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Saturday Morning Open Thread

I'm in Boston (ack!) for the next few days. So are the Celtics and Magic. Boo Celtics!

The UEFA Champions League final starts in an hour or so. Bayern v. Inter. No clue from me on this one.

The Giro d'Italia continues. Nice wrapup at PdC of Liquigas nice move today for Nibali. Zoncolan tomorrow though. A must see stage.

Meanwhile in Cali, Lance Armstrong is not racing in the ToC anymore, but remains the center of conversation, thanks to Floyd Landis' allegations of systematic doping by US Postal during Lance TdF reign. In the racing, there is a time trial today in LA which should decide the GC.

Open Thread.

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    sigh. I'm visiting my elderly parents, (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:04:14 PM EST
    and got a call that my apartment had been broken into. Apparently nothing of consequense is missing, though... Maybe they stole my home made spaghetti sauce? I'll find out tomorrow, I suppose.

    Aw, jeff, tough break. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by caseyOR on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:12:50 PM EST
    A home break-in is never good news, even if all that was taken is spaghetti sauce.

    Hope your parents are okay.

    Parent

    ty casey (none / 0) (#47)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:22:05 PM EST
    very old, very infirm for one, lweibody dementia... the other? mean as a snake!

    Parent
    Oh no, I'm really sorry about that (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:01:59 PM EST
    Can't catch a break, can you?

    Parent
    vida es dura (none / 0) (#54)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:04:05 PM EST
    and eventually we die. I"m beginning to appreciate fatalism more and more.

    Parent
    Apparently stung by criticism that his (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:26:17 PM EST
    response to the BP oil blow is proceeding at glacial speed,  President Obama, by executive order, appointed a bipartisan commission to study the matter just one month into the uncontrolled gusher. In his weekly address, he named Bob Graham, former senator and former governor of Florida and Bill Reilly, former EPA Administrator under George HW Bush as co-chairs. The Commission is to be  seven-membered, but the other five members have not yet been named, but probably will be soon, maybe before the second month's anniversary of the blow.  It seems incongruous to me that when the president finally acts to constitute an investigative body charged to determine what happened and if it will ever happen again, he, at the same time, seems obligated to assuage fears that off shore drilling might be in jeopardy owing to this pesky catastrophe. So, the announcement also included the following:  "because it represents 30 percent of our oil production, the Gulf of Mexico can play an important part in securing our energy future. Sort of a wink to big oil, that they need not worry too much, offshore leasing will continue unabated as soon as we get this monkey off our back--so rest easy, boys. Then again, maybe we should take heart in the president's  'on the other hand' follow-up .."but we can only pursue offshore drilling if we have assurances that a disaster like the BP oil spill will not happen again." Of course, no one has, and no one ever will be able to give that assurance, so maybe he is declaring that there will no more offshore drilling.  Or, maybe, we just need to watch the words carefully because he really does mean another disaster "like" the BP oil spill,  that is, not one that spills 70,000 barrels a day, but one more in the 50,000 barrel range would be  another story.

    Forming a commission is the classic (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by observed on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:31:20 PM EST
    joke response to a crisis.
    I really think that people were not fooled by such steps 20-30 years ago.
    By the way, there is another BP platform which  has the potential to turn into an even worse disaster---_I think its' called the Atlantic.
    BP failed to submit thousands of engineering diagrams for this platform.

    BP has a great track record: first Prudhoe Bay, now this.

    Parent

    BP does, indeed, have quite (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:11:45 PM EST
    a track record of environmental crimes.  The Texas City Refinery explosion in 2005, with a felony violation resulting in a $50 million fine and three years probation coupled with an OSHA fine of $87 million for 270 safety violations previously cited but not corrected; in 2000 BP was fined $500,000 for failing to report dumping by its contractor, Doyon Drilling, in the Alaskan North Slope; as mentioned, the Prudhoe Bay spill in 2006 and 2007, involving the corrosive pipeline leading to the Alaskan pipeline, where BP was trying to avoid the costs of corrections until the oil ran out.  In the Texas Refinery (15 killed and many injured) the investigator blamed BP management failures from Texas to London.

