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AZ Moves Against Teachers With Accents

A teacher with an accent:

Let me start out with my full disclosures: My parents immigrated to the United States in 1962. When my mother arrived, she spoke no English. My father spoke English, but was not perfectly fluent (to this day his English carries a heavy accent.) If Duncan Hunter had his way, I would be deported. My mother went to college in the United States and became a teacher. She speaks accented English. I am not impartial about what has been happening in Arizona. But I must ask this question: does the State of Arizona employ any attorneys?

The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English.

Let's leave the merited pejoratives aside. This is simply illegal. Someone in Arizona may want to review Title VII. And Section 1983 of the Civil Rights Laws. The geniuses running Arizona seem intent on bankrupting the state.

Speaking for me only

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    They don't care (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by TomStewart on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:01:13 PM EST
    what they do to people's lives or to the budget of their state, in fact if they bankrupt the treasury, they might achieve one goal, the REAL limited government. No, they just want their way. They look around and see a country that is becoming more diversified, or more bluntly, more brown. It scares them. They remember a time when it wasn't so scary (you know, when white people called all the shots) and whether they really think about it in exactly those terms or not, that's what they are trying to restore.

    After Bush v. Gore; the ensuing/ongoing war of terror; illegal wiretapping; torture; indefinite detention without charges; black sites; Abu Ghraib; Gitmo; Baghram; coverups of civilian massacres; and a Presidential edict to assassinate a U.S. citizen - why the eff should the Arizona Board of Education give any thought to the rule of law.

    The example is set from the top down. Oh, and the fish rots from the head down.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#116)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:05:08 PM EST
    Perhaps more germanely, employment rights are being destroyed through the same process abortion rights are being destroyed.  It's a universally applicable process.

    Parent
    W.T.F. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:07:49 PM EST
    Then again according to George Will, there are two types of Latinos - those who mow our lawn, and those who ruin it.  No room for teachers.

    George Will's Smell Test (none / 0) (#149)
    by norris morris on Sun May 02, 2010 at 05:15:45 PM EST
    Will always looks as though he just smelled something bad.  Particularly if the words
    liberal,progressive, or equality are spoken.

     It seems that Will personifies the so called Conservative Elite.

    Yes, he's well spoken but says a great many words where a few would actually reveal more plainly the snobbery and prejudice inherent in this particular group.

    Parent

    the more I read about Arizona, (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:09:06 PM EST
    the more "The Big Lebowski" comes to mind. Nativist nihilists.

    I know, how can a nihilist be a nativist? See Arizona.

    or maybe (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:10:36 PM EST
    Razing Arizona

    Parent
    "Say what you will about the (none / 0) (#6)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:12:53 PM EST
    Nazis, at least they had an ethos."

    Can one say the same for Arizona's gummint?

    Parent

    LOL! (none / 0) (#117)
    by Zorba on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:09:33 PM EST
    Thanks, Donald.  This is definitely their theme song, and the theme song as well for the Tea Party people and their ilk.  What have we become?  I want my country back!

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:12:03 PM EST
    My Grandfather immigrated to US in 1904, from Russia. He lived to 93 years old and only spoke Russian, Yiddish, and Hebrew until the day he died. He was a sucessful builder and raised a family of five with a cripple wife who was confined to a wheelchair.

    All his children became doctors, Lawyers and teachers.

    This law is racist, illegal, and seriously UnAmerican.

    I worry that this is the new face (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:15:15 PM EST
    of America. the close the door movement. Who know nothing of law, demography, sociology, or common decency.

    Parent
    Oh c'mon (none / 0) (#14)
    by abdiel on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:22:33 PM EST
    This is hardly the first or worst time that nativist sentiment in America has led to some gruesome policy changes.

    The real problem is the economy. So long as unemployment is up and the economy is down, look for politicians to lay the blame on illegal immigration to deflect from poor government responses. It's easier for Arizona to blame Mexicans for its woes than explain why 60% of the real estate market is financially under water and the state is on the brink of fiscal crisis.

    Parent

    not really (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:24:02 PM EST
    this is also from the FOX news article and it is not about economics

    Horne began fighting in 2007 against the Tucson Unified School District's program, which he said defied Martin Luther King's call to judge a person by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. Horne claimed the ethnic studies program encourages "ethnic chauvanism," promotes Latinos to rise up and create a new territory out of the southwestern region of the United States and tries to intimidate conservative teachers in the school system.


    Parent
    Nativism in Arizoy was scary (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:31:36 PM EST
    as all h3ll in the 1990s when I lived there. I was much more worried about dealing with the white gun nuts (who seemed to me to have more than their fair share of nativism) than anyone else.

    But what would I know?
    I was a cop getting a degree in sociology.

    Parent

    Exactly my point (none / 0) (#19)
    by abdiel on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:29:24 PM EST
    Nobody is asking about the economy or why the state has been hit so hard.

    Parent
    I dont quite (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:40:53 PM EST
    get your point.  the entire country is in a very bad place economy wise.

    why does Arizona get a pass for blatant racism.
    that quote was about a guy hiding, of all freakin disgusting places, behind MLK to excuse racism.

    I think THAT is what we are talking about.

    but with my ADD and all I could be wrong.


    Parent

    The point was (none / 0) (#118)
    by abdiel on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:18:55 PM EST
    that this isn't anything new to American history, nor is it unique to Arizona. I was refuting the point worrying that this is the "new face" to America.

    Nobody is giving them a pass, but illegal immigration happens to be a scapegoat issue that pops up whenever the economy goes bad. The economy as a whole is bad, but few have quite the acute government-fed problems that Arizona has.

    Parent

    Have past immigration rates been as high? (none / 0) (#17)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:24:12 PM EST
    I honestly don't know. I just read that about 1.3 million immigrated here in the peak year of 1907---a huge percentage.
    Andgarden mentioned something about wanting to return to pre-1924 immigration law. I meant to ask for details.

    Parent
    Pre-1924-- (none / 0) (#18)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:27:06 PM EST
    fairly open European immigration, but the Japanese Exclusion Act and the Chinese exclusion Act were stull in effect.

    Parent
    Acccented English (none / 0) (#150)
    by norris morris on Sun May 02, 2010 at 05:26:07 PM EST
    My dad died at 99. He came to America from France when he was 30. My mother arrived here from Germany in 1921 and married my father in 1924. She too died at age 99. My mother spoke only German fluently and some French when she arrived, but mastered English albeit with a strong German accent.

    My mother was a highly educated intellectual, and continued her education until age 86.  My dad spoke only Yiddish,Hebrew, and French on arrival. He learned to speak English with a heavy accent, but had no trouble becoming a successful businessman and an active participant in American ideals and democratic principles. Both of my parents contributed to the country they loved....America. Both communicated and integrated and managed to raise and educate me and do good works for others.

    Parent

    Maybe the question should be, will (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:18:34 PM EST
    Arizona become a haven for the kinds of lawyers who would approve of a directive like this?  Because I cannot imagine the Department of Education did not first get approval from their legal department to issue it.

    I'm betting the legislature got a legal stamp of approval before that Senate bill was presented, too.

