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Monday Afternoon Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:45:45 PM EST
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Los Suns swept the Spurs. Beat LA!

Open Thread.

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    Insult to injury? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:08:55 PM EST
    A Colorado man who claimed he was trying to defend himself from a mugger when he shot himself in the groin has been convicted of illegal discharge of a firearm.

    Ouch!

    Good thing... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:14:54 PM EST
    he's not a NY'er...we dole out years in a cage for that, in our infinite liberal wisdom...lol.

    Just ask Plax.

    Parent

    Well... (none / 0) (#9)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:18:03 PM EST
    ...in many respects, we're still in Wild West mode out here on the frontier.  

    "Make my day" laws, open carry on college campuses...

    Yeeehaw pardner.

    Parent

    The oil continues to gush from the (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:34:51 PM EST
    undersea wellhead, with at least 3.5 million gallons spilled since the April 20 rig explosion. Meanwhile, BP is scrambling for an answer since the big box idea did not work out and other prospects are dim.  AP reported that waves of dark brown and black sludge crashed into a boat in the area above the leak sending fumes up that were so intense that a crew member and an AP photographer on board had to wear respirators while on deck  (note to volunteers, wear masks). In what seems to be a topsy turvy situation, the spiller, BP, continues to be managing the disaster and cleanup, with support from the Coast Guard. Paul Krugman (NYT) has an excellent opinion piece "entitled: Sex, Drugs and the Spill", in which he concludes that "if there's any silver lining to the disaster in the gulf, it is that it may serve as a wake-up call, a reminder that we need politicians who believe in good government, because there are some jobs only the government can do."  My only quarrel with Dr Krugman is that the Gulf disaster is not just a wake-up call,  it is the entire  clock factory.

    When we have a $5/gal tax on (none / 0) (#21)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:56:07 PM EST
    gasoline, I'll believe in that wake-up call---not before.

    Parent
    questiion (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:16:01 PM EST
    if its a wake up call why are they still in charge?


    Parent
    A good question, but no good (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by KeysDan on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:42:35 PM EST
    answer from me.  Dr. Krugman does say that it may be a wake-up call, but it is more of his expressed hope. At the government level, we are being held at bay by the famous we will have an "investigation." Not an investigation and then whatever we find will be corrected e.g. new regulations, Minerals Management will be reorganized and separated into regulatory and licensing/royalty functions, heads will roll even if it is Ken Salazar, the oil industry's man in the plant--no, just an investigation.  Also, hopes still exist for a quick fix, or at least, keeping the black stuff out of sight--chemical dispersants that emulsify and sink the oil and burns that send off toxic fumes to heavenly residents. And, of course promises to fisherman and others economically devastated of BP money damages. But, much skepticism and, even despair, is settling in.

    Parent
    Yeh. We will wring our hands (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Cream City on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:41:31 PM EST
    and gnash our teeth and deplore that it is all the fault of someone else, anyone else -- that sort of investigation.

    Bah. There are few things so sacred to me as shrimp beds, my beloved Gulf camarones, not to mention all the many other marvelous frutti de mare (switching languages, I know!).  And these are my love but not my livelihood -- I ache for all the wonderful fisherfolk and their families.

    Parent

    Reuters: estimates Gulf spill worse than Valdez... (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon May 10, 2010 at 07:53:41 PM EST
    From Reuters, May 08/10, "Gulf oil spill might have surpassed Exxon Valdez"...:
    Ian Macdonald, a Florida biological oceanographer, said on Friday the official Gulf spill estimate [5,000 barrels a day] used by NOAA, BP and the U.S. Coast Guard, had never been explained in detail and appeared to be little more than a guess.

    In an interview, Macdonald said the real flow rate from the undersea well, based on aerial images of the oil slick and estimates of the thickness of the oil itself, is probably closer to 25,000 barrels per day...

    If his own estimate is accurate, the Gulf of Mexico oil spill could have already dumped as much as 13 million gallons of crude into waters off the U.S. coastline.. [making it] bigger than the massive Exxon Valdez spill of 1989, when a tanker ship spilled 11 million gallons of oil into Alaska's Prince William Sound, in one of the world's worst environmental disasters ever...

    "I'm providing a thorough documentation of the methods that we've used,"...working together with NASA, and some estimates provided by BP itself, to calculate the flow rate...

    In additional spill news, on May 04/10, National Geographic warned the Loop Current and the Gulf Stream could carry the spill up the eastern seaboard and beyond.

    In any event, this incident has global ramifications --  here's hoping the international community gives it the attention it merits -- soon.

     

    Parent

    IMO this will result in D.C. (none / 0) (#86)
    by MO Blue on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:23:44 PM EST
    taking a "short" time out until it can distract attention elsewhere and then it will be back to business with a capital B as usual.

    Parent
    What KeysDan said: (none / 0) (#82)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:56:47 PM EST
    the Gulf disaster is not just a wake-up call, it is the entire  clock factory.

    Word.

    Parent

    Books for Prisoners (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by esmense on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:38:50 PM EST
    The increasing privatization of our prisons has meant the closing of prison libraries.

    If you are looking for a way to contribute, but don't have much money to contribute to a cause, a very little bit of money (to cover shipping costs) or donating used books to a Books for Prisoners chapter is a great way to do something that can make a big impact on many lives.

    My best friend got the Bellingham, WA Books for Prisoners (http://www.bellinghambtp.org/) chapter up and running a couple of years ago -- they are a very active chapter, sending out about 150 books per week to prisoners all over the country. There are other Washington chapters, too, in Seattle and Olympia, and in other states CA, OR, Il, plus Boston and DC. Money for postage is always a need -- you can contribute on their website using PayPal.