    Parent
    And he wants a report in.... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:59:45 PM EST
    six months.

    He is leaving BP at the helm and they do not have our interests as their first concern. And we should not expect it to since it is a corporation and interested in its own profits. The US government acts on our behalf, and so we are going to get a commission.

    Everything is getting politicized. And in this case it is working directly against addressing and containing this disaster.

    Parent

    Obama had darn better well (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by brodie on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:22:16 PM EST
    be stung by the criticism, especially when it's coming on national teevee from very loyal non-lefty Dems like James Carville and mainstream indy centrists like historian Doug Brinkley.  That's two nights in a row Carville's gone off on Obama for his "naive partnering" with BP.

    Obama needs to stop with treating BP with kid gloves and start barking orders to the foreign corporation instead.  Terrible optics so far, and an alarmingly casual strategic response that seems designed to emulate Junior's Katrina non-response response.  

    Meanwhile as the Obama admin ought to be taking steps to immediately take control of the Gulf, as Carville put it last night "BP ought to lawyer up, shut up, and start writing checks."

    Parent

    And Tweety is losing that tingle (none / 0) (#59)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:25:50 PM EST
    too, I read.  Is Obama losing his sex appeal?!

    Parent
    Tweety said that Obama (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by byteb on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:42:27 PM EST
    has been acting like a "Vatican observer" about this environmental nightmare.

    Parent
    Holy Altar Boy, (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:15:32 PM EST
    Tweety really knows how to hurt a guy.

    Parent
    Heh. Well, Tweety (none / 0) (#64)
    by brodie on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:37:43 PM EST
    is quite a towel-snapping piece of work, and Obama should be careful if some of his media courtiers are showing signs of distress.

    Just some bizarre choices lately by this admin, sort of in a one step forward, one back pattern that's beginning to annoy some of us loyal Dems ...

    Parent

    Between Rock and the Deep Blue Sea (none / 0) (#65)
    by bison on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:47:53 PM EST
    There are NOW reports that the GEOLOGICAL STRUCTURE ITSELF beneath THIS well is showing signs of giving way... fracturing... CRUMBLING...

    To try a "BL0W0UT" as some others suggest with THIS WELL could possibly cause the STRATA to COLLAPSE & THAT would be "Goodbye Charlie".... the oil continuing to be released until it was ALL GONE.

    NOT worth taking that chance.

    The government response to this unprecedented disaster was quicker than  any other in history... the COAST GUARD deployed immediately after the FIRST MAYDAY.

    The ONLY thing that could have been better coordinated is the convening of the best experts OUTSIDE the industry to work on stopping the hemorrhage.

    "WILD WELL CONTROL".. (the preeminent "hellcat" outfit) was contacted the DAY of the collapse.

    If, as some have suggested, a "State of Emergency" is declared, that would get BP OFF THE HOOK as to their responsibility to PAY for ANY of this.

    Solution?

    ps:  picked this up along the way


    Parent

    Yeah, it's a miracle of (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by observed on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:50:23 PM EST
    coordination. This comment reads like it came from the war room.
    Why did it take 1 month to let the public know the actual rate of leakage?
    I don't understand your comment about the state of emergency and BP.
    Declaring a state of emergency wouldn't retroactively immunize BP for the damage already done.

    Parent
    Obviously (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:55:40 PM EST
    Because of Obama.

    If only we had someone better everything would be different, seems like a boring saw, at this point.

    Parent

    We DO have someone else (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:40:43 PM EST
    working this problem

    If only we had someone better everything would be different, seems like a boring saw, at this point.

    We have BP and they are triaging (is that a word?) it according to their financial interests, as makes sense for a for-profit oil corporation. My only complaint about Obama administration is that they have been too hands off so far. They are being criticized for it from friends now, and I hope they take notice.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:43:32 PM EST
    Seems to me that the WH sent a team down to assist... The problem is more that this is a catastrophe, without an obvious solution, less than Obama being a slacker about it, imo.

