Research at Dartmouth.  Fisher agrees that current Atlas measures should not be used to set payment rates, and his colleagues should not be held accountable for misinterpretation of their data.  

    Parent
    Thanks for the heads-up (none / 0) (#20)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:36:26 AM EST
    We'll get on this...

    Parent
    For critiques of Dartmouth Atlas (none / 0) (#17)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:31:51 AM EST
    thanks! (none / 0) (#19)
    by observed on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:35:22 AM EST
    I keep reading that the legislation will (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 09:43:17 AM EST
    result in the coverage of 31 million uninsured Americans, but what I never hear anyone mention is

    (1) that the coverage will not be a gift;

    (2) that even with subsidies, many still will not be able to afford that coverage;

    (3) how comprehensive the coverage will be, and whether people will be essentially forced to limit themselves to catastrophic coverage because it will be all they can afford;

    (4) how having coverage necessarily equates to more affordable care;

    (5) how the government will be able to contain the continuing rise in premiums; and

    (6) what happens when the government decides it can no longer maintain subsidies as the costs continue to rise - or a Republican administration and Republican Congress decide to end them altogether for some equally lame scheme - and people are once again unable to afford coverage and certainly not actual care.

    I wish I could say that this is the last time I will say the following, but I know it will not be: insurance coverage does not equal health care; to talk about it as if it does makes about as much sense as arguing that if you buy auto insurance, you will get a car.  Maybe the magic pony people could make that happen.

    Thirteen months and counting, and there is nothing to show for it; that is shameful in and of itself, and does a huge disservice to all the people who just want to be able to get the care they need without having to be already destitute, or risking their physical health because they are in fear for their financial health and future.  

    The solution has been staring us in the face for a long time, but as long as our elected representatives lack leadership and courage, we are destined to fail, and in a pretty big and economically devastating way.  


    Thank You (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by wrensis on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:21:44 AM EST
    When an inordinate amount of time and effort is required by Physicans and Health Care Providers to justify having a claim paid, real patient care suffers.  Many physicians get paid so little from Medicare they are considering refusing to take Medicare patients, much in the same way they refused to take Medicaid some time back.  Now these patientw will be forced to sit in an ER or Clinic where the payment never covers the treatment.  Bad choices are made on so many levels.  Yes, Medicare coverage must be curtailed because the system cannot and IMHO should not have to cover hip/knee replacements for 85 year old patients. Organ replacements for elderly non compliant patients who simply are tired of dialysis but will not change their behavior is a terrible waste of resources. The abuse of both systems by patients for years and years has led to "runaway" costs.  We do not need health care reform as it is being presented. The Medicare system would work effectively on a sliding cost basis for every American.  It would simply require regulation and we all know how well that has worked for banks and wall street.  
    We are losing because we are trying to reinvent the wheel and doing that for political purposes.

    Parent
    I'm pretty sure I didn't say what (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 11:05:29 AM EST
    you think I said...

    Why should an 85 year old who is still active and living independently not get a hip or knee replacement?  Would it be less expensive to have that person go from cane to wheelchair to bed, from independent living to assisted living to nursing home care?

    My mother had her hip replacement five years ago at age 75; she had been in so much pain that she had difficulty walking and her quality of life was declining.  She will be 80 this summer, has moved into a retirement community where she is active and engaged and - still - living independently.

    It is true that having to deal with the hundreds of private insurance companies has made it difficult for providers to spend more time with patients, and equally true the Medicare reimbursement rates need to be higher, but I emphatically disagree with you that it is patients' abuse of the public and private systems that has brought us to this point.  

    I read less about patient abuse of Medicare than I do about provider abuse - of providers billing Medicare for patients who do not exist, or for office visits, procedures and tests that never occurred.

    I read less about patient abuse of the private system than I do about providers performing procedures and tests on individuals who do not need them, because the providers are under extreme financial pressure to cover the cost of the high-tech equipment and facilities that are used and built in order to compete with other providers.  And the more patients who can come down the assembly line, the more money collected and the easier it is to justify specialty centers, equipment and staff.  

