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Business Judgment

Via Atrios, Yves Smith:

[T]he cost of money is only one factor in a business’s decision to expand, and outside of financial firms, it’s typically a constraint, not a spur. If you run a dry cleaner, are you going to say, “Gee, my borrowing rate went down a point, I think I’ll open that new store”? The fall in the cost of money would change your action only if it was a critical factor, at the margin, and had restricted you. And for the vast majority of enterprises, the decision of whether to grow or not is based first and foremost on their reading of the environment, which includes the strength of the market for their services, the likelihood of competitor response, whether there are steps they can take to alleviate risk, like securing commitments from prospective customers or tying up critical technology or vendors.

Paul O'Neill:[More...]

I'm kind of amused by some of the conversation about companies hoarding $1.5 trillion worth of cash, or something, because I had a rule when I was in the private sector for 25 years, including 13 running Alcoa, and that is, don't hire people unless you have somebody demanding goods that you can't produce with the people you already have. [. . .] So it seems patently unrealistic to me to urge people to spend money unless there's a demand that they're not able to satisfy with their existing resources. [. . .] Why would you? I mean, it's crazy. It's not a charitable function if you're running a business to say oh, my goodness, we have so many millions of people unemployed, I should rush out and spend my cash and hire more people if there's no demand for the goods. It's crazy to me.

(Emphasis supplied.) The problem is dismal aggregate demand. And until there is more demand, there will not be employment growth and in de facto recession is where we will remain. The private sector can't spur it. Only government intervention can. And monetary intervention simply will not do much. It must be fiscal stimulus. Or we can stop worrying and learn to love 15% real unemployment rates.

Speaking for me only

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    And aggregate demand will be depressed (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:30:37 AM EST
    as long as even 10% of mortgages are underwater, never mind the numbers approaching 50% we see now.

    So yes, unless we are willing to do something about that, we better get used to 15% unemployment. And from what I can tell, there is little will to discuss serious solutions to that problem.

    Let's face it, (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:38:10 AM EST
     the critical issue for our generation is climate change. Our civilization literally depends on our decisions today.

    A Manhattan Project, or Marshal Plan to combat climate change.

    I know the political obstacles, but if you can fantasize for a moment, it would be the answer to our problems.

    Just think: Everyone has a job doing the most meaningful work they will ever do, the economy booms, and we save our Earth.

    Replacing all roofs with white shingles (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:52:44 AM EST
    would go a long way towards both problems.  Shingles made in the USA, installation in the USA.

    And that is just one simple, low tech thing that could be started tomorrow.

    Parent

    I could really get behind that! (none / 0) (#10)
    by Coral on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:48:14 AM EST
    Can you imagine the GOP heads exploding? It would be fun to see a serious proposal like this from the Obama administration...just to see the wild & crazy response.

    Parent
    IIRC the offsets for the money (none / 0) (#20)
    by MO Blue on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:45:35 AM EST
    going to states for teachers, fireman policemen etc. were reductions in money for food stamps and cuts to funds for renewable energy.

    Parent
    I looked into the food stamp (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:57:55 AM EST
    thing, but I didn't see the renewable energy cuts.

    FWIW the cuts to the food stamp program don't happen untill 2014 and then they bring them down to pre-stimulus levels.  I think everyone is hoping by then that will be ok.  I'm not sure it will be, but if it's not, that's enough time to fix the food stamp issue.

    Still, not the place I would have gone looking for that money.

    Parent

    Energy loan guarantee cuts (none / 0) (#45)
    by MO Blue on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:43:17 PM EST
    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) just sent out a statement responding to criticism for renewable energy advocates about the state aid bill that passed earlier today. As I noted in a previous blog, the renewable energy industry is furious that the bill cut $1.5 billion in energy loan guarantees to pay for the legislation, which provides $26.1 billion for teachers' salaries and Medicaid.

    According to Pelosi, the Obama administration has committed to "restore" the loan guarantee funding. link



    Parent
    The only way to increase aggregate (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:38:41 AM EST
    demand at this juncture is to employ people.  The wages of Americans have dismal for a very long period of time and they were making up for it on loose credit....that's over now.  We are going to experience some deflation in pricing, but aggregate demand won't do much for a very long time without jobs for the unemployed.