    Parent
    I am not sure you are right on this issue,Squeaky. (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:28:31 PM EST
    If George Bush (God forbid) were president he would be taken to task on this response, and rightly so.  President Obama has been treated rather gingerly holding his feet to the fire with an unlighted match.  It is a challenge for sure, but the Administration's response, from my perspective, has been too weak.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#96)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:44:28 PM EST
    Admittedly I have not been paying close attention to this disaster, too painful...  But it seems to me, apart from the typical Oil industry denial self serving BS, no one has been able to figure out how to stop this thing as of yet.

    IOW I do not know what Obama could be doing other than getting top people involved in trying to stop this thing.

    Parent

    "no one" has been able to stop this?? (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 08:17:57 PM EST
    You mean no one at BP. And who do they answer to? And if you check into the timeline you will clearly see BP clicking thru "fixes" on a cost basis. Obama administration has lent support to BP (mostly coast guard). Some are starting to ask if lending support to BP is in the best interests of the gulf.

    Parent
    My feeling is that if (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 22, 2010 at 08:19:03 PM EST
    you give your usual thoroughness of study to this issue, you will tend to agree with my assessment.  In a NYT op ed column of today there are some good thoughts presented by some noted scientists along your idea of marshaling all available resources.

    Parent
    Second To Iraq War (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 10:57:13 PM EST
    Ixtoc I
    The 2-mile-deep exploratory well, Ixtoc I, blew out on June 3, 1979 in the Bay of Campeche off Ciudad del Carmen, Mexico. By the time the well was brought under control in March, 1980, an estimated 140 million gallons of oil had spilled into the bay. The Ixtoc I spill is currently #2 on the all-time list of largest oil spills of all time.

    Iraq war 900,000,000 barrels lost was not from a well.

    This is going to be the biggest disaster ever. I do not think that the solution is so obvious.

    Parent

    BP Gulf Oil Spill Estimates (none / 0) (#102)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 11:06:40 PM EST
    70,000 barrels/day x 35 days = 2,450,000

    Parent
    How long does it take (none / 0) (#99)
    by christinep on Sat May 22, 2010 at 10:47:13 PM EST
    Admittedly, the time for moving in with a harsher Administration tone is here. But, going back about a week or two, KeysDan, the approach was a lot more problematical than first appears. In an oil clean-up situation, the company is expected to use its knowledge, resources, & skills to bring about the clean-up. Isn't the question that concerns you the timing of when the Coast Guard should have pushed aside BP and taken the whole thing on itself? Of course, if noone really knew the answer in the immediate sense, did it not make sense to push BP as long as possible to be in the forefront of responding to & cleaning up the mess they made. While I agree that the situation has taken on the flavor of going-the-extra-mile to cooperate with the not-so-forthcoming BP, at what point should that jump shift have taken place in the context of clean-up protocols for spills? (BTW, in my mind, the real flaw in the system was the organization--now about to be changed and appropriately split--where the permitting component of MMS also housed inspections and enforcement. That Bushian structure undoubtedly led to the sloppy practice of singular EISs and categorical mass permitting.)
    It is a mess now; a travesty. And, that is the real difficulty: This now seems to be one of those situations for which noone has a quick workable solution.

    Parent
    how would the coast guard (none / 0) (#100)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 10:53:21 PM EST
    "push aside" BP? Under what authority?

    IMO there were structural flaws and response flaws.

    Parent

    So do you agree that the administration (none / 0) (#68)
    by observed on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:57:54 PM EST
    has done a bang up job so far?
    If not, what was the point of your comment?


    Parent
    If Only.... (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:05:32 PM EST
    Seems like a stupid idea. Particularly around a disaster like this.

    But, the theme song seems to much fun to stop now.

    Parent

    Ah, that internal conversation thing (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by observed on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:06:19 PM EST
    is going on again. Never mind.

