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And for the record, none of us Obama "haters" EVER thought this was a good bill, your claim that this is a new objection we've come up with in our neverending quest to deny His Magisterial Greatness notwithstanding. We've said from day one that it was no good, and that if it passes, both the American people and the Democrats will have he** to pay for it.
We've also pointed out from day one that the unions are heavily opposed to the exise tax. This isn't us scrambling for reasons to oppose the bill--sounds like it is more the supporters of it who are scrambling to come up with reasons why. So instead of attacking us as "haters," tell us why it's such a great bill.
There is a lot of name-flinging and insult-tossing from those who think that Obama's plan is great and wonderful, but very little substance to counter the very real problems that we've cited about this plan from day one. Even the benefits you cite, meager as they are, won't take effect until Obama is out of office. Why do you suppose that is? Why wouldn't he want to run on the strengths of this marvelous piece of legislation?
yeah. thats the ticket. Parent
its the central element of this. I wont get sucked into the paranoid delusion talk. Parent
Nancy Pelosi set the record straight on two points:
You're not entitled to your own facts!
Based on the longer-term extrapolation, CBO expects that inflation-adjusted Medicare spending per beneficiary would increase at an average annual rate of less than 2 percent during the next two decades under the legislation--about half of the roughly 4 percent annual growth rate of the past two decades. It is unclear whether such a reduction in the growth rate could be achieved, and if so, whether it would be accomplished through greater efficiencies in the delivery of health care or would reduce access to care or diminish the quality of care. CBO
I would be curious what brilliant schemes you think they will come up with to "avoid" this pre existing condition thing. how exactly do you imagine they would do that?
how exactly do you imagine they would do that?
As any psychologist will tell you, the best predictor of behavior is past behavior:
That stuff is ALREADY illegal. But the insurers do it anyway, using what they call "post-claims underwriting." Here's a long but gripping article about a recent case in Colorado, where Jennifer Latham won a huge jury verdict against her insurer for dropping her post-claims:
"I think there's a business model here," Levy says. "The insurance company knows that if they deny a hundred claims, 95 of those people are going to go away. They know that five of them might consult with a lawyer, and that two or three of them might get a lawyer to take their case. And they know they're going to make it very expensive and protracted for those people to pursue their case."
http://www.westword.com/2010-02-11/news/health-care-hell-the-insurance-company-didn-t-give-a-damn-th e-jury-decided-it-ought-to-give-37-million/1
Even TPM posted about it, as the best argument for a Public Option, because it is not going away as long as we have insurance companies as the center of our healthcare system.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/tmcpac/2009/06/the-single-best-reason-for-kil.php
There have been many lawsuits over this practice and yet insurers keep on doing it. Why? See the quote from the lawyer above. It's worth it to them, because so few people actually fight them.
So, how is the healthcare reform bill that Obama is proposing going to fix this? The govt. says, "From now on, you can't deny people upfront because of preexisting conditions," the insurance companies say, "OK, we won't," and then continuing denying people post-claims. And this is a win...how?
k? Parent
I give Obama credit for this exercise as not dumbing down to the American people, for not acting on the premise that all that all of us can handle is soundbytes. Sure, have the soundbytes from those who want no more. But some of us want more than soundbytes, than mantras . . . such as "trust me." Parent
"I didn't campaign on the public option."
What's wrong with her? Didn't she get the memo?
It was her way of putting on the record that her leadership and caucus will not be the ones blamed when HCR dies.
The finger pointing blame game is heating up.
The WH says Plan B doesn't exist. Parent
I dont think the white has a plan B. they are taking this one home. Parent
Contrary to assertions by some (who I will not call Obamabots), there will be no opportunity to add to this bill next year or the year after or the year after. Once this thing is done, it's done for a good long while. So it's important not to settle for half-measures when, with a bit more fight, we could get more.
What is disturbing to many of us (who you will probably call Obama-haters) is that the process has been far too conciliatory to Republicans and conservadems on the White House's part. Now that reconciliation is at last on the table, that seems to be changing a bit.
Before, it was as though the White House and its Village stenographers thought that if they simply visualized a bill--ANY bill--passing by 60 votes, why then it would materialize and there would be great rejoicing--even if the bill had mandates with no public option, easily-manipulated state regulations, weak subsidies, and was riddled with holes big enough to drive a WellPoint blimp through.
The important thing to the White House was to pass a bill with 60 votes, preferably with at least one Republican on board, so that it could be hailed as a bipartisan health care bill--a great political victory for the Obama administration. The particulars of the bill mattered less. Everything was negotiable, with the aim to secure those 60 votes. So we ended up with a watered down bill that could actually hurt this administration more than help it.