    I agree that the only way to stimulate demand (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:56:39 AM EST
    is to hire people, but I suspect this Bush-Obama Depression is going to have a long-term effect not disimilar to that from the Hoover Depression.  For many years thereafter, the economic behavior of the generation that grew up or was adult during that Depression had three defining characteristics:
    1.  never buy anything on credit
    2.  use it up, wear it out, fix it up, make it do
    3.  avoid the stock market like the plague.

    All three of those, while they might allow for long-term growth in aggregate demand, will not and cannot give the economy the quick jolt of stimulant everyone seems to be demanding.

    The core economic difference today, though, is that back then there was no manufacturing sector in the developing world which today facilitates labor arbitrage and therefore will prevent US-based manuifacturing from providing the employment-based growth in demand.  

    The core political differnce is that, back then, there were real Democrats who actually listened to their base voters instead of their bankster buddies.  

    Perhaps, as I also am seeing (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:27:22 AM EST
    some striking behaviors by 20-somethings I know, quite a few, and talking about many friends doing so, too.  Cutting up credit cards.  Cutting back, even cutting out on all those tanning sessions and pedicures.  Asking about how to budget from the parents they deplored for frugalities such as making do with bargain makeup.  And these are the ones with work -- but they're underemployed and seeing too many of their age group on the edge.

    Not quite the behavior of my Depression-era dad, who watered down ketchup even decades later.   Lordy, how we hated that, and how many plates of fries it ruined! But it's quite a change in the behaviors of the former fashion plates -- and I think that at this age and stage, it could be formative for decades to come for them.    

    Parent

    Did your mom mix powdered milk (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:39:58 AM EST
    and water in to dilute the dairy milk?  Lumpy!

    Parent
    Yup. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:06:21 AM EST
    That was done by slaking it and dissolving it in water, in an old, well-cleaned, mayonnaise jar.  A good shaking cured the lumpy problem.  It also involved not returning to the local dairy one of the glass half-gallon milk jugs in which the milk came, so the fresh milk could be cut half-and-half into that empty jug.  The glass jugs were a nice touch, as was the fact that the local dairy whence they came was some farm down the road with a couple hundred dairy cows that milked them in a glassed-in milking parlor where you could watch then processed the milk on site and sold it to you in a store at the front of the barn.  In the area where I grew up there were a couple operations like that, all gone now after the passing of their respective owners, being regulated out of business by the big dairies capturing the regulators and ultimately the conversion of the land into subdivisions.  But it was nice.

    Parent
    Oh noooes. I forgot that one (none / 0) (#38)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:58:04 AM EST
    but your comment brings back the taste of that awful stuff even now.  And the lumps, ugh, ugh.

    Parent
    My mom used to wait till we were in bed to (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:36:13 PM EST
    make the mix. Had us fooled for a long time.
    I have found, however, that powdered milk works fine for the baking I do. If I buy liquid, it just goes bad before I consume it.

    Parent
    My daughter had one card (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:50:48 AM EST
    She paid it off and cut it up.  She has no cable either and she is now reading every single day.  I buy her books.  She goes through them like mad.  She buys frozen juices and keeps a pitcher in the fridge.  I have not made such self improvements as I walk to the trashcan with handfulls of empty juice pouches between Josh and the girls.  I should be embarrassed at myself but I'm not quite there yet.

    Parent
    ugh (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:55:42 PM EST
    I just applied for my first credit card.  I never ever wanted one - but you need it to rent a car unless you're self insured, which I'm not, cuz I don't have a car.

    Parent
    Too bad there... (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:02:37 AM EST
    was no McDonalds back then...your dad woulda picked up the habit of hoarding little ketchup packets instead, saving the fries:)

    Parent
    I'm still working off my hoard of (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:08:31 AM EST
    hotel shampoo, soap and body wash which I accumulated over the years of occasional stays in hotels here and there.  It's been over a year since I had to buy soap.

