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What New "Progressive" "Non-Triangulation" Looks Like

From the President's remarks on his historic new off shore drilling policy:

There will be those who strongly disagree with this decision, including those who say we should not open any new areas to drilling. [. . .] On the other side, there are going to be some who argue that we don’t go nearly far enough [. . .] So the answer is not drilling everywhere all the time. But the answer is not, also, for us to ignore the fact that we are going to need vital energy sources to maintain our economic growth and our security. Ultimately, we need to move beyond the tired debates of the left and the right, between business leaders and environmentalists, between those who would claim drilling is a cure all and those who would claim it has no place. Because this issue is just too important to allow our progress to languish while we fight the same old battles over and over again.

(Emphasis supplied.) Compare this to President Bill Clinton's statement on welfare reform:

Clinton said it's far from perfect legislation, but will go a long way toward overcoming "the flaws of the welfare system for the people who are trapped in it." The president told a White House gathering the legislation also should end the scapegoating and politicking that has surrounded the welfare debate for decades.

"When I sign it, we all have to start again," Clinton said. "And this becomes everybody's responsibility. After I sign my name to this bill, welfare will no longer be a political issue. The two parties cannot attack each other over it. Politicians cannot attack poor people over it. There are no encrusted habits, systems and failures that can be laid at the foot of someone else.

"This is not the end of welfare reform, this is the beginning, and we have to all assume responsibility," Clinton added.

In a talk that seemed aimed at liberals who have accused him of betraying poor children, the president said he and Congress can correct what's wrong with this bill, but they could not afford to miss the chance to fix a system that does not reinforce the values of work and family. Clinton.

Said Clinton: "Today, we are taking an historic chance to make welfare what it was meant to be, a second chance, not a way of life. If it doesn't work now, it's everybody's fault: mine, yours and everybody else," Clinton said. "There is no longer a system in the way."

What's different about then and now?

The president vetoed two earlier bills which he said contained too little protection for poor children, but said this one contains $14 billion for child care -- $4 billion more than the present law. "I signed this bill because this is an historic chance, where Republicans and Democrats got together and said we're going to take this historic chance to try to recreate the nation's social bargain with the poor," he said. "We can change what is wrong. We should not have passed this historic opportunity to do what is right."

Clinton urged businesses, non-profit agencies and individuals -- anyone who's ever made a disparaging comment about welfare recipients, he said -- to consider what they can do to help someone move from the welfare rolls to employment rolls.

Speaking for me only

< A Primer On New "Progressive" "Non-Triangulation" | Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread >
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  • Display: Sort:
    reality (5.00 / 21) (#3)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:36:20 PM EST
    NYT:  

    The new plan now grants one of the biggest items on the oil industry's wish list -- access to vast areas of the Outer Continental Shelf for drilling.

    The new triangulation begins first with a payoff to industry interests (PHARMA, for-profit hospitals, Wall Street, etc.).  Then traditional triangulation ensues.

    Yup. That is exactly right. (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:38:13 PM EST
    Can we now say situation FUBO? (none / 0) (#109)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:23:15 PM EST
    This makes me (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by coigue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:54:05 PM EST
    physically ill. This is not what we voted for.

    Parent
    my concern (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:12:08 PM EST
    is that the Administration's lesson from the health care bill was "if we pay off the industries first, we'll get our way."  And that's not OK with me as a strategy.

    Parent
    wait wait (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:32:26 PM EST
    so
    we are NOT the ones we were waiting for.

    damn.

    Parent

    I don't cafe much on this (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Salo on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:21:48 PM EST
    A PO or single payer however would have excuse Obama almost any other policy sin.

    Parent
    Ya well, for me (none / 0) (#178)
    by coigue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 11:59:03 PM EST
    climate is one of my biggest personal issues. He did say he would attack health care, and he also said he would take GHG emissions seriously. Drilling more is not taking it seriously. And drilling so you can use the funds for more renewables is ridiculous...as if the atmosphere cares where the funds go after the oil is in the system.

    Parent
    It's the same speech Obama always (5.00 / 23) (#6)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:44:13 PM EST
    gives, isn't it?  Just take out the references to "drilling" and he could be talking about health reform.

    Obama is process-over-policy; with Clinton, it seems the policy was driving the process.

    This is not a distinction without a difference, in my opinion; it's the reason why Obama is much more likely to fail on policy - to our detriment - and succeed on process - to his benefit - well, at least as long as "progressives" persist in believing that policy and process are interchangeable and mistake victories of process for victories of policy.

    I do not like where this is going, and am at a loss to know how to get it to stop before everything I care about gets this let's-play-nice treatment.

    I am 65 years old (5.00 / 24) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:02:34 PM EST
    I'm now being told that it is better to give away all of the issues I've always cared about and adopt Republican policies that I strongly opposed so that Obama can be reelected in 2012.

    Not an acceptable trade IMO. Like you I have no idea how to stop this.

    Parent

    If Obama is going to implement (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by hookfan on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:24:00 PM EST
    prized GOP policies,why shouldn't he be allowed to suffer a failed presidency? Dennis? Where are you Dennis?

    Parent
    Does this sound familiar (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:32:25 PM EST
    On an oddly defensive conference call, Interior Secretary Ken Salazar and White House environmental policy advisor Carol Browner tried to downplay the decision on offshore drilling as not the most important aspect of what was announced today, not as intrusive into coastal areas as suggested, and not even wholly the President's decision, a remarkable pulling away from a policy they just advanced. link



    Parent
    i agree (none / 0) (#11)
    by coigue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:54:47 PM EST
    With Clinton the policy was driving the process (none / 0) (#12)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:58:59 PM EST
    Is that how we got DADT and finance deregulation?  Triangulation then seems pretty much the same as triangulation now, a political expediency.

    Parent
    As gay military vet (5.00 / 7) (#14)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    let me tell you, DADT was an improvement over what was.  It's not Clinton's fault DADT was forced on him by Democrats like submarine touring Sam Nunn.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:25:15 PM EST
    it was a politically expedient and pragmatic compromise. In the process he moved us to the left and opened the door so that today we coulod be discussing a day were homosexual individuals can openly serve.

    By triangulating in this case, where exactly has Obama moved us even a smidgeon further left? He hasn't. The only thing that has changed is because it is Barack Obama that has proposed this we are supposed to now believe that the idea of drilling along the coastlines is now the position of those on the left and the whole entire paradigm actually moves us right.

    Parent

    Obama is a centrist (none / 0) (#45)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:45:35 PM EST
    much as Clinton was.  Obama doesn't want to be identified with "the position of the left".  He campaigned on expanding drilling.  Progressives shuld be opposing the policy on the merits.

    Consider free trade as another comparison point.  How did Clinton's position on free trade align with the progressive/liberal view?

    Parent

    Obama is to the Right (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by masslib on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:48:26 PM EST
    of Clinton on a number of issues, including womens reproductive health, health care policy, the environment, job creation, the housing crisis and education.  

    Parent
    Which Clinton? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:08:31 PM EST
    I might agree for Hillary.  I always thought, contrary to BTD, that there was more than a dime's worth of difference between Hillary and Obama.  On Bill, the results did not match the inclinations.  He could have done more than he did.