    Parent
    Wild Well Controls (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:01:05 PM EST
    was contacted after the blow, true.  Of course, we know that the big box did not work and the top hat was discarded along the way.  When asked why a containment device was not already on hand as a part of its safety program,  BP just claimed that no one could have expected a blow.  The entire BP response seems to have been something like we did not expect a fire, so why have a fire department--if we need one, we will build one.  

    Parent
    bison (none / 0) (#79)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:14:58 PM EST
    do you have links about the geological structure giving way? The well shaft goes thru 13,000-19,000(in some reports) feet of rock. That's a lot of structure to give way.

    Is a "blowout" the same thing as a "Top Kill"?

    We've been discussing in an old thread, but indeed this well appears to be uniquely poorly designed.

    Parent

    Has he formed a bipartisan (none / 0) (#61)
    by observed on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:28:57 PM EST
    commission on global warming yet?


    Parent
    'assurances' can mean different things (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:06:21 PM EST
    To different people. I'll never be assured this won't happen again. What could oil companies possibly say that would 'assure' anyone that is not predisposed to believe them? Laughable.

    Parent
    Meanwhile, Pads. lose bigtime (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    to Seattle, purported interleague rivals.

    And KUSC FM is streaming LA Opera performance of Rossini's "The Barbara of Seville."

    purported - love that! (none / 0) (#3)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:24:23 PM EST
    Does anyone really care about interleague play until the WorldSeries?

    I thought not.

    Parent

    The radio guys during last night's game (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:26:30 PM EST
    were kidding about this so-called rivalry.  Pads and Mariners share a spring training complex in Peoria, AZ.  

    Parent
    That's funny (none / 0) (#7)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:31:50 PM EST
    Glad they aren't manufacturing some hype.

    I hate how the 'new' divisions (I still think they are new)  disrupted the old rivalries. The Brewers and Astros are not my enemy, sorry.  Still hate those Mets! I guess younger fans will grow up with the new rivalries and never understand my Mets obsession.

    Parent

    Flying soon? To be discombobulated (none / 0) (#2)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:24:22 PM EST
    at the hands of Homeland Security?

    So are we -- but at least at our airport, the workers feel our pain and have a sense of humor, so they put up this sign.  And scroll down to the comment that links to the annual American Dialect Society's awards -- the airport workers won the award for "most creative."

    I'm going their sign in mind to try to keep a sense of humor, too, in every airport experience we soon must endure until we also can reach the end of our journey -- and experience recombobulation, too.

    Wonder if Homeland Security is (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:28:24 PM EST
    aware of this sign?

    Unsolicited advice:  don't make any jokes at airport.  

    Have a wonderful trip.  You hit the Euro just exactly right.

    Parent

    Isn't that something? The Euro- (none / 0) (#23)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:20:20 PM EST
    to-dollar ratio did not look good at all months ago, when we started planning for this.

    It will help to compensate with unexpected higher costs of rent and more for this program, apparently from soaring inflation in Italy.  So the Euro-to-dollar ratio does not tell us all of what is happening to the economy there.

    Parent

    You might want to explore taking (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:56:10 PM EST
    train to Naples from Rome.  Object:  museum in which most of the artifacts, including murals, removed from Pompeii are on display.  Another travel goal.  

    Parent
    Off to Rome soon? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:38:09 PM EST
    Have a wonderful trip, get totally discombobulated on some good vino, and enjoy that gelato.

    Looks like I may be going to Venice in July with my brother and niece. So I will be looking forward to your tales of Italy!

    Parent

    Fun. Take excellent walking (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:40:17 PM EST
    shoes and prepare for lots of people and hot and humid weather.  But Venice is Venice.  Wonderful.  

    Parent
    thank you! (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:49:47 PM EST
    I think I have the hot and humid thing covered, surviving my 4th Orlando summer. It will still be cooler than it is here in July - it's all relative!

    Crowds aren't my specialty, but unfortunately traveling with my brother the professor means we go places in the summer. That's OK though - he and my niece are excellent companions and we are all compatible in that way.  We will figure out how to escape the crowds when we need to.