    It's been such a demoralizing and distressing couple of weeks, with legislation coming out of the states and DC that just make me feel sick.  Between the Papieren, bitte Arizona law, and the Democrats' biometric identity cards, assassination orders, forced ultrasounds, liability exemptions for docs who don't disclose fetal abnormalities, mental health exams for women seeking abortions, subpoenas issued with Eric Holder approval to the NYT journalist who disclosed the CIA's botched effort to infiltrate the Iranian nuclear program - a subpoena originally issued by the Bush DOJ - Obama gearing up to cut entitlements, partnering with the Pete Peterson Foundation - what the hell is happening?

    Arizona has lost its mind, and other states are lining up to follow in Arizona's footsteps.

    And all we get from Obama is a paternal assurance that he will be keeping an eye on things?  Really?

    This is all just so wrong, and what worries me is the sense that that might be more and more a minority opinion.


    Come on now (none / 0) (#108)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 06:03:04 PM EST
    Incremental change is what Obama's all about.  And he's really a process-oriented guy, not so much substance.

    So, maybe in his world view, it's all working fine.  People agreeing and passing legislation, little bits of change at a time, we're all good.  He probably just wants to watch for a bit and make sure the process doesn't break down.

    [/snark]

    Parent

    Snarky, but true. (none / 0) (#112)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 06:28:22 PM EST
    Obama's Assurances (none / 0) (#151)
    by norris morris on Sun May 02, 2010 at 05:29:04 PM EST
    Are just that. Petersen has made himself clear on many issues that are troubling. Obama is a compromiser. This is not what we were led to believe but this is what we've got.

    Parent
    From the WSJ article (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:30:07 PM EST
    "Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," said Johanna Haver, a proponent of English-language immersion who serves as an adviser to Arizona educators. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

    Surely, those who are proponents of English-only laws ought to "speak" good grammer, too.  What an f'ng git.

    Doesn't that take the cake! (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:09:14 PM EST
    Is this babe going to be on the "death panel" that evaluates the teachers' English grammar?

    Realistically, unfortunately, if we fired all the teachers, accent or not, who use lousy grammar, we'd have precious few left.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:04:13 PM EST
    I spelled grammar wrong.  I'm fired.

    Parent
    When quoted that passage should read... (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 06:33:36 PM EST
    "Teachers should speak [sic] good grammar because kids pick up what they hear...Where you draw the line is debatable."


    Parent
    Well, how ungrammatical of her! (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by Cream City on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 09:51:39 PM EST
    Excuse me, but no one "speaks good grammar."

    The grammatically correct statement would be: "Teachers should speak with good grammar. . . ." or "Teachers should speak using good grammar. . . ."

    She's fired.

    Parent

    Oh good! (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by hookfan on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:31:11 PM EST
       It's about time people from the south (y'all), and the northeast (Where'd ya pak the cah?) got their rightful comeuppance for distorting the english language. Oh the Norwegians and Swedes in the upper midwest, the Germans in Texas (they are doubly unwanted, cursed by Germanic sounds and Texas twang). Of course it goes without speaking that they didn't want the whole state of Oklahoma, they might be as bad as the French. Russians in the pacific northwest are clearly ruled out. . .The English sound snooty anyway, nor need anybody from Jamaica apply.Just to show we are not bigoted anybody expressing Chinese, Jewish (Jewish? Yeah them too), Japanese, Korean or Vietnamese sounds need not apply. There are some I overlooked, but not to worry, you'll be screened with a sound test to ensure you meet our well established standards for what is pure American language.
      Equal application of the law for all ya know. . . Nothing like a little solidarity to expose how ridiculous this is.
       And there never has been a time when there has been an established linguistic reference for what constitutes a correct American accent. Even whites are so diversified who can tell, eh? (I live close to Canada-- I'm influenced by contaminated sounds, oh no. . .)

    see I got a 5 and (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:42:48 PM EST
    will return the compliment.

    how f*cking absurd.  this is twilight zone stuff.

    Parent

    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:44:23 PM EST
    sorry (none / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:48:48 PM EST
    am I being opaque again.

    he rated me a 5 upthread and I "returned the compliment"

    I agree with every word in that comment.

    Parent

    Lol! (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by hookfan on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:47:30 PM EST
    Wait! I'm contaaaaminated by Squeaky. . .
       I agree and thanks. . .

    Parent
    God forbid (none / 0) (#45)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:55:55 PM EST
    Oprah ever become an English teacher....

    CAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL MEEEEEEEEEE ISHMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAELLLLLLLLL!!!!

    (Just kidding.  I love Oprah, and this comment).

    Parent

    I love this comment (#21) (none / 0) (#70)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:23:22 PM EST
    It shows how absurd this accent idea is. Yes, just what is an accent? Who determines what an accent is? (I guess it means the Board of Education - or someone they hire to be the accent police).

    Then we have the real problem of the quantity of accent. Is there a scale? Does some person determine or will it be more objective? Maybe there will be a machine created just for this - the Accent O'Meter. Like a breathalyzer. Just speak grammar into the machine.

    Now that we have determined that the accent is the wrong kind and is too much, then what to do with the "offender"? Firing them might be illegal...

    Parent

    Dialects (none / 0) (#152)
    by norris morris on Sun May 02, 2010 at 05:36:09 PM EST
    There are so many accents in American english  spoken that when I'm in Texas or the Ozarks, or down South [La,Miss,SC,etc] there are actually dialects, patois, and slang that I absolutely need explained.  So what? It means we have a diverse and rich culture.

    As a New Yorker I hear accents all day every day.

    Arizona and the GOP have lost it.

    Where are the lawyers in Arizona? This seems like a suicide mission for the GOP when our largest voting bloc will be hispanic. Are they nuts?

    Parent

    Thank you. As another nigh-Canadian (none / 0) (#134)
    by Cream City on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 09:57:08 PM EST
    I had the same thought:

    Every teacher speaks with an accent!

    I had to learn to tone down my Midwestern accent with our special local spin amid many Noo Yawker coworkers who mock it so -- but I still can lay it on for fun with my local students, and I would bet  that I would not be understood by many Arizonans.

    I mean, dere dey dassn't say I speak funny down by here, ain'a hey?

    Parent

    Here's an abstruse story on accents. (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:20:37 PM EST
    The brilliant Russian mathematician Besicovitch taught in the UK for much of his career in the early 20th century. There's a story about his accent. A student complained about his
    accent once and he responded that there were 50 million people who spoke English the way the student did, and 150 million who spoke English the way he did, so what was the problem? (I made up the numbers, but that's the gist).

    Love it! (none / 0) (#139)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 11:11:39 PM EST
    What a great story.  Thanks!

    Parent
    I cited Besicovitch once, but I had a friend (none / 0) (#146)
    by observed on Sat May 01, 2010 at 12:59:59 AM EST
    who got to cite Lewis Carroll in a paper of his.
    I kid you not---serious citation for a little bit of algebra  of Carroll's that he used.

    Parent
    When I was in college (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by Jjc2008 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 06:29:55 PM EST
    and my parents came to visit, something strange would happen.  My normally, outgoing, funny mother would get quiet.  I would get upset. I thought she did not like my friends.  I would ask her.  And she replied "Of course she liked them," and gave me the "you're being silly" look.  

    It was later on in life as an adult that I figured it out.  My mother was an immigrant. English was something she learned when she went to school.  Here parents died young, having never learned the language.   She was pulled out of school in the sixth grade to work in a textile factory.  Her abusive b-i-l who took over the family did not believe girls needed school.

