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Progressive Failure: More On Political Bargaining

Nobody likes to acknowledge their own powerlessness, but no good can come from shutting one's eyes and pretending it's not true. It's a genuine problem that the threats and demands of progressives (for lack of a better term) aren't taken seriously at all, and will be taken even less seriously now. Facing that problem is a prerequisite to finding a way to solve it. -Glenn Greenwald

Progressive failure in political bargaining is not a new phenomenon. Just in the past 4 years, progressive bargaining on FISA, Iraq, the stimulus and many other issues demonstrates that time after time progressives have abjectly failed in their political bargaining, both under Republican Presidents and Democratic Presidents. After political defeat and after political triumph. Obviously something is wrong in the way they are going about it. I first started writing about this issue in the health bills context when I wrote my Madman Theory of Political Bargaining series last year. I strongly believe some introspection from progressives - pols and activists - is in order. More . . .

Back in August 2009 I wrote about the Village Blogger pressure on progressives:

When will we know whether a firm stand on the public option will mean no health care reform bill and what exactly the best offer will be on health care reform? Well, it sure is not now. Think of Kent Conrad as the party across the table in this negotiation. Or even Barack Obama. How do you negotiate with them? You tell them, and mean it, that you will not vote for a health care reform proposal that does not include a robust public option. You protest that you have already made the biggest concession anyone has made in the entire process - single payer. You ask for their best offer.

Before you ask for anything more show me what you have on the table. Right now, NOTHING is on the table from Conrad and Baucus. NOTHING. There is no reason to be even talking about what the Progressive Block should be considering.

Allowing Ezra Klein to be perceived as the "progressive voice" on health care was a terrible mistake. He simply did not, rightly or wrongly, believe in the progressive position on the health bills. It did a lot of damage.

Also damaging was the incompetence of the Progressive Block leadership. Grijalva and Woolsey are not up to the job. Similarly, progressive activist leadership was bad. Their inability to distance themselves from the Obama White House and the Democratic Party leadership made it virtually impossible for them to best advocate for a progressive vision of health care reform.

Because of that, progressives could never credibly bargain. Glenn notes the spillover over into the once "progressive" blogosphere:

This [progressive capitulation] has been going on forever, far beyond the health care process. After all, aside from contempt for the establishment media, the single greatest fuel for the rise of the liberal blogosphere was contempt for the Democratic Party's corporatism -- i.e., the fact that progressives had no influence within the Party, and Party leaders, TNR-style, spent far more energy scorning the Left than the Republicans. That's what is somewhat ironic about the blogosphere's almost-unanimous support for this health care bill (as well as their increasingly rabid, TNR-style demonization campaign against the handful of people on the Left who actually stuck to their guns and who are thus now viewed as worse than Pol Pot): namely, even if supporting the bill is the right thing to do, this conduct has reinforced and strengthened the powerlessness of progressives, i.e., the very problem the blogosphere was devoted to subverting.

There's a reason why so many progressive Beltway bloggers now turn to the war-supporting, Lieberman-loving, Left-bashing Jonathan Chait as the guide for what All Good Progressives do and think; that's the model that's being strengthened.

(Emphasis supplied.) One of the "epithets" I have employed in the last year is Village Blogger. In my mind, it meant that group of bloggers who has adopted a Beltway Mindset (albeit from a Democratic perspective.) They are incapable of looking critically at the functioning of the Democratic Party Establishment. Because of that, in my view, they could never really be "progressive bloggers."

But as Glenn notes, for now it is hard to separate the Village Bloggers from the rest of the Left blogs. At least on health issues, the cooptation was complete.

Can the progressive activists and the progressive blogosphere ever be a force independent of the Democratic Establishment? Only if some hard thinking and soul searching occurs.

Right now, too many are busy whipping for a bill they had no influence over and which stands as a monument to the failures of progressive bargaining.

Speaking for me only

< March Madness, Day 1 | Why Did Progressives Support A Public Option? >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I have seen this for years (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:08:17 AM EST
    some years ago when I worked in the film industry in LA I was at a company that had a very active and essentially unmoderated political newsgroup.  when I came there I caused quite a stir because apparently the right wingers (surprise there are lots of right wingers in the entertainment industry in LA) were used to running roughshod over the pathetic liberals.  
    it made and still makes me very mad.  progressives/liberals never have the stomach for a fight.  they are perennially apologetic for their position.  they were there and the wingers walked all over them.  well, until I got there.

    I think what you are talking about is something basic.  something almost genetic about progressives.  it is simply antithetical to their nature to fight.  and somehow they have come to see this as a positive thing.

    I dont know what can be done about it.


    A quotable on that point: (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:11:36 AM EST
    "A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in an argument." - Robert Frost (supposedly)

    Parent
    smart man (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:12:44 AM EST
    Robert Frost

    Parent
    Yeats: (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:20:47 AM EST
    "..the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.."

    Parent
    That cracks me up (none / 0) (#34)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:02:32 PM EST
    In my current daily military environment...it could never be more true.

    Parent
    Don't confuse Fauxgressive Blogtopia w/ Libruls (3.67 / 3) (#70)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:09:58 PM EST
    Actual Liberals have been unapologetically fighting 2 amins of Bush/Dick and the fakely left-of-center obRahma -- and getting vilified by all of them all along.

    C'mon, Liberals spotted Obama as slick huckster and not ready for Prime Time weakling all along and said so, even before his fans got repetitive motion wrist stress from playing the race card. (But ... but ... how can he possibly be a pushover for the RW?!?! He's black!)

    I don't know if we get universally slammed because we're too damn smart, good lookin' or that we've had a pretty good record of being correct about reality all along. I like to think it's a combination of all of the above. :-)

    Parent

    Knowing Obama is a phony (3.50 / 2) (#153)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 06:09:03 PM EST
    is one thing and taking him down is another.  As soon as the crazy Republican presidential candidate with a tic in his appears, liberals will rush to vote for Obama happily chanting, "while he isn't perfect, think of the Surpreme Court, he's better than insert name of current Republican opponent".   Liberals are afraid to take a hit so they can't give one and everybody knows it.   They need to take lessons from Focus on the Family on how to motivate a politician.

    Parent
    Hit The Nail on the Head (none / 0) (#72)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:15:47 PM EST
    Fausgressives v "Actual Liberals":

    Liberals spotted Obama as slick huckster and not ready for Prime Time weakling....

    Herding Democrats is like herding cats. The more active they are, the more "entitled" and special they feel.

    Parent

    democrats fall in love (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:18:38 PM EST
    repbulicans fall in line

    Parent
    so true (none / 0) (#84)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:43:19 PM EST
    The left does have its fighters (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:51:38 AM EST
    but then you'll witness people like CedwynCo and Booman pray and make hidden plays for the loud left leaders to be neutered :)

    Parent
    like the clucking of toungs (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:57:20 AM EST
    when Grayson got up on his hind legs.

    Parent
    I have no patience for the ignorant (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:00:57 PM EST
    a-holes.  I don't know how TomP, Turkana, Slinkerwink (my personal faves) put up with it....constantly set all that BS completely to the side and stick to the party platform day in and day out come rain, snow, sleet, hail, hell, fury, sobbing, gnashing, crashing, clashing :)

    Parent
    A big part of our problem (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:10:20 AM EST
    is that we don't really have a Club for Growth. As we have seen, MoveOn prefers raising money to influencing policy.

