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Should Branch Rickey Have Signed Jackie Robinson?

On the ESPN Radio show, Mike and Mike in the morning, a question being debated is 'should MLB involve itself in the Arizona immigration debate?' To me, this is an astounding question. When the NFL pulled the Super Bowl out of Arizona over the rescinding of the Martin Luther King holiday, did anyone question whether it was "appropriate" for the NFL to do that? If they did, I do not recall it.

But to put this in a historic perspective, can you imagine the idea of asking whether Branch Rickey should have "injected" baseball into the political question of segregation when he signed Jackie Robinson? Certainly not today. So how come this is even a question?

Speaking for me only

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    Jackie Robinson (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon May 03, 2010 at 08:46:16 AM EST
    was one of those people who change the atmosphere in a room when they enter. I met him once, he shook my hand, and it was a moment in my life that still brings a feeling of such peace when I think of it. He came to my school's mock political convention to speak on behalf of Nelson Rockefeller in 1964.

    For Nelson Rockefeller? (none / 0) (#11)
    by bocajeff on Mon May 03, 2010 at 10:05:16 AM EST
    He was a Republican? Well that blows that narrative a bit...

    Parent
    According to JR's widow, (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by brodie on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:28:23 AM EST
    he was a registered Indy.  

    He was a moderate, except was more liberal on civil rights.  His one major misread there was JFK in '60. Publicly backed Nixon in '60 (an endorsement he regretted by Nov).  Backed Rockerfeller in '64, then went for Johnson in the general.  For Humphrey in '68.

    Parent

    I said "a bit" (none / 0) (#53)
    by bocajeff on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:23:43 PM EST
    Blacks were liberal, republicans were racists, etc...

    Parent
    Just curious (none / 0) (#16)
    by prittfumes on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:05:40 AM EST
    How and why is the narrative "[blown] a little bit"?
    Thanks.

    Parent
    Not really (none / 0) (#23)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:27:31 AM EST
    The Republicans purged all Rockefeller, i.e., liberal Republicans from their ranks years ago....."Rockefeller Republican" is (was) a term of derision among Republicans....

    The last of the Rockefeller Republicans date to about the time he was Vice President....i.e., Gerald Ford....Nixon deployed the Southern Strategy and that wave crashed ashore in 1980 with the election of Reagan.

    It is true, some Democrats opposed Civil Rights and some Republicans supported it.  But those Democrats were conservative, and those Republicans were liberal.......  

    Parent

    Yes, for Nelson (none / 0) (#91)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon May 03, 2010 at 05:18:58 PM EST
    He was a great speaker...very captivating. I was all of 14 years old. Small town on the northeast corner of Seattle had some really ambitious high schoolers who managed to get a few very impressive speakers to this mock convention.

    Parent
    Some of Rickey's (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by kdog on Mon May 03, 2010 at 08:52:59 AM EST
    fellow MLB executives sure wish he hadn't injected the game into a "political question"...but doing the right thing is often unpopular.

    Although I have read Rickey wasn't (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Mon May 03, 2010 at 04:23:58 PM EST
    trying to make a civil rights statement.  He was trying to make money.  And did.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#92)
    by CoralGables on Mon May 03, 2010 at 05:59:07 PM EST
    There were three teams that moved black ballplayers up that season in an attempt to win more games. Rickey was first though and we sure never hear anything about the owners of the Cleveland Indians or the St Louis Browns from '47. Larry Doby and Hank Thompson played in relative anonymity by comparison in 1947. Hollywood sometimes creates our stars but it didn't hurt that Jackie hit .297 while Thompson hit .256 and Doby just .156 for the season. Nor does it hurt that Brooklyn went to the World Series in '47 and had two other future Hall of Famers on the team in Duke Snyder and Pee Wee Reese.

    Little known fact...in 1946 while Jackie was playing minor league ball for the Dodgers in Canada, Roy Campanella and Don Newcombe were playing minor league ball for the Nashua Dodgers in New Hampshire, and are believed to be the first blacks to actually play on an integrated professional baseball team in the States since the 1800's.

    Parent

    Newcombe was present at a vendor- (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Mon May 03, 2010 at 06:34:42 PM EST
    sponsored reception I attended before I had any interest in baseball.  I could have gotten a baseball w/his autograph (for free!).  But I declined.  How dumb was that?