    Hardest thing will be preventing my brother from getting lost. He has a history!

    Parent

    I am directionally challenged so (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:54:14 PM EST
    simpatico.  Maybe that's why you are going--to save him from himself?  (My friend, who has an excellent sense of direction and is very skilled with map, insisted on walking with me to La Fenice.  I had a ticket for La Traviata.  She didn't but was worried I wouldn't find it although we had walked past the theatre often.  I did ask for directions afterward.)  How old is your niece?  

    Parent
    Are You Left Handed? (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:02:44 PM EST
    Nope. Please don't hold that against me. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:06:29 PM EST
    Anyhow, it's the Hippocampus. (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:09:21 PM EST
    Lesions? (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:14:56 PM EST
    I'm directionally challenged to the (none / 0) (#19)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:13:37 PM EST
    point where my current strategy is to

    1. Logically figure out which way to turn
    2. Turn in the opposite direction

    Not full proof but definitely has increased my accuracy rating. :-)

    Parent
    Are You Left Handed? (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:14:20 PM EST
    No (none / 0) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:27:46 PM EST
    That is exactly the advice of a good friend (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:26:17 PM EST
    whose sense of direction is infallible.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:31:13 PM EST
    There are those whose directional wires are crossed and they have an excellent sense of direction just that it is opposite, mostly left handed... Members of that group would do well to follow MO's advice.  

    Those who have no sense of direction, on the other hand, would not increase their chances of getting it right, by going in the opposite direction.

    Parent

    I'm left handed (none / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:56:22 PM EST
    And sometimes it does seem like things are just the opposite of where I think they are. Spatial relation problems are really tough. I have to hold the map in the direction I am facing and check it 100 times.

    I  will give that 'do the opposite' method a try next time I'm in doubt. .

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:07:12 PM EST
    Although there is an interesting correlation between people with dyslexia and having great spatial sense. Just because someone thinks in mirror image does not mean that they do not have a really good spatial sense.

    It is counter intuitive, but many really good architects and sculptors are dyslexic, directionally challenged but have excellent spatial sense.

    I tend to remember things in mirror image (flipped) and also almost always walk in the exact opposite direction, particularly when I am not familiar with the landmarks, yet I have a really good spatial sense, just flipped.

    I am left handed, too. I used to think that thinking in mirror image was due to imitating other who are largely right handed. Not sure if that is true, although it certainly reinforces any tendency to think in mirror image.  

    Parent

    Maybe! I thought I was just tagging along (none / 0) (#29)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:39:10 PM EST
    but it may be serving a practical purpose! He has friends going also, so between all of us we should do OK. I'm not instinctually very good with directions, but I do always have a map with me and like keeping track of where I am and what is around me. I think my brother just does not pay attention to anything that down to earth!

    My niece is almost 24, if that is possible. In a wonderful twist of fate, her mom (brother's ex)  and step dad moved here to Orlando when she was a little girl, and I have gotten to see her a lot since I moved here 4 years ago. She's a real joy, and I'm looking forward to sharing this experience with her. She just got her English lit M.A. at U of Chicago, and is contemplating a doctorate - moving to LA in the fall with her boyfriend who will pursue his at SC.  

    Not sure she has much more common sense than her dad though! ;-)

    Parent

    I have considered getting my spouse (none / 0) (#31)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:43:27 PM EST
    who also is directionally challenged, a European GPS -- as our U.S. version has been a huge help to him, both driving and on foot.  There were some hilarious reports when he went over along last year.

    So I also am going along for practical purposes, I suppose, as I also am an inveterate maplover -- first thing I do before going anywhere and again when landing anywhere is to study maps to get a sense of town grids, landmarks, etc.  

    But then, I also have learned to sometimes just put away the maps and allow for serendipitous wandering off the planned paths for some of our best times.:-)

    Parent

    Oh yes, gotta do some aimless wandering, (none / 0) (#35)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:47:23 PM EST
    and getting lost a little is part of the fun!