    Prisoners write to requests books (the most requested books are dictionaries) and the letters can be heartbreaking. Sometimes literate prisoners write for others who are hoping to learn to read. Sometimes prisoners are looking for entertainment, sometimes for information that can prepare them for jobs when they get out, self help, history, how to. The requests run the gamut and the books are likely to be handed on to again and again and again.

    Here are two letters the Bellingham Chapter recently recieved:

    "Hello, I am writing to you today to request some of the books that you are so very kind in sending to inmates free of charge.  I enjoy reading the following kinds of books:  Westerns, murder mysteries, any by Dean Koontz.  Thank you so much for what you do.  It means so much to us especially here as this is a hospital unit and many guys like me are not able to get to the library or to the t.v. day room due to medical restrictions.  I am dying of terminal cancer so the only thing we have to pass the time are books that people like you send to us.  Whenever I finish reading a book I always give them away to someone else who like me can't get out, that way the books you send get read and reread over and over again.  Thank you all so very very much you are truly a blessing to us.Very sincerely, a Texas inmate and a fellow human being."

    "I'm Writing To You About The 3 Free Books.  I Have Alot Of Time To Do.  I Need To Work On Some Things To Better My Life.

    1. Dictionary, Education
    2. Handwriting, I Need Something To Help Me Better My Handwriting, Education
    3. How To Write Poem, Poetry, Education.

    Thanks For Helping Me.  I Would Like To Learn More About Yall.

    THANK YOU."

    thank you! (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ruffian on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:57:42 PM EST
    I take a lot of books to Goodwill and would be happy to donate them this way instead.

    Parent
    Many thanks (none / 0) (#80)
    by Jen M on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:48:20 PM EST
    I will start clearing out my piles... er... organizing some books to send asap.

    Parent
    Soooo sorry I missed this concert: (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:46:18 PM EST
    Rite of Spring by Stravinsky/Gergiev/NY Phil

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by squeaky on Tue May 11, 2010 at 12:12:29 AM EST
    I am sorry I missed this one.

    This one is also great..

    Parent

    RIP (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:57:23 PM EST
    Frank Frazetta.
    no single artist influenced me more.
    The Michelangelo (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:11:30 PM EST
    and Gustave Dore of pulp art.

    My parents wouldnt "allow those those magazines in the house"..Which just gave me a double motive for being fascinated by them :)

    Parent

    when I was 15 (none / 0) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:18:34 PM EST
    and had no money I would go into stores and rip off the covers of paperback books and stuff them down my pants.


    Parent
    Imagination: bad (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:27:31 PM EST
    sex: bad, art: bad, non-conformity: bad..

    It's a wonder we're sane at all. And no wonder so many people aren't.

    Parent

    and (none / 0) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:35:39 PM EST
    when I finally got into some art classes their attitude toward him - tacky, cheap, lowbrow, sexist etc etc - only made me love him more.

    I was a born dropout anywhoo.


    Parent

    Just dont tell me Jaspar Johns (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:40:53 PM EST
    is a genius..

    Dont buy it (especially for six figures)..never bought it. Sorry folks.

    Parent

    I actually like Johns (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:46:03 PM EST
    and lots of contemporary art.  (not all)  
    I think the word "artist" is big enough for both of them.

    or course the best revenge is making more money than any of the "serious artists" around me at the time who were turning up their noses at Frazetta.

    Parent

    He's alright.. (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:04:06 PM EST
    I just dont buy the "genius" hype..put out there by all those too-leveraged-to-fail middlemen.

    Parent
    know someone whos art (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:08:33 PM EST
    I dont get?  Keith Haring.  I mean I GET it.  in that it is colorful and decorative and fun to look at but serious art?

    Parent
    He Had His Place (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:25:53 PM EST
    He expanded the language of Pop art through Graffiti. He also, along with Basquiat and Hambleton championed the notion of decomodifying art and making it accessible to everyone aka street art.

    Harring's, et al. development of pop visual language from the street, has been a major influence to many artists who have been working post 1990.

    Parent

    Obligatory Reading shoutout (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by lilburro on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:40:20 PM EST
    Keith Haring was born in Reading, Pennsylvania, as was John Updike, as was Wallace Stevens.  Something in the air there?  If you visit you'll wonder.  It's not the most pleasant city but it is surrounded by countryside.  Haring has a bunch of stuff in the small local art museum.  Growing up there I felt completely isolated from any figures of achievement, and yet, they were there the whole time.  You'd think a teacher would bother to tell you or the city would try to make a buck, at least, off their legacy.  But no.  I find that bizarre to this day.

    Anyway...The More You Know!

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:13:41 PM EST
    Im weird that way..I'll see one painting that really moves me and completely "change my mind" about the artist.

    Subjective to a fault, I guess.

    Parent

    one thing (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:17:45 PM EST
    I have noticed over and over with modern art.  you have to see in live.  pictures do not get it.

    probably true with any art but I think particularly with people like Johns.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:17:34 PM EST
    I think one problem for most people who are educated and have taken some art history, gone to museums, and generally consider themselves to have "good taste", is that they assume that that they have the tools to decode art after Impressionism.

    Contemporary art is really a language like greek. In order to gain access, it requires more than just looking at it. In order to access these works one has to understand the building blocks and history of where it is coming from, otherwise it is like a foreign language and largely inaccessible.

    Most cultured people do not realize this and are quick to write off what seems facile and even ugly. Once one gains access by study and making the connections, there is great pleasure to be had.

    Parent

    I have a problem with this (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:21:46 PM EST
    I have heard it for a long time but to me art is about visceral response.  if you have to read a book to get it thats fine I suppose, there is room for that too.  but I still think the best art elicits a visceral immediate response.

    actually I think Johns really does this when you see the real pieces.