    Parent
    Perhaps (none / 0) (#95)
    by CoralGables on Mon May 03, 2010 at 06:55:26 PM EST
    you were holding out for Ollie Brown.

    Parent
    The Super Bowl was pulled... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon May 03, 2010 at 09:05:01 AM EST
    ... because that is what the (mostly black) NFL players wanted. If the (largely  hispanic) MLB players refuse to go to the All-Star game in Arizona, it won't be played there.

    AFL All Star Game in Jan, 1965 (5.00 / 0) (#5)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon May 03, 2010 at 09:14:15 AM EST
    was moved from New Orleans to Texas because of racism in New Orleans.

    the players refused to play there. Let's see some leadership from among the players.

    Parent

    In 1946... (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by rdandrea on Mon May 03, 2010 at 10:32:27 AM EST
    ...Penn State players voted to cancel a game against Miami because Miami said the team's two "negroes" couldn't play.  "We play all or none" was the team's response.

    The following year, the undefeated 1947 Lions were chosen to play SMU in the Cotton Bowl.  SMU sought a meeting with Penn State to get the Lions to leave their two black players home.  Steve Suhey, a sophomore offensive guard said, "We are Penn State.  There will be no meeting."

    One of the black players was Wally Triplett, the first African-American player to be drafted and play in the NFL.

    Story here

    There is ample precedent in sports of athletes doing the right thing.

    Parent

    That quote from the 47 Lions: (none / 0) (#55)
    by scribe on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:29:32 PM EST
    "WE are Penn State" is the source of the chant often heard at Penn State games.

    And that wasn't the only time teams declined to play because of Jim Crow.  Here's another example.

    Parent

    The MLB Players Association (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by ruffian on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:16:39 AM EST
    has said they are considering action if the law goes into effect:  From their statement:

    The Major League Baseball Players Association opposes this law as written. We hope that the law is repealed or modified promptly. If the current law goes into effect, the MLBPA will consider additional steps necessary to protect the rights and interests of our members.

    Also many individual players are speaking out.

    Parent

    Cool fact (none / 0) (#46)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:58:08 PM EST
    I never paid attention to the AFL....It was an inferior league, you know...

    Parent
    Until Joe Namath came along (none / 0) (#60)
    by rdandrea on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:37:00 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    Bad knees--he doesn't count (none / 0) (#63)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:44:57 PM EST
    Why are you prejudiced against the AFL? (none / 0) (#65)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:55:39 PM EST
    What, are you from some old industrial eastern seaboard city, or something? Or do you not  like them because of Jack Kemp?

    The afl INFERIOR? HEH. I gesture rudely (but not vulgarly) at you, MKS. ;P

    Parent

    Just wimps (none / 0) (#67)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:02:46 PM EST
    All pass, pass, pass.   No tough defense.  No Butkis.  

    The AFl didn't play real football, they played catch....

    Except for the Jets, Raiders and Chiefs....Poor Vikes...

    Parent

    Buck Buchanon, Elvin Bethea, Willie Brown, (none / 0) (#72)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:14:07 PM EST
    Bobby Bell, Nick Buoniconi, Ernie "the Cat' Ladd, Wahoo McDaniel (23 tacles in a single game)

    Nah, no defense in that league. Two good pro wrestlers, though.

    sheesh. I guess Francis Tarkenton woulda fit right in, lol.

    Parent

    Speaking of which, (none / 0) (#76)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:37:39 PM EST
    I just a saw a t.v. special on Joe Kapp.  And, they said he was Mexican American--news to me, I had heard he was Native American.

    And I seem to forget exactly how it was the Vikes ended up with Francis instead of Kapp.....A travesty, that was...  

    Parent

    Yeah. Kapp played out his option (none / 0) (#93)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon May 03, 2010 at 06:06:14 PM EST
    and NOBODY signed him. Collusion? No way dude

    Parent
    Interesting historical point. (none / 0) (#83)
    by brodie on Mon May 03, 2010 at 03:47:24 PM EST
    And I have to wonder if the NFL had scheduled an all-star game in segregated N.O. in 1965 at the height of the CR movement, if there would have been a similar player-led refusal to play there by the NFLers.  

    NFL much more the conservative league back then, not that the AFL was exactly started up by a bunch of lefties.  But I'd like to think that there might have been some positive role modeling effect in the AFL, what with many of the young league's head coaches throwing aside the old staid ways as they opened up the game with diverse and revolutionary approaches (on offense of course).  Did some of the players absorb this bold on-field attitude with regard to getting bolder with some of their off-field attitudes?  

