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Thursday Afternoon Open Thread

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    Prop. 8 Stay Lifted (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:52:29 PM EST
    woo hoo


    Congratulations to everyone (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:55:23 PM EST
    who will benefit and everyone who worked so hard for this.  I needed a liberal victory.  I can only take so much loss.

    Parent
    joe my god (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:53:22 PM EST
    from stinque (none / 0) (#11)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:54:36 PM EST
    The 64 million dollar question, which Dodger raised to me this a.m., is whether the 9th Circuit will grant an emergency stay, and now, if this week lag time gives them enough time to grant it. I don't think they'll grant an emergency stay, in which case Justice Kennedy hears it.


    Parent
    more (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:00:05 PM EST
    Oooh, interesting, Walker's language on pages 4 and 5 about the proponents' lack of Article III standing to request a stay OR to appeal may give the 9th Circuit a handy out, and would also limit Walker's decision to CA versus theoretically having a decision that impacts the entire 9th Circuit.


    Parent
    Denied but kept in place (none / 0) (#15)
    by waldenpond on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:00:50 PM EST
    FDL reporting denied but kept in force until 08/18 so that Prop h8ers can take it to the 9th for a stay.  Can't marry until the 19th.

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:03:09 PM EST
    Stinque Legal Eagle DodgerBlue tells me that no doubt the H8ers will be running over to the 9th Circuit [SFL editor's note: located about five blocks away, through the (ha!) prettiest part of the Tenderloin and mid-Market area] to get an emergency stay


    Parent
    Hey, it takes a week to plan (none / 0) (#21)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:19:49 PM EST
    a blowout wedding reception, anyway!  (Hahaha, as if -- it takes months for a true blowout blast.)

    This is such good news for those who have been waiting years.  I also wish they could rush to city hall tomorrow, but there will be celebrating right away, anyway.  And I celebrate with them, as this victory in a state the size of California is crucial for the cause in the rest of the country.

    I know how much hiring my state campus system, for example, does from California.  That finally meant a victory for domestic partner benefits -- and for all state employees, and that leads the way for the private sector as well.  So in my state that led the way in voting down same-sex marriage, I know so many wonderful couples -- such as friends whose commitment now is more than a quarter of a century -- who now may hold hope of formalizing that commitment in future.

    Parent

    any legal eagle thoughts on this (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:30:36 PM EST
    on prop 8?

    There's a fascinating backstory here: The ruling sez that the proponents, as citizens, have no standing to appeal a case brought against officials of the State of California.

    Dodger can correct my civvie understanding of these things, but Citizen Intervention is an express right in certain federal laws -- a right frequently challenged by conservatives.



    Parent
    Yes, input would be good (none / 0) (#74)
    by waldenpond on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:45:43 PM EST
    I have read and heard on teebee that the Gov and AG refused because they felt it was unconstitutional but the h8ers were allowed to go forward on their own.  My understanding is it now reverts to the State and they won't ask for a stay.  Further, the Prop h8ers will have to show actual harm to themselves in order to get a stay in the 9th.    

    Also read that the AFA? wants the h8ers to stop at this step.  That the 'damage is limited to CA' at this point...they don't want to take their chances with Kennedy.

    Parent

    Well, that should be (none / 0) (#83)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 12:06:37 AM EST
    fun to watch.  I love it when the righties get into fights over stuff like this.

    Parent
    I thought I heard a bit dif . . . (none / 0) (#85)
    by nycstray on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 12:46:33 AM EST
    Further, the Prop h8ers will have to show actual harm to themselves in order to get a stay in the 9th.

    that they could also try and show harm to those getting married before this is finished?

    Would they really leave this as 'damage is limited to CA'? It seems to me that it would set the pace to succeed elsewhere. But of course, I went to art school, not law school . . . . :)

    I just want to see lots o' weddings starting next Wed night.

