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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

I've already written up what interests me this morning and am now leaving for work. BTD is off doing hearings this week.

If there's political or other news you want to discuss, here's the place -- an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Interesting diary (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 11:35:57 AM EST
    over at dkos on Tom Coburn who is normally a hatemongering fool:

    I did not believe my eyes, when I read what he told a woman in the audience who asked him if it was illegal for the government to jail citizens for not complying with the new health care law, Coburn responded by blaming TV news, and Fox News in particular, for that false rumor:

    "The intention is not to put anybody in jail," Coburn said. "That makes for good TV news on Fox, but that isn't the intention."

    Later when the audience stated to boo Nancy, the good senator said --

    "Come on now... how many of you all have met her? She's a nice person," Coburn said. "Just because somebody disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're not a good person."

    "Don't catch yourself being biased by Fox News that somebody's no good," Coburn added.



    Memo: Better check Coburn's basement... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by desertswine on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 11:51:22 AM EST
    for pods.

    Parent
    Somebody must have sprinkled (none / 0) (#25)
    by Radiowalla on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:13:49 PM EST
    some Prozac in his tea.

    Parent
    Tragedy in W. Virginia (none / 0) (#1)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:00:00 AM EST
    MONTCOAL, W.Va. (AP) -- Rescue teams planned to search again Tuesday for four workers missing in a coal mine where a massive explosion killed 25 in the worst U.S. mining disaster in more than two decades, though officials said the chances were slim that the miners survived, and the search may not be able to start again until evening.
    link


    The owners see their workers as expendable (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by esmense on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:46:58 PM EST
    ...maybe that's to be expected. What I find unforgiveable, and once would have found unthinkable, is that the majority of "average" Americans today appear to share that attitude.

    Parent
    New (none / 0) (#2)
    by lentinel on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:04:25 AM EST
    violence in Iraq.

    We ain't goin' nowhere, folks.

    I was hoping we'd admit we can't fix it (none / 0) (#3)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:26:22 AM EST
    and leave. After the Mighty Surge 'worked' what else is there?

    Parent
    Meg Whitman putting up another $20M of her (none / 0) (#4)
    by Angel on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:43:38 AM EST
    fortune in the Calirofrnia governor's race....she's now given her campaign $59M.  Will we ever get back to a time when regular people can be elected to a position of service?  

    I will never understand that kind of ambition (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:54:23 AM EST
    If I had that much money the last thing I would want to do with it is become governor of California. And she is not even a life-long pol.

    Part of whatever low level midlife crisis I might be having is that I've been thinking a lot about what I've done with my life and talents - am I wasting time, should I have done something else, or better at what I did do, etc. At some point you do look around and see people that seem to have a much better life, one that you might have had.

    But I've never thought I should be governor of California!

    Parent

    How Obama filled out his census (none / 0) (#6)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:58:24 AM EST
    form has angered a group of (apparently former, now) young followers, as I learn from following their discussion online.  They are mixed-race and expected, from his campaign use of his own mixed background, that he would check off that box.

    But he checked only his African American heritage.  

    Btw, one of the young mixed-race commenters has posted Obama family photos, and one of him as a boy with his (white) grandfather is fascinating.  I only had seen photos of that grandfather when he was elderly.  However, this photo has him closer to Obama's age now -- and guess who the president looks like?  

    also (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 09:31:12 AM EST
    if Obama's checkmark on the census is all it took for these people to defect, then I question their commitment in the first place.

    Parent
    Oh, I know. As I noted (none / 0) (#11)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 09:50:23 AM EST
    they are so young.

    So they will return to the polls as sadder but wiser voters, and that will be better for us all.

    It is understandable, when you learn more about the background of the census and about such Americans who fought for better options on the forms, that they identified so much with a mixed-race candidate who talked about that so much.  So although others here do not agree, I think that it is entirely understandable that they are disappointed now.

    Read almost any history book about this country through their eyes, and they are almost invisible.

    Parent

    I don't know (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 10:05:39 AM EST
    who these kids are.  I'm guessing they are in college so a high level of education suggests that they're not dumb.  All the same some people just take silly views when it comes to politics.  Plenty of intelligent people didn't want to vote for Hillary simply because she was a Clinton or of an older generation or whatever.  Lots of people of all ages just don't have a coherent political outlook.  I am not reading the comments but as a 24 year old I look around and see ignorant people young and old.  There are plenty to spare.

    Identity politics cannot be the be all and end all of politics.  


    Parent

    Actually, many are in their '40s (none / 0) (#15)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 10:20:00 AM EST
    -- which to me is "young" (I didn't say "kids").

    And I would have to agree with them that many of us are the ignorant ones about the point that they make.

    Parent

    I don't see any other choice (none / 0) (#34)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    on the form that would be accurate for Obama. He selected the one that was appropriate. Wondering what those who were offended thought he was supposed to check.

    Parent
    See the instructions, which tell you (none / 0) (#39)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:21:54 PM EST
    to check one or more boxes that apply.  

    Parent
    Let's play Blood Quantum!!! (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:35:10 PM EST
    Is it OK if I don't check Native American if I don't feel Native American?  Or do I have to because the instructions say so?

    check one or more.

    Parent

    Heh - it's one of those multiple (none / 0) (#85)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:40:51 PM EST
    choice question I have answered so many times in my life, I just go looking for the one that applies to me and skip the instructions.

    Parent
    And I ought to have added (none / 0) (#16)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 10:20:53 AM EST
    as to their education level, that they are the ones teaching college -- this is a group of Ph.D.'s.

    Parent
    heh. We both know a lot of PhD holders (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 10:23:43 AM EST
    whose claim to fame was being good at going to school. Outside of their specialty, they are egregiously uncritical in thinking and action.

    Sigh. I wish a doctorate meant somebody was smart. Too often it means the holder has slight to moderate OCD.

    Parent

    My, but there is a defensiveness (3.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 10:49:59 AM EST
    here from so many commenters about this . . . and now going on the usual anti-intellectual offensive.

    Interesting, too.  Ah, well, off I go to waste society's time spreading education, when it would be so much better to leave the masses ignorant.

    The question, of course, is then:  Who would that serve?  And why aspire to be among them?

    Parent

    educate me: (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 11:20:14 AM EST
    I can understand the sense of frustration that mixed-race people may feel with Obama's answer.  But what is your point?  That Obama checking off "mixed race" on the census would've validated efforts to change the census...efforts that apparently stopped at taking "Negro" off of it?

    Do you think these people went to the polls only to support Obama because they thought he would eventually identify as mixed-race on the census?  Nothing else drove them to vote?

    What are they learning from this experience that in your estimation will make them wiser voters?

    It's hard to understand your point when you have simultaneously taken their side and in my view insulted them.

    Parent

    How in the world (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:24:58 PM EST
    have I insulted them?  Oh, forgeddaboutit -- I find what they have to teach me fascinating; you do not.

    (You also do not understand that the census form has been changed, so they wonder why Mr. Obama does not take advantage of that hard-won fight to show just how marvelously multicultural, not either/or, is this country.  Take a look at the form. . . .)

    Parent

    If I had a better sense (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:33:52 PM EST
    of what they were saying I may very well find it fascinating.  Unfortunately your condescending comments about how young and naive they are sort of obscure what I'm supposed to get out of it.