    In my years at college, my dad sent all the letters to me.  But one day in my junior year, I got a letter from my Mom.  Only two sentence.   Dear J, here is some spending money.   Don't show this note to anyone.  I love you.  Mom.

    As a teacher, it all made sense. When I was teaching in a poor neighborhood school, some of the moms coming in were so quiet.  I immediately sensed that they were intimidated. I worked hard to make them feel comfortable, welcome and my equal.   It hit me.  All those years when I was in elementary school, my mother rarely came to conferences, leaving it up to my dad (who had gong to the tenth grade, but had in the Navy during WWII gone to school, and was a cop, and comfortable with talking to people); all the times at college when my normally funny, outgoing mom would go quiet.  
    She was ashamed.  People in the 1930s made immigrants feel ashamed of broken English; of not having been given an education. My mother never totally let go of the shame that she was made to feel as a child.
    How can this be happening again in 2010??
    I weep for all the beautiful wonderful parents being made to feel afraid, ashamed and different.
    I weep for America.


    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 11:35:38 PM EST
    Thank you for sharing that.

    It's also true that if you're not fully fluent, most people literally can't be themselves in another language.  You can maybe negotiate daily life well enough, but you feel like you've been bottled up in some odd denatured condition in which your personality either doesn't exist at all, or is transformed into something timid and apologetic that isn't you at all.

    Been there, done that, and have known others in that prison.

     

    Parent

    Does that mean Sarah Palin (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:23:52 PM EST
    can't teach English in Arizona?

    She's trilingual in English, (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:29:33 PM EST
    Native American, and gibberish.

    Parent
    I held off for as long as I could (none / 0) (#125)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:41:50 PM EST
    taking this obvious shot at Palin....but, alas, I weakened....

    Parent
    I'm surprised you didn't ask who taught (none / 0) (#126)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:50:22 PM EST
    her Native American.
    It was Dan Quayle.

    Parent
    The back & forth between BTD & Emma (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 09:48:23 PM EST
    was exciting to read!  I just hope that someone from AZ's BOE didn't see the exchange. It would be like they rec'd a  free head's up as to what courses of action they can start taking to make sure that their almost-certain litigation can be won.

    If these laws don't split the business (none / 0) (#7)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:13:00 PM EST
    wing of the GOP from the loony-toon wing, I don't know what will.
    What exactly is driving this insanity, though?
    Brownophobia alone?

    Economic failure and brownophobia. (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:16:56 PM EST
    And a sick feeling of entitlement for being 'white.'

    Parent
    and I'm thinking Obama isn't taking (none / 0) (#13)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:19:24 PM EST
    the first of those problems seriously enough.
    He doesn't even seem to care. This is very important, even if he doesn't do much, or doesn't think he can.


    Parent
    what makes you think (none / 0) (#10)
    by cpinva on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:17:53 PM EST
    The geniuses running Arizona seem intent on bankrupting the state.

    this is by accident? the state legislature (owned and operated by the mining interests) passes all kinds of goofy, overtly unconstitutional twaddle, which the state AG is then obligated to defend. it costs millions to defend these laws, plus the cost of judgements. soon, the state is bankrupt, goes to the auction block, and the mining companies pick it up for a song.

    what was once public lands become the toxic waste dumping grounds for the mining industry. the diamondbacks change their name to the "radiumbacks", and no one worries about illegal immigrants, because they've all left for northern mexico, where it's safer.

    yeah, yeah, i know, the EPA and all that nonsense. well guess what bucko, this is MY paranoid, leftwing conspiracy fantasy, so buzz off!

    Is this only Arizona's fault/problem? (none / 0) (#12)
    by EL seattle on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:18:38 PM EST
    From that same WSJ story:

    Arizona's enforcement of fluency standards is based on an interpretation of the federal No Child Left Behind Act. That law states that for a school to receive federal funds, students learning English must be instructed by teachers fluent in the language. Defining fluency is left to each state, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Education said.

    Are other states making similar similar teacher judgements?  I wonder if any states just ignoring that part of the Leave No Child Behind Act.  If they're not alll ignoring it, maybe some states are being more effective at it than others...

    The word FLUENCY (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:38:25 PM EST
    is not equivalent to speaking without a discernible accent.

    Apparently this is not understood in Arizona.

    Parent

    However (none / 0) (#26)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:42:05 PM EST
    accent discrimination can be legal under Title VII and Sec. 1983.  So, clearly AZ understands something.

    Parent
    In very very limited circumstances (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:43:35 PM EST
    Your example is regarding someone who must communicate on the telephone.

    This is simply not comparable.

    Parent

    You reading (none / 0) (#32)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:45:37 PM EST
    selectively to support your position doesn't make me wrong.

    Parent
    It does not make me wrong either (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:49:00 PM EST
    If you believe your position is correct, by all means argue it.

    But the case you cite does not seem on point to me.

    Indeed, I would ask if you know of any cases where a similar holding came up in the educational realm?

    At least to me, this policy is without precedent. Could you point me to something to correct my understanding?

    Parent

    By the way (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:50:57 PM EST
    Do you NOT believe such discrimination can be legal in very very limited circumstances?

    Parent
    Under Title VII (none / 0) (#48)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:57:18 PM EST
    clearly such discrimination can be legal.  So long as you have a good, non-race-based reason for what you do, anything can be legal under Title VII.

    I just had case dismissed under Sec. 1983 where the school district divided students' applications by gender, and then picked them boy/girl/boy/girl.  The reason they gave?  Gender balance in the classroom is good for students.  Of course, when you have 10 open slots and 5 girls and 10 boys applying for those slots, I don't think that either fair or gender-neutral.  But, we lost in the trial court.

    This isn't about what I want, or what I think is right or wrong, it's about what the law allows.  It might allow this, if it's narrowly and consistently applied based on individual evaluations of teachers.

    Parent

    What advice would you render Arizona here? (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:05:57 PM EST
    Would you advise them that they are vulnerable to suits? Numerous suits? Indeed, any measures taken as a result of this policy could very well require intensive fact finding (a/k/a as discovery) which is generally a costly proposition.

    Forget what we prefer as policy, would you not agree with me that Arizona makes itself significantly more vulnerable to Title VII and Section 1983 actions as a result of this policy?

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#95)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:52:00 PM EST
    All that.  It's all true.  But AZ could still win on the policy and in individual cases.  And if they're willing to take that risk, you know a lawyer can't stop them.

    And, remember:  anybody could still split the baby, i.e. hold that the policy is facially neutral, thus sustainable as is.  And anybody who's fired or moved under it would then be faced with having to bring an individual lawsuit that alleges the facially neutral policy was applied to them for discriminatory reasons.  And then you're in the weeds, as an employee.  It's tough to bring those lawsuits.  

    Also, if you're not economically harmed, if you don't lose pay, or seniority, or benefits, you might not have an adverse employment action sufficient to maintain a lawsuit.  Again, you're in the weeds.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:44:19 PM EST
    Well I consider an Arizona accent foreign.

    Parent
    Lol! (none / 0) (#42)
    by hookfan on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:52:44 PM EST
     You know, you may actually be right. . .

    Parent
    You would agree with me then (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:03:07 PM EST
    that accent and fluency are not the same thing? From the Compliance Manual:

    "B. Fluency Requirements
    1. English Fluency

    Generally, a fluency requirement is permissible only if required for the effective performance of the position for which it is imposed. Because the degree of fluency that may be lawfully required varies from one position to the next, employers should avoid fluency requirements that apply uniformly to a broad range of dissimilar positions.