    Parent

    Commissioner won't be able to hide (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by mmc9431 on Mon May 03, 2010 at 09:17:39 AM EST
    MLB isn't going to really have a choice. Players are already coming forward to say they won't play in the game if this law remains on the books. Some are even questioning spring training in Arizona.

    The network that has the TV rights sure won't want to deal with the ratings that will be impacted. (Or the advertisement dollars that can be lost). I would expect them to be pressuring the commissioner to move the game.

    If the people of Arizona want to build a wall around themselves, then they should be willing to accept the consequences.

    Fyi, as noted in an earlier thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Cream City on Mon May 03, 2010 at 09:28:46 AM EST
    the commissioner's own team also has spring training in Arizona, so he owns business property there -- as well as being a homeowner in Arizona.

    So I hope that he is hit on this.  However, I have been watching to see if his own team's players and the Hispanic community in his team's city does something to point to this . . . but nada.  There was the usual huge May 1 march for immigration reform and much speechifying about Arizona, but the Hispanic leadership did not bring the problem home to the team's home city, call for a boycott closer to home, etc.  

    Still waiting for some leader, blogger, whatever, to go after the commish for all of his Arizona ties, all of the money he makes there -- not just for pro baseball, but for his own pockets.

    Parent

    For the record... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon May 03, 2010 at 09:39:10 AM EST
    Selig no longer owns the Brewers.

    Parent
    Correct -- but (none / 0) (#9)
    by Cream City on Mon May 03, 2010 at 09:42:45 AM EST
    he still has related interests.  It's clever and complicated.

    Parent
    It may bite all of them (none / 0) (#14)
    by mmc9431 on Mon May 03, 2010 at 10:55:29 AM EST
    Arizona has done a lot of wheeling and dealing to lure MLB from Florida. They had planned to add an attendance tax to all teams to fund a new facility for the Cubs and their new owner, until it blew up on them.

    This is what adds to the stupidity of this new law. They're spending millions of dollars trying to lure the business community and tourists to the state and then they create a complete PR disaster.

    Parent

    Is that a tax on all pro teams in (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:00:02 AM EST
    AZ or all pro baseball teams??

    Either way, why should any fan build the Cubs anything??

    Parent

    All Cactus League teams (none / 0) (#19)
    by mmc9431 on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:17:00 AM EST
    Totally agree with you. It was supposed to be all MLB teams training in Arizona but when the other owners got wind of it, they raised h#ll. (And rightly so).

    Parent
    Depends who you ask for 'balance'. Ty Cobb, No. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Ellie on Mon May 03, 2010 at 09:50:20 AM EST
    ... can you imagine the idea of asking whether Branch Rickey should have "injected" baseball into the political question of segregation when he signed Jackie Robinson? Certainly not today. So how come this is even a question?

    Curt Flood's heroic fight for agency eerily parallels many of the shared tensions in this battle ... and the discomfiture all participants might have if too harsh a light were shone in their direction.

    Flood was abandoned even by those who most capitalized (in every sense) on his awesomely courageous fight.

    A passionate and elegant writer, Flood's autobiography The Way It Is is one of the few sports bio's I kept after reading, as much for its style as substance.

    "They called me everything but a Child of God." [/Flood]

    What I see in today's converging flanks in the war for global human rights is the astonishing necessity to retain basic (human) agency.

    Flood v. Kuhn


    Cobb . . . (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by rea on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:44:40 PM EST
    . . . was a racist during his playing career, but in his old age, expressed admiration for Jackie Robinson and supported integration of mlb.

    Parent
    The MLK issue is not connected (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 10:33:46 AM EST
    to the law passed in AZ except in the minds of those who want it to be.

    King was a great man and AZ's position on honoring him was wrong. It solved no problems of the citizens of AZ.

    The AZ law solves a problem caused by the inactivity of the Federal government for the citizens of AZ and it is not racist nor anti-civil rights, or any other inaccurate claim made up by the media and various Democratic groups.

    Oh, ok then. (none / 0) (#17)
    by lilburro on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:16:04 AM EST
    That's definitive.

    Parent
    Yes it is (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:21:02 AM EST
    and I am shocked, but glad, to see you agree.

    Parent
    Not exactly (none / 0) (#26)
    by lilburro on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:35:57 AM EST
    when Gov. Rick Perry won't even support the law, there is something wrong with your law.