    The patient who is told he or she has a 90% blockage and needs a stent is going to argue that with whom?  Well, now, where I live, where we have a cardiac center whose chief was implanting stents in people who were told they had "major" blockages, but later found out those blockages were as little as 10%, everyone whose doc - at that or any other center/hospital in the area - says, "you need a stent," is either going to want a second opinion, or be required to get one.  More cost that did not originate with the patient.

    There is a lot of talk about reducing Medicare coverage and benefits, or rationing care in the last years of life.  As soon as someone can tell me how to know when someone has reached the point where they will only live another two years, we might be able to talk about what makes sense and what doesn't - but that's not possible.  

    An active, mentally competent - and old - person can have a critical medical crisis, and with treatment, come out the other side and live a productive and high-quality life for years longer.  Are you suggesting that we don't give someone that chance via Medicare, but only if he or she has the means to pay for that care?  Guess that would be one way to cull out the sick and the poor, but that's not a plan that speaks too well for much of anything.

    Medicare coverage does not need to be curtailed as much as it needs to be extended to a younger, healthier population that would spread the risk and reduce the costs.  There is no way to completely eliminate abuse of the system, by anyone at any level of that system, but the answer is not to make it harder still for patients to get care.


    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by NealB on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 12:13:26 PM EST
    "Medicare coverage does not need to be curtailed as much as it needs to be extended to a younger, healthier population that would spread the risk and reduce the costs."

    The ultimate benefit of universal coverage and a health care system that actually improves health care throughout our lives will result in reduced need for extreme measures (and expenses) near the end of life.

    Parent

    I also believe (none / 0) (#28)
    by cawaltz on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 12:20:48 PM EST
    that alot of the problems could be solved if the rates were reasonable to begin with. I hear stories of places inflating their rates because they know the insurance companies are going to be offering them pennies on the dollar for what they are asking.

    If this is a state by state deal though I do think that we are missing an opportunity at cutting costs by streamling forms and coding. I hear billing is a nightmare and the insurance companies are constantly changing claim codes to increase the chances of pushing things onto the MD.

    Parent

    Oops! (none / 0) (#29)
    by prittfumes on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 12:24:58 PM EST
    Yes, Medicare coverage must be curtailed because the system cannot and IMHO should not have to cover hip/knee replacements for 85 year old patients.

    Really?

    Parent

    Curtail Medicare (none / 0) (#31)
    by wrensis on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 12:58:02 PM EST
    I live in a 62 plus community and in the last six months have seen four residents have, hip and knee replacements.  Three out of the four are still dependent on the walkers and medical aids they used previously.  Two of the four refused to do the required rehab to allow the procedure to correct the problem. One of the four refuses pain medication that would relieve her discomfort. They are told they will be pain free and in most instances they will, IF they comply with the rehab requirements and follow directions. I am 76, had a hip replacement at 65 and did everything prior to and after the surgery to make it functional. I am suggesting that not all 85 year old patients should be automatically cleared for surgery unless it is apparent that they will be compliant. I agree with the person who stated that many medical tests and procedures are done for CYA medical care and even done when not necessary to bilk they system.  There are abuses all around.  Regulation is non existant. Medicare for all would significantly improve the over all health of our population. I apologise to the poster that I infered that her mother would not benefit from a surgery.  I am only trying to point out that many seniors are looking for magic and it does not exist.  Growing old is not for sissies.

    Parent
    They (none / 0) (#32)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 01:19:10 PM EST
    would either be highly curtailed or at least wait-listed in almost any concievable Universal system- the only exception is some iterations of the Bismark model.

    Parent
    Insurance Coverage Does Not Equal Health Care (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by prittfumes on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:29:09 AM EST
    Precisely, Anne.

    "Unless you're Warren Buffett, your family is just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," Harvard's Dr. David Himmelstein, an advocate for a single-payer health insurance program for the United States, said in a statement.

    "For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection," he added.