    Parent
    Cream, I'm in one of those Ivy-covered buildings (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:34:12 PM EST
    as I write this. Intellectualism doesn't defend narrow thinking. I'm certainly not accusing you of narrow thiking, but among the educated class, I have certainly noticed some tunnel vision!

    As it stands, most academics were and are good at school. but an academic position in, say English, or even sociology (my discipline) doesn't make one an intellectual, it makes one a professor. Critical thinking outside of our chosen disciplines frequently devolves to boundary maintenance.

    Parent

    Sure, I know -- but it just (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:18:51 PM EST
    sometimes sounds here too much like what we hear from Rush, Glenn, et al., too.  It's such an easy way to dismiss a point made by pointing at the messenger, not the message.

    It's a tinfoil-in-the-microwave trick to arc discussion away from the point.

    And that certainly has worked well here.

    Parent

    Do you think the President sat down and (none / 0) (#130)
    by esmense on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:00:19 PM EST
    filled out this form himself? I personally doubt it. Still, the White House political team probably weighed the options understanding that however this part of the form was filled out someone or other could be disappointed or offended.

    I have younger, mixed raced relatives for whom Obama's seemingly successful navigation and overcoming of the complications and divided loyalties inherent in that situation provides inspiration and encouragement. For them it's probably a bit disappointing to see him (the most powerful man in the nation, after all) bow to the cultural pressure people of mixed race constantly confront -- to choose, in a situation in which only false choices are possible. (A choice which demands disloyalty to or denial of some of the people who most love you and who you most love.)

    Yet, for the many others who take immense and rightful pride in and encouragement from the election of our first "black" President checking the "other" box would seem like a different kind of denial and disloyalty.

    Just one more absurdity created by our sad racial history.

    Parent

    Entirely possible Michelle filled it out (none / 0) (#165)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 10:58:35 AM EST
    Certainly that is the most logical explanation that fits all the facts.

    Parent
    Michelle? (none / 0) (#172)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 12:42:29 PM EST
    You really think either one of the Obama's filled out the census form for their family? I would be astonished if they did. You think it was mailed to them, and they got the preview letter and the followup letter, too?


    Parent
    Obama filled it (none / 0) (#173)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 12:52:43 PM EST
    :) Well, could be a photo op (none / 0) (#176)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 03:49:27 PM EST
    to encourage the younger population to do theirs. Envision it...."Okay, you can snap one photo, then get out of the room so he can concentrate. If he's distracted, he may miss an important instruction." Or, maybe they just stayed and watched until he was done.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#69)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:10:49 PM EST
    I've seen PhD's at the school I attend that are brilliant at their science but couldn't rub two common sense brain cells together if it meant life or death! But they are certainly elitist about what their Education should mean to the rest of us!

    I once saw someone comment somewhere else that displaced PhD's are not going to "want to start over again as plumbers" (but then mentioning that there's nothing wrong with being a plumber! (LOL)

    Two things wrong:  

    1.  The implication that the school of "hard knocks" is much easier than grad school, and thus PhD's should be treated to a different standard than the rest of us.  People in all careers have to educate themselves.  Some do it in school, some on the job.

    2. The implication that starting over again is okay for the rest of us, but not for PhD's!

    Anyway, I digress.  I find little value in the alphabet soup of education per se.  People have to prove that they're worthy of my respect.

     

    Parent

    Well, so sorry that these people (none / 0) (#76)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:20:27 PM EST
    can't prove themselves to you, but I have followed their discussions on many points, and they have taught me much.  So they have my respect, anyway, and raised a point that I found worthy of thought.

    Others' mileage varies here, obviously.

    Parent

    Mixed Race? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 11:03:54 AM EST
    Are you serious? Race is a social construct. To have to check a box about what race you are is entirely subjective. I usually check other as I have not gotten the blood test yet which identifies my race.

    And I am not sure what your point is here. Are you chastising Obama for checking the wrong box? Or are you chastising the "young" for voting for Obama and now you get to say
    'I told you so'?

    IMO, many people act in peculiar ways. This may be a shocker to you but many people in America would get turned off to someone if they found out that they were Muslim. I know it is hard to believe how irrational people are when it comes to deciding that they love or hate someone. Look at the primaries, here at TL for example.

    Parent

    IMO there's only one race (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Farmboy on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 11:33:35 AM EST
    human.

    If the subject under discussion is really a matter of culture, heritage, birthplace, ethnicity, identity, etc., then the census should use those terms.

    If it's skin color they want, maybe there ought to be a scale ranging from powdered doughnut to triple espresso.

    Parent

    powedered donut...lol (none / 0) (#24)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:12:32 PM EST
    that is much nicer than my usual claim to being "dead trout white". I think I will use your term from now on.

    ps... it is not just your opinion, sociologists and biologists agreed many years ago that there is only one race.
    Obama is African American like I am German and English American.  He BTW, is also English American.

    Parent

    You folks are parsing (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:22:34 PM EST
    Obama is of "mixed race" as far as what the Census is looking for.

    We all know that. By checking African American he continues to send a message to the America that he feels slighted him as a youth.

    That would be a sad situation for anyone.

    For a President it is frightening. Post American anyone?

    Me? I'm just your typical Scot-Irish-French-Hungarian-English-Native American Blue Blood.

    Parent

    Supremacist? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:31:45 PM EST
    We all know that. By checking African American he continues to send a message to the America that he feels slighted him as a youth.

    So conversely, by checking the White box, are you sending a message "to the America" (sic), that you are a white supremacist?

    Parent

    Nice snark, squeaky (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:17:58 PM EST
    And no. By checking white I gave the census what information it was looking for.

    But if I had checked "mixed race" I would have been trying to make a political statement, just as Obama was making a political statement when he checked "African American."

    And I do hope you aren't too sic... lol

    Parent

    Not Political? (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:38:32 PM EST
    If you are from the South, and your family has been here for several generations, then you are more than likely mixed race, according to your own definition.

    But then again, if all the above is true you are probably aware of the "one drop rule". All who passed for "white" including your own family, evidentially, would never check mixed, because the "one drop rule" would have made them black even if there were no "negroid" signs in their appearance.

    Parent

    comments like these (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:54:33 PM EST
    make me so glad the following is true:

    Minorities make up nearly half the children born in the U.S., part of a historic trend in which minorities are expected to become the U.S. majority over the next 40 years.

    as for "the America that slighted him in his youth" let's discuss.

    Barack Obama:  born August 4, 1961

    The Jim Crow laws were state and local laws in the United States enacted between 1876 and 1965.

    The Civil Rights Act of 1964



    Parent
    Yes, he was slighted (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:23:19 PM EST
    both in Indonesia as well as in Hawaii.

    But if he is to be President of the US then it would be helpful if he acknowledged that his election is the result of a tidal wave of corrections by the race of his mother and the grandparents who raised him.

    By failing to do so he cheapens himself and the office.

    Parent

    lol (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:36:30 PM EST
    it would be helpful if he acknowledged that white people allowed him to be President?  OK.

    Parent
    No, and I think you work (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:58:50 PM EST
    at misunderstanding.

    By claiming to be African American he denies that his maternal side did a lot of good things to make up for a lot of bad things.

    And by looking at his actions re England, France, Germany, etc., it does appear that he has a grudge.

    Now, excuse me. The garden at the Palatial Retirement Compound needs my attention!