    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:32:20 PM EST
    But once you have access to more varieties of art, you get to have more visceral pleasure.

    Example:

    I never was able to "get" Clyfford Styl, IOW I would look at his canvases and just scratch my head wondering WTF are these doing in the museums.

    One day I was at the Met and saw a young couple staring at a small painting by Styl. They were drooling and in ecstasy. I told them that I did not understand the work and asked if they could talk to me about it. They said a few things about the painting which gave me access. Ever since I have really enjoyed looking at his works.

    Same thing happened to me with Barnett Newman.

    Parent

    I'm sure that's true (none / 0) (#36)
    by CST on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:26:06 PM EST
    but for the average observer, those of us that don't necessarily consider ourselves "cultured" but just enjoy art - that's what it's for - to either enjoy or not enjoy.

    I have a hard time getting excited about art I don't "like".  Of course whether or not I "like" something is completely subjective and I understand others won't have the same taste.  But I feel pretty confident judging art for myself that way.

    I like some modern art.  Whether or not I "get it" is irrelevant to me.  I just think it's either cool to look at/experience or not.  I went to the ICA in Boston for the first time this weekend.  I thought it was a mixed bag.  I think for modern art I like the installations more than the paintings/photos in general.

    Parent

    CST ever been to the Gety in LA? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:30:16 PM EST
    many people dont like the collection.  I love it.


    Parent
    never been (none / 0) (#49)
    by CST on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:44:52 PM EST
    to LA

    Parent
    I prefer the collection at the Getty Villa (none / 0) (#85)
    by MKS on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:18:03 PM EST
    It is wonderful what they did to the old Getty....But I love ancient Greece....

    One lid to a coffin from Egypt circa the First Century has a painting of the teenage boy within-as was the custom of the time.  It really struck me how he looked like any teenage boy....Dark complexion, sure, but really just like us.....Sometimes history has a sense of distance--but not this.  You can feel the vitality of the boy and the sadness of his parents at his pre-mature death....

    If I could have lunch on the patio at the Getty Villa every day....Nice it'd be....

    The main Getty off the 405 is fine--a big emphasis on the commercial side of things, though....

    Parent

    You need to get to the Met while the (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:30:32 PM EST
    this special exhibition is still on:  Illuminations

    This book of hours is usually at the Cloisters, bound.  At the Met each leaf is visible and at eye level.  Magnifying glass available.  Spectacular.

    Parent

    Oh, yes, oculus (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Zorba on Mon May 10, 2010 at 08:23:36 PM EST
    Mr. Zorba and I went recently when we were in New York.  Absolutely outstanding.

    Parent
    Did you also get to see "The Mourners"? (none / 0) (#95)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 08:43:28 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes, we did (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Zorba on Mon May 10, 2010 at 08:49:06 PM EST
    Very powerful.  Incredible.

    Parent
    Too far away from the surf (none / 0) (#88)
    by MKS on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:39:58 PM EST
    Go Lakers!

    Parent
    the Cloisters (none / 0) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 11, 2010 at 10:11:32 AM EST
    one of my favorite places on earth.
    its amazing how many new yorkers are unaware of that place.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Tue May 11, 2010 at 10:49:32 AM EST
    I lived a few blocks away for fourteen years, the highest point of Manhattan. And the park and gardens are splendid too.

    Gotta love Rockefeller, cobbling together a cloister from spare parts lying around all over Europe...

    Parent

    Yep, I'm pretty into wine, (none / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:35:09 PM EST
    and I often find similar responses. Some stuff you just like and other stuff you have to learn to like.

    Parent
    Mountain tribesmen (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:44:41 PM EST
    learn to love goat's eyeballs.

    Parent
    Well then they'd love S African Pinotage. (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:53:28 PM EST


    Parent
    Ouzo? (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 08:43:54 PM EST


    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:28:43 PM EST
    I get the street art stuff.  I was in NY when he was doing it in the subway.  that was great.

    in galleries for millions, not so much.


    Parent

    So who is the audience? (none / 0) (#39)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:31:46 PM EST
    As I read your comment, this art can only appeal to a very, very small group.
    It sounds rather like the situation with modern classical music, which appeals to almost no one either.

    A few years ago, I had a friend who was a photography professor. I couldn't listen to him talk about art without being turned off.
    One day I mentioned how a friend of mine traveled to DC just to see the Vermeer exhibit.
    I could tell my friend thought that looking at Vermeer is a total waste of time.
    He was very much into conceptual art, which I can't distinguish from "total BS" art.

    You probably know the story of the meeting between Maya Lin and the fabulously talented sculptor (forgotten his name) who did the realistic sculpture of three soldiers.
    Maya Lin wondered how he had created a mold---.
    ha ha ha.
    I would call a two cultures moment.

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:38:17 PM EST
    I live much contemporary art but IMO anyone who considers looking at Vermeer a waste of time is a moron.


    Parent
    that would be (none / 0) (#44)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:39:20 PM EST
    "love"

    I suppose I live some of the more erratic kinds as well.


    Parent

    My tastes are pretty esoteric, and I (none / 0) (#47)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:44:16 PM EST
    am glad if people are doing different and new things, even if they don't work.
    From my philistine perspective, however, conceptual art is old hat and totally overdone.


    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:45:09 PM EST
    Contemporary practice in specialized fields is by definition is usually not understandable by those outside of a given field.

    After time it seeps in and the great practitioners sift up through the mediocre. Time solves the figure ground problem. It takes sorting as only a fraction of those making art today will remain in the history books, and time passing for the stuff to make sense for those not in the field.

