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Wednesday Early Evening Open Thread

Guess what? People disagree. Let's do it civilly. How about a non-bickering Open Thread?

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    BTD calling for civility?! (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:41:20 PM EST
    I really must be out to lunch!

    What are people fighting about anyway?

    Shocking (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Maryb2004 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:51:36 PM EST
    Let's demand an answer:  Who are you and what did you do with the real BTD?

    Parent
    WKBTD? (none / 0) (#7)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:58:32 PM EST
    Let's talk about your absence. (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:59:02 PM EST
    I miss your comments.

    Parent
    I really don't know (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:44:11 PM EST
    And do not want to know.

    Parent
    I figure it doesn't matter much. . . (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:49:02 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:00:47 PM EST
    My view on these things is not the site's ethos.

    And like everyone here, except for Jeralyn of course, I am a guest.

    I'm charged with a certain responsibility of trying to make sure Jeralyn's vision of the blog is adhered to.

    I've been around not much for the last months. I've had 2 preliminary injunction hearings that have made it difficult for me to be involved much here.

    But now I have a little time and besides writing about sports, I thought I might try and help J. steer the blog back to her vision of a civil place.


    Parent

    FWIW, I've been absent too (none / 0) (#10)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:02:36 PM EST
    I pretty much checked out in April for exams. I can't follow the flame wars with much intensity!

    Parent
    I was thinking: front lobotomy! (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:46:29 PM EST
    Ouch! (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:49:15 PM EST
    Brain does not (none / 0) (#12)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:27:50 PM EST
    feel pain

    Parent
    Anyone have a recommendation (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:05:56 PM EST
    for a primer on the World Cup?  Can't find anything on FIFA site re how a country's team is selected.  Or definition of striker, etc.  Yes, I do know what the goalie's function is.  Thanks.

    Striker (none / 0) (#21)
    by CST on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 10:11:02 PM EST
    The soccer positions vary depending on the formation, and the formations are usually described with numbers like 4-4-2, or 4-5-1 or 4-3-3.  There are three basic regions in the field, defense, midfield, and offense.  The defense is the first number, than midfield, than offense.  But those positions are often broken down further.

    A basic 4-4-2 formation (what the us will be playing) works like this (from back to front):

    Goalie

    4 defenders:

    Sweeper - Last defender before the goalie, plays in the middle, usually no one to mark, organizes the rest of the defense.

    Stopper - plays in front of the sweeper, sometimes pushes the ball up starting a counter-attack.

    2 outside defenders (also called fullbacks) cover the left and right side of the fields (if the other team is playing 4-4-2, these are usually the guys who are tasked with marking the 2).

    4 midfielders:

    2 in the middle, usually one plays more forward and one plays more backward - but they can switch.  Often the "playmakers" tasked with organizing the offense.

    2 on the outside who run up and down the flank of the field.  These are usually the 2 responsible for spreading out the field and making "runs" or breaking into open space downfield.

    2 forwards:

    also called strikers.  These guys are usually tasked with scoring goals.  They are the ones who try to get open down the field, in the middle, in front of the goal.

    Hope that helps a little bit, obviously these are pretty broad terms and people move around a lot on the field - and it depends on the skill of various players and style of the team as to which formation you go with.

    Parent

    also teams are selected (none / 0) (#22)
    by CST on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 10:32:16 PM EST
    by the coach ultimately.  There are many more players who play for the team during world cup qualifying and during other "cups" and various friendly games throughout the years in between the world cups.  The U.S. national team went from 30 players to 23 before the start of the world cup.  The teams are usually started at a younger level (there is an under - 17 national team as well), but ultimately it's the coach who has the final say on whether or not players make it to the world cup team.

    Parent
    Thanks. Very informative. My knowledge (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 10:59:40 PM EST
    of soccer is based on my younger daughter's playing until her team faced a traveling team of Amazon women!  Maybe 4th grade.  

    Parent
    and finally (none / 0) (#24)
    by CST on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 11:08:38 PM EST
    this won't teach you any rules - but it will introduce you to all the teams in a funny/approachable/american way.

    Link

    and finally, if you just want to learn the basics of soccer (rules, positions, etc...) this is actually a pretty decent starting point.

    On a final note, yes, I might be a bit obsessed, and yes, this could be a slight problem.  Feel free to ignore my incessant soccer postings.