    Parent

    awsum (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:59:07 PM EST
    english remakes get there comeuppance.
    the guy who did Hero and House of Flying Daggers remakes the Cohens first and IMO best film Blood Simple:

    A Woman A Gun and Noodle Shop

     

    FARC explodes a carbomb (none / 0) (#1)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:44:14 PM EST
    in downtown Bogota next to Caracol Radio. Caracol has been critical of Chavez of Venezuela's visit, and one of the Venezuelan ministers made a point of talking, at length, about it last night...

    Coincidence? yeh, suuuuuure.

    Airport's gonna be seriously no fun for my trip back.

    Yikes... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:47:21 PM EST
    thank goodness no one was killed.

    Parent
    Went off pretty early, (none / 0) (#6)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:50:41 PM EST
    FARC has been pretty calm lately, but I suspect someone is stirring the sh*t... and that someone isn't a Colombian.

    about 100 pounds of explosives. A bus passed by about 10 seconds before the blast. Nobody killed, but some injuries.

    Parent

    A word to the wise ole buddy (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:42:36 PM EST
    Just in case you feel a little claustrophobic, and decide to pull the emergency egress chute, ala that steward in the news, make sure the plane is on the ground first.

    Like they, "take care of the little things..............."


    Parent

    Note to self... ;) (none / 0) (#31)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:44:58 PM EST
    Ah, that steward (none / 0) (#33)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:46:04 PM EST
    May have been drinking before and during the flight....

    More to the story...

    Police tell ABC News that evidence suggests Slater began drinking before the Pittsburgh to New York flight. Crew members noticed Slater's eyes appeared bloodshot at the outset of the flight, and other witnesses told police Slater was drinking while aboard the plane.

    The rudeness to passengers, according to accounts, started at boarding.

    SNIP

    In fact, police say, the more questions they asked, the less Slater's story added up.

    No passenger or flight crew witness interviewed by police had any recollection of an argument between Slater and the female passenger who allegedly cursed and berated him before causing an overhead bin door to strike the flight attendant, sources say.

    Witnesses have told police that the injuries to Slater's forehead had been incurred prior to any incident with a female passenger who couldn't fit her outsized carryon into the overhead bin.

    In fact witnesses recalled Slater continuing to serve food and beverages while still apparently bleeding.

    Ew.

    Parent

    Yes, ew (none / 0) (#82)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 12:04:24 AM EST
    This guy seems to me to be a bad actor.  He's been preening in front of the cameras since this happened in an extremely (to me) unpleasant way.  I'm not at all surprised to read what you posted here.

    Parent
    Three Words... (none / 0) (#86)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 08:21:44 AM EST
    Hit The Chute!

    He coulda been mainlining heroin in the jumpseat for all I care, he's still my hero...by hitting the chute he gave the bird to the entire airline industry and the utter practical joke flying has become, and for that I am eternally grateful...even if it was all staged and he's now falling in love with the camera.

    Parent

    "snip" (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 09:08:59 AM EST
    What a shock. Employees start getting uppity and the wheels of spin and corporate damage control go into high gear..Before any of the other peons start getting bad ideas in their heads..

    Parent
    The thought crossed my mind... (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 09:23:28 AM EST
    a smear job could be going down...can't have a unpredictable uppity employee phenomenon catch on, labor unrest is terrible for the markets.  Can't have a modern day folk hero messin' with "progress", a la John Henry.

    The "witnesses" were trotted out fast to dispute the claims of racism that the murderer up at that beer distributor in CT gave as the reasons for his bloody rampage too...ya just never know how much the corporate ownership of media has influenced the reporting...it's a lil' tin-foily, but like I said, ya never know.

    Parent

    I don't know (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 09:45:14 AM EST
    whats tin-foily about discussing the fact that    people representing entrenched, powerful, interests often meet in private to discuss how best to protect those interests and that the solutions they come up with dont always live up to Marquis of Queensbury rules.

       

    Parent

    I guess we will have to wait... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 10:03:33 AM EST
    for my man who runs wikileaks to get his hands on some emails...I guess I hold out hope in humanity that somebody would have blown a whistle.