    Contemporary Music has a distinctly smaller audience than contemporary art, because it is not a commodity. Because contemporary art is a commodity entices many more (mostly wealthy) to spend time studying and getting involved. One thing for sure, is in order to crack contemporary arts, you need to spend a great deal of time getting exposure.

    As for your photographer friend, well YMMV. In my book anyone who can readily discount Vemeer has no business talking about art.

    Parent

    Good point about art vs music. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:52:06 PM EST
    I tend to think that throwing money at artists will lead to some good art being produced.
    Isn't the fragmentation of the arts audience mirrored all over the public sphere?
    Tastes in literature are compartmentalized---even news-watching and reading habits.

    Just one word about (over)refinement of taste:
    vodka. People fool themselves quite easily, IMO.

    Parent

    People FOol Themselves (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:04:33 PM EST
    Well a good thing that.. If it were all math and numbers that add up, and everyone had a grip, very few, if any would ever create something new.

    In a way much of the great art and possibly science, was created because people misunderstood the works of their predecessors.

    Of course when people fool themselves it can often be embarrassingly disgusting. But for humans to have that ability is a good thing, imo. It just has to be used well... lol

    Parent

    Interesting interview with Lewis Spratlan, (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 08:51:09 PM EST
    a contemporary composer whose opera "Life is a Dream" won a Pulitzer awhile ago based on a concert performance of part of the opera.  He is bitter about the fate of his music.  He is also unrepentant about his dissonant style.  NYT

    Parent
    Hey, I;m all for someone (none / 0) (#103)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:30:29 PM EST
    being true to his own ideas.
    Clinging to dissonance is a bit unimaginative, if you ask me. Ever hear the Gould composition based on wind sounds? I believe he called it, "The North winds". That's a completely different approach to making new music---combining natural sounds in an interesting way.

    Like I said, I'm all for variety. However, it's undeniable that classical music, both new and old,  has problems.
    We are far enough from the beginning of atonal music to make judgment about its success; in terms of reaching a larger audience, most "serious" music is a failure.
    People STILL don't want to hear Bartok, and they hate serial music.
    Hey, if you or I enjoy music that is not widely popular, that's great, but  when Rachmaninoff is the most popular 20th century composer (and he's almost a hack, IMO), that sends a message about the artistic failure of   other composers, IMO.


    Parent

    Did you listen to Met broadcast (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:33:22 PM EST
    Sat. of Alban Berg's "Lulu."  Wonderful opera.  Serial.  

    Parent
    One Of The Greatest Pieces In the 20th Century (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:49:02 PM EST
    I never thought of the piece as strictly serial... but it has been awhile since I studied the score...

    Berg was a numbers mystic and wrote coded messages throughout much of his music.

    Lulu is amazing. Wozzek too.

    Parent

    On this we agree. (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:54:18 PM EST


    Parent
    and how many people like Berg? (none / 0) (#109)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:44:10 PM EST
    A lot more people adored Beethoven 50 years after his death than Berg. Why?
    It's not like that in other arts.
    For example, I'd wager that more people read and enjoy the great novels of the 20th century than like the supposed masterpieces of 20th century classical music. I mean, millions of high school students read the great novels and plays, and many enjoy them. What's the problem in music?
    Maybe it simply boils down to lack of good music education in the schools.

    Personally, I'd rather here 5 new or unfamiliar operas for every old warhorse.
    Oh well.


    Parent

    James Joyce had great difficulty (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:47:38 PM EST
    getting "Ulysses" published.  Berg's reputation is perking up.  Local opera company finally got around to producing "Wozzeck" a couple of years ago.  Very conservative subscription audience.  The Berg Violin Concerto is performed fairly often.  

    Parent
    Absurd (none / 0) (#116)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:52:52 PM EST
    A lot more people adored Beethoven 50 years after his death than Berg. Why?

    I do not think that you can compare the 19th century to the 20th and 21st century.

    You could say that no one listened to Berg 50 years after Beethoven's death.

    And if you want a simple answer to your "Why?" Recording, Teevee and Radio.

    Parent

    Your comment makes no sense to me. (none / 0) (#121)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:57:52 PM EST
    Why hasn't the presence of recordings made Berg MORE popular after his death than Beethoven after his?
    As for

    I do not think that you can compare the 19th century to the 20th and 21st century

    , sure I can.


    Parent
    Sure You Can (none / 0) (#124)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:03:16 PM EST
    You can make up whatever you want. Doesn't make it anything more than a fiction.

    Parent
    Oh, that's Glenn Gould, btw. (none / 0) (#106)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:37:25 PM EST


    Parent
    Not Morton? Hovanness (none / 0) (#107)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:38:31 PM EST
    composed a piece incorporating recordings of whale sounds.  

    Parent
    "And God Created Great Whales," (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:45:26 PM EST
    by Alan Hovaness link

    (I doubt he authorized the video.)

    Parent

    no, it was Glenn Gould. (none / 0) (#114)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:49:52 PM EST


    Parent
    Just kidding, although I didn't (none / 0) (#117)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:52:58 PM EST
    know Glenn Gould was also a composer.

    Parent
    He only wrote a few things that I know of. (none / 0) (#118)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:54:12 PM EST
    You've probably heard his 4 part fugue for singers, titled " So you want to write a fugue". It's a hoot.

    Parent
    Did you know that Horowitz (none / 0) (#127)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:07:50 PM EST
    composed a LOT of music? I believe it is all lost/destroyed. He didn't want it released, and told Wanda to destroy it after he died; I believe that's what happened. I can't remember who said this, but there were reports that the music was quite wonderful, which would hardly be a surprise.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#108)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:43:31 PM EST
    Rachmaninoff is the most popular 20th century composer (and he's almost a hack, IMO), that sends a message about the artistic failure of   other composers, IMO.