    Parent

    Oh, don't stop. I'm learning. (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 11:53:01 PM EST
    First link is very funny. Poor Chargers. (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 12:09:14 AM EST
    ha! yes (none / 0) (#33)
    by CST on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 08:47:02 AM EST
    I must admit, after my ranting about Spain the other day and putting them on the very bottom of my list of teams to root for - I did not love seeing them likened to the 2005 Red Sox...

    I wonder what kdog will think of the England = Jets comparison.

    Parent

    I don't like it one bit... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:27:53 AM EST
    though the blog-writer has a point...we are always waiting for the wheels to come off whenever we show promise.

    Lets hope it's S.O.E on Saturday....Same Old England!

    Parent

    kdog, did you see the AP sidebar? Feds, (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:34:49 AM EST
    cooperation with state and local law enforcement, arresting 4000 re Mexico/U.S. drug trade?  Holder will be doing a press conference.  Even I say, WTF!

    Parent
    Just read the wire... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:46:37 AM EST
    what a terrible waste of 69 tons of grass.

    Holder is such a clown...Project Deliverance accomplished d*ck and he knows it...unless he's talking about the cash Uncle Sam done stole, or the subsidy to the prison industrial complex.

    Parent

    Wonder whose job it is to name (none / 0) (#42)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:53:05 AM EST
    such a project?  

    Parent
    154 mill... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:58:01 AM EST
    that doesn't belong to them got "delivered", not to mention all the product...maybe thats what deliverance they're on about...it sure ain't justice.

    See the 14 year old the Border Control gunned down?  It's a blood boiler...and right on the heels of the stun-gun killing of a man by border agents that San Diego has ruled a homicide.  I won't hold my breath for charges or convictions...license to kill, different rules different fools.

    Parent

    And how about the Taliban hanging (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:01:29 AM EST
    a 7 yr. old boy they sd. was a spy?

    Parent
    Saw that... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:20:36 AM EST
    from the "it could always be worse 'round here category"...I don't think we'd go that far unless the alleged spy was 14 or so.

    Also from the blood-boiler beat...another innocent man locked up by NY, served 15 years and missed his 3 kids whole childhood.  Cut the check NY, and make it a whopper!  Two B's in Jabbar Collins.

    Parent

    Okay you Iron Chefs (none / 0) (#13)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:33:25 PM EST
    Anyone ever had a burner coil on a stove explode? Just had it happen and pierce a bb size hole right through a 3 quart All-Clad sauce pan. I'm going to miss that pot. Damn thing costs $117.55 to replace at Amazon.

    I didn't know anything could (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 09:49:13 PM EST
    pierce an AC! Prob a good thing it was an AC. I'd check with AC, many of these good pots have LW.

    I'm guessing there was a defect in the coil. Perhaps have the stove folks buy you a new pot AND replace the stove.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#14)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:34:39 PM EST
    Um, no, I never have. I'd be worried about continuing to use that stove, personally. Call up the manufacturer and ask for "assistance"?

    Parent
    Does (none / 0) (#15)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:44:06 PM EST
    buying a new stove out of necessity qualify as retail therapy thus negating the sting of the lost pot?

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:44:41 PM EST
    Maybe it's the Pots Fault (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:56:34 PM EST
    And you can bring it back under warrantee?

    Parent
    The pot (none / 0) (#19)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 09:16:17 PM EST
    is about 10 years old and there is a small piece of the burner missing just about the size of the now hole in the bottom of the once lovely $117.55 pot. I'm afraid I'm all-clad out of luck.

    Parent
    One thing I've learned... (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:29:35 AM EST
    in the manufacturers rep racket...if you call either or both manufacturers and raise enough of a stink you'll probably get something outta them...maybe a new frying pan and a service call of the stove...but you can't be nice about it unfortunately, you gotta play the arsehole.

    Wish it didn't have to be that way, but squeaky wheels get the grease...way of the world.

    Parent

    pot, meet kettle (none / 0) (#25)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 11:09:48 PM EST
    I replied to a comment Squeaky made (none / 0) (#17)
    by ZtoA on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:46:43 PM EST
    on the earlier thread, but it was late and I thought I'd re-post the comment here since it is about the essence of legal defense from a personal pov.

    --------

    defense does not contradict guilt in all cases.