    Parent
    Stay safe (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:49:23 PM EST
    in SA when I was there, though not in Columbia to my knowledge. I met some fellow travelers while in Columbia who had been in Peru at ground zero in one of the SP bombings. Pretty scary stuff.

    Parent
    Is a preview... (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:49:14 PM EST
    of the new immigration hardball?  I hope not, holding little girls for ransom ain't cool at all.  Link

    Not cool (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:52:21 PM EST
    Very troubling.  Watched a movie the other day....only a movie, but was about immigration and deportation issues and heartache, called 'Crossing Over'.

    Parent
    Have the authoritarians... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:58:01 PM EST
    no sense of decency?  I thought kidnapping was one of the reasons immigration is a hot topic again...now one has to worry about bastard coyote bandits and the bastard authorities kidnapping their kids for a ransom of money or flesh...lovely.

    "Police and Thieves in the street..."

    Parent

    Gracious! (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:53:54 PM EST
    Here's a link to a pretty fascinating interview of a deported illegal immigrant (audio only, sorry kdog). Click on "Not At Home In Mexico."

    Quick recap: Mexican couple comes to the US illegally with their 1 y/o son 19 years ago.

    Recently the now 20 y/o gets deported back to Mexico. Trigger event is, apparently, his two drug paraphernalia arrests.

    Is now living in Guadalajara with/near his mother's sister and where, apparently, his education and accent-free English are quite marketable assets.

    Some takeaways:

    He's pretty upbeat and making the best of it, considering.

    He says he didn't know that he was illegal until he wanted to get his driver's license at age 16 and found he didn't and couldn't have a SS#.

    His sister is a citizen and his parents are also now through his sister. iow, his sister was the anchor baby.

    While most of his fellow ICE deportees were Latino there were also African, Filipino and British deportees as well.

    He won't try to sneak back into the US because the penalties are too great.

    He sounds like a really decent kid.

    lucky for him (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:18:51 PM EST
    he had family to go to in Mexico.  Did he say whether he was gonna try and come here legally?

    "He sounds like a really decent kid"

    Why wouldn't we want him here then?  I dunno, I just don't view immigration through the same prism I guess.  I think immigrants are our country's greatest assets.  That's why comparisons to other country's immigration laws don't really matter to me.  I think that's one of the things that makes us better.

    In any event, glad to hear he's doing well.

    For what it's worth, I had illegal immigrants in my family too, cousins/aunt of my father.  They were Jews who left Germany with fake papers.  It's hard for me to hate on illegal immigrants who come here for a better life.  Although in this economy, it sounds like he maybe got the better end of that deal.

    Ironically, I think the poor economy which makes people want to kick people out, also makes it less likely for people to want to come here.

    Parent

    Yes, he needs to wait 5 years (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:43:50 PM EST
    before he can apply to come here legally.

    For the record, please don't confuse my "prism" on "immigrants" with that of illegal immigration. Also please don't confuse "hating on" with accepting that some laws are necessary.

    I gotta understand something though, your relatives had faked US immigration papers? Or faked emmigration papers from Germany?

    Parent

    fake passports I think (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:51:52 PM EST
    because they couldn't leave Germany as Jews, and they couldn't enter the U.S. as Germans (too many Germans had already come, quota was filled).  So they came as Italians - Mussolini wasn't letting Italians leave so the quota was not full.

    Parent
    I like your family tree... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:56:26 PM EST
    It's the kinda sh*t you gotta do to not get ground to pieces by this world and its systems...mad props to your forebearers.

    Parent
    And getting away with it, too. Oughta be a movie in that...

    Parent
    haha yea (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:20:17 PM EST
    longish/interesting story actually.

    Parents had been living in Italy (fluent in Italian, with Italian connections - that probably helped a lot) but got kicked out of Italy in WW1 for being German.

    Then as they were standing in line to show fake papers for leaving Germany - the blond-haired/blue-eyed half-jewish 5-year old son started playing with some Nazis.  Mom is freaking out but keeping her mouth shut.  When it came time to show their papers, Nazis stepped in and said "they're with us".  And that's how my dad's cousin got to America.