    As with a foreign accent, an individual's lack of proficiency in English may interfere with job performance in some circumstances, but not in others. For example, an individual who is sufficiently proficient in spoken English to qualify as a cashier at a fast food restaurant may lack the written language skills to perform a managerial position at the same restaurant requiring the completion of copious paperwork in English.(45) As illustrated below, the employer should not require a greater degree of fluency than is necessary for the relevant position."

    Parent

    Rifht I agree (none / 0) (#96)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:55:35 PM EST
    They're not the same thing.  Two different things.

    But, as I understand the policy, it does not apply uniformly to a broad range of dissimilar positions.  As I understand it, the policy applies to teachers who teach foreign-language students the English language (i.e., not grammar class) and requires the schools to do an individual assessment of each teacher's accent and fluency.

    So, if this is correct, it seems to me that the rule was written, and is (theoretically, at least) applied to comply with Title VII.

    Parent

    Not sure about that (none / 0) (#136)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 10:55:33 PM EST
    the language BTD cited says "classes for students still learning English."

    I think in a bilingual environment, that means the determining factor is whether the students are fluent in English or not, not whether English is the subject being taught.

    Remember they're no longer allowed to teach them, say, history in their own language, it has to be in English.  The way this usually works is that the kids get some period of time for English lessons, then have to start regular classes in English, whether they've mastered it or not.

    The ones having trouble presumably get additional English lessons, but they're not exempt or excused from regular classes while they're in the process of mastering the English language.

    Parent

    I see (none / 0) (#144)
    by Emma on Sat May 01, 2010 at 12:25:48 AM EST
    Thanks for the clarification.  

    The teachers are still working for the school, they're just teaching different classes.  But it seems there are more classes they can't teach.

    Parent

    I wonder how they understand/define it.... (none / 0) (#73)
    by EL seattle on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:25:30 PM EST
    ... in California, or Texas, or NYC, or other parts of the country that have a sizable immigrant population but still want to get federal dollars through Leave No Child?

    Personally, I think that there should be healthy federal grants that would specifically help those communities and states with significant immigrant populations by providing robust support for things like ESL-related programs.  But maybe funding for those sorts of budgets have been cut...

    Parent

    The law could be sustained (none / 0) (#16)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:24:03 PM EST
    This is from the EEOC's compliance manual for Title VII:

    An employment decision based on foreign accent does not violate Title VII if an individual's accent materially interferes with the ability to perform job duties. This assessment depends upon the specific duties of the position in question and the extent to which the individual's accent affects his or her ability to perform job duties. Employers should distinguish between a merely discernible foreign accent and one that interferes with communication skills necessary to perform job duties.  Generally, an employer may only base an employment decision on accent if effective oral communication in English is required to perform job duties and the individual's foreign accent materially interferes with his or her ability to communicate orally in English. Positions for which effective oral communication in English may be required include teaching, customer service, and telemarketing. Even for these positions, an employer must still determine whether the particular individual's accent interferes with the ability to perform job duties. The examples below illustrate how to apply these principles.

    The manual cites to: "Fragante v. City & County of Honolulu, 888 F.2d 591, 597-98 (9th Cir. 1989), cert. denied, 494 U.S. 1081 (1990), the court found that the employer lawfully refused to hire an individual with a pronounced Filipino accent for a position requiring constant phone communication with the public. The record revealed that Fragante's pronounced Filipino accent would make him difficult to understand over the telephone."

    For all intents and purposes, Sec. 1983 cases are the same as Title VII cases.  It's probably going to be a tough case to prove discrimination, especially so if each teacher is evaluated on an individual basis.

    Disagree with you (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:37:37 PM EST
    Not even a close comparison in my view.

    To compare a telemarketer type job with a teacher's job is not credible to me.

    Parent

    It says (none / 0) (#31)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:44:25 PM EST
    right in the compliance manual:  "teaching".  Teaching is an example of a job which might require people to not have accents or not have heavy accents.  

    You can disagree with me all you want, I don't care.  But I practice in this area, I've practiced in this area for 15 years, and I know it better than you do.  It's a tough case.  It's not open and shut like you seem to think it is, especially if each teacher is individually evaluated, as appears to be happening.

    Parent

    Wait a second (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:46:58 PM EST
    Have you ever defended a case like this? Really?

    I believe this is unprecedented.

    Please correct me if I am wrong. Can you cite some examples in the education area?

    Parent

    Have I personally (none / 0) (#41)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:51:53 PM EST
    defended a case exactly like this?  No.  I haven't.  So what?  The compliance manual allows for discrimination based on accent and English fluency if communication in English is an essential part of your job.  

    It seems to me that AZ has its ducks in a row on this, whether they ultimately prevail or not.  What they're saying to justify their actions is right down the line consistent w/Title VII.  In the "education context" has f-all to do with it.

    Maybe the lawyers in AZ aren't as stupid as you think.

    Parent

    So what? (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:57:53 PM EST
    Have you heard about a case like this one? Can you cite to it? That seems a reasonable request.

    BTW, we can also read the compliance manual, which seems much more sanguine about this than you intimated:

    A. Accent Discrimination

    Because linguistic characteristics are a component of national origin, employers should carefully scrutinize employment decisions that are based on accent to ensure that they do not violate Title VII.(43)

    An employment decision based on foreign accent does not violate Title VII if an individual's accent materially interferes with the ability to perform job duties. This assessment depends upon the specific duties of the position in question and the extent to which the individual's accent affects his or her ability to perform job duties. Employers should distinguish between a merely discernible foreign accent and one that interferes with communication skills necessary to perform job duties.(44)

    Generally, an employer may only base an employment decision on accent if effective oral communication in English is required to perform job duties and the individual's foreign accent materially interferes with his or her ability to communicate orally in English. Positions for which effective oral communication in English may be required include teaching, customer service, and telemarketing. Even for these positions, an employer must still determine whether the particular individual's accent interferes with the ability to perform job duties. The examples below illustrate how to apply these principles.

    EXAMPLE 16
    EMPLOYMENT DECISION WHERE ACCENT IS NOT A MATERIAL FACTOR

    Anna, a Pakistani librarian in an elementary school, is responsible for cataloguing, researching, and reading aloud to young children. Her performance evaluations reflect that she is an excellent cataloguer and researcher and that she can communicate effectively with teachers and older children, but that some of the youngest children have had difficulty understanding her due to her accent. When her position is eliminated, Anna asks the local school board to transfer her to a position at a high school that involves cataloguing and researching but requires minimal student contact. The school board appropriately grants Anna's transfer request because Anna is qualified and her accent would not materially interfere with her ability to perform the librarian position at the high school.

    EXAMPLE 17
    EMPLOYMENT DECISION WHERE ACCENT IS A MATERIAL FACTOR

    A major aspect of Bill's position as a concierge for XYZ Hotel is assisting guests with directions and travel arrangements. Numerous people have complained that they cannot understand Bill because of his heavy Ghanaian accent. Therefore, XYZ notifies Bill that he is being transferred to a clerical position that does not involve extensive spoken communication. The transfer does not violate Title VII because Bill's accent materially interferes with his ability to perform the functions of the concierge position.

    At the very least, Arizona is inviting lawsuits galore, never a good legal strategy.