    Ever wonder how the siblings of the Columbine murderer kids felt? Or all the family members? Well, I was a family member of a situation with certain similarities when I was a kid -  a long time ago. In my case, the murderer was known. The victims were too. There were probably many other victims not known. Family members were on both "sides" at the same time and a compassionate defense humanizes the person who commits an act that society has determined is not acceptable. It does not let the criminal off the hook. We were happy our criminal went to jail for the rest of his life, and we were happy he got a trial. In many ways that trial also humanized the victims (at least the known ones). The world is so much more complex - and rich - than :

        TL is not reflective of prison nation mentality. She said that if you want to be rooting against someone accused of a crime you should take it to another pro victim, tough on crime site.

    OK (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 11:46:42 PM EST
    I agree that the world is rich and complex, but I was responding to a particular comment by waldenpond who seemed perplexed that s/he was reminded that this was a defense oriented site.

    Sorry for your loss, and I am glad that you came to terms with what sounds like a very difficult situation. At such an early age I am sure that the event was pivotal, and formative.

    Parent

    let's not return there please (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 02:27:44 AM EST
    This site is not a neutral site. It exists to support and promote the rights of those accused of crime, those of the innocent and the guilty. Whether someone "did it" or not has no bearing on whether they should receive the full panapoly of rights provided by our system, or from a human rights perspective.

    I'm sorry for your personal loss. But the essence of criminal defense is we make no judgments about guilt or innocence, it matters not when it comes to the process by which guilt, innocence or a sentence is determined. We protect the rights of the accused, no matter how heinous the crime, because by protecting their rights, we ensure those rights will be there for the rest of us should we need them.

    This topic as you point out was discussed in the other thread. Let's leave it there. If this site's mission offends you, or you disagree that everyone deserves the protections the law provides, and can only view these issues through the lens of "did it" or "didn't do it" then as you quote, this is not the site for you.

    It's really not open for discussion as promoting awareness of these principles is the reason this site was created and the reason it still exists.

    Parent

    I said a couple of times yesterday (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 07:46:02 AM EST
    that this was a "political" site.  I know the larger mission is promoting the rights of the accused but that can be very political itself.  I guess what I meant was that most of the cat fights break out over the political stuff.  most anyway.
    and who would expect agreement all around.  I dont understand why disagreements need to be turned into some "larger problem with human nature exemplified by the commenters here".  people disagree.  if they didnt we would not need two parties.
    I have the greatest respect for the larger mission and I a truly sorry if my zeal to defend it from those who would trash and criticize it sometimes leads me to be, um,  blunt or cynical regarding the motives of said people.
    I will try to do better.
    havent had time to be here much anyway.


    Parent
    You misunderstand my comment (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 02:26:20 PM EST
    If you read my comment I am saying exactly this:

    We protect the rights of the accused, no matter how heinous the crime, because by protecting their rights, we ensure those rights will be there for the rest of us should we need them.

    I am saying that from a personal point of view, a system of legal defense was invaluable. It was not there to prove innocence (which was not possible) but it did humanize the criminal and gave him a fair outcome. No lynch mobs. No retribution on family.

    So I agree completely with the legal defense advocacy of this site.

    Parent

    thanks, glad to hear that. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 02:28:22 PM EST
    how far are we from (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 08:04:20 AM EST
    "There is a God, (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:10:51 AM EST
    so why would I want vengeance when no one will return him to me?", the boy's father said.

    Beautifully brave and heartbreaking, all at the same time, at least to me.

    They should tattoo that somewhere on the persons of all our righteous fellow citizens, who are always ready to dole out punishment at the drop of a hat, so they can read it as often as possible.

    Parent

    the first thing you do (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 08:40:25 AM EST
    is underestimate the problem.
    you dont want people to panic.

    So (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 09:20:48 AM EST
    Looks like Nebraska is headed to the Big 10 (which has 11 teams already) - will this make it the "New Big 12", since the old Big 12 will cease to exist?

    Rumors are flying that Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and Colorado could go to the PAC-10 and create the first super-conference. Other rumors have Texas going to the PAC-10 and arch rival Texas A&M going to the  SEC.  Of course, Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, and Missouri are left going to the prom without a date.

    What does this portend for college football?  And who will become my beloved Aggies' next arch rival - especially if they don't play in the same conference as the always hated Texas?

    The only good thing that could come of this (none / 0) (#58)
    by Farmboy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 12:40:26 PM EST
    would be an end to the BCS. It's one thing when you have Division IA or II schools shut out of the system (just to be clear: I think that's wrong headed, but it's part of the current rules that everyone is playing by). Locking out a large number of Division I schools violates the spirit of the arrangement. The NCAA really needs to step in, and soon, or the programs at those schools will be severely harmed.