    [emphasis added]

    link

    Parent

    Great news! (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:33:15 AM EST
    We're moving the option to lose all your assets before getting medical care up the income ladder!

    Now, if the expansion were not a welfare program (Medicaid) but expanded single payer (Medicare) I could get excited about it.

    Not this.

    Parent

    Another thing that bears repeating (none / 0) (#34)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:04:47 PM EST
    is that the Dems/Obama plan reinforces the insurance industry's death grip on healthcare, reinforces their ability to buy off Congress and codifies wealth redistribution from the middle class to the rich. Obama want us to bolster the coffers of the very people who have given us this crisis. That's exactly what he/they did for the banksters, and we know well how that worked out...

    We have three major problems that Congress can fix:
    1)    Medicaid can't possibly cover all the poor people.
    2)    People & businesses that have been paying for health insurance and healthcare are being priced out of the ability to pay.
    3)    The insurance industry has a non-sustainable, for-obscene-profit model, and they already own too many of our elected members of Congress.

    The problem with the healthcare bill is that it only tries to address #1 & 2, and likely won't solve those problems anyway. If progressives can temporarily let go of the desire to create a big new welfare-healthcare system, we can at least solve problems #2 & 3 now, and work on #1 later.

    The current bill will obviously make problem #3 much worse than it is already. If the healthcare bill passes, costs will still go up, more people will need subsidies, and the average working/middle class American will pay more for their own healthcare while being saddled with paying for the poor as well. Many progressives think Congress should pass this bill so that we can "tweak it" down the road to make it more sustainable. Unfortunately, if it passes, we'll have blocked true reform for decades. You just can not "tweak" the basic foundation of this law that forces working Americans to buy insurance instead of health care.

    If we open up our currently existing single payer Medicare system to all Americans at cost, we could consolidate our resources and get health care at a reasonable price. Seniors and the disabled already pay monthly fees for Medicare, as well as medicine costs. If Congress made Medicare available for purchase by all  citizens (not to "residents" as HR676 stipulates), it would certainly cost less than what companies and individuals currently pay to insurance companies. It wouldn't be socialized medicine, because anyone can still choose to pay rip-off insurance companies instead of buying Medicare. It wouldn't available to non-citizens, so it won't become part of the incentive for bypassing immigration laws (a key issue for conservatives). Since many companies and individuals would be happy to reduce their healthcare costs by about 30%, it would be popular with voters on both the left and the right. We'd avoid the angry backlash by Independents and conservatives that we just saw in Massachusetts because it's fee-based, not a big new expensive welfare giveaway.

    Expanding Medicare would mean pooling our resources (a primary function of government!) for real health care cost reductions, not just propping up the destructive and greedy insurance industry. Right now, the insurance companies get most of the least inexpensive customers as clients, while the government pays for the more expensive pool of elderly and low income Americans. This would balance government costs by pulling in our younger Americans with fewer health care problems. Furthermore, since it's not a giveaway, we'll actually see real savings for companies and the middle class, which will stimulate the economy. Once it's in place, the left can push to expand Medicaid, the free and low cost healthcare for the poor. The purpose of offering fee-based Medicare would not be to create socialized medicine, but simply to allow working Americans and our companies to obtain healthcare without paying for the obscene CEO salaries and investor's profits.

    Socialized medicine might be a good idea in the long run, but it's not necessarily the solution to our healthcare crisis right now.


    Parent

    It won't work because the effort (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:26:22 AM EST
    was crafted in a completely irrational way.  The politics of the Senate was the most important driver in how this healthcare "reform" bill was designed.  It is meaningless just on paper because they did not consider the problem of healthcare in America when they wrote it - they focused entirely on the problem of Grassley, President Snowe, Baucus, Nelson, Lieberman, et al.  That is NOT how one crafts a serious effort at structural reform on an issue as complex and far-reaching as healthcare is.

    The only consistent goal throughout this debate has been to please a bunch of people who basically were negotiating in bad faith and whose only understanding of the healthcare crisis was that the overwhelming public dissatisfaction with the current situation was threatening their beloved insurance lobbyist's business models.  It is not possible to get a good policy with that approach.