    Parent
    Perry is a politician who (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:59:46 AM EST
    doesn't have the same problems.... yet.... that AZ now has.

    He has most likely taken himself out of any future Presidential bids.

    Parent

    If that's really true (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:06:42 PM EST
    you guys should maybe save your money and not run anyone.

    One of the pet issues that drove Repub stock into the toilet in the last election has now become a litmus test for candidacy? Good luck with that one.

    Parent

    What defeated (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:12:26 PM EST
    the Repubs in 2006 was all the Independents sitting home because of Bush and others trying to sell something that people don't want.

    It wasn't an issue in 2008.

    Look, you don't deserve a response and you will avoid this, but do you agree that we should close the borders to new comers and issue green cards to those here?

    Parent

    I just gave you one (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:22:30 PM EST
    deserved response you cant see, now here's the other one: if you dont think further alienating Latinos is a thing to be concerned about, by all means carry on.

    Personally, I think the euphoria you experience from seeing a sea of white faces at a couple of Teaparties has lulled you into a very unwarranted sense of confidence.  

    Parent

    How much money (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:26:48 PM EST
    and resources do you think we can afford to allocate to "closing borders" that are more porous now than they've ever been before?

    Parent
    If anyone doesn't want to (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:51:32 PM EST
    obey the laws of the land I really don't care how offended they get.

    BTW - Do you think that those 78% in AZ that favor the law might have some Hispanics?

    Parent

    You didn't answer the question. (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:53:33 PM EST
    But then we know the answer.

    Parent
    America... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Thanin on Tue May 04, 2010 at 06:07:29 AM EST
    has been letting in illegals since 1492.  Why stop now?

    Parent
    Or, (none / 0) (#28)
    by lilburro on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:53:14 AM EST
    as Michael Gerson says:

    It must be awkward to have risen to the vigorous defense of legal language that even its authors, in the end, could not defend. But the law's advocates are making the best of things out on their sawed-off limb. The law is now more "explicit" about its true intention. It is a "clarification." But this isn't a clarification; it is retreat. The authors of the Arizona law initially wrote it as broadly as they thought they could get away with. But they were caught. Their retreat does not confirm their intentions were good. It confirms that the original law was deeply flawed -- a dramatic, disturbing overreach.


    Parent
    Not at all (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:02:37 PM EST
    I don't mind watching them trying to do the impossible... which is to try and satisfy the Open Border crowd and other special interest groups....

    We all know that anything less that withdrawing the bill would be unacceptable.

    Parent

    It turns those Mexican workers are... (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by mexboy on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:25:01 PM EST
    good workers after all.

    According to a CNN report, here, Sheridan Bailey, the owner of a steel plant in Phoenix fired 12 undocumented immigrants and now nobody wants the job, not even ex convicts. He is losing between 4-5 million dollars a year.

    Some lawmakers are now trying to get the undocumented immigrants back. Even Russell Pearce, yes, the Russell Pearce who introduced the law now wants them back. But they better not bring their stinking families, pay their taxes and get the hell out after they do their jobs.

    Nice, they will pay into the Social Security system to support the retirees without the possibility of benefiting from the taxes they paid themselves. Real American values at work!

    Parent

    Mexican workers are damn good workers (none / 0) (#103)
    by Rojas on Tue May 04, 2010 at 08:30:49 AM EST
    But you know what? Chinese workers at a bit less than 200 bucks a month are a much better bargain. Sheridan Bailey represents just the kind of business man we need less of.
    Do you think that 4 to 5 million in steel fabrication business just went away? I'll wager another fabrication contractor did those deals. Perhaps paying a better wage, offering a safer workplace and providing superior quality.

    Parent
    Solves a problem (none / 0) (#22)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:21:25 AM EST
    Illegal immigration and crime are actually down.

    So, it doesn't solve anything....

    Parent

    That's like your doctor (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:31:22 AM EST
    saying that your cancer is in remission...

    Or like saying the flood waters are lower because the rain is slacked....

    Or that a new car is now down from $30k to $28K...

    I hope you see my point,

    Parent

    Not really (none / 0) (#27)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:38:24 AM EST
    The trend is down, so something other than this discriminatory law has caused that decline.  So, the law is not needed....If a greater decline is desired, then try more of the same medicine such as more border enforcement.