    But walking for 2 hours at 3 am in Dublin like my brother did looking for his hotel is not in my plan! And I don't think he was even drunk!

    Parent

    Although that is how I "found" the (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:13:09 PM EST
    Hill of Tara (Irish pub) in Kyoto.  

    Parent
    Except in Japan, I have been able to (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:07:18 PM EST
    use the GPS on my ATT phone outside U.S.  Need to call ATT International desk to set it up.  Best to ask for international desk tech person.  

    Parent
    I know for a fact (none / 0) (#30)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:39:35 PM EST
    that one can orient themselves in Venice via the gelatto stands. You just stop at every one and try a different flavor, then you map the whole city via taste buds. It works.

    Parent
    Like your mapping system (none / 0) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:46:37 PM EST
    Yum yum

    Parent
    Ha! I think we have (none / 0) (#34)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:46:40 PM EST
    a possible moneymaker here -- a gelato map of the world!

    Parent
    I think there's an app for that! (none / 0) (#36)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:48:49 PM EST
    Uh oh. Venice is an easy place to get lost. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Angel on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:08:58 PM EST
    You can be on a street and then turn the corner, try to go back where you came from but can't figure it out!  Seriously, take your cell phones so you can keep up with each other....otherwise you'll be searching and searching for each other for hours.  And, just a suggestion:  if you do get separated from each other, plan a rendezvous time and place as a last resort.

    Parent
    Particularly At Night (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:14:18 PM EST
    it's a labyrinth..

    Parent
    Did you see the movie of Ian McEwan's (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:10:21 PM EST
    novel, "In the Comfort of Strangers"?

    Parent
    Is there a movie? (none / 0) (#80)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:18:18 PM EST
    That book scared the bejeesus out of me.  I was thinking of it too, with all the talk of getting lost. I'll have to get the movie on Netflix if I can stand it.

    Did you read John Berendt's 'The City of Falling Angels', about Venice and the fire at La Fenice?  I read it last year when I had no idea of going anytime soon.

    Parent

    The movie is plenty scary. Christopher (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:20:53 PM EST
    Walken and Helen Mirren play the couple in the palacio. I didn't make it to the end of the movie.  Guy selling popcorn saked if the slashing just started.  I sd., Yes.

    Have you read McEwan's "Solar" yet?  I am 9 of 9 in the library queue.

    Parent

    Correction: Rupert Everett. Not Walken. (none / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:09:30 PM EST
    I did read the Berendt book--before (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:29:08 PM EST
    I went to la Fenice.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#84)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:24:38 PM EST
    Just been through the streets of Venice late at night...

    But the movie looks great.. Harold Pinter did the screenplay

    Parent

    Haven't seen the movie....definitely won't now (none / 0) (#105)
    by Angel on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:05:15 PM EST
    that I know what it's about!

    Parent
    Spoiler alert. Another movie based on (none / 0) (#107)
    by oculus on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:07:27 PM EST
    an Ian McEwan novel is "The Cement Garden."  A friend and I took off early from work to see it, without any advance info.  Depressing.  

    Parent
    Thanks for reminders -- (none / 0) (#50)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:51:06 PM EST
    we have learned to always take such steps, but need to remember to do so again -- and even before cellphones, my spouse got walkie-talkies for our trips.  Some of the family thought they were quite funny, like throwback 1950s toys.

    Interestingly, they came in most useful on a regular ol' road trip not that far from home, traveling within the Midwest with family in several cars to a Christmas reunion.  I.e., winter -- which can turn any regular ol' road trip in the Midwest into disaster, and it did.  A blizzard that howled down from the north two days ahead of predictions, while we all were on I-94.  So as accidents happened by the dozens, and some family got slowed down behind others of us, they were able to let us know -- while we were able to tell them (especially the navigationally challenged who cannot cope with maps) which turnoffs to take that we already had seen, to tell them when they would be past the storm, where to meet up again, etc.

    Nobody made fun of my spouse's walkie-talkie toys after that.