    Parent

    I cited (none / 0) (#61)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:09:22 PM EST
    the entire passage you put there, except for the examples.  So, I'm not trying to "intimate" anything.  It says what it says.  Yes, there are teaching positions that it doesn't matter if kids experience trouble understanding you because of your fluency or accent.  It seems to me, though, that AZ has a pretty good argument that English teacher is not one of those.

    So, the rule doesn't seem to be facially discriminatory.  And thus far, the State has articulated a legitimate non-discriminatory reason for its actions:  students who are learning English need teachers who are fluent in English and don't have heavy accents which make them difficult to understand.

    Now, as a plaintiff's lawyer, you have to prove the reason the state has given is pretext for race discrimination.  So, prove it.

    It's not as easy as you are implying.  Especially if the policy is applied race-neutrally.  It's a very fact specific inquiry:  prove that AZ discriminated against this particular plaintiff because of his/her race and not because he/she was not fluent or accent-free enough to teach children English.  You can prove it, if you have the facts.  But you have to get the facts.  And AZ officials have proven they know what the law is, what it requires, and what the loopholes are.

    And, yeah, sure, AZ may open itself up to a lot of lawsuits.  But they may have their policy affirmed on the first one.  And then everybody that comes after faces a steeper climb.

    Oh, also?  AZ still has 11th Amendment immunity, so forget Sec. 1983 claims against the state.

    Parent

    I would add this (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:15:46 PM EST
    This phrase from your comment "It's not as easy as you are implying.  Especially if the policy is applied race-neutrally."

    Please explain to me how that policy can be applied "race neutrally."

    It seems plain to me that the intent is to NOT apply it race neutrally.

    Surely they are not planning on dismissing a bunch of Irish accented teachers?

    In the words of Homer Simpson, "now who is being naive?"

    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#72)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:24:34 PM EST
    you have to PROVE it.  With evidence of discriminatory intent.

    The policy is race neutral on its face.  It applies to ANY accents.  And, you know what, they WILL argue it applies to Irish teacher because it DOES.  On it's face.

    As applied MIGHT be different, but if I represented AZ, I'd just say "Is it AZ's fault that most teachers in AZ with accents have Spanish or Mexican accents?  The policy applies to everybody.  We've applied it to everybody."

    Call me naive if you want, but I had a sex discrimination case dismissed in the trial court and upheld through 2 Courts of Appeals on the justification that saying you were going to get rid of the c*nts and b*tches, and then DOING so, was NOT evidence of discriminatory intent.  Don't call ME naive until you've done this for 15 years and had to explain to that particular client why she no longer had a lawsuit.

    Parent

    Hmmm (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:26:01 PM EST
    Mebbe.

    Me, I see the law itself as having malicious intent.

    In a different time, I think the SCOTUS would have seen it my way.

    These days, the SCOTUS would probably overturn a sustained on appeal jury verdict.

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#83)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:36:05 PM EST
    In a different time, I think the SCOTUS would have seen it my way.

    I think a lot of Circuit Courts would have, too.  But things, they are a'changin'.  And the discriminatory intent requirement gets more onerous every year.

    Parent

    I apologize (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:13:35 PM EST
    You are correct that I should not have used the word "intimated" - your citation was complete. I disclosed my conflict didn't I? I use that as explanation.

    On the question of Section 1983 and state sovereignty, I would have to look at Arizona's laws,  but it would surprise me if state officials were required to defend themselves in these actions.

    I DO have a bit of Section 1983 experience, and in the cases I was involved in, the state governments footed the legal bills. Which, BTW, is what I imagine would be the biggest cost here for Arizona.

    Parent

    Right (none / 0) (#88)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:39:15 PM EST
    You can sue State officials, as follows:

    1.  In their official capacities for prospective injunctive relief, and

    2.  In their individual capacities for legal relief, i.e. damages.

    And, yes, the State will likely foot the bill for those defenses.  And if damages awards are made against the individuals, probably that bill, too.

    Parent
    Final question (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:59:00 PM EST
    If presented to you as an attorney in the field, would you have any cautions for your client in adopting this policy?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:32:27 PM EST
    I'd tell them what I told you:  Make individual cases for each teacher you want to dismiss through objective evidence like student/parent complaints or lots of students who can't function in the English language.  Otherwise, just don't do it.  It's stupid, it's discriminatory, and you're going to be sued.  And you should be sued.

    Better, don't make any policy about accents or fluency. Write a policy that allows you to move/dismiss teachers who don't meet completely neutral teaching/learning standards.  Of course, I don't know about unions and contract, I don't know what barriers those might represent.

    Look, it's apparent to me that this policy is written specifically to go after "foreign" teachers.  It just might not be so apparent to the law because AZ will produce all sorts of Brandeis-brief evidence that children learning English need fluent, accent-free speakers.  That's easy stuff to get.

    Parent

    Are you sure about this part? (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:37:09 PM EST
    this policy is written specifically to go after "foreign" teachers.
    Is this the same policy that "goes after" ungrammatical teachers too?

    Parent
    It is (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:44:00 PM EST
    my opinion that the ungrammatical stuff is a fig leaf.  Don't know that it can be proven, but that's what I think it is.

    Parent
    Ya gotta wonder if this policy (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:49:25 PM EST
    came out of nowhere, or because they were responding to a documented problem.

    Parent
    No doubt, it is a response (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:08:02 PM EST
    to a "problem."  But what is that "problem?"

    Parent
    That's a great (none / 0) (#99)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:14:12 PM EST
    question and is one of the first questions any Plaintiff's lawyer should ask.

    If you want to prove the policy was enacted for discriminatory reasons, start with the following evidence:

    1.  Lack of complaints about teachers' accents or fluency;

    2.  Lack of evidence that children are failing to learn b/c of teachers' accents or fluency; and

    3.  Lack of any studies done by AZ regarding English teachers' effectiveness and fluency/accents.

    Just for starters.

    To put it in legal terms re:  Sec. 1983, show that the State's good reason is, in fact, not a good reason and/or is not supported by any evidence.  You can attack the reasoning this way b/c I think it's very doubtful that AZ has any objective evidence to support their given reason.

    However, if a State can sustain racial preferences in admissions based on something called "diversity", I think the bar on this is pretty low.

    Parent

    The issue is that .... (none / 0) (#142)
    by nyrias on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 11:23:43 PM EST
    the standards are NOT clear and it can be construed as being prejudicial to foreign born teachers.

    The answer is simple. In Hong Kong, there is a standard LANGUAGE test (in both English and Mandarin) that teachers have to pass before they are certified to teach language courses. Obviously since the HK population is almost like 98% chinese and there are few foreign born teacher, the intent is really to ensure quality educations and there is no question about discrimination.

    AZ, if the intent is really to guarantee a certain level of education, can take a similar approach and require ALL language teachers to take a test. There are of course costs but at least it won't be discriminatory.

    As a parent, I do want my kids' English teacher to be an expert in teaching English.

    A disclaimer: I am a foreign born US citizen and while i speak fluent English, I do have a slight accent.

    Parent

    I think even if (none / 0) (#50)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:58:08 PM EST
    it is facially nuetral, an as-applied challenge would present trouble for the policy proponents.   See my comment below regarding the teachers that are targeted....

    Accents?  And that is really okay.....It puts a knot in my gut just thinking about it....

    Parent

    I think more than that (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:01:49 PM EST
    each individual review and evaluation is tricky as all hell.