    And, that completely ignores the odiousness of the statute....I just wanted to point out the statute is unnecessary--even from an anti-illegal immigration viewpoint.

    Of course, if there is some other objective....

    Parent

    Please be factual (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:05:50 PM EST
    the law is not discriminatory.

    Which, of course, you believe that it is.

    So we can't get together.

    BTW - Would you agree to close the borders and then issue green cards to those already here?

    Parent

    If "the law is not discriminatory" (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by christinep on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:21:05 PM EST
    as you contend, jimakaPPJ, then what would amount to "reasonable suspicion" for initially detaining suspected illegal immigrants--in your opinion? (BTW, this is more than a question of the potential for "discriminatory in application" vis-a-vis "discriminatory on its face.")

    Parent
    I'm not taking your (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:30:52 PM EST
    bait. We both know the answer and we both know that you will say, "See!"

    OK, I will.

    Suffice to say if a PO has contact with person or persons involved in an unlawful activity and that person or persons has no drivers license or other identification, speaks poor/broken English or flees the scene I would say the PO should try and determine his status.

    That is not discrimination. That is common sense.

    Now, go ahead and say, "See!"

    ;-)

    Parent

    That unlawful activity (none / 0) (#39)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:39:24 PM EST
    can be watering your grass too much, or not cutting your grass often enough....

    Yep, the broken English part....Accents too?....  Brown people with a target on their back.

    Parent

    LIke I said, "See!" (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:42:28 PM EST
    Do you want to parse and posture or do you want to have an intelligent discussion between two adults?

    Wait. I know the answer.

    Parent

    Not posturing at all (none / 0) (#47)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    Your wonderful statute will result in degrading treatment of lawful residents....

    Parent
    Are you aware that all lawful (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:13:48 PM EST
    residents.. those here on Visas... are required by  federal law to carry identification and give same to any officer of the law when requested?

    Now. Explain the degrading of, etc. etc. and etc.

    Parent

    I'll explain the degrading part for you. (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by mexboy on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:05:15 PM EST
    My family and I are planning to attend our Nieces wedding in Texas and we wanted to drive, six of us, all U.S. citizens, all Mexican. But we have to pass through Arizona.  I have an accent and my parents' English is limited.

    One of the things that makes someone suspicious is a van full of Mexicans and as you stated, limited ability to speak English. So presto, six U.S. citizens are now potential criminals who can be arrested for not producing passports or birth certificates, in their own country.

    The day you, and those who look like you, are singled out to carry your passport when you need to go to the market or other mundane activities, or the consequences of not doing so are possible jail time, you'll understand why this law is fascist.

    But that will never happen to you, so you don't need to worry. Screw the Latino citizens.

    This law is unconscionable and fascist. It weakens the principles this country was founded on.

    Parent

    So you are supposing that you will (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:11:52 PM EST
    be stopped for lawful driving.

    And then the driver will not have a driver's license. And the van will not be registered in CA to a matching address on the driver's license... and everyone will jump out of the van and run...

    Puleaseeeeeeeee

    I will ask again.

    Outside of Open Borders what would satisfy you?

    I won't repeat my solution has been posted time and agaom

    Parent

    Stop with the open borders!!! (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by mexboy on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:20:30 PM EST
    No one is advocating that. You are using it as a distraction and people here are too intelligent to fall for that. Have you not figured that out?

    A drivers licence is not proof of citizenship. The law states you must have an Arizona drivers license.

    What you are doing is, making absurd arguments to distract from the core of this fascist law. You will not address the issues and are working harder than a salmon driving upstream to confuse the issue and bait people into your belief this is about open borders.

    The fact that a citizen can be stopped and considered a potential criminal based on his/her ethnic background is racist. It is also unconstitutional and it erodes the protections guaranteed to all Americans under the constitution. It is a danger to all citizens.

    If you can't see that then we have nothing in common and this discourse is useless.

    Parent

    Stop with the funny claims. (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:43:16 PM EST
    We both know that AZ will honor licenses from other states. Is this your idea of a discussion?
    I mean speaking of straw men and all that.

    The fact is that the background is not in the law.
    You know it and I know it.

    Your call on the useless.

    Have a nice day.

    BTW - Do you have a solution? I have stated mine.

    Parent

    Not playing your game, thanks. (none / 0) (#82)
    by mexboy on Mon May 03, 2010 at 03:08:14 PM EST
    So your solution doesn't (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 04:32:21 PM EST
    involve closing the border to new birder crossers and giving green cards to the ones here.