    If I had access to Mike Bloomberg's coffers, I could fix this problem. ;-)

    At some point, you look at outcomes (none / 0) (#11)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:22:46 AM EST
    I think we're looking at the policies that MoveOn wants.

    Parent
    Your mistake is to presume (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by andgarden on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:29:26 AM EST
    that the outcomes MoveOn cares about relate primarily to policy. I do not believe that is a correct assumption.

    Parent
    Fair enough... (none / 0) (#26)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:56:14 AM EST
    The outcome you're referring to being continued funding.

    Parent
    Yes, which comes primarily from (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:57:14 AM EST
    fairly unsophisticated small donors--who overwhelmingly support this package.

    Parent
    A failure on "our" part, reaching them (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:55:54 PM EST
    Maybe they're not reachable. Dunno.

    Outside policy advocacy sure didn't work for me (my goals being policy-oriented).

    Inside policy advocacy didn't work for Village progressives (assuming their goals to be policy- and not funding-oriented).

    Dunno where to go from here. It's a complete collapse.

    Parent

    There was a time when I cared what (5.00 / 8) (#53)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:33:44 PM EST
    MoveOn was doing, but not only do I no longer care what they are doing, I don't even know what they are doing, and I don't see them as a force that has to be reckoned with.

    The sad truth is that much of what used to be the reliably left blogosphere has spent the last ten years jockeying for relevance and access, with a concurrent goal of plumbing the unhappy (god, I hate this word) progressives for as much money as could be begged, shamed and guilted from them.  They pushed to elect as many Democrats as possible, not looking too far ahead to appreciate what it would mean to increase the ranks of the Blue Dogs.  There were rewards for their hard work, though: high traffic, interview gigs, book deals, talk-shows, transitioning over to the mainstream, and all that ooey-gooey access, complete with cocktail weenies and pats on the head from the president.  They had arrived, were being taken seriously...and then they forgot whose voices they created their blogs for, forgot principle in favor of pocketbook, believed themselves to be important at a new and intoxicating level.  Believed their own hype.

    Meanwhile, back at the Congressional Ranch, Democrats failed, over and over again, to put together the kind of leadership that would consolidate whatever power the Democrats had that would maximize their leverage, instead of accommodating the many factions of the party AND the corporate lobbyists who had their own agenda; they talked a good story, but failed to deliver, over and over and over again.

    So, here we are, with a Democratic president who brags to Fox about all the ideas from the left that he refuses to accommodate, and Congressional leadership that is still flailing.  I cannot think of a single occasion when Pelosi or Reid have not simply and sadly shrugged as they erased the many lines in the sand they have drawn since the 2007 Congress.  That doesn't even rise to "pathetic," and as near as I can tell, they stand for absolutely nothing - which has rendered them little more than useful idiots in enacting a Reagan-esque agenda and allowing Bush-era policies to continue unabated.

    I used to think it could be fixed, that at some point they would listen to us, hear our voices, care about our votes - but they don't.  The lasting image of Dennis Kucinich frantically whipping the rest of the recalcitrant Dems to vote for a bill that he finds abhorrent - without getting anything in exchange from Don Obama - is the one that will ensure a compliant and submissive caucus going forward, with lots of ring-kissing, and that's why Obama gave him the horse's head treatment.

    Chicago-style writ large, baby!  

    It all stinks - stinks like a mouse that died in the wall; the choice is to rip out the wall to get rid of the mouse, or just wait for the decomp to be complete for the stink to go away.  

    It's not just progressive failure in the ideological sense, it's failure to progress in the sense of advancing that ideology; it's impossible to go anywhere when you're running in circles at the end of a short leash - which, between the corporate masters and Obama's Chicago Way, is all these so-called progressives seem to be capable of.

    And I don't see any way to fix it.

    Parent

    Move On is right on the mark (none / 0) (#56)
    by magster on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:41:46 PM EST
    Yeah, it's the Kucinich spectacle ... (none / 0) (#63)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:57:43 PM EST
    Oh, man, that smarts. Way too much.

    Parent
    MoveOn is still cheerleading this faux (none / 0) (#68)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 01:56:23 PM EST
    reform because so many of their members haven't figured out they're getting screwed. The fact is, it's our own fault for not keeping those college students and other MoveOn members educated. It's not easy to question your heroes, and Obama is a brilliant communicator. Just look at how he didn't answer the questions in the Fox interview. While our side portrays the interviewer as a bully, the right gets to portray the Prez as evasive, even a sneaky liar (we get to buy into a pool LIKE the once Congress has, this reduces the deficit but whoops, forgot to mention the huge increases in your taxes and insurance rates, the bill will be out "days before it's voted on," except for those pesky details we don't want you noticing like state deals, Stupak and more). Honest to god, many people think our Dems have a secret plan to give us the public option in the last minute. In reality, our Party is going to sneak stuff most Americans don't like into the bill and not release those details in enough time to stop them.

    Parent
    Maybe lots of their members are not (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by masslib on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:13:45 PM EST
    getting screwed.  Maybe they have a lot of money.  In truth, there are still lots of upper middle class Americans who generally never think about their health care costs.  Then they hear "generous subsidies" for the little people and they want to support a nice "charitable" policy.  

    Parent
    Yeah, I guess (none / 0) (#121)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:45:14 PM EST
    Howz that workin' out in Massachusetts?

    Parent
    Or, more of the regulatory stuff (none / 0) (#79)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:28:46 PM EST
    will disappear from the final bill.  Like the National Insurance Rate Authority, which was supposed to provide oversight to prevent big increases in premiums - it's out.

    And there will be other changes, which I very much doubt will be of benefit to us.


    Parent

    For me, as usual, the most cogent comment (none / 0) (#86)
    by rennies on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:49:22 PM EST
    on the topic.

    Brava, Anne!

    Parent

    From Bob Reich article posted at TPM (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by magster on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:17:28 AM EST
    on the Clinton plan:

    On February 5, 1994, the National Association of Manufacturers passed a resolution declaring its opposition to the Clinton plan. Not long after that, Michigan Democrat John Dingell, who was managing the health care bill for the House, approached the senior House Republican on the bill to seek a compromise. According to Dingell, the response was: "There's no way you're going to get a single vote on this [Republican] side of the aisle. You will not only not get a vote here, but we've been instructed that if we participate in that undertaking at all, those of us who do will lose our seniority and will not be ranking minority members within the Republican Party."

    Any sort of progressive party discipline from Reid or Obama was totally lacking.  The Dems have to play hardball with their own before attempting to play harball with the GOP.  They are out of their league.

    Seems to me (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:02:57 PM EST
    that a lot of the discussion regarding the ineptitude of the progressives in the Dem party assumes that more people in the party care about the things "progressives" care about; based on actions which to me speak louder than words, they don't care.  I.e., many don't care that the proposed legislation has no caps on insurance costs, that mandates citizens to buy insurance they may or may not be able to afford, even with subsidies, that there's no real enforcement mechanism in place, etc.  I ask: Does our Dem Party care any more about the little guy or even the average guy [or gal]?  Based on the history and content of the health insurance legislation and the bank bailouts, I think far less than it should.