    It only sends a message about popular taste. The fact that serious music or art is not popular, well... seems like a truism, no.

    Parent

    It's a truism that hasn't always been true, (none / 0) (#112)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:47:59 PM EST
    has it? AFAIK, Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart et. al. were very popular with the general public in the 19th century. Sure, many people wouldn't like the Grosse Fuge, but most of Beethoven was accessible and liked.
    Writing music which is accessible while hewing to one's artistic ideas is an artistic challenge in and of itself, one which is undervalued.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#120)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:54:59 PM EST
    Were you there? And what public are you talking about?

    America?

    In any case the comparison is absurd.

    Parent

    Now you are just being argumentative (none / 0) (#122)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:00:48 PM EST
    without having anything to say.
    You seem to be willing to argue that Beethoven was NOT popular in the 19th century in order to make some perverse point.

    Parent
    Your Comparison (none / 0) (#126)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:06:18 PM EST
    Means nothing. It is theater of the absurd. You make up your facts and compare two centuries making believe that all things are equal.

    You may as well be describing what Bach sounded like when he was singing in the shower and comparing it to Schoenberg's muttering to his dog.

    Parent

    I am not ashamed to say I enjoy (none / 0) (#115)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:51:10 PM EST
    Rachmaninoff's music.  

    P.S.  I recently heard a Russian pianist play a program of Western classical music in Japan.  Audience was comprised of all ages, including small children.  I was one of two non-Asians in the audience.  Audience sat very quietly, did not applaud between movements.  No coughing, program shuffling, bolding for the door after last piece.  No one clapped first to break the ambience at the end of each piece.  I talked to a young Japanese couple after the concert and mentioned the audience decorum.  They sd. doing any of those things would be rude.  They knew the music on the program from public school music.  Unfortunately, our young people don't.  

    Parent

    Rachmaninoff is enjoyable, I like his (none / 0) (#125)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:04:21 PM EST
    choral music and his Vocalise quite a lot. His songs are wonderful. "In the Silence of Night" was my favorite art song, when I was studying voice. I just don't find much original or compelling about his larger musical works.


    Parent
    The obvious question becomes (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:40:18 PM EST
    whats the point?.. if it's becomes almost exclusively the domain of a very select group of initiates, who may, to some extent, have been subjected to an indoctrination process that bears some resemblance to what Scientologists undergo?

    Does art have anything to do with communication anymore, at this point?

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:48:27 PM EST
    It is absolutely communication. People did not get Beethoven when he was writing. Riots during Stravinsky Rite of Spring..

    You cannot expect to get cutting edge works, even when you are immersed in that world. Some artists are way ahead, some like Bach write in a style that is considered over, passé.

    History often sorts it all out.

    Parent

    I keep flashing on that scene (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:53:28 PM EST
    in The Cradle Will Rock, in which Hearst and Rockefeller, with their knickers all in a twist about that Rivera mural, start going on about the importance from now of encouraging  "abstract expression..form..and color.."

    Parent
    want some (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:58:57 PM EST
    "immediate visceral reaction"?

    visit the round downstairs rooms at the Louvre and check out the Monet water lilies.

    better yet.  do it on acid.
     

    Parent

    van gogh museum (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by CST on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:00:20 PM EST
    in amsterdam.  Although the appropriate substance has now been banned there I think.

    Parent
    I was amazed at the emotional reaction (none / 0) (#65)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:03:39 PM EST
    I had from looking at Chinese Calligraphy at the Met. I had no idea what the words meant, but the strokes alone were full of pathos.

    Parent
    Went to see Cartier-Bresson exh. at (none / 0) (#76)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:36:41 PM EST
    MOMA.  Then trying to remember where the museum had moved the Monet "Water Lilies" to.  I loved the out-of-the way nook with seating against the wall.  Perfect.  No through-traffic.  Anyhow, my friend sd. she didn't need to see those water lilies again anytime soon.  Amazing.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:46:24 PM EST
    I am a confirmed MOMA hater. The new building is just another notch in list of complaints. In particular the Waterlily room is a horrible affront to my sensibilities. It now looks like a corporate conference room where everything is squashed in. And if there are more than five people in the room it feels like there are twenty.  

    The old room was five times as big. Leisurley feeling, contemplative space, even if there were more than thirty people in the room, it never felt crowded. Large, long couches to contemplate the paintings with lots of space around them.

    They f'ed that one up for sure.

    Parent

    Same re scultpure garden I think. (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:47:50 PM EST


    Parent
    Different Problem (none / 0) (#81)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:53:56 PM EST
    The sculpture garden is at least twice the size. Honestly I have not been there during quite time, only during museum openings where there were crowds and drink bars set up all over.

    If I were to speculate they f*ed that one up by making it too big. The proportions were intimate before, sitting there when the museum was quiet was always special. Now it is a vast space.

    One thing that I loved though, were the Franz West sculptures that you can sit in/on. Very colorful, great pieces that spiced up the traditional grey palate of most works in the garden.

    Parent

    what bugs me (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:53:43 PM EST
    is that many seem to take a real pleasure in the rarefied atmosphere.  feel they are not doing what they should be without it.

    good example I saw recently in some film about art.  I cant remember where or what it was about exactly but an artist named Mark di Suvero, who makes gigantic constructs of metal girders, was making fun of some other disciplines like "Illumination" in a dismissive way.
    now that got to me since illuminated manuscripts, of which the Getty in LA has thousands, are some of my favorite things in the world.

    just unnecessary.
     

    Parent

    Ha (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:58:36 PM EST
    Mark di Suvero is about as much a peoples artist as you can get. Nothing esoteric about the guy, feet solidly on the ground and totally committed to art.