    Parent
    Not playing your game, thanks. (none / 0) (#97)
    by mexboy on Mon May 03, 2010 at 08:22:52 PM EST
    Well, I wouldn't want to confuse the issue (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:25:26 PM EST
    with facts.

    And the fact that you have no solution beyond an extension what is failing now speaks for itself.

    Parent

    Still not falling for your bait, thanks. (none / 0) (#101)
    by mexboy on Tue May 04, 2010 at 03:15:50 AM EST
    Yes, they could be pulled over for (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by nycstray on Mon May 03, 2010 at 03:03:27 PM EST
    legal driving. PO can just say they were swerving etc. Not too hard to stretch the truth a bit if ya might catch you some "suspected illegal immigrants". After all, "suspected illegal immigrants" seems to be what they are working off of, and if a few "legals" get caught up, no harm no foul, right?

    Parent
    No, you don't get it (none / 0) (#73)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:14:19 PM EST
    Arpaio already detained dozens of those whom he had to release....He was all happy that the majority were here illegally....

    Parent
    And your point is what? (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:19:34 PM EST
    Tell me what your solution is.

    Parent
    I have told you twice (none / 0) (#79)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:44:55 PM EST
    on this thread....You have ignored my comments in that regard.  That tells me you are into your Open Borders strawman diversion....

    Parent
    A related question (none / 0) (#80)
    by christinep on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:56:49 PM EST
    If you are white and are stopped for lawful driving, is that ok? Specifically--and you know what the next part is jimakaPPJ--is it ok for you to be stopped for lawful driving? (And, please take that question as rhetorical or as a pain or as whatever. Only you really know the answer to what you would feel. I usually don't question one's integrity.)

    Parent
    It is not okay for anyone (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 04:41:14 PM EST
    to be stopped for "lawful" driving. My point to Mexboy was that he is assuming that.

    The bottom line on all of this is that you don't like this law but you don't want to close the borders and give green cards to those who are here and then figure out who and how many immigrants we need.

    I call that being for Open Borders. Sorry if that offends you but that is just facts.

    Parent

    Gov. Bill Richardson (none / 0) (#57)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:32:13 PM EST
    said that he could be caught up in a dragnet and be in violation--he doesn't have an Arizona driver's license....

    And, no one carries their Visa on them when working....

    And, what about U.S. citizens who don't speak English that well, or with an accent?

    If you're brown, show ID--or else.  If white, no problemo...That is how this works....

    Parent

    Then you should start (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:46:01 PM EST
    complaining to the Obama administration about the Federal law being stricter than the AZ law.

    And I do hope that legal residents abide by the law of the country they have chosen to be in.

    And your continual playing of the race card displays your lack of argument against the law.

    Parent

    The Glenn Beck (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:58:37 PM EST
    style jujitsu--saying the other side has played the race card as a get-of-jail-free card and to cover a lot of sins....Great dodge....that only they believe.

    No, the way the statute will be, and has been (by Arpaio), enforced is to target Latinos....Good grief, this is not that difficult....

    In Civil Rights lingo--it fails the as-applied standard....has other problems too....

    The proponent of this statute specifically wrote it so that--even with the modification--the cops can "stop" people who have cars on their blocks in their front yard, and too many people living in one house....That is what the proponent argues....and that is how he wants the law applied.  If you don't see a problem with that, then you are beyond understanding this issue.

    Parent

    Cars on blockls? (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:05:46 PM EST
    I guess you have never driven through Appalachia. Or south or north Memphis.

    As for Beck, I will have to watch him sometime just to see if your claim is true.

    Again. What is your solution?

    Mine remains... Close the borders. Issue green cards to those here who can pass a simple background check for past criminal activity. Then figure out how many and who we want as immigrants.

    I think your solution is Open Borders.

    Parent

    Open Borders (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Mon May 03, 2010 at 04:28:45 PM EST
    (capital O, capital B) or Closed Borders.

    Support the Troops or dont Support the Troops.

    A rw base-rallying plan that cant be fit on a bumpersticker is no plan at all.

    And, we'll leave the actual, real-world, details to the elitist eggheads.

    Parent

    Oh please. (none / 0) (#70)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:11:26 PM EST
    No one is going to ask for ID in Appalachia.....