    Parent
    Bill Clinton. (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by masslib on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:22:06 PM EST
    Hillary, yes, obviously.  But I was talking about Bill.  And, it's not about what more he could have done.  It's about the policies he proposed...to the Left of Obama.  I have yet to hear Obama as President take one stand to the Left of Bill Clinton.

    Parent
    Results matter (none / 0) (#89)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:52:44 PM EST
    And times (particularly the economy) are very different.

    Foreign policy now seems about the same as Clinton.

    Trade policy now is about the same as Clinton.

    Tax policy now is similar to Clinton.

    On Health Care, Clintn did not get anything despite the good plan.

    Clinton could have used the good economic times to attack the growing econmic inequality.  Instead we got welfare reform.

    Very little was done about clean energy.

    The incarceration rate grew unchecked during Bill Clinton's presidency.

    I am/was a Bill Clinton supporter but there were big disappointments then as now.  The thing to do is to keep wrking for your issues.

    Parent

    No do-overs on the environment (5.00 / 7) (#98)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:07:35 PM EST
    Once something has been destroyed, it takes generations to replace it....

    The decision on oil drilling, and the particularly shocking decision to drill in the Arctic, is a huge loss TODAY.

    So, sure live to fight another day....But that fight will be over even more degraded oceans....

    Parent

    You ate wrong there (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Salo on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:24:11 PM EST
    The Clinton years were the only years since the 60s that we've ever seen real wage increases for the bottom 1/3.

    Parent
    Unfortunately (none / 0) (#131)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:58:56 PM EST
    The top grew much faster so the gap widened.  The trend started in the 80's and has continued through the 2000s.

    Parent
    Bill was very good on the environment (5.00 / 7) (#88)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:51:11 PM EST
    He named Bruce Babbit as Interior Secretary.  Babbit was perhaps the best Interior Secretary ever.  He halted and reversed all kinds of bad policies here in the West.  His signature issue was re-introducing wolves to the lower 48.

    Many wanted Babbit for the Supreme Court but the Sierra Club and others told Bill, no way, they wanted Babbit for the Interior--it was that important.  And Bill heeded their advice.

    And Bill designated all kinds of federal land in the West that had been subject to development as National Monuments.  He did this unilaterally, with a Republican Congress breathing down his neck, and the hue and cry from them was prolonged.  But he did it anyway.....Great legacy....those lands are protected pretty much forever.

    Parent

    The problem with the drilling (5.00 / 12) (#50)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:53:08 PM EST
    decision is that it is just gratuitous.  He is changing a settled policy--moving it to the right--and getting nothing in return.

    And, during the campaign he may have talked about more drilling off the East Coast, but the Arctic drilling is news to me....

    Bad policy decision.  Bad politics.  Bad for the oceans....Bad all the way around.  

    Parent

    Incorrect (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:00:14 PM EST
    He is changing a settled policy--moving it to the right--and getting nothing in return.

    The 20 years of "settled policy" was changed under BushCo in 2008, and that was with a democratic congress.

    Parent

    This undercuts Boxer (none / 0) (#79)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:42:52 PM EST
    She is the chair of the Environmental Committee in the Senate....

    But she is currently behind her likely Republican opponent in this Fall's election....Ordinarily, she would be out there chopping up this nonsensical policy....but she has less room to manuever now.....

    DiFi has been strong on the environment, so maybe she could help....

    But, I suppose, the drilling plan exempts California, so both may sit out the fight.....

    I do no like this....

    Parent

    exempting california (none / 0) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:44:51 PM EST
    was not an accident

    Parent
    Neither Do I (none / 0) (#82)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:45:06 PM EST
    I do no like this....


    Parent
    I dont like the policy (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:46:23 PM EST
    but I am enjoying the heck out of the response.

    Parent
    Obama campaigned AGAINST (5.00 / 7) (#52)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:55:23 PM EST
    lifting the moratorium on offshore drilling, ridiculed McCain on this issue many times, and talked about the potential of offshore drilling to harm the environment. Here is one link to a video showing it. That is not the only time he said it during the campaign.

    Parent
    Nuance (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:08:48 PM EST
    Obama left himself an out.  He said he was willing to compromise.  Link

    However, he went on to say that if offshore oil drilling could be shown to have a beneficial effect on reducing oil prices in the short term, he would not be opposed to it. And in future statements he expressed that he is willing to compromise on offshore drilling if it is part of a larger package which supports renewable energy.

    If we have a plan on the table that I think meets the goals that America has to set, and there are some things in there that I don't like ... I would consider it because that's the nature of how we govern in a democracy.

    I remain skeptical of some of the drilling provisions [in the so-called "Gang of Ten" bill], but I will give them [the bill's drafters] credit that the way they crafted the drilling provisions are about as careful and responsible as you might expect for a drilling agenda.




    Parent
    Yes, Manuel. (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:37:49 PM EST
    However, he began his campaign stating that he was against it and mocking those who claimed it could do anything to solve energy problems. And he said this many times in front of environmentally-friendly audiences. He did say otherwise later, as you say. So I was replying to this statement:

    He campaigned on expanding drilling.

    In any case, I guess he'll now have to take back the mocking of McCain and Bush for saying that offshore drilling had anything to do with energy problems, since he is now claiming that it does.

    Parent

    Yep. As always. Obama covers all bets. It's how (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by kempis on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:16:38 PM EST
    ...he was a great anti-DLC progressive to some while being a great pragmatic centrist to others, how he appealed to DFHs and disillusioned Republicans in 08. He speaks in so many different voices that he's a one-man Tower of Babel. Pore over his remarks from 08 long enough and you're bound to find a statement that supports your view on an issue--whatever that view may be.

    Like Anne says, he has no core principles--other than winning elections.

    Parent

    oh my god (3.66 / 3) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:33:50 PM EST
    he is reneging on a campaign promise.

    where is my fainting couch?

    Parent

    I thought you were the King of (5.00 / 6) (#84)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:47:38 PM EST
    Correcting Misinformation? I replied to a comment that incorrectly stated that Obama campaigned on the opposite of what he did campaign on.

    where is my a*sehole button?

    Parent

    that would be (none / 0) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:49:06 PM EST
    a rhetorical question Im thinkin

    Parent
    No. (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:18:08 PM EST
    That was me saying that you behave like a rude, juvenile, a*sehole here. Whether it's directed at me or anyone else, it's tedious and stupid and, as Jeralyn said before, it ruins the discourse for everyone. So maybe you might consider stopping it.

    Parent
    He won't consider it because (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:24:37 PM EST
    it's just too much fun being a troll.

    Parent
    I have not hurled a (none / 0) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:46:50 PM EST
    single epaulet.
    but I am having fun.

    Parent
    Me too. But it's always easier .... (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:24:13 PM EST
    ... when people refuse to throw around epaulets.

    Parent
    ahhh (none / 0) (#124)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:44:11 PM EST
    all this talk about a$$holes and Foxholes is making me tense.
    you to?

    Parent
    and dont (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:08:30 PM EST
    call me "button"

    Parent
    You're right (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:59:24 PM EST
    I guess by now, we should only be shocked when he actually keeps a campaign promise.

    Parent
    Commondreams has a (none / 0) (#116)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:26:24 PM EST
    good post on Obama's ever changing position on off shore drilliing in chronological order. link

    Parent
    so Dr Molly (2.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:29:43 PM EST
    was wrong.  this is hard to take.
    I think I need to leave early.