    How precisely would the standards be uniformly applied?

    What review process would there be for such evaluations?

    As a question of fact, how would you determine when each individual application of this policy might violate Title VII?

    What attorney in their right mind would advise their client to adopt such a policy?

    Parent

    Yes, (5.00 / 5) (#66)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:19:11 PM EST
    those are the exact issues that need to be considered.

    What attorney in their right mind would advise their client to adopt such a policy?

    If the client has legitimate concerns that children's educational needs aren't being met b/c teachers are not sufficiently fluent in English or their accents interfere with students' ability to understand.

    And that's the crux, that's the weak point:  you've got to put pressure on AZ to provide actual evidence, from their schools and their classrooms, that a particular teacher's accent and/or fluency compromises children's education.  They may not have that evidence.

    Really, though, if AZ officials want to sustain any particular applcation of the policy, they should start collecting parent/student complaints about individual teachers.

    On less solid ground, they could put observers in classrooms to evaluate students' learning and ability to understand teachers' spoken English.

    Here, you're on better ground with each individual teacher, rather than posing it as facially race-based or group discriminatorty, b/c it's doubtful the AZ will bother to actually collect any supporting evidence for individual teachers.

    You can give up a lot of rhetorical ground:  "yes, students need teachers who are fluent in English and whose accents don't interfere with students' learning," but still win for each individual teacher, "but there is NO EVIDENCE that THIS teacher's fluency and/or accent interferes with any students' learning."  

    So, arguing the rule in such broad terms, i.e. as obviously and facially discriminatory, actually makes you argue on AZ's terms, which is stronger for them legally speaking.  You WANT to require individual assessments and justifications.

    You may still win on the broader argument, but AZ has proved it's at least set up to make a go of it on that.

    Parent

    Nice ly done. Every once in a while (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:28:50 PM EST
    you (I) learn something here on TL...

    Parent
    Excellent comment (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:24:02 PM EST
    Really appreciate the insight.

    Very helpful.

    Parent

    It would seem the problem (none / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:29:07 PM EST
    is that the Arizona teachers with the accents are teaching Latino kids who are learning English as a second language.....I don't think their parents will complain....

    Parent
    Good (none / 0) (#90)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:40:47 PM EST
    makes it harder for the state, right?

    Parent
    One would think so, but (none / 0) (#104)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:35:13 PM EST
    with all this stuff coming out of Arizona, who knows.

    Parent
    Ok, here's my question. (none / 0) (#79)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:32:36 PM EST
    Since the law mentions ungrammatical English,
    does the state need to look for teachers with ungrammatical English? If they do not, could this be used to show discriminatory intent?
    IANAL^2, but I think including the condition of speaking grammatical English is very sloppy, because oral language is rarely grammatical in the first place.

    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:35:06 PM EST
    I think the "fluency" issue is similar to that as well.

    Parent
    You have to ask why those clauses are (none / 0) (#89)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:40:41 PM EST
    included in the first place.
    I wonder if there were lawyers who recommended against referring to accents, for the obvious reasons, leading to these other conditions being thrown in. Equally obviously, the bill's political value comes from specifically targeting people with funny accents.

    Parent
    The counter-argument: (none / 0) (#91)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:43:12 PM EST
    is right there in the narrowness of the rule, which seems to apply only to English teachers:  grammatically correct English may not be so important when it comes to teaching math.

    But, then again, I can see this expanded to all teachers, thereby shunting all "non-fluent" or "accented" teachers to admin jobs.

    Parent

    Ah, but my observation is that in fact, (none / 0) (#93)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:48:38 PM EST
    almost NO ONE speaks grammatical English.
    The prepositions and pronouns may be ok, but the sentence construction will be sh*t.
    Probably especially so for elementary school teachers, who are poorly paid and often barely qualified (this I know for a fact about math, and I assume it's true for other subjects).
    Ask any  linguist---he'll tell you that written and spoken language are very different.
    The fact the rule applies narrowly to English teachers almost makes it worse, because you are guaranteeing to show that teachers are not competent in their specialty.

    Parent
    This new law (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:51:27 PM EST
    apparently targets teachers who teach Latino kids....

    Arizona recruited a lot of teachers from Latin America whose first language was Spanish to teach Arizona kids in Spanish.  Bilingual education needed Spanish speaking teachers.

    The law (or policy) changed and classes are now to be tauaght in English.  So, all the recruited teachers started teaching in accented English.  But the kids' first language was still Spanish.  I don't see how the kids are harmed by their teachers' accents.

    Some of the stuff coming out in this debate makes me more sad than angry.  I really don't get how threatened people are by Spanish or Latinos.  There is in fact no threat....

    Awhile ago, on a pier here in SoCal at night on the weekend, I overheard a caucasian woman express fear at all the Latinos on the pier--Saturday night and a lot of "them."  Her comment puzzled me.  The "them" were Latino families fishing off the pier.  Grandma, kids, the whole she-bang.  Nothing to fear.  If anything, they would be helpful to someone in need.....No gang-bangers....just people fishing on the pier.

    Tighten the borders, sure....But all this?  

    Parent

    MKS, I occasionally speak to my (none / 0) (#46)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:56:50 PM EST
    students in Spanish whe having non-class-related discussions-- in a university-- and I have had students scream, "speak English!" Those shouting at me to speak English don't fall into any racial/ethnic category except non-Latino.

    Parent
    My Spanish is so crummy now, (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:20:50 PM EST
    I like hearing others speak it--because it gives me a chance to get better....Back in the day, while traveling in Mexico, the locals thought I was definitely not Anglo, but I had some type of accent, so I wasn't Mexican....they thought I was from Argentina or Chile.  I always thought that was coolest thing--that I could fool them that way.

    But for some, they react like your students....What a shame....What a waste....If I could lead a life of leisure, I would spend it learning new languages....

    And, I think accents are cool.  In any language.  Boston v. New York.  Alabama v. Texas.  And, I am told Californians really do have an accent too--no way, dude!  And in Spanish too....Spain v. rural Mexico.  Puerto Rico v. Guatemala....    


    Parent

    Very cool (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by Zorba on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 06:08:16 PM EST
    I like accents, too, MKS.  Mr. Zorba and I have many friends and colleagues who were born in other countries, and they have many different accents.  (BTW, my high school Spanish teacher, who was originally from Panama, told me I spoke Spanish with a Cuban accent.  And my college Italian teacher, who was Italian, said I spoke Italian with a Roman accent.  So go figure.)  This whole "accents" thing is entirely bogus.  There are plenty of native-born Americans who may speak very well, but should not be teaching kids anything, under any circumstances.  A good teacher is a good teacher- look at the results.  The criterion should be the progress of his/her students, and I don't mean the idiotic mandated standardized tests that have arisen because of No Child Left Behind- I could come up with better, more meaningful measurements of student achievement- but then, they didn't ask me.  ;-)

    Parent
    When I was traveling around (none / 0) (#137)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 11:04:11 PM EST
    in the English countryside some years ago, most of the English people I met there literally didn't know what my accent was, only that I wasn't English.  They frequently thought I was Australian, and some country people thought I was Scottish!

    I should say as a result of clashing regional parental accents canceling each other out, I grew up with an almost totally "neutral" American English accent.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:47:05 PM EST
    I have gotten sales calls from American's with thick accents I could not easily understand what they were saying. They should have been fired for the same reason someone with a thick foreign accent should be fired for.