    Bravo (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:42:45 AM EST
    Exactly.

    * * *

    And, not to beat the single payer drum too much -- since that's not possible anyhow ;-) -- the censorship and exclusion of single payer, which is a perfectly legitimate policy alternative shown to work in other countries, showed the "bad faith" of the administration from the very beginning. It's no surprise we are where we are.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 12:26:06 PM EST
    if we're going to try something just for the sake of trying, I think we should try single payer....

    When you say Single Payer!---You've Said It All! (none / 0) (#35)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 03:45:18 PM EST
    Thanks for a very nice summation.

    Parent
    Well, maybe Obama doesn't want (none / 0) (#1)
    by observed on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 07:56:34 AM EST
    people giving him credit for expanding the safety net, because then he might lose center-right votes. Better to sell the cost-control parts of the bill.
    Yeah, I know Kristof wrote that, but I'm sure he got some talking points from the WH.

    Sounds 11 dimensional to me (none / 0) (#21)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:37:34 AM EST
    Why do you think Obama wants to expand "the safety net" at all?

    Parent
    Hmmm... what (none / 0) (#25)
    by observed on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:51:20 AM EST
    I'm saying is that he would NOT want to be credited with something as socialist as expanding the safety net.

    Parent
    Who is Krisoff writing to here? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Salo on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 08:35:31 AM EST
    Jeremy Clarkson?

    Versailles (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:43:18 AM EST
    Who else?

    They only talk to each other.

    Parent

    Judd Gregg is making a bid to attend (none / 0) (#9)
    by esmense on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 08:55:16 AM EST
    the summit and encourage the President to start over and "work through the goals Republicans and Democrats agree on one by one rather than using the Democratic bills as a starting point or pitting them against a Republican-crafted alternative."

    His plan is a lot like the Senate plan (which is a basically Republican plan) except, as you would expect, it covers fewer people and provides even less regulation. It also plays to yuppie sensibilities by encouraging employers to offer premium savings to employees who "take steps to live a healthier lifestyle." (A nice companion to the Whole Foods policy of providing bonuses only to those who maintain the vital signs of someone in their 20s. Or, in reality that is, mostly only to people in their 20s).

    The Prez's summit is going to do nothing but make people like Gregg media darlings -- so reasonable! so experienced! he's leaving office and is only concerned with principle not re-election!

    The time to pass anything that offered any significant benefit to consumers, rather than to the industry, has passed.

    We're not going to get the Senate plan. We're going to get something worse, or nothing.

    The "wellness incentives"... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by lambert on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 10:39:11 AM EST
    ... which are what the "healthier lifestyles" are about, is a collossal loophole that could turn right back into pre-existing conditions. Even WaPo understands this.

    Parent
    If you're going (none / 0) (#12)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 09:46:47 AM EST
    to defend "bold experimentation" what you are defending should actually be bold.  I'm all for this line of defense when applied to future economic stimulus efforts but this?  No.

    i might defend it also BTD, (none / 0) (#33)
    by cpinva on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 02:02:31 PM EST
    assuming it's worth defending. myself, i shan't be holding my breath.

    the current bills are worse than doing nothing (none / 0) (#36)
    by Bornagaindem on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 05:28:32 PM EST
    These bills (House and Senate) mandate coverage without doing anything to control costs and force americans to buy individual coverage. The Senate bill lets employers off the hook and over time they will quit offering coverage at all. The democrats will be blamed long term if this bill passes all because Obama needs this be re-elected in 2012. Under no circumstances would I support this bill. It gives away the only bargaining chip we have that is worth anything (the individual mandate) to gain absolutely nothing except more money in insurers pockets.

    Huh? (none / 0) (#37)
    by pluege on Thu Feb 18, 2010 at 05:46:22 PM EST
    But the existing system is a runaway roller coaster.

    what kind of rollercoaster only goes up?

    And sheds passengers along the way?

    Man, that kristoff is some kind of writer.