    Parent
    Dr. Molly was not (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:38:13 PM EST
    wrong about Obama campaigning against offshore drilling in June 2008 as I'm sure you would agree if you watched the video. Obama in June 2008.

    In June 2008, then-Sen. Obama told reporters in Jacksonville, Florida, "when I'm president, I intend to keep in place the moratorium here in Florida and around the country that prevents oil companies from drilling off Florida's coasts. That's how we can protect our coastline and still make the investments that will reduce our dependence on foreign oil and bring down gas prices for good."


    Parent
    No CH, Dr. Molly wasn't "wrong". (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:38:57 PM EST
    And by all means, "leave early", and often.

    Parent
    so she/he was NOT wrong. (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:42:15 PM EST
    this is even harder to take.
    may need to leave even earlier.


    Parent
    Now, you're just teasing us. (none / 0) (#129)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:52:18 PM EST
    Tomorrow, try to remember that these threads are not your own personal toilet to pee and poop in.

    Toodle-ooo...

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:55:30 PM EST
    It is communal toilet...

    Parent
    euuu (none / 0) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:59:57 PM EST
    and on that happy image I think I have to work having used up my allotted comments for the day.

    carry on.

    Parent

    False hope again! (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:11:31 PM EST
    So, he wasn't campaigning in (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:39:38 PM EST
    June of 2008?

    Must have been some stand-in prankster in that video clip, then, huh?

    Timeline in MOBlue's link references it also.

    Parent

    No Capt., DrMolly wasn't wrong (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:05:06 PM EST
    Obama was against offshore drilling when he needed the environmentalist vote, and for offshore drilling after he no longer needed it.

    Seems to be his MO, if you've been following.

    Parent

    good find--thank you n/t (none / 0) (#154)
    by kempis on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:17:24 PM EST
    Will the left get anything? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:49:58 PM EST
    Really, for me, the question is whether the left will get anything from Obama.  

    Certainly, this drilling doesn't seem to be it.

    On the biggest ticket item, is HCR even marginal movement leftward?  I don't think so, especially from my vantage point of being female.  But I guess only time will tell since HCR is an untested theory at this point.

    Leaving aside the debate over HCR, what leftward policies has Obama enacted?

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#53)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:55:33 PM EST
    The left got all those great Tshirts and commemorative pins. Do those count? ;)

    Parent
    To be fair....minimum wage? (none / 0) (#56)
    by oldpro on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:58:12 PM EST
    And Lilly Ledbetter's law?

    Of course both came from the congress...not the white house.

    Parent

    Ledbetter was not a move to the left (5.00 / 6) (#59)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:04:38 PM EST
    Ledbetter was a move back from the right.  It did not move anti-discrimination law leftward, it was a restoration of a statute of limitation.

    Parent
    Minimum wage (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:06:49 PM EST
    was before Obama. He doesn't get the blame or credit for it. The Democratic Congress does. Lily Ledbetter is negated by his executive order. Heck, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Olympia Snowe and Collins get more credit for LedBetter in my opinion, they actually went against their party to get it into law.

    Parent
    Just the bare minimum (none / 0) (#68)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:20:27 PM EST
    The left should expect no more than the bare minimum to keep them in the Demcratic coalition.  The only way to escape this is to elect (and develop) better candidates.

    Parent
    We will be "discussing the day" (none / 0) (#48)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:50:04 PM EST
    when gay women and men can serve openly in the military for a good while longer, despite talk of fierce advocacy and mor "humane" administration of DADT.  As reported in Americablog (March 30, 20l0) the DOJ is aggressively defending DADT in Log Cabin Republicans v Robert Gates, Dist. Court for Central Dist. of CA (this is a case where some Republicans do not have a good idea). DOJ asked for summary judgment in order to throw the case out, and the brief does not even finesse legal arguments around the idea that "we must do this".  The brief even trots out the old barrack and showers argument as well as the discredited testimony of General Colin Powell in 1993 (not even noting that Powell has, 17 years later, changed his tune).  On the plus side, they did not do as they did in defending DOMA, insert issues of pedophilia and incest  so maybe this is progress, after all.

    Parent
    DADT was a compromise (5.00 / 13) (#18)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:02:57 PM EST
    He started from a point where he wanted to open up the military to homosexuals. DADT was as far as he was able to get. From where I am sitting I don't see where Obama is getting a single concession for Republican ideas. He seems to start from the moderate Republican position and negotiate us into Bush territory. Progressives will soon get to chant "drill baby drill" just like the Palin supporters did. Isn't that grand?

    Parent
    Obama has never started with (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:10:35 PM EST
    the most progressive policy - except in the case of the NY Trials for detainees - but it only took a short while before he decided to pivot and run.

    Parent
    That's my point (5.00 / 6) (#29)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:21:00 PM EST
    With Bill Clinton the starting point was progressive or at least portions of things he did were done in such a way to protect the progressive(which used to be liberal) base. Obama has done no such thing. He's gone out of his way to pee all over the base and made moderate right his starting point.

    Parent
    What about financial deregulation? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Manuel on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:24:09 PM EST
    How did that protect the base?

    Parent
    I personally think (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:52:53 PM EST
    NAFTA and deregulation did not work out as initially he thought they would. He calculated optimistically and didn't take into account businesses drive for profit. My opinion is just conjecture though.

    I know that deregulating electricity has turned out to be a disaster here in VA. It was supposed to open up the market. It hasn't. We still have ONE option.

    Parent

    Yes and I was affirming your point nt (none / 0) (#44)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:44:06 PM EST
    She meant Hillary Clinton not Bill (none / 0) (#164)
    by debcoop on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:43:42 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton was more interested in policy change and success than process change and success.

    Process to easily is about show and not substance.

    Anne is most right focus on policy helps people, focus on process helps the politician proposing it.

    Parent

    Atlanta Braves (none / 0) (#58)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:02:05 PM EST
    Obama might end up being Dan Marino:  win after win after win but no Superbowl.

    I like to envision mass withdrawal of support from Obama in 2012 while he plaintively campaigns on all his policy "wins".  Won't happen, but it's fun to think about.  :)

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#71)
    by ks on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:29:17 PM EST
    Well to be fair winning the Presidency is at least equal to winning the SB. : )  Also, let's give Marino some love.  He was an insanely talented QB over a long period of time who just didn't have the right team at the right time.  ObI can't think of a particular name right now but, Oama reminds me of a hoshot player who rises to the top quickly and you think he's could be good for a long time and then he just sort of peters out and falls off.

    Parent
    Tony Mandarich (none / 0) (#78)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:42:11 PM EST
    Though without the 'roids.

    Parent
    Clinton compromised because (none / 0) (#181)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 09:42:30 AM EST
    he had to in most cases to stop even worse legislation happening.  After 1994, democrats were the minority.
    Obama compromises even though he doesn't have to because he likes crappy republican policy and wants to get reelected.
    Things where pretty good under Clinton.  Things are still amazingly bush-like under Obama.  He goes right just because of his self image as someone who brings both sides together.

    Parent
    Absolutely no need to (5.00 / 13) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:49:38 PM EST
    fight the same old battles over and over again.