    Parent

    Great stuff! (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:40:58 PM EST
    Wow, what a story (none / 0) (#84)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 12:09:28 AM EST
    Thanks for sharing it. It's hard to imagine going through that.

    Parent
    also (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:07:14 PM EST
    fwiw I don't believe in completely open borders either.  I do have a serious problem with stopping people for suspicion of being an immigrant.  If you get busted, and get caught, that's one thing.  But I absolutely think the new laws are an invitation for abuse.

    And I just don't think it's logistically possible to kick out all the illegal immigrants without using measures that I consider unneccessarily intrusive.  But I also don't think it's good to have millions of people here who aren't accounted for and are at the mercy of whomever.  So yes, I think immigration reform that provides some sort of path to citizenship for people is the most logical, unintrusive way to solve the problem.

    Parent

    All good, but can I ask you: (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:14:05 PM EST
    So yes, I think immigration reform that provides some sort of path to citizenship for people is the most logical, unintrusive way to solve the problem.
    If there is a system by which illegal immigrants earn citizenship but more illegal immigrants continue to enter illegally and reside illegally in this country, what is the problem that has been solved?

    Parent
    the problem of (none / 0) (#47)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:24:33 PM EST
    the ones that are here under the radar.  I think it's more usefull to have people who are recognized by the law.  Just the fact that they have to be paid minimum wage might alleviate some of the "we can't compete" issues.

    If we kick everyone out that we can find and people continue to come in - what is the problem that has been solved?

    Parent

    I don't think my question was clear. (none / 0) (#50)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:35:29 PM EST
    If you grant amnesty, path to citizenship, whatever you wish to call it, it is pretty clear that many more illegal immigrants will then enter the country and who will all then be here "under the radar."

    And, these illegal immigrants will then take the "under minimum wage jobs" jobs the newly minted citizens had been doing while they were illegal but cannot do any more now that they are citizens.

    At least, that's what happened from the 1986 amnesty program and there's no reason to believe it won't happen again, afaik.

    the net result is we will still have piles of illegal immigrants here "under the radar."

    So what is the problem that is solved?

    Parent

    i don't know how you stop (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:41:29 PM EST
    illegal immigration - no matter what you do with the people who are already here.

    Parent
    mandatory (none / 0) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:45:43 PM EST
    explosive implants and a trigger fence.

    Parent
    What about the drones? (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:56:57 PM EST
    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:56:41 PM EST
    So if you grant a path to citizenship for an unlimited number ov illegal immigrants, and you don't stop illegal immigration, the result will be that unlimited illegal immigrants will continue to come the US and get on line to become citizens.

    iow, defacto open borders.

    Currently immigration is controlled. There are now about 1,000,000 legal immigrants per year and over 37,000,000 legal immigrants currently in the US, ie, about 1 in 10 of us is an immigrant - according to wiki.

    What is the right number per year? Obviously zero is too few and 1,000,000,000 is too many, but what is the right number?

    I sure don't know...

    Parent

    open the borders north and south (none / 0) (#54)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:52:58 PM EST
    we respect each others' passports and they can be used as documentation to work etc. Make it illegal to pay below min wage. Stiff fines/penalties/jail time for those that do.

    Parent
    It's already illegal with stiff fines, (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:00:36 PM EST
    and it's not working. And we already have 1,000,000 a year coming into the US legally to work. The idea is intriguing, though...

    Parent
    but if the workers are working legally (none / 0) (#61)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:05:56 PM EST
    more likely to report. plus their pay would be subject to taxes, so it would be on record. they would be protected under our workplace rules. also, could possibly boost conditions for those working the same jobs in Mexico/wherever. competition and all. we obviously need more legal workers than we have coming in.

    Parent
    How would higher wages in the US (none / 0) (#64)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:14:54 PM EST
    translate to higher waqes for the same jobs in Mexico/wherever? I don't think there is a shortage of workers in either the US or Mexico, that is the problem.