    Sorry to hear that you had a negative take on him. He is really quite a special man, generous to a fault and as real as you can get.

    He opened Socrates Scuplture Park, to promote out door sculpture  for young artists. What a mensch..  

    Parent

    Im sure he is a nice man (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:00:13 PM EST
    but his remarks there struck me as the exact reason I dropped out of art school.


    Parent
    also (none / 0) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:02:47 PM EST
    "people artist" possibly but I think for many people his work defines art as eyesore.

    not me really.  Im just sayin.


    Parent

    I could be off base here, but I think when (none / 0) (#62)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:00:16 PM EST
    art leaves the realm of the senses, there is a problem. What do I mean by this? Take music.
    Whether you like Beethoven or not, you can analyze his music in terms of harmony, rhythm, melody, phrasing, etc.
    Those building blocks of music are the objective ground on which judgments of taste are made.
    Similarly, you can take a Picasso painting and say what he has done, and point to the canvas to demonstrate your point.
    Not so with some modern art, IMO.
    Somehow you are supposed to appreciate what the artist is thinking (which you need to be told in words, because you couldn't possibly infer it from the physical piece), even though you there is no physical referent for these thoughts.

    Parent
    Don't Understand (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:14:43 PM EST
    Art cannot leave the realm of the senses. The fact that some art does not make sense (no pun intended, although a good one) to you does not mean that you get to say it no longer appeals to the senses.

    Really it is only a question of exposure and education. And then there will still be things that do not appeal to you.

    Case in point:

    First time I heard Alban Berg (Violin Concerto) it sounded random and ugly. After listening to it four or five times, it sounded no different from Brahms to me.

    The human brain needs time to decode patterns that are new. Some get it quicker than others, but with repeated exposure, curiosity and asking questions, most people are able to make connections, and even the most outrageous stuff can become enjoyable and comprehensible.

    One has to be open though.

    Parent

    "The fact that some art . . . (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:22:20 PM EST
    . . . does not make sense (no pun intended, although a good one) to you does not mean that you get to say it no longer appeals to the senses."

    think District 9

    Parent

    You misunderstood. (none / 0) (#73)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:30:08 PM EST
    Not the first time.
    What I'm saying here has nothing to do with District 9. I hated that film, but I wouldn't say it had no concept, or that the concept wasn't evident as you watched and heard the film( boy was it EVER---the heavy-handedness was the problem for me).

    What I"m saying could possibly apply to the sculptor you and squeaky are discussing. It certainly applies to an "installation" consisting of a number of equally spaced, undifferentiated pillars occupying a room. YOu didn't just need an explanation to appreciate it as art---you really need an explanation plus a blindfold.

    Parent

    not what I'm talking about. (none / 0) (#71)
    by observed on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:25:38 PM EST
    I have seen "art" that is nothing more than a blank, partially charred note card.
    It becomes art by virtue of a verbal explanation---otherwise it is indistinguishable from junk.
    Berg had concepts and ideas about music which he translated into something audible, which is far different.
    The difference is in the lack of technique, IMO.

    Parent
    how about (none / 0) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:30:59 PM EST
    this or http://nga.gov.au/international/Catalogue/Images/LRG/44875.jpg.

    a urinal and a bottle rack respectively.

    pretty widely recognized as some of the most important works of the 20th century.

    Parent

    oops (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:32:00 PM EST
    fixed

    this  or this
    a urinal and a bottle rack respectively.

    pretty widely recognized as some of the most important works of the 20th century.

    Parent

    the point in these instances is to encourage us (none / 0) (#84)
    by esmense on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:14:01 PM EST
    to see these objects AS visual objects. To put their utility aside for the moment to actually see them.

    What I object to, and I think it may be what observed was thinking about when he wrote of the charred paper that requires a verbal explanation, is the (often extremely banal) idea that actually supercedes the visual art. The physcial, visual piece comes second to the written word. Public art, so dependent on the written word to gain funding, often falls into this category. Writing the grant is the real work. Then you have to produce something to illustrate the grant.

    Seattle has long had a rather good public art program, but sometimes I've laughed on encountering not so attractive things that  scream "this was made with, and for, public money." Such as the "sculpture" that appeared outside the Public Safety Building (the jail) several years ago. A bunch of spindly trees corralled inside steel mesh fencing.

    Oh my.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#91)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:54:22 PM EST
    Well there is no shortage of bad art out there, but to imagine that a work of art exists outside of a text, or context, is absurd.

    Most of us take the "text" attached to any given piece of visual art that is accepted as part of history, for granted because by now that "text" is invisible.

    When Manet exhibited Olympia for the first time, it wound up being skied, IOW put near the ceiling in a crowed salon show, because no one could "see" it. This was the birth of Modernism, and it took some time for the public to let go of their idea  ("text") of what art is supposed to look like. Now that painting looks normal and is considered one of the great works of art.

    Even on an extremely literal sense, if you read the "text" next to a painting in a Museum, it can allow the viewer a way to contextualize the piece and make better sense of it.

    For instance knowing that Degas looked at the photographs of Étienne-Jules Marey a physiologist particularly interested in bird flight, this group of Ballet dancers in a series makes sense in a way that is not remotely apparent.

    The same is true for a contemporary work that appears enigmatic, being able to contextualize it is only possible through a text of some sort. The difference between that text and the text that allows us to make sense of Monet is that the "text" for the contemporary work is obscure, while the text for the Monet is in our bones by this point in time.

    Another big problem for understanding great art is that it is always beyond comprehension, always leaving room for imagination and contemplation. Once it gets reduced to a simple math formula it cannot be art. That is why many say in art 2+2=5. It never entirely adds up.