    The strategy of simply adopting all of the Republicans policies is a definite winner if you support those policies. Of course, the question remains why vote Democratic if you support Republican policies.

    Why indeed? (5.00 / 5) (#20)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:04:11 PM EST
    If you are going to be stuck with Republican policy, they might as well get the credit/blame for it.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    He hasn't convinced me about why LIBERAL policies can't win.....for a change....

    Parent
    They can't win (5.00 / 10) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:10:13 PM EST
    because the president doesn't support them. Jeopardize millions in corporate cash. No way.

    Parent
    Here is a response from (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:52:23 PM EST
    the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, an organization that has been trying to battle all of the pollution-related problems along the eastern shore, and related problems such as the demise of oyster and crab populations:

    LINK

    The oceans are much (5.00 / 8) (#23)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:07:31 PM EST
    more fragile than many believe.....

    One example:  If the Earth were on orange, and you just wiped the moisture off the orange, you would have wiped all the oceans off the Earth....

    As a diver, you rarely go below 100 feet--some the new divers get all macho and want to go really deep; but that wears out fast because there is not that much to see below 100 feet (where it gets darker).....

    What we think of as "sea-life" really only resides in the first 100 feet or so of the surface....The oceans are not infinite--and are what makes our planet unique.

    We have tremendous loss of sea life--all over the planet.  We have a floating pile of junk and plastic in the Pacific Ocean that is larger than many states.....And yet we think we can constantly use the ocean as a toilet and befoul the source of all life on this planet with impunity....

    Parent

    Caring about the environment (5.00 / 10) (#30)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:22:09 PM EST
    is so passe now, an anachronism, just like health care, abortion rights, government helping the people, etc.

    I heard an NPR interview with Stewart Udall the other day - it was amazing to hear about the creation of all the national parks and protected wilderness spaces during that time. When asked how all of that could happen then but not now, he said there was a huge public outcry during that time for pride in our wilderness heritage and stewardship of our environment. Can you even imagine that now? I can't. People are ready and willing to destroy it all for short-term gain. Breaks my heart.


    Parent

    Indeed, environmentalists (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:31:04 PM EST
    seem ever-doomed to witness failure.....I tend to assume the worst....and be pleasantly surprised when something turns out well....

    There was no need to re-do the policy on oil drilling.  It is just gratuitous....

    Parent

    I worked for EPA (3.00 / 2) (#148)
    by christinep on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:56:01 PM EST
    for 27 years. While there are many, many stories and lessons to relate (at a later time, perhaps) I would only say: To push on for the environment in the reality of government life and our legal system, it cannot be all or nothing. It is the tale of winning some and losing some...and getting up again. The interest groups and individual concerns are numerous, multi-layered, complex. There is the environmental direction; there are zig-zag steps along the way. I truly believe that incrementalism--by inches and feet, consolidating over the years--is key.

    Parent
    Do you not see this as going (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:18:28 PM EST
    backwards?  A ban on offshore drilling was one victory that had survived even during the Republican Rule of 2000-2006....And we change this policy now--for what?

    Even John McCain was against drilling in ANWR....So, this policy seems like something that John McCain would be fine with (or maybe not now that he has a primary fight, but something he would have been fine with had he won the Presidential election.)

    Republicans in California were against drilling offshore here.....Ahnold appears greener than Obama....

    Parent

    Somehow I do not see (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:18:55 PM EST
    opening up the coast line for offshore drilling is  "incrementalism--by inches and feet" for anything other than more offshore drilling.

    Parent
    It is frankly disappointments (none / 0) (#158)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:22:36 PM EST
    like this that have prevented me from becoming more involved in environmental issues....

    Yes, I expect setbacks--but from a Democratic President?

    Parent

    Lets take a deep breath (3.00 / 2) (#167)
    by christinep on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:29:33 PM EST
    Thankfully, we still can. I admit to a "what the" moment when first hearing about opening the Atlantic Coast. Two things: (1) It's often said--here and elsewhere--that it is the details that count. Based on what has been leading to this, I'd like to wait a few days and find out a bit more. Among other things, I would talk to old friends still at the Agency, etc. to get their take. (2) While the Republicans' developed approach to all things Environment & EPA was hard to take when you were in the middle of regulatory proposals or enforcement initiatives--especially the attempted destruction by the Reagan boys and girls under Administrator Gorsuch (see Season of Spoils for Jonathan Lash' recap), some of the earlier balancing acts (albeit much more benign) began under President Carter. Recognize tho that the balance--then known as the "bubble approach" and now a version presented in the broader "cap & trade"--represented a compromise that staved off a full industrial assault that likely would have overwhelmed the growing Agency in the late '70s. So...I guess that my assumption is that there is a trade-off here; and, before reaching a firm conclusion, I'd like to know what such trade-off involves. Yes, further info here is definitely called for.

    Parent
    And former EPA head (none / 0) (#162)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:29:08 PM EST
    under Clinton, Carol Browner, appears involved in this turkey as the head Environmental liason or Energy Czar, or whatever you call it...

    Parent
    Carol Browner (3.00 / 2) (#168)
    by christinep on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:36:47 PM EST
    By anyone's description, former Administrator Browner was and is an environmentalist. All the more reason to reserve final judgement on the announcement for just a bit...until we see the details.

    Parent
    I hope you are right (none / 0) (#172)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:55:52 PM EST
    about the details....

    But the damage has been done.  Most people will view this on a big picture basis, and this proposal accepts the idea that more drilling is necessary and will be helpful--unraveling decades of work.

    Do we have to get Jean-Michel Cousteau to make a visit to the White House?  Good gawd, even George W. Bush paid attention to Jean Michel and designated a huge swath next to the Hawaiian Islands as a sanctuary....How about having Al Gore make a visit too?  He was a SCUBA diver....For Pete's sake, Obama is from Hawaii and knows better than this....

    I can't see any scenario where I would not vehemently oppose the energy bill that is being proposed.....

    Parent

    Personal interactions (none / 0) (#173)
    by christinep on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 07:05:57 PM EST
    FYI. Carol Browner was chief of staff for then-Senator Al Gore. He has always been viewed as her prime political supporter and close friend of like environmental mind. (I too fervently hope that your fears about the fragile areas of the Pacific will never be effected.)  

    Parent
    she didn't do this under Clinton (none / 0) (#182)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 09:45:59 AM EST
    she is doing it under Obama.  Who you work for and who you advise makes a difference.  This is Obama's work, he owns it.

    Parent
    I can imagine it (5.00 / 6) (#40)
    by CST on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:36:56 PM EST
    like gay rights, I actually think the environment is an issue that will only gain more steam in the next 10 to 20 years, not less.  It's one of those things that young people just see differently.

    The infuriating thing to me has been the last decade or so where people have seemed to take huge steps backwards in science.  I mean, I remember reading about the "monkey trial" in h.s. and thinking how ubsurd it was that they would even put that on trial.  And here we are how many years later talking about intellegent design and how most people in this country do not believe in evolution or climate change, or that humans can have any impact on the earth.  USE YOUR EYES people.  You can see it for yourself.

    I agree completely with what you said downthread.  It's not like these competing left/right ideas have equal merit.  There's actual SCIENCE and FACTS at play here.  Wrong people are still wrong, even if there are a lot of them (see Iraq).