    And in many industries the more expensive labor is in the US the less of that labor will be done in the US and the more of it that will be done in Mexico/wherever and then imported to the US.

    Parent

    lets take farm workers (none / 0) (#66)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:22:37 PM EST
    if they make a better wage here, why would they work in Mexico for a company that has fields in both locations? you can't tell me they are suddenly going to stop growing strawberries here because the workers want a fair wage. somebody will. levels the playing field some when companies start losing resources for slave labor.

    Parent
    There is a surplus of labor. (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:27:38 PM EST
    If you pay more to pick strawberries here, and the Mexican strawberry pickers move from Mexico to here, there are still many, many more people still in Mexico who will pick those Mexican strawberries for the lower wage. Then the Mexican strawberries are cheaper than the US strawberries and they get imported to the US and put the US strawberry farmers out of business.

    There is a surplus of labor in the strawberry fields, among many (almost all?) other industries...

    Parent

    Now if Mexico enacted the same min wage (none / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:31:09 PM EST
    requirements as we do, that would be interesting.

    Parent
    we might (none / 0) (#70)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:33:55 PM EST
    have some reverse border crossing.

    Parent
    Yep. (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:39:58 PM EST
    He's in my south of the border spot... (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:44:00 PM EST
    think they'd let us do a prisoner exchange...I mean citizen exchange?

    Parent
    Thanks for the recap... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:05:02 PM EST
    I look forward to checking it out.

    Reminds me of my undocumented buddy who's been here since he was a toddler...definitely as American as I am, just didn't hit the birth lottery when it comes to parents.

    If he ever gets snared he's royally f*cked...the hairs on my neck might stand up when I hear a siren, but he turns white as a ghost.  It's really no way to have to live.

    Parent

    or something, after being out of the country for 5 years. He's got a great attitude about it all.

    Parent
    Oh man... (none / 0) (#81)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 08:52:27 PM EST
    Reading such tales is hard enough, but hearing him tell it......so much nasty on top of nasty. Horrible.

    It is amazing how upbeat and understanding he sounds, he's a saint...I think I'd wanna kill somebody if that happened to me...like maybe the screw ridiculing the poor guy.

    Another one who is just as American as you or I...adults who cross the border is one thing but what's being done to people like Albert...it's so f*cked up.

    Parent

    $600 million for border security (none / 0) (#22)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:26:01 PM EST
    Approved by Senate.  On its way to Obama's desk for signature.

    h/t HuffPo

    WASHINGTON -- Determined to show a commitment to stopping the flow of illegal immigrants, the Senate convened a special session Thursday and passed a $600 million bill to put more agents and equipment along the Mexican border.

    The voice vote in the nearly empty Senate chamber sends the legislation to President Barack Obama, who planned to sign it into law on Friday. Obama had urged Congress to channel more money toward border security amid complaints from states besieged by undocumented immigrants and illegal drug trafficking.

    Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., the chief sponsor, said the measure would provide Obama and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano "with the boots on the ground and the resources necessary to combat the crime and violence."

    Obama said the bill would help protect communities along the Southwest border and across the country.

    "And this new law will also strengthen our partnership with Mexico in targeting the gangs and criminal organizations that operate on both sides of our shared border," he said in a statement.

    House Democrats had also called a special session, summoning lawmakers back from their summer break Tuesday to pass the border security bill and a $26 billion aid bill to keep teachers and other public workers from being laid off. Both issues - jobs and border security - are among those expected to be on voters' minds when they go to the polls in November.

    Senate historian Donald Ritchie said it was only the second time since the August break became official policy in 1970 that the Senate had reconvened. The first time was after Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

    The border security measure would fund the hiring of 1,000 new Border Patrol agents to be deployed at critical areas along the border, 250 more Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents, and 250 more Customs and Border Protection officers.

    It provides for new communications equipment and greater use of unmanned surveillance drones. There are currently seven such drones along the border. Almost one-third of the money goes to the Justice Department to help agencies such as the FBI, the DEA and the ATF deal with drug dealers and human traffickers.