I'm glad the battle isn't over because the Senate bill was a lemon. With reconciliation, there's an opportunity to make some lemonade. Of course, by now, I'd like mine pretty heavily spiked.... Parent
What I really do disagree with now is that idea that they will "of course" pass the bill. I don't see the votes in the House. Not yet. Parent
Too fractured and frightened. The Stimulus votes + Cap & Trade votes + House HCR votes = major pain in many many districts.
By not voting for the Senate bill, many in the above category can claim "it wasn't as good as ours, so I couldn't support it the second time around." Parent
And they will twist the arms of the House members - it's an election year and if the Dems can't pass a bill they are finished - because that's what it's all about - passing A bill. Not a good bill, but A bill so it can get checked off the list.
This is all gamesmanship right now. Parent
What most people want is to see that they are covered with insurance, or if they have insurance, it won't be taxed - that's the game. Coverage won't happen for years. Athough you could be right about one thing - the taxes could hit immediately.
That'll be a winner. Parent
If you just want to sprout Richard Burr's talking points about taxes, be my guest. Parent
But I guess they don't matter. Parent
If you're trying to get me to claim that everyone's happy with the bill, or that it's all roses and candy, you'll fail.
My point is that the bill does do valuable things quickly. And you have not even attempted to refute that. Parent
thats huge. even if the pumas here dont want it to be.
one other thing. when this done it doesnt mean its over. they still have three years of Obamas first term to tweak it.
my reaction here is usually to the "hate anything Obama says or does" mentality that I see here day after tiring day. at what point does any consideration the good this bill, even in its current form, could do get acknowledged? never is the answer. not as long as the hated Obama is president. Parent
On Friday's call, however, Andrews and Becerra left open the door that additional elements of reform (such as some variation of tort reform) could be added to the legislative language. Moreover, there are serious debates yet to be waged over what can actually pass using the reconciliation process. link
Guess the "New Democratic Party" doesn't need the support of trial lawyers either. Parent
whatever, I dont intend to spend the rest of the next three years undermining everything I have worked for my entire life out of spite. Parent
The system sucks and they're all dirty because of it. I would've voted for her, but this ongoing delusion that all this wouldnt be occurring now, is to me laughable. Parent
on the other hand its not surprising the healtcare lobby would try to buy her since she was the one expected to take this on before the primary. that doesnt mean it would have worked. those of us who know Hillary think the image people like you have of her is laughable.
and dont think that I am not aware that CDS is every bit as onerous as ODS.
I have tried hard to avoid both. Parent
I think it's fair to say that if you can honestly say you would've voted for her, you're not possessed by "CDS"..though I've lost count of how many times I've been accused of it. Parent
Hope for the best..expect the worst.. Parent
hmmm? Parent
In addition, with no MEANINGFUL cost controls built into the system, the parent of this child with a cleft palate may not be able to afford insurance anyway ESPECIALLY when we're all compelled to buy insurance. That compulsory system, my friend is not going to bring costs down all by itself (that is a myth depending on insurance companies to do the right thing, LOL!), it's only going to ensure that more people own junk insurance.
And this pre-existing condition nightmare only applies if the patient is on individual insurance. If they're covered through an employer HIPAA already protects them. . Scroll down and read about newborns
Parent
how exactly do you imagine they would do that? Parent
What you are doing is attempting policy via emotion and ignoring all the other facts of the matter. Parent
If Obama was a smart politician he would have taken those two issues, put them in a bill and asked the house and senate to vote the bill up or down. You could bet there were would be many republicans who wouldnt dare vote against those two things. Parent
but I dont know. they have fox news and world nut daily to create any reality they need. Parent
I wouldn't really put anything past them. Parent
The GOP wants a broken system to prevail for ideological reasons and the public has every right to know that. Parent
This video is a litmus test of compassionate conservativism and ought to come with an applause-o-meter whose scores on Congressional viewers could be posted for all voters to see . . . along with closeups of some of those vacant stares. Parent
Appears she'll be a tough negotiator in reconciliation although her vulnerable members definitely don't want to have to vote twice on this legislation. Wonder if she can hold it together. She doesn't yet have the votes IMHO.
Kabuki.
A day after President Obama's bipartisan summit, the White House is already moving in to referee the health care debate in Congress. White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel is scheduled to sit-down at the Capitol with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi at 5 p.m. In comments earlier in the day, Pelosi put the onus of passing a health care on the Senate, saying Democrats would move on legislation that requires a "simple majority" in the Senate and that Majority Leader Harry Reid "will see what he can get the votes for, and then we'll go from there."
In comments earlier in the day, Pelosi put the onus of passing a health care on the Senate, saying Democrats would move on legislation that requires a "simple majority" in the Senate and that Majority Leader Harry Reid "will see what he can get the votes for, and then we'll go from there."
http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0210/Rahm_and_Pelosi_meet_at_5_pm.html