    Many have problems with this, and are afraid of looking the fool, so they cannot go beyond the surface of a charred piece of paper and see anything else than the literal. The refusal to entertain a "text" that may shed light on what appears to be nothing special, seems to me to be related to not wanting to be seen as a fool.

    Parent

    how art is (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by ZtoA on Mon May 10, 2010 at 07:56:40 PM EST
    contextualized- by whom, and into what agendized context - cuts many ways. There is a tension between a mental experience and a visual one. A visual language can be decontextualized and later recontextualized (ie cave paintings). The strength of the visual experience is of primary importance. Better if it is inclusive of as many aspects of the viewer as possible. Since art is a purely visual language it can be augmented and translated into verbal, but the primary strength is visual and is not owned by context.

    Those who seek to 'decommodify' art only serve to recommodify it, unfortunately.

    I'm in LA at the moment and spent a very enjoyable day at the (new) Getty. The collection is just fine. And besides one does not go to a museum to see their whole collection. I've been to the Getty many times since it opened and its like visiting old friends. This time I spent a couple hours with two rooms of Dutch art. There is a Rembrandt portrait where the pentimento is quite obvious in the subject's ear. Cannot really see that in reproductions - so it is exciting to see! I've developed a little 'dance' and manage to get my eyes very very close to art and the guards at the Getty are pretty cool. I always keep my hands behind my back and never anywhere near the works!

    The Huntington has a great collection of manuscripts too. Interestingly the Huntinton (a 'home' museum - like the original Getty, tho that was not really his home but a reproduction of a Roman villa) like the new Getty has amazing gardens too (besides the book collections). Both gardens have zig zag pathways over streams. Nice connection. Robert Irwin's work (the Central Garden at the Getty) is one of the most incredible pieces of contemporary installation art.

    Pls pardon typos - can't really see this hotel computer.

    Parent

    Well You Are Obviously Closed (none / 0) (#77)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:39:19 PM EST
    It is OK to have conservative ideas of what art should be, many do.

    But the fact that a charred piece of paper is visible to you, means that it has appealed to your senses. The fact that you do not find it appealing or in the least bit interesting is another thing all together.

    And it is utter fantasy on your part, to think that the art you do enjoy is not mediated by your knowledge, and experience. The ideal of the Modernist painters to create work that emulated the concept of a "disembodied eye" fell flat on its face.

    Nothing can be seen on purely visual terms. It has to be processed by the brain, at least enough so that you can differentiate it from nothingness.

    Parent

    I understand (none / 0) (#72)
    by Zorba on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:27:26 PM EST
    Greek a whole lot better than I understand post-Impressionist art, squeaky (look at my nom de blog!).  But I have to admit, because my kids are very much into fantasy and sci-fi and graphic novels, and very much like the art involved, I have had my eyes opened and have learned a lot from them, and can appreciate artists like Frazetta.  I also have come to appreciate Johns.  My daughter was instrumental in this- she took a lot of art courses in high school and college, and educated me (the old can, indeed, learn from the young).

    Parent
    Awesome discussion! (none / 0) (#83)
    by otherlisa on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:07:30 PM EST
    Thanks to everyone participating!

    I have a number of friends who are involved with the modern art world and I approach it more as sort of a tourist than from a very educated perspective, but this is all just fascinating.

    I was a visual arts major at UCSD for about a nano-second too -- tres conceptual/performance oriented.

    Parent

    Second that (none / 0) (#97)
    by ruffian on Mon May 10, 2010 at 08:45:11 PM EST
    thanks all. Very interesting.

    Parent
    OK (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by squeaky on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:00:03 PM EST
    But he broke through the paradigm of Abstract Expressionism (modernism) with his early work, which paved the way to pop and postmodernism. Warhol could not exist without Johns.

    Even Leo Steinberg was flummoxed by Johns work in1958:

    He writes in his essay, Contemporary Art and the Plight of the Public, "It seems that during this first encounter with Johns's work, few people were sure of how to respond, while some the dependable avant-garde critics applied tested avant-garde standards - which seemed suddenly to have grown old and ready for dumping. My own reaction was normal. I disliked the show, and would gladly have thought it a bore. Yet it depressed me and I wasn't sure why." In the works of Jasper Johns, Steinberg identifies a theme of great consequence that is not clear to the naked eye, that of waiting. Steinberg points out the "sense of desolate waiting" in Johns's works, which all contain objects (flags, faces, coat hangers, etc.) designed to move and function in a particular way, yet they are held absolutely rigid and still. This technique, according to Steinberg, is how Jasper Johns manages to invert the viewer's expectations of what makes for significant art.

    Whether you find the work compelling or not, Johns is in the cannon of Western Civilization. His work is seminal. If you have any interest in gaining access to the art of that era, Leo Steinberg's Other Criteria is a good place to start. His writing about Modernism, (Picasso, Pollack etc) makes it easier to understand where Johns and Rauchenberg were coming from.

    Parent

    I feel the same of a lot of (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:03:34 PM EST
    contemporary art as I do about bumper stickers.
    I love the idea but I dont put them on my car.

    I love some of the stuff he did but I would not want to live with it necessarily.


    Parent

    Jasper Johns Flag (none / 0) (#134)
    by squeaky on Tue May 11, 2010 at 11:01:15 PM EST
    $28.6 mil

    Parent
    I hope Frank is watching (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:11:30 PM EST
    and is pleased by this discussion being triggered by him.


    Parent
    If the Suns wear (none / 0) (#2)
    by MKS on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:00:37 PM EST
    their "Los Suns" jerseys in LA, they would get a lot of support and attention....and take away a fair number of fans from the Lakers....