    The drafter of the Arizona statute had a Latino image in mind....that has nothing to do with immigration status....

    I am not for Open Borders....That is a strawman that conservatives have....it also allows you to discount the valid arguments against this statute....

    And, as to my solution--I would go with probably any of the versions of comprehensive reform that involves citizenship for those who have been here for a long time...I already told you that...

    Parent

    Won't ask for ID's (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 02:38:50 PM EST
    in Appalachia? I can see that your experience is limited. Very limited when it comes to driving through Meth Land.

    And if you want to give citizenship to those who have been here for a "long" (whatever long is) time without closing the borders that is just Open Borders.

    I stated several days ago in a comment to Kdog that I had some problems with the law, but without closing the border I will take this law.

    Parent

    You certainly have twisted (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 07:28:07 PM EST
    the conversation.....

    Now, you are trying to score points about Appalachia.  

    Look, no one would think that a car on blocks in Appalachia is indicia of being their immigration status....That is the entire point....And whatever the law enforcement reason for asking for ID in Appalachia--I don't think having a car on blocks is one of them.....but is one of the stated reasons for hounding people in Arizona about their status....

    And, you take a standard conservative tack of trying to define me into a position that you can caricature and misrepresent.  Jondee's comment about supporting the troops is an excellent one.
    So, if I do not support your formulation of what border security should be, or what the overall immigration package should be, you say I am for "Open Borders"--trying to imply all sorts of things I don't stand for....

    I have seen this tactic before--using the same term to mean different things, switching definitions--here, your version of Open Borders with the standard assumed definition.  Or, as another example, advocating the expiration of the Bush tax cuts is Socialism--completely mangling the standard definition of the term. This is the logical fallacy of equivocation:

    The Fallacy of Equivocation occurs when an equivocal word or phrase makes an unsound argument appear sound. Consider the following example:

    All banks are beside rivers.
    Therefore, the financial institution where I deposit my money is beside a river.

    In this argument, there are two unrelated meanings of the word "bank":

    1.A riverside: In this sense, the premiss is true but the argument is invalid, so it's unsound.

    2.A type of financial institution: On this meaning, the argument is valid, but the premiss is false, thus the argument is again unsound.
    In either case, the argument is unsound. Therefore, no argument which commits the fallacy of Equivocation is sound.


       

    Parent
    Continuing... (none / 0) (#50)
    by christinep on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:15:43 PM EST
    Okay, jimakaPPJ, I read your response concerning what would amount to "reasonable suspicion." Allow me to push a bit further. You said that if a police officer has "contact with person...involved in an unlawful activity..." and that person had no ID & reacted in a certain way, then the condition precedent would be fulfilled. Okay, that is clear. But, what isn't clear from your response is what would constitute the "unlawful activity" to bring these other considerations into play. Certainly, barreling down the highway at excessive speeds, etc. might lead to.... Certainly, being involved in a fistfight causing a public disturbance....Certainly, running out of a bank with a sack of money.... No, I haven't said "see." I do think, tho, that it would be useful for any dialogue to ascertain the parameters of what is the "unlawful activity" here--otherwise, we tend to get in an unending doo-loop. And, since I don't think coy on my part helps, the basic question becomes: Do you find that the operative "unlawful activity" must be--at first--separate from how the person looks? And, if so, how do you separate it?

    Parent
    Shall we dance? (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:29:32 PM EST
    Please. If we want to use the old "broken taillight" argument, why the ifs and buts?

    Better yet, tell me why you think that the color of a person's skin has anything to do with his character and/or residency status.

    The actions will speak for themselves. There is no need to separate them from the person.

    Basically you accuse me of being a racist for supporting the law.

    I guess I am now supposed to start arguing that I am not and you will have then reframed the conversation.

    So I repeat. Az has a problem. This law is meant to fix it.

    I have seen no better solution offered by anyone here.

    Open Borders, eh?

    Parent

    The law is targeted at Latinos (none / 0) (#62)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:39:06 PM EST
    Too many Latinos crossing over....

    It is not as if we have a crisis of Chinese immigrants.  Too many Poles in Arizona?

    The literacy tests of the old South were racially neutral too......You haven't responded to that argument....

    The context matters.  You can't seal the language in a vacuum and assert that, if it doesn't mention ethnicity or race, it is just fine.  The way the law will be applied matters....

    Parent

    The literacy tests of the Jim (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:36:22 PM EST
    Crow South were not discriminatory on their face, either.....They did not reference anyone's race.  Still racist....