    Parent

    U.S. cell phones may not work in Italy. (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:34:04 PM EST
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  But e mail does if you have smart phones.

    Parent
    We have some Italian cell phones (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:06:24 PM EST
    waiting for us.  I am hoping that mine will come with gelato map apps -- or at least the gelato withdrawal crisis hotline number on speed dial. :-)

    Parent
    oh man, we are goners (none / 0) (#76)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:08:19 PM EST
    I will stick to them like glue, and at least if we get lost we will be together.

    Parent
    lol Just be smart... (none / 0) (#106)
    by Angel on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:05:51 PM EST
    Oh, and let me know if you make it to (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:41:57 PM EST
    Torcello, an unfulfilled goal.  Mosaics.

    Parent
    I loved Venice when I was there a couple of (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Angel on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:05:34 PM EST
    years ago.  Truly a magnificent city.  Loved the water taxis, all the hanging out just people watching, great food, gelato, friendly people, art, early morning and late evening strolls, Venetian glass.....I could go on.  Would love to live there.

    Parent
    oh YES, the venician glass! (none / 0) (#57)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:20:30 PM EST
    I went on a tour of Murano glass workshops, which was fascinating (I get into 'how things work' and really appreciate high craftsmanship). Only problem, then I was let to a showroom and literally followed around till I bought something. The stuff in the show room was really expensive too, and I got the tiniest and cheapest thing there - a lovely necklace of strange glass shapes. Murano is on another island since it is full of furnaces and for some reason Venetians did not want explosive furnaces on their wood island.

    Murano has "owned" glass for many centuries and only recently has Pilchuck challenged it from Seattle.

    Also, Titian was venetian. Basilica di Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari has his Assumption of the Virgin which is glorious! I find it interesting that he used natural oxides for his reds and golds. Basically he transferred local dirt to the walls.

    Parent

    We saw a fabulous glass exhibit (none / 0) (#63)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:36:02 PM EST
    near the Academia bridge in a restored palacio.  Including Rauschenberg "tires."  Adjunct exhibit to Venice Bienialle.  

    Parent
    I will have to bookmark this thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:06:43 PM EST
    Thanks for all the suggestions!

    Parent
    We took a water taxi over to the Murano glass (none / 0) (#104)
    by Angel on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:03:36 PM EST
    factories, made some exquisite purchases and had them shipped home.  The place we stayed at in Venice had a 6-foot wide Venetian glass chandelier over the bed!  I took photos of that thing while on my back one evening.  :))  Many, many fabulous and romantic memories of Venice....

    Parent
    Soon! Si. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:16:16 PM EST
    And amid packing now -- near the stage of figuring out which half to take out.:-)

    Necessary accessories have arrived -- my daughter purchased knockoffs in her trip to NYC, gratis us for her great grades, so she requires me to travel to Italia with trendy massive sunglasses (I look like an alien:-) and a faux Coach bag.  She also is attempting to get me to put on toenail polish, but I must draw the line somewhere. . . .

    Btw, your Roman colleague's to-do list has been forwarded by my spouse to his colleagues already or soon to be there, and they are most appreciative, too.  And if by any chance we figure out how to get to Venice (still hoping for a long weekend getaway from work schedule there), we shall search out gelato stops for you!

    Parent

    Hope you have a great time! (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:37:26 PM EST
    funny on the sunglasses! (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:44:04 PM EST
    At the very least I will want packing and wardrobe advice from you.

    I learned last year not to bring shorts to Europe - I guess that more than anything else will mark you as an American. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I don't like to stand out!

    Glad the list will get some use. I will report back to Luca on what you saw. He will be glad. I think it came through that he is very proud of his home.

    Parent

    Have a fun and safe trip!!! (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Angel on Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:10:13 PM EST
    Ah, Venice ... (none / 0) (#55)
    by brodie on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:04:15 PM EST
    And imagine what a great place it would be if only someone would drain out all that water!

    As for Rome, if you're visiting the Vatican, please give the Pope a piece of my mind about the sex scandal and coverup.  