    The bill is paid for by raising fees on foreign-based personnel companies that use U.S. visa programs, including the popular H-1B program, to bring skilled workers to the United States. India says higher fees would discriminate against its companies and workers.



    Thanks Chuck (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by PatHat on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:39:39 PM EST
    Can you believe Schumer flew into Syracuse this week to advertise this "achievement"? Unemployment is rampant in Upstate NY and he's spending $600 million in the southwest US. At least if he was spending the money building a fence between NY and Canada....

    Parent
    two related(?) stories (none / 0) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:26:04 PM EST
    Men are the best bosses:  (and it's women themselves who say so)

    About 3,000 men and women were questioned for the research, with three- quarters of men agreeing that they would rather work for a man than a woman.

    A quarter of women accused female bosses of backstabbing and bringing their personal lives into the office.

    And a third of those polled said women with power are `loose cannons' who often feel threatened by colleagues.



    How did those steeped in the women's lib movement produce girls who think being a sex object is powerful?


     Olivia, an articulate 15-year-old who's about to enter Grade 10 at a Toronto private girls' school, thinks feminists are about as relevant to her life as a rotary-dial phone. "When I hear the word I think of the hippie-ish generation where they're all `girl-power,' " she says. And not in a sexy Spice Girls "girl power" way, more in a humourless, style-less way: "They refuse to wear perfume because they don't want to be seen as sex objects," she says dismissively.

    Like many other teenage girls, Olivia regards the fight for female equality as over. "In the Western world, we're pretty equal," she says.



    It breaks my heart to say it (none / 0) (#30)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:44:04 PM EST
    But most of my female bosses were um, how do you say, "control freaks"?  Being that I,too, am a control freak, this does not make for a happy relationship - no matter how hard I tried to please them.  Most of them were nice enough - I only had one crazy be-yotch and one half crazy one, but they were weird working relationships.

    Now, all the men weren't the best either, but I can understand the sentiment of the article.

    Interestingly, I know many strong women with whom I have worked (but not for), who were fabulous - both with co-workers and their employees.  I just never had the luck to work for someone like that.

    Parent

    Best boss I ever had... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:49:02 PM EST
    was a woman...come to think of it the top two bosses I ever had were both women.

    Parent
    We know you, kdog... (none / 0) (#42)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:07:25 PM EST
    Just what kind of "bosses" were they? Hmm, kdog?

    They weren't wearing stilleto boots and carrying a riding crop by any chance, were they, Mr. Kdog?

    Parent

    Well (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:41:47 PM EST
    Clearly, from the responses here, the experimenter, namely the employee, affects the experiment big time.... lol

    Parent
    i know what you mean (none / 0) (#34)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:48:08 PM EST
    I have had some good and some bad of both genders. I can't say I have had more bad of one than the other, proportionally.

    Parent
    Oh yeah, not like their male bosses (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:46:04 PM EST
    women with power are `loose cannons' who often feel threatened by colleagues.

    And I just heard a male colleague talk for 15 minutes about his mother's surgery.  

    And where do I start with Olivia? I think media images of women have not helped her perceptions, to say the least.

    Parent

    Olivia (none / 0) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:57:02 PM EST
    how sad.  really.
    personally.  I have always preferred working for women.


    Parent
    less politics and more (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:09:10 PM EST
    focus on actual tasks--that is what I remember from women bosses....I guess that is because women bosses in my day didn't achieve success via the political route--but rather by hard work. So, they were more about doing the job.....

    Not without down side--it was harder snow the female boses, although they were nice....

    Parent

    harder to snow (none / 0) (#44)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:10:14 PM EST
    I used to work for (none / 0) (#80)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:14:05 PM EST
    an older Afro-American woman years ago who used tell me: "John, I was born with a 'veil over my face' (with the second sight). You know that that means? It means you can never lie to me.."

    That was a woman who knew how to cut through the b.s in a hurray..

     

    Parent

    Olivia hasn't joined the (none / 0) (#57)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:58:26 PM EST
    workforce yet. I don't think she quite has a grasp of "equal" in the real world . . .