    Parent

    I genuinely admire your optimism, CST! (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:39:49 PM EST
    I mean that sincerely. When I read your comments, I feel old and cynical!

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by CST on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:19:40 PM EST
    when it comes to the environment there's really only two choices as I see it.  You are either optimistic that humans will change enough to adapt and mitigate things.  Or you accept the fact that we are going to destroy what's left of the earth.

    I really just can't accept that.

    Plus, there are areas where I do see actual progress as well.  The whole conversation in the engineering world has changed.  And it has filtered through to just about every sector - whether it's mechanical, civil, electrical, materials, etc...  it is now a huge part of the conversation in every single development project.  I guess I just have faith that humans will eventually figure out how to not just mitigate, but actually fix existing issues.  I mean, I went to college in Pittsburgh, and thanks to the clean air act, I didn't have to bring a change of clothes to class.  That's progress of a sort.  

    While I was there, I also met some really smart people who care a lot about this and spend all their time thinking up ways to solve these problems.  The other side may have the votes, but we've still got the brains.

    Parent

    Thanks for your testimony (none / 0) (#171)
    by christinep on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:51:35 PM EST
    about the Clean Air Act, CST. I am not a pollyanna about the environment either. But, there are many documents and anecdotes showing the positive changes in our environment as a result of major environmental legislation. One of my favorite anecdotes came from an EPA colleague, who started his environmental career as a chemist/engineer who was assigned from the R.V Chicago office to the Cuyahoga River in Ohio. That river, of course, gained infamy when it began to burn in the '60s; now, even more important and with the Clean Water Act that followed that travesty, the river is fishable/swimmable, I am told. To supplement all this, I suspect that very positive results will be reported in view of the wave of environmental awareness and practice we have all witnessed in the past two decades. (Yep, I tend to see the glass half-full...with cleaner water.)

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#174)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 07:49:06 PM EST
    The Hudson used to be called the clean ship port, because all one had to do is dock a boat for a couple of days in the Hudson and it would lose all the mollusks and grime due to the toxic water.

    Now the water is clean, fishing and swimming, but mollusks have appeared and have been eating the wooden pylons under the piers and are destroying them...  

    Solution: they took down most of the piers.

    Parent

    Ah, the law of unintended consequences (none / 0) (#176)
    by christinep on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 08:26:38 PM EST
    Twice the size of Texas (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:05:21 PM EST
    The "garbage patch" in the Pacific Ocean is twice the size of Texas.

    Link.

    His 1999 study showed that there was 6 times more plastic in this part of the ocean than the zooplankton that feeds ocean life.[3] In 2002, a later study showed that even off the coast of California, plastic outweighed zooplankton by a factor of 2.5. These numbers were significantly higher than expected, and shocked many oceanographers.

    As on all things on the environment, it is worse that originally thought.

    And, I was concerned last month about global warming chasing the sea lions north from Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco.

    Parent

    I'm going to join the end-timers (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:06:58 PM EST
    Then I won't have to think about any of this.

    Parent
    I was about to send you a link (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:14:41 PM EST
    to the latest studies on the killing off of coral reefs, but I believe we've had enough depression for one day.

    Plus, I don't want Emma to join the Rapture Movement.

    Parent

    heh (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:18:58 PM EST
    I can't actually join the end-timers.  I hear you can't take your pets when you're raptured as they have no souls.  Or something.  That's too crazy for me!

    Parent
    Yes, thank you, I could (none / 0) (#72)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:30:39 PM EST
    do without more bad news on coral reefs...

    Parent
    ocean acidification (none / 0) (#179)
    by coigue on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 12:04:02 AM EST
    from increased CO2 irregardless of the atmosphere is also threatening the food chain, since so many zoo plankton grow up to have CaCo3 shells that do not develop right  under acid conditions. It's very scary. And Obama is screwing it up. He should have tackled climate change first as part of a huge jobs bill.

    Parent
    As someone who lives in Maryland, (5.00 / 6) (#39)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:35:31 PM EST
    and whose husband is weekend fisherman, who participates in the annual stocking of the local streams and rivers, I'm pretty sure this drilling thing has landed with a big thud and a lot of WTF? for a considerable portion of the MD population.

    As the CBF said in your link:

    Big Oil gets the bucks while citizens get the bill.

    More change we can believe in, eh?

    Parent

    Lot in common. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:43:23 PM EST
    with our spouses...

    Trout/flyfishing season is here!

    Parent

    Wonder if the residents on the east (none / 0) (#139)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:14:23 PM EST
    coast will be as vocal in protest as they are against the wind farms proposed for off the coast of Massachusetts.

    Parent
    Uh, which residents? (none / 0) (#145)
    by masslib on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:38:21 PM EST
    Only the compound set of the Vineyard and the Cape oppose Cape wind.

    Parent
    Good guess.... (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:42:10 PM EST
    yep, those residents on the east coast.

    Parent
    And I love how they point this out: (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:29:50 PM EST
    Last year, President Obama identified the Chesapeake Bay as one of this nation's priority waters that need immediate restoration.


    Parent
    So, since Obama is triangulating on the left with (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Buckeye on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:59:32 PM EST
    Drill Baby Drill and nationalizing Romneycare, should liberals triangulate on Obama and run on Repeal and Replace?

    What liberals? (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Emma on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:01:23 PM EST
    Really, what Democrat in Congress do you think is going to run against Obama?  Are you envisioning primary challenges?

    Parent
    Couldn't it be a challenger outside Congress? (none / 0) (#165)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:21:24 PM EST
    Dunno who though. And s/he would only have a good shot at it if the end of the world as we've known it has ceased to be :-(

    Parent
    Given how fast and loose they are (none / 0) (#19)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:03:14 PM EST
    playing with the base, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some replace efforts mount as we go forward.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#183)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 09:48:05 AM EST
    and moderates too.  there are many moderate democrats who may not pass the liberal smell test but are loyal advocates for traditional democratic party ideas.  They too have been disenfranchised.

    Parent
    But Clinton was right. (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by masslib on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:15:12 PM EST
    For Democrats, welfare was a campaign issue they were hammered on, and it ceased to exist after that bill.  But this "we fight the same old battles over and over again.".  I don't think Democrats have lost votes being pro-environment for the past few election cycles at least.  Obama really seems to dislike the fact that we live in a Republic, where Democrats and Republicans actually, like, have different positions on issues.

    "Tired debates on the left (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:25:21 PM EST
    and the right".   Arguments of equal merit.,, both bad--so let's take the good center.  The reasonable center will be attentive to the oil business while being considerate of the environmentalists, being careful to place wells 125 miles out in the Gulf, for example, so as to be out of sight and out of mind.  Moreover, the proposal is at interplay with the cost-cutting measures of health care reform--as spills make the beaches unavailable, there will be a reduction in skin cancers, and, hence, a source for those health care "savings."

    I am so tired of that argument (5.00 / 15) (#36)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:28:32 PM EST
    "arguments of equal merit", "left and right", etc - it smacks of "teach the controversy" in biology class. Not all arguments have equal merit.

    Parent
    It even has a name in logic: (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:54:42 PM EST
    the Golden Mean Fallacy.