    And I have several years worth of homemade jam still on the shelf, too.

    Parent

    Nah, tthat's my spouse (none / 0) (#39)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:02:15 PM EST
    who does that.  And he has incredible knowledge of where to find free refills.  I finally talked him into getting an I-phone, and he is reveling in apps -- and I have suggested that with his tech savvy, he could start creating apps for the cheapsters, such as where to find free refills.  Now I'll add to the app list one on where to find the best free packets of condiments.

    Every once in a while, I get so fed up with them spilling out of the fridge and the cupboards that I throw away, say, 87 packets of soy sauce.  Really, how many packets of soy sauce can a man need?

    Parent

    My husband does that too (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:51:03 PM EST
    He saves taco bell sauce, and horsey sauce, and he saves the garlic sauces that come with pizza too.  I try to be understanding, and I put a plastic container in the fridge for him to put them.  He never does, so I scoop them up and put them in it.  Eventually it is overflowing and then I find them layering the meat drawer.

    I lose it then.  Throw them ALL in the trash snarfing about horders the whole time, clean the whole fridge too while I'm at it.  After that I feel renewed, and I'm magically accommodating again and the whole thing starts all over.  

    Parent

    Too funny... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 01:11:09 PM EST
    my cold cut drawer has 87 soys beat easy...I got at least 90, plus an equal number of hot mustard and duck sauce.

    Can't remember ever buying napkins either...we got the brown ones from Taco Bell for everyday use, and the nice white ones from upscale take-out places for when we have a dinner party.

    Parent

    I can't get enough of the hot mustard (none / 0) (#50)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 01:59:14 PM EST
    They only give you one here and even then only if you ask.  And I go through 2 or 3 just with a pint of fried rice.

    Parent
    I'm in tight with the Chinese food guy... (none / 0) (#51)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:19:00 PM EST
    I get handfuls of everything without asking...I see him at the OTB all the time, we degenerates gotta stick together:)

    Parent
    another suggestion (none / 0) (#52)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:24:40 PM EST
    go to food places, specifically breakfast food (starbucks, brueggers, etc...) right before they close.  A lot of times they will give you free bagels or whatever if you just ask.

    Parent
    Hell yeah... (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:34:34 PM EST
    works late night too...a new fried chicken joint opened up recently in my 'hood, and the young entreprenuer is gonna make it I think...whenever we go near closing time we get double the chicken we pay for...that's smart business, we're never buying chicken anyplace else.

    Parent
    Even if the chicken is 2d rate, (none / 0) (#60)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:55:38 PM EST
    getting double the chicken is about as good as it can be.

    If the chicken is 2d rate, take the time to befriend the guy and coach him on how to make it better.  I developed some unlikely and valued friends - cooks and such - by hanging around and talking about the food, always in a complementary way.

    Parent

    That's a good resource (none / 0) (#62)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:00:10 PM EST
    Where I am, there's like one decent Chinese takeout place and even that's not that good.  They actually charge for additional soy, mustard, or duck sauce.

    Parent
    buy napkins? (none / 0) (#55)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:37:54 PM EST
    People actually do that? I'm with you, kdog. They put them out there, then as many as I want.

    Parent
    As a GM of a food place (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Raskolnikov on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 07:39:55 PM EST
    and accountable for my store's paper costs, shame on you sirs!  Somewhat the reason behind my cutting back on the number of napkin dispensers about, make it a little harder for ya! ;)

    Parent
    I just stick with paper towels - (none / 0) (#61)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 03:58:52 PM EST
    the cheap kind.  They serve well for napkins, towels, mopping up after the dog, you name it.

    And if I want to be nice and not lay out paper towels for napkins, do like I did.  I bought some cloth restaurant napkins a few years back for like a buck a pop and they've lasted forever.  Just make sure you soak them before the stains dry or get a chance to set.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:04:19 PM EST
    you can rewash Bounty... lol

    Parent
    All we can do is our best (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:04:20 AM EST
    Even a jolt is not going to solve the ills.  It is a different world also than the one the Great Depression dealt with.  It is more interconnected so I can't see us all being consumed by the learned severe austerity that caused my grandmother to save all pickle jars.  I think the stock market is washed up again though when this is all said and done.