    Parent
    Full Disclosure... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:50:25 PM EST
    I am a native american, born to native american parents.  My official language is New York Slang English.

    Now why do I feel like I just hopped a border fence into a strange land?  I've never felt so foreign.

    Truly weird. (none / 0) (#43)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:53:20 PM EST
    Dude, watch that accent (none / 0) (#44)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:53:55 PM EST
    hey (none / 0) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 03:57:04 PM EST
    Now why do I feel like I just hopped a border fence into a strange land?

    welcome to my world

    Parent

    I feel like... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:01:24 PM EST
    looking up every US History and Civics teacher I ever had and saying "you lied to me!".

    Parent
    Native American (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:01:40 PM EST
    As in descendent from indigenous people, or native american aka native new yorker.. as in born and raised in NY...

    Parent
    Kdog, ain't you from Brooklyn? (none / 0) (#59)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:08:39 PM EST
    I'm axing youse...

    Parent
    Queens born... (none / 0) (#103)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:32:56 PM EST
    my man...and nah squeak, I'm just native to this island...of Irish and Lebanese descent.  American Mutt.

    Parent
    Actually the "ungrammatical" (none / 0) (#55)
    by observed on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:02:50 PM EST
    clause opens up a huge can of worms by itself.
    Who ISN'T ungrammatical in their spoken English?
    Bill Clinton, maybe.

    Bill can mesmerize (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:36:56 PM EST
    with his ability to reel off complex sentence after complex sentence....dependent clauses and all....

    And, yet, he can distill things down into understandable, bit-size ideas....Truly a gifted person.

    Parent

    As a copy editor who (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 11:09:16 PM EST
    does also a lot of transcription work, I can say authoritatively almost nobody.  Bill Clinton is better than most, but his endless strung-on clauses are problematic just by themselves.

    The current prez is actually pretty good, too, aside from a few maddening verbal tics, like the odious "The thing is, is that..."

    Parent

    My HS Spanish teacher (none / 0) (#58)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:08:22 PM EST
    was a German immigrant.

    Heh (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:09:39 PM EST
    Spanish taught in English with a German accent. Hilarity ensues.

    More likely, some actual learning I bet.

    Parent

    In a difficult economic time (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:37:58 PM EST
    with a lot of widespread discontent, unfocused rage, free floating anxiety and loss of confidence in leadership, it's important to give the folks a focus, an "outside" threat, some OTHER, or a host of OTHERS who aren't becoming part of "the great melting pot this country once was" quickly enough..

    Next stop, Kristallnacht; with the world's biggest Teaparty afterward. Then we go back to fighting 'em over there, so we dont have to fight 'em over here.

     

    Parent

    Ja. Aprendo mucho. (none / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:22:39 PM EST
    She once said my Spanish accent sounded Puerto Rican and not Castilian. I went to Catholic school in NJ, probably half the school was Puerto Rican or Cuban...

    Parent
    Heh. In Spain they think I'm from Colombia. (none / 0) (#75)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:27:56 PM EST
    In South America they think I'm Spanish. In Italy, they think I'm from Argentina.

    Bizarre for a redneck from a farm in lower Alabama.

    Parent

    alumnos, vamos a caminar. (none / 0) (#80)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:33:02 PM EST
    "Esta llamado 'el volksmarsch.' Si vamos al este, vencan uds polonia otra vez."

    Parent
    my english teacher (none / 0) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:14:42 PM EST
    had a very very strong arkansas accent.  just as funny actually.


    Parent
    My 9th grade French teacher was from east Texas. (none / 0) (#81)
    by caseyOR on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:34:29 PM EST
    Imagine our accents. The teacher we had the next year was nearly brought to tears, from laughter or horror I'm not sure, when she heard us speak French with that distinctive drawl.

    Parent
    Supposedly Americans (none / 0) (#87)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 04:38:41 PM EST
    who speak French really well have a Polish accent to French ears....

    Parent
    Here's an idea (none / 0) (#102)
    by dead dancer on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:30:35 PM EST
    The US could gift AZ to Mexico.

    Immigration problem solved.

    One hesitates to make predictions, (none / 0) (#105)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:46:52 PM EST
    but if past is prologue, here's my best guess:

    I think the rule's going to be upheld as facially neutral, AZ will target spanish-speaking English teachers, nobody will have the capability to sue merely for being transferred, eventually the policy will be applied to all teachers, eventually it will expand across all AZ, TX, NM, etc. schools, eventually it will expand to poor inner-city schools, and eventually there will be a "standard english" policy/exception in the case law for teachers, profs, etc. It's going to really, really suck in about 15-20 years.

    The problem is, the policy was probably written by a very clever lawyer who really gets Title VII law.  There are just so many problems unique to employment law here that if you don't know it, you're not going to understand the cleverness of what was done.

    First and foremost, those teachers aren't being fired, they're just being transferred to other classes. And that's likely not enough for them to sue on as it's not going to be an "adverse employment action", meaning demotion, termination, loss of pay, loss of seniority, things like that.

    It's a very, very clever -- maybe even brilliant -- beginning to the slippery slope I've described above. People should be more scared about this than they are contemptuous.

    I've really appreciated (none / 0) (#129)
    by ZtoA on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 08:31:46 PM EST
    your expertise about this - and the exchanges you and BTD have had. Its been very eye opening, challenging and troubling.

    Parent
    The article does suggest some merit to this purge (none / 0) (#106)
    by Mitch Guthman on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:51:32 PM EST
    I think I'm going to be the minority, dissenting voice here but after reading the article I don't see the problem with requiring teachers of children still acquiring language skills to be able to speak grammatically correct informal English.   Also, since this is apparently related to young children whose first language is Spanish, I think it goes pretty much without saying that their teachers should also be able to speak good, grammatically correct Spanish so that the children will be fluent and grammatical in both languages.   This is essential if these kids are to become  confident in their language skills and have to ability to write and speak formal English and Spanish as young adults.

    As to the accent (Spanish or American regional or whatever), if it's so strong as to make the teacher totally unintelligible then I don't think that teacher is really well suited for the job.  Otherwise, I don't see why it's any business of the state and it would obviously pointlessly disqualify many highly capable teachers such as, for example, Henry Kissinger (teaching international relations).

    Clearly, the view of the commentators on this post is this purge of teachers is just pretextual and driven by a nasty strain of nativism.  If that's the case, then I condemn it totally but if not, then I think it has merit in certain circumstances.

    For what's it's worth, that's also how I think a court would approach a Title VII challenge, too.

    AZ outlawed bilingual education (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 05:56:08 PM EST
    in a 2000 referendum.

    Pedagogy is the least of Arizona's actual concerns in this matter.

    Parent

    MA outlawed bilingual education (none / 0) (#121)
    by itscookin on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:23:07 PM EST
    in 2002. Outlawing it was a bad idea, especially for high school age students. Bilingual ed allowed them to progress in science, math, and history while they were acquiring English language skills. Immersion in English classes put everything else on hold while they learned to speak, read, and write English well enough to function in an academic setting. Many students whose first language was not English dropped out at the school where I taught when it became clear that they would not graduate "on time".

    Parent
    A reverse Jaime Escalante... (none / 0) (#123)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:26:09 PM EST
    Immersion works very well (none / 0) (#140)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 11:15:42 PM EST
    and is really the only sensible way to go with younger children.  But after the age of 10 or 11, the brain just doesn't work that way anymore.