    Parent
    "Golden Mean Fallacy" (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:24:09 PM EST
    Yes, in statistics we were given the example--if you put one hand in the fire and the other on a cake of ice, you will be statistically comfortable.   A centrist position.

    Parent
    Oooh, thanks. The Golden Mean. I like it. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:56:56 PM EST
    I think Obama does, too, (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:12:44 PM EST
    only he's conflating it into, "Hey, I guess this means I really am golden!"

    [Sorry, I couldn't help myself.]

    Parent

    Obama's 'pragmatism' = The GOLDEN MEAN FALLACY! (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:29:18 PM EST
    Here's the fast and dirty Wiki synopsis, Golden Mean Fallacy [aka the false compromise fallacy]:
    An individual demonstrating the false compromise fallacy implies that the positions being considered represent extremes of a continuum of opinions, and that such extremes are always wrong, and the middle ground is always correct...

    Additionally, the middle ground fallacy allows any position to be invalidated...all one must do is present yet another, radically opposed position, and the middle-ground compromise will be forced closer to that position.  

    *Example: "Some would say that arsenic is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet, but others claim it is a toxic and dangerous substance. The truth is somewhere in between..."

    Doesn't that just describe Obama to a T. I wonder why none of his critics on the left have used the Golden Mean Fallacy argument to expose the bogosity of his so-called pragmatism.

    Parent

    I guess I thought everyone knew this (none / 0) (#170)
    by andgarden on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:49:48 PM EST
    Stupid assumption on my part.

    Everyone should be required to study informal fallacies in high school. Or, you know, at least in college. It turns the editorial page into mush most of the time, though.

    Parent

    High school ain't what it used to be, but then (none / 0) (#175)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 08:06:45 PM EST
    neither is college - yikes.

    Anyhoo, you hit the nail squarely on the head when you used the Golden Mean Fallacy to describe Obama's tendency to suggest that, en masse, the right and left are equally extreme and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    It appears Obama does not stand with Colbert in believing that the truth and the "facts have a liberal bias".

    Parent

    Why whatever do you mean (none / 0) (#169)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:40:07 PM EST
    I mean so what if one side has scientific evidence to support their position- ;)

    It shouldn't have anymore bearing then if you just randomly come up with something, pick a catchy chant and speak of it passionately(tongue firmly in cheek).

    It all evens out.

    Parent

    Hey, Obama is the guy who believes (5.00 / 7) (#35)
    by shoephone on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:26:11 PM EST
    there is such a thing as "clean coal" too.

    What a disaster this is. I grew up in California during the years when Democrats were fighting to save our coastlines, not destroy them.

    Guess it's all about the PPUS now. I'm thoroughly disgusted.

    This is getting tedious. (5.00 / 14) (#43)
    by Kimberley on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:43:39 PM EST
    I could almost forgive his inability to leave his personal comfort zone if this country was lumbering along with two functional parties. But it isn't.

    Lock-step Republicans have taken leave of their senses and abandoned themselves entirely to Bedlam-style meltdown. It discredits Obama to lay this country's ethos and function at their feet, attempting to please them.

    And I'm beginning to have grave doubts about his much vaunted intelligence too, if he honestly judges the demands placed on this polity by the contemporary political left and right as being similarly inappropriate for this country's welfare.

    I think it's pretty clear that the calculation has been made that the polity's fear will continue to drive majority support for Democrats while they rake in corporate cash rather than attempt to set the country on a wiser path. It may prove true. But the resentments will continue to grow and the pernicious effects of a jaded, over-strained public will continue to get more dangerous to the long-term health of this country.

    In this context, it becomes clear that the Democratic Party has a lot to be ashamed of right now.

    I know you are not interested (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Mike Pridmore on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:50:13 PM EST
    much in whether politicians break their campaign promises.  But even those who resigned in protest over welfare reform had to admit "Governor Clinton campaigned in 1992 on the promise to "end welfare as we know it" and the companion phrase "Two years and you're off."

    welfare needed reforming (none / 0) (#186)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 02:15:03 PM EST
    and Clinton backed it up with job growth.  Welfare to work actually did improve people's lives.  In addition, just because you could not just stay on welfare forever with no plan to get off, does mean you can not go back and get help when you need it.
    If people resigned in protest over welfare reform, /bless them, I hope they found a nice cushy job they were better suited to.

    Parent
    absolutely (none / 0) (#189)
    by Mike Pridmore on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 08:26:53 PM EST
    Bill gave a great explanation here:

    link

    Parent

    If someone ran for President on what (5.00 / 11) (#93)
    by Buckeye on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:00:22 PM EST
    Obama has done with a near 80 seat Democratic vote lead in the house and a filibuster proof senate (most of the time), his/her platform would be:

    1.  Iraq - maintain the Bush policy: timetables, strategy, headcount, etc.

    2.  Afghanistan - triple the troop count and escalate the war in the name of domestic security.

    3.  National security - ensure a near seamless continuity between the Bush policy over the last 4-5 year of his Presidency regarding preventive detention, surveillance, etc.

    4.  Nationalize Romneycare only adding restrictive abortion language handing the pro-choice movement it biggest defeat in 35 years.

    5.  Open up 50% of America's shoreline to offshore drilling.

    6.  Bail out banks without a nationalized recap as Krugman suggested.  And please...DO NOT under any circumstances interfere with their bonuses.

    7.  Stimulus plan that was too small (incremental) with 40% if it being tax cuts.

    I think that person could win the Republican nomination.

    And I am serious.  Unless Obama faces a primary challenger (which will not happen), the Republican party is going to find it difficult to draw contrast between them and Obama.  The student loan reforms in the recon package are the only liberal policies he pushed for (Regan was more liberal than that).  Sotomoyer??? Perhaps Republicans can run against her (but even she was originally nominated to the court by republicans).

    I am not even sure why the republicans would even run against Obama?

    They'll run against him (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 10:47:31 PM EST
    because they're insane and doing so drives the debate further right then it already is. It's darn depressing knowing my choices are going to be Republican and psuedo Republican again.

    Parent
    Argh...Booman again. (5.00 / 8) (#95)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:01:23 PM EST
    And you made me look, so I could get the full flavor and be sitting here reaching for a piece of gum to get rid of the taste.

    I guess my question for Booman, and the one I always have for Obama, is: if you believe in something, why are you willing to give pieces of it away knowing - knowing - that you are going to get nothing in return?

    The answer is getting clearer for me.

    First, I don't think there is anything Obama really believes in; have we seen any indication of anything he has refused to budge on?  

    Second, the triangulation is not about getting the policy he wants, it's about getting the win he wants.

    Third, he's going for legacy again - he wants to lay claim to being the first - and probably, last - president to pass "comprehensive" climate change legislation, even if it is neither comprehensive nor likely to positively affect climate change: the policy is not the important part.

    Now, Booman is hopeless, but I suppose he is as good a barometer of where the so-called progressives are as anyone other than Chris Bowers.

    Honestly, reading these guys makes me want to shake both of them and ask when they decided their own beliefs and principles were worth chucking in favor of supporting someone with neither.


    Not even California is off limits (5.00 / 6) (#111)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:24:20 PM EST
    This article points out the loophole on California:

    Obama will not issue an executive order banning drilling off the West Coast or in U.S. Northeast waters, but those areas won't be considered in the next five-year drilling plan, the official said.