    Parent
    My mother, too (none / 0) (#34)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:33:52 AM EST
    Pickle jars, broken windowshades, scraps (literally) of fabric from this or that, all carefully carted from house to house when the family had to move three or four times, and stored away just in case.

    Parent
    String! Balls of string (none / 0) (#40)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:06:37 PM EST
    in junk drawers full of you-never-know-what-you-may-need stuff.  I well remember finally moving my folks out of their house after decades, having to convince them not to take boxes full of pickle jars to an apartment.

    But it is inherited.  However, I have managed to restrain myself to no more than a few empty pickle jars and other recyclables at a time.

    Parent

    I'm very artistic (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:33:45 PM EST
    Have been my whole life.  Vera was the worse saver over my other grandmother and I spent more time with Vera.  She taught me to sew, very well I might add.  But if I were bored or I had a school project she was worth her weight in gold for her many "savings".  The possibilities were endless going through the scraps and momentos.  When she passed she even had unsharpened pencils from an Eisenhower campaign.  She saved all sorts of campaign junk.

    Parent
    Don't pressure can in old pickle jars. (none / 0) (#56)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:39:35 PM EST
    The jars and lids work just fine for water bath canning, though. It's easy enough to boil the lids long enough to kill anything.

    Parent
    And rubber bands, balls of (none / 0) (#59)
    by caseyOR on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:57:21 PM EST
    rubber bands. And washing and reusing the aluminum foil. And using a flexible spatula to scrape every last bit of peanut butter out of the jar.

    I, too, have had to practice a bit of self-discipline when it comes to the whole "never know when you'll need it" syndrome. My Depression-raised parents left a big mark on my psyche.

    Parent

    Sh*t... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:21:49 AM EST
    I was born in 1977 and your list of 3 is gospel to me.

    An economy that cannot function without regular people borrowing themselves into glorified indentured servitude ain't much of an economic model...we're so collectively f*cked, and the only way I can think of to avoid getting f*cked personally is to live by that list of three.  There has gotta be a better way.

    Parent

    I was your babysitter (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:34:16 PM EST
    That is depressing

    Parent
    Well, MT, if you're his babysitter, I'm (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by caseyOR on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 02:48:55 PM EST
    kdog's mother.

    Parent
    Is it time to start talking about (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:12:13 AM EST
    a Jobs Guarantee?

    A job guarantee program is one in which government promises to make a job available to any qualifying individual who is ready and willing to work. Qualifications required of participants could include age range (i.e. teens), gender, family status (i.e. heads of households), family income (i.e. below poverty line), educational attainment (i.e. high school dropouts), residency (i.e. rural), and so on. The most general program would provide a universal job guarantee, sometimes also called an employer of last resort (ELR) program in which government promises to provide a job to anyone legally entitled to work.

    [snip]

    Benefits include poverty reduction, amelioration of many social ills associated with chronic unemployment (health problems, spousal abuse and family break-up, drug abuse, crime), and enhanced skills due to training on the job. Forstater (1999) has emphasized how ELR can be used to increase economic flexibility and to enhance the environment. The program would improve working conditions in the private sector as employees would have the option of moving into the ELR program. Hence, private sector employers would have to offer a wage and benefit package and working conditions at least as good as those offered by the ELR program. The informal sector would shrink as workers become integrated into formal employment, gaining access to protection provided by labor laws. There would be some reduction of racial or gender discrimination because unfairly treated workers would have the ELR option, however, ELR by itself cannot end discrimination. Still, it has long been recognized that full employment is an important tool in the fight for equality. (Darity 1999) Forstater (1999) has emphasized how ELR can be used to increase economic flexibility and to improve the environment as projects can be directed to mitigate ecological problems.