    Um no (none / 0) (#130)
    by abdiel on Tue May 11, 2010 at 01:18:31 AM EST
    maybe during the regular season, but not in the Western Conference Finals.

    Fortunately for you, everyone still wants Los Suns to win. But it's a process of elimination, because nobody outside of LA is rooting for the Lakers.

    Parent

    Crush LA! n/t (none / 0) (#3)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:06:58 PM EST


    I need to stop ragging.... (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:11:11 PM EST
    on the church, or at least the 7th Day Adventists...they got no love for the police either.

    eff the po-lice, oh Lord? (none / 0) (#7)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:13:18 PM EST


    Parent
    Sirens and Lights... (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:19:30 PM EST
    sure do make this non-believer break into Hail Marys and Our Fathers:)

    "Holy Father, you can forgive these trespassers once you get 'em the hell outta my grill!"

    Parent

    Sometimes "the church" (none / 0) (#12)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:19:47 PM EST
    gets it close to right: that three part series on Youtube about "the Wall St Antichrist" I listened to last night, about the Randian roots of the Wall St barbarism of the last thirty years, seemed rather theologically on target.

    Ayn, monday through saturday and Jesus on Sunday..  

    Parent

    Yeah man... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by kdog on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:40:25 PM EST
    credit where it is due...The Beautitudes was another nail on the head from our religous friends, especially in a falsetto over a Reggae beat.

    And of course, The Sermon on the Mount...even noted humanist Kurt V. was down with some of that action.

    Parent

    Kurt.. (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:51:09 PM EST
    very much so. But he got in big trouble with the school board for saying in one of his books that Jesus may have been five feet tall,(and not six three and bearing a faint resemblance to Charlton Heston) :)

    Parent
    Greenspan.. (none / 0) (#16)
    by jondee on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:37:26 PM EST
    What exactly did he get a Presidential Medal Of Freedom for..? Being there... to artfully, exquisitely f*ck things up?

    Parent
    why I fit in here (none / 0) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:01:13 PM EST
    I just posted this pic in the newsgroups to let someone know they left it at my desk and it was instantly hacked and turned into this.

    note in addition to the bottom bit the addition of "buy carbine" at the top

    Game 6 v. Sacramento (none / 0) (#32)
    by MKS on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:18:19 PM EST
    At the time, the Lakers were in deep, deep trouble--and were bailed out by foul shooting....

    I was a big Lakers fan and it felt weird to me at the time....The Kings had a very, very good team.

    Then to see the ref admit to throwing the game.....No small feat.

    Bigger feat?  Making the story disappear from the press......disappear from the Earth....

    I could be mistaken (none / 0) (#52)
    by CoralGables on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:50:24 PM EST
    but believe you are placing a ref in the game that wasn't there.  Ex-referee Tim Donaghy said he believed a playoff game (believed to be Game 6) was thrown, but Tim Donaghy was not an official for the game and had no evidence to support his suspicions.

    Parent
    I hope that is true (none / 0) (#58)
    by MKS on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:58:01 PM EST
    But there were a lot of suspicious fouls called in Game 6 in Sacramento....

    But if what you say is correct, that would explaint why the press has not made more of the bribery scandal....

    Parent

    I read some more on this (none / 0) (#69)
    by MKS on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    and Donaghy did not work the game and was making a series of (unsupported) allegations against the league for fixing the game....He was  acting as an informant trying to get better treatment for himself.

    Move along, nothing to see here.  Go Lakers!

    Thanks for pointing this out...  

    Parent

    favorite newly discovered site (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:25:07 PM EST
    Fakescience

    I'd have to go back to the tape (none / 0) (#100)
    by brodie on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:15:20 PM EST
    to check my recollections on G6 in 2002, but reffing is not a science let alone a perfect one, though it's possible the Kings got royally scre∞ed that night.  Of course too, the Lakers in the Kobe-Shaq era did have a tendency to get behind and then come back from the dead, as with another elimination game in another year against another loaded team, the Trailblazers, from down 17 late in that one.

    Far as I'm concerned, they got whatever karmic payback was due for Sacramento or for the Shaq deal a few yrs later when they lost in the finals of the year Kobe and Shaq were bitterly fighting each other on the same team for the last time.  I think they're embarked on another championship run this year, if -- and maybe a big if -- they can consistently maintain some outside 3-pt credibility.

    As for the NBA, as professional leagues go, they're about the gold standard.  Not perfect, but better in treating their current and retired players and their fans, and unlike the NFL and MLB they have no current major issues over minority hiring at the head coach level nor are they without minority ownership, unlike the other two majors.  No major performance-enhancing illicit substance scandals like MLB, which has tarnished that game.  And no issues like the NFL over whether they adequately protect players from serious injuries.

    David Stern is generally a positive force for a pretty good league.  And Phil Jackson, formerly known as the Zen Master, only needs to answer for his recent unfortunate and unnecessary remarks about the AZ immigration law.  Advantage there to Los Suns and Steve Nash.  Though I will be pulling for the Lakers to ultimately prevail, because of Nash and the quality entertaining team they put on the court, I'll be asking for a full 7 games.      

    Axelrod: Pres. open to revising (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:18:39 PM EST
    Miranda. AP

    Not surprising (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Tue May 11, 2010 at 09:51:01 AM EST
    somehow.  But disappointing, again.  There is an agenda, it seems -- and once again, not the one surmised by those who wanted The One.  

    Parent
    Jeralyn: trial court rules against (none / 0) (#102)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:24:39 PM EST
    Polanski re motion to unseal Gunson's testimony.  AP

    Los Angeles Times: (none / 0) (#104)
    by oculus on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:30:53 PM EST
    LAT

    Parent
    Monday Afternoon Open Thread | 132 comments (132 topical)

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