    Parent

    Maybe we should ask (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:08:51 PM EST
    "re England, France, Germany.." who they have more respect for, Obama or that he-ro of yours from Crawford?

    Parent
    I see that you are keeping up with the polls (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:41:15 PM EST
    lol

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:29:05 PM EST
    You have some proof, of any kind, that Bush was-is popular anywhere in Europe? SDTs out poll Bush in Europe.


    Parent
    here is a suggestion (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:10:15 PM EST
    read the first 40 or so pages of "Dreams From My Father."  You can do it online for free at scribd.  Maybe then you'll know what you are talking about.

    At some point, then, in spite of a stubborn desire to protect myself from scrutiny, in spite of the periodic impulse to abandon the entire
    project, what has found its way onto these pages is a record of a personal, interior journey--a boy's search for his father, and through that search a workable meaning for his life as a black American.

    Where people are getting the idea that Obama did not identify as African American I do not know.  I always thought that was pretty clear - though mixed race, he identified as AA/black.

    Your foreign policy read is uh....hmm...what's the word...


    Parent

    Again (1.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 10:05:40 AM EST
    -- it is not a dichotomy anymore on census forms. One can identify as both African American and mixed-race, as he did in the campaign but did not do on the form.  That's all that this is about in the initial discussion noted -- not the discussion here, which is more confused (and much less civil).

    Parent
    There seems to be an unwillingness (none / 0) (#162)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 10:31:04 AM EST
    or an inability to underrstand that the Census form does not ask people to reflect upon the totality of their lives and experiences and pick a race they identify with - it simply asks, for every member of the household, "What is Person [1]'s Race?"

    It then provides some 14 possibilities, and includes spaces to write in more specific and identifying information; this is not like the old days, when there were so few choices people really were in a quandary about what to select.

    I made a comment somewhere in this thread, that is seemed like, by choosing only "African American," Obama was rejecting his white lineage.  I posited that not just because he was not constrained by instructions to choose only one, but as a mother who, if my children who were of mixed race, might feel rejected by that child choosing to declare that she was the race of her father, period, and making no acknowledgment of an entire line of family.

    The race Obama chooses to identify with is a choice that evolved over a period of time when his father was absent, and the people who were his family were predominantly white, or Indonesian.  It's possible there is this tangled psychological struggle going on, whereby Obama has embraced the race of his father as a means of denying his father's rejection of him and his mother, and he has cast aside the race of his mother and grandparents, whom he perhaps blames for his father not being part of his life.

    Regardless, the Census form does not ask the participants to delve deeply into their psyches before checking a box - or two or three - on the participant`s race, and I don't know why that is creating such difficulty for people or why they feel it necessary to defend Obama's choice.

    I can play that game, too, but I don't think the Census had in mind that such a simple question, with so many choices, would stir up this much confusion/conversation.


    Parent

    The purpose of the Census (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 01:25:48 PM EST
    is not to collect biological data.  To what end would I write on the Census that I am Native American, as I do not participate in the tribe from which I am descended, and have only 1/16th Native American blood?  It is accurate but I choose not to write it down.  Instead I write down what race I feel that I am - which social construct I apply to myself.

    The race Obama chooses to identify with is a choice that evolved over a period of time when his father was absent, and the people who were his family were predominantly white, or Indonesian.  It's possible there is this tangled psychological struggle going on, whereby Obama has embraced the race of his father as a means of denying his father's rejection of him and his mother, and he has cast aside the race of his mother and grandparents, whom he perhaps blames for his father not being part of his life.

    Why psychoanalyze the President?  Like I said above, he wrote a book on this very subject, and you can even read the first 45 pages online.

    Obama grew up in a different time.  The first census he filled out did not have the option to mark one or more races.  He could've done so this year, but I understand why he wouldn't.  

    Parent

    My point was, is and will be (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:40:29 PM EST
    that he defines himself based on his childhood experiences. That isn't exactly a profound or unusual observation.

    Many would say that we don't need a President who is seeking to establish his identity by doing things that disrespect our allies or too much respect to quasi-enemies.

    And the word you are looking for is intelligent.

    Parent

    PPJ, you are just (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:58:40 PM EST
    making stuff up....based on a supposed racial interpretation of his foreign policy.

    You and Rush.....

    Parent

    Oh yes (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 09:03:44 AM EST
    Obama is the only person on Earth who draws elements of his personality from his child.  Only one.

    IMO a lot of his identity is based on his experiences as a man, which he has spoken about before:  the positive experience of being part of the AA community, and the negative experiences of being AA, such as racial profiling.  

    Parent

    PPJ, GlennBeckian nonsense (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:31:33 PM EST
    By failing to do so.. (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:49:46 PM EST
    one check mark you dont like undoes every other movement of reconciliation and cooperation?

    Speaking of cheapening oneself, what do we say about those who carry grudges to such length that they look to latch onto any petty excuse to justify it?

    Parent

    You will have to ask Obama (1.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:51:26 PM EST
    Or, go to Tall Cotton (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:59:12 PM EST
    and find out where you're really coming from, Hannity.

    Parent
    Of course not (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:44:57 PM EST
    but ignoring actions don't make them go away.

    Many say that Obama is a narcissist. At the risk of engaging in psychobabble without a license I can't disagree.

    And I haven't the slightest as to what "we say."
    Or do you have a mouse in your pocket?

    Parent

    Obama has said that (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:29:45 PM EST
    he is African American because that is the box that society puts him in....He accepted that long ago....

    You make too big deal about it....and sound like Glenn Beck--that Obama hates white people....

    Parent

    I didn't say that at all. (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:50:30 PM EST
    Just that he wants to send a message.

    Remember that during the election he did not want to be referred to by his middle name, yet used it during the swearing in ceremony.

    My view of him is that he truly believes he can do what he wants and that he is restrained only by his own desires or lack thereof

    Not unusual. Shrinking violets don't become President. But some hide it better than others.

    As for the "box," so much for the changey thing.

    Parent

    All I remember (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:22:57 PM EST
    is that he didnt want to be called "Hussein" (as if it were his full name) by certain wingnut bloggers who were obviously attempting attempting to exploit Islamophobia and spread the meme that "weak on defense" liberal Democrats secretly want to destroy America.

    Your continued insistence that Obama has a secret "grudge" is of a piece with that other nonsense.

    Parent

    I am surprised that, after his annoucements (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:56:47 PM EST
    re nuclear weapons and delivery systems and telling everyone we won't use them for ABC attacks that you actually want to bring the subject up.

    But be my guest. Please.

    Parent

    Crickets here re that announcement. (none / 0) (#154)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:58:27 PM EST
    Why am I not surprised? (none / 0) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:19:54 PM EST
    I just lectured on this subject (none / 0) (#53)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:41:27 PM EST
    today.

    Parent
    Ugh. Meant to reply to liburro @31 (none / 0) (#54)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:41:59 PM EST
    @jeffinalabama (none / 0) (#59)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:54:44 PM EST
    go on (well, if you want to).  Sounds interesting.

    Parent
    Just an intro sociology (none / 0) (#64)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:01:05 PM EST
    lecture on the racial caste system in the USA. it includes Plessy v. Fergusun through the NAACP v. Dothard decision in 1973 ( I think it was 73...)-- an alabama-centric case.

    some discussion on the declining importance of race as caste, but all in all a lecture students don't listen too closely to, sigh.