    Finally, some supporters emphasize that an ELR program with a uniform basic wage also helps to promote economic and price stability. ELR will act as an automatic stabilizer as employment in the program grows in recession and shrinks in economic expansion, counteracting private sector employment fluctuations. The federal government budget will become more counter-cyclical because its spending on the ELR program will likewise grow in recession and fall in expansion. Furthermore, the uniform basic wage will reduce both inflationary pressure in a boom and deflationary pressure in a bust. In a boom, private employers can recruit from the ELR pool of workers, paying a mark-up over the ELR wage. The ELR pool acts like a "reserve army" of the employed, dampening wage pressures as private employment grows. In recession, workers down-sized by private employers can work at the ELR wage, which puts a floor to how low wages and income can go.

    Critics argue that a job guarantee would be inflationary, using some version of a Phillips Curve approach according to which lower unemployment necessarily means higher inflation. (Sawyer 2003) Some argue that ELR would reduce the incentive to work, raising private sector costs because of increased shirking, since workers would no longer fear job loss. Workers might be emboldened to ask for greater wage increases. Some argue that an ELR program would be so big that it would be impossible to manage; some fear corruption; others argue that it would be impossible to find useful things for ELR workers to do; still others argue that it would be difficult to discipline ELR workers. It has been argued that a national job guarantee would be too expensive, causing the budget deficit to grow on an unsustainable path; and that higher employment would worsen trade deficits. (Aspromourgous 2000; King 2001; See Mitchell and Wray 2005 for responses to all of these critiques.)

    I'm as far from being an economics wonk as it is possible to be, so those with more expertise can - please! - weigh in; is this the kind of government spending that would make the most sense and provide the most benefit?

    I have a hard time imagining a president Obama, who dreamed up the Cat Food Commission, going for anything like this, but maybe it ought to be part of the conversation, anyway.

    A jobs guarantee (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:39:36 AM EST
    Cannot and will not in my opinion spur inflation.  That's just stupid as all hell.  Prices were inflated due to extremely loose credit, that is completely over now.  We are on the cusp of some new deflation in areas other than housing.  A jobs guarantee would help some of that.  But inflation?  How?  They aren't going to give us all 200k/year jobs are they?  They will probably all be minimum wage right?

    Parent
    Such theortical programs (none / 0) (#21)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:48:01 AM EST
    depend on wages below that of minimum wage, otherwise they discourage people from entering the private sector workspace.  If the ELP was at or above the private sector wages, it can create a private labor shortage which drives higher wage demands in the private sector, ipso facto inflationary pressure.

    Parent
    How silly.....minimum wage is fine (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 10:58:38 AM EST
    Why would someone keep a crappy ditch digging job when one finally opened up as a paralegal and that was their dream or goal or past experience?  Plus, in such job programs where is the ability to excel?  It doesn't exist.  The desire to excel though is part of most personalities and as soon as situations improved they would be moving along to such job possibilities.  If there is one thing I dislike about most conservatives, it is that they seem to believe that most people are shiftless worthless human trash at their core and it is only through suffering and beatings that anyone developes the ability to marginally overcome that.

    Parent
    I was only addressing your inflation question. (none / 0) (#31)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:18:16 AM EST
    Not all of the jobs would be digging ditches and human nature being what it is, not everyone is driven to work harder, most are but not all.  

    What can also happen is the expansion of the program to include "better" types of jobs providing that upward career path within the system.

    Am only attempting to delve deeper into some of the nut and bolts and some of the unintended consequences that can happen.  If such programs were the silver bullets for managing employment/unemployment they would have long ago been established, even in a contingency use mode.

    Parent

    You don't know what the jobs would (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:43:56 AM EST
    be, neither do I.  Things could be expanded in different ways...sure, neither one of us know what could happen....but that is life.  You don't know if you will fall over dead tomorrow from a stroke either, but you don't stop living today because it could happen.

    Economies are supposed to serve human beings.  This one no longer does.  I'm having a really hard time at this point worrying about it getting all out of control in its service to human beings and over serving them.  It has practically broken all of us.