    Parent
    Cameron to go after Obama over BP (none / 0) (#36)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:27:42 AM EST
    Cameron is to talk to Obama about his attitude towards BP this weekend.  I predict the President will switch and support the larger dividend distribution by BP and that he will no longer support removing the liability cap. Goldman Sachs is playing games behind the scene and our faux 'market' is trying to help BP out here.

    But (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:48:15 AM EST
    Cameron is supposedly sympathetic with Obama

    Parent
    BP dividends big money (none / 0) (#46)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:58:47 AM EST
    The President will do what he can to protect the value of BP and Cameron will be even more sympathetic.  I look forward to the photo op smiles. :)

    Those billions in dividends are big money for the powerful in UK economy and don't forget the taxes to be collected.  Come on now, don't get in the way of the rich getting more money.....

    Parent

    Hey (none / 0) (#50)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:12:22 AM EST
    I'm all for rich people keeping their money - I hope to be one someday!  :)

    Parent
    Glen Beck and dog vomit (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:51:02 AM EST
    Or what you are.. (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:56:58 AM EST
    in effect.

    Parent
    this would (none / 0) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:01:34 AM EST
    be an insult to dog vomit everywhere and the dogs who return to it.

    pretty intense trailer though.
    almost made me what to read it for at least a nanosecond.


    Parent

    You have a point.. (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:18:42 AM EST
    What's even more grotesque and laughable is that you cant even blame Beck for coming up with this kind of swill all on his own and therefore allowing him the "lone crackpot" defense: he's got his own little mini-corporation putting stuff together..With his prestigious brand name at the top.

    He and Palin need to get together and take that show on the road. Where's the impresario who can make that happen?

    Parent

    and this is odd (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 10:53:18 AM EST
    not sure what it means exactly.

    CA Parties Adapt To New Electoral Order

    CA voters want their options back, and last night they passed a proposition that would once again give them the ability to pick and choose their candidates across party lines during partisan primaries.

    Despite opposition from party leaders, voters approved Proposition 14 by a 54%-46% margin. The measure would allow voters to pick candidates from any political party during a primary; only the top 2 candidates would advance to a general election, regardless of party.



    It's a pretty big deal (none / 0) (#49)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:11:44 AM EST
    It means, theoretically, California could have a race for governor where there are 2 Republican candidates, or a race for Senate with only 2 Democratic candidates (I believe it extends to federal office).

    Parent
    is there, like, a committee (none / 0) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:16:25 AM EST
    or something in CA whos purpose it is to come up with ideas to f*ck up california democracy?

    Parent
    They have the sun and beach (none / 0) (#55)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:23:24 AM EST
    They don't really have much else going on, right?

    Parent
    Conservative religious leaders (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:14:01 AM EST
    embrace path to citizenship

    Washington (CNN) -- A group of conservative evangelical leaders broke with their political brethren Wednesday, coming to Washington to push the White House and congressional leaders to pass comprehensive immigration reform that includes a path for undocumented immigrants to attain legal status.

    Political conservatives have long balked at an immigration policy that includes what they term "amnesty" for illegal immigrants, but the evangelicals see the issue differently.

    "A significant part of our churches and denominations are part of the immigrant community so we have a very close connection and a very great interest," Leith Anderson, president of the influential lobbying group National Evangelical Association, said Wednesday, " ... but our interest is really rooted in what the bible teaches how we treat people and how we treat particularly people who are aliens or strangers in the land."

    Anderson's group last year authored a resolution in favor of reform using biblical immigrants Abraham, Joseph, Naomi, Mary and Jesus. Their examples, the group said, "reveal God's hand in the movement of people and are illustrations of faith and God in difficult circumstances."

    "The issue is one that affects us as a congregation," said Rich Nathan, senior pastor at the Vineyard Church in Columbus, Ohio, noting that his church of 8,500 members includes congregants born in 92 countries. "It's not just an abstraction."

    "I'm aware of no other public policy issue that would join together mainline (denominations), Roman Catholic, evangelicals, right and left across the spectrum," Nathan said. "Abortion divides us, gay rights divide us, war and peace divides us, but comprehensive immigration reform unites us."

    Mat Staver, director of the Liberty Center for Law and Policy at Liberty University in Falls Church, Virginia, said all the groups represented shared two common goals: border security and a just and compassionate immigration policy.



    very cool body painting (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 11:26:55 AM EST