    Parent

    For a Presidnt it is frightening.. (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:54:38 PM EST
    particularly when you're already going through two boxes of Depends a week in anticipation of the radical muslim invasion..

    And lets not forget, as it says at your site, "there are no moderate Democrats"

    Parent

    Thank you for the kind words (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:25:59 PM EST
    Only two? Gosh, must have bought the super jumbo package last week at my favorite store, WalMart.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Whiteness Studies (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:34:16 PM EST
    I get it now, Took me a while, because I do not watch Glenn Beck, or check on the regurgitations of his hate speech in the wingnut blogosphere. But I can see now that is where you are coming from:

    Glenn Beck excels at expressing adventurous thoughts in memorable language, but he outdid himself when, one morning last summer, he offered a diagnosis of President Obama. He said, "This President, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people, or the white culture. I don't know what it is.

    Read more:

    Just happened on an excellent book review on the subject of race:

    But what of it? Why is it that, from Christian Lander to Jon Stewart, a diagnosis of whiteness is often delivered, and received, as a kind of accusation? The answer is that the diagnosis is often accompanied by an implicit or explicit charge of racism. It's become customary to suppose that a measure of discrimination is built into whiteness itself, a racial category that has often functioned as a purely negative designation: to be white in America is to be not nonwhite, which is why it was possible, in 1961, for a white woman from Kansas living in Hawaii to give birth to a black baby. In a marvellously splenetic essay, "On Being White . . . And Other Lies," James Baldwin argued that America had, really, "no white community"--only a motley alliance of European immigrants and their descendants, who made a "moral choice" (even if they didn't realize it) to join a synthetic racial élite.

    Read more:

    Long before it had any sort of coherent cultural or historical identity, whiteness in America was a broad, loosely defined political category, which is precisely why so many scholars knocked themselves out trying to fill in the details.


    Parent
    I have no idea what you are writing about, (none / 0) (#87)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:42:43 PM EST
    Squeaky, and if you're inferring Glenn Beck's ideas to me, you have no clue. race as caste is one of the five main theoretical approaches that exist in race and ethnicity studies in sociology. I'd suggest reading Banton's "Racial Theories." It's available in asecond or third edition. It was required reading for comprehensive examinations sfor the PhD some 15 years ago. Traces the social construction of race from the 1600s to the present.

    Parent
    Check YOur Browser Settings (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:49:35 PM EST
    I was responding to ppj, not you.

    Parent
    Since I haven't mentioned Beck (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:09:15 PM EST
    or race as a caste, or whatever, I haven't the slightest what you are blathering about.

    I doubt that you do.

    And since I don't listen/watch Beck I don't even know if you are quoting him correctly.

    But a nice 200 word quote or something, I guess.

    Now, if you keep this up shall I refer us to the time you gave a definitive statement on your beliefs in accuracy????????????

    Parent

    Go For It Mr "Blueblood" (none / 0) (#135)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:19:48 PM EST
    Your comments say way more about yourself than anyone else.

    Parent
    Well, one of you says he didn't and (none / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:58:39 PM EST
    one of you says he did...

    Shall we flip a coin?

    Parent

    It's because of the scientific definition of (none / 0) (#27)
    by Farmboy on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:25:26 PM EST
    "race" that I don't think it's appropriate to use it to describe groups of people. If scientifically there is only one race of humans, then using the term to categorize folks, say by skin color, implies that one group is human and the others are not.

    Parent
    Are you confusing 'species' with 'race' maybe? (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:45:36 PM EST
    There is only one human species - Homo sapiens.

    'Race' is fairly meaningless, biologically.

    Parent

    That the term is meaningless in that sense (none / 0) (#36)
    by Farmboy on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:08:56 PM EST
    is exactly what I meant. It's my understanding that taxonomically speaking, race is equivalent to subspecies. However, as there are no subspecies within homo sapiens, we are all one race. And that's why I find the term a poor substitute for ethnicity, culture, etc.

    Parent
    But as a social construction (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:52:24 PM EST
    race does have meaning. Even if the term has been reified, its reified meaning is certainly a part of today's social terrain.

    It goes back to W.I. Thomas: "the things men (sic) perceive as real are real in their consequenses."

    Parent

    I'm just one of those people who believe (none / 0) (#169)
    by Farmboy on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 11:38:28 AM EST
    that if it's broke, then fix it. If you can't fix it yourself, put up a sign warning others that it's broke until it gets fixed.

    Parent
    It's the government's term (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    and the term that, apparently, the president used in the campaign, so that is used in the discussion.

    Myself, I prefer the term heritage.  The form uses origin, which is good, too.

    But then the results often are extrapolated with use of the term race.  Of course, it is only a social construct.  

    But then, so is every word for everything we see.

    Parent

    See, I don't see need to chastise (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:26:18 PM EST
    at all.  I know your mileage differs.

    I just find it fascinating for discussion -- as I see this as a discussion forum, not a chastisement chat.

    Parent

    OK (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:44:38 PM EST
    Provocative subject and your particular framing implies that Obama is turning on his "kind". Which interestingly enough ties into a very common, and oft repeated theme here.

    Parent
    Not my framing -- (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:22:57 PM EST
    and not my issue, but I find it useful to know how others are framing and thinking in our society, about which I still learn more every day. . . .

    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:42:07 PM EST
    I do not think that you can post a comment like you did and make believe that you are neutral, because you have an extremely well documented position at TL on Obama, which coincidentally jives with the positions of the young folk you describe in your comment.

    Also your comment can hardly be described as being neutral as it comes from a political position of being white and talking about the "others".  

    Parent

    There ya go again, squeaks. (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:31:07 PM EST
    You go out of your way to miss the favorable points I have made about my president.  That doesn't fit your framing, I know.

    I find it fascinating -- one reason I am here -- to find out how others are viewing a historic presidency.  And I find some of the views, such as this group's view, unexpected and instructive.  

    And as it happens, I also can opt to check one "or more" boxes.  But I say no more about myself, because your ilk is worrisome here.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:04:47 PM EST
    I am not going out of the way to miss anything. All I am saying is that your comment comes with baggage, that is unavoidable as your history at TL is long and deep.

    You have spoken quite disparagingly about Obama's "followers",  usually characterized as Obots at TL, and you have often reveled in a 'I told you so' moment when Obots see Obama as you do.

    And yes, I have noticed that you are starting to enjoy a more nuanced view of Obama.

    As far as the mixed race issue, no way you were approaching the subject as one of "them", sorry that does not wash.

    Parent

    How dare you decide (1.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 10:47:29 AM EST
    that I am not allowed to acknowledge all of my heritages/origins when I fill out my census?!

    You really, really don't know me.  But I know all about your ilk, unfortunately.

    Parent

    Dare? (none / 0) (#178)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 08, 2010 at 09:27:07 AM EST
    How dare you decide that I am not allowed to acknowledge all of my heritages/origins when I fill out my census?!

    That is a laugh, nothing daring in my response to you.

    As for the rest I am not deciding anything about how you fill out your census form. I am pointing out that your are as mixed race as Obama is, yet you write as if that is other peoples "interesting" problem.

    Parent

    Cream City, I think it's clear (none / 0) (#120)
    by shoephone on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:13:40 PM EST
    you will not be receiving a complimentary i-pad for your birthday.