    I truly don't fear the burn it to the ground approach either.  I've lived through worse.  I'm very intelligent and self focused and I'll likely make it with me and mine just fine.  Many people won't make it through this and be better people though after being treated like animals.  I worry about them.  And if you have a bunch of wounded animals out there you aren't very safe to enjoy YOUR life either even if you are a good survivor :)

    Parent

    MONEY is theoretical (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Dadler on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:07:06 AM EST
    Is is a completely artificial thing entirely under our control. A jobs guarantee program would COMPETE with the private sector -- imagine that, a REAL alternative for people. That is, currently you are FORCED to play one economic game, the fixed dollar game entirely controlled by the tiny percentage of our population who control the lion's share of the money (money, btw, that the GOVERNMENT prints and issues and guarantees...the gov't by, of and for the people supposedly). It is a giant casino at this point. Offer people the choice to play a new game, with a new system that has FAIR AND EQUITABLE RULES, and you will see great things happen. Because the only thing that gives money a lick of value is the thoughts and feelings of human beings. Get the mass of Americans feeling good about their future -- while still allowing them, if they choose, to play the casino dollar game -- and only good things can happen.

    However, the traitorous greed and callous disregard for the health of the nation and their fellow citizens evidenced by much of the financial masters in this country, as always, is a huge impediment to progress. It is a class that needs, if not to be completely destroyed, then taxed and shamed and threatened into acting like sentient human beings.

    Parent

    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#64)
    by sj on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:39:58 PM EST
    otherwise they discourage people from entering the private sector workspace

    The current problem is that the private sector jobs don't exist.  Have you heard about the unemployement rate?


    Parent

    Suggest you do some additional (none / 0) (#65)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:01:15 PM EST
    research before tossing out the ridiculous flag.

    As stated earlier, if these type systems were the silver bullet for unemployment, they would have been implemented and retained decades ago.  Why were the WPA and CCC cancelled?

    Parent

    not saying that the proposal is a silver bullet (none / 0) (#69)
    by sj on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 09:15:30 AM EST
    I'm saying that your position on that particular aspect of the proposal is ridiculous.  

    I understand that this is a complex multi-faceted issue.  But the particular facet that you chose to reflect is  clearly made of paste.

    It's ridiculous.

    Parent

    Systems in place already (none / 0) (#41)
    by waldenpond on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:11:59 PM EST
    available for expansion.  Won't happen in the US but it's interesting to speculate.

    You could take existing General Relief programs run thru DSS and expand them as a start.  They put people to work shredding paper, street clean-up, helping shut-in seniors with yard work, wood program for seniors, recycling etc.   That could be expanded to have volunteers for summer programs for kids, parks, street planting (imagine maintaining community gardens and huge planter boxes), property clean-up, hospital volunteers, school volunteers (what teacher wouldn't want a couple of volunteers) etc.

    Social Services run these programs so do Sheriff departments.  Plenty of non-profits in place.  Seems it would just need some money.

    Parent

    Would it be too Naive to suggest a plan (none / 0) (#1)
    by TearDownThisWall on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:13:07 AM EST
    that would give every tax payer a "chunk of change"- say couple thousand or so
    In other words: 200,000,000 tax payers get $3,000 each...
    AND
    they have to spend it within 12 months.

    Wouldnt this jump start the deal??

    Not really (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:21:24 AM EST
    A payroll tax holiday would make sense but income tax cuts are not stimulative - people who can will save.

    We need spending- and only the government is prepared to do that now.

    Parent

    Make it Mandatory that u HAVE TO SPEND (none / 0) (#6)
    by TearDownThisWall on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:32:56 AM EST
    the "government giveaway" $$ or you lose it.
    U can buy appliances, tires, clothes, vacations, go out to dinner...anything.
    But you can not SAVE it...u have to spend it or lose it.

    Parent
    Instead of a gov't stimulus, why not give the (none / 0) (#29)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:09:59 AM EST
    money back to the taxpayers and tell them they have to spend it?  No paying off bills, no savings, it must be spent.  

    Parent
    Or would (none / 0) (#30)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:11:10 AM EST
    that take power out of pols hands and the special interest groups with their hands out?

    Parent
    how would you possibly (none / 0) (#32)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:18:18 AM EST
    enforce such a thing?