    It is a well-worn, racist dodge to couch discriminatory laws in race-nuetral terms.

    Moreover, "reasonable suspicion" is horribly vague.

    This is not even a close call.....

    The solution would involve citizenship....

    Parent

    Well it is plain to me that (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:47:32 PM EST
    anything that can be used to trigger the investigation of a suspected illegal immigrant is not acceptable to you.

    Open borders, eh?

    Parent

    I know you have been trying (none / 0) (#45)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 12:56:31 PM EST
    to snag that admission.  But no sale....

    You don't get to stop people to question their citizenship based on gut instinct....

    How much should we open or close our borders....I don't really know....We do need the labor....and the reality is that the law of supply and demand that conservatives otherwise worship will have people coming here as long as the wage disparity is what it is....

    Parent

    "suspected illegal immigrant" (none / 0) (#48)
    by nycstray on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:08:20 PM EST
    could you please describe what that means/is?

    Parent
    That is an (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:15:52 PM EST
    immigrant who is suspected of being here illegally.

    Look, PC language gets awkward at times.

    Parent

    How do you know they are an (none / 0) (#52)
    by nycstray on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:21:34 PM EST
    immigrant and not American born? And how do you suspect them of being here "illegally" and not assume they are 'legal'? Are we to start assuming guilt first these days?

    Parent
    Read the law and see the (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 04:48:27 PM EST
    guidelines.

    Parent
    One big problem (none / 0) (#59)
    by Raskolnikov on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:36:16 PM EST
    With the law is that it is going to overtax local law enforcement.  This is a subversion of federal authority, and I agree entirely that we need to have some sort of immigration reform; green cards for those here, more border enforcement and a re-look at our immigration policy is a reasonable position to take.  Fact is that most towns, cities, counties and states have to balance their budgets, whereas the federal government, although it should, does not.  One huge advantage, and why I agree with you on this front Jim, of getting everyone in the system is that immigrants with green cards will no longer fear deportation when reporting domestic abuse, theft and all manner of violent crime.  I just don't think its the states to enforce, and inevitably laws like these can be problematic for legal immigrants with English skills sufficient to pass the TOEFL but perhaps not conversationally adept to pass an officers scrutiny.  Leave this to ICE.

    Parent
    The problem is that the Feds have not been (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 04:47:43 PM EST
    doing their jobs so the state has stepped.

    I don't particularly like the law either but it is better than what we have now.

    All this yelling racism, etc., fixes nothing and only locks that 78% of AX citizens who support the bill.

    Close the borders. Do the green card for those here and then figure out who and how many new immigrants we need.

    Parent

    It isn't based on economics (none / 0) (#98)
    by mmc9431 on Mon May 03, 2010 at 08:27:33 PM EST
    If this was done strictly for economic principles, there's a very good chance that the state will lose considerably more money than it gains.

    It could have a major impact on tourism. It will definitely make corporations think twice before they relocate there. Then you throw in a potential MLB boycott, what have you gained? You took one step forward and at least three major steps back.

    Parent

    I haven't mentioned economics (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:23:17 PM EST
    But sometimes you have to do things just because they are right.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#3)
    by szielinski on Mon May 03, 2010 at 08:56:18 AM EST
    So how come [MLB addressing Arizona's racial profiling law] is even a question

    It's a question because 1) the reactionary right has defined what the country considers to be politically relevant since 1980 and 2) the reactionary right in the USA has always been a source of racism and nativism.

    If only the DLC hadn't neutralized the Rainbow Coalition....

    The Spring training complexes (none / 0) (#20)
    by MKS on Mon May 03, 2010 at 11:17:44 AM EST
    in Phoenix are extensive....The actual fields and stadiums are surrounded by some of the nicest restaurants and shopping centers....

    A baseball boycott would hit them really hard....

    The fact of the matter . . . (none / 0) (#61)
    by rea on Mon May 03, 2010 at 01:37:47 PM EST
    . . . is that the country's high immigrant border towns are the safest places in the country in terms of violent crime:

    http://reason.com/archives/2009/07/06/the-el-paso-miracle

    Doesn't seem accurate as to (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Mon May 03, 2010 at 04:34:03 PM EST
    some of the towns on the U.S. side of the border w/Mexico.  Largely due to the drug cartels.  See Los Angeles Times.

    Parent