    Parent
    Snort. It would be one of those gifts (4.33 / 6) (#129)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:59:52 PM EST
    that would have to be opened underwater, with us wearing asbestos suits.

    Honestly, it just is so unpleasant here lately, having to wade through so much of the automatic stuff to get to the commenters with something new to say.

    Parent

    CC, (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:50:31 PM EST
    Why do you hate America?

    /snark

    Parent

    Did ya ever notice .... (4.50 / 6) (#35)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:03:53 PM EST
    ... that the one's who have the craziest theories and whine the most about others being obsessed with the primaries are the very ones who inject it into every discussion?

    Pretty funny ...

    Parent

    I think... (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:45:26 PM EST
    the species needs to get busy gettin' busy till there is only one box on the damn forms:)

    The topics of race and heritage and bloodlines are interesting to discuss and study and all...I sure get a kick outta the origins of my family and my mixed heritage...but if you attach too much importance to it, or take it too seriously...all it does is divide us. Easier said than done with the terrible history of discrimination and oppression, but eventually we gotta turn the corner.

    PS...Nice to see you guys bangin' intellects same as ever...but try to be kind to each other:)

    Parent

    How was your trip, K-Dog? (none / 0) (#93)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:09:11 PM EST
    The vacation, I mean.  Ahem.

    Parent
    A-Friggin'-Mazing.... (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:30:30 PM EST
    Dadler...hope the Canyon was as well.

    I thought I had it bad before...man o' man do I have it bad now.  Mi tesuro es un sueno.

    We switched things up on the fly in the Yucatan...never got to Veracruz and spent all our time there.  Playa Del Carmen, Tulum, Chichen Itza, Coba, Valladolid, Isla Mujeres and Cancun.  In 2 words...que rico!

    Really liked Guadalajara...that city has some music scene.  I heard a little bit of everything...salsa, reggae, blues, jazz, punk...and of course, mariachi.  A truly international city, reminded me of the NY in some ways.

    The people were grand all over...so friendly, so happy, so welcoming.

    Y La Comida...delicioso!  I gotta find a Tapatio in NY that serves Torta Ahugado...its a mighty fine sandwich.

    Can't wait to go back...Mexico jived with my constitution like beans and rice.  Plan is to continue self-imposed hermitude and save for a rapid return.

    Parent

    Oh, do tell more re your reaction (none / 0) (#103)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:32:33 PM EST
    to Chichen Itza.  It was mindbending and marvelous for me.

    And Isla de Mujeres?  Did you get on the fast ferry from Cancun to get there, after all?  

    Parent

    Chichen was heavy... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:50:24 PM EST
    CC...though we were slightly disappointed that part of the site was closed off because of the big Elton John concert a couple days after we left.  The local Mayans hawking souvenirs weren't thrilled about the show either.  And no more climbing the pyramid @ Chichen:(  But those few gripes aside...I could almost sense the ghosts of the ancient civiliation...the NY of the Mayan empire...chills.

    I liked the ruins at Coba better...more jungle & quiet, less crowded...and you can still climb the pyramid.  Crazy.

    Thank you so much for the Isla reco...you know me too well, just my speed.  More Mexican tourists than American in Isla.  Playa Norte... hoppin' from cantina to cantina...and the food in the plaza there was outstanding...dos mas carne asada por favor, do mas pescado!  And the sunset...romantic as all hell.  

    Plus, that was were I met two Argentian guitar strumming travelers who sorted me out with some smoke outta there stash...cool dudes.

    Parent

    A few GC snaps (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:52:22 PM EST
    Photos

    BTW, our friends who have literally driven or biked around the globe still say Mexico was their favorite country to travel through.  

    Parent

    What was more odd for us... (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:54:48 PM EST
    ...is the realization it might be our last vacation as a threesome, as we're probably going to adopt a 7 year-old girl out of the foster care system soon.  We meet her for the first time on Friday.  Hopefully she doesn't take one look at me in the flesh and scream in horror.  Seriously, cross your fingers for all of us, the adoption process has been long and, sometimes, frustrating, but seems to be coming to a beautiful conclusion.

    Parent
    Oh, good luck (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:14:21 PM EST
    and bravo to you.

    Parent
    Congratulations (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by shoephone on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:17:30 PM EST
    Good luck for the new configuration of your family. You're doing a good thing, and I appreciate you and your wife from afar.

    Parent
    Thank you (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:33:02 PM EST
    It's been a long road, wondering if we were ever going to get matched with a child, dealing with the beauracracy, our own doubts, worrying about the effect on Eli, but in our hearts we know it's something we need to do.  Strangley, I have lots of progressive friends who could not imagine doing what we are.  It scares them too much.  Which I understand, but I grew up in a lot of fractured madness, I can't imagine saying no to this girl now.

    Parent
    A friend is taking the county's adoption (none / 0) (#143)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:31:44 PM EST
    class.  My impression is she is not all that savvy about adoption via a county agency.  Must assume that is at least partially because the county class presents a rather rosy outlook.  Did you take the class?  

    Parent
    We took all the classes (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:41:00 PM EST
    PRIDE classes being the first required ones.  Parent Resources for Information, Development and Education is what it stands for.  It didn't paint a rosy picture necessarily in our case, and they point out plenty of troubles (mainly attachment disorders the children have developed, some severe, some less so), but we weren't coming in blind.  The fact of the matter is whenever you are adopting kids from the foster care system, you have to understand they are in the system, almost assuredly, because of significant issues of neglect and/or abuse.  Which is what scares most people off (that and the thought of the parents coming back to try and take them). A baby is a different matter, even if you go through the system, since babies haven't had the years of abuse and neglect, though many have prenatal issues related to maternal drug abuse or lack of prenatal care and nutrition (but mostly drugs).

    The bottom line is it all depends on each unique child, each unique family, and what they need.  

    I have noted during the process that my wife and I are anything but the typical family adopting out of the system.  A lot of church families, a lot of military, a lot of older folks looking to foster.  Very few college educated, upper middle class honkies like us.  Most want a nice white baby or a baby without having to jump through all the governmental hoops.

    But we've stuck it out and finally were matched.

     

    Parent

    Thanks. And I very much admire your (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:47:24 PM EST
    commitment.

    Parent
    Attachment Parenting Classes (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:54:43 PM EST
    You might recommend these for your friend, as they really go into the work required to heal the emotional wounds these children have.  Hell, I'm 43, and my mother is about to get married for the fifth time, and lemme tell you, ask my wife, I don't wanna attach at all to this guy, even though he seems nice and well adjusted and fine.  So you can imagine what a child goes through.  The little girl we've been matched with is 7 and has already lived in 9 different foster and group homes.  Really incredible that she hasn't been diagnosed with a severe emotional disorder.  Most children are incredibly resilient if given the love and support and structure they need.

    On we go.

    Parent

    My friend is single, never married, 44 yrs. (none / 0) (#150)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:34:49 PM EST
    old.  Has wanted to have children with the "right" guy, etc.  Doesn't have the $$ for private adoption or in vitro, etc.  She tells me the county completely redid the dependency/adoption system since I worked in juvenile court.  And that there are very few kids now at Polinsky as they are adopted so quickly.  I do not believe it, as another good friend works as a Casa.  Lots of movement of older kids between foster homes and lots of older kids deemd not adoptable.  Heartbreaking.

    Parent
    Im thinking she's a lucky girl (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 10:59:29 AM EST
    even if things havnt exactly been peaches 'n cream for her up till now..