    Also, some of the things the government spends money on are things that create jobs, but people don't spend money on.  Like teachers, or roads for example.

    Parent

    The people cannot (none / 0) (#33)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:25:54 AM EST
    be trusted to spend their money responsibly.  The gov't must do it.  Lets try it out.  The gov't can put out a bunch of regulations on what the taxpayers must spend their own money on.  

    As for roads, Bush's stupid highway bill in 2005 helped start us down this road where only the gov't knows how to spend money.  


    Parent

    that's not what I said (none / 0) (#35)
    by CST on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:35:43 AM EST
    how on earth are you gonna enforce those regulations - logistically?  I don't think you've really thought that one out.  It's never been done before, there is no blueprint.  It's not a matter of trust - it's a matter of practicality.

    Not just roads, all infrastructure.  And unless you don't drive, or drink water, or use electricity, or care if a bridge collapses underneath you - then you need that stuff.  Most of it was originally built a long time ago.  And it's falling apart.

    Ironically with your plan of "regulations on spending money" and having the government telling us how to spend our own money - you are essentially saying "only the gov't knows how to spend money".  What I'm saying is different - "only the gov't spends money on certain things" that we all need.

    Parent

    You are right (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by lilburro on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:48:02 PM EST
    enforcing this is unimaginable, and also funny - the government is an untrustworthy monster, but we want it to make absolutely sure no one saves their money.  That sounds more tyrannical to me.

    Plus, if this is the plan, my guess is Walmart's profits go up, and small businesses are still in the hole.

    Parent

    This is all about spending money (none / 0) (#36)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:42:00 AM EST
    to get the economy moving.  Why not force the taxpayers to spend their own money the best way they see fit?  How about new washers, cars, etc?  

    The feds have not even spent the first stimulus yet, how can we trust the gov't to spend our money?  

    Parent

    Wow. Holy Toledo Batman (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by BTAL on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:29:21 PM EST
    Is this really the logic:

    •  The feds are inept at spending.

    •  The feds should be empowered to dictate how private citizens spend their own money because the feds will make better decisions.


    Parent
    right (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 01:37:26 PM EST
    you just recently got over FDR taking your savior's dictates overly-literally, and here come some others talking along the same lines..

    Blake said it much better than I ever could: the vision of Christ that thou dost see, is my vision's greatest enemy.

    Parent

    My entire thread was (none / 0) (#66)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 07:30:13 PM EST
    a snark.  

    Parent
    Is saving (none / 0) (#67)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 07:34:28 PM EST
    really that bad?  

    Parent
    Wouldn't hurt (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:23:25 AM EST
    But I'd rather give 2 million unemployed people jobs for a year or two on infrastructure projects, tutoring kids, whatever they can do.

    Parent
    People need jobs and assurance that (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Coral on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:45:08 AM EST
    they won't be laid off in the near future before they are going to start spending.

    Although my husband and I have kept our jobs & income, so many people around here are unemployed, including one of my grown kids, that we have reduced our spending drastically in the past year. We've also increased the rate at which we're paying off debt, so that if one of us does have a reduction of income or work, our fixed expenses will be as low as possible.

    Rising instead of decreasing or stagnant wages would help increase demand as well.

    Parent

    I like it... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:58:32 AM EST
    if we're gonna go down lets go down partying...somebody call China and see if we can get another 600 billion on the arm....sh*t I'll even promise to blow the 3 large in 12 hours if that'll help.

    Parent
    O'Neill makes the point that we have a true (none / 0) (#4)
    by steviez314 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:25:40 AM EST
    Prisoner's Dilemma.

    If every other company hired, his company would have more demand.  If he hired, he'd help create demand for some other company's products.

    So, every company, by itself, is doing what it rationally should, with the end result being the worst possible one for the economy and all companies as a whole.

    Since I don't expect the Fortune 500 to all get together and agree to each hire 1000 people, the game's referee (the government) must stop the game entirely and become the new player.

    I see no chance of any major new spending though.  I think the best we can hope for is a payroll tax cut or credit for new hires.