    Also don't forget to report back on the real reason why the RCC has that peculiar statue in the Vatican museum courtyard, the one of the large pine cone.  I understand there's also a pine cone on the head of the Pope's personal wooden staff.  What in tarnation is going on with the Church and all the pine cones?

    Parent

    Oh, forgot (none / 0) (#60)
    by brodie on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:26:07 PM EST
    to cite.  Not making this up, folks, it's there, a 1st century creation.

    Parent
    Pine cone? Or artichoke? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Cream City on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:03:55 PM EST
    I will attempt to find the answer and report back.

    If allowed. :-)

    Parent

    Probably something the Borgia's started (none / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:06:32 PM EST
    Pine nuts, aphrodisiacs (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:08:49 PM EST
    and Freudian slips..

    And rain drops on roses and whiskers on kittens..

    Parent

    Hey Squeaky, (none / 0) (#81)
    by ZtoA on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    isn't this where Jeff Koons installed his Topiary Puppy? It looks familiar. I figured you would know.

    Parent
    First Installed In Germany (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:29:31 PM EST
    Koons was commissioned in 1992 to create a piece for an art exhibition in Bad Arolsen, Germany. The result was Puppy, a forty-three feet (12.4 m) tall topiary sculpture of a West Highland White Terrier puppy, executed in a variety of flowers on a steel substructure. In 1995, the sculpture was dismantled and re-erected at the Museum of Contemporary Art on Sydney Harbour on a new, more permanent, stainless steel armature with an internal irrigation system.

    The piece was purchased in 1997 by the Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation and installed on the terrace outside the Guggenheim Museum Bilbao.[7] Before the dedication at the museum, an Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA) trio disguised as gardeners attempted to plant explosive-filled flowerpots near the sculpture, [8] but was foiled by Basque police officer Jose María Aguirre, who then was shot dead by ETA members.[9][10] Currently the square in which the statue is placed bears the name of Aguirre. In the summer of 2000, the statue travelled to New York City for a temporary exhibition at Rockefeller Center.

    Media mogul Peter Brant and his wife, model Stephanie Seymour, have an exact Jeff Koons duplicate of the Bilbao statue on the grounds of their Connecticut estate.

    WiKi

    I saw it in Germany... great piece... Particularly love the tidbit about the ETA hiding their rocket launchers in the piece at Bilbao


    Parent

    Isn't the puppy in Bilboa? Or is there (none / 0) (#83)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:22:02 PM EST
    more than one such puppy?

    Parent
    Bilbao, Guggenheim: (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:27:52 PM EST
    More Than One... (none / 0) (#88)
    by squeaky on Sat May 22, 2010 at 05:32:12 PM EST
    But of course... recently acquired by mega collector Peter Brant at his private museum in Greenwich, CT.  

    Parent
    La Pigna = eternal life (none / 0) (#103)
    by Cream City on Sun May 23, 2010 at 08:57:59 AM EST
    I looked it up, the largest pigna (pine cone) in the world, and it is -- yet another pagan symbol, signifying eternal life (regenerating evergreens, and you can't get more eternal than to be ever green:-), adopted by the Catholic church.

    Reminds me of Ireland, where the sheena, the (quite explicit!) pagan fertility goddess, can be spotted even on churches (and many other sites).

    Parent

    Just fired up the sprinkler system... (none / 0) (#6)
    by magster on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:29:17 PM EST
    ...and no geysers from cracked pipes or sprinkler heads -- woo hoo!  

    Congratulations! (none / 0) (#10)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:41:00 PM EST
    You will not have to get wet and muddy today.

    Parent
    unless you want to (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by ruffian on Sat May 22, 2010 at 01:41:17 PM EST
    Boston. Museum of Fine Arts (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:05:31 PM EST
    special exhibit on costumes worn by No actors.   MFA  Having sat in an unheated old theatre for five hours for No drama entirely in Japanese, this interests me.

    Interesting interview about San Diego PD (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dadler on Sat May 22, 2010 at 02:30:09 PM EST