    That will still allow future presidents, if they chose, to develop energy resources in those offshore areas, the official said.

    So, the grand compromise won't include statutory language protecting any coast?


    Obama has to save some give aways (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:30:38 PM EST
    for his second term in office.

    Parent
    WTF? (none / 0) (#166)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 06:23:29 PM EST
    MSNBC changed their article to delete the above quote....I did not make it up.....

    Parent
    I first understood (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by TomP on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:43:16 PM EST
    Obama's rhetorical triangulation from a diary you did on dkos back around November of December 2006.

    The rhetoric is consistent with the actions.

    This is the content of change and hope.

    Slightly to the left of Clinton... (3.00 / 2) (#92)
    by mike in dc on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:58:46 PM EST
    ...in actual policy implementation, was my expectation/hope.  I think he's fallen short in some ways, exceeded the mark in others, has met expectations on some things and on balance, the jury is still out, because he's less than 1/3 of the way through his first term.  
    We probably need a "wish list" or "check list" to compare against.  As I said elsewhere, I know we've gotten more than 1/32 of a loaf(1 slice of bread) and less than half a loaf, but I don't know how much we've gotten so far.  

    Slightly to the Left of Clinton... (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by masslib on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:02:33 PM EST
    wishful thinking.  What policies is he to the Left of Bill Clinton?  

    Parent
    you will get nothing (none / 0) (#102)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:10:27 PM EST
    but "2's" around here with that attitude.

    Parent
    Your prediction isn't holding yet, is it? (none / 0) (#144)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:33:46 PM EST
    that 5 was from me (none / 0) (#152)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:16:11 PM EST
    einstein

    Parent
    I think your prediction was that the (none / 0) (#157)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:21:32 PM EST
    post would garner a bunch of 2s. Don't see any of those.

    Parent
    isnt that (2.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:22:44 PM EST
    amazing

    Parent
    what is he to the left of clinton on? (none / 0) (#187)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 02:18:28 PM EST
    and please remember that Clinton for six years had a republican majority.  So far Obama should be in democrat heaven with his democratic majorities.  I can't wait to see how much more he moves right when he has democratic minorities.

    Parent
    interesting and I believe insightful (2.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:38:38 PM EST
    take from another blog
    sanitized for your protection:

    Seems to me Obama is confounding the pigf&@kers. he has proposed allowing the driling, basically, in Dixie, the land of cotton, where old times are not forgotten. He says he will let them drill in front of the beaches of only the reddest of red states, which probably has your Boehners and assorted confederate pigf&@kers sh!tting themselves with rage, because they don't want oil drilling off their coasts, they want it way off in Alaska, f&@k the caribou and salmon and that sh!t.

    Its kinda funny, the northern boundary that was proposed was the northern boundary of the State of Delaware, which marks a line sometimes called the Mason-Dixon line. he he he.

    It seems it might be kinda reminiscent of Lincoln putting the union cemetery in General Lee's front yard?

    My headline would be "Obama proposes allowing pigf&@kers to pollute their own beaches." You wanna drill, OK, f&@ker, I'll let you drill, in Myrtle Beach, and Savannah, and Ocracoke, and Hatteras, and Cape Fear, and Hilton Head, go ahead, you wanna drill so bad, go for it, tough guy."



    so the progressive response (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:43:08 PM EST
    is destroy the environment that we don't live in?  (disregarding that MD, VA and NC went for Obama in 08)

    Parent
    Well Obama is opening up more (5.00 / 6) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:50:14 PM EST
    than just "dixie."

    The environmentally sensitive Bristol Bay in southwestern Alaska would be protected and no drilling would be allowed under the plan, officials said. But large tracts in the Chukchi Sea and Beaufort Sea in the Arctic Ocean north of Alaska -- nearly 130 million acres -- would be eligible for exploration and drilling after extensive studies.


    Parent
    You find that (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:24:25 PM EST
    "interesting and insightful?"

    Sure, if you've always been curious about the view from inside someone's lower colon; and so good to know your primary objective of bringing the most offensive garbage in here just to get people riled up is still floating your boat.

    Parent

    so much (none / 0) (#114)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:25:35 PM EST
    for the lofty stilted endless BS.
    I like it.

    Parent
    I think I see (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:39:40 PM EST
    a "progressive" response

    Parent
    actually (none / 0) (#90)
    by CST on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:56:35 PM EST
    this reminds me a little of cape wind... from the other side.

    The problem with this logic is, sea life does not pay attention to state lines.  What happens to the oceans in dixie affects the rest of us too.

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 7) (#94)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:00:41 PM EST
    That is some ecologically ignorant, pathetically juvenile sh!t there. I don't even need to ask where it came from - beavis and butthead land, where politics is just like a video game and reality doesn't matter.

    Parent
    I will pass (none / 0) (#96)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:02:36 PM EST
    on your constructive criticism.

    really I will.


    Parent

    I was actually referring (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:19:03 PM EST
    to whatever blog it came from.

    But now that you mention it.

    Parent

    so was I (none / 0) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:25:56 PM EST
    I believe the commenter (none / 0) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 02:57:52 PM EST
    was speaking on political terms.  not environmental.

    Parent
    If the commenter is right, then Obama (none / 0) (#103)
    by observed on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:11:22 PM EST
    is the pigf*cker.


    Parent
    but is he (none / 0) (#105)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:16:45 PM EST
    a progressive pigf&@ker?

    Parent
    I don't know. Are you sore? (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by observed on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:30:20 PM EST
    not at all (none / 0) (#151)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:14:19 PM EST
    are you?

    Parent
    Night of the Living Gray Davises (none / 0) (#1)
    by kaleidescope on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:33:36 PM EST
    Scene II.

    Defining the Center? (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:33:48 PM EST
    OK, it is the center of a triangle...

    Good point (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:38:29 PM EST
    at least Clinton made the congress work a little for his support.

    bs (none / 0) (#188)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 02:20:39 PM EST
    Clinton compromised when he had to to stop even worse legislation from happening.

    Parent
    what else is different? (none / 0) (#9)
    by coigue on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 12:52:54 PM EST
    we have a democratic majority.

    for now,

    sigh

    It is just like when the Republicans were annoyed (none / 0) (#16)
    by Farmboy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:01:40 PM EST
    that Clinton's idea of welfare reform involved actually helping people, as opposed to their "reform" which was just cutting programs and putting the poor out on the street.

    Now John Boehner is criticizing Obama's announcement. Makes me wonder what he would accept as a good idea.

    Opening without restriction (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    all coastal areas near and far from shore.

    That's what he would find acceptable.

    He won't get that, but I bet that the proposed area that the Obama Administration has put forth will be expanded over the course of their "negotiations" with the GOP.

    I put "negotiations" in quotation marks because after what we've seen from this Administration, I am not at all convinced that they have been "forced" to do anything by the opposition party.  I think they've been doing exactly what they have wanted to do all along; and most of what they've wanted to do is far to the right of any real center on many of the issues they've been working on thus far.

    Parent

    What Obama (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:17:46 PM EST
    and Boehner both laid out is their starting point.

    What do you bet that before this is all said and done that the policy will move to the "middle," which will be somewhere between Obama's "sensible moderate policy" and Boehner's "radical fringe".