    Good for you, Dadler.

    Parent

    Hope ya had.... (none / 0) (#136)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:39:39 PM EST
    a snowball fight...looks sick bro.  And soon to be two on two...congrats and good luck my man.

    Parent
    Nice trip, eh k? (none / 0) (#168)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 11:06:34 AM EST
    any Mayan prophetic material come through you down there, you'd care to share?

    Glad you had a good time, bro.

    Parent

    Kdog, that is great news (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:07:50 PM EST
    that Isla was still there for you, as it has been a few years since we were there -- but now you, along with me, will hear it calling to you for years to come.  It sounds like you got the great experience of getting away from the Avalon crowd (why in the world spend all one's time in one hotel, meals and all?) to get into the town, especially to really chow down on the great Yucatan cuisine.  Yes, we tended to watch where the Mexicanos, not the Americanos, went to eat. :-)  (And we also found it fun to meet so many Europeans who like Isla, too.)

    And yes, I'm glad I got to Chichen Itza before the clumsy tourista got the pyramid-trekking closed down.  So now we will have to head to your Coba!  And many other sites ahead for me, having read and researched so much more now, to not just be a tourista.  Yes, you got it -- chills, awe, at all that was there so long ago . . . and so much more still being discovered again.

    Hope you got to go down a cenote, too -- and in Cancun, that you got away from the American strip and got to gorgeous old Cancun and its playa and amazing restaurants and more!

    As for those friendly Argentinians, they never seem to find me.  But now I'll just mention your name. :-)

    Parent

    You would love TIkal. (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:44:01 PM EST
    cx: Sorry, now I see Isla (none / 0) (#104)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:33:39 PM EST
    on your (rather exhausting:-) list.  Hope you liked it, hope the condo-building has slowed so as to have left you some lovely white-sand beaches.

    Parent
    Excellent (none / 0) (#107)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:37:46 PM EST
    Grand Canyon was awesome.  Got in and out just before the crowds arrived.  But got a nice sinus infection in the process.  Still nursing it.

    Parent
    drowned sandwiches are (none / 0) (#108)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:38:54 PM EST
    DA BOMB! Welcome back, Amigo!

    Parent
    kdog! (none / 0) (#102)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:31:50 PM EST
    Welcome back. Hope you had a fabulous time.

    Parent
    Damned if you do and (none / 0) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 09:05:05 AM EST
    damned if you don't type of situation IMO.

    His policies OTOH are where Obama and I part company.

    Parent

    That's what I was thinking (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 09:08:07 AM EST
    no matter how he answered he would have angered someone.

    I heard Jack Tapper on NPR yesterday and he seemed to think Obama could have checked more than one box. Maybe that would have been the only way to win.

    Parent

    He's written (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 09:27:00 AM EST
    extensively on the subject.  It isn't really surprising.

    Parent
    We all know that Obama identifies (none / 0) (#33)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:56:45 PM EST
    himself as an African-American, but the form didn't ask that question.  

    It's not like he doesn't know what his racial background is, so not also checking the box for "White" seems like kind of a rejection of his lineage, doesn't it?

    He is bi-racial, having an African father and a Caucasian mother; the form allows one to check "one or more" boxes, so in the interest of accuracy, shouldn't he have checked both boxes - or, in the interest of being completely accurate, maybe he - maybe all of us - shoudl have checked ALL the boxes.  That might have been quite the interesting thing for the Census to interpret, huh?

    People will make of it what they will, just as some Washington Nationals fans are livid that Obama put on a Chicago White Sox hat to throw out the first ball at the Nationals game last night; he ran out in a Nationals jacket and then slipped the Chicago hat on just before he lobbed the ball - and then couldn't name a single White Sox player he admired growing up.  

    Parent

    Oh yes (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:11:36 PM EST
    let's play Blood Quantum!!!

    In his book published in association with the series, Gates summarized the information: Only 5 percent of African Americans have at least one-eighth Native American ancestry (equivalent to one great-grandparent). On the other hand, nearly 78 percent of African Americans have at least one-eighth European ancestry (the equivalent to a great-grandparent), and nearly 20 percent have at least one-quarter European ancestry (the equivalent to a grandparent.) [wiki]

    So basically, African Americans as we know them don't exist.  78% are mixed race.  Of course, African American is not exclusively (although necessarily) a matter of heritage - it is also a community and a history.  People identify as AA because they want to exist that way.  And Obama has every right to do the same.

    Parent

    I'm not "playing" anything, (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:18:24 PM EST
    and I acknowledged that Obama identifies himself as AA - and no one's suggesting he doesn't have that right.  But, does that mean that if you identify yourself as the reincarnation of Cleopatra that you should fill out your census form that way ("hmmm...Egyptian, I think - is that a race?  Okay, maybe I'm 'some other race'")?

    The form does not ask "with what race do you identify yourself?"  It asks:

    What is Person 1's race?

    Asked since 1790. Race is key to implementing many federal laws and is needed to monitor compliance with the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. State governments use the data to determine congressional, state and local voting districts. Race data are also used to assess fairness of employment practices, to monitor racial disparities in characteristics such as health and education and to plan and obtain funds for public services.

    I did not design the census questions.  I do not decide what its many purposes are.  Maybe Obama is like every other man I know who seems genetically incapable of reading directions, and did not realize he had the option to check more than one box.  

    Maybe it was an 11-dimensional, deliberate move to make sure someone would get qet a job knocking on the door at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to follow up.

    Maybe this is too ridiculous to keep discussing and I should have followed my initial instinct and not jumped in with an opinion.  Sheesh.


    Parent

    I mutter a "sheesh" with you, Anne (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:09:49 PM EST
    but also thank you for the best potential explanation yet, so funny!  I will share that with the group to other guffaws, I bet. :-)

    Parent
    And "Whites" (none / 0) (#179)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 08, 2010 at 09:33:47 AM EST
    So basically, African Americans as we know them don't exist.

    Yeah, and neither do "whites".  "White" families who have been in the US for a couple hundred of years are as much mixed race as any "black" families who have been here a few hundred years.

    But that should be no surprise.

    Parent

    Couldnt name a single (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:26:05 PM EST
    White Sox player..but he does know whether or not he ever had to duck sniper fire in or war zone, or if he was named after a person who became famous two years after he was born..

    Does anyone think that the fact that he's probably been "identified" as AA by 99% of his fellow citizens might be a significant factor in his self-identification as an AA?

    Parent

    Sooooo. The primaries aren't over. (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:33:50 PM EST
    Some days they are (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:56:12 PM EST
    some days they aren't.

    Something about evoking baseball game behavior as an excuse to prove Obama's opportunism-even-in-small-things..is just so primaries.

    Parent

    But, but, but... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:18:42 PM EST
    ...his pitch was high and outside!  And the Nat's got their lunch handed to them!!

    Don't you know what that means?!?!  Clearly he's an empty suit with no experience who managed to game the system against the Nats.  Why, it's worse than his nose scratching!11  Also.

    Parent

    That wasn't why I mentioned it. (none / 0) (#119)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:08:58 PM EST
    I said, "people will make of it (which box he checked on his census form) what they will - just as some Nationals fans are livid that..." to make the point that some things matter to some people, and to some people they are meaningless.