    Parent
    fair enough (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:02:06 PM EST
    and at 15 girls are actually doing much better than boys in school.  So that comment is probably close to her reality.  Unless she likes math and science.  I'll never forget the time I had a math teacher try to convince me I didn't like math.  Not that I wasn't good at it.  But that I didn't want to take it.  Mind boggling.

    Parent
    heh, they were convinced (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by nycstray on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:10:14 PM EST
    I was cheating in math . . . which was funny since I had been in excel classes for years in math/science.

    my niece at 27 doesn't grasp some of the issues either. not being subjected to some of it does give them a disconnect.

    Parent

    has anyone seen the movie (none / 0) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:08:59 PM EST
    Jennifers Body?

    it was not exactly what I expected.  I liked it more than I expected.  and it has some funny insights into this subject.

    Parent

    That just sux (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:31:20 PM EST
    I had two horrible female boss, and two very good female bosses.  My top bosses though are both men.  It isn't fair.  Why is it so?  We must fix this.  My worst female boss....wow was she a nightmare and whenever anyone tried to call her on it she always played the sexism card shamelessly.  She made my life miserable for a couple of years too.

    Parent
    All my best bosses have been women (none / 0) (#65)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:19:13 PM EST
    Three, in particular, were exemplary leaders, easy to work for, and rewarded quality without being competitive in the least. My two worst bosses were both men. One was an obsessive control freak (and a liar); the other was an incompetent with serious substance abuse issues. Ah well. I did have one good male boss in my lifetime, when I worked at a dance studio during music school. He used to help me with my composition and arranging homework. One of the nicest people in the world.

    Parent
    So it is the luck of the draw (none / 0) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:39:28 PM EST
    I have had far fewer female bosses than male.

    Parent
    well (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:46:13 PM EST
    the absolute worst boss I ever had was a woman.  but I dont think it had anything to do with gender.
    as I said, on the whole I have always preferred working with women.

    Parent
    Coming out of WY there aren't (none / 0) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:50:30 PM EST
    many opportunities to have female bosses.  One of my female bosses had a horrible substance abuse problem  too as one of shoephones male bosses did, and that is why she is on my list of "bad" bosses.  Bosses with substance abuse problems often make work intolerable.

    Parent
    in this company (none / 0) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:57:21 PM EST
    there are almost no women in the creative end but a surprising number in middle management.
    and they are consistently better at it than the men they hire for the same jobs.


    Parent
    I agree, luck of the draw (none / 0) (#78)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:52:17 PM EST
    If I could clone that one dance studio boss, I'd gladly have him as boss in my next job, and the one after that...

    A nice sense of humor is the key IMO, no matter the gender.

    Parent

    I've had a great woman boss (none / 0) (#77)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:50:42 PM EST
    and an awful one, the latter being a holdover from the earlier days when a woman got ahead by being co-opted.  So she never stood up for us, thought for herself, etc. -- as my good bosses, women or men, did.  The best also had great senses of humor, but not the awful boss scared of her shadow -- well, even more of men's shadows over her. . . .

    Of course, the great woman boss went on to greater things and now runs one of the largest campus systems in the country.  That's because she had a bad woman boss who was threatened by her, I think -- but that has been a problem, the worst, with so many male bosses I've endured as well.

    Parent

    A song and performance... (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:26:56 PM EST
    And one more from PJ Harvey (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:36:08 PM EST
    Now listen, people (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:53:30 PM EST
    I'm linking to another great song. Llorca's "The Novel Sound." Jazz meets Dance meets Groovopolis. With greate poetry at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end.

    Sample of that lyrical poetry:

    "Out there somewhere are the kind of people who do not accept the premature autopsy of a noble art form;

    These are the ones who follow in the footsteps of the gifted and the disciplined;

    Who have been deeply hurt but not discouraged, who have been frightened but who have not forgotten how to be brave;

    Who revel in the company of their friends and sweethearts, but who are willing to face the loneliness that is demanded of mastery."



    omg (none / 0) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:35:13 PM EST