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#97)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:06:21 PM EST
    The Repubs will not accept anything Pres. Obama says or does, even when he adopts their policies. So all he accomplishes with things like off-shore drilling is to push the Repubs further right and ensure that moderate Republican policies (at best) will be adopted.

    I suppose some people think that if the Repubs say enough extreme, crazy things, people will desert them. I think it is more likely that these extreme positions, after they are repeated enough times by politicians that at least some segment of the population respects, will come to be seen as legitimate and praiseworthy.

    Parent

    Not Likely (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:10:15 PM EST
    Despite whatever Obama appears to be doing for better or in this case worse, the GOP is dying. US demographic trends will put a stake in the Old White People's party....  especially considering that they are too entrenched (with corporate donations) to change..  

    Parent
    IMO (3.66 / 3) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:14:15 PM EST
    that is what this is all about.  giving republicans who are not completely batsh!t crazy something to like.  because you are right.  the republican party is committing hilarious hari kari in full view of the national media.

    Parent
    Why should we want to share the party (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:48:16 PM EST
    with people whose views do not align sufficiently with ours? Is the point just to have the biggest party evah? Or is it to adopt good policy?  

    Wouldn't it make more sense to try to persuade the non-batty Republicans that our policies are actually better, not just adopt their policies which fairly well s*ck?

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:58:57 PM EST
    I think if you ask most republicans I doubt they would share your view.

    that is of anything but sharing their party with "those people"

    Parent

    They are a bit more robust than that. (none / 0) (#125)
    by Salo on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:45:38 PM EST
    They won't beat O in 2012 but they will certainly raw back into political power in 2016.  They already own everything as it is.

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#128)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 03:50:43 PM EST
    Just because we think they are crazy doesn't mean they will fade into oblivion. If they do, maybe the Democrats can (officially) become the new conservatives, and the rest of us can start a truly liberal party.

    Parent
    People have written off the Republican (none / 0) (#149)
    by Buckeye on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:09:11 PM EST
    Party too many times to count.  They will survive, demographic changes will not matter that much.  Bush got nearly half of Latino voters and Obama got 95% of AA voters instead of the normal 90%.  The young?  They always go for the Democrats and get more conservative as they get older, nothing new.  And if racial politics get too nasty in this country, a higher percentage of whites will just start voting republican (57% of whites voted for McCain - Nixon and Regan each got 65% - 70% with southern strategies).  If that happens, its lights out for Dems even if they get 100% of minority voters.

    Democrats cannot gain power and get their policies enacting by hoping for future demographic changes.  They have to confidently present their ideas and programs to the public, fight to get them enacted, and then benefit when they deliver results.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#150)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:14:00 PM EST
    I agree that the Democrats have to pander to get votes, but so does the GOP. With the demographics of an ever increasing youth, the GOP is going to have to let go of some of its most stauch positions.

    Like demonizing homosexuality, for instance, there is no way that the youth are going conservative on this one, no matter how old they get.

    I do not see the GOP letting straying from the ultra conservative views of old white men who are well off, in the near future.

    Parent

    Homosexuality is like civil rights for AA, (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Buckeye on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:27:03 PM EST
    women's rights, etc.  Younger people are always more liberal than older people.  As young people get older, they get more conservative on fiscal issues, national security, law and order, etc.  But they remain more tolerant.  We are very close to lifting the gay ban on the military, legalizing gay marriage, etc. and republicans are starting to embrace that reality.  The only reason republicans are so far behind on this (unlike the civil rights act that 80% of republicans in the legislature voted for) is the evangelical base.

    If I were a Republican, the bigger short-term fear I would have is not racial or age demographics, but education.  They are only attracting the uneducated voter.  As globalization is forcing a higher and higher percent of the workforce to have degrees, the Republican cannot have the likes of Sarah Palin as leaders or more intellectual voters (those that do not vote on culture wars) will recoil from them.

    Parent

    This is too obvious. (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:31:18 PM EST
    Clearly, Boehner is moving the framework of the debate  (the Overton Window) further to the extreme right in order to relocate the middle-ground ever further to the right (voila, the aforementioned Golden Mean Fallacy).

    Appearances to the contrary, the Republicans haven't lost their senses. They know Obama intends to tack to the right, and they know that the further to the right they go, the further to the right Obama will go while still claiming to be the voice of reason between two extremes.

    Is that the way Obama wants it to go? Again, appearances to the contrary, many would probably say no. I say yes, I do believe my eyes.

    Parent

    Good griefl (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 01:57:10 PM EST
    Who cares what Bohner thinks? It's all about jerking his knee just like dems are jerking their knees too.

    Parent
    Josh and Markos should (none / 0) (#136)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 04:03:38 PM EST
    oppose this....Big Orange hates this.....

    I suppose if Obama's policy requires new statutes, then Congress could simply fail to pass such a comprehensive energy bill.....

    Congrats to President Obama (none / 0) (#160)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 31, 2010 at 05:24:18 PM EST
    One could argue...as some non rabid conservatives do...that Obama is changing his tune on so many issues because he is now presented all the facts.

    Iraq, Afghanistan, detention, mandate on and on and on the campaign Obama who was pure progressive is faced with reality and is changing his tune.

    One coudl also argue he's a sell out.  

    I do know that this is yet another issue that Obama has changed radically on....

    .

    ..when I'm president, I intend to keep in place the moratorium here in Florida and around the country that prevents oil companies from drilling off Florida's coasts.

    The parrallels between Bush and Obama are becoming almost impossible to ignore.    Bush said he wasn't interested in nation building, was going to be post partisan blah, blah, blah.   Then he betrayed his conservative base by passing No Child Left Behind, Prescription Drugs and got us hopelessly involved in Iraq.

    Health Care will be Obama's iraq.  He had good intentions but executed it poorley and no one really likes it.  Sure some of his base (like republicans with Iraq) pretend they believe in it but strip away the pure partisan support and you're left with a terrible policy that will become more unpopular as time drags on.   HC could ruin his presidency and he won the political battle just like Bush did getting his invasion.

    We'll see.

    As for Oil, drill baby drill!!!

    shorter boo-man (none / 0) (#180)
    by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 09:38:34 AM EST
    baaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaaa

    What Obama Has Accomplished (none / 0) (#184)
    by admination on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 11:28:03 AM EST
    this matters to me:

    http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/the-quiet-revolution

    It's funny, considering this blog's new concern with "regulatory capture" that the way he is administering the exec agencies gets so little play.

    it is all well and good (none / 0) (#185)
    by CST on Thu Apr 01, 2010 at 11:40:14 AM EST
    that he is doing this, but the end of that article highlights the fatal flaw of relying solely on this approach:

    "More worrisome than the criticisms of activists is the possibility that politics may soon intrude. In 1993, Clinton, too, attempted to revive the regulatory agencies by appointing well-qualified personnel and increasing funding. But, after Republicans took control of Congress in 1994, they managed to cut Clinton's budget proposals and delay or block the implementation of regulations. If Democrats lose Congress this November, the same thing could happen again. In that case, what has been Obama's most significant achievement to date would come to naught--and liberals would have yet another reason to despair."

    We need to keep winning elections in order for this to really make a difference.

    Parent