    I happened to be listening to sports radio this morning - I'm in Baltimore, so the Nationals are discussed maybe not as much as the Orioles, but this was Topic A: Obama and the White Sox cap.  There was no consensus on whether it was a slap in the face to the Nationals, or whether it was of no consequence, but the one thing that seemed to bother both the radio hosts and the callers was that when asked, Obama just stuttered out some incomprehensible answer to the question of which White Sox players he admired growing up - a reasonable question, given the hat.

    One of the hosts said that Obama should have answered that he didn't live in Chicago as a kid, but having lived there for so many years later, he felt he owed it to his adopted hometown to represent the team.  They all seemed puzzled by his inability to answer the question, which them made some of them question his sincerity; I could see how people could react that way.

    Just as I can see how his answering the "which race are you?" question with only one race could bother some people.

    I, personally, don't care if he trotted out onto the field wearing an Easter Bunny outfit - I just drew the comparison between these two recent events to show how some people react more to things than others.

    And, I'm not the one who has to make sense of the census, or figure out who's even reading the instructions before answering the questions, so what do I care why Obama - or anyone else - checked - or didn't - the right number of boxes on the form?

    But, I know it is much more fun to make it "all about the primaries."

    Whatever.

    Parent

    FOS (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:23:47 PM EST
    The key tip offs to your, "only reporting the facts, maam" are these:

    It's not like he doesn't know what his racial background is, so not also checking the box for "White" seems like kind of a rejection of his lineage, doesn't it?

    and

    he ran out in a Nationals jacket and then slipped the Chicago hat on just before he lobbed the ball - and then couldn't name a single White Sox player he admired growing up.
     

    and

    Maybe Obama is like every other man I know who seems genetically incapable of reading directions

    and

    Maybe it was an 11-dimensional, deliberate move

    They all seemed puzzled by his inability to answer the question, which them made some of them question his sincerity; I could see how people could react that way
    .

    and this is patently false:

    I just drew the comparison between these two recent events to show how some people react more to things than others.

    You did not "just" anything. You used these incidents to justify almost all the comments you have made here at TL regarding Obama.

    Parent

    Oh, bite me. (none / 0) (#148)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:20:50 PM EST
    Who died and made you the one who gets to decree what's in other people's heads?

    Oh, yeah, that's right: no one.

    Just so pathetic and predictable.

    Parent

    Unfortunately Not In Your Head (none / 0) (#151)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:47:58 PM EST
    But in plain text. No need to, interpret,  decode, or mindread.

    Parent
    Squeaky, that's all you do... (5.00 / 4) (#157)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:38:51 PM EST
    interpret, in order to have the argument that works for you;

    decode with your special decoder ring, the one that allows you to twist others' words 180 degrees from their clear and unambiguous message; and

    read your own mind, where you construct these imaginary arguments that aren't being presented here.

    When it's one person saying this about you, maybe it's just a personality conflict; when you get it from commenter after commenter, it's your pattern.

    It's the pattern of someone who has so little substance with which to construct an argument that she has to resort to this kind of constant personal attack.

    It's old and it's tired and it's sad.

    Parent

    No Twist (none / 0) (#177)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 08, 2010 at 09:20:08 AM EST
    Your quotes, no mind reading either, just what you said.

    Parent
    Disgusting (4.00 / 3) (#65)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:04:11 PM EST
    corruption and injustice is never "over".

    And Squeaky, if you're listening and you're going to start in on me, please buy me an iPad for having to put up with it.  Thanks in advance.

    Parent

    That's funny. (none / 0) (#75)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:20:14 PM EST
    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:21:31 PM EST
    When answering questions on age or whether the person lives in a house or an apartment, those seem pretty factual to me. A question about race or origin, particularly for mixed-race people, is not nearly so factual. To me it seems to have elements of what group one identifies with. But that's my interpretation. Someone else can read the same question and interpret it in a different way. So I think it would be a mistake to say that he is rejecting his white lineage by not also checking the white box.  The option to check more than one did not even use to be there. It is because of recognition that mixed-race people didn't fit into neat categories that the option was added. But let's not now constrain them to conform in a different way by checking all the boxes that we think apply.  And certainly let's not ascribe deep meaning to Pres. Obama's particular choice.

    Now, the Chisox cap on the other hand.  Very tacky....

    Parent

    Thank you. (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:27:55 PM EST
    Obama wrote an entire book about struggling with his racial identity.  What he checks is up to him.

    Parent
    Note that the point (none / 0) (#81)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:30:19 PM EST
    made by the group was not that he rejected his white lineage, as they were pleased that he had embrace all of his heritages in the campaign.  And that resonated with them, others of marvelously multicultural origins.

    Their point was that -- indeed, after the long fight for the one-or-more option on the form -- he then did not follow that option, and apparently that was a disappointment.  As with others, such as baseball fans of particular cities, it seems to matter to have the president carry a banner for a cause.  Or wear a cap for a team.  Whichever.

    Parent

    my response (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:33:10 PM EST
    I was responding to Anne who said, "It's not like he doesn't know what his racial background is, so not also checking the box for "White" seems like kind of a rejection of his lineage, doesn't it?"

    Parent
    and (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:19:31 PM EST
    I didn't mean to sound snippy, CC.

    Parent
    A different take on Shutter Island (none / 0) (#12)
    by observed on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 09:55:42 AM EST
    I found this in the comments at the NYtimes.
     BIG TIME spoiler alert!

    I don't think I buy this guy's interpretation, but he is one smart and observant cookie to come up with it.

    last night's game (none / 0) (#14)
    by jharp on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 10:16:27 AM EST
    Just thought I'd share.

    My 16 year old son decided to run downtown to watch the Butler/Duke game last night. He left the house about 15 minutes prior to the tip off.

    Parking was free. And him and his buddy were able to buy two tickets for $15 a piece.

    Wow. Stunning. Oh, and he had quite the good time. It's a real shame that Butler came up short.

    I stopped watching (none / 0) (#134)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:16:07 PM EST
    after one of the worst foul calls, and there was competition for which was the worst.

    I ought to have known what was ahead at the very start, as I was watching with a Hoosier who knows every detail about everyone out on the court -- and he immediately cursed at the introduction of the refs.  He pointed the one who would be trouble, the one who dumps on any and every team from Indiana, after legendary run-ins with Bobby Knight.  That ref got banned by the Big 10.  Yet there he was, hired by the NCAA for the Big Game.  Interesting.

    Btw, other Hoosier scuttlebutt was the unhappiness that comes when a local Indy team makes it to the top -- because it really cuts back on the tourist bucks and on attendance by the locals.  They all were welcome for free to watch it on the big screens in the famed Butler fieldhouse, site of the filming of Hoosiers.  And it was packed by thousands to the historic rafters.

    Parent

    I watched til the bitter end. I know the call you (none / 0) (#141)
    by Angel on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:17:58 PM EST
    are referencing.

    Did you watch the Baylor women vs Conn women game?  Refs were horrible in that match as well.  

    Parent

    Yep, you know the call (none / 0) (#149)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:21:25 PM EST
    and yep, I watched part of the Baylor-UConn women's game with my Hoosier spouse, who likes watching women's games even more (he's one of the regulars in person at our local campus women's games, too).  But once again, I stopped watching when I saw too many bad calls for it to be a fair game.  I know too many of these student-athletes who give up so much, give it their all, and then have to deal with such bad refs.  I see the impact on them -- and I marvel at how tough they are.  It must be what is meant by the mantra that participation in athletics is, as they say, good training for life -- that is, for lousy bosses who will be arbitrary and capricious.