    It's a troubling issue all around.  Do you stop other education flat for two or three years while you teach older children to become fluent in English?  If you don't and you teach them history and science in their native language, you're absolutely grossly slowing their acquisition of English.

    I don't know what the answer to this is.

    Parent

    But pedagogy will determine outcome of lawsuits (none / 0) (#127)
    by Mitch Guthman on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:54:27 PM EST
    Nevertheless, the requirement that a teacher (especially in what would appear to be an English immersion environment) be able to speak reasonably good, reasonably grammatical English is obviously sensible regardless of the nativist motivations of its advocates.   Similarly, a teacher ought to be able to communicate with his or her students.   I would have concerns about a teacher whose accent was so strong as to be unintelligible.  Surely these are legitimate concerns and one need not be a nativist or other sort of bigot to share them.  

    Which, I think, highlights the problem of proving a case under Title VII.  Although there are some cases regarding the imposition whether the use of certain types of qualifications or requirements is a pretext for discrimination, here I would guess that these two requirements would be universally seen as reasonable requirements to impose on teachers.  Assuming both that the governmental actors were careful in their public and private statements so that it was impossible to prove that their action were animated by racial animus but also assuming that the firings had a disparate impact on Hispanics, the plaintiff would be stuck with some kind of disparate impact analysis, which I think would be problematic given that these requirements did have such an obviously sound educational basis.

    Clearly, from what we are all reading about what's going on in Arizona (especially the de facto requirement that Hispanic looking people need to carry identity papers), I would have no difficulty in agreeing that the people advocating for these measures are resurgent Nativists.  But I don't think I could prove that the people who adopted the measures or who are involved in implements them are bigots.  But what we know counts for nothing in court----only what can be proven matters.

    It's hard to see how this plays out, however, if the ACLU and (for example) MALDEF are willing/able to devote sufficient resources to individual cases, which I think might be more productive.  While I do appreciate the value of teachers who are intelligible and speak good English, I see lots of problems with an effort to prove that a specific teacher is deficient in either regard.  Presumably these are all college education people who were considered qualified when they were hired by those same school districts who want to fire them today.   As to the question of accent, that seems even more subjective.  The telephone operator case notwithstanding, if Henry Kissinger can be a teacher with his accent, I think the school districts will have a very hard row to hoe.

    Also, I was surprised to hear that Arizona voted down bilingual education.  It seems to me that it would be very practical and desirable in a place like that.  Unlike California which there are lots of immigrants speaking many different languages (the argument of cost and practicality), my impression is that most of the non-English speakers are from Spanish-speaking countries, principally Mexico.   Another example of a red state slighting its economic interest in favor of religious or nativist emotions.


    Parent

    The article linked to (none / 0) (#119)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:21:47 PM EST
    didn't give many specifics of how a heavy accent was hurting the kids learning English.....The one example of pronouncing "violet" with a "b", basically switching a "v" for a "b," is so petty.  Doing that does not make one unitelligible....and is pretty common....

    The people who wrote this law do not appear to really have any idea how kids learn English in this country.....For Pete sake, most of the kids learning English have parents who aren't that good in English and yet learn English just fine....Having teachers who can empathize with the kids, who understand and like their ethnic background, and who encourage them, outweighs any accent issues....

    Regardless of the legality of the statute, it is just chock full of wrong ideas on learning....

    Parent

    Then the kids go home (none / 0) (#110)
    by Jen M on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 06:12:22 PM EST
    to parents with accents.

    Kids of immigrants learn the language. The younger they are the harder it is to stop them from learning the local language.  I've know American kids in Costa Rica and Brazil who's parents had problems making sure they could speak English.

    I lived in Germany (none / 0) (#141)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 11:21:04 PM EST
    for a year when I was 5.  This was not so long post-WWII.  I went to an American Army school and lived with my family-- pre-TV. So my exposure to German was solely in the course of daily life outside our apartment.  My dad spoke German fluently, but no one else in our family did.  So my exposure to German was really pretty limited.

    But the family legend is that I came home from the (German) movies one Saturday announcing that they were "putting more and more English" in the movies all the time. Of course, they were doing no such thing.  I was just picking up the language without really realizing it.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#147)
    by Jen M on Sat May 01, 2010 at 06:51:35 AM EST
    Yep. Kids are sponges.

    Parent
    Public opinion in Arizona? (none / 0) (#120)
    by abdiel on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 07:22:58 PM EST
    Anyone know how this is playing out there? I can see how some of this would get widespread support, but there's no way people support the law going this far, is there?

    Where is the Obama Administration (none / 0) (#128)
    by downtownted on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 08:13:26 PM EST
    on this? Why isn't the Justice Department first in filing Motions to restrain the Arizona crazies? Maybe when you get to be President and you are black, discrimination vanishes. I don't think discrimination ever vanishes. On this issue the Obama administration has vanished.

    Sorry, the Obama administration is doing something about Arizona. I just came across this news article:

    "Obama calls the Arizona law misguided. "If you don't have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you're going to get harassed - that's something that could potentially happen. That's not the right way to go," he said this week."

    Not only is it "something that could potentially happen." It seems to violate the civil rights acts. Eisenhower was white, and never discriminated against, but he enforced the law when "states rights" wack nuts went the other way. Eisenhower sent in the Army Airborne to see they didn't discriminate. I have been sorely disappointed because Obama turned out to be just another corporatist. But I am just amazed that the administration is doing nothing and hadn't planned to do anything about legalizing police stops for strolling while brown and walking while brown as well as driving while brown.

    Nothing to Do With Where You're Going (none / 0) (#133)
    by john horse on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 09:52:12 PM EST
    What is it with politicians like Duncan Hunter? They can't see beyond what a person looks like or how he talks.  Where you come from has nothing to do with where you're going.  How you look has nothing to do with the type of person you are.  Instead of focusing on someone's accent maybe they need to focus on the substance of the speech.  

    Politicians like Duncan Hunter thinks that they are the true Americans.  I've got news for him.  Americans come in more than one shade.  Being an American has nothing to do with what you look like.  If there is one thing that is "unAmerican" than that thing is prejudice.  And that makes Duncan Hunter a lesser person than the people he looks down on.

    Anyone here heard of TOEFL? (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Fri Apr 30, 2010 at 10:11:06 PM EST
    (I hope I recall that acronym correctly.)

    It is a test in English fluency -- especially spoken English -- required by many U.S. campuses for incoming graduate students applying for teaching assistantships in this country.

    I wonder if AZ may be able to use that as a precedent. . . .

    Why is Arizona teaching a foreign (none / 0) (#145)
    by observed on Sat May 01, 2010 at 12:55:26 AM EST
    language (English) to AMERICAN students, anyway?
    They should be teaching American, and preferably Nativist American.


    All Accents Or Just Hispanic? (none / 0) (#148)
    by john horse on Sat May 01, 2010 at 07:52:20 AM EST
    re:  teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes

    So will teachers who have a heavy Southern accent going to be removed?  What about New England accents?  Or Brooklyn?  Or Hawaiian?  Or Texan?  Or Alaskan (you betcha')?  Or Minnesotan?  

    You know I'm even willing to bet that there some people in Arizona speak with a heavy Arizonan accent.  Are they going to remove themselves?