    Parent
    so (3.50 / 2) (#36)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:04:35 PM EST
    what we should do then is take our marbles and go home and leave people to the mercy of the insurance companies?

    um no


    Parent

    So (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:08:14 PM EST
    how is this POS bill that mandates we have to buy their isnurance not leaving people at their mercy? If you care about people being at the Mercy of the insurance companies then you would defnitely be AGAINST this bill.

    Parent
    that would be called your opinion (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:21:39 PM EST
    and not apparently the opinion of every (single now?) democrat in congress except the abortion nuts as well as people like Michael Moore.

    I am pretty comfortable with my won opinion.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:32:28 PM EST
    it's not my opinion. This bill DOES mandate that you buy coverage from the same insurance companies that we are currently "at the mercy of".

    And the fact that the wave the white flaggers are voting for it DOES NOT inspire confidence from me like it does you.

    Parent

    You KNOW the opinions (none / 0) (#48)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:29:12 PM EST
    of those who are voting for but don't support the bill?  You KNOW Kucinich agrees with you? hardy har har

    psstt... Abortion nuts.  teehee, good one.

    Parent

    I know he is (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:41:39 PM EST
    voting for the bill.
    what, exactly, else do I need to know?

    Parent
    Oh come on (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:46:35 PM EST
    You have your legitimate reasons for supporting the bill, but to stretch that to say that someone who feels compelled to vote for the bill agrees with your position is silly.

    Seemed to me Kucinich is voting for the bill because he feels sorry for the President.  It's also a legitimate vote but he does not match your position.

    Parent

    I didnt say anything like that (none / 0) (#59)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:50:24 PM EST
    I said that they clearly do NOT agree with the comment I was responding to.
    or I assume they would not be voting for the bill.

    Parent
    abortion nuts???? (none / 0) (#57)
    by observed on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:46:24 PM EST
    REPUBLICAN!

    Parent
    before you get your panties in a wad (none / 0) (#60)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:51:16 PM EST
    you should know I was talking about abortion opponents.

    you know, abortion nuts?

    Parent

    oh the anti choicers (none / 0) (#171)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 04:06:22 AM EST
    I can almost agree with you on calling them nutballs. How much time do you have to have on your hands to be obsessed with other peoples reproductive decisions? My guess is far too much time.

    (unbunching my panties because they were definitely in a wad) ;)

    Parent

    Abortion nuts? (none / 0) (#167)
    by cawaltz on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:15:01 PM EST
    That is waaaaaaaaay out of line.

    I suspect that you don't have a uterus and have never had a complicated pregnancy- one that jeopardized your well being and as a consequence your family's well being. I suspect you've never had to worry about your job in a right to work state due to an unintended pregnancy. I suspect you have never had to worry about raising a child on your own because the other person involved in creating said fetus has decided that he doesn't want to contribute to that child's well being(even if you force a man to provide financial support - you can not force them to be there when that child gets sick or when that child needs emotional guidance, not just financial means).

    If you had you might not be so quick to call someone a nut for caring about a women's choice. It's an important issue for half of us. It's a LIFE ALTERING position for half of us. It is about having the ability to determine whether or not to take on the physical, mental, and emotionl needs of another being. It means understanding that doing so means that you are placing your own physical, emotional, and mental well being at many points and times secondary to a being that will be dependant upon you for AT THE LEAST eighteen years.

    I don't think it is NUTS at all to care about something that has the ability to affect half the population in such a way at all. On the contrary, I think it is NUTS to consider this a non issue.

    Parent

    We'll see how they do with the (none / 0) (#43)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:11:03 PM EST
    enforcement of the new insurance rules. Those are the most/only popular part of the bill, and if they are strongly and demonstrably enforced the whole thing will not have been a complete waste of time.

    I'm not optimistic about it, but I would love to be proved wrong in this case.

    Parent

    I think the current (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:17:05 PM EST
    bill would require a refund to the insureds if the insurance company does not spend at least 85% of its premiums on health care bills.....

    There could be fertile ground for class action lawsuits for such refunds....

    Parent

    which is exactly (2.00 / 1) (#7)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:19:07 AM EST
    what they are doing now.  which is why they are not irrelevant.

    Parent
    We need a Fight Club (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by kmblue on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:18:25 AM EST
    more than a club for growth

    Yes... (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:32:01 AM EST
    we need a lesson in aggressive negotiations.  We have no big campaign checks to threaten to pull like our adversaries, no money power...but we have numbers, people power.  We fail to wield this power...too fat, too lazy, too afraid, I don't know...I guess its gotta get much worse still before we mobilize with our pitchforks.  

    The way we play it now the crooked Dems know we got nowhere else to go, so they are free to sh*t all over issues near and dear to us, and cater to their paymasters instead.  It won't stop until we hit the street or stop voting for Dems...the Dems have no reason to change.

    Parent

    Maybe it's intentional (none / 0) (#87)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:49:50 PM EST
    that the Democrats who get elected are wimps.  I mean really, why would someone donate money to some of these people...they are not inspirational, overly intelligent, let alone attractive and/or assetive.  Republicans get something for their money when they elect their reps...so the question must be why?  Maybe wimps are precisely what some the Dem donors want.  The majority of voters are just followers....and the big organizations...well, we know how well they fight for their constituency (Naral Prochoice,,,Planned Parenthood) Reminds me of some of those charitable organizations that exist to pay salaries to their executives...

    Parent
    You're onto something... (none / 0) (#150)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 05:27:12 PM EST
    my friend, the harsh reality good-hearted Dem voters refuse to accept...aside from a few bones you're getting played.  I mean the big players, the too big to fails...they're giving to both D & R alike hand over fist.  Money, jobs after leaving office, favors for favors.

    Maybe it is the way of the world and there is no changin' it...but at least during the labor movement, the civil rights movement, etc...people power scared the sh*t outta some mofos and got bigger bones.  We need a healthcare movement hittin' the streets, and all we've got is tea parties on the tube.  

    Parent

    I think we need politicians who (5.00 / 0) (#29)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:58:15 AM EST
    would actually qualify for that club.

    The liberal establishment that informed my early understanding of the Democratic Party were spitfires and definitely not afraid of a fight.

    I think - and I've written this a number of times in the past month or two - that the politicians on both sides of the aisle in the early 21st Century are lightweights.  They came out of two successive periods of growth, prosperity and were to a large extent elected on the basis of their stands on things like School Prayer rather than because of their ability to envision, plan and enact tough policy that would have addressed serious issues affecting Americans lives.

    The large majority of these folks are completely out of their depth.

    Also worth mentioning that this Congress is made up of people who were elected in a period of intense anti-intellectualism.

    The Republicans ended up with a bunch of halfwitted thugs on their side (thanks largely to Tom DeLay and Newt Gingrich); while the Democrats' response was to find the prettiest, nicest halfwits to promote amongst their ranks (see Evan Bayh et al).

    The Democrats need to start to cultivate talent that is smart, wiley, courageous and visionary.  Until then, there will be no real reason to convene a fight club meeting - at least not in a room larger than 200 SQ FT.

    Parent

    We need both (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:11:42 PM EST
    "... the Left blogs" (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21:33 AM EST
    Well, we single payer advocates and feminists at Corrente like to think of ourselves as "left". Then again, we're proudly C list, and have no access at all.  There's also the kind of media critique that used to be performed by our high traffic blogs in the world of the econoblogs, along with a critique of political economy. So the co-optation, though extensive, is not complete.

    Isn't it weird how the Short Pants media cave too (none / 0) (#81)
    by Ellie on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:33:58 PM EST
    ... after some Dem "leader" deigns to have a very special conference call handing down the latest script. And always adding ...

    "If we can bring a little joy into your hum-drum lives, our efforts ain't been in vain fer nuthin!" - Lina Lamont (Singin' in the Rain)

    Parent

    Nancy Pelosi just trotted out (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:33:57 AM EST
    another sob story about how the insurance companies are screwing people, in this case a small business owner whose company's rates went up because one employee had a valid insurance claim.

    Absolutely true, the insurance industry's for-profit business model is a huge problem, but how ironic that they keep using the "we're saving you from the big bad insurance companies" meme when the Dems are actually doing the exact opposite - forcing us to buy their crappy product at ever increasing prices.

    They must think voters aren't going eventually to notice the abject failure of this "give a little, take a lot" strategy.


    Eventually, one begins to wonder if (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:45:35 AM EST
    congress is depending 100% on the guidance and advice from United Healthcare for how to fix this, and they have assured them that these awful scenarios will be erradicated if congress just follows their instructions.
     

    Parent
    The insurance sharks are on the attack (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:51:12 AM EST
    Congress solution: Throw more people into the pool to feed the sharks. Ironic.

    Parent
    After (if) this bill passes (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:05:17 PM EST
    all pols lose the right forever to make such sob stories a part of their pitch. I don't want to see one victim of insurance scams trotted out at speeches, SOTU, etc. They had their chance to lessen the power of insurance companies, and instead they strengthened them.

    Either fix the problem, or STFU.

    Parent

    this is what happens (5.00 / 8) (#17)
    by Turkana on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:36:26 AM EST
    when a sizable chunk of the party cares more for personality than issues.

    I don't see willing to jam a finger (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by kidneystones on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:47:01 AM EST
    in anyone's eye, old friend. Rahm counts you as his the same way he sneers at BTD.

    Being smart enough to see the lack of power is worth what exactly, if you're not willing to walk out the door, or pull the lever for the other team.

    Your bright observations hold as much coercive power as Kucinich's flip-flop and cheer-leading.

    Unless you're willing to walk, you got nothing.

    Rahm knows it. Now, everyone else does, too.


    Parent

    if there was an alternative (none / 0) (#30)
    by Turkana on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    i'd be open to it. there isn't.

    Parent
    It won't always be so (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:06:15 PM EST
    Never waste a crisis!!!!!!  You have a wonderful voice out there. I'd have thrown this effing computer in the lake if not for you and TomP and BTD.  Everybody else has even forgotten what a damned Democrat is.  They've argued their damned identity away, negotiated it into the gutter :)

    Parent
    people excuse obama (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Turkana on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:13:16 PM EST
    by pointing to the disasters he inherited. which is half right. because those disasters created a political moment where transformational change truly became possible. if only he would have seized that moment.

    Parent
    Recognizing what was inherited (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:54:24 PM EST
    from the previous administration is fine, but people who use it to excuse this administration weren't listening during the job interview. The man said he could fix all the things that had the country in a mess. He simply accelerated the speed of the downward spiral.

    Parent
    That moment was siezed - (none / 0) (#71)
    by dead dancer on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:12:52 PM EST
    but only for the blue dogs and the GOP

    Parent
    There was an alternative (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by cawaltz on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 06:07:22 PM EST
    You just rejected it and maligned those that went with the alternative.

    The progressives need to stop quaking in their boots and actually STAND for their principles. The fact that the Democrats negotiated you away was because they KNEW you'd be facing the same thing in 2010 and 2012 as you did in 2008 when you were willing to compromise your belief sets to get the win. It isn't any wonder they'd sell you out. They think they own you and those like you because you are unwilling to walk away from the table. The writing was on the wall in 2008.

    Parent

    what alternative (none / 0) (#164)
    by Turkana on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 10:08:12 PM EST
    was that?

    Parent
    The same alternative you (none / 0) (#165)
    by cawaltz on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 10:54:56 PM EST
    are going to have in 2010 and 2012. You can choose NOT to enable poor behavior-oh wait - then people might confuse you with a Republican enabler........

    It's actually quite the dilemna the progressives have painted themselves into. They either become the P word or continue to enable. I can't say that I'm not enjoying watching some come to the realization that perhaps- just maybe- the people who were accused of everything from racism to being covert Republicans had the right strategy from the get go when they drew their lines in the proverbial sand.

    It's just a shame that the progressives don't seem to understand Madman political bargaining whatsoever. The strongest position is being willing to walk away from the table. If you can't or won't then don't be surprised when all you get is scraps.

    If the progressives were smart they'd declare themselves Independants and force the Democrats to earn their votes on issues and merit. I'm not holding my breath though.

    Parent

    you didn't answer the question (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Turkana on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:04:29 AM EST
    what alternative?

    Parent
    Yes I did (none / 0) (#172)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:07:36 AM EST
    You just don't like the answer Turkana.

    I'll repeat what the answer isn't though. It isn't rewarding bad behavior over and over again because you are afraid if you don't that the Republican party will win.

    There has to be a line in the sand and certain principles that can not be willingly compromised. Until progressives(or default democrats) find and are able to state with resolve what their line in the sand is from the get go and then follow through, I'd expect this same type of result on any type of reform over and over.

    Furthermore, it'd probably go a long way if the progressive block chose to respect people willing and capable of creating lines to begin with rather than maligning them as unreasonable for being unwilling to compromise their belief set to begin with as I have seen them do.

    About 40% of us have recognized both sides are playing their "base" for suckers. Until another 20% of you from either side are able to acknowledge it the country is in for some rough times.

    Parent

    you keep talking in circles (none / 0) (#177)
    by Turkana on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 01:55:58 PM EST
    tell me what the answer is.

    Parent
    So true (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:48:33 AM EST
    Early in this process I received e=mails from friends urging me to contact my congresscritters to support "Obama's" health care plan. They had no idea what was being proposed in any of the committees but since Obama said he had a plan that was enough for them.

    Parent
    And the money they need (none / 0) (#90)
    by rennies on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:53:41 PM EST
    to be re-elected.

    I have come to the conclusion -- reluctantly -- that the Democrats are just as venal as the Repugs.

    They are all bought. God save us.

    Parent

    Props (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:37:38 AM EST
    Best part of the Greenwald piece today, was the props to you.  

    Face it, the Democratic Party now has morphed into the Moderate Republican Party the Independents were looking for all these years.  The "Progressives", Lefties and Dem base are a given.  The party will always swing towards the vapid middle Republicanism.  Obama promised he would do that and he is delivering.  

     Many bloggers are helping this turn to this model.  

    I love GG's Update to his post (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:33:11 PM EST
    about the WH public option kabuki.  Read his post again if you haven't seen that. Priceless.

    Parent
    Dems wear blinkers about Indies and Greens (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Ellie on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:05:44 PM EST
    Continually making derisive assumptions followed by the usual whining about how it's our "fault" that the hapless do-nothing, dry powder AristoCrats lost again.

    It's tired. It's stupid. It's not even good for a refreshing eye-roll anymore.

    Apropos of nothing, my first "real" job out of college was working for a hard-@ssed labor negotiator and unionizer. He always made me learn stuff cold before we began a negotiation because he'd never decide until, as he put it, "the danishes are on the table."

    Sometimes I'd introduce our agenda (minus 15-30% of the demands) and he'd clean the bases when a certain threshold was met.

    Sometimes he'd bat leadoff and I'd more "softly" pull them over. However, if I was the one who had his back, I always knew that we weren't far from walking away from the table.

    Mr. Drama would interrupt me at some point and abruptly announce, "I think we've had enough for one day," and motion for me to pack up -- including the danishes.

    Then very formally, he'd say, "Thanks for the meeting gentlemen ... and Ms. Woman and Ms. Other Woman. And thank you for the lovely pastries."

    It was to make them thankful he didn't demand the shirts off their backs. (LOL, what an @sshole.)


    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 07:02:54 PM EST
    It is fun to work with people like that. I am so not that way that I watch and learn in awe.


    Parent
    FWIW, the summary (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by andgarden on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 01:55:07 PM EST
    is here.

    Every state seems to get the Nebraska deal, which is good news.

    good news! (none / 0) (#69)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:00:53 PM EST
    thats a lot to rationalize away.

    they better get started

    Parent

    School loan language (none / 0) (#80)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:33:36 PM EST
    I would like to know the impact of the school loan language.

    And this [a requirement to provide coverage for non-dependent children up to age 26 to all existing health insurance plans starting six months after enactment.]

    It's possible our 17 yr old may fall into a hole.  It'll be interesting to see how that works.

    Parent

    I think your 17 year old is still (none / 0) (#83)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:37:38 PM EST
    covered until age 19 now, no?

    Parent
    Depends on your state (none / 0) (#89)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:51:49 PM EST
    Mine is covered until he is 19 if he's in school full time.  He wants to take a year or two to work and then head back to college.

    Parent
    Er', should we wish (none / 0) (#95)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:03:36 PM EST
    him good luck in job hunting or not?  Bad economies can cause more kids (those with the means) to go to college since there are no jobs....

    Parent
    He's 17 (none / 0) (#111)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:19:10 PM EST
    He's truly 17 year old guy.

    This is a kid who was in college at 15 and we allowed him to have a 'Sr' year at high school.  He now has D's in high school courses!  ha!  and he thinks he going to go out and get a decent paying job!  He's rebelling and we are kind of shaking our heads (oy) and wishing him luck.  We try hard to keep our sense of humor in check.  At 17, he's very offended when his parents laugh (or breathe.)

    Parent

    that sounds like my transcript (none / 0) (#115)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:30:40 PM EST
    and I have done pretty well.  dont worry.  there is still hope.

    Parent
    Depends on your policy (none / 0) (#119)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:41:47 PM EST
    not your state.

    I've had employers who covered my kids to 25 whether they were in school or not, and others who covered them only to age 18 unless they were in school, which would then only add coverage to age 22 even if they were still in school.


    Parent

    Both actually (none / 0) (#124)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:49:16 PM EST
    I believe it's both.  The state sets minimum policy and the policies can go beyond that.  Different states have different standards.  Our insurer does not go beyond the minimum requirement.

    Parent
    That is correct. (none / 0) (#133)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:01:03 PM EST
    For instance, here it is unmarried child under 19, an unmarried full-time student under 24 or an unmarried child of any age who is dependent upon the parent and medically certified as disabled.  

    Employer groups are free to chose ages above and beyond that, but carriers cannot offer anything less.  

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#134)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:01:24 PM EST
    Anyone can exceed the minimums. Few do :) I've only had one employer generous enough to include dependent children to 25 without having to be in school.

    Parent
    The comments were speaking to minimums (none / 0) (#135)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:03:49 PM EST
    the way I read them.

    Parent
    I would also like to know the impact (none / 0) (#85)
    by CST on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:46:57 PM EST
    of the student loan language.  Particularly the part that says you can consolidate under a direct loan, regardless of whether you are already in repayment.

    Something I might want to look into.

    Parent

    I dont really (none / 0) (#98)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:05:28 PM EST
    get the point of putting it in this bill.
    what was the advantage of that?

    Parent
    I don't get it either (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by CST on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:08:18 PM EST
    but if it's actually a good thing, I'll take it either way.

    "Republicans voted against student loans"?  Maybe that's the point, I don't know.  The real issue for me is I have no idea what this section is actually saying.

    Parent

    Supposedly it gave them an extra $50b (none / 0) (#105)
    by andgarden on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:13:42 PM EST
    of deficit reduction.

    Parent
    I will (none / 0) (#108)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:15:29 PM EST
    accept that

    Parent
    It gets (none / 0) (#160)
    by jbindc on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:44:55 PM EST
    the college kiddies of OFA to pay attention and think there's something good it in for them.

    Parent
    Spelunkin' Dems were always going to cave (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Ellie on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:20:07 PM EST
    ... just in time for Easter. They even announced it. It's their way.

    Step one: Set arbitrary artificial deadline.

    Step two: Do some small caves in the foothills, spreading the political "damage" among themselves so as to avoid having one baddie every time.

    Step three: Complain in lame fashion that they really really wanted to go for it this time, only [the deadline; the Repug meanies; the Blue Dog; shaddap you ideologically pure Libs, we're being REAL; if only you'd give more money and row harder; blah blah blah]

    They. Just. Don't. Give a sh*t.

    Maybe they are dragging out the vote until (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:52:47 PM EST
    it is too late in every state to register a primary candidate to challenge the seats of those who vote YAY.

    Kucinich didn't announce his support until he was safe. It'll be interesting to see if a pattern emerges.

    Parent

    It's the old question (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:27:41 PM EST
    as per a gilas girl: party or movement? I think it's definitively settled now. You can't work within the party to change it without being coopted yourself unless you're very very clear about what you're doing. And there are many pressures and levers and financial incentives the party can use to coopt you and make it seem there's no other way than to go with that flow.

    I think the first thing has to be recognizing there's a difference between the goals and interests of the party and those of people more dedicated to producing progressive change in society. Markos has always been clear about which side he's on and where the lines are but the average dkos member and most progressive/liberal bloggers don't seem to have a clue there's even a tension there. They see it in terms of their individual views and not in terms of something larger like a movement the way conservatives have organized themselves to take action over the past couple of decades. And Markos has let the party hacks and online ward heelers successfully drive away the most effective movement people from the largest "progressive" site, further tipping the dynamic. The only movement voices left are tolerated only when they advocate in ways not in conflict with party goals.

    The second thing has to be making a choice. You have to recognize that when it comes right down to it there are some issues where you've going to have to choose - party or movement. If you don't recognize there's a distinction, you're more easily subject to the pressure to fall in line. If you do recognize the distinction, you have a reason, an ideal, a larger vision to hold onto beyond the purely negative labels of contrarianism and purity and selfishness the party hacks try to hang on you.

    A third aspect is the anti-intellectualism and general susceptibility to following the dictates of the leader that seems to be very strong now. It makes people not willing or able to think their way beyond what they're being told by the leader. There's too few strong, uncompromised movement voices like Greenwald acting as leaders not allied with the party, showing the way, waking people up to the fact that progressive clearly doesn't equal Democratic Party and that it's possible to go against the tide and successfully fight being marginalized by the party and its interests.

    Grayson had to challenge a Dem in primary (none / 0) (#94)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:02:45 PM EST
    Twice.  Florida Dems preferred a loser to newcomer Grayson.  But Grayson made a fortune in business and didn't need their money or advice.  He beat the Dem. in the primary and then beat the Republican.  

    Parent
    Amen! (none / 0) (#173)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:15:59 AM EST
    Defaulting to Democrat and demonizing the opposition point of view is the easier viewpoint, but easier doesn't necessarily wield optimal results if you want a specific result on specific issues.

    Parent
    The only answer is to create a party within... (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Salo on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:51:38 PM EST
    ...the party.  Some sort of militant extension of social democracy willing to literally fight.

    That's all you can do.

    I disagree (none / 0) (#166)
    by cawaltz on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 10:58:42 PM EST
    I think that working within the infrastructure has not been a successful strategy at all. I honestly wish that it would be better to have an option C. That way we can quite seesawing between bad and worse.

    Parent
    WEll (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:59:35 AM EST
    perhaps the positive bloodbath that's coming in Nov. can be used to change leadership.

    These people are more like cultists than anything else. They seem to want to please the cult leader more than do their job or help their constituents.

    Much smarter Obama supporters have (none / 0) (#10)
    by kidneystones on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21:57 AM EST
    explained that the perfect is the enemy of the good, that 16 million unemployed is a sign that the President is doing a 'decent job' on the economy, and that health care premiums will not go up. Once voters understand how gosh darn good 'deem and pass' hcr is, voters are going to feel a lot better about 'finally' getting things done.

    Yup.Yup.Yup. It's an historic platform upon which to build on and the fact that Kucinich gave away the progressive store the one time progressives could have squeezed some miniscule concessions is a sign of his political genius and his integrity.

    Camel's nose coming inside the tent. Good times are sure to follow in November. Count on it!

    You forgot to ask for more money (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:23:44 AM EST
    as part of your pitch.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#15)
    by magster on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:33:05 AM EST
    the Dems won't lose Congress this fall.  I actually look forward to maybe ridding the House of some Blue Dogs with seniority.

    Parent
    The bill hasn't passed (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by kidneystones on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:38:19 AM EST
    And given the feckless performance of the left, I'd rather see the PINOs flushed.

    And as for you, Armando, what's up with linking to a piece that showers you in glory.

    According to Greenwald, you're the only genius on the block. I mean, you're more right than Markos, but that's not saying much.

    Either way, kudos. You need some self-depreciating caveat.

    GG showers you with laurals.

    Parent

    I think that even if the bill doesn't pass (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by magster on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:09:21 PM EST
    The election is in 7 months and the GOP is too full of guys like that Parkinson's mocker for the GOP to maintain its momentum.

    Parent
    Smart doesn't equal common sense (none / 0) (#100)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:07:00 PM EST
    The primary proved that elites don't have common sense and are as easily marketed as Repubs...as long as a different model is used. And academia completely fell for the Obama marketing strategy...so overall, not encouraging.

    Parent
    Lack of leadership (none / 0) (#22)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 11:47:43 AM EST
    Progressives lack leadership. Who in Washington has the power and the commitment to take the reins and bring the progressive movement together?

    We've spent more time and energy battling ourselves than working towards a goal. Look at how the progressive community has split over HCR?  We are anything but united.

    That's why I've (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:00:46 PM EST
    always argued for a strong candidate who would rally the party around issues. Weak candidates like Obama lead to more disunity not less.

    Parent
    agree completely (none / 0) (#140)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:23:10 PM EST
    Strong and wrong beats weak and right.  And weak and wrong?  Disaster.

    Parent
    Do we have any real (none / 0) (#41)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:08:36 PM EST
    political leadership in this country? Leadership of the traditional sort, that is motivated by concern for what's best for the country, schooled in reality-based view of what that might mean?

    Parent
    The Dem party passed up that possibility (1.00 / 1) (#92)
    by rennies on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:00:45 PM EST
    when they rejected HRC in the primaries.

    Talk about a candidate with principles, guts, intelligence, experience.

    Dems got what they wanted. Wimpy, empty suit.

    Parent

    gawd (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:04:13 PM EST
    make it stop

    Parent
    Perhaps this poster has not learned (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:08:56 PM EST
    that the art of allusion is preferred here....but states it flat out....

    Points for honesty....

    Parent

    I (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:10:41 PM EST
    guess

    Parent
    I did not see this coming (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 05:03:52 PM EST
    but since issue of Hilary has come up... For me, that ship has sailed. I supported her, but I feared that had she been nominated & elected, the constant MSM and blogosphere misogynistic chatter about her would not have stopped and might have made it very difficult for her to govern. She also would have had to put up with the same Republican chorus about Dems being soft on terrorism.  Her appointment as SoS, IMO, seems to have ended the chatter.  

    I was actually NOT intending to look back, but rather forward and to the present. I don't think all the members of Congress mentioned above are true leaders.  They have all caved. Who is talking about the future of our nation out of concern for our future, rather than for the purpose of scoring political points?  Who's  sounding the warnings about our financial future, with a view to suggesting a way forward that brings along every group in the nation?  

    Parent

    Oy (none / 0) (#101)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:07:20 PM EST
    Yes...we do have (1.00 / 1) (#107)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:15:00 PM EST
    individual stand outs...Barney Frank, Howard Berman, Waxman, Grayson, Weiner and others...In the Senate, Sherrod Brown..But so what....Leadership is weak.  Anyway, the fact is, the Democratic party leadership sabotaged Hillary in favor of Obama. That should tell us something.  And Hillary was unprepared for double dealing...did not anticipate or see what was happening.  But the new activists who helped Obama in the primaries are the ones who really got taken...by marketing and outright lies.  

    Parent
    you know (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:18:20 PM EST
    I am not trying to start a fight but honest to god I dont understand why if Hillary has moved on you cannot.
     

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#112)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:21:40 PM EST
    Sheesh.

    Parent
    Is that a progressive principle? (none / 0) (#118)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:40:09 PM EST
    Move on and don't analyze the problem?  The problem became evident in the primaries. With Democratic leadership and  voters for change. Progressives were hoodwinked.  Unless we understand why, the same thing will happen and has happened over and over.  At any rate, those that fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it. Since few progressive bloggers care to examine what prompted them to support a complete unknown with no experience and no evident leadership skills, is it any surprise that progressive policy failure is the result?  

    Parent
    its going on two years (3.67 / 3) (#122)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:45:14 PM EST
    can you tell us if the problem is going to be sufficiently analyzed in our lifetimes?

    Parent
    Cite where I can read these analyses? (none / 0) (#141)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:28:28 PM EST
    I don't recall much analysis from "progressive" bloggers about their error in judgment vis a vis Obama.  I don't recall any apology for the way the primaries were run...let alone any acknowledgment that they were rigged.  And the rigging continues...the kabuki about the public option and 60 votes needed...etc etc.

    Parent
    you know what (none / 0) (#143)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:36:40 PM EST
    Im sorry I asked

    Parent
    Uh, yeah, I think you blew it (none / 0) (#154)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 06:47:04 PM EST
    by asking....

    Parent
    That's the trouble with (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:31:44 PM EST
    people who are that virtuous and pure of motive: they're just too unworldly and naive for the double-dealing, rough-and-tumble world of politics.

    She needs to return to that 19th century novel she was so abruptly jettisoned from.

    Parent

    now now (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:36:09 PM EST
    lets not unfairly lump Hillary in with those folks.
    I was a Hillary supporter.  the difference between me and them is that I respected Hillary enough to do what she repeatedly asked of her supporters.

    get behind this president.

    Parent

    Im not talking (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:45:47 PM EST
    about Clinton, Im talking about this impossibly idealized image of her that so many still seem to want to cling to. It has very little to do with the real political world, imo.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:54:07 PM EST
    It is identifying with a brand. Kind of like sports. Hilarious the passion involved, because in the end it has nothing to do with the team or idol, but some kind of fictional status.

    Parent
    you are so (none / 0) (#131)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:57:04 PM EST
    mean

    Parent
    Nah (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:28:54 PM EST
    We all do it to some degree through the things and ideas we choose to identify with. But passionate identification gets pretty silly, imo, when it comes to sports and politics. Analysis of sports and politics is often interesting but thinking one team is your team, when the players have zero to do with where you live and are interchangeable seems weird to me.

    It must all have to do with vestiges of tribalism which linger deep in the reptilian part of our brains. Some people seem to be more primitive than others in that respect.

    Parent

    I was joking (3.66 / 3) (#145)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:39:43 PM EST
    I need a joke font.  maybe an irony font.
    I so agree with the sports/tribal thing.  now I am conjuring images of middle aged women with a big H painted on their face raving at their computers about imagined slights and injustices.

    Parent
    Was this written with your joke font? (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Spamlet on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 06:03:17 PM EST
    Because of course you realize, having supported Hillary yourself (I remember), that "middle-aged women" were far from being the only people who supported Hillary Clinton for the nomination. And I would bet that middle-aged women are far from being the only people who are sorry today that she did not prevail.

    Your point about people who are stuck in the primaries is valid, but it's a curious choice you made to put down a whole spectrum of alienated Democrats and former Democrats by evoking the stereotype of "middle-aged women" as figures of fun.

    Not so different from what the Obots did for months on end.

    Parent

    If this site has (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 07:17:10 PM EST
    taught us nothing else in the last year or so, it's that middle aged white women aren't figures of fun.

    Parent
    Oh dear (none / 0) (#158)
    by Spamlet on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 07:25:24 PM EST
    Got a cougar deficiency, jondee?

    Parent
    Thought experiment (none / 0) (#159)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:41:20 PM EST
    I so agree with the sports/tribal thing. Now I am conjuring images of urban African Americans wearing Obama T-shirts and raving about imagined slights and injustices.

    See what can happen when you extrapolate from selected demographic and biological characteristics of a political figure and use them to stereotype that figure's supporters?

    Who knows, maybe you think Barack Obama's primary supporters are urban African Americans like him. But even if you do, I bet you wouldn't say so here.

    Parent

    apt (none / 0) (#169)
    by klassicheart on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 02:50:58 AM EST
    Interesting choice of words (none / 0) (#161)
    by jbindc on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:51:54 PM EST
    Especially as it was Obama who was marketed as a brand - even his own social secretary, longtime friend, and close confidante said so.  Axelrod was apopletic that it was put into words (even if true) that he had her fired - can't let the secret out!

    But then again - you are a history revisionist.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:24:45 AM EST
    The double dealing-wheeling dealing crowd from the left known as the progressive block is perpetually being rolled. Lecture away though. Compromising is going swimmingly-ooops

    In 2010 and 2012 you all can opine though that at least you got some cool t shirts out of electing  Democrats that will roll you under a bus because you forgot to actually demand that core principles not be compromised.

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    Wrong conclusion (none / 0) (#126)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:52:25 PM EST
    I supported Hillary and was disappointed she failed to see what was coming.  It was a major failure.  I'm not condoning it.  In fact, her failure to challenge the Democratic party after what they did to her is not something I admire.  She could have started a third party after the election and challenged Obama in a primary in 2012.   But she is too loyal to the Democratic party even when that party violated its own principles.  She clearly was not tough enough. But substantially tougher than Obama. And she was the better candidate and I believe, more likely to have enacted real change.  She had a long record of fighting for people. And the nomination of Obama said a lot about the new Democratic party.  Just as the removal of Howard Dean said something.  That Tim Kaine...what a winner.  Especially when redistricting is coming up.  People get what they deserve. Or they fight back.
    Progressives fought for Obama and lied about Hillary...can't say I have a lot of sympathy.  Hillary is over for me.  But in a different way than you suggest.  And I don't think I'm alone.

    Parent
    holy moley (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:56:24 PM EST
    She could have started a third party after the election and challenged Obama in a primary in 2012.

    k
    Im done

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    Look away (5.00 / 0) (#136)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:05:33 PM EST
    just look away.

    Parent
    Heh, I would vote for Hillary in 2016 (none / 0) (#155)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 06:51:25 PM EST

    I thought before today that maybe Kucinich might be a protest candidate for a few months in 2012....But, noooo, he is a sell-out.....No one is good enough....

    .....This conversation is getting weirder and weirder....


    Parent

    Well that answers the question (none / 0) (#138)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:15:09 PM EST
    of why progressive policy ideas lose.  Challenging the establishment is a non starter, even when double crossed....Dems just suck it up.  BTD has analyzed the situation extremely well.  He is a standout.  And during the primaries, he was analytical not hysterical.  I disagreed with his conclusions but respected his intellectual honesty.  He now agrees that Obama was a mistake. But his intellectual honesty is what differentiates him from others.  And his following has grown because he is one of the few out there who tells the truth, and is analytical.  His prescription for successful bargaining should be obvious.  The fact that it is not embraced by Democratic leadership is troubling.  

    Had Hillary remained a force to be dealt with, given the number of her followers, she might have made a difference on policy.  However, if it was always that she would toe the Democratic line, then all of her bargaining power would be lost. Sad.

    Parent

    Only madmen would demand single payer.... (none / 0) (#39)
    by lambert on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:08:00 PM EST
    And taking it off the table (and denying the policy and its advocates any oxygen) was the "original sin" of this process, and would, I think, feature largely in any "progressive" soul-searching.

    Which is why the soul-searching not likely to happen.

    Congrats on the GG link, BTD, however. Quite right on the bargaining. The implication I would draw is that the bargaining was never about public policy at all..

    The unions got played (none / 0) (#49)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:31:43 PM EST
    The only reason why the unions were able to garner those concessions was because they were willing to, and were perceived as willing to, "kill the bill." They knew Obama wanted this health bill more than they did and that Obama would find a way to accommodate the unions' concerns on the excise tax.

    The unions took the risk of killing the bill and were rewarded with major concessions on their key issue. That is how bargaining works.

    Not so much.  Not hearing the unions trumpeting the outcome of their excise tax meeting up on the hill yesterday.

    Why would they trumpet it? (none / 0) (#175)
    by cawaltz on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 05:35:14 AM EST
    Last time they got concessions, primarily for their own membership, there was a huge brouhaha. Frankly if they managed to wring any more concessions I'd want it on the down low rather than advertising they are getting any kind of special deal.

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#50)
    by bocajeff on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:32:16 PM EST
    Let's consider the fact that progressives pretty much had to change their name from "liberal" in order to survive politically.

    Now, I think the basic problem is that the left is in no way unified because of the nature of the coalitions that actually make up the left. Just reading the comment sections here over the years you see so many people identify themselves as feminist, African-American, Hispanic, gay and/or lesbian, Jewish, union, elderly, etc...that right from the start you are creating divisions and competing interests.

    I seriously think the Democratic Party could start a fight over what color the sky is.

    And why the Republicans are (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 01:37:17 PM EST
    so much better at actually implementing their (misguided, in my view) agenda.

    Think DeLay getting the Schiavo legislation through with barely token opposition from the Democrats in spite of 70% of the counntry opposing that legislation....

    And, it is not just identity politics--those who coalesce around issues are no better.  Liberals/Progressives are so inherently skeptical of authority that it really is always so difficult to get a working consensus.....

    I love looking at the phenomenon in its purest form--The French Revolution....

    Parent

    Will Rodgers (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 01:41:13 PM EST
    I belong to no organized political party -- I am a Democrat.

    Parent
    That's (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:35:40 PM EST
    called identity politics and yes it causes problems because no one is united around ISSUES. All of those would go away if we had a leader who provided an issue framework for everybody to unite around.

    Parent
    Don't think so (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 01:41:17 PM EST
    It could even be worse if the disputes centered around issues--as in 1968.....and, to a lesser extent, 1980.

    The modern Democratic Party was forged by FDR--and what a hodge-podge it has been ever since...

    Parent

    By FDR when almost (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:18:02 PM EST
    half the country was unionized. Since then, the more the Dems have helped their brothers in arms on the other side of the aisle gut the unions in Walmart Nation, the more hodge podgey the Democratic coalition has become. There've always been a lot of lines in the sand, but the big line in Roosevelt's time was between those on the side of Wall St and the bosses and those who could be counted on to take a strong stance on the side of working and middle class people..not necessarily because they wanted to, but because they couldnt afford not to.

    Parent
    What "leader", (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:24:44 PM EST
    that anyone here really wants, is going to be able to raise that $500 mil -- from Big Insurance, Big Healthcare, assorted defense contractors etc -- and still be counted on to "lead" anyone in a more progressive direction?

    Parent
    The reliance on a "leader" (none / 0) (#82)
    by MKS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:34:51 PM EST
    to lead Progressives to the Promised Land would ordinarily concern me--that's more the authoritarian model....

    But I think the "leader" envisioned is self-evident given the context....Same ol', same ol'.

    Parent

    I've always liked what (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:01:25 PM EST
    Debs said way back when (paraphrase):"A people that wants to be led to the Promise Land, can just as easily be led back out again".

    Parent
    They had better speech (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:04:51 PM EST
    writers and media image consultants in those days :)

    Parent
    Leadership is everything (none / 0) (#110)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:18:43 PM EST
    And many of us knew this President didn't have it or had not demonstrated he had it previously.  So marketing won out. Our consumer society responds to marketing, not to ideas.  And with a propaganda press, and now a propaganda blogosphere, our only hope is a leader with big bucks to spend.  That's how the right did it.  Individual billionaires spent money to buy newspapers that lost money.  Now Christian organizations do the same thing.  Controlling the media requires money and an agenda...and progressive billionaires don't apparently care....David Geffen was bidding for a newspaper...but it didn't happen.

    Parent
    it is true (none / 0) (#76)
    by lilburro on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:23:45 PM EST
    that the Democratic Party has multiple interests because it is not almost exclusively White Men.

    That is true.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#120)
    by bocajeff on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:43:32 PM EST
    The vast majority of people I have ever met from all races, creeds, religions and economic backgrounds want the same thing: Education for their kids, food on the table, a roof over their heads, etc...If you unite around issues then you can move forward. Watching the primaries last go around was laughable if it wasn't so important. Identity politics led to this. Blacks went one way, lower and middle class whites went one way, men went one way, women went another, and so on...

    Whites don't have a monopoly on ideas or needs. Republicans have factions also. But, they are more successful representing their issues because they don't get bogged down in identity (except for religion).

    Parent

    It's easy (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by lilburro on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:16:17 PM EST
    to "not get bogged down in identity" when your Party is mostly White Men.

    And what type of identity politics do you think is motivating the Democratic agenda, exactly?  Is cap and trade a "black thing"?  Healthcare is for gays?  Financial regulation a pet project of transsexual Latinos?  

    I am sure you cannot point to a substantial identity-based conflict that is keeping down the Left vis-a-vis healthcare.  What is doing so is political ideology and corporate money - conservadems, insurance pets, capitulating progressives.  That's the Left.

    Parent

    Well I read the summary (none / 0) (#91)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:55:17 PM EST
    And I saw the mandates, the tax, and the pre-existing condition exclusion ONLY for kids.  And I actually got tears in my eyes.

    My GAWD, what have the Democrats done?  The largest tax increase on the poor and middle class that I can remember, and not a single bit of health care (only health insurance) built into that.

    the summary (none / 0) (#99)
    by CST on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:05:53 PM EST
    only represents the changes to the senate bill via reconcilliation.

    The pre-existing condition exclusion for adults is in the senate bill, as of 2014.

    Parent

    thank (none / 0) (#125)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:49:32 PM EST
    you

    Parent
    Oh thank goodness! (none / 0) (#162)
    by jbindc on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:54:20 PM EST
    Only have to wait 4 years for that!  Hope no one with a pre-existing condition is counting on that!

    Parent
    there is (none / 0) (#176)
    by CST on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 09:56:02 AM EST
    an interum provision that sets up a temporary high risk pool in 2010 for people with pre-existing conditions.  That ends in 2014 when the mandates kick in and all insurers are required to cover them.

    Parent
    If George Soros really cared about progressive (none / 0) (#113)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:23:46 PM EST
    politics he would buy a media company. It is baffling that progressives don't understand how to accumulate power.  Or don't care.  

    because liberals (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:28:27 PM EST
    dont respond to that kind of media.  
    it would be a waste of time and money.  we actually have a liberal media company.  its called MSNBC.
    or course that cant be acknowledged by many because of all the Obama supporters there.

    Parent
    what a joke (none / 0) (#129)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:55:57 PM EST
    MSNBC is liberal?  You mean Chris Matthews? Or GE?  That progressive defense contractor?  Progressives have short memories.  MSNBC villified Hillary.  I hardly call that liberal.  They failed to inform.  Rachel came on board during the primaries.  And she was on board with Hillary hate as well.

    Parent
    thank you (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 03:58:35 PM EST
    for making my point

    Parent
    Um, no (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by jbindc on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:56:12 PM EST
    MSNBC is not "liberal" - it was cheerleading and tingling for one candidate over all the rest.  Unless you stretch the definition of "liberal" beyond any recognizable meaning, of course.....

    Parent
    But GE sold NBC (none / 0) (#144)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:38:47 PM EST
    to Comcast recently.

    Parent
    don't know what they means for the future. (none / 0) (#146)
    by klassicheart on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:39:59 PM EST


    liberals (none / 0) (#147)
    by DancingOpossum on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:46:17 PM EST
    don't respond to that kind of media.

    HA HA HA. That's a good one.

    Al Gore (none / 0) (#148)
    by on Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 04:51:07 PM EST
    actually tired this with Current.

    its not doing so well

    Parent

    He needed an American Idol (none / 0) (#170)
    by klassicheart on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 03:03:17 AM EST
    model for news...Must be entertaining first....

    Parent
    yeah (none / 0) (#178)
    by on Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 03:01:57 PM EST
    fer sure

    8-P

    Parent