    I've dealt with enough of those, the lousy bosses and others of their ilk who love control for the sake of it.  I can't always get away from it in life, but I can just walk away from it when I see it on teevee, and just go read a good book.

    Of course, my reading gets interrupted by more howls of frustration from the diehard hoops watcher here, every howl reaffirming for me that the deck is just stacked against fairness in some of these games.  I can get through a lot of chapters while awaiting the call-by-call update from the diehard hoops fan here who sticks it out, as you do, to the inevitable bitter end.

    So you two are tough, too. :-)

    Parent

    How cool for them (none / 0) (#29)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 12:42:49 PM EST
    I'm sure they would have been even happier to see Butler win, but they still had an experience most of us don't !

    oops - meant that as a reply to #14 (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:34:05 PM EST
    about the kids going to the NCAA final

    Parent
    Big news on Net Neutrality (none / 0) (#58)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:52:47 PM EST
    in the NY times, since I'm not good at linking, I hope someone else will. DC Court of Appeals throws out FCC's ruling against Comcast...

    Here's the (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 01:56:04 PM EST
    link

    someone told me an easy way to do it:

    [http:whatever text]

    Parent

    Troubling? (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:13:41 PM EST
    The White House says it is considering canceling a visit by Afghan President Hamid Karzai if his remarks continue to be troubling....

    ...Karzai is due to meet with President Barack Obama at the White House on May 12.

    Asked if Karzai is an ally of the U.S., Gibbs would only refer to him as the Democratically elected leader of Afghanistan. He called untrue Karzai's claims of Western blame for the fraud in Afghanistan's presidential election last year

    .

    link

    and this:

    Former U.N. envoy to Aghanistan Peter Galbraith on MSNBC's Daily Rundown this morning charged that Afghan President Hamid Karzai's "continued tirade raises questions about his mental stability."

    He then added, "In fact, some of the palace insiders say that he has a certain fondness for some of Afghanistan's most profitable exports."

    link

    I wonder if they are... (none / 0) (#106)
    by desertswine on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:35:21 PM EST
    considering the Ngo Dinh Diem solution for him.

    Parent
    Shunning (none / 0) (#111)
    by squeaky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:42:07 PM EST
    Well maybe a few steps down the road.. an accidental OD?

    Parent
    I wouldn't be surprised... (none / 0) (#127)
    by desertswine on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:46:55 PM EST
    an accidental bomb maybe?

    Parent
    If so, it will probably (none / 0) (#139)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:53:45 PM EST
    be just as effective.

    Parent
    The "Diem" solution, (none / 0) (#140)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:14:32 PM EST
    uncanny reference to any earlier quagmire, Viet Nam.  And, we have brothers, Hamid and Wali, as well.  Now, for the counterpart first lady, Madame Nu, wife of Ngo who caused a big ruckus about it all--I am not sure about a Madame(s) Karzai.   These guys should learn not to get us p.o'd, and they do not need to go as far back in history to find a former friend of ours who wound up in a spider-hole, and that was the best part of the end for him.

    Parent
    Interview on NPR's "Morning Edition" (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:28:10 PM EST
    today of the author of "The Bridge," a new book about Barack Obama.  NPR

    Query:  how did Obama walk prior to his present gate?  See comments of Bobby Rush.  Weird.

    See Joan Walsh's review of (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 02:33:47 PM EST
    The Bridge in Salon today...it's very long and I think Joan wants Obama to be her boyfriend now...

    Parent
    Joan Walsh sounds like a sycophant here (2.00 / 1) (#152)
    by bridget on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:51:09 PM EST
    Ending her love letter the following way:

    "But "The Bridge" makes clear Obama has the smarts to learn from his mistakes and course-correct. I think anyone who bets against this president having two terms to learn the limits of what's politically possible is betting against history."

    Oh dear! Walsh must have slept thru the whole first year plus of the Obama admin.
    Course-correcting is fine and necessary at times even for the most experienced leader, but it would be so much better if Obama had the smarts to do everything right from the very start.  When did he do that, Ms Walsh?

    And the thousands of dead and injured in the Obama wars can never be course-corrected.

    Parent

    Just dont start cyberbullying (none / 0) (#163)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 10:38:13 AM EST
    her over it..there are plenty of vicarious romances with pols to go around.

    Parent
    Even more imaginary ... (none / 0) (#171)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 12:35:30 PM EST
    ... "romances" with pols.

    Parent
    Mattel changes Scrabble rules to (none / 0) (#92)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:05:31 PM EST
    permit using proper nouns.  Or you can use the old rules.  Your choice.  I will say, the kids at tutoring will welcome this change.  But, will they be able to use Spanish proper nouns?  CNN

    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:22:09 PM EST
    This made me laugh when I heard it on the radio this morning, because I wondered just who were the Scrabble police that were going to come to my door and enforce the rules? I guess it matters in competitive Scrabble, if there is such a thing, but when I was growing up, my siblings and I would change the rules all the time to suit how we wanted to play on that particular day.

    Parent
    Oh my, you never played with my mom (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:34:27 PM EST
    the Scrabble rules czar!

    40 years later I still feel uneasy playing with open rules.

    Parent

    I think that I've played (none / 0) (#142)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:20:51 PM EST
    your mom on online Scrabble.  Love it! but it can be interesting to find oneself in a group in which there are not only rule cops (going beyond the automatic blocks of the computer program) but also time cops -- "no extensions!" cops.  I tend to like a coherent agreement on rules and a fast-paced game, too . . . but I'll tell ya, some of them are so rigid that they make certain commenters here look almost flexible and friendly.  

    It has almost ruined me for f2f Scrabble, though.  And it's a whole different level, once you learn all those useful two-letter words, that drives some in my family bonkers.  But at last, I can compete with the sibling with photographic memory who put it to use with the official Scrabble dictionary.  Aarrggghh.

    Parent

    re (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Angel on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 07:04:43 PM EST
    My mother hates it when I use that one.

    Parent
    That would be quite an internet connection! (none / 0) (#167)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 11:03:09 AM EST
    Seeing as how she's been getting triple word scores on St. Peter for 20 years ;-)

    I haven't tried any of the computerized scrabble games yet. I really should!

    Parent

    Ah. Well, that could explain (none / 0) (#170)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 07, 2010 at 11:50:48 AM EST
    why some of those players seem to have supernatural ability!

    Btw, it was a New Yorker piece on online Scrabble that sent me to several sites to try it . . . and it hooked me, now that most of my game-playing fanatics, my kids, are off to the game of life, small l.:-)

    We do convene as we can for game nights -- and another of our faves, a new card-game version, is Monopoly Deal.  Like Scrabble, it is a great balance of strategy, risk, and just darn-it luck of the draw that can reverse it all in a minute.  It's a lot faster to set up and play than the board game, too.  And only $5!

    Parent

    Roman Polanski requests the (none / 0) (#158)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:40:35 PM EST
    Court of Appeal appoint special counsel to investigate allegations of prosecutorial misconduct, possibly convene a grand jury, and possibly file complaints with state bar association.  [Although Mr. Polanski could do the latter himself.] Bottom line seems to be he doesn't want to come back to LA and wait for all this to happen